From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour is made near the finish line of a road race.

It's a ten k, a, five K. Runners and walkers approaching the end of the race might notice small memorial signs.

Each represents someone who has passed away, lost to addiction.

The race benefits an organization called ROCovery and ROCovery is all about celebrating recovery from addiction.

There are many such stories, but every year, thousands of Americans lose their struggle with addiction to the numbers in some ways, are improving.

In this hour, we'll examine why.

We'll talk about what is working and what is not working.

It's a chance to discuss addiction and the ways to treat it with people with a lot of experience working in this community.

And my guests this hour include in studio Jonathan Westfall, executive director of ROCovery.

Welcome to the program.

Nice to see you.

Thanks for having us.

Evan.

And Kara Izzo was a peer support program manager for ROCovery.

Welcome to you as well.

Thank you.

In a few minutes, we're going to be joined by Rob Kent, President of Kent Strategic Advisors and a former former official in the Biden White House who worked on addiction issues there and is now working in a number of states on this issue, especially here in New York state.

So when I look at some of the numbers, in a way, if we just reduce this to statistics, we could feel like there is something positive happening.

Over the last 3 to 5 years, we were averaging around 100,000 deaths a year from addiction overdose.

Last year it was about 70,000.

Two years ago was 80,000.

So it looks like a downward trajectory.

Those numbers are still really high.

Yeah, but at least it's going away.

I feel strange to say, but a better direction.

Is it better?

I mean, is it are we doing better with this?

So yes.

And the short answer is yes.

Okay.

And it's through concerted efforts.

You know, we believe in the, harm reduction field now being called overdose prevention.

In that field alone, there has been, concerted efforts over the last several years, in saving lives.

And what that means is helping people, use more safely.

So if that is what they choose, rather than, getting sober, and reaching out for ROCovery if they choose to continue to use their drug of choice.

Efforts have been made to, to, sort of make that a little bit safer.

And so what you're seeing is, and, less overdose, overdose deaths, there's been, a great deal of Narcan, you know, flooded in the community.

Testing strips, things like that, that are, that are helping people stay alive, longer in the hopes are helping them stay alive longer.

So they will, you know, eventually get to a place where they do want to reach out for ROCovery and connection.

You want to add to that here?

Well, I do, because I think that the numbers can be hard to, rationalize sometimes because even though we might be seeing fewer overdose deaths, you know, like John says, there's a lot of Narcan out there.

So a lot of the overdoses you might not even hear about, they might not even be reported because people have Narcan, which is wonderful, you know?

So they're not it's not a death, but there's still a lot of overdoses.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that context certainly matters.

Everything that I'm reading about, what is attributing to the decline in deaths points to Narcan is one of, if not the lead factor.

And we've seen Narcan in the last decade become very much more common.

Certainly.

And but one thing that we haven't seen become more common than, I think maybe 7 or 8 years ago, there was a lot of push for supervised use sites and, and those that kind of structure.

There was talk about what was happening in Philadelphia and Ithaca was looking at it and, you know, there was talk about a lot of communities looking at it.

And we passed that.

Jonathan, I mean, a supervised use.

Is it one thing to say harm reduction is helping people who are choosing to keep using and trying to stay alive, but supervised use, is that out of sort of vogue right now in either in the movement or at least in policymaking circles?

Well, definitely in policymaking circles.

You would agree with that?

Yeah.

Policy making.

The term harm reduction is being phased out.

It's overdose prevention now.

So why what's wrong with harm.

Well, the current administration doesn't like that term.

They don't like the anything that that would be viewed as enabling people to continue to use is not is not being supported by the current administration.

So, I think we've at least currently, that's why we're seeing a lot of talk of overdose prevention sites or safe use facilities kind of go away, even though it's evidence based.

It's been proven to work in Canada and other countries.

And we started to dip our toes in the water here in the United States.

That's kind of gone away because of that.

Did you think maybe 5 or 7 years ago we would have seen more supervised use sites in this country?

I think we were definitely headed in that direction.

Yeah, there was a lot of talk about it.

There was a lot of, there was a lot of people asking questions about it, even within government.

And those questions are not being asked anymore.

But to be fair, I don't think it's just the Trump administration that opposes at least supervised use.

I mean, there are plenty of democratic, democratically run cities, Democratic policymakers who have been sort of repelled by it.

Well, for sure.

And I think that's because stigma is still alive and well in our communities and our society.

I think that people don't really understand it and what they don't understand, they fear.

And it has to be bad people using we don't want people to use.

Well, if people are going to use anyway, it certainly behooves us to make sure that they do it safely and and and it and they don't understand why there's if we know where they're doing it and they're doing it with safer materials and safer instruments, there's also the opportunity for connection where they're doing it as well, where that many of the facilities in other countries are staffed by peers, who are in recovery and know how to connect with folks.

So there's a there's a chance for connecting with people, at these facilities as well.

So there's a great benefit to it as well.

And as I said, I mean, the results are, are are what they are.

They've, they're, you know, they're effective.

Well, and we're not going to spend the hour on this topic, especially because right now we don't see a lot of supervised use sites in this country.

Right.

