From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made two Saturdays ago, the 4th of July, when the United States marked 250 years since the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

In the scope of history, it is remarkable that a nation founded on the ideals laid out by the founders has lasted a quarter millennium.

So we want to know, is the country living up to those ideals?

What does patriotism mean to you in 2026?

Do you consider yourself a patriot or patriotic?

According to a recent Gallup poll.

Patriotism has hit a 25 year low this year, with one third of respondents saying they have extreme pride in their national identity.

Just a third.

So how do you feel about being an American?

My guess is our have a lot to say about these subjects and more.

We'll go around the table.

A candidate for Brighton Town Supervisor, and considering there's not anyone on the ballot to oppose him, Nate Salzman is likely the next Brighton town supervisor.

Nice to have you here.

Thanks for having me.

And a former town supervisor, Mark Assini, is now retired.

Former gates town supervisor, former Monroe County legislator, among other public and private roles here.

Nice to have you back on the program, Mark.

Good to see you.

Across the table, Eve Elzenga is a Rochester resident, a humanist, a lifelong activist.

Through a recent party, he's got an American flag pin on her hat here.

Nice to see you back here.

Eve.

Thank you.

Evan and Adrian Hale, New York state regent, a civic leader.

Nice to see you back.

It's been a little while.

Yeah, has been a little bit.

But I'm glad to be here for today's conversation.

Well, let's go around the table here.

Are you proud to be an American?

Very much so.

You left out that I was a U.S.

marine and a combat veteran.

Okay.

All right.

So I'm going to I'm going to scribble that I knew that.

Throw that in there.

U.S.

marine in a combat veterans.

Right.

Proud to be an American?

Very much so.

Okay.

Tell me more about that.

So I first off, want to just set the table of how I look at my version of patriotism, which is I hold a deep belief that America is a space and place in the world where the work of improving the human condition can occur for the purposes of making possible a land where we can realize some of humanity's greatest aspirations social mobility, freedom, equality, contributions.

And I believe the patriotism we've seen over the course of our country's history has been folks who also believe that and have dedicated their lives in so their life's work to achieving and attaining it.

I'm going to read some feedback from listeners throughout this hour.

One email I already have is from a local Democrat who says he is not proud of the country.

What do you say to people who say they are not proud of the country?

So I know a lot of my peers and even folks who join me in my party, I'm a disclose that I am a Democrat.

Typically like to look at our country's past and judge it by the past, but I want to make something very clear.

You don't get to 2026 without getting through 1786.

You don't get the 2026 without getting through 1865.

Right?

So you have to be very clear about what the mandate emission of Americanism is today.

And we all have to accept the responsibility of taking on those tasks and that mission.

Right.

Change does not come by default.

It very much has to be something we're actively engaged in.

And I would tell, the person who sent you that email to be mindful of that, right, that we can only judge a time by its time.

There are many problems today, and we have to also be responsible for the issues that plague us today.

Email Zynga.

Are you proud to be an American?

I am proud to be an American and I have been a lifelong activist.

I'm a lesbian.

I'm a member of the Democratic Committee.

I was the person who was standing behind Tim Maynes, getting him elected when he was the first openly gay elected At-Large official in the United States of America.

And I worked for and with Tim.

I'm also a humanist, so I believe in rational thinking.

I believe in logic.

I believe in secular ethics.

So, part of my pride of my being proud to be an American is that we have separation of church and state in this country, and that anyone has an opportunity to be a really good, fulfilled person.

You don't need to have a religion.

Tell me about the pin on your hat.

I'm wearing an American flag pin on my hat.

I have a huge collection because I did work for Tim Maynes and worked in politics for a number of years.

I'm very, aware of symbolism and, we recently had a very large party on the 5th of July.

70 people were invited, and, it was a real celebration to bring community together because people are feeling so terrible about about the country.

And I refuse to allow my love and my defense of this country to be attacked because of who's in the white House right now.

Mark, are you proud to be an American?

I sure am.

And I see, as Adrian was talking about, I see America as, a place of inclusion.

For its people, its democratic values.

And I think improving the nation is part of being a patriot, doing things to make America better.

And we have a lot of improvement that we can be working on.

And I believe patriotism includes affection, love for the country.

I'm a first generation American.

I'm the son and grandson of immigrants and I can assure you that our family loves this country.

