From WXXI News.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made with a family trip to the library.

A young boy, his siblings, and his parents packed into the car and drove to their local library, one in the greater Rochester area.

The kid's father, an avid videographer, documented that trip on tape.

He captured some of the children looking through the shelves and choosing books.

And then his son, who was using a wheelchair, not being able to navigate the aisles.

They weren't wide enough, but the wheelchair.

Little did he know that this moment would change the eight year old boy's life.

That boy, Conan Gillis, is now a PhD candidate at Cornell University and a self-advocate.

He has used his experiences, including that one at the library when he was a child, to push for access and equity.

When it comes to spaces, educational environments, and more.

Gillis shares his story in his own words.

In the fourth episode of the Move to include podcast hosted by Noelle Evans.

We'll hear the full episode this hour, and then we're going to talk about the lessons we can learn from Gillis and from his experiences.

I also want to let you know you're going to hear the episode fourth one right now.

If you have not listened to the previous three, please find them.

We're very proud of them.

Aside from doing great work on this, Noelle Evans and the folks involved here, and I'll turn it over to Noelle now.

This is the Move to Include podcast.

I'm Noelle Evans.

Before Conan Gillis was a mathematician or an advocate, he was an eight year old kid who just wanted to use his local library.

But the aisles were too narrow for his wheelchair, and the building just wasn't built with him in mind.

With help from his family, Conan turned that experience into advocacy.

Now, Conan is a PhD candidate, and he's had to speak up for himself throughout his education.

From K through 12 classrooms with formal support plans to the more self-directed world of higher education.

Those experiences helped shape how he thinks about disability, less about the individual and more about the environment around us.

In this conversation, we talk about self-advocacy, the role of family, and what it really means to build systems that work for more people.

Conan, thank you so much for joining me today.

It's good to be here.

Thank you for having me.

To start, do you mind sharing like where your journey with self-advocacy began?

Sure.

I think I was about eight years old, thereabouts.

And my local public library, in Honeoye Falls, where I'm from, was they were building a new one.

The old one was not really wheelchair accessible.

It.

I could kick in the door, but even when I was young and had a, I had a child sized wheelchair, I couldn't really navigate through the shelving.

And it was really hard for me to get a book off the shelves.

And there were other issues with the building that just make it that exactly inviting for people in wheelchairs.

And I was old enough to recognize it, young enough to not really know what to do.

My parents, like my dad, is a incorrigible videographer of my family.

Throughout my life, he's been filming us, giving very interesting things.

Yep.

He, filmed a video he called a family trip to the library, where he brought me and my two younger siblings in the car.

My mom was driving, he was filming, and they were asking us questions as the car was moving.

Interesting take about Tography.

About why do you want.

What do you like about the library?

Why do you want to go to the library?

He questions that you could ask any eight year old, and they gave some sort of interesting answer.

You could give.

And then we arrived at the library and he filmed my siblings and also me going through checking out a book, having trouble reaching a book, having trouble turning my chair around, my siblings grabbing a book, you know, going to the the normal tasks of checking a book out from the library.

It was an interesting moment because I was bored with my disability and had many, health complications throughout my life.

My parents had been indispensable, advocates for me up to that point, but this was the first time I was ever so my dad, because he perspective actively engaged in the process.

Was there something in you that changed, whether it was your worldview or how you viewed yourself or you know, what was going to be the next piece of self-advocacy for you?

I mean, at eight, I mean, I know it's a young age, and I mean, you can feel pretty powerful at eight two.

I think if people show you what you're capable of.

Yeah.

I think it really should take young, I think for a lot of my personal approach to self advocacy and to give some context, most of what I need of physical accommodations that are in some ways.

You won't say obvious, but easy to see once you point them out, say, oh come on and need can and can't get through the shelves that are too narrow.

Of course, the two narrow or go to get in the building.

There's no ramp.

There.

Like tangible.

Yeah okay.

Yeah, yeah.

The very tangible.

And we as a society do have a somewhat well-developed vocabulary about around physical accommodations, at least I've been fortunate that when people when I ask people go, oh yeah, why don't we have that?

Oh yeah, we should have that.

And many other people who live in different contexts, different personal contacts, different social contexts don't have that privilege or that walk, whatever 1st May wish to ascribe it to.

It's probably both.

Probably both.

If I had to guess, but, for me, the notion of, oh, if you point out the issue confidently, you can at least start the conversation to get things going.

It's never that simple.

It's never been mentioned for me.

