>> From WXXI News this is Connections I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made with a landscape photographer named Robert.

Robert grew up in Woodside, California, where he says his family's home overlooked canyons.

Redwood groves and the Santa Cruz Mountains.

He says that beauty inspired his love of the outdoors and the landscapes that have been the center of his work.

In the early 2000, while out working in nature, Robert was bitten by a tick.

After battling debilitating symptoms and navigating a number of misdiagnoses over seven years, he was finally diagnosed with Lyme disease and several other tick borne illnesses.

In sharing his story with the Bay Area Lyme Foundation, Robert said the disease changed his life completely and it all began with a tick bite.

According to the CDC, tick bites and tick borne illnesses are on the rise across the country and especially in the northeast.

Tick bite reporting hit record levels last year and this year, leaders in the Rochester and Finger Lakes areas are keeping an eye on the increasing numbers.

Leaders in Ontario County say those numbers go up every year, and one official has called the issue a public health emergency.

So what can you do and what can communities do to prevent tick borne diseases?

Have you been diagnosed with Lyme or another tick related illness?

This hour we welcome leaders from Ontario County to talk about their concerns there.

But really, these are concerns everywhere across our region.

And I want to thank our guests for making time for us today.

Kate Ott is public health director for Ontario County.

Thank you for making time for us.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> Matthew Hanggi is here.

Communicable disease control coordinator for Ontario County Public Health.

Matthew, welcome.

>> Happy to be part of the conversation.

>> And Doug Merrill is council member at large for Canandaigua City Council.

Thanks for making time for us today.

>> Pleasure to be here.

Thank you.

>> So just kind of zooming out a little bit here.

If you look at some numbers, it is striking in New York State this is from the Department of Health.

Over the last three years, the state has averaged more than 17,500 new cases of Lyme disease each year, with more than 19,000 cases reported in the last full year of data.

In Ontario County, an increase from 33 cases in 2021 to 280 2 in 2024, according to the Ontario County Public Health.

And as of early September, 296 Lyme disease cases have been reported this year.

Case records in 2024 show 54% of all cases came in three municipalities in Victor and Canandaigua and Naples, but to it is a big, big problem.

And Kate, I don't want to overstate.

I don't want people to be scared to go outside.

But I do want you to describe I want you all to describe.

But I'll start with you how you see the issue from the 30,000 foot level, how serious.?

>> Right.

So a very significant issue for Ontario and surrounding counties in the Finger Lakes.

I think we'll go back to let's go back 20 years when we didn't have Lyme here.

when I first started out in public health, we started to see cases 1 or 2 a year, then a handful more.

we tried to get the medical community educated about what types of tests to order.

We investigated every case.

and we just basically watched it march up from, you know, downstate and then across western New York.

And that's where we are today.

I think at this point, if I'm correct, Matt can let me know if I'm not.

We have over 300 cases so far this year.

Not all.

Yeah.

I mean, the data gets cleaned at the end of the year, so it may look a little bit different.

Our final case count once we hit 2026.

But this is a significant increase.

The case definition did change.

in 21.

So I think some of the increase is related to that.

And Matt can probably speak more to that.

But that's not to say that we haven't seen it since that time increased dramatically every year.

>> And so from your perspective as the health director, the public health director for Ontario County, is this an issue that is best combated by more public education?

Do you need more resources?

Is there something that could be done differently?

>> Right.

So we've been doing education to try to raise awareness in the community because that's what public health does, right?

So yeah, and we can always use more money, more funds, more grants to work on any public health program, including Lyme.

I think having a very aware community and a community that is able to have conversations with their health care providers that are meaningful, around Lyme and other tick borne diseases is very, very important.

There are also other strategies that can decrease your tick population.

decrease your rodent infection rate and decrease deer population as well.

So those are all things that are out there on the table for municipalities to consider.

A lot of people don't realize the complexity of the tick life cycle and how that contributes to the infection rate.

>> Can you tell us more about that?

>> Sure.

I'm wondering, can I toss this off to Matt?

All right, Matt.

>> That's why you're here.

>> Matt.

Yeah.

Thank you.

so, yeah, it's absolutely right.

The tick is, you know, there's no magic bullet because The tick lives in a two year cycle with many different hosts and many different reservoirs of the of the bacteria, the pathogenic bacteria.

So, you know, really simplistic terms.

Yeah.

Really simplistic terms.

The you know, it's the white footed mice and rodents that are the where the bacteria come from.

So the ticks like us, they're born innocent and they, they get the bacteria from feeding on mostly mice and small rodents.

And they become infected.

And then those larval ticks grow into nymphal ticks and and then eventually into adults.

But it's the nymphal ticks which are kind of in the middle, the size of a poppy seed that are the ones that we see commonly linked with human human disease.

>> I already had a question from Melissa asking if every tick carries Lyme disease.

>> No, not every tick, but in Ontario County.

So we work with New York State Department of Health, wildlife entomologists, and we've our tick dragging says about 46% have at least one.

So almost one and two.

>> So about half.

>> Okay.

>> All right.

And so when it comes to what ticks are feeding on that, this is a story that I did not know.

I did not know the the sort of the cycle and the generation.

And, you know, your colleague is talking about reducing certain populations, I don't know, do we need more deer hunting?

I mean, like, you know, rodent control.

