From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Mona Seghatoleslami, subbing in for Evan Dawson, taking us into the weekend and the last couple days of the Rochester Jazz Fest.

Our connection was made April 27th, 2026.

The New York Times and its music critics caused a bit of a dust up with their 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters list.

To be fair, it's a tough assignment, and no list like that is going to make everyone happy.

I think the real excitement happened in the responses.

How critics responded to criticism and arguments for who should or shouldn't have been on that list.

Musicians and writers including Rick Beato, Ted Joya, Tony Fontana and Brendan Mellado jumped into the fray with their thoughts not just on the choices, but how these choices are made and articulated.

Did Billy Joel belong on the list or at least deserve a little more respect from the critics?

So this hour, I have a few musicians and music writers here to talk about the art and craft of songwriting, and perhaps get a few of their favorites into the mix of joining us.

Rissa the writer, an indie artist whose sound blends rap, soulful vocals, dynamic performances on piano and guitar.

She has a lifelong passion for music and creates dozens of original songs and collaborates on features that transcends genres.

It's been a delight to have her at the Little Cafe and now here in the studio.

Welcome, Rissa.

Thank you, thank you.

We have Dave Chism, a graphic novelist and musician who's been writing songs for 20 years, also has his doctorate in jazz trumpet from the Eastman School of Music.

He also is a great comics artist, and he's written a string of critically acclaimed music centric graphic novels, including Chasing the Bird, Charlie Parker in California, and Miles Davis in The Search for the sound, and he teaches comics and music and songwriting at the Hochstein School night.

Dave, welcome.

Thanks for having me, Mona.

Yeah, and I've got Anna Ruggero, founding editor of our newest arts publication.

You may have caught her covering the jazz festival Rochester Overture.

Anna Ruggero, an award winning music and dance critic, arts reporter, editor, music historian and educator.

More than 20 years of experience in journalism.

An NEA classical music journalism Fellow, and also wrote for the DNC for many years and has a PhD in music history and theory, along with degrees in journalism and music.

Anna, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

So I guess all of you have probably read this list and thought about it.

Did something stand out to you immediately, as I guess I'll start with our practicing musicians and songwriters.

How is it that you think of writing songs and what makes it good?

Perhaps I'll go that way.

I sort of turned around here, but as you're starting to craft your song, we'll get to the list later.

But like, what goes into writing a song, perhaps for the layperson?

Like, okay, I want to write a song.

Is it words?

Music?

Rhythm?

What are some of your considerations?

Rissa.

I think what makes a song, song is if it's real and authentic meaning?

Like if it's coming from a real place, like sometimes, like I even I've tried to, like, force some lyrics, like me and I got to write a song.

I got to write a song.

But like, I can't write a song if it's not coming from a real place.

So that's a I think that's an important thing.

And especially as we talk about like, why listen to humans as musicians?

Dave, do you also have some thought on that or is it's what are some of the elements of craft also that you think of?

Yeah.

I think the starting from a real place is important.

But also having a certain level of command of the tools that are, that are there, like some it doesn't even need to be that much of a command, just like enough to get your ideas out in a way that is satisfying to the songwriter.

It's sort of a funny like, or a burrow sort of an answer where it's like, you know, when you hear it kind of thing.

But I think having like a sense of the, of the tools and sort of like an understanding of that, you know, can help, help make your authenticity, help you express with, like a bit more precision or a bit more like depth in that way.

And that will perhaps bring me a bit to the list, is that they tried to, in 30 people capture so many different genres and styles of music, some of which perhaps have their own kind of rules or styles or codes or ways where you are successful.

So I guess for each of you, again, the songwriters, before I bring in our music and arts critic, what are some of the things that shaped what you thought?

This is what I want to sound like or what you hear in different styles.

Do you really put yourself in one area, or do you kind of work?

You know, listen broadly and how do you incorporate those to make sense?

Is that like way too much of it?

I mean, it's really hard to know, even like even the like what makes us something good or successful is it is really just kind of a like a subjective thing to, you know, so thinking about like the things that they go into it, I mean, I think that you can't really put a valve on it, you know, everything that comes in is going to kind of get folded up in your awareness and then come out in song.

Sorry, I just left my mic.

And that's where it's like, perhaps, you know, you're sitting down to write a song.

What are some of the things that you've heard that made you want to use songs as your way to express yourself, or what things kind of start to go into the the mix as you stir it up?

Good songs.

Yeah.

Or good music, like good, instrumentals and stuff like that.

Sometimes that can inspire a good song, like the music kind of can speak to you in a way like that's kind of how you can know or me personally, like what to write about, like, this is this beat or this instrumental is giving a love song like, this feels like a love song, or this feels like a song about overcoming.

So sometimes that and then sometimes just starting off with the words like, I like how you, Dave, you were talking about how, like using the tools and stuff like, so sometimes you can even just like journal and then pull from that and start adding the songwriting tools and then masterpiece.

And it is something you can learn though, right?

Like it's not just like if you learn born with songs coming from the muses into your head, you know, don't bother.

Oh yeah.

Totally.

A talent is just like, not really.

It's just it's all about the process.