But in talking in the last decade to local policymakers who have explored this concept, one of the things I heard a lot from members of city councils, people who run cities, was, you know, you have to put this somewhere and everywhere that they looked, they had neighbors who didn't want that there.

And it's hard.

It's a hard sell to tell a neighborhood there's gonna be a supervised use site here.

You know, when there's kids playing on the street and, you know, people looking to sort of build community.

And I'm not saying you can't build community with people who are addicted.

I mean, like, of course you can.

Yeah, but the pushback was often from neighbors who are going like, okay, but this is the ultimate Nimby because this, you know, we've got kids and we don't want to we don't want this here.

So, so do you think that there is a a compromise for that?

Is there a way a solution for that?

Well, I do I think that, you know, if we were to there's a bar on every corner that is a that's a safe consumption site, right, for alcohol, which kills more people every year in this country than opioids.

Right.

It's the third leading cause, preventable cause of death in this country year after year.

Yeah.

We put a bar on every corner.

There's a problem going on in Fairport right now.

You know, with the number of criminal activities going on after hours at bars.

But nobody bats an eye when there's a new bar that goes up on the corner, right.

The methadone clinics face the same problems.

When putting a methadone clinic in, they face backlash in communities.

But this is actually helping people, overcome their addiction or or manage their symptoms of their addiction.

So it's it's there's no evidence to say that this is going to increase crime in communities.

I, I understand sort of the 30,000ft view.

Is that what you would say to neighbors as well?

I mean, if you literally had neighbors going, I don't think I want this here.

Convince me otherwise.

What would you say?

Well, I would say, what is the neighborhood look like right now?

Are they dealing with like so we're talking about areas like North Clinton, which, you know, we do outreach and and some of the, you know, the open air markets that are going on right now and needles being on the ground has always been a huge problem in those areas.

Is that, preferable?

Because, if we were to put sites in areas like that that would alleviate some of those problems that exist today.

Right now, let me ask about how you would describe what harm reduction.

And I'm mean, by the way, I'm going to use the term harm reduction, mostly this area, just because I belong to the George Carlin School of say what you mean to me, what you say you don't have to always sort of bubble wrap everything.

And I think harm reduction is, is a pretty direct way to describe what people are trying to do in this field.

So again, apart from supervised use, tell me about the other ways that harm reduction works.

How do you see it?

I mean, harm reduction.

Yeah.

I mean, we're fine with you using that term because it's impossible to answer overdose prevention.

Overdose prevention, which it also is.

Oh, no, of course it is.

But harm reduction I think is more direct.

And what we're talking about it is and, you know, I mean, it'll be said harm reduction is putting your seatbelt on.

You know, it's dangerous to drive your car.

You're reducing your harm by wearing a seatbelt.

So, you know, it's not saying that doing drugs is.

Yes.

Let's just keep doing this.

It's helping reduce the harm so that honestly, in our world of recovery, we're hoping it's until somebody feels like they want to find ROCovery.

But but truly for it's it's what they want it to be.

Harm reduction might be I'm going to continue to do this the rest of my life.

And I'm not looking for recovery, but I want to stay alive.

I'm going to ask a clumsy question, and maybe both of you can address it.

But for the person who says, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life, do they need someone to tell them, like, look, we're going to work with you, and it may not be tomorrow or next week or next month or next year that you stop using, but it's important instead of the idea that eventually you will stop using it.

Is it too permissive?

I think it's what I'm asking.

So I feel like it's kind of, what you just said, you know, say what you mean.

You know, to me, that's what I would say to somebody, you know, I want to help you in the way that you want to be helped.

And if you want to do that in a way that's going to reduce your harm and stay alive.

But in reality, I would love for you to find ROCovery.

Okay.

So it's kind of a both hand approach.

Okay.

How do you see it?

Jonathan.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with her more.

It really is what we hope to do is to model that life that shows how wonderful and how full and how active.

And, you know, we've experienced things in our in our own recovery journeys that have just been beyond our wildest dreams.

And, and and we don't need to say that we can just show that, like our lives are an example of that for people that we connect with.

But but there's no judgment here.

And if somebody wants to continue using and that's working for them, then that's up to them.

We believe in a self-directed life and being person centered.

But if they're saying to us, you know, I'm experiencing some difficulty here in this area of my life, we kind of try and work with them and see we can can not get better.

And how can it get better and, and connect people with resources.

So if they're having, you know, food scarcity or housing, issues or, a lack of, social supports, you know, we help connect them with those resources and along the way, just talk to them.

Just talk to them like human beings.

That's literally what we do.

I mean, and certainly not what everybody's different.

Something that works for one person might not work for the next.

Yeah.

What worked for you?

Well, clearly, ROCovery worked for me.

You know, just quickly, my journey was ever since I was 11 or 12 years old, you know, I started experiencing, consequences of my, my drinking and my drug use, and all the way until I was, you know, fast forward 47 years old, through, you know, legal problems, through all kinds of life circumstances.

There were no consequences big enough for me to stay sober longer than 6 or 9 months.

That's a lot of years.

You started at 11.

My first blackout drinking was probably around 11 or 12.

And so in all that time, six, nine months was about all I could get.