Is that the, the the path to maybe reducing some of these cases, do you think?

Matt?

>> I think that's one of the things it's certainly multifactorial.

so, you know, you can look at strategies.

There are commercial products out there that can basically inoculate the mice from the Lyme bacteria so that they can't pass it on to the ticks.

and that's done via a feed pellet.

there are really simple DIY things that folks can do at home.

And we actually are going to create a video to do what's called a tick tube.

In simplest terms, you imagine a paper towel roll, you soak cotton balls in permethrin, with an insecticide and let it dry.

Put them in the tubes, put them in your woodpiles the edges of your lots, playgrounds, things like that.

The mice come get them, take them back to their burrows, rub it all over themselves and it kills the ticks in the burrow.

So there's lots of different ways, you know there are deer.

You know, you can talk about deer, you can do lots of things.

So there's many things that can be done at a prescriptive, larger level beyond just public communication.

>> Okay.

Are those things happening in Ontario County >>?

>> That's that's what we're going to start to talk about.

>> Doug Merrill is a council member at large for Canandaigua City Council.

So what's your role here, Doug?

>> my role started almost exactly one year ago.

prior to that, like you, I was pretty innocent about understanding what the situation was in Ontario County.

And so a year ago, I was out meeting folks I was campaigning for, returning to a seat on city council, and I ran into this guy who was raking leaves in his yard.

And I said, I'm running for city council.

is there anything that you would like me to know?

Are there any issues that I should be bringing back to council?

And he said, yeah, what is the city going to do about the overpopulation of deer?

And I said why should we be doing anything about the overpopulation of deer?

And he said, because they are part of the problem that we're seeing with this explosive growth in the incidences of Lyme disease and related tick borne diseases.

And so I said, you know, we we need to get to know each other a little bit better.

I need to understand what this problem is.

Who are you, by the way?

And he said, I met Hank.

I'm with the county health department.

We're tracking these.

The disease incidence.

And there's something that we really need to be thinking about in the way of preparing, educating and preparing our citizens for what's going on.

and so we've we've started working together.

We're partnering very closely.

We've created a presentation that we've given to the Canandaigua City Council, and we're looking at next steps in that partnership.

>> What's one possible step that stands out to you?

>> I think we need to the lowest hanging fruit is education.

I think we need to educate the population about what are the risks?

When are they in a situation?

When they are at risk of being bitten by a tick.

And when you take a look at the demographics, you see that the largest group of of individuals who are susceptible or who are, are victims of this disease are in the 60-year-old and older category and in the city what are most of those people doing?

Many are retired already.

So how is it that they're being exposed to ticks that carry these diseases?

And it's probably gardening.

so I'm not sure that that many people understand that because, for example, the deer population is so large in the city, the deer are coming in in the evening and they're feeding on their gardens, which we all recognize.

>> My hats are there, salads.

>> There?

Absolutely.

Don't try to grow hosta., and they innocently go in and they start gardening.

Not not protecting themselves, not believing that they should be exposed to ticks.

They're thinking, I'm not going to get Lyme disease because I don't hike in the woods anymore.

Right?

Right.

So now we're seeing that they're getting this disease by simply doing things they've always done before without fear.

And that is gardening.

>> No, I think that look, again, I want to say the goal of this program is not to try to convince people never to garden, never to go outside or to be scared.

It's to educate.

And to Doug's point, my son was seven when we were hiking and Turning Point Park down near the river, going through high reeds, and he's laying in bed that night and he said, you know, I got this bump on my head.

I maybe got it from playing basketball.

And I said, I didn't see anything happen.

And I'm running my hand through his scalp.

And he had a tick embedded and tweezed it out of there very carefully, successfully.

And he was fine.

But that shook me up and doesn't mean we stopped hiking.

But the the stereotype that Doug describes, that's my idea of where ticks are from.

They are not from the hostas.

The gardens, and maybe Matt.

That has to change with how we think about this.

>> Absolutely.

And that's one of the things we've kind of I've, we've figured out is that public health, we've done a great job of messaging and educating that, yeah, you're at risk when you're hiking and in the woods and hunting.

But if you're a bad golfer, you're in the rough.

You're over near the water.

if you're a gardener, you're out in the morning and you're out in the evening.

We know that ticks are really susceptible, more susceptible to dryness than they are anything else.

So if you're out in the morning when the leaf litter is really moist, or you're out in the evening, and then leaf litter is really moist, then you're kind of going into the environment of the tick, where if you time your activity in the middle of the day, when it's hot and dry, you can be safer.

so we need to change the paradigm of how we're messaging to people and where you're at risk, like you, you know, I have two sons that are seven and nine.

We, you know, hike fire towers in the Adirondacks.

We do high peaks.

We are mountain biking.

We are outside all the time.

To Doug's point, the second highest risk demographic in Ontario County is males 5 to 9.

>> Wow.

You found any ticks on them?

>> On my own.

Yeah.

Actually, the first time I ever found a tick on him was at one of the local parks where we do our tick dragging, and it was, you know.

Yeah.

So it wasn't embedded.

But you brought up a good point where you did.

You did the right thing.

The best thing you can do is remove the tick as soon as you notice it and as soon as possible.

The reasons for that, you know, the conventional research is that Lyme bacteria is transmitted at least 36 hours after the bite of a tick.