It's all about diving into the process and committing to it and, you know, committing to like starting and finishing songs and then finish one and finish one and finish one, and the next thing you know, you'll have some good ones in it and sort of like having a bit of reflection on it, but not too much.

That's I definitely noticed in some of the discussions of the list and we'll get into this.

People are like, it's more objective to say who's the greatest guitarist than the greatest songwriter, but songwriting is also a craft full of tools and connections.

Well, the hard thing is the how are how to be arbiter.

Like, what are the what are the criteria that that they're using?

Is it like who sold the most records?

Is it like who made the most money?

Is it like who uses the most chords or writes the most?

The shape liest melodies and stuff like that.

Like, no, this is it's as soon as you start to break it down like that.

It sounds pretty silly.

Well, and I'll bring you in, especially because you've written about music in many genres.

And even just this week in the jazz fest, you're writing about for all of us, everything from jam bands to straight ahead jazz to a singer songwriter to.

So what are some of the things that stand out to you as you're thinking about what makes music work, and how you talk about it to people to say, this is why?

Absolutely.

One of the things that I think of when I look at this list, I, I come from it, to it from a few different perspectives.

Right.

I come from to it from a musicologist perspective, where I think a little bit about the context in which, you know, this music was created and what are the criteria that we are how are we defining what songwriting is?

How do we think about the elements of songwriting?

And as a theorist, how do we think about the elements of a song, to make it, make it good?

The writer in me, the journalist in me, knows that none of us can write from a place that isn't very personal.

So we all have this very personal experience with songs, with songwriting, and to how it speaks to us at certain times in our lives, and at certain moments for us.

And so I think a lot of us find our favorite songwriters just from that personal experience.

And it doesn't necessarily won't always necessarily fall under, you know, a top 30 list for a musicologist or, a rock musician or everyone's going to be a little bit different in how they define what's meaningful to them.

And then there's the editor in me who thinks, okay, what is the meaning of a top 30 list?

Right?

And think of it as really, a way to, make readers read.

And.

To, to, get people a little bit riled up about, about this.

And that's sort of the point behind a list like this.

So, but in terms of, of what makes great music, I mean, I, I again, I think it's one of those things, you know, it when you hear it, it's really hard to define.

It's, it's an ephemeral feeling, right?

You know, so, but I, I mean, I gravitate toward songs that, have an interesting complexity to them.

Right?

And that's just my ears.

I love, songs that have sort of interesting chords or go places that I don't expect, you know, lyrics that are very poetic, or, you know, and can, bring up a lot of imagery for me.

So, but, I mean, that's a very general idea.

It's, Oh, no, I brought you guys in here with this list idea and then went into, like, you know, what is the meaning of everything in music?

And let us ponder it all.

But I do want to mention that listeners can call the show at 844295 talk.

That's (844) 295-8255.

That's toll free.

Or if you're in the Rochester area, (585) 263-9994 comments are open on YouTube.

Be kind.

And you can also email connections at wxxi.org.

And we can have those passed on to share.

But that is perhaps I should get into the list itself.

Did something as you looked at it or some of the conversation afterwards.

Each of you stand out like, oh, that makes total sense or what were they smoking?

So oh gosh.

Here you go Dave.

Your time for oh.

No no I, I. You said you would be nice.

I, I'm, I'm really happy that Fiona Apple was on the list because Fiona Apple is like my like, you know, goddess of songwriting.

Like she's my favorite.

You know, and I'm not going to talk about people that I don't think should have been on the list because there's like, I have my own areas of expertise and my own taste, and I'm not going to have the hubris to say, like, you know, that my opinions or it's kind of like when people say, what's your favorite movie?

And maybe I've never enjoyed a movie in my life more than when I went to see the first Spider-Verse movie.

Because I have been a comic book fan my whole life, and it was like I was a little kid again.

But is that the greatest movie or is that just a fun time that I had?

Like, anyway, that's just so I mean, there were some inclusions on the list that I was critical of, but at the same time, like, I don't I don't know, I only know what I know, I like what I like, and I understand what I understand to me that to me, the thing that kind of sticks out when people make these kinds of lists is like, is like the test of time, you know, like, and I know that the America's young in recorded music is pretty young and we haven't really had a lot of time for things to like, make it through generation and generation and generation, and this is living songwriters and stuff like that.

So ultimately it's going to be it's going to skew towards like very current trends and stuff like that.

And I don't know, but yeah, but sorry.

That was a that was a horrible answer.

I didn't realize that were going to be listeners either.

I'm very nervous now.

Oh, okay.

So well, the nice thing or the thing that I think is interesting you bring up is recency versus like having a lot of history.

Some people are like, this person's been writing songs for like 30, 40 years.

Like they've had a lot more time or this is who speaks to our current moment.

So there is some have accused the list of a recency bias, and some have accused it of a historical bias.

Like there's not enough recent.

I think Rick Beato did call it a list for everyone is a list for no one.

But part of why I wanted to have this conversation because as he also said, if you're going to have an opinion music, you should probably understand how songs actually work.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously I feel the same way.

I don't I shouldn't say obviously we've we've talked before mono.

So I mean, I say that to you personally, not to like your listeners like nobody knows me at all.

But like, I don't want to talk too much more either, so I'll let somebody else talk.

I feel the same way.