You know, I'd be court mandated to go to outpatient or I'd go to jail or, you know, whatever it was that I got me sober, six, nine months is about all I could put together.

And I'd be back out again.

When I turned 47, and I got sober again this last time, I, you know, was introduced to ROCovery and started doing outreach, with Johnny Cash for our original, one of our original founders.

And, and it gave me a purpose and meaning in my life.

And, you know, as of today, I'm nine and a half years sober.

February 17th of 20 or February 27th of 2017, was the last time I had a drink.

And so that, for me, was what I needed.

I needed to, to have this goal, this this purpose, in this direction in my life.

And then it was further spurred on by our, you know, our physical activity.

I'm not someone who really likes to sit around and talk very much like this.

Our we do.

This is about all I'm going to be able to man today.

I need to be up and moving.

I need to be doing things.

And and in the process of doing that, we connect with people like through our, you know, through our physical activities, through climbing mountains, through running, you know, trails, through lifting weights in the gym.

We're we're doing that, but we're also connecting with people and talking and being really real.

Like when we're doing physical activities, we can drop all the masks and all the, you know, the, the pretense of what we're doing and really connect on a deeper level.

So nine plus years coming up on a decade sober.

Yeah.

Mean if you're watching on YouTube, you can see you look great.

That makes actually like a lot younger than I look.

And I know you feel good.

Do you think about drinking?

Do you think about drugs?

I don't, because it's not a part of who I am anymore.

And, and and to your point, everybody responds differently to everything, right?

Like, so what works for me isn't going to necessarily work for somebody else, right?

Right.

But also by the same token, I use a bunch of different stuff.

I use 12 step, I use, you know, refuge recovery meetings, I use ROCovery, I use physical activity, I use and that could look very different on different days.

So even me, me today and me six months from now, it could be very different.

So I think part of why I'm asking is because, you know, I was looking at, picking up journalist and podcaster Katie Herzog's book, she writes about her own alcoholism.

And, the book and in part is a it's a call to think about recovery, not just in terms of you're either cold turkey or you're not.

You're either 12 step complete and you're in recovery or you're not.

And the struggle that people have in in seeing it as kind of a sliding scale where there are different experiences.

And part of that is because a lot of people know somebody who's been through addiction, through alcoholism and can't even be around alcohol.

And I understand that.

I mean, like, I understand just through talking to loved ones how difficult that can be.

Can you be in a bar?

Can you be around people drinking?

So it's funny that you say this because I was just recently on a trip in Europe, and it was a group trip, a run station.

And I was with ten other people who were drinking.

I was the only sober one there.

I can remove myself from situations.

And, you know, we had group dinners and things like that, and it was it was uncomfortable for me.

Would I like to be in Italy and France and drinking red wine?

Absolutely.

But I know I can't.

And so that for me that I can take myself out of that situation.

I choose not to go to bars.

I choose not to be in those environments because I know for me it's a slippery slope.

There's an old cliche in the rooms and and in recovery, you know, if you hang around a barbershop long enough, you're going to get a haircut.

And I'm a big believer in that.

If I, if I suddenly I'm like, oh, yeah, I can hang out of bars and stuff like that and I'll be fine for me, that's just the start of of things going bad.

You know, we talk about, sober bars and things like that.

And for me, again, I love that they're there.

I know that you guys, I actually was just talking with Bob from all of our earlier today, and you and you've had him on.

Oh, yeah.

And I love those guys.

And I love what they're doing.

But for me, it's a triggering environment.

I cannot even in all for even I. Yeah, even be alcohol free.

But I'm going through the motions, right?

Right.

My brain doesn't tell the difference between this glass that looks like a cocktail, whether it has alcohol or not.

Alcohol.

It's going through the motions of doing it right.

So it's not.

It's just a matter of time before I go.

I wonder what that tastes like with alcohol in it and if I can handle this.

So it just but for me, again, I just bring it back to me.

I can play that tape.

And I know I've been on the planet 56 years now.

I know, I know my behavior and I know my I know my patterns.

And I know that eventually that's what it's going to lead to.

So I just choose not to.

Yeah, I think I'm, I like to explore individual stories, not because I think, well, this is every person in recovery story.

Every person in recovery has their own story.

I mean, it literally is like snowflakes.

Everybody is different.

Yeah.

What I think is interesting is in this time where the Trump administration doesn't like the term harm reduction and people are running away from that or saying that it's too permissive for you.

You would not benefit from someone saying, hey, just have one drink, you'd be good.

But there are people with alcoholism who would tell you, I think I can, sure, and I think I can manage that.

And for some people that might be denial.

For some that might be true.

I mean, how do you kind of explore that?

I want you to kind of describe for those of us who are friends and loved ones of people in recovery, how we manage not being, quote, too permissive or at least probing effectively.

Yeah.

When someone says, I think I can handle a little, I think I can do this.

And I want to say like, I love you and I want to trust you, and I want you to be okay.

Yeah.

How do you do that?

You do that by going to Al-Anon meetings, because guess what?

It's not my job, okay?

It's not my job to police how somebody else lives their life.

I worry about me and what I do and everything that's in my little hula hoop that I can control.

That's what I worry about.

And then I talk to people and I just help them understand.