But we're seeing more and more, you know, growth of other pathogens like anaplasmosis, which can be transmitted within 12 hours and tends to be much cases tend to be much more sick.

And, you know, there's other viral things like Powassan, which was first found in western New York.

It can be transmitted within 15 minutes.

>> So does Powassan.

>> It's a it's a virus transmitted by the same tick as the is, you know, the the black legged or deer tick that transmits Lyme disease and Anaplasmosis.

>> and Michael and Penn Yan, Janet and Rochester.

I'll take your phone calls in a second.

We're going to get a lot of feedback on this.

I know, so hang tight for one second here.

I just want to make make it clear and this is, again, a very educational hour for me.

I often think of Lyme disease as that's the tick disease.

But what Matthew is talking about is Anaplasmosis Powassan, there's Rocky Mountain spotted fever.

>> Generally a different tick.

>> But yes, okay.

Babesiosis.

>> Babesiosis, a parasite very similar to malaria.

>> Okay.

and I see hard tick relapsing fever on the list here.

>> We don't generally have that in New York State, but people travel.

So.

>> which is the one where you end up with a meat allergy.

>> So that's alpha-gal and there's been really, you know, lots of stories from Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket.

and that is the the Lone Star tick, which we haven't seen too much evidence of in Ontario County or Western New York based upon tick dragging and anecdotal reports.

But yeah, it can bite from it can cause this delayed allergic reaction to meat.

And it's really hard to diagnose because of the timing of it all.

And it's just not on the radar of clinicians.

>> I mean, it vegan by disease.

And that's not meant to be flippant.

It's incredible that this is a real thing.

>> That was the New York Times.

It was almost the New York Times headline and really, really.

>> I mean, it's so it's not just Lyme, although Lyme is the most common.

Yeah.

And it is something that we all need to be educated about.

Now, your feedback is important here, Michael in Penn Yan.

Go ahead.

Michael, your first up.

>> Yes.

I'm just now since June getting over babesiosis.

That's the other thing that ticks have I had a co-infection of Lyme and babesiosis.

the most important thing is always when you're at your doctor for any checkup, ask for a Lyme test.

I'm shocked that they don't routinely do a Lyme test.

I had to ask.

I've been down here 50 years in rural Yates County, and I've had to ask for Lyme tests.

That should be the first thing.

The second thing, if you have outside cats, that's your tick problem right there, which I have some.

And I pulled ticks off them every day all summer since early spring, they tend to get the little poppy seed size.

They tend to get on the eyelids of the cats because there's moisture there.

Now, this babesiosis is horrible.

I had to have a specific blood test.

You don't get amoxicillin for it.

You get two other two other antibiotics, which worked, but I'm 72, and I've been sick since June.

Only now getting over the brain fog.

And I don't think people know about babesiosis.

they were pretty shocked here in Penn Yan.

and it's it's quite a thing.

a blood test is important.

And again, it's your cats.

Now, the other thing I found a product it's a brand name.

Repel.

It's that plant pathogen.

Yeah.

You know what it is, anyway?

It's a spray, and I have been spraying my bed sheets and my pillowcases and my body.

It's made to be sprayed on your body, and it has a pleasant apple smell.

And it drastically reduced the ticks in the house.

now they've gone away while it was so dry during the drought, we just had an all night rain.

and as fast as that, they will be back.

so this this babesiosis, it is like.

Like the gentleman said, it is a tick borne malaria.

it kills people in Australia.

It kills cattle in Texas.

And it's here on the East coast, and it's definitely in Yates County.

>> Michael, before I let you go, what's your long term prognosis here?

How are you doing?

>> I'm only over the brainfog now.

and also the other thing to that is I'm an old guy.

I'm 72.

I've got severe arthritis, Lyme and babesiosis together.

Create a thing called Lyme arthritis.

My arthritis went over, over the top as far as I could hardly walk, because the Lyme tends to get in your joints.

And with the babesiosis, I was a mess.

And I'm.

I'm better now than medicine works.

My doctor down here in Penn Yan diagnosed it in one day.

He sent my blood to Virginia, the Virginia.

The blood came back.

He called me immediately.

He says, come down to Penn Yan right now.

Your prescriptions are ready and you need to take them right now.

So they were quite concerned.

They were a little taken aback by it, as was I. I've had I've had Lyme before, just regular Lyme because I've got cats and I live down in the boonies, but this babesiosis is a whole new thing that I don't think very many people know about.

>> Well, Michael, I just want to thank you for for listening on Finger Lakes Public Radio, WEOS, and thanks for sharing your story.

Good luck to you.

you know, you heard Michael and a lot of people will pronounce it babeosis the the technical name babesiosis.

but same thing.

And it's a when I'm reading a black legged tick, that's a deer tick.

Is that right, Matthew?

Yeah.

So we have those Michael's experience is cats will bring in ticks.

Is that correct, everyone?

>> Well, yeah, I think any animal can bring in ticks if they're attached.

So they're having a blood meal on your pet.

If they're attached and they fall off because they're engorged, they're not going to reattach to you.

The do the blood meal to either grow or to lay eggs.

So if there are free ranging ticks on your cat when it comes in, then I would say that, yeah, those could possibly be shared.

inside the house.

But if they've been firmly embedded in your pet I don't believe they will reattach.

>> Okay.