I agree with Rick also, we talked before that we we pushed pushed record is that that music exists is a sociological thing.

And as like this, it's, like a sound for object that exists in like, sound space that we can analyze on its own terms.

And it also exists in society.

And this list skews very hard in one of those directions.

So.

So, Risa, did you get to look at the list and think about anyone that you love on there?

I know that for me, again, we each have our own limits and knowledge.

I'd say I don't know much about Fiona Apple.

I know she's highly regarded.

So I started listening, and that actually led me to find out that I love Aimee Mann.

So who I also hadn't known, and she was listed.

I was like, who are some of these songwriters?

People listed together?

And I still haven't heard of what people are hearing in Fiona Apple, but I. What, what album did you check out?

It was late last night.

So the thing that I guess is I'm bringing in is also is I like a list that makes me go listen more and explore.

So it's not like so one of the big critiques of the critics afterwards is that they kind of dismissed other people's suggestions, like they mocked Billy Joel for being uncool or not writing more than one kind of song.

Which is honestly like, silly.

It's silly to.

That's a silly thing to say about Billy Joel.

And I'm not even like a big Billy Joel stand, you know, like, silly thing to say.

That's that's it.

That to say even, the word you used for being a fan of stand comes from a songwriter that some people think was left off the list, which is Eminem, because that was one of his songs.

Was stand, which is where we get our term for an official, you know, an obsessive fan.

So, yeah, jazz musician Brad Mellado said that of the critics who may themselves be feeling a bit silly about 1 or 2 of the things they said, because of course, if you get in the room and talk for an hour, perhaps some silly things happen when you're live, as we might see later.

But, he personifies the problem, says Brad Mellado of criticism in pop music.

Namely, he doesn't know it's the only thing about the nuts and bolts of music and sets up just as a cultural phenomenon.

But he doesn't want to set up his as an us and them between musicians and everyone else.

Plenty of people who don't have a musical background or education understand that Billy Joel's craft is deep and innovative, but he says that The New York Times critics are not them, so he can yell that Billy Joel writes 1 or 1 and a half kinds of songs really well.

People before him wrote really well, and people after him wrote really well, but it shows an ignorance of the subject.

He's, paid to write about and is deeply untrue.

So perhaps after I get, I realize I should ask Anna for you for some of your favorite inclusions or favorite sadly left out ones.

Is that how do we also talk about, innovation versus like doing something really well, right.

Like, does it have to break the rules of songwriting and teach you something you've never heard before, or is it going to take some basic ideas and really put a point on it?

Right.

Well, we can talk about that with someone like Bob Dylan, right?

Who perfected the folk song, right.

You know, he did that really well and he continued to do that really well.

And, I don't think anybody would argue with his place on a top 30 songwriter list.

I am also a big Fiona Apple fan, so, so, Mona, you have to take a take more of a listen.

Absolutely.

But, for me, that has a very personal element to it.

I mean, the 90s were my coming of age, right.

And then and Fiona Apple was my soundtrack.

Same with Tori Amos.

I mean, I feel like Tori Amos is another one of those songwriters.

I, I would have on a personal top 30 list, which I don't know if it would correspond with a public one, but but certainly on my personal one.

And other other, other artists who are left out.

I mean, Eminem.

Absolutely.

I mean, some of the, you know, sort of, more like hip hop and rap artists that they put in here.

I'm thinking, you know, those are there's bigger names, you know, there there's more, significant artists who are alive who are doing doing great.

Great work.

I think you're the one left out for me.

Could be that.

I just think of me as such a consummate songwriter as Randy Newman and.

Oh, yes.

Just, you know, we have a new Toy Story out, you know that.

But also other what I guess in the indie and pop corner space.

I didn't think about it at first, but some people started talking about Sufjan Stevens and what he's crafted in songs, and at least for me, the way it could be the classical music side of me that likes something that builds and has a almost symphonic feel, because that's you can get into should a pop song be simple, should it be direct or is, you know, is prog rock or grandiosity getting away from it or doing something new with it?

Marissa, do you have some favorite songwriters that you want to shout out that people should be thinking about?

Michael Jackson?

What is?

Yeah, talk about it.

I was listening to him for for 12 hours on my shift in, Michael Jackson is one of my favorites because you can tell that he comes from a real place when he's writing.

Like, since he's had his first, solo album.

Like, he comes from a real place.

Once you, like, learn about, like, the songwriter, you know, like the Off the Wall album is about, like, breaking from the group to now being on my own, off the wall and, all the way down to, the escape album, which was after it was dropped after his passing.

But it's also, real, like even sometimes some of the songs I listen to some of the albums today and some of the songs I'm like, like, wow, like if I didn't, like, know about Michael Jackson, I probably find this corny, but like knowing that the story behind the songs, it just makes a song so much better.

Like when you can dive in more into a song.

Like, I love this song so much.

Like I want to ask questions about it.

I got to, as, Danielle ponders some questions about her new song that she dropped in.

Like, that's a really cool experience.

And it makes you love the song more when you know more about it.

So hey, and we do have a call, but I also want to shout out that we had Danielle on the show recently with Evan talking about the song, and you can catch that episode on the podcast on YouTube.

And she is truly one of our amazing Rochester musicians.

So we do have a call on line one.

