From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in 1979, when a Republican named Charles Willis was elected to Monroe County Family Court.

Might have seemed like not very big of an event at the time, but for nearly 40 years, Willis was the only person of color elected to the county bench.

That changed in 2018, when voters elected Fatimah Read.

And by the way, she was the first woman of color ever elected to the county bench.

Throughout that campaign, Reed said that it was not an election, only about race, but she said that the history shouldn't be ignored and representation matters.

When we sat down with judge Reed after her election in 2018, she told us that her election came with a sense of responsibility and weight.

And now, seven years later, there is an ascendant cultural movement that says enough about identity.

There's too much focus on race or gender or sexual identity.

Choose candidates.

Choose leaders, they say, based on merit alone, no matter who that person is.

I've been clear on this program.

I think we need to separate that cultural critique into two groups.

The first is the group that says they only care about hiring the best.

They're colorblind, and then they hire Pete Hegseth to run the largest military in the history of the world.

And they hire Laura Trump to be the new weekend anchor at Fox News.

And they have given away the game.

There is a second group, though, including people like the author Thomas Chatterton Williams, who do think that the last decade leaned too heavily on identity in all corners of American life.

They don't want to return to 1950, but they think, of course, correction is necessary, and so do I.

Under assault and with a countercultural force in the halls of power.

There are questions about what comes next.

The Seventh Judicial District has its own DIY framework, and leaders in the courts have worked on various initiatives to try to create a system that is more representative of the community it serves.

This hour, we're talking about those efforts, particularly with the backdrop of what's happening in Washington and in the broader culture.

And we'll tell you about some events on the calendar, including a film event coming up at the little theater.

Let me welcome my guests.

And it's an honor to have the Honorable Fatimah Reed back with us.

Judge Reed is what the Monroe County Family Court.

It is nice to see you back here.

Thank you for being here.

And welcome to the Honorable Vann White.

I don't know that I've gotten to say that it's been a while.

You have?

Rochester city court judge.

Well, judges aren't on this program all that often.

I have to say.

Judge.

Welcome back.

Thank you for being back.

Andre Washington is treasurer of the Rochester Black Bar Association.

Thank you for making time for the program as well.

I'm excited to be here.

The event, the first event we're talking about, by the way, is coming up.

Oh my goodness.

Next Tuesdays, that's six days away.

February 18th Tuesday.

that is, starting at 545 at the Little Theater.

It's a free community screening of Greenwood Is Still Burning.

That's a documentary recounting the 1921 Tulsa race massacre and the impact on Black Wall Street.

There will be a panel of vendors.

There often is at the little, and they would love to see you at the little again.

That's February the 18th coming up and then eight days later, February 26th.

event just after noontime at the Hall of Justice.

Judge Reed, what's that event all about?

and that event, this year's theme for Black History Month is African-American and labor and Labor.

and so, at that event, which is what we combine, our flagship event, our last event culminating a whole month of very robust, engaging educational programs, at the Hall of Justice.

And so we're going to have a dynamic, panel of labor leaders, in our community, African-American, labor leaders who will share some history with us in terms of, labor organization and then where, these organizations see, in the backdrop of, what is going on nationally, where they see, the labor movement in the African-American community going.

And I know the event next Tuesday is co-sponsored by the Rochester Black Bar Association.

Is that right?

That is correct.

Very excited to to be a part of this with the Hall of Justice.

So those are the events on the calendar.

We'll have information in our show notes if listeners want to check out those events.

as part of Black History Month, let me just pull back a little and I want to start with judge Reed and I, you know, I went back and I listened to our conversation and it felt a little bit like it was an artifact from a different world.

conversations about representation.

It felt a little bit more rote and placid, like it was a logical thing to discuss as opposed to something inherently incendiary.

How do you what do you make of this current moment?

Judge?

Well, I can say this.

I can talk about, what the New York state court system, is doing and what the Seventh Judicial District in particular is doing.

what some of our community may not know that, are then, chief judge of the New York state courts, she commissioned a report, back in 2020, in light of a lot of, unrest, to see where our courts were in terms of access to justice and equal justice.

And if our courts really were representative of the community that we, we served, and former, former, attorney with, with our then president Barack Obama, Jay Johnson, he commissioned that report.

He interviewed, many, many employees from upstate to downstate to New York City to learn what the state of are.

We took an inventory of what is the state of our court system.

Are we truly, inclusive?