And looking at some data here that our colleague Jeremy Moll sent us, here are the numbers of dogs that tested positive for Lyme after being bitten by ticks and Ontario County.

It's 1 in 8 in Monroe County, 1 in 15 Wayne County, 1 in 10 Orleans County, 1 in 15 New York State overall, 1 in 11.

I mean, it's a it's a lot.

But I also don't know and maybe you can help with this.

Kate, before I jump back to the phones, if if a dog getting Lyme or a cat getting Lyme is the same as a person getting Lyme.

>> Dogs can get very sick from Lyme.

my dog had Lyme.

Actually, I think two of them had it.

And the one I know got it in my yard and I live in the middle of the village of Shortsville, right.

So I was not expecting that.

she was not that ill, but dogs can get severely ill from Lyme disease.

and they she was put on an antibiotic and she did.

Well, okay.

>> Anything to add there, Matt?

>> no.

I mean, I think that's that's.

I bet those numbers would be a significant undercount as well, because, you know, dogs can't tell you, you know, I mean, I would never want to be a veterinarian because you don't get any feedback from the patient in terms of what they're feeling and what they're experiencing.

You have to go on symptoms.

we know that cats generally aren't that susceptible to tick borne disease, but they can certainly bring the ticks in.

so, yeah, I mean, certainly protect your pets and actually kind of a side tangent, we've kind of put this survey out there on our tickets and our QR code to try to get more data on how people are protecting themselves, where they're finding ticks, what are they doing about it?

And the number one thing that people are doing to protect themselves is actually trying to protect their pets.

so that was an interesting kind of bit of feedback from the public.

>> Michelle in Rochester next.

Hey, Michelle, go ahead.

>> Michelle, Michelle in Canandaigua, perhaps?

>> Could be.

Yeah, I think it's you.

Go ahead.

Michelle.

>> Okay.

I'll go.

So I live in the city of Canandaigua.

hi.

Everybody from here.

Hello.

I just wanted to throw out there.

Hi.

I just wanted to throw out there with the whole, you know.

Oh, not everybody hikes.

Not everybody gardens.

I got ticks just from mowing my lawn.

And it was not super high.

Three on my boots in one day.

And so I can imagine just walking through your leaves or raking your leaves would also be part of that educational piece, as well as mowing.

but I will throw in there as well.

Part of the I'm right in the middle of the city and part of the educational piece should also be that people need to stop feeding our wildlife.

I have two neighbors within a one block area of my home.

I know that they purposely feed the wildlife.

They give seeds to the squirrels.

>> they corn to the deer, and they come through my lawn to go to their houses, and.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

So again, part of that is a problem.

that should be part of the educational piece.

That's all.

>> Thank you.

Michelle.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

>> I was going to say that's an excellent point.

And that's why these conversations and these partnerships are important because this maybe is not something we would have thought of from the public health perspective.

You know, that people are I didn't know people were feeding animals in their yards.

And that would be a good prevention.

>> I got neighbors who put out bread for the foxes.

>> You know.

Then there's rabies.

That's for another day.

But.

>> well, I mean, there was a deer in Columbia County with rabies today, so deer can carry rabies for sure.

>> Okay.

But in general, you're endorsing Michelle's point.

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Michelle's point.

Do not feed squirrel deer any wildlife from your yard.

>> Right.

That's that is a good prevention method.

>> Okay.

Michelle.

Good note there.

Thank you.

Ariel writes in on watching on YouTube, says this is such an important topic and it couldn't come at a more important time of year.

Parents, if you're going to let your kids jump in leaf piles, please check them for ticks afterwards.

Yes, absolutely.

>> Absolutely.

So my children have raked the leaves into the yard under a swing that we've put in, and they ask me to push them on the swing and they jump off the swing into the leaves.

And if you're going to do that, rake the leaves into the center of the yard, away from the perimeter where the tall grass is kind of minimizes the risk.

So the general there's lots of landscaping techniques you can do on your own home, basically creating a border.

for to mitigate the amount of ticks that come in.

So yeah.

>> Okay.

So a lot of good information and listeners I've got more of your emails in our second half hour.

We'll read more of these and share them with the experts.

You can send your questions.

Comments about I was going to say about Lyme disease.

It's not just Lyme disease.

It's tick borne illnesses.

Understanding our health, understanding ticks, Lyme disease and more.

It's Connections at wxxi.org, Connections at wxxi.org.

If you're watching on YouTube, you can join the chat there.

You can call the program toll free 844295 talk.

It's 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you call from Rochester 2639994.

My guests this hour include Kate Ott, the public health director for Ontario County.

Matthew Hanggi is a communicable disease control coordinator for Ontario County Public Health and Doug Merrill, a council member at large for Canandaigua City Council.

We're right back with your questions on Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Thursday.

On the next Connections, there may be changes coming for your health insurance.

Maybe you got a letter in the mail in September.

We're bringing in the experts to answer questions.

What's changing?

How could it affect you?

If you've got questions, you can submit them and we'll try to get them all in.

Then in our second hour, Eastman is bringing the great Terence Blanchard, the man who scored many of Spike Lee's films, for a concert as part of an inaugural film festival.

We'll talk to Terence Blanchard Thursday.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

All right, here's Lora writing from Ontario County and says, isn't there a big problem with testing for Lyme?