But that video and the conversation it sparked, the key really was struggling.

That conversation to me in that context, and a lot of the time when I've done advocacy in high school, I advocated for some handicap access buttons to be put on the main entrance doors and the doors of the main entrance.

The predominant response I got was, we don't have those.

We should have those.

Why don't we have those?

What's had those?

Okay.

And it taught me the lesson that if you ask in an instant way, if you ask it politely but confidently, people will listen.

Like, again, I want to reiterate this was only my experience.

In one lifetime, in one state.

It was reaching a point state.

Within one family.

So you know, all of those qualifications have to be borne in mind.

From what you've just been saying.

Can you share how that's shown up for you in education or how you've shown up for yourself.

I guess.

Sure.

There's a big leap in when it comes to disability in education, from going to high school and going get college.

Okay.

High school is but both have significant federal and state oversight regulations requirements, for accommodations and such.

The high school and and before middle school and elementary school levels English in public schooling you have things like IEPs or five or fours.

They go to just good college.

It's much, much less.

Specific.

It's a scripted okay.

The requirements are there, but it's not like there's a special teacher who is assigned to you and you have meetings every so often.

At least this was my experience.

You have meetings every so often, and the principal and vice principals required to attend.

You know that each basically there was an office at your school which can be well or poorly supported, that require you to give you take obligations.

They're going required payroll and also whatever other ones your school may deign to grant you and that really need your yourself advocacy to meet your way.

Because if for me to go to college for individual disability to go to college.

You are currently a PhD candidate at Cornell University, right?

Yes.

And I get my undergraduate, my bachelor's at Cornell as well.

So really the one big jump I've had educationally has been from high school to going out.

And I'll never forget my first tour of campus.

We went there wasn't the usual college tour.

We were driving home.

Dad and I looked at each other, went, you know my two?

What?

Healy.

Okay, hold Ithaca, New York, wonderful cow.

Beautiful cow.

Healy.

Here.

It's gorgeous.

Yeah, they do say.

They say it's.

A. Good idea.

It's both gorgeous and so many gorgeous.

So many hills.

When you're in a wheelchair walking up at these hills, trying to navigate these hills, it was terrifying.

But I applied because I lived two hours away, and that was a point to get a bunch of schools.

Why not?

But I got it and we were like, oh, oh boy, now we have to see if this is possible.

It seems like it is.

Yeah, it is.

What has made it possible, That there were three things that came to play.

One is a well-resourced school that's able to make accommodations in other schools.

We looked at, and we got to them I would have easily been able to make.

And those the other schools were equally motivated, equally well intentioned, equally everything it just the brute fact of the bottom line.

Okay.

Second was my parents were able to literally take time out of their lives for nine years to be my girls half time so that I could live in Ithaca, and that is not that easy.

Can we explore that a bit?

Because I recall you saying before in terms of like having, direct support, that it's it's pretty limited on the how many days and how, yes, how to how you and your family have compensated for that.

Yes.

So I'm eligible through New York Medicaid for 24 seven nursing care.

I require, medically speaking, 24 seven nursing care.

There are not enough nurses that I could find, not through lack of trying.

There are not enough nurses in Ithaca who are least looking for work.

To support me, having 24 seven nursing care, we've got to get down to that.

We've got it right now.

So that I used to care about 4 or 3, two half days a week.

My father drives to and from Rochester to Ithaca every week to make up the difference there.

But some weeks where he lives with me all week, there has been only one week where I haven't seen.

I love my father.

I want to see him once a week.

It is good to see him once a week, but I don't like having him make these drives every week.

And I don't say this with any regret because he doesn't regret it.

I don't believe he's going to be good to me at least I'm not going to waste the opportunity he's given me by regretting it, by regretting him giving it to me.

You know, I wanted to make the most important.

But the back to you question if, if when my father is no longer able to be involved.

It literally makes a difference between having a job and a career and a life, or living in a hospital.

It could happen to me someday.

Like, what are the options?

Yeah.

If and when.

Yeah, yeah.

And the moment that happens that I lose my autonomy.

My mother is going to.

Let's pray.

She kept the family together.

And my siblings as well.

They.

I could put up with my blabbermouth for 26 years.

We talked about that transition from high school to college.

What about preparing for that transition from completing your PhD to what your career may look like.

To double what the screen is?

Where do I get a job which pursuing an academic career, many people and crisscrossing the country.

I've applied to jobs in Tennessee, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, California, New York.

Massachusetts, casting a wide net here.