Are we truly, making sure that we had access to justice and equal justice for all?

and so after that report, was concluded, and there were 13 recommendations, proffered by, Dr. Johnson.

we saw that there was much work that needed to be done in our court systems.

and, and so with that, our, our now chief judge, Rowan Wilson, our, deputy chief judge of Access to Justice and Equal Justice, Edwina Richardson.

they've all sort of, left it to the districts to figure out how do we implement those recommendations that were in the Johnson report, our equal justice report?

and then how do we make our court system and, truly welcoming to all, and not some, we've had some, you know, quite, we've had some interesting things that have happened within, our, court systems.

we've certainly had issues related to race, in our court systems.

And so, for the seventh Judicial District, we organized a committee called Embracing Our Community, in which I lead, as the, two years ago are, our administrative judge, Bill Taylor, appointed me to be the district wide Courtney Judge for diversity, equity and inclusion.

I'm the only one in New York state, avid and so we were hoping, more districts would, be fearless and appoint judges to, to take a systematic approach in how we're dealing with access to justice and equal justice in light of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Right now, just the letters Dei might spark a pretty passionate response, given what's happening in the culture and in politics.

I know there may be some limitations to what you can do.

I'm used to interviewing retired judges who can speak more freely.

but I so I want to say to our guests, I'm grateful that they're here.

And I understand that there may be some limitations and we respect that.

So, you know, put a break on anything that you can't feel like places you can't go.

But I'll ask you, judge Reed, I mean, right now, you look around and you say you feel proud of the work that feels bold and important.

And many people in the halls of power are saying, no, this work is not necessary.

This work is leading us down the road of obsessing about race, that, that we need to find, a different path that that doesn't talk so much about this, that makes it feel like it's obsessive in their culture.

What do you think of that?

Well, what I say is, I think there is too much, but I think that, we have to think more broadly.

It's not only about race.

There's, you know, women, who should have access to certain tables.

there are, there are people with disabilities, who we should, make sure that they have, access.

there are, people who are non-English speakers who we should also make sure that we have access and equal justice.

and so that's what I think.

I think that, some people want to center the narrative on race.

And, to be quite truthful, they want to center that on people that look like me or African-Americans and, and want to talk about whether we're qualified.

And I want to assure you, anyone, including myself, who has attained certain things, like me becoming the first African American woman to be elected, countywide.

I am very proud, of of that title.

I am very I was very qualified to run and to sit on the bench.

and so while I know the narrative may be centered on race, it's much more Dei is much more than race and much more than giving African-Americans, an opportunity.

Judge White, is there, some general comments from you before we kind of get a little bit more granular here?

you've been in politics in your career, and now you're on the bench.

What do you make of this political moment?

Well, for context, as you may recall, even on a number of occasions in this very, studio, we talked about diversity in the context of my legal practice.

for 30 years, I practiced in the area of civil rights litigation.

So I've seen some of the stuff on and off the bench.

I've seen discrimination and the lack of diversity or a lack of tolerance, not only in the courtroom, but also in the boardroom.

and so for me, this conversation about should we talk about diversity and inclusion and equity, is a nonstarter.

I, I think we, we we have to talk about that.

But more importantly than talking about I think we have to do stuff about it.

Let me say it by way of example, piggyback on what judge Reed just said.

there's a judge in Albany.

Her name is Andre Ackerman, I believe her name is.

And she started this program called UConn.

It's basically a mentoring court.

But why she started that program is and she talks openly about it, her background not only as a woman, but as a person who came up as a child in a very difficult, challenging environment prompted her to create a mentoring court, which she got a lot of pushback for it.

And the reason behind the pushback relates to the lack of understanding of the importance of diversity.

That court, now exists in Albany, it exists in Buffalo.

And, we're right on the, verge of starting one here in Rochester.

My point being, as judge Reed said, this is more than just about diversity in terms of the color of your skin.

It's about diversity of experience.

you know, I think judge Reed, has done a good job, a very good job at creating a committee that is inclusive.

And so I don't think she just looks at me as a black man.

I think she looks at me as a former civil rights lawyer.

I think she looked at me and I don't think many people can avoid it.

Looks at me as someone who had some experience on the school board right?

Those experiences, like Judge Ackerman's experiences, my experience with my father as an African American man, very much drives how I look at other African American men in the courtroom.

I'll be honest with you.

It and I would be lying to anybody to suggest otherwise so that diversity enhances everyone's experience.

and so, but but again, it doesn't have to be an acronym.

It doesn't have to be an initiative.

It just should happen.

And, and and I'm on the bench and I'm not pushing programs for black men or women.

I'm doing things naturally that come from my experiences.

So, you know, I'll call out his name.

Donald Trump has experiences that I do not have.

Right.

his cabinet has experiences that that I don't have.