Said, my husband and I have had Lyme at least three times and have been exposed a couple times more in the last nine years.

We live in Victor, lots of deer, chipmunks, et cetera.

each time we've been exposed, doctors dissuade us from getting tested.

As they say, once infected, you are always going to test positive.

Is it true that there is no reliable way to test whether one has a new infection?

If one has been positive in the past?

This is a huge problem, and it seems that in addition to the lack of an effective anti Lyme vaccine for humans, there's a real deficit in adequate diagnostic capability.

Laura and Victor.

>> Absolutely.

There.

There needs to be better testing.

you know, Lyme.

The Lyme bacteria is very interesting because it's different than a lot of the other common bacteria.

Strep, staph, legionella because it's a spiral.

It's what's called a spirochete.

So it's kind of twisted and it's hard to test for it.

When you kill it.

It leaves kind of the cell wall of the bacteria kind of stays in the person's blood and can trigger long lasting effects.

so yeah, there needs to be better testing.

And, you know, she the point is well taken that.

Yeah.

Once generally you test for it, you're test positive for it.

You can have a certain kind of antibody for life.

generally most clinicians are looking for two kinds of antibodies, a short term and a long term.

but yeah, we need better testing for sure.

>> I think it's really important to to have those conversations with your provider.

You need to go when you're when you're diagnosing a tick borne illness, you need to look at the person in front of you, right, and say, okay, we've got a headache, fever, stiff muscles and joints.

And this person just feels lousy.

It's not flu season.

There's no upper respiratory infection going on here.

It's summer or spring.

What are the chances of this person having a tick borne illness?

So we always recommend when we're doing education.

If you're feeling very poorly health wise in the summer, you need to go in and have that conversation with your health care provider.

>> maybe along those lines, this is Bonnie who says, my sister has lived all her adult life near the ocean in South Carolina over 20 years ago.

She was diagnosed with Bell's palsy after a frozen face developed on the right side of her face.

And the condition did not improve.

She went through several diagnostic attempts and treatments, including Botox injections.

Finally, a doctor tested her for Lyme disease.

Not only did she test positive for Lyme, but was positive for two other tick borne illnesses as well.

After so much time, her last option for relief from her facial paralysis is surgery.

I am writing to encourage your listeners not to give up on seeking diagnosis for their symptoms.

Okay another another endorsement.

>> Yeah.

Excellent advice.

Sometimes you have to be persistent, especially when an illness is somewhat new.

So we're like, well, lyme's not new.

You know, it's been here for 20 years, but that's pretty new when you think about other human illnesses.

Right?

So there still needs to be more study.

And people do need to be persistent.

>> Okay.

Anything you want to add there, Doug.

Yeah.

>> Only that you know, when we think about education, we think about first about informing people about how to better protect themselves from being bitten by, by ticks.

But I think part of our education should also be on how to how do we more effectively advocate with our health care providers to get the sort of of testing to get the sort of treatment that would maximize our chances of a successful outcome?

And much too often, I think we become intimidated by our health care providers.

We accept whatever they're going to say without asking questions, without probing any deeper.

And I think we need to realize that this is such a complex disease.

that that often patients will be misdiagnosed and not treated properly.

And so they need to really be a lot more aggressive in advocating for their own health and asking questions and probing the physicians.

I want to ask health care providers.

>> It's a really good point.

And I want to ask Kate, as the public health director, a little bit more about this.

And this is going to sound like I'm running cover for public health, but I'm just going to make an observation.

I know that public trust in institutions is not great right now.

Public trust in public public health post pandemic hasn't always been great.

I view this as a really challenging situation because as you said 20 years ago, you wouldn't really have found Lyme, right?

Right.

And so it's a it's a very recent explosion of a problem.

The diagnosis is not always the same.

It can look like other things.

you may have professionals who have seen less of it.

I don't think anyone is being malicious in the system.

And I don't think Doug was implying that either.

>> No, not.

>> At all.

I think what it means is I think we need to be to give some grace to everyone involved, but to be persistent in advocating, to continue to try to get answers for ourselves.

Because not everyone with certain symptoms is going to have Lyme or tick borne illness.

But if you do, it can be really frustrating if you don't get the right diagnosis.

so again, it sounds like I'm running cover for public health.

I'm just acknowledging how challenging this must be.

>> You can run cover for us any time.

>> That's not my job.

>> No.

>> I am just trying to be human and say that this is not something that's been around for thousands of years.

That's how.

How are we screwing this up?

This is a big challenge, isn't it?

>> It is, it is.

And public perception of public health.

You know, over the course of the last few years is not what it used to be.

I think this speaks really very much to the importance of community relationships and partnerships, because we need to get around tables with community members who are definitely trusted in their communities.

And if we're all speaking the same words, singing the same song it makes us all that much more credible.

and I think really, our only intent here is to have a healthier community.

And the more people we can partner with who are trusted in their communities over having a more healthy community, the better off we're going to be.

>> We have a lot to work through from listeners still, so let me keep going here on YouTube.

In the chat there, Matthew says, can you tell us more about those landscaping techniques that Matthew Hanggi referenced to keep ticks out of the yard?

>> Sure, I'd be happy to provide a PDF.

Maybe we can put it in the show notes afterwards, but that's.

>> A great idea.

>> Yep.

we have posters all around.