We know it's not perfect, but it has had so many blessings for our family and and many immigrants.

And, there certainly is a deep love and affection for America.

What does patriotism mean to you in particular in terms of how people might live their lives as patriots?

Well, you know, I'm going to give you a quote from a historian, Gary Willis, and I apologize to those at home.

I take notes, and it just helps me organize my thoughts to explain that a little earlier to our panel.

No problem.

Thomas Jefferson viewed patriotism not as a blind devotion to the government, but as a commitment to democratic ideals, individual liberty, and the Republic.

He believed patriotism required eternal vigilance and a willingness to challenge authority, to protect freedom.

You may recall that I was a bit of a gadfly as a Republican, because I would challenge things, certainly as a legislator and even as a supervisor, that I thought were wrong, even when my party I felt was out of line, I would challenge them.

And I think that's your obligation and duty, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, whatever you're doing in public office.

And we have one individual, I'll just point out, who locally does that?

And for that vigil ism, they face big criticism.

And that's, Rachel Barnhardt and I admire her.

We've worked together on a few things.

She has integrity.

She's strong, she's tough.

She's not always right.

But she'll challenge our leaders if something doesn't seem right.

And good for you, Rachel.

And I think she's a patriot for doing that.

Nate Salzman, are you proud to be an American?

Yes, I am, I'm in local government.

Of course I am.

Well, well.

Look, I could probably find someone in local government in some city in America who would say that they're not.

But tell me why you are proud to be an American.

You know, I was just sitting with a group of constituents, and some of those constituents have served on the planning Board or the zoning Board or the Architectural Review Board for 1021, gentlemen, for 40 years.

And so these are people that volunteer in our community.

They get paid nothing.

They show up to a meeting once a month, and they talk about how to to shape our community, to put the new business in, to help the local restaurant owner to help you out in addition to your house.

And then they go home and they go about their day to day, and they make no money for it.

But they are dedicating time every day to making our community better.

And to me, that's that's patriotism.

It's, you know, I, I teach my sons this and I love to go camping.

And we're just in Vermont last week.

And the lesson is you leave the campsite better than you found.

And I think the most patriotic thing you could do, to Adrian's point, talking about the history of our country is the intention to leave this country, leave this town, this community, this county.

Better than you found it.

I really appreciate that idea.

I think that you can apply that to just about everything that you do, right?

Well, you were just.

If you're in government, if you're in, if you're in scouting.

That's right.

If you're camping.

Well, you were just talking about being a local baseball coach.

Yeah.

And you know, you I'm sure you teach your kids, you know, if there are candy wrappers on the field after the game, you pick up the candy wrappers after the oh.

You didn't want to be around when the condition of the dugout after the first game of the summer was fair, that was that was a mistake one time and it has not been duplicated.

That's right.

No, no.

You take pride in your space for sure.

So so let me read that email that I hinted at.

We'll go back around the table.

This is David from Ovid, who sent me this email this morning.

He said this country has never stood for its founding ideals.

And I take no pride in being American.

In fact, I would like to be deported to the place where my great grandfather came from, a small English town in Kent in the UK.

I would move there tomorrow if I could.

We are founded in slavery, steeped in racism, always starting wars somewhere in the world and currently on the road to fascism.

There's nothing to be proud of as a U.S.

citizen.

That is from David and Ovid.

What do you think?

What a great country that David can say that about the government or say about the country.

You know, I'll tell you again, when you're in local government, people will just come right up to me and they'll tell me what a what a great job I'm doing.

Or.

What a not great job.

And, you know, somebody said to me, you know, well, does that bother you?

And I said, no, because there are times when I want to go up to an a local elected official or petition my government and be a dissident.

I'll do another quote here.

Like, like Mark over here.

Mark Twain, I think it was who said you should you should love your country or be proud of your country all the time and be proud of your government when they deserve it.

And what I would say to the to the listener is, well, maybe they have.

We haven't deserved it yet, but we can still feel pride in our country.

You still feel pride watching the world Cup and watching Americans, Americans, some who were born, here and then and then immediately left, or some who grew up here and, and have gone through the USA soccer system and all together on the field representing our country.

You can still feel proud of that team even if you oppose this current government, like many of us do at this table.

Let's get everybody to weigh in on this here.