Diversity is about ensuring that the American experience is part of the government experience.

And so it's not just an educational experience that people get when they put me on the bench.

But but let me let me just follow this point before I turn to your colleague across the table here.

Yeah.

I think part of what we are seeing is in bad faith.

And there's part I think that they may have some genuine questions and that I think are worth exploring.

Here's the bad faith part that I think is dangerous.

I want to read a quote from 13 months ago.

This is January 2024, and listeners who don't know Charlie Kirk, he is one of the most culturally influential figures in the young Republican and conservative movement.

He said on his show, quote, if I see a black pilot, I'm going to be like, boy, I hope he's qualified.

The way that lands with me is it is obviously racist.

And it it implies that if I see a white pilot, no problem.

I'm sure he's qualified.

If I see anybody else, I just assume that they got the job and some kind of quota there that maybe they're qualified, but also maybe not.

The default is the dudes who look like him, and I think that's intentional.

So that's why I think we should differentiate.

You know, some of when we talk about merit and we talk about, you know, understanding your experience, I don't look it I, I'm not perfect.

I don't look at Van White and think, well, Van White is, you know, was selected to be a candidate because of his identity.

If you didn't have the merit.

I never assume that the merit is in there, but there's a growing number of people who are framing it as black means a diversity higher or Dei higher automatically.

Yeah, but Evan, can I say for black man, I don't know about Fatima, I don't, but the Black Bar Association, members of the Black Bar Association, that's nothing new that that is nothing.

I mean, sure, you are having this mind blowing experience.

Oh, my God, they think of you is.

That's how I talk about my father.

My mother.

That's how we were raised.

We were raised to understand that we had to be one up better than anybody else.

We've heard that phrase.

It's so I'm I'm qualified.

Fordham's qualified.

We're all qualified to have these jobs.

Many people.

No offense.

I love you, Evan, but it's a mind blowing experience.

And, oh, my gosh, they don't think you're qualified.

We've been hearing this for years and we fight against that every day.

So, for you and others.

And you're not the only person I've heard say that it's this new dialog.

Oh my gosh, there's thinking that we're less than, you know, and I'm not saying that's right.

It's wrong.

But I've been hearing that every day as a child, as a young man, as a lawyer, as a father.

It doesn't frame my mindset because I've been hearing it every day.

Now I, I take your point.

I think what I really want to make sure I'm emphasizing is how proudly overt this sentiment sentiment is.

Maybe in contrast to a decade ago and prior.

It is certainly more ascendant and proud, and I think that's perhaps a reflection of, well, I don't want to I don't want to speak too much, judge.

Also, you don't seem like a different guy on the bench.

I always enjoy talking to you.

I you and that's that's important.

You know, I got to be the same guy.

Otherwise the people who elected me to have a diverse bench.

If I'm somebody else.

And, you know, I'll be honest, I've gotten a little bit of trouble over being the same guy.

There's an adjustment you have to make, but we cannot sacrifice who we are otherwise.

Jay Johnson's report is meaningless.

I have to be consistent with all the rules that guide what we do as judges.

But I have to be that Van White, because otherwise we don't have a diverse bench.

let me ask Andre Washington, treasurer of the Rochester Black Bar Association.

So what do you make of this current political and cultural moment?

That is a very open ended question.

What do I make of it?

I agree with you.

let me go backwards a little bit.

What Judge White just said, I've been told since I was, I can remember I have to be ten times better.

Not just one up, ten times better.

And so I work very hard.

And I've always worked very hard.

And it's kind of become a habit of practice just to see what everyone else is doing and to surpass that as many times over as I can.

So what I have spent a lot of time thinking about in these last couple of years, leading up to this moment, is actually what is diversity other than just representation.

Because what I realize is the effort that I put into becoming who I am, the lawyer, the musician that I am today is a measurement of all the hurdles that I had to overcome.

And I noticed that that part of the conversation actually was not, emphasized enough over a long period of time.

So actually, in law school, I spent about two years doing a lot of research on on the case law and just on the social science research.

And I, I decided that the diversity, the talk about diversity was, in fact limited because it only I didn't it only talked about the differences between people to, to add more diversity in women or disability.

But what it omitted to talk about was why that diversity was important, not only because representation, but perhaps that diversity represented, a greater effort that that particular person had to put in to becoming who they are.

Right.

the fact that if you studied for the Lsat in the neighborhood, that is, you know, in the city, and I'm thinking about myself in, in Chicago, right, where the library doesn't have the same kind of resources that the library of someone who's studying for the Lsat and a white neighborhood is.

And that's just a small example where you have these daily, these daily experiences that people that come from different communities have to face.