Alexander.

We have.

Hi.

Hey.

What's up?

Thanks for calling in.

On the Hill.

Yeah, love connections is doing a great job.

And, I, I do like looking around here in Rochester.

I have heard of you.

It's great to hear you on NPR.

Elliot Smith, you guys are all amazing, by the way, for a great songwriter.

I don't know if anybody in the room recognizes that guy, but I also wanted to ask you all, like what you've been listening to recently.

Like, I know we're talking about favorite songs.

Is that songwriters and stuff.

So, like, what have you been getting in the car on the way home from work and putting on?

I just want to say that the list is about living songwriters.

And so I didn't bring up Elliot Smith because sadly, he's not with us anymore.

That living thing actually trapped a few people because even in the time they took to write the articles, some people passed away, like Brian Wilson.

Sure.

Yeah.

But, but yeah, I'm a huge Elliott Smith.

Like, obsessed with Elliott Smith.

Like big time, obsessed with Elliott Smith's music.

I don't want to.

I mean, who am I listening to right now?

Honestly?

Like, I'm, I'm playing, like a 30th anniversary show for Pinkerton by Weezer in September.

And so I've just been, like, living in, like, Weezer, like those first two Weezer albums land.

So I have definitely strong opinions about that stuff.

But that's not that's for another.

That's for another, connections episode.

I think.

Anna, do you have something you've been listening to a lot?

I've been listening to a lot of Gabriel Kane.

I don't know who out there knows Gabriel Kane.

He's the son of Jeffrey Kane, the wonderful classical pianist.

So Gabriel, has a deep classical background, but also brings in sort of popular song indie sounds into his, into his music.

And he's done some albums that are just songwriting.

And he, he has just these gorgeous textures and colors and chord shifts and, and just an incredible voice as well as, he plays piano as well.

I believe he plays the guitar as well.

And multi-instrumentalist.

So I've been listening to a lot of Gabriel Kane.

He's always sort of on my playlist, actually.

I would shout him out also because I follow him on Instagram.

If you are on social media, he takes things and write songs.

So if you want to see like the art of someone sort of writing a topical song, you know, then kind of easy taking a funny email or a commentary or even like just an interaction online and turning it into a song.

He does that and post them and you can see him playing piano.

So he's also a great writer, and he has a Substack, and he is just such a deep thinker and writer.

He recently had an article in The Atlantic.

So, he's just all around kind of a creative, interesting, deep thinker musician.

Right?

And that's capture and so thank you so much for the question.

I know, Rachel, you mentioned Michael Jackson.

Do you have one other you want to say from your playlist or what you're really thinking about their songwriting.

Other than that?

I listen to my homies and Laura Russell also, you know, they they all like, write stories from a real place.

And I love artists who like, talk about the song, you know?

So again, that's that's my thing.

I like stories.

And the song is a sort of funny form because, you know, sometimes people will say like, oh, one of my favorite songs, Beethoven for Symphony, but a song, if you're being very specific, is a short form piece for voice and normally an accompaniment or an instrumental part.

So in pop music that's sort of taken over in a way that say, I mean, yes, Schubert and Schumann and all these people wrote songs the 19th century or Monteverdi wrote madrigals in the 17th century.

But like for us, the song is this form.

Whether it is in so many different popular genres right now, you've got some thought, you've got a thoughtful look on your face.

Oh, I just was like, I just wanted to shout out another band.

I've been checking out a band called Otto Lux.

I don't know if anyone's ever checked out Otto Lux, but they make some very clever musical decisions.

Like, it's a really it's like kind of a noise rock band from LA.

And they put out, they put out, only put out like three albums across like 20 years.

But they're really killer.

It's like one of the guys from the band failure is in it and the, the drummer is this, like, incredible woman.

Just amazing.

Why can't I think of her name?

This is going to just.

Yeah.

So I'll talk a little bit about a song I like, and I'll get to another listener comment.

And it's just that outside of classical music and what I'm hearing, a jazz fest, I have become a huge Florence and the machine fan.

And I'd say that sometimes my husband says my favorite genre of music is killing yourself to make art.

Whether it's your Florence talking about how hard they work and then how sad life is and how much they love what they do.

So I normally think it's about music for me, but there's a certain lyrical theme that I guess has spoken to me.

But yeah, her, even her, latest one of her albums, one of the great talks about being on the list with, you know, the three women and the 50 men on the greatest guitarist of all time or something like that.

So she's very self-aware.

But again, it's I love this sort of dramatic, almost operatic style.

So that's where I can both praise someone for their craft.

But I also know my personal what I've sort of grown because there are so many options out there too, which is so funny thing.

I also like people mentioning local musicians because sometimes it is just what do I go to?

Even the venue.

I book the cafe and I hear a song from Risa, and I hear a singer songwriter night where people are doing open mic, and I might not put that on an album in my car, but in that moment I love again some of that story and discovery.

So we do have another comment from Charles over email says I saw Rick Emmett solo at Batavia Downs a few years ago after playing late on the line and Allied Forces and somebody out there, he stepped up to the mic to say, and now for the words every classic rock fan hates.

This is something from our new album.

And the crowd got a good laugh, and he followed up asking us to indulge him in a few songs before he went to playing triumph hits.