Okay, so you're not limiting yourself based on, like, where your family is or anything like that.

It sounds like at the moment.

That'll come next.

Okay.

I would say mostly my applying to those jobs is me going la la la la la to any issues that arise.

To any possible issues that arise.

Okay.

Ignoring it, all of them.

I don't know what accommodations will look like.

The biggest issue will be the two biggest issues are issues that a workplace can't really help me with.

I get it accessible.

Apartment and nursing.

So these considerations are you know that sort of that that wider.

Yeah.

Space of again like the systemic or structural.

Yes to this which I as I understand it, we talked before about the definition of disability for you not necessarily sitting with the individual but within the environment.

Is that fair to say?

Yeah.

There are two prevailing concepts of disability.

You have the medical bodily disability, which is that disability is a individual defect or problem that ought to be cured or aided by medical means that it's the individual's responsibility to do so with the assistance of the medical system.

Then there's the social model of disability, which, to give a concrete example, my legs don't function like yours do.

Obviously.

The medical model against Volusia County is disabled.

He can't walk the social model of kids wheelchairs.

Cody is disabled only insofar as buildings don't have elevators and ramps.

You just have to retain that.

The disability might not be impairment, but if the disregard between the individual and the say being, say near sighted is much less of a disability.

If glasses are universally accepted, provided whatever I say, much less it becomes an eye disability.

I think I'm not your sidekick.

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I am.

And I can say that like, you know, wearing the glasses or wearing contacts like it's a non-issue.

Yeah.

With the nearsightedness.

Yeah.

And it would.

The social model would I think all that.

Okay.

If glasses were not.

Socially acceptable or if you weren't allowed to read anything up close because that was considered some weakness or social failing that would disable you more than the mere fact that your eyes function differently than mine.

When we have the technology to.

Yeah, correct.

That technology is an important part of it.

I think, corrections.

The medical model tries hard to correct things in the sense of make them disappear or make no one have to worry about it.

Correcting vision I yeah, I see it.

I hear.

There's no real way to correct my legs.

There are ways to make it so that I can integrate with society seamlessly regardless, the social model would, I think, prompt us more to focus on those things accurately.

The actual monoliths, the people.

The medical model was sort of implicit in most of the early 20th century.

It became explicit when people were back into social model, figuring out what the medical system was doing.

And this was during the heyday of institutionalization.

There were still people.

There are still people alive who survived the Nazi eugenics movements and such.

So that's the context where that was just griped and really pointed at as a major force societally.

The social model was developed in response to it.

They're not model where people have problems with both of them.

For example, neither the social model doesn't.

For example, account for things like pain, pain, pain.

It it can be argued that it really agrees with this.

I don't even know if I argue.

It can be argued that pain can be disabling.

It could be a major.

It is relevant to the disabled experience, but it isn't the result of society, not accommodating something or constructing a barrier for someone.

It just it's there.

It's something more immediate.

And there are other aspects as well of disability, of the social model that it is did a lot of good work and but I just don't I don't need you to spread it.

It's just there are other aspects of disability that people are now starting to think about to extend the social model or perhaps tweak it or go beyond it or it's also the academic ones.

And academics love tweaking models.

Oh of course.

Yeah.

So endlessly.

So part of what I'm arguing is literally academic.

As far as what it means for me in my daily life, for somebody in their daily life, it can be very powerful.

The social model was a revelation when it first came out, and I'm sure that there are more revelations to come whether what I want to actually get is the next revelation.

I go quite.

Sure.

How has it sort of shaped the way that you approach yourself?

Advocacy.

Good question.

Every building is a product of a society, and that sounds very boring and philosophical.

But I mean, we have fragile architecture, we have Soviet architecture, we have got brutalism.

Yeah, it's not just random chance that buildings in Paris look different than buildings in Moscow or buildings that you use.

There is a social aspect to.

It and a cultural.

Yeah, exactly where I think about self-advocacy, setting aside what we previously discussed about nursing and these broad just kind of issues, I don't have idea of how to fix them.

Most of my self advocacy is focused on the more immediate, tangible ramps, buttons, doors, elevators, etc.

and we can make it does become really a matter of architecture.

And I suppose one could say culture.

What sort of buildings do we build?

Who do we consider when we build exactly?

Or even like the sidewalks, the streets?

Is this meant for pedestrians?

Is this meant for.

While I'm involved in these sorts of conversations?

But most of what I've been fortunate enough to be able to do is remind people they.

Peggy, you consider wheelchair users, and I've been fortunate to be in the spaces and to be listened to in those spaces where that's a relevant question.