And I'm going to let Kara chime in on this, because I know she's chomping at the bit to talk about this, and she's really great with with stuff, like this.

But yeah, it's not my job.

And I try and remind myself of that when I talk to somebody and I ask them, how's that working for you?

And if it's working great for them, then awesome.

More power to them.

If they can do that, that's great.

I know I can't do it, and that's the only thing that I have to worry about.

Yeah.

So floor is yours for your story here.

Go ahead.

Well, you know, I just I think that my own experience, like, I felt like admitting that, you know, at the time, I don't really use the term alcoholic anymore, but at the time, admitting I'm an alcoholic, that was really hard.

And so I think that holds people back because they're afraid to say that word.

And so people well, I don't know if I'm an alcoholic.

I don't know if I'm this.

And so I will then stop drinking and see if it makes you feel better.

And if you find that it's challenging to do that, you know, then maybe look at different, you know, different options or talk to somebody because, you know, if I find that when I stop drinking my life is better, then why wouldn't I stay that way?

You know?

But if it's challenging, then maybe I need some support.

There's something interesting going on with with Gen Z and a little bit of Gen O, Gen Z, and then it's alphas.

I don't know, millennial millennials are kind of millennials.

I'm sorry guys, you're old now to like me.

No.

It's you know, it's the the teens and 20 somethings who are really drinking a lot less.

And there's a lot of talk about, health culture, some of it, I think, not very healthy and driven by influencer culture online, some of it pretty healthy.

Do you think that we as a society is that is that there's sort of a fad for a generation, or do you think, would it surprise you if we see a lot less alcohol consumption in the future by choice?

Well, no, it wouldn't surprise me, I think, because there is, you know, to some level, this wellness movement, the skeptic in me says that smoking marijuana is kind of on the rise with that group.

So, you know, I it is that's a that is true.

Yeah.

So I think sometimes it's still that like trying to be something different, feeling a certain way and wanting to feel different, you know, and how we go about doing that.

Okay, I'm going to say also before I introduce our next guest, I'm just going to say one of the thing that's like, really probably I shouldn't say, but you know, this is the public square and we can talk about anything, right?

So my personal like feeling about marijuana is like, if alcohol is going to be legal, I don't know how you make marijuana illegal.

I understood the arguments there.

Now that it's been largely recreationally legalized, I find myself going like, oh, maybe we shouldn't have done that.

And I don't know, like, I'm not.

By the way, this is not me.

Like calling for a ban or taking an official position.

I'm working through how I feel like in real time, because when you walk down the street or you go through to go different places and it's all you smell and it's really powerful.

You know, maybe I'm being unfair.

Maybe I don't know how I feel other than I don't have like a firm feeling on it.

And I thought by now I would, I thought I'd be like, oh, it's fine.

It's like, whatever it is.

Or how could you regulate that?

But now I'm like, I don't know.

Well, I mean, I'm thinking it's the whole am I too permissive thing, you know, it doesn't matter.

I mean, alcohol wasn't legal when I drank it at 13, you know, so it's people are going to smoke marijuana or drink alcohol whether or not it's legal.

But more will if it's legal, won't they?

I, my 13 year old self would disagree I guess.

But okay.

So you know, I think that's where you know that just sounds more, you know, political financial as opposed to what is somebody actually using to make themselves feel different than they actually are.

And what kind of support could they use?

Go ahead John.

Well, I think that the I think that there's this is sort of the two headed monster because there was legalization, which we should have just called decriminalization.

Yeah, right.

It's what should have happened a long time ago.

And then there's commercialization, which is really what happened.

And it happened very quickly and too quickly, to the point where there wasn't a real good plan in rolling it out.

It was just here it is.

And the pessimist to me is looking at legislators saying, we can tax this.

We can get money in the, out of this.

And then it just it just rolled out like crazy.

Before we really thought about, we thought things through, and came up with a plan and I think that a lot of times, law enforcement doesn't really know what to do about it and, and doesn't it doesn't feel comfortable doing anything about it.

But, like, you can't drink in public parks.

Why are we allowing like, we went out for a group paddle and went for ice cream afterwards.

And there were people smoking pot in the parking lot, and there was, you know, 15 sober people there being triggered like crazy by the smell of marijuana just wafting.

There's families there and little kids there.

And and people do it because it's legal now.

But it it's not legal everywhere.

And I don't think that that's fully understood.

There's public parks.

You're not supposed to be able to smoke in right then.

And and maybe that's like at the root of my experience, which, by the way, it's hypocritical for me to even say what I've said because I'm a someone who has a couple of glasses of wine a week and, you know, like, so am I the ultimate hypocrite in even, like, musing about this?

Maybe alcohol shouldn't be legal, I don't know.

But to to Kerry's point, just to legalizing something, criminalizing something doesn't always stop the consumption of it.

So the better question is, how do you get more people in recovery?

How do you work better with better and more populations?

And so part of why ROCovery's here today is they've got a big event coming up on Sunday, September 13th.

It is it's an event.

It's it's an annual, isn't it, for you.

It's a it's a road race.

It's a ten K, five K. And it's happening this time at Mendon Pond Park.

That's correct.

What do you want people to know about this?

You want everyone there?