My point is, I think it's fair to ask if the list was based solely on the artists at their peak versus factoring in what the writing now.

But Springsteen was the boss before I was born.

Not anymore, he says.

So any thoughts?

Perhaps from our critic on.

Yeah, where artists were and where they are now on this.

If I were compiling a top 30 list, I would be taking into consideration an artist's full, you know, of what their, their full work.

And, there are certainly artists who at one point were the top of their game and maybe are no longer, you know, we could maybe say that about Bob Dylan, right?

You know, we we don't really.

I hear a lot of new stuff from him that really climbs the charts the same way as his, his old stuff that we are all so familiar with.

But, for me, it's it's definitely taking into consideration the full, the full catalog.

So thanks for the comments over email.

That email address is connections@wxxi.org.

Or you can call 844295 talk to 8442958 255.

We are going to take a short break, but then I'll be back to talk again about songwriting and this New York Times songwriting list with Anna Rivera, Dave Chisholm and Ressler.

The writer.

I'm Megan Mac, coming up in our.

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This is connections from WXXI news.

I'm Mona Asami in for Evan Dawson music.

We all have a lot of feelings of what we like, what we don't like, and whether or not we're experts on all the technical terms.

We still like to talk about it.

And The New York Times, music critic certainly stirred that up with their list of 30 Greatest American Living songwriters.

And we're discussing some of the list, some of the reactions and some of our own thoughts with some great experts, a couple songwriters, Russell the writer and Dave Chisholm.

Dave also teaches songwriting, and Anna Ribeiro, who's been a longtime music writer as well as a historian and critic of music.

One of the things we are just slightly getting into is this whole idea of where you draw the line on the list and why this perhaps matters, right?

Like why living?

Why American?

Really?

You just said so many people I like or dead.

Yeah.

So what, what are some of the names that you mentioned?

Young Thug being an interesting inclusion?

You're not the only one.

In fact, Will layman said, simmering beneath all the scoffing on both sides is the question of how music bumps up against politics.

When you listen to be Otto's first list of other songwriters who might have been included in the times list.

Yes, it's overwhelmingly male, white and guitar centric.

Does he turn his nose up at the inclusion of Young Thug and Bad Bunny?

He does, as always with politics, there's some affront on both sides.

But Beato is mostly right, says well, layman.

He doesn't argue the list had to include John Fogerty or Jackson Browne.

He puts a finger on the fact the list isn't what it claims to be.

It's not as much as music as so much is about issues in politics and culture.

So, when we look at, you know, does Young Thug belong on there?

They're trying to get at something that's saying when you think songwriter, think a little bit wider, but you still think they missed the mark.

Rizzo.

Yeah, I mean, a lot of times, like, I don't know, a young thug is saying, for real, I mean, I just added a song from Young Thug on my playlist, but it's more like for vibe purposes.

So, like Anna was saying, like, you look at the whole artists and what goes into the art like, I like is album covers, but like, I mean, like the songs like someone tried to show me a Young Thug song.

They were like, yeah, like, listen to these harmonies and like they were off.

So like, I'm just like, yeah.

And that's I guess I'd say, perhaps.

What are we looking at here?

Yeah.

And I do have some thoughts from the musicologist kind of hat that you wear or what we're trying to get at pointing at certain ideas of songwriting.

Yeah.

I mean, I can see in this list how much they're trying to be at least trying to be inclusive.

I wouldn't say they're entirely inclusive.

But, but some of the names that I'm not maybe as familiar with, you know, like bad Bunny, Bunny, I, I haven't listened to any Bad Bunny songs, so I can't even tell you if that Bad Bunny would deserve to be on the top 30, but I, I love the idea that we have sort of a Latin artist, on a list like this.

So, so I think that inclusivity is, is a necessary, necessary goal for a list like this.

I think Bad Bunny is a great songwriter.

That's like, even compared to, like, like Young Thug being on the list, like, young Thug is vibe music, like, you know, there's I don't think there's, like, much lyricism going on there, but Bad Bunny, I actually don't speak Spanish, but I had a friend who does, and she wasn't a bad bunny.

I'm like, this feels good.

Like, what is he talking about?

And she began to translate the lyrics for me, and I was like, wow.

Like in I think is like, last album is an album that if you can get the translation, I think everyone can relate and connect to it.

It's really like humanitarian of him.

That's great.

I have to listen to some bad bunny now.

So is universality apart important?

Like, does it have to stand this test of time?

Or is if a song really speaks to a moment that, you know, what do you value?

Oh gosh.

Sorry.

Universality.

It's kind of paradoxical in songwriting, I think, because the more universal you try to be when you write a song, the less universal it ends up being.

And I it's probably the same with the list.

Like Rick it.

How do you say I think?

Beato yeah.

Like Rick said, you know, if you try to please everybody, then you please nobody or you make something that's like, so vague and bland.

I think it's in the specificity that people really kind of can see themselves in it.

And paradoxically, you know, but, I don't know.

So, yeah, no, this idea of I even think of I mean, we're talking songwriting, but I think of producing stories.

So this sort of my journalist hat.

But on a radio side, I love a quote that speaks to some universal truth, like music belongs to our heart.

But I'm like, what does that mean?