And when you don't look at those daily experiences and calcul them as to understanding how did they get from point A to point B, you're missing, actually a really critical element of meritocracy.

Well, I remember a conversation 5 or 6 years ago about representation in the sciences, and I'm thinking your comments, Andre, are making me recall some of the remarks on that program in which one of our guests said, there's an irony that people like the Charlie Kirks might say, well, there's a black pilot or here's a scientist, and I hope they're qualified as opposed to realizing that the the idea is you don't have a lot of room to fail.

You don't have a lot of room to misstep, because the assumption from a lot of the people in power is that you may not be qualified to begin with.

So you've got to be you got to be better, and you have to overachieve almost.

And and instead, the public is seeing people in positions of authority, people of color and thinking, well, I don't know if they're qualified as opposed to realizing what you're describing, which is being taught from a young age.

You're going to have to overperform if you want to get where you want to go.

Exactly.

And it's also looking at what is the definition of the qualification in the first place.

You brought up yourself PDX that was appointed to as the Secretary of Defense.

Yeah.

According to the qualifications that President Trump laid out, he in fact is the most qualified per Donald Trump's stated qualifications, which is loyalty to him.

So what we have to look at is when we say what is merited, the definition of merit is really it bakes in all of these things already.

They bake in race, they bake in bias, they bake in loyalty to Trump or whatever the, the the determination or I hope he's qualified is I hope he can do the job is really what the focus should be on.

Because Pete says is qualified, per Donald Trump, because he's loyal to Trump.

But can he do the job?

Those are two different questions.

And so when you have the diversity debate that is just at a high level, not digging into what what is this person capable of doing?

you're ignoring all of these different ways that you can actually assess, individual's capabilities.

We're talking to a panel about a series of events coming up, as related to Black History Month and some efforts, in the seventh Judicial District, that is aimed at improving representation, improving services and community outreach and all the different ways that our guests are talking about.

And listeners, if you want to weigh in, you know how to find us.

It's connections at York.

If you've got a question or comment connections at npr.org, you can jump in the chat on the YouTube page Sky news.

Hello, if you're watching on there, or you can call the program toll free 844295 talk.

It is 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you call from Rochester 2639994 judge Reed I also want to give you some space if you wanted to respond to some of whether it was to Charlie Kirk comments or, or just the notion of, of merit in general that we've been talking about.

Well, I just wanted to, share, experience like, what judge?

white.

what judge white sort of, stated and as you know, when I was running, I also, talked about that not only was I an immigrant, I came to this country.

I had to learn, how to speak English.

but then also a few years after I arrive, I ended up in foster care.

So I became, a word, of the state, of California.

and so I had certain experiences as an immigrant, as a foster child, as somebody who was a runaway, who was homeless, who lived on the streets.

and so one of the things and so why representation, matters.

And so one of the things that, as a former foster child, as you will, that I wanted to make sure is that the voice of foster kids are also heard.

we have a thing in family court called, family court called permanency hearings.

and I found when I first got on the bench, foster kids were not participating in permitting hearings.

They get to have a voice in what happens where their case, whether they go home, whether they stay in foster care, whether, they have a goal of, if they're 16 and over, eventually going to live on their own.

and so because of my own experience, I said, you know what?

We need to start a program, where we can have foster kids come to the court, meet family court judges, tour the court, get a sense of what happens in the court and be able to participate and have a voice in what happens with them in their future.

And so, because of my own experience, I thought it was important to start this program.

and there's not a lot of judges who are on the bench who are former foster kids, who sit on the family court bench.

There's not a lot in New York State, and I guarantee there's not a lot of across the United States.

And so, because of my experience, I said, I want to start this program and we're going into our third year, this year, in which foster kids get to come to the courthouse, get to meet the family court judges, they get to tour, and they get to participate in a mock permanency hearing so they understand what their rights are.

They understand that they can, have the state in their future.

So these are the types of things when we're talking about representation, or we're talking about access to justice and equal justice.

And, you know, we might call me a D, judge, but really, what I'm focusing on is access to justice and equal justice.

And so that's why to me, it's important.

And that's why, my representation was very important in family court and, getting to the bench because I'm able to, I'm able to share experiences, and, you know, push for things based on what I've been through.

The the story on foster care is pretty remarkable because I think it really illustrates and maybe it helps me articulate something I've been thinking about with this, because I'm reading all of the national debate again, I try to read the good faith stuff and avoid the bad faith stuff, and there's a lot of both.

but I don't hear you saying, look, my colleagues who haven't been through foster care are malicious or are, you know, excluding because they don't care.