We want everyone there.

Yeah, everyone listening to the sound of your voice should be there.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

So it is.

It's our 12th annual, actually, in the last several years, it's been at many Ponds Park.

So it's a road and trail.

And it's challenged.

So there's push ups, burpees and squats to go along with it.

If that's what you choose to do.

And you can run it, you can walk it.

We have lots of families that come out with strollers and dogs and and just go out and make it a family event.

And it's people from all over the community.

So it's, it's allies.

It's people in recovery.

It's there to it's because it's recovery month.

We do it to support folks in recovery.

And we do it to memorialize the people that we've lost to the, to the consequences of addiction as well.

And, and so it's for a lot of different reasons.

And, and it's a great event.

And, one thing that we, we don't mention nearly enough is it, folks?

In early recovery.

So ROCovery is free.

Our gym and all of our classes and events are free.

And we do that because, we want to take away the barriers to recovery and connection for folks.

Right.

And so people who are in early recovery oftentimes are dealing with treatment or, you know, just coming out of incarceration or obviously don't have an income to for a gym membership.

Let's say, well, we want to remove that barrier.

So we're free to the public.

Well, to be in the race, we will also scholarship people in early recovery.

All they got to do is just send us an email and they get into the race for free as well.

So how do they get registered?

They go to our website, ROCovery ny.org.

And there's a tab on there for our race or go to run, sign up and search ROCovery and it'll bring up the race and you can register right there again coming up on September 13th.

That is a Sunday at the beautiful Mendon Pond Park.

And our guests from ROCovery used to be ROCovery, ROCovery fitness.

Now it's ROCovery and it is ROCovery fitness.

But it's also a lot more now.

And that's why they're here talking about what they're doing.

As we try to contextualize what the data is telling us and what's also what the human stories are telling us.

When we come back.

I'm going to welcome Rob Kent to the studio.

He's president of Kent Strategic Advisors, worked in the Biden administration on this issue, has a lot of experience working at the state level on this issue.

We're going to come right back on connections.

Coming up in our second, our connection Summer sessions is spending this week looking back at our favorite conversations with astrophysicist Adam Frank.

And there's been many over the years.

This hour we're taking a look at his book, The Blind Spot.

Adam Frank argues that too often there's science on one side and religion or spirituality on the other.

But what about that gray area in the middle where human experience matters?

We'll talk about it next hour.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Carolla Center, supporting residents to become active members of the community, from developing life skills to gaining independence.

Mary Carey, Yola center Transforming Lives of People with disabilities More online at.

Mary Carrie ola.org this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Rob Kent, president of Kent Strategic Advisors, is in studio with us.

Just got off the plane and right to the connection studio.

You are a very busy man and a well traveled man.

Welcome back to the program.

Thanks.

Good to be here.

And so for the listeners, you did work in the Biden administration, doing what I was the general counsel at the white House Office of National Drug Control Policy.

Okay.

And, how do you think the current National Office on Drug Control is doing?

They're doing you don't want to elaborate on.

I think, you know, they have different priorities.

And, you know, I tell people all the time, it's sort of like preaching at this point, you know, you can criticize and castigate people.

They're still in power, or you can try to work with them.

And and I do think they're supportive of ROCovery.

I think they have some other ideas that maybe some folks don't agree with.

But, I'm finding the ability to work with them.

So you're a much bigger critic of what states are doing right now.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So we're going to talk about that in a second.

Just briefly, what do you make of the Trump administration wanting to move away from the phrase harm reduction and feeling like harm reduction is maybe too permissive?

Well, you know, so.

For decades, there's been prohibitions on the use of federal funds for harm reduction services.

You know, we did a little bit of work on it when we were in the Biden administration.

But most of it happens at the state level.

Most policy happens at the state level.

What you you know, I knew it before I went to the white House.

But what you understand is they really try to drive decision making based on the money they dole out.

But the federal government is really the funder of work and leaves it to the states.

So the states that want to do harm reduction services will still do harm reduction services.

Those that don't.

And there are some that don't, and even certain forms like, you know, naloxone distributions, harm reduction, syringe, you know, sterile syringe, programs are some don't want to do them, some do.

But, you know, I'll give you a great story.

So Kentucky Red state, what the blue governor but yeah red state.

Well but everything else is right.

It is.

And most likely to stay that way.

But, and he's a pretty moderate guy.

Yes.

Yeah.

But, they had a huge cost issue at the state level for HIV Aids and Hep, and it was driven by intravenous drug users.

So they have their own state level Office of Drug Control.

And the guy who runs it, Van Ingram's a law enforcement guy.

And, you know, he looked at it from a cost perspective.

And they might have now per capita, more syringe service programs in any state in the country.

He didn't get there because he loved it, I don't believe.

But he got there because it made sense.

And actually it proved itself out.

And I tell people a lot of times you know, I don't spend a lot of time trying to win people's hearts and minds.

It's a there's not enough time.

And so focus more on getting them to trust you enough to let you do things, and then you'll prove that it works and maybe they'll like it at some point.

When they see it and they see what happens.

Well, let me read a little bit from my, colleague Rachel Stevens, recent reporting on the local use of opioid settlement fund dollars here, recall reports.