We're happy to get them out.

But you know, essentially what you want to do is create a barrier between the tall growth, the trees, the perimeter of your yard and the the center where you spend your time.

You know, when you go through cul de sacs or city parks or, you know, communities where you look at playgrounds, just kind of notice where the playgrounds are put there, kind of often put in the in the corner in the shade.

that, that, you know, kids aren't just on the playground.

They're in the perimeter.

They're in the tall grass there.

As they get closer to those areas that you're putting them more at risk.

so bring those, bring those into the center of the yard where it's sunnier and more dry.

That's a really simple thing.

you know, there are perennials and shrubs that you can bring in that discourage deer and ticks.

you know, there's a lot of invasive species like honeysuckle and barberry that actually are more encouraging for tick habitat.

get rid of those things.

So there's lots of things that can be done.

in addition to, you know, I mentioned the tick tubes and you know, just a perimeter of mulch and things like that.

>> What's the is there a perennial that deer or ticks really hate?

>> I mean, I'm not a I am definitely not an expert in these things.

so we went with the there's a, there's a really great website about native plants.

We kind of put some on our, put some on ours, but the ones that we listed were daffodils, Columbine.

Hyacinth, Iris, bleeding heart and a handful of other ones.

So, okay, we can make this available to anybody that wants it.

>> Yeah, we'll we'll put that PDF in the show notes.

so when you access this podcast, wherever you find your podcasts a great chance to maybe share with your neighbors and change your neighborhood.

as Michelle said earlier, you know, maybe we're not going to feed the squirrels and the deer and the foxes anymore, and maybe we're not going to put the playgrounds right at the edge of the perimeter.

We're going to put we're going to center the playgrounds.

There's a lot of little things getting smarter this our Pat and Geneva listening on Finger Lakes Public Radio.

Hey, Pat, go ahead.

>> Hi.

So I have a comment.

And that is cats do not belong outdoors for a myriad of reasons.

And this is a good one.

If your cats are coming in and out, you're running a risk.

And I have four cats, they're perfectly happy.

They've never been outdoors.

They're perfectly happy in the house.

And I had the question of where would one go to get Pyrethrin?

>> Yeah.

So Dallas just mentioned spring permethrin.

Is that permethrin?

Permethrin.

>> Permethrin.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

so what is that?

And is that something we want to do?

>> It's an insecticide.

you can buy clothes from L.L.Bean.

Rei, name your big brand of outdoor clothing that has it impregnated into it.

And it's great because it's helpful for, you know, deterring mosquitoes as well.

So a lot of the, a lot of the methods that we're talking about Deet, Picard and permethrin, these are all great things to minimize your risk of mosquito bites as well, because the mosquitoes we have, you know, we had a case of West Nile virus recently.

so there are, mosquitoes that are infectious as well.

So a lot of these things will kind of manifold your, your protection.

>> Okay.

good information there.

Thank you.

Pat.

Pat thinks cats shouldn't go outside.

Really?

Ever.

I don't know about that.

Kate.

Is that too far to endorse animals?

You know, we're born outdoors.

I mean, these are species.

I understand.

Domesticated house cats.

>> I think cats kind of go where cats want to go.

in a lot of situations.

And we have also, you know, a lot of feral and stray cats in the community.

I think the take home here is that if you own a cat and it's an indoor outdoor cat, make sure you're getting what you need from your vet.

And the way of insect and tick protection.

and I think that's just always good advice for any pet owner.

Protect your pets as well.

>> Yeah, really good stuff there.

Thank you.

Pat.

Dallas also said that there is a kind of Lyme vaccine makes your blood toxic to the ticks, and they die when they bite you.

>> Well, so there was a Lyme vaccine in 2002.

It was made by GlaxoSmithKline.

They pulled it from the market because of poor demand.

if you and you know, it's not surprising because in New York State and Ontario County, at least in 2002, we had less than ten cases of Lyme disease.

You know, now we have over 300.

So the market is certainly changed.

There is a vaccine from Pfizer, I believe it's called Vla15.

it's in stage three clinical trials right now.

there are vaccines for pets.

So, you know, for dogs at least.

So there's there's promise there.

>> And I would just jump in on that.

So how a vaccine that worked and there wasn't uptake of it because not enough people were interested in it.

And I just feel compelled to jump in with if if you stop using a product, if you stop using a vaccine, manufacturers will make less of it or they'll stop making it completely.

And I just want to throw that out there.

>> Okay.

>> so we'll certainly it's going to be a big story if there's a new vaccine that hits the market.

and that's something to watch there.

But Dallas, thank you for that.

and this is from Ellen, who says, is there any way to get my dog testing for Lyme affordably?

If I take him to the vet, I'm charged $75 for the visit and $60 for the Lyme test.

So $135 each time I test.

That's cost prohibitive.

He was tested in the spring, but I would like him to test again before the winter.

Are there any public health programs available as they have for rabies vaccinations?

>> Wow, that's a great question and something I had not thought about.

No, currently there are no public health programs for Lyme testing in pets.

but I understand how testing can be cost prohibitive.

so the first time I took my dog in to see a new vet, she had never been tested for Lyme.

So it was suggested that she be and she actually had it there on.

Oh, I used effective medication on her.

I guess it was monthly or every three months at that point.

and then I deferred testing after that time because I felt like I had been a responsible pet owner.