It is relevant where that question has impact, results in change.

Okay, someone.

On a good day.

It sounds like when.

The planets are lying and and everyone's had their coffee.

Yes.

When you view advocacy on a large scale, you also have to think about long term goals.

Short term goals are typically obvious because they will have immediate or close to immediate effects.

For individuals either.

Why did you do something new, or stopping a problem that's been harming or hindering their lives in some way?

Ramps, nursing care, institutionalization, all of these things problem solve it.

Hopefully people's lives are better.

No one can predict the future, but that's the goal and that's the hope.

The longer term goal of society is of advocacy is what sort of society do we want to create?

Do we want for ourselves, for our kids?

But I think, you know, if you want to think about advocacy, if you want to take a longer view about it, you do have to start asking yourself those bigger questions, because otherwise you just go on a treadmill.

There will always be one more building to fix.

There will always be one more class that's got one more congregation to maintain.

Where did you go week?

What is the end goal?

Specific locations.

I do a job advocacy for myself from my life.

Like me, I just want to hang out with friends, do math, and worship good, good music.

That that's my goal because it's that selfish.

Probably.

But it sounds great.

But you can't leave it out for fun.

It is.

But yeah, that's my goal.

And honestly, I want to make the world a better place.

I want to help individuals with disabilities around me and after me.

That's why I continue advocating even when I'm no longer impacting.

But I don't know what the long term goal is.

I don't even try to fight for something like that, because whatever I propose may not be the right thing.

So that's why I tend to focus on the medium to short term goals.

And I think that's for me, that's the most fulfilling and I think the most useful part of my game.

But for people who want to take up to that next level, who actually want to make it better, and I salute them, I think that's a question they should ask themselves.

Okay, I don't have a large board, but that's what they should have in mind because if you don't have that, you're just going to be fighting, fighting, fighting.

Finally, if you don't have a clear image of what you're fighting for, then then you end up just fighting to fight another day, which, tragically, is what many people are forced to do anyway.

But it'd be nice to have a better goal.

And that's all within yourself.

Maybe to thank you so much, colon.

Thank you for having me.

That was Conor Gillis.

For more information on Self-Advocacy, visit our website at move to include.org.

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Leave us a review and share us on social media.

We're at move to include.

This podcast is produced by WXXI Public Media.

I'm Evan Dawson.

This is connections.

When we come back from our only break of the hour, we sit down with the host of the Move to Include podcast, Noelle Evans and my colleague Sara Murphy.

Emma monti project manager for move to include.

Join us.

We're going to talk about what they have coming up, and we'll talk about the remarkable story of Canaan girls that you just heard.

I'm Megan Mack.

Thursday on the next connections, a conversation about immigration and nonviolence.

We talk about the state of immigration in this community.

The role of law enforcement and how they interact with Ice, and more.

Then in our second hour, high impact tutoring and what local education advocates would like to see.

And the New York State budget when it comes to support for tutoring and tutors.

That's Thursday.

Talk to you then.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Carey.

Yola center supporting residents to become active members of the community, from developing life skills to gaining independence.

Mary Carey, Yola center Transforming lives of people with disabilities.

More online at Mary Carey, yola.org.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Ignore the TS for tomorrow.

You just heard that was from last week.

That was my fault there.

I put everything in the wrong spot here.

You'd think that after 12 years, I would have the technology down.

Tomorrow, in part, we're talking about a special kind of tutoring that, a group of parents is advocating that New York State help fund because they see a big inequity in how kids, not only are learning, but the help that they are getting.

If you are from a wealthy family, you probably can afford tutoring.

Your kids probably have a chance to have tutoring.

If you're not, then your kids might not get access, and that could change if the state legislature makes certain decisions.

We're going to talk about what that looks like and how that would work.

Tomorrow on the program, let me welcome now to the studio, Noelle Evans.

Noelle is host of The Move to include podcast and education reporter producer for WXXI news.

Hi.

Welcome to the studio.

I thank you and.

Welcome to Sara Abby Monti, project manager for move to include as well.

Nice to see you in studio again.

Nice to be here, Evan.

So the story of Canaan Gillis, who, by the way, helps us out on the community advisory board.

Sure.

Yeah.

I do the acronyms.

A really remarkable story.

I was talking to Noelle during our brief break, and, you know, I think everybody, whether you use a wheelchair or not, you can relate to the idea of just trying to be in a public space and realizing this is not wide enough for me.