Governor Kathy Hochul recently announced that nearly $6 million in state funding has gone toward improving services for young people affected by substance use disorders.

The funding was provided through the state's Opioid Settlement Fund.

The money was allocated to 12 existing ROCovery centers statewide, two of which are in the Rochester region.

The center for Community Alternatives in Rochester and You Connect Care Behavioral Health in Batavia received roughly $500,000 each to expand their youth recovery programing.

I'm curious to know, in general, if you think the state is using opioid settlement money.

Well, and then some of the criticism is, well, once it gets to the local municipalities, there's not a lot of oversight how it's used.

So what's going on.

So that is a good investment.

The $6 million.

Absolutely.

Get the money on the ground with the people doing the work.

Right.

The issue in New York is they're the biggest issue and it's not a New York issue.

It's a it's a national issue.

There is just a lack of transparency.

We don't know how this money is being spent, you know, and there's not a lot of engagement with stakeholders where they impact decision making.

And so I think New York's sitting on a ton of money.

I think they're doing it on purpose, because I think they're just trying to wait and see what might happen.

And, you know, for anyone that they're too slow in distributing the money.

Yeah, yeah, they're too slow.

And and look, some of that's driven by the number crunchers, the budget people, I get it.

But you know, and it's what's harmed it, to be honest, from getting it to be more aggressive.

You know, the world thinks we've somehow solved the overdose epidemic because we went from 110,000 to 70,000, that, if you think 70,000 deaths from a preventable medical condition is success, find something else to do.

Get out of the business that's not anywhere near.

And by the way, that number is an understatement, because there's a lot of deaths that aren't classified, and it misses the point.

When I was at on DCP, we did as best we could an analysis, and for every one fatal overdose, there's probably at least ten nonfatal.

And what are we doing to, you know, to Bishop, you know, Desmond Tutu, why are we moving up the river before they fall in?

So we've got work to do.

The money needs to get out there.

And you have there's not just the lack of transparency, right.

The state law says they can't use it to replace or supplant current spending.

People ask me, are they I just honestly, I don't know because they don't put enough information out for us to make that determination.

And why are they so opaque?

I don't do they have to be can they be more transparent?

Absolutely, absolutely.

And you know what?

If they were.

Yeah.

I don't know if you've seen any of these opioid settlement fund advisory board meetings at the state level.

It's like, forget turn it into a soap opera.

That's the best thing on TV because it it's just and it all flows from a lack of trust because a lack of sharing of information.

And it's been that way.

It was that way before that was set up.

So the money's not getting out, and then it's not getting out at the volume it needs to.

And and so for instance, the the addiction care system, the health care has an issue with recruiting and retaining staff.

And, and you know, the addiction care system is below water, but you know, hospitals, health care, doctors offices, mental health.

And then go down about ten rungs and you're in the deep end with the addiction care system.

I have folks I work with, they have upwards of 20% unfilled vacancies, and they're so they can't treat enough people and so there's no money of significance going into workforce issues.

The state is using some of it for harm reduction purposes.

But what you really have there is like, you know, survival of the well.

Well, Oasis wants to try to recreate harm reduction.

Department of health has been doing harm reduction for a half a century.

They sort of figured it out.

So why isn't the money going where the people who know how to get it out the door, get it out the door so well and control, trust and control and you know, the state constantly.

Right.

We we've made available the most money of anyone in the, in the country.

Was that the checks in the mail.

It's it's on the way to the man.

So you're saying when they say made available, you're saying is that if you're on the mountain money get a staff made available the money out there.

And by the way, what came up in this last year, at last fall, the board at a public meeting asked, hey, by chance, state has this money that's not being spent generated any interest?

Yeah.

$35 million.

I want to know their bankers because I'd love to earn interest like that level.

That means you got the best interest rates in the world, or you're not spending the money.

So.

But that came when we talk about transparency.

Someone asked the question.

It wasn't volunteered by the state that that was available.

It was appropriated in this year's budget.

But it's pursuant to a plan created by the Oasis commissioner.

I've seen the plan yet.

Where's the money?

Right.

And I just I just did a formal request because that's just me.

There's another 12 million in interest.

That's already $47 million in the interest that's sitting unspent, unspent, unused.

And that's on top of probably, I would guess, at least 100 million that's not committed.

So so let me just ask one other question here.

And then Kathy in Rochester, Jack and Grace will take your phone calls.

I've got emails here.

And I take Rob's point.

By the way, you know, when our guests from ROCovery talk about trying to go in a better direction, no one is celebrating 700,000 or 70, 70,000 deaths.

In addiction.

I think we all agree that's horrifying.

It's better than 100,000.

The hope is that it is a representative of something that is getting better.

And, Rob, you've worked in the white House.

You understand how politics can inflect public policy.

So your frustration with New York State being slow to act.

I want to just ask you briefly here.

I mean, I'm not going to ask you to sort of psychoanalyze the governor, but nothing would be well, not nothing, but this would be very good for a politically if this money got spent and fewer people died in New York state, became this national leader in driving down overdose deaths because they're using the money well.

So why what do you think is actually going on here?