I hadn't had been protecting her.

So you may need to just consider what you want your vet to do for your animal.

Like before they do it.

so that everybody's expectations are clear.

And if you're protecting your animal year round, that's the other thing I did.

I didn't just do protection for the season.

I did it year round.

And if you do that, it would seem much less likely that your pet would get Lyme from a tick.

>> Okay.

thank you, Ellen, for that.

Let me get Tim and Fairport and Chris and Spencerport Tim first.

Hey, Tim.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

>> Are you there?

Tim?

Oh, we lost Tim.

It dropped Tim.

Call us back.

He's got a comment about tick borne disease.

Let's go to Chris in Spencerport next.

Hey, Chris.

Go ahead.

>> I have more of a question.

Kind of a statement.

my wife takes our large collie hiking in Northampton Park, and he's as furry as a sheep, and he's protected with Frontline plus for dogs.

He does not come home with ticks.

And he does come home with burrs.

And she said the trails are wide.

And then also he patrols our giant yard.

And I get the impression there are no ticks here.

And some of it, I wonder, is we have a home orchard and I'm spraying pesticides.

Probably starting middle of the summer.

So just my observation is our dog doesn't get ticks and it seems like we don't have them in our yard.

And I'll take my your comments offline.

>> Yeah Chris thank you.

There's no Burr vaccine.

That dog is always going to get the burrs.

However it is an interesting observation about the ticks.

and the first question that Chris brought up was is that the front line that the dog is medicated with?

I don't know, we don't have veterinarians in the studio.

I will say the combination of the front line, the pesticides that you use at home for your orchard, it's a pretty good guess that that's where we're going.

What do you.

>> Think, Kate?

Sorry.

>> Go ahead.

No, no, you go right ahead.

>> She also mentioned a really kind of an indicator which talked about the trails being really wide.

So the important thing to know about ticks is they don't run, they don't jump, they don't fly, they don't fall out of trees.

They're simply waiting on the edge of the grass, waiting for you to brush by.

And they're going to crawl on.

So if you're not brushing up against the tall grass and you know, I, I acknowledge that it can be short grass as well.

But, you know, you're lowering your risk.

>> Okay, Kate, anything to add there?

>> Yeah.

No, I was just going to say they they quest ticks quest.

So they get on the end of pieces of grass and they, they, they wait until they get.

I think it's the kind of is it the CO2 that they sense when.

>> They, somebody.

>> Walks by.

And actually the probably just the presence of a warm, warm blooded individual there.

And then they just they, they're looking for you.

>> I mean, this is why you got to be watching on YouTube.

You can't just be listening because Kate was making this gesture.

Is that the tick gesture?

>> That's the the questing.

>> Gesture.

Yeah.

I did not know that they don't jump.

no.

That how they adhere to you.

That's that is really interesting.

get back to the phones in just a second.

Jeff wanted to ask and said, you keep talking about Lyme disease.

Are you talking about Lyme or chronic Lyme?

And is there a difference?

>> Oh, my.

>> oh, Doug.

>> That.

>> Touched a nerve over there.

Okay, okay.

>> So we're talking about Lyme acute Lyme disease.

And if you develop symptoms of Lyme, whether or not you've had a tick and you get tested, you're positive, you go on antibiotics and 99.9% of the time you are better.

You move on.

folks with maybe delayed treatment for whatever reason.

And I think this was probably more common years ago because providers weren't really sure what they were looking for.

The testing was worse than it is now, and people just went for a long time.

My dad had Lyme, lived in Massachusetts.

His neighbor had had Lyme.

My dad did not have a bull's eye rash, and it took them like six weeks to diagnose him.

He was so sick by the time they actually ordered the test.

so I think people with a a significant lag in treatment, they're the ones who may go on to develop bells palsy or heart block and potentially will struggle with symptoms that could be related to Lyme down the road many years later.

Matt talked about the spirochete.

So another organism that comes to mind when we talk about the shape of a bacteria, that corkscrew shape is syphilis.

All right.

And totally different topic.

But syphilis can also hang out in your body and it can cause symptoms.

Or it can give you damage at the time that will affect you later on.

So a lot more study needs to be done about chronic Lyme.

and right now we're talking about acute Lyme.

>> Okay.

Is this anything you want to add there Matthew.

Is this a is this a polarizing subject?

>> It's very polarizing.

The CDC is very the CDC is very the old CDC is very very careful about their words.

They they use a treatment or a term called post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome.

Ptlds.

And it it kind of encapsulates a constellation of symptoms for people who have had treatment, who still have lingering symptoms of brain fog, fatigue, weakness.

you know, it goes on and on.

And, you know, I think the important thing to, to state is I think those people are really suffering and their symptoms are real.

Whether their symptoms are from, you know, the immunologic response, their body's just over, over responding to the treatment or potentially re-infection with another tick borne disease.

we we need better testing.

We need better understanding.

We need more research.

I was just reading a study from Northwestern and Johns Hopkins published in April.

So it's pretty new talking about the role that the cell wall of the bacteria, the cell walls made of peptidoglycan.

It's a anyway when you when you kill the bacteria, it kind of bursts open and it can linger there.

And we are seeing more a lot of these people with lingering symptoms for long periods of time are reacting to the presence of this kind of destroyed cell wall.