I literally can't I can't go down it.

I can't be in here and I can't get access.

It's so straightforward and so jarring, and you can understand how an eight year old that changes their life.

What a powerful story that was.

Yeah, I mean, that also tells you, you know, as he was saying, you know, by design, I don't belong here unless, you know, somebody takes notice and makes an adjustment.

Even with when he was talking about being in high school and pointing out that, you know, if the front door entrance has, handicap accessible button, then he doesn't have to wait for somebody else to come and let him in.

And when I, I mean, even going around Rochester and wherever I am, I especially after having conversations with folks like Canaan, like realizing how glaringly obvious it is.

Even with a gym not being able to enter unless I've seen folks who are, like, recovering from a stroke not be able to get through the door unless somebody goes out of their way for them.

And so when Canaan speaks to, you know, that social model of.

Yeah, I talked about sidewalks.

You know, I mean, there's so many different spaces.

And let me ask both of you about this, because, I mean, obviously, this is the work that, that you do on a regular basis, trying to understand the world we live in and who it's designed for and who it's not designed for.

Noelle design is sort of been like this really big theme so far of this podcast series here.

What what would you say is a it was a takeaway that you have as you learn more about accessibility when it comes to design in our society.

I mean, that's like the major thread that stitching together so much of these stories from folks, whether it's talking about housing, whether it's talking about employment, that it's really and I want to throw this to Sara, actually, because, it's such a huge part of people's experience and life could be so much different and so much easier for folks to just have some barriers removed for the simple fact of ramps or, you know, a standard thing like curb cuts or a standard thing.

So, yeah, go for it.

So yeah, absolutely.

And we talk a lot about the built environment and how the Americans with Disabilities Act and other legislation is really the floor when it comes to accessibility and inclusion.

There's concepts of universal and inclusive design that are being brought more and more into the architecture and interior design space.

We want to see that grow.

But right now, there's not a lot of direction or requirements from different, you know, zoning committees or, just internal planning committees as well.

So we really want to talk about not just what's the letter of the law, what's compliant, but what is practically accessible.

And that goes beyond the physical mobility and into things like cognitive accessibility, and sensory inclusive accessibility.

So thinking about just anyone who might be walking or rolling into a space and what might they need or what might be a barrier to them accessing that space.

Yeah.

And there's there's something that stood out to me listening to Canan describe.

So, for example, take the the either having a button or not having a button to get through a door.

Right.

And I could, I could imagine a listener thinking, well, okay, but so you have to wait at the door.

So someone opens the door for you.

But you listen to people like Canan, who is so powerful in telling his own story, and you realize that a big part of it is dignity.

It's self-direction, self-advocacy.

And yes, I guess someone could open the door for him.

But do we want to create the autonomy, the self-direction, the, frankly, the dignity for folks?

I just I was really moved by by him, by talking by.

You're talking to Cohn in here.

It was very powerful stuff.

And dignity kept coming to mind for me.

Oh, absolutely.

Canaan's fabulous.

And I hope people continue to listen to more of the episodes that are coming up, because that definitely comes up, in a future episode talking about housing.

Talking about, when somebody when you're dealing with intersectionality of, identities and someone's pretty much using your disability as a way to, exercise a form of neglect because of your race, by ignoring you.

But then, acknowledging other folks, and, you know, so that's.

Discriminating against you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

So that's for sure.

It's a big I mean going back to like that thread that weaves through all of this big time and you know, think about for you like how I don't like necessarily waiting Or having my decisions have to be made for me by somebody else.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the again that's the dignity piece.

How do you see the subject of dignity when it comes to the disability community and what we use laws, norms, culture to say is mandated.

That is either designed in or allows for people to sort of self direct.

Sarah.

Yeah, it's it's so important that people have that autonomy and that sense of dignity, that sense of belonging whenever they enter a space.

And Noelle had mentioned, our housing episode that's upcoming, but also health care, I think, you know, Canan got to this a little bit.

There's an there's an intimacy level associated with when you have care and support as a person with a disability or someone who's aging or any of those types of relationships.

And so making sure that this isn't just a transactional relationship, that there is that care for the individual, that respect for dignity and individuality.

So I want to go back to the opening of the series.

I think the first episode was with Stephanie Woodward.

Is that right?

Was that episode one one episode four?

Now there's going to be six total.

And when Stephanie makes money, she's always so good at she makes this point like a blunt hammer that's like, oh, I'm going to remember this.