Like I said, I think they're parking the money because, I think their rainy day fund, to be honest, I think it's being held because what might come from Washington, there are no cuts, by the way, in addiction funding anywhere from the federal government.

You know, the the Medicaid rules will have some impact.

But if you're in treatment or you're in early recovery, you're not obligated to work, you know, meet those work requirements to stay out exemptions.

And by the way, and this is a point that gets missed all the time.

They lump our folks in with everybody else.

Folks in recovery from addiction get better, get jobs, pay taxes, buy homes, do all the things we want people to do.

Most of them, when they get a job, they get health insurance.

They don't need Medicaid.

And if they do, what's wrong with that?

Right?

Why?

How are they not able to pay a wage that could, you know, or offer that benefits?

So our folks get better and they want to work.

And so, I just think they're, they're hedging.

But I'll tell you, here's something that really bothers me.

So the Purdue bankruptcy, it's been settled either.

So the state's going to get probably another $250 million from the Purdue settlement.

That money should be taken by the legislature and set up a compensation fund.

Right.

We did it after 911.

We compensated victims directly.

There are families who formed the basis for these lawsuits who aren't getting a damn penny from that bankruptcy settlement.

We should give them money.

You have grandparents raising grandkids at this point.

So there's no kinship money.

There's no daycare money.

So get take that money, put it in a separate pool and create a compensation fund and give it to the people who have been impacted.

And you know, and and I love it.

I remember I'm a reformed government person.

Right.

And in the private sector now every oh you can't do that.

No.

You don't want to do it.

Is it hard.

Yeah.

Government's hard.

If you don't want hard go do something else.

But it's not impossible.

Absolutely not.

I did things like that.

You know, people would come to us little ways and say, how do we do this?

And by the way, when you deal with high level people, now's not in their dictionary.

So I will figure out a way government can figure out a way if it wants to figure out a way.

All right.

Let me get some feedback from listeners here.

Let's get Kathy and Jack and then I'll read some emails.

Hey, Kathy in Rochester up first.

Go ahead.

I'm concerned because you mentioned the widespread use of pot in our city and it's and how it's spilling out on our streets.

I have a question about, is there anything we can do about the fact that I live very close up to another house and the people in it are smoking nonstop pot, and it's blowing into my bedroom and into my house.

Other than having to close my windows, is there any regulation about proximity?

I don't know if we have an exact answer.

But what do you think over there, Jonathan?

What would you say?

So it's so funny that she calls in with us because I've had the same problem.

I live in around two.

Quite.

And, I have several neighbors who smoke, as often.

And I have the same problem that I have to shut my windows and turn on my air conditioning, and that's that.

And that's that.

And I and I have reached out to the town, to ask, is there anything that I can do about this?

And there really isn't, so far as I've found yet now I will, I start going to town board meetings and things like that to see if we can get something.

I love hearing my friend Rob across the table all the time.

Because I love that that you can do anything you want to do.

If you want to do it.

Can we come up with some kind of legislation that discusses proximity or where you can smoke in your house, as opposed to outside your house, where it's affecting other people?

Because it is.

It's real.

Me being in recovery, it's very triggering for me.

People grow it in their yards.

I can smell it constantly.

Every time I go out to my driveway, I can smell my neighbor's crop.

You know, at the end of the season, is there anything I can do about this?

I, I've, I've asked the question.

I would say the best thing you can do is go out and advocate with your town board, and go to, you know, go to the board meetings, go to your town hall, advocate with your legislators and tell them that this is a real problem.

It is.

I feel your I feel your pain.

Kathy, thank you for the phone call.

Let me grab.

And by the way, if you've if this is the first time you've met Rob Kent on connections, you're never going to meet anybody who is more of a vociferous government.

Can actually do hard things person than Rob.

He has no patience for the, well, government slow.

It's a bureaucrat like, no, if they're not doing it, Rob will tell you they're failing.

Sorry, I don't mean to speak for you, Rob, but it's funny.

Jack and Gary say, Jack, go ahead.

Pro, I have been.

Thank you so much.

And it's a great topic to talk about because it's so common.

You know, I guess I'll come back.

I want to come back to the alcohol.

My, the topic seems to be more aimed at opioids, perhaps, or drugs in general.

But alcohol, it's so difficult to have a close family member and you're watching them kill themselves with alcohol.

The alcohol seems to be shrugged off.

But, I guess I'm coming back to how difficult it is to find long term care because we have a relative in our family, that, I mean, he just can't seem to stop.

And, it's been going on for years now, but to watch them slowly destroy their health and and, the idea of the prevalence of, of alcohol all over the place, and, the, the hard part for me is acceptance that I'm powerless.

I didn't call it control, and I can't cure it, I get it.

But to still watch these people struggle one, with it, with what they have, where they progress so far along, in my opinion.

Not just like a drug addict with every day, every day.

And they can't see it.

They don't see it.

And, and you try and line up long term care, it's got to come from him.

But the difficulty of just living with that and, and anyway, but I think we, we're, I don't know, we don't seem to have enough care or available easy access for people to get things they need.

It's just not long enough.

And it's heartbreaking.

So thanks for listening.

Thank you.

Jack.

You go ahead and thanks.