It's because absent that experience, it just might not be on the radar.

Correct.

And you can have a group of really good, hard working people.

But if all of the experiences and life and like backgrounds are the same, that there is just naturally components that don't necessarily get included.

Again, not out of malice, but that all of a sudden it's not represented correct?

Is that absolutely right?

Absolutely, absolutely.

I agree with you on that.

That's what I was trying to say about.

I don't want to get into all the details, but Judge Ackerman, who has spoken about her background, has, was brought up in a childhood, youthful experience that I think was very difficult and challenging, as she describes it.

And she created that court because she didn't want litigants to go into an environment without some support, that mentoring court.

If I can just add one other piece to this, this conversation about whether you're a diverse person, and whether you're qualified or not, and whether we should have these initiatives.

Here's another reason to have them, to the extent that people don't have, in their experience, an African-American, a Latino, a gay person, an Asian person, someone who's been through foster care.

They don't have that experience.

They may, in fact, buy into the narrative that those folks are not qualified.

But the reason why you have a diverse bench, a diverse corporate, board, a diverse, employment, application process and hire a diverse employees is you then expose those naive or unexposed people to people who are qualified.

So how long you been on the bench?

About six years now.

Six years now.

The benefit not only to the people who are before her, the children that are before, but to the people who now can see a person who is an immigrant, who is a mom, who is, a judge who is qualified and capable.

Now they are educated.

And these narratives that they hear from these folks that don't have a clue are now, well, oh, wait a second, van.

Wait, he's African-American man, so he probably is not qualified or Andre, he's probably not a qualified lawyer.

Now they get to see over time and time again how diversity is meaningful because it exposes people to qualified, capable professionals that that's the other reason why we must do this, because it gives America.

People often say America is this melting pot.

No, we're not a melting pot.

We're stew.

We got carrots.

We got, potatoes.

Enough is melting.

We need to have those distinct flavors in there so people can see.

And so when they see a diverse bench, they get the flavor of America.

All right, let me grab a phone call.

I think this is justice in Rochester.

go ahead.

Hey, everybody.

yeah, I just want to say, I don't know if this point was made, but if I, I just wanted the first point I want to make is that many things to be true at the same time.

And I think that's really, really important when talking about these, because on one end up is much about anything or too much of anything is not right.

And so as a person that has been on the front lines of this work constantly, always having my mind wrapped around race absolutely can be traumatic, right?

It can cause mental health issues, all sorts of things.

Right?

Because the world is is so much bigger than race.

The world is beautiful, the road is colorful, it's full of so many different things.

And so if you're navigating like always consistently engulfed in race, right?

Whether it be because you don't feel safe because of your identity or whatever, it can cause severe mental health issues.

I so that's the first point I want to make.

And then the second point I want to make is if folks want to talk about getting rid of me, I well, then we also have to talk about dismantling the racial hierarchy system that is society, this country, and damn near the entire world.

My language is structured around, right?

Whether it be the housing market, whether it be right, the free labor that was extracted from black folk, right during, slavery.

Right.

Race has always been at the foundation of how this country functions.

So if you want to get rid of the, Well, then we got to get rid of the black and white, right?

And all of these different racial components that we all know are manmade and are of the natural world.

The race ideology was created by those in power, right, to extract land, labor, and to push whatever, you know, agenda that they had.

so that's the first that's the second thing I want to say.

And, and the third thing that I want to say is that so to then say that, like those who are most impacted by the racial hierarchy, should you know, stop talking about it so much or, that it should just be totally removed is just preposterous.

If you're not going to get at the root of the issue, then what you're doing is you're just putting a Band-Aid on the problem and never really addressing the inequities and the injustice that people on the other end of the racial hierarchy, meaning black, brown, marginalized folks are experiencing every single day.

I think that that is missing from the conversation.

Get rid of the racial hierarchy that this country benefits so much from justice.

Thank you for the phone call.

Go around the table.

Andre, do you want to start?

What do you make?

Oh thank you.

I was going to ask if I could respond.

Yeah, absolutely.

the first thing is, I'm at justice.

Thank you.

because you open the door to something else that I wanted to say, which was a part of the conversation about diversity focuses only on some, non, I guess non blame shifting kinds of conversations.

while representation in diversity is important and system design is just re talked about in what the perspective that you bring to the court, perhaps fills in gaps where others have blind spots.

And even you said, you know, what was interesting about that comment was that she didn't say that any of the other judges were, malicious.

I'm not about to say that I don't I don't believe that is with respect to Judge Reid's colleagues.

However, what the caller just brought up is the reason this conversation even started in the first place, in 1970.