And she's talking about the term, you know, equal marriage and the idea of, you know, what what that is and what that is to in most people's minds, when we talk about marriage equality and it's like, well, okay, you have a concept of what marriage equality is.

Are you thinking about the disability community?

You know, you probably think about the LGBTQ community for good reason.

But if you're if you're not understanding how marriage hasn't always been equal for the disability community, you're sort of missing what that phrase means and how it applies here.

And I wonder if we do the same with with health care.

We think about health care for all, you know, Medicare for all these terms that we have that we think about often.

But are we thinking about all this series is kind of hit me over and over again, like, oh, we're not really thinking about everybody.

We're thinking in a more narrow sense than we realize and not maliciously.

I mean, like, I'm as guilty as anybody, probably of, of not really having the full picture.

So I don't think it's malicious with most people.

Sarah, do you know.

Absolutely.

I think most people are well-intentioned.

And I would say there's almost a hesitation because they want to do the right thing.

They want to say the right thing, but they may not know what that is.

So there's there's a training and a knowledge gap there too.

Right.

But when we talk about health care for all and we talk about the financial accessibility, it's also plugged into transportation.

Can I get to my doctor's office once I get to my doctor's office?

Is the reception desk configured in a way that I, as a wheelchair user, can come up and interact with the receptionist.

Once I get into the exam room, is there the necessary equipment in there?

To help me get on to the exam table or into the eye exam chair?

Whatever needs to happen.

Is that there?

So there's so many different threads of accessibility that we have in and out of all six episodes of the podcast.

When you travel for work, as you do sometimes, and you meet colleagues working on these kind of subjects and other places which we've talked about on this program.

Do you find that most of the work that you and your colleagues are doing in this space is welcomed?

I mean, is it embraced to other people, whether they're working in media, whether they're working in the business space or the government space, who are open to the idea that they still have a lot to learn, that they're not putting up walls?

Or is there sort of a, a pulling back when these issues are brought up?

I would say I haven't experienced a pulling back, but I do think there's a difference between people who want to genuinely be allies to a community they're not a member of, and those that are just looking to perform a check box on accessibility.

And, you know, we we see that a lot.

So coming to the table with a sense of humility of the I don't know what I don't know.

And engaging with community partners, individuals with disabilities is so, so important.

And that's what we kind of hammer home for us here at Z, but also our partner stations throughout the country.

Yeah.

And I think to go back to the point about Stephanie, people like Stephanie Woodward, who are advocates, who are community members, who are really powerful leaders, she shows a combination of sort of, a, a demand for change that isn't going to keep waiting while also showing, I think, just enough grace to say to you, all right, if you didn't get it before.

Like, yeah.

Now, you know, you know, it's like I've had that feeling with with Stephanie when early in my tenure of hosting the show, I learned what the phrase nothing about us without us means.

Yes.

And I've never forgotten that.

And one of our earlier episodes, before this one, was about disaster preparedness with Anita Cameron and also, I mean, I went into that conversation thinking we were going to talk about how to basically fill in the gap for yourself and your community.

When generally speaking, folks with disabilities end up being kind of left behind.

And she started it with how to become a first responder.

And so that was, for me, like a reframe of, you know, what is possible.

And for me, checking myself as to, you know, assuming that perhaps some people can't be in that space, but absolutely, you can be.

That like one of those as a journalist, was that like an oh dang moment where it's like, oh, I was not seeing this exactly the right way.

Here I have I have.

Those moments for me are actually so exhilarating because I'm just like, oh my gosh.

Like, let's go deeper.

Like, what else don't I know?

And that's a fantastic conversation, with Anita Cameron.

And I highly recommend I mean, of course, I'm going to recommend listening to this.

Well, I've already done that.

I you know, you don't have to keep doing.

I'll keep doing it for you.

Thank you.

Everybody should let people know.

And I mean, the other thing about, let the people know, when it comes to, like, making spaces accessible, when it comes to, like, zooming out a bit more, you know, I recently reported on, you know, autism up was offering, some sensory friendly DMV appointments.

And just by delving into that a little bit, I'm like, man, wouldn't it be so great if the DMV was actually just a bit more comfortable to be in, for everybody?

And then it even makes me think of, like, the design of a can opener, like when it something is designed to help, you know, folks who may have arthritis, like how it benefits kind of everybody.

When you consider folks that are out in the margins and you designed for them in mind, just how much, ease it can put on, on everybody.

So it is a, I mean, arguably a boon.