And, I'm sorry, you know, that you're going through that and that your loved one is, Yeah.

I mean, you know, treatment at his core is voluntary.

So if you don't want to get better, you're not going to.

That being said, I mean, I'm sitting in a room with peers.

There are people who can who they might not be willing to go to treatment.

What are they willing to talk to somebody who's been through it to maybe start a start a process.

And and in terms of, you know, if your loved one wants something like that, we can make it happen.

We could get them into treatment.

But you know, the thing, any makes a really good point because alcohol is the there were two years in the mid 20 teens where admissions to Oasis treatment programs, opioids exceeded alcohol.

Alcohol's been the number one reason people go to treatment.

It's probably 45 to 50% of admissions to treatment programs.

Is alcohol.

And and more people die from alcohol related deaths and they're awful deaths.

I have friends who've died from alcohol.

It if you don't overdose, it destroys your body is what it does.

Your organs, your ability to function.

So, you know, I would love to help the gentleman who just called.

We can help.

We can.

We can at least make the offer.

I mean, obviously, if if his loved one doesn't want to get better, doesn't mean people won't try to help him figure that out.

But, you know, I'm really sorry that that's going on in his life.

Let me mention a couple of things, the events coming up here, and then I'm going to read one more email here.

Why are you in Rochester today Rob Kemp?

So I'm here for the Scotty B event.

It's got to be Overdose Awareness Day today.

Yeah.

So there's the 31st is International Overdose Awareness Day.

And people hold events around the country, around the world.

Rochester.

You know, my experience, this is a pretty cool place for things that are going on.

You know, we were actually involved with with John and John at the beginning.

We put some seed money in to try to get them going.

And what happened always happens.

They take it and go way beyond anything we ever thought was possible.

And look at them now.

Yeah.

No, but it because it's people give a shit.

Sorry.

Oh sorry.

They have to blow.

Well they care a lot okay people Caroline thank you.

Rob Gunn.

Sorry.

But so Scotty B so Becky and Paul Baker, their son Scott died a number of years ago.

They started an event, International Plaza.

And people show up.

It's to to remember the folks we've lost.

You know, from my perspective, it's to commit to making things better for other people.

And it's for folks to understand what resources are out there in the community.

It's been, Becky and Paul have stepped back this year, so Stephanie Forester and ROCovery always is now running the event.

And so it's from 3 to 7 in International Plaza, 3 to 7 today.

It is family friendly.

It's a community event.

So great thing.

It's free.

It's open to everyone.

And again that's at International Plaza on North Clinton.

So that's today Sunday September 13th.

Coming up is ROCovery's, annual road race, a ten K, A5K, a walk.

It's all kinds of things down.

Amending Pines Park.

What time in the morning does that thing start?

It starts at 10 a.m.

10 a.m.

so if you want to be part of that, you can still register.

You can bring a whole crew out there.

Where do they find you online to do that?

It's a ROCovery ny.org.

And, of course our social media, we're all over social.

So our Instagram or Facebook everywhere.

How many people are you serving and working with now by the way?

So since we started keeping record in 2016, I think is when we started keeping digital records, we've gotten almost 12,500, questionnaires applications online.

So a little over a little over 12,000 as of today.

Let me just read this briefly from Debbie.

She says, as you, as you embark on these discussions, I feel that the current system fails.

Those that are fighting addiction.

Nobody wakes up one morning and says, today I'm going to be a drug addict.

My daughter passed away in June from heart failure after fighting addiction for 20 years.

And Debbie says hospitals will not treat drug addicts as they do others.

I actually had her sent to Strong Memorial as she was dying in a hospital in the Buffalo Hospital and recommended for her hospice, and she was a drug addict.

And what what kind of a life would she have if they saved her?

They said strong saved her life, but it was temporary.

And she says the current system needs to do a better job of treating addiction.

That's a whole other conversation.

And Debbie, I just want to say, I mean, our hearts break for you and your family.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

And, you know, on a different day, if you want to talk more privately or publicly about that, you know, I'd be open to that conversation.

I'm sorry.

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with that.

If you need community, if you need to find someone, how do people just get involved on a day to day basis with ROCovery the same way they would find us for our run?

So ROCovery ny.org or come out to the center.

Where's the center?

The center's at 1035.

Do we have and we support people out in the community.

It's all about community and connection.

Yeah.

Give us a call, send us an email.

We'll come out and connect with you anywhere you are.

We'll meet people where they are.

Have a great road race.

Run five K, ten K walk.

Sunday, September 13th.

Thank you.

Thank you all for being here.

And Rob Kent, thanks for flying in and talking to us.

Rob is here for Scotty B Overdose Awareness Day.

You'll see him at an international plaza today 3 to 7.

Let's talk.

I know we're we're always in touch with you.

And I always appreciate that.

Let's talk gambling that you want to talk gambling at some point.

Yeah.

Oh, I really want to talk about that.

Is the I. We talk about sports gambling.

Yeah.

Oh okay.

For predictive markets.

Oh, my gambling by a different Rob.

You ringing all of our bells.

We'll do that on a different day.

That's Rob Kent Kenny.

Strategic advisors Kara and Jonathan are with ROCovery, and we've got more connections coming up.

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