I can't remember, in Regents feedback when the whole diversity rationale bill was was come up with was because there we were in, a part of American history when we were trying to dismantle deliberate structures that put up barriers to black people owning property, going to school, in achieving any kind of, you know, pursuit of happiness, in the country.

And when the, when the Supreme Court had this case using the word diverse, it was actually a cop out because they didn't they they there was this fear of actually naming the thing, saying the thing that actually happened wrong was wrong was done.

And these policies, affirmative action in particular, in that case, was required to undo that wrong.

Right.

And so if you if you actually embrace or acknowledge that some type of remedy, that you're going to pursue a certain kind of framing of how are you going to pursue it, you are saying someone did something wrong, right?

And so that's what that's what the colleges, open the door up to.

And I wanted to I wanted to say that that, the I think what added to the frustration, you know, divestment in public education have all these folks that, actually have no, like, literally no idea, about America's history, the deliberately so and, and we have to actually talk about that.

And I think that's where you get your, your power toward what the correct remedy is.

We've been fighting.

It starts with this diversity part.

I also think that what what just this brought up thinking about race too much closer mental health issues that just that that just from I mean, it's it's it's true in that, what was it?

James Baldwin you know, I'm in rage all the time because I'm a black man in America, and I know what's going on.

Judge Reed, you want to add to that?

I mean, Andre hit, the point that I wanted to get to, I just wanted to take a little detour.

What?

Justice mentioned in terms of, the mental, the mental health capacity, of that, talking about race or being, someone who always has to be better, who always has to do better.

and how that is impactful.

and some of us people of color, and I can only speak, from my perspective, as a black woman, and knowing that, I have to, behave a certain way, when I'm in different groups, if I need something done, I have to make sure that I'm not, perceived as aggressive.

because that that will be the first thing that I will be called.

Is that I.

You know, she's too aggressive.

if I was, you know, a white man, and I, you know, one day, a patriot, I would, I would be.

And so, and so I just thought that was very interesting that justice, did, bring that up because, that does create an issue for some of us.

and, in our community is that, some of us then can engage in harmful behavior, to ourselves as well, because, there is, that, you know, mental health aspect of having to, to deal with race and having to constantly, prove that you're good enough.

Judge White.

Yeah.

So, okay, I'm going to take it through real time what it's like to be in person of color in a conversation about diversity.

I'm struggling with whether I want to say what needs to be said.

Because if I do, people might think, oh, he's this radical.

And I think most people know me over my career in public service would not describe me as radical, but I'm going to say it anyway.

But also remember our judicial ethics.

No no no no no, this has nothing to do with this.

This has nothing to do with your culture.

I cautioning you.

I hate that warning, but but again, what's the point of having a diverse bench or a diverse show about diversity if you can't say what is on your mind?

And this is the truth, and most black folks think this, what's all this conversation about Dei and it being an unfair leg up for people, when for centuries white men have had the opportunity to elevate their cousins, their sons, their daughters to corporate positions, to government positions, to give them contracts, redlining.

This stuff has been happening for decades, and nobody complained about it.

Now all of a sudden somebody says, in addition to being competent and capable, we want to recognize the value of who you are as a person culturally, ethnically, right.

So so I want to I want to tell you, this conversation is an example of the struggles we have not as judges.

This has nothing to do about ethics or anything like that.

This is a struggle.

When do we speak the truth to power?

And I want to say to speak the truth, the power for those folks talking about wait a second, do these people actually deserve to be pilots and they deserve to be in the air control the room?

I'm telling you, for decades nobody asked that question when they were putting white men in positions of power that were controlling people's lives.

Now all of a sudden they want to have that conversation.

And I'm saying, no, we're not having that conversation.

Everybody in this room is qualified, capable and committed to provide public service to the citizens of this community and the legal form.

But on top of that, we value the diversity of who we are, and we hope you value that, too, because our systems of government can only be improved to the extent that the people who are charged with executing those powers do it in a way that's that sensitive, that's empathetic, that's understanding, that's particularly government.

That's what government should be about.

We are late for our only break of the hour, and, that's okay.

Let's do that.

Let's take that break.

We're going to come right back.

I've got some more a little more feedback from the audience.

I want to make sure you understand the events that are coming up, later in the month, one about next week, one the following, and we'll come right back on connections.

Coming up in our second hour, most Americans are not vegan, but most Americans, according to surveys, say that they want to eat a lot more plant based food, even if it's not a full vegan diet.

So why aren't more of us actually doing that?

Is there an issue in the marketplace in terms of restaurants and food that's available, or do we just not know where to get it?