Like if someone says, when I first heard this song, I experienced this, you know, that's your that leaves out someone else because that's their specific story.

But then it's very.

Yeah, yeah.

Like and honestly like it's one it's definitely like a, a bee in my bonnet when, when people talk about the inevitability of music and inevitably it's someone saying that who just, just doesn't have a vocabulary to talk about music.

And so it's like, actually it's totally affable, like you can totally understand what's going on in music.

You just have to, like, put in a little bit of time, a little bit of work, a little bit of curiosity, a little bit of humility, and you can understand what's going on.

You can figure out what's going on in the music.

It's the mystery element of it in public discourse around music is just like.

It's like it's like the equivalent of me, like watching a movie in another language.

You mean like, wow, it's so mysterious.

I have no idea what's going on.

It's like, yeah, no duh.

I don't speak the language.

I mean, I if I don't have subtitles on, I won't know what's going on.

And so that's like, to me, it's sort of like, like, if, if you don't make any effort to try to understand what's happening in it.

Yeah, of course it's ineffable and like it feels cosmic and infinite and everything like that.

And to me, and I've had, you know, I, I'm talking too much again.

But, I have like the social media video series where, like, I do like these little like, comic book illustrated analyzes of like songs off of okay computer by Radiohead and, and, it's built around like getting people to understand specific elements of what's happening in the music in a way that they can, that you don't need that, like understand dots on paper to understand what's happening in the music.

Like when a melody goes up and they're singing about flying, then maybe that is like on purpose and means something, right?

And so on and so forth.

And and, and so, so much discourse is just around, like, like vibe, like insert and just as the sociological element that we're talking about and it just feels like a little bit of a I think people are ready to people are ready to hear stuff about specifics.

And I think sometimes I think the journalism about music is kind of like missing the opportunity to help me help people hear things better.

I think you said two important words in there, really, that stuck with me, their curiosity and humility that we can kind of get at something.

But then sometimes, you know, by understanding it.

Well, yeah, but but I would also add that, like the magic really happens when you can uncover every, every stone on a piece of music and you can really know exactly what's happening all the time, and it still transports you.

It's still true.

Because because I've had a lot of people even like in in my education, where you're in a music theory class and there's always one kid who's like, if I learn this and I'm going to hate music, if I as soon as I learn what's going on, then I'm going to hate it.

And it's like, no, no, no, no, no no no no, no, no.

You might hate a lot of a lot of the stuff that you grew up like loving, you might not like as much as you when you understand what's going on, but actually like it enriching it makes it a deeper love when you understand it like there's nothing that I'm not about.

So where do we find these videos?

Where you unpack songs?

Because I think people are hungry for that.

That's why people follow Rick Beato and, this other guy that I was just watching Anthony fentanyl, fentanyl or the Song Exploder podcasts.

And so, you know, people do.

Song exploder is it's pretty fun.

Exploring music on my station on classical because he sort of takes apart some ideas.

So where do we find your videos?

I post my videos on the internet, on Instagram, and on TikTok is where I post them.

I've thought about putting some of them on YouTube, but I, there's only so many hours in the day.

I wear a lot of hats, and I have a two year old.

So, wrestling has some thoughts on what we know about the when you know about the inside of a song or something else on your mind.

Oh, yeah.

Like, I want to add to that.

I actually don't know what's going on in music.

Like, I took a music theory class, I took a piano class, and it's just like, yeah, like, I'm going to know this scale for this week so I can get a good grade.

But like, after, like, it doesn't, like, store in my brain.

The music theory or anything.

The main thing that, stored in my brain for music theory was just the feeling like.

So I know when I hear a major chord, I know when I hear a minor chord because of the way it feels.

So like in band practice, they're like, work here.

And I'm like, I don't know.

And I have to go to the piano and be like, this is the first chord, or this is the bass.

I don't know what's going on.

But when you write a song, you sort of go from one chord to the next and you hear something about the relationship, right?

Oh, can I just say that?

I think you do know, though, that's the thing is, like, it's just a different the music is this multidimensional thing.

It's something we hear.

It's something we participate in.

It's something that we can see on a piano or on dots on paper and stuff like that, or on a keyboard or like a fretboard or whatever.

And like, if you understand, like any one of those things, we might call it intuitive, but it's still an understanding, right?

It's still an understanding.

So, and I would also add that I'm not going to I don't hope this isn't overstepping.

I think maybe you didn't have great teachers.

I wouldn't say that.

Okay.

I wouldn't say that.

I just I already was like, playing music.

Yeah, I used to make music with the rubber band.

Like, by stretching, you know, getting different keys.

So, like, is like the ear.

Yeah.

And that's and that's and that's, that's the ultimate level of understanding.

That's what nerds that go to music school are trying to get.

They're in on their own path to get their ear where it is.

Right.

So like ultimately it's almost like you hop skipped over that stuff because your ear is there.

I've had students like that where I'm like, we're not even going to worry about notation because your ear is there.

You're a songwriting student.

This isn't a notated tradition.

We don't care about notation in the world of songwriting, largely because that's not part of the tradition.

And that's okay.

So, that that's it.

I'm not trying to.

So I have been doing great.