So it's not, you know, for a lot of people, it's not a sort of the same infection that's sort of it's a tough thing to discuss.

>> Okay.

>> Your body's kind of continued reaction to it.

>> All right.

Jeff, thank you for that.

Let me get Tim in Fairport again and try it again.

Hey, Tim.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

Can you hear me now?

Yep.

Okay, great.

so this is not related to Lyme.

Even though I've had and been treated successfully for Lyme once, but in, late June of this year, I became very ill with flu like symptoms, which led me eventually to a hospital stay of two weeks.

The first nine days of which they were trying to figure out what I had.

And I ended up having something called Powassan virus, which is a tick borne illness.

That's I think I had a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of getting it.

but left me with meningoencephalitis, which I'm still recovering from.

So there are certainly things out there besides Lyme that are that are doing a number when it comes to tick bites.

and this one is not that well known, but I have a feeling it's going to become better known soon, unfortunately.

>> How are you doing now?

>> I'm doing much better this three months in.

Now, they say 3 to 6 months, or maybe even longer with what I have.

But you know, my my.

I'm lucky.

I'm very lucky.

15% of people die from it.

And half of the people who don't die usually get worse.

And the other half usually will recover to somewhere up to 100%.

>> Wow.

Wow.

Tim, I want to thank you for the phone call, because that echoes the point that Matthew Hanggi was making at the outset of this program, which is when we talk about tick borne illness, we are going to talk a lot about Lyme.

It's the most common, but babesiosis.

You heard an earlier caller who's been struggling with babesiosis call.

Now you hear Tim calling to talk about Powassan and then Powassan related encephalitis.

very serious stuff here.

Alpha-gal is something that gets a lot of press because of how it creates a meat allergy.

We don't really see that around here.

I don't know that that means we couldn't see it around here.

Who knows?

>> Absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence.

You know.

>> Evidence of absence.

Right.

>> So so, Tim, thank you.

But Powassan encephalitis and anything you want to add there Matthew Hanggi to his experience.

>> No.

Tim.

thank you for sharing that.

That's I remember hearing about that, about that situation.

And, you know, I'm sorry that that happened to you.

but thank you for sharing your story.

>> Yeah, it's important because, again, it may not be the most common, but it can happen.

And that's why we all have to be better educated.

So as we get ready to wrap here, Doug Merrill Council member at large for Canandaigua City Council, you mentioned education is one big part of this.

And hopefully programs like this help anything else that you're looking at that that you think from your perspective in government can be done here about this?

>> Well, I would get back to the original conversation that started all of of this interest that I have, and that is the deer population.

And I think at some point we're going to have to face up to the fact that we have a large a very large overpopulation of deer in our county and that they are involved in this whole disease sequence.

And at some point, we're going to have to to face up to that fact and figure out as a community how we're going to address that, because it's not only Lyme disease and other tick borne diseases that the deer bring, but they're destroying our forests.

They're involved in increasing numbers of collisions with cars.

They are decimating.

>> 1170 over the last ten years in Ontario County.

Wow.

Related to deer?

>> Yeah.

>> Just related to deer.

Almost a thousand a year.

Is that the number?

>> Almost 1817.

>> And that's certainly underreported, because I think most people who have collisions, if they're not injuries or serious damage to the car, they just kind of take off on their own without reporting it.

So I think we're going to have to return to a discussion of deer as well.

>> But one of our colleagues says, well, it's been nice.

I'm never leaving my house now.

No, that's not the.

>> Conclusion we want here.

>> but better educated helps.

I mean, I wear thicker socks when I hike now, and I'm more likely to check for ticks now myself.

And my kids.

And so final thoughts from you, Kate.

What do you want to leave with listeners?

>> you know, primary prevention, which are all those things using some Deet, tucking your, your pants into your socks, wearing light colored clothing, staying on the trails, all of those things.

But I would also say we're really excited about the prospect of working with the city of Canandaigua.

Public health.

Does collaboration very well.

We love to get people together.

We love to get opinions, we love to talk.

And I think going to the community and saying, listen, this is the problem, this these are the disease rates.

This is the number of deer we have here.

let's sit down and talk about what the community would like to do about it.

I think that's a very good place to start.

Get some consensus, and we'd love to help with that process.

>> Joel says.

We're going to have to face the fact that climate change is going to continue making parasites worse.

It's true we haven't mentioned climate change this hour, but that is certainly part of it.

And as the music plays here, you got about 25 seconds there.

Matthew Hanggi what do you want to leave with listeners here?

>> Well, absolutely.

Climate change plays a role.

Migratory bird patterns bring different ticks and different diseases.

and, you know, I think that there's a there's a whole suite of, of ingredients that we can use to kind of combat this.

And people just need to reach out to their local, local leaders.

>> Be better educated.

But, Chris, that doesn't mean never leave the house.

No way.

>> Man.

>> We got to leave the house.

Matthew Hanggi and Kate Ott from Ontario County Public Health.

Thank you for your expertise this hour.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you and Doug Merrill Council Member at large for Canandaigua City Council.

How about that meeting constituents and following up still possible.

>> It's still.

There you go.

>> Using data to change people's.

>> There you go.

Thank you Doug.

Thank you.

>> Great having all of you listeners.

Thanks for all the great feedback these two hours today.

We are back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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