You're going to meet two business owners who think there's a big hole in that marketplace.

Next, our year old car, truck or motorcycle has a lot of value, even if it's not running.

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This is connections.

We've been talking about making our courts inclusive and representative for the community.

The Honorable Fatima Reed is with us.

Judge Reed is a family court judge.

The Honorable Vann White is a Rochester city court judge.

Andre Washington is treasurer of the Rochester Black Bar Association.

Tom writes in to say three different times he's given a standing ovation and our guests can't even see him.

So that's from Tom.

Tim had a different view.

He said that we are missing some of what has driven the conversation on race in recent years.

He says.

So much feels like everything is so extreme and so loaded.

He points to the work of Ibram X Kendi.

He says Kennedy's these books, which, by the way, include a book called How to Be an Anti-Racist, his book, say, look, everyone is either anti-racist or racist in everything they do, and you are turning people off if you tell them that everything in political and civic life is either racist or anti-racist.

I'm buttering a piece of toast.

Is that racist or anti-racist?

Why are we always thinking about everything in terms of race?

That is, from Tim.

So I don't know if the judges can weigh in on that.

I'll ask Andre what you make of that email.

What do you think?

so my initial reaction is, I hear a lot of folks.

So I went to the University of Chicago Law School.

I want to say that which is where the Federalist Society was founded, the architects of a lot of people that are looking to destroy democracy right now and who espouse a lot of beliefs and diversity.

So I've gotten very intimate with these, with these points of views.

And so my first thought when someone says that, that even makes candy, for example, is extreme, is really kind of a lack of, of depth of understanding through which to receive a lens through is through receive the information.

Right.

And so the I think the, the, the absurdity of the remark is, is evident by the example that Tim, is that his name Tim chose by talking about buttering his toast.

I mean, that's completely unserious in terms of of an example.

However, if you actually take in the information and like read the book, and then you see all the ways in which society and life is in fact impacted with race, you'll see what that statement actually means in that the way cities are designed, the way school funding actually works, the way hiring works, the way people select their their may even how, you know, it was quite fascinating to me and talking about the design of, of a few years, many, about ten or so years ago.

you may have experiences when you go to the bathroom and you and you and you wave your hand under the soap dispenser without the touching soap dispenser, they designed it, only it testing white hands.

And they weren't responsive to black hands.

Right.

And so they were that technological designs, technological designs when and this is known with health which is the problem with what President Trump is doing in, you know, meeting reference to race in, in looking, in, in health research when you're not including the diversity of people, race impacts so much of how life, works, in America.

And so when, when even Max Kennedy says that you're either racist or anti-racist, you I will say, what I hear from that is that the structure has been designed.

I mean, it's in our Constitution that I'm technically only two thirds of a person.

The structure was designed with that in mind.

And so either if you're not consciously aware of it, you're just being shaped by the structure around you.

And so you are impacting and acting, by, just living in a racist society and absorbing these ideas.

Or you can be and this is, you know, not welcome to be said or you can be woke to this structure that we live in and be anti-racist.

That's what that's what I think, Ibram X Kennedy is talking about.

Does it have anything to do with buttering toast?

No, but I think it's like making that, making that comparison is just not a serious look at at the depth of the problem.

Do you think people have been turned off by feeling exhausted by thinking about race all the time, or is that a white centered question?

I mean, I'm not trying to use the language of the movement.

I'm asking honestly, because, Andre, I feel like when I ask you, do you think people get exhausted by talking about race all the time?

You've already said this hour.

Like, you know, if you if you're growing up as a black man, being told you got to work ten times harder, you're thinking about it all the time, inherently, and it might be easy for white people to be like this kind of exhausting it.

I think it's exhausting for white people because it's new.

it is not something that they actually have to think about.

It is a privilege to not have to think about that.

Who you are, or the way you look will actually impact your life.

until recently, like what judge Reed talked about, it when you, you know, I, I didn't regret it.

I mean, I regret it when I, when I, when I quoted James Baldwin, it's like, oh, my God, this angry black man on the radio and, and and, the the thing is, it might be exhausting for white people, but take that exhaustion, think about it, and then imagine what it's like when you are on the receiving end of the actual oppression and you and there is no escape to the to how the structure is, is impacting on your body.

So let me interpret Tim's email one other way.

Do you think the guy has overstepped or misstep in any way?

so, in my honest opinion, I think the word diversity, has has missteps because it doesn't actually name the thing.

And I and I mentioned that earlier, and I think that created problems because you're talking about a solution without actually talking about the problem.

So I think that becomes that does become confusing because people are like, well, what are we doing?