Yeah, I have a music theory PhD, and I have to tell you that the, the kind of music theory that I did was really, and I was so grateful for to be in a department that was like, let's start from what you hear, right?

Let's just start there, okay?

Because if we start at the score, we start at the written notes, we start at like trying to do a string carrying analysis.

There's so many layers of meaning and understanding that you can miss.

So I agree with Dave that, the this formal understanding of music, it really all starts with your ears that you're listening.

And I think all of us have the ability to listen and listen well.

So you know, and, and I think it's just about learning how to tap into and pay attention and see.

Oh, that was interesting.

Why why do I feel that that is interesting.

And asking questions, being curious when you approach music.

Like, you know, just because you don't know the name of the color green doesn't mean you can't recognize that the color green is the thing.

You know, maybe that's a silly analogy, but I'm a silly guy.

No, I'm loving this discussion, which almost came out of left field from what we're starting with, like this guy or that, because this is I think the meaningful discussion is us getting into our understanding of music.

What study can elucidate or what, again, getting back to first principles of listening and considering.

I have two more comments to share.

One is just Billy Joel was robbed, the other is robbing the Rochester.

How do you rate or list greatest musician songwriter song?

It's what your heart likes and how it rates in your own life.

So, you know whether there can be something.

I think Dave alluded to this earlier that even if you understand it's not the greatest, it speaks to you in that context or that moment.

You know, perhaps there's.

There, but there is to to contrary.

I'm yeah, I'm a Gemini.

So I'm just going to contradict myself from earlier, and say there is some objectivity here as well.

We can actually like say like bring some objectivity to it.

Like it's not just like a purely subjective space, like, you know, my two year old might sit down and take his toy piano and, like, sing a song, and he's being authentic and real and everything, but it he's not he's to eat.

He's not great at it yet.

He doesn't know what he's doing.

And there's some subjectivity like he son, you're pretty out of tune.

I would obviously would never say that to him.

You know, because he's two in between.

But, you know, like the idea of.

Sorry, Julianna, if you're listening out there, I didn't mean to call you out.

But, like, there.

I think there is some objectivity, you know, with this stuff, with all of these disciplines.

And that's where it does get kind of like tricky in this, because I think that, the layperson likes to think that there's no objectivity in it.

Well, actually, and some of your discussion of authenticity makes me think of there are some great songwriting traditions that some people discount because they're almost seen as a machine.

Right?

Like because people worked at it.

I loved the Brill Building and the idea that people sat there in New York tossing out ideas like it's not even how they feel.

They're like, how does someone feel?

Right then almost gets you back to the old madrigals.

So or is it Stax or Motown or Nashville and country?

And we can say like there's like a songwriting factory going, but also people have to know some skills to work on that line or.

Like dance music.

I don't know, like thinking about, like, what's the point of this music?

What's the purpose of this music?

Like, there's lots of different purposes of a song.

If, if we're going to talk about what was his name, Young Thug.

What if vibes is the purpose.

That's what I was thinking of like you know, vibes are cool, but like, you know, what is this song about?

You know, you can still have a vibe song and it can be about something like, you know, but if it's just like, but also just vibing out on the mic and like, writing a song, freestyling, like my friends do it all the time.

I think that's really creative.

And I really like, admire, like to see my friends just freestyling, writing songs off the top and it's really fun like that.

So I mean, I guess it depends what you're looking for.

The other, omission from the list that I think made the longer list for me, that is again, a personal preference, but I thought of it shows something also is that they might be Giants to me are a songwriting the two johns of They Might Be Giants written so many brilliant songs.

They're also very prolific, the sort of people that maybe have a few tricks and can write songs in different ways.

But I think the thing that's left out sometimes is humor.

That, like, sometimes a great song, is one that speaks to the most like deepest of feelings, but like a funny song can be good too.

Yeah.

I mean, not I'm not arguing in favor one way or the other, but like, you know, Weezer's put out like 18 albums.

Like, that's a lot of music.

It's a lot of songs.

And, you know, there's there's a good song on a couple good songs on each album or like a bunch of good songs on some of the albums and stuff like that, you know, and funny songs like silly songs.

But then you get into like, tricky territory because then it's like, is a jingle a song is a this or that a song?

And it's, I don't know, I mean, it's ha, it's I don't envy the journalist that took this on, you know, I think it's just more like, yeah, the thing that took me back was that they the, they got this the, they canvased all these musicians and everything.

And then they were like, oh, but then we decided to just like, not consider that it was almost like what they did.

Yeah.

And it was like, what do you what why would I mean, when rolling Stone did all their 500 greatest X, Y, and Z, I don't think they did that.

Did they.

Know?

So yeah, just to explain that it wasn't just like these critics and it wasn't just popular vote.

They went to like a few people they thought were expert, like, let us ask Ted Gioia or let us ask Rick Beato for their feedback.

They're in the music industry.

They work with music, and then they kind of shunted that to the side.

So I will say, if you want to go deep on this list and all the responses, the, several people who submitted ballots a year or two ago have put their ballots up online.

And that's an interesting thing, right?

Because that's even with critics, I guess I'd say for movies for a while.

I think my husband said, well, it seems like I found someone whose tastes seemed to line up with mine and then see where they lead me, because they seem to look for the same things.