The can opener thing is a really interesting one to me, because that dovetails with the conversation that my colleague Veronica Volk hosted on this program, in which and not to talk too much about Stephanie, but Veronica and Stephanie when we're done.

At the time when people magazine was was featuring Stephanie's family.

She has six children, five living children, as she and her husband both use wheelchairs.

And, you know, they had triplets along with two boys.

And it's like, whoa.

Like, first of all, that is a lot for.

Any human, anyone.

It doesn't matter who you are, what's going on in your life.

Like, that's a ton.

And then what was to me was really cool, was seeing the reaction to some of what she had done with socials to show people be like, well, you know, you got triplets, you're both using wheelchairs.

Like, how do you deal with cribs?

It's like, oh, we've got like French doors on the cribs and like, we've got like and the amount of people who are like, listen, I don't use a wheelchair, but that is way better.

I want that like I want how do I do that?

Similar to the can opener story, it's like, well, I don't have arthritis, but this is a better product for me now.

And I think sometimes, Sarah, there's an idea that what the disability community wants, maybe it can be accommodated.

It's going to be an inconvenience for everybody.

It's going to be a cost for everybody, but maybe it should happen.

And they've had to deal in the disability community for decades with people either rolling their eyes or putting up walls or not change in laws under the assumption that, well, this is gonna make everything harder, but I guess we could do it as opposed to like a good amount of this stuff could actually be good for like, everybody.

Oh, absolutely.

I think of, to go back to, some of the non mobility related accommodations and, fulfilling those access needs, just having an agenda ahead of time or a slide deck ahead of time for your meeting, whether it's in-person or virtual, that helps everyone, but it especially help someone who may have a processing disorder or, you know, may not be able to deal with the fluorescent lights that we have here in the studio.

Things like that.

So some of these things are literally under $100, if any cost at all.

It may take you a few more minutes when you're prepping for an event or a meeting, but they can be done very easily.

It just you need to have that conversation, between whomever is facilitating and the person with a disability to make sure you actually are meeting the access need and not meeting what you think the access need is.

Yeah.

We recently had a conversation, about what has changed and what is happening for people who are hearing impaired, the deaf community.

And so we had a guest in the studio to cochlear implant, kind of amazing to me that 12 years into hosting Meghan Mac, was that the first guest we've ever had with a cochlear implant in the studio?

I think it was because, you know, initially you're figuring out, okay, well, we've got a guest in studio.

They cannot use headphones, because of the way the cochlear implant interacts with their brain.

And they're mad.

Everything going on headphones is not the way.

So.

Okay, no problem.

He didn't wear the headphones, but now we've got remote guests, so he needs the headphones.

Well, we hadn't thought of that.

And on the fly, this amazing team whose names you almost never hear from me.

And you should hear more often, including the people and in tech and it.

I mean, everyone was it was all hands on deck figuring out like, okay, we didn't have this figured out.

We thought we did.

And we came up with a solution and it worked out really well.

The next time, it's totally going to be totally different, because now we've done it and we've experienced that.

And I don't look at it as like anything other than I'm so glad that we have figured this out and that we've worked through it.

I wish I would have thought more about that beforehand, not knowing how a cochlear implant to work.

And that was on me.

Like I own that mistake.

But I learned a lot from that mistake.

As part of the leader of a team who does amazing work every day to try to be more accessible.

So we could have, I think Sarah taking the, the lesson from that is like, well, that was hard or we weren't prepared.

Or let's never do that again.

Never knew.

That.

That's the problem is when you go, well, the lesson is like, don't do that.

Yeah.

As opposed to like, no, we figure the accommodation out.

I wish I had not made the mistake of not knowing what to do in full beforehand, but that was my mistake.

The team figured it out and now we can do it again.

Like we could do it every day of the week if we want to.

Absolutely.

And I don't know if you remember Evan, but the first two weeks we were live streaming connections to YouTube, we had on different panels, we had deaf guests who needed ASL interpretation, and we had to figure out with the cameras here in the studio, where best everyone should be positioned, so that we can make sure that not only the guest in studio can see the interpreter, but that our YouTube audience could also see the interpreter.

And we did that on the fly as well.

I mean, week one out of the gate.

You guys are amazing.

So, you're just making it happen.

And I think a lot of that is up to the executive attitude and internal culture of we, we make this a place where you belong and you are welcome.

We want you here.

We're going to do what we need to make that happen.

And how can we possibly serve the public if we're not serving everyone?

Exactly.

That's it.

I mean, one of the the guests on the program, when we were talking about living with a cochlear implant, he said that when he is in company meetings, they have an ethos.