Why are we fixing this?

Why are we fixing that?

Why are you fixing this?

Right?

I think that that does create some, some confusion.

I, I think that it has been, intentionally exploited to, to to cause its downfall, actually.

in what way?

Well, we don't have enough time to get into, to, to get into, to it, but, there is a law professor also Madea James who who writes about the problem of diversity and how what it does is it creates this oppositional relationship to whiteness and everything else.

Right.

And I think what it, what it the, what it causes is this sense of, of, of targeting whiteness as the problem rather than white supremacy.

Right.

It has it has, diminished the depth of the conversation that needs to happen.

And so it becomes this oppositional thing.

whereas it's really at the at the end of the day, if we talk about like housing policy, for example, white people got their houses.

We're not saying take the houses away.

We're saying give the houses to us too.

Right.

And so without that full conversation, it does become this oppositional non understanding of what came before.

So the missteps I think has has been in a failure to actually name the thing.

well anything our guests across table want to add or feel like they can add judges.

I will just say, you know, people can talk about Dei and in this from a programmatic point of view, but really the reality is whether you're a judge, a lawyer or a corporate executive officer, you got to live the life of tolerance and appreciating what America, as I said, the the, the pot of filled with vegetables has to give to each and every one of us.

And when you witness it over time, when you taste it over time, that diversity within that pot, there can be a better appreciation of how America can be better.

So, you know, forget the conversation, forget the narratives that people are trying to put out there.

From a political perspective.

I'm not even talking about that when when I get on the bench every morning, I'm taking Sam White with me.

I'm taking Anna White with me.

I'm taking my brothers, my sisters, the schools that I went to take in, the fact that I was a prosecutor.

I'm taking the fact that, I'm a dad.

That's the diversity that a Judge Ackerman brings, her background, that judge Reed brings, that Andre brings into the courtroom.

So forget the dialog, the narratives, that this is bad.

This is right.

Let's go left.

Let's go right.

Just do your job and appreciate what America has to offer in that pot.

All right?

We got to keep it tight here about 30s.

Why it and Brian on the phone.

Hey, why go ahead.

Oh it's why.

Out.

Oh, I can go ahead.

Yep.

Go ahead.

Hi, everyone.

Thank you so much for taking my call.

I'm from Illinois and I just want to say, listen, I appreciate you having this panel.

I just want to say, as a teacher, people, your ethnic people need to educate themselves because it's super, super important.

We cannot take off our skin.

We live in the skin, and we make sure that we we perform above and beyond.

We know our history, your history.

Can you just take the time and learn American history that is so diverse?

You of us all?

I think that would just a first step.

Maybe just a one of the first steps that we need to do to help to attack this problem.

Thank you so much for having your panel.

Thank you for what you do.

And to all the young ones out there, keep your head up, learn your history, and maintain your humanity.

Why?

Thank you very much for taking the time to call in here.

appreciate that.

And it has been a very fast hour.

The reason we got together in the first place is there's two events that they wanted you to know about.

And so, I think Wyatt's phone call puts a little button on the conversation, and then we'll close this by making sure you know what's coming up here.

Six days from now, February 18th, the little theater is hosting starting at 545. free community screening of Greenwood Is Still Burning.

It's a documentary recounting the 1921 Tulsa race Massacre and the impact on Black Wall Street.

The film was followed by a panel discussion that is next Tuesday at 545.

Get there early.

They would love to see you there.

And then eight days after that, two weeks from today, February 26th, starting at just after noon at the Hall of Justice, fourth floor.

Judge, you said yes.

Fourth floor on the fourth floor.

Tell people what's coming up on that day.

so on the fourth one, we're going to have an amazing, panel discussion of, local labor leaders since, the theme this year, for Black History Month is African-Americans and laborers, labor.

And so we wanted to educate ourselves, educate our community, people who look like us, who don't look like us about the, African-American movement in labor.

And so we're looking forward to having everyone there.

I want to say it is, there's a reason we don't often get a chance to sit down with sitting judges.

There are limits on what they can talk about, what they can respond to.

And, I always appreciate it.

Our community appreciates it.

Listeners do.

It is a wonderful opportunity to have a conversation with some of the leaders in this community, and Judge Fatima Reed and honor, thank you for being here.

Thank you.

Thanks for making the time.

Judge Van White, thank you very much.

Nice to see you.

I mean, another five years.

I'll see you again.

Apparently, someone doesn't have to be that long.

Andre Washington, treasurer of the Rochester Black Bar Association.

Thank you for making the time.

Thank you.

We've got more connections coming up in just a moment.

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