Which is also, yeah, with movies we talked about subtitles, but I think cinema has a language the same way music does.

You can say there's the script, there's the words.

But then why did that lighting change?

Why did that camera do that?

You're say and that's what I love about the affable or enough ability about music like cinema is you can say things without words and then we can argue about what you're saying.

But a lot of things signify and mean something, as I know our musicologist does say, but even when we get into the past, like a rising note might mean something in one culture, but it might mean something else in another culture.

So let's let's sort of live, I guess, in our culture for sure, whatever that is, or our many cultures.

But any other thoughts on the living?

This or American this?

We have only a couple of minutes.

I'll give the number and the email one more time.

We might be able to get to one more comment.

It's locally 58526399994.

That's 844295 talk.

The email is connections at WXXI dawg.

And we will also, take comments on YouTube.

So I find one of the interesting things about focusing on living American, songwriters is that it leaves out most of the American songbook.

Right.

Which, you know, is a glaring admission to me if you're going to make a top songwriting list.

Songwriter list, to, to or to admit that, it also, means that several of the the best, jazz, composers over time who wrote incredible songs won't be included in a list like this.

So there's so many admissions.

Just by, limiting it to to the living artists.

A great, an American songwriter, Rochester and songwriter no longer living who recently had a tribute show.

A jazz fest is Alec Wilder.

So if you're looking to explore something, I was also learning, if you like, like the George Gershwin, Cole Porter, old American songs.

There was someone from Rochester who wrote hundreds of them that, like Frank Sinatra, loved the best.

And like, people don't know him quite as well.

So that's another if you're looking just to sort of explore a bit more.

I also think the Americanness is an odd thing, because even it gets people arguing like, well, is Joni Mitchell spiritually American?

Even though she's from Canada, and whether someone's from Australia or England and we're part there's certainly this larger music world where like whether or not.

Yeah, Kate Bush being left out, you know, because we're looking at American music, I feel that's very even if we're in America's current 250 and we are thinking about American identity, it's a lot of what we're talking about crosses, nations.

Yeah.

I just feel it isn't nationalism just kind of silly.

Okay.

I'll just kind of silly.

Just like lines in the sand that people can yell about.

I don't know, I don't.

Know.

So the other thing I guess I would just encourage in addition to, of course, always wanting people listening what we're doing in classical and go out and explore more music is, that my colleague Hannah Mair on the root w r u r plays a lot of music, both locally and nationally.

There interesting things.

And I used to live in West Virginia, where the show Mountain Stage comes out of, and they feature so many musicians who are like 1 or 2 levels lower in terms of fame.

And a lot of those people are the people who are songwriters.

I used to go to these concerts in West Virginia.

I heard someone say, like, I know you're liking my songs, you'll know this one, but it's the one that bought my house because they were like, they wrote a song and another pop star sang it.

So like they were truly dedicated primarily to the craft of songwriting, so or so.

And they tried to bring that in with Diane Warren in the list to say, there are some songwriters whose names you don't know because they're not like rock bands.

Yeah.

Or those like three country writers that they.

Yeah, there's one as one spot on the.

List, which and even country music lists, they're like, I'm glad you're including us.

But does that really get at it?

That is interesting, though, that it's, songwriters, the best songwriters.

But, it seems like all of these people are also like performing artists.

So, like, there's a lot of people who write great songs for our favorite artists who like, you know, a lot of people don't know, like, because they don't a lot of people don't really go into the credits of things like nowadays.

So there's that curiosity.

They did, but they did have, Brian and Eddie Holland, the Hall, Holland, Dozier Holland, songwriting.

Trio.

And Carole King, who wrote for a lot of other artists.

So I think they were a little bit trying to include, artists, songwriters who were not necessarily performers.

I mean, Carole King was.

The other thing is like, kind of like the, you know, like, like music that's not for commercial purposes is totally missing, right?

Like art, music and, you know, avant garde song stuff that's like probably I mean, including one of those would have really made people upset, including someone who who's, like, singing like atonal songs or whatever that would have been.

That would have been a much more bold choice than adding like.

Yeah, so like John Adams opera songs or something?

Not even sure.

Not.

Yeah.

Anyway.

But I'm going to give everyone just quickly here at the end, perhaps a chance to either say where they can find some of your songs or learn more about writing songs or something else you want them to go listen and be curious about, since that definitely feels like it turned into our theme today.

Oh.

Oh yeah, we've just got a minute.

So.

Right.so.

So we find Risa, the writer.

That's right.

And you lead some open mics.

Right.

And songwriting.

Nights.

Yes, I do, yeah.

If anybody would like to write a song, I like to help people write songs too.

So any age.

Cool.

And Dave.

I teach, I teach at Hochstein.

And I have, like, a lot of I'm always putting out comic books and stuff like that.

So just look me up online.

And Aguero here, you can find the Rock Rochester overture.com.

And and or aguero.com.

You have some of your writing about music is really helped me.

Even someone who spent years with music understand more about it.

So thanks so much to receive the writer Dave Chisholm and Ruggero for discussing songwriting and music.

Thanks to, Rob and Julie in the booth and all the crew.

Happy Friday everyone!

Hope you enjoy listening to music, exploring it, and perhaps learning more a bit while you're on the way.

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