He's at PBS.

He was just here.

He has the ethos that PBS is like, if this doesn't work for everybody, it's not working for anybody, and we're not going forward until everyone can hear or access.

So if it doesn't work for you, you got to let us know.

And we're not moving forward without that.

Yeah.

Just start your meeting virtual or in-person with an access check, you know, can everyone hear?

Can everyone see?

Does everyone have what they need to be successful for the next 45 minutes to an hour?

Real straightforward, right?

And most of the time, probably the answer is yes.

But when it is not, it's probably a surprise and it's eye opening.

And then you can deal with it as opposed to someone who has the probably and again, this is I mean, Sarah, as someone who's been in the disability community, my guess is there's a mix of reactions, but not everybody is going to put their hand up and say, like, wait.

Some people will tell you that they feel isolated.

They feel left out, excluded and.

Proven shame for speaking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You don't want to be, like, seen as annoying.

Oh, I do have it.

Yeah.

So let's stop everything so I can.

Yeah.

And the amount of stigma attached to, having, you know, maybe something that's considered, like an exceptional need.

Like, I know things are shifting a bit in some realms, but, that can be really difficult to, like.

Call yourself out, you know?

Which is why when when Sarah models how to do that as the leader should do that, then the person doesn't have to do that.

And then all of a sudden it's not.

The weight is not on the person with the disability to have to all of a sudden stop.

Everything can go like, excuse me.

So Or even having it one on one.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

We always put my contact information out there.

So if you're attending one of our events, if you're coming in for a meeting, if you're a guest on connections, like chat through options with me, we can get you what you need.

And I also appreciate the fact that, as I mentioned, you know, I have made mistakes.

The team of connections is amazing.

They think about everything and I don't always think of what I need to think of in advance.

And Sarah is really, really good about, again, showing grace, but saying like, here's how we can do this.

It's a can do and a must do attitude combined with like, hey, as long as your your mindset is in the right place, we're going to solve this.

So I just I appreciate that very absolutely.

This is a journey without a set destination.

There's no such thing as perfect accessibility.

And a lot of times you may encounter access friction between needs from different audiences, particularly with large groups.

So you do the best that you can.

And we just want to celebrate and support you where you are on that journey, always improving and the technology changes, right.

So language is fluid, technology changes.

So we want to make sure that we're keeping up with best practices and standard operating procedures.

Throughout the community and in the industry.

But I would say this comes from, you know, my own personal history of masking or pushing through, not putting that hand up.

And so I want to make sure no one else ever feels like they're in that position, that they can't get what they need because they don't want to put that hand up or they don't feel comfortable doing it.

Now, we're so glad to have you.

And let me just finish up here by saying that you heard episode four today.

There's two episodes that are still coming.

To, you.

Know, Noelle teased ahead to them a little bit here.

Episode number five is on the subject of health care.

Yes.

And now we're talking about urgent care insurance.

Gynecology.

Like we get into it.

And then episode six is on housing, but it's also about, you know, differences when you've acquired a disability because of violence and how, that can also shape how you're treated, versus, you know, if you're paralyzed in a different way.

Okay.

You're going to hate me asking, but do we know when the episodes are dropping?

Yep.

Next month, I think it's I agree.

Yeah.

The month of good.

Okay.

One in May and one in June.

Two Rapids I want.

To say is May 11th is the next one in June.

I it's usually that.

The second second Monday of each month.

Yeah.

You go and then they'll live on for.

That on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Perpetuity.

I was gonna ask to where people perpetuity.

Where do you want people to find.

And I guess the answer is going to be different for the audience, because, again, you can access it in different ways.

But let's close with that.

So you want to mention again, where where can people access.

So I would have you go to move to include.org okay.

That's our local page for everything we're doing.

It's the podcast.

It's the inclusion desk.

It's all of the things we're doing here locally with move to include.

So move to include.org.

All right.

You're caught up to speed there Sarah Murphy Abby Monty project manager for move to include.

Nice to see you in the studio digs here as always thanks for.

Being in the afternoon Evan.

Which is always a pleasure.

Yeah.

Usually sharing our like on pledge early in the morning.

So this is late in the day for us.

And Noelle Evans hosted the move to include podcast education reporter producer for I news.

I know you're going to keep up the outstanding work with this.

Congratulations on the series so far.

Thank you, thank you.

Thanks for being here.

And from all of us at connections.

It is a great team.

And, from all of us.

Thank you for being with us on these various platforms.

We're back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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