And, so Adrian Hale, when when David says, quote, we are founded in slavery, steeped in racism, always starting war somewhere in the world and currently on the road to fascism.

So there is nothing to be proud of as a U.S.

citizen.

Yeah.

So first off, I want to back up a little bit because I do want to be sensitive to the points that Dave is making.

Right?

Our country has had to overcome numerous amount of hurdles in order to get us to the place that we're at today.

And it's because of people like you in the work that you did that helped get us there.

As I was talking eight years ago.

Eve, I'm extremely grateful for the work you did with Tim.

Made people like myself openly gay who serve in a statewide capacity.

I'm there because of folks like you all.

So I want to thank you for that.

But I also want to go back to, like, the founding of the country.

Right.

Because America is ultimately not just a place, but it really is an aspiration rooted in the aspirations of humanity.

Okay, then the nation can only be as good as we're able to be good and to become better.

So if you look at the world in 1786 when he said it was founded in slavery, which my ancestors were slaves, okay, I know the plantation that my family came from.

You have to take into account that across the globe, there was an inherent belief in many people that all human beings were not equal.

And the way they expressed that was through czars, emperors, empresses, kings, queens, warlords, chieftains, sultans, Mughal lords, the entire world groaned in chains under the belief that some people were inherently better and fit to rule, while others followed.

I think more succinctly put, one of the great philosophers said, the the strong do what they will.

The weak suffer what they must that was governing the world at a time.

So for centuries for said Linnaeus.

Yeah.

That's right.

So when you had these gentlemen sitting together, say we hold these truths to be self-evident, all men were created equal.

This is a hinge in human history to first espouse the idea of universal equality, then put it to a vote across states along the entire continent where they voted on it.

It was like they just decided this will be the law of the land.

They put it to each state and they said, are you for or against it?

If you're a get it, you're against.

If you're for it, your for absolute and in total.

And from there, Herculean legislative feats have occurred to put us here.

Constitutional amendments have occurred to put us here.

And it didn't just come by default.

Right.

But people had to constantly point back to those words and hold the condition of humanity at that time accountable to it.

And so I would say to Dave, right, it's one thing to say, I want to leave America and go back to England.

Right.

But I would also acts which are discontentment with America.

What have you done to make this country live up to its ideal?

Amen.

Right.

That is inherently each of our responsibilities.

We can't just enjoy the rights of America.

We also have the taking the responsibilities of America.

You know, and I just want to make sure he's aware of that.

It sounds to me like you agree with the email from Patrick, a different listener who says the people who say they are ashamed to be American are generally poorly educated about exactly how horrible most of human history has been.

We are a flawed country that often falls short of its goals, but we were created with a vision for true human flourishing, not just the noble class of the royals.

I'm sorry to say, but that was amazing then, and it is amazing now.

I probably sound like Ken Burns, but I loved his documentary of the Revolution.

And I agree with Ken Burns assessment.

America is great because it was such a daring idea and the world is much better off because of it.

But even more so, you've had people along the timeline of change in our country who believed so deeply, they stood up to the great challenges of our time.

Mark mentioned one of them locally, Rachel Barnhart, who gets a bad rap.

People feel have strong feelings and opinions about her.

But at the end of the day, you can't say she doesn't try to shine a light on what she thinks is right or wrong.

And she's not the only one right.

She's joined by a choir of people, both now and throughout time, who have done that work.

And what I would just say to Dave and many people within, you know, my party and who are more left leaning, is we cannot continue to look in the rearview mirror and lionize the people of the past who got us here without becoming the lions, who are necessary to carry on that work today.

When I think about the fact that and this is just just I want to throw this out here because we all live in Rochester, and one of the greatest challenges we have in our city is we lead the country in poverty.

Right?

Poverty, to me, is one of the worst forms of violence against humanity.

When you look at the production of poverty, how it is actively continuing to occur, the problem is being sustained and getting worse by the day.

But we celebrate some people celebrate the achievement of the world's first trillionaire.

Tell me we are not just a country, but where the human condition is that we've not yet resolved within ourselves.

The achievement is not creating a trillionaire, but it's finally solving the issue in active production of a social problem like poverty.

Okay, so let me get even Mark on this too.

Mark, I heard you a morning at one point.

This is what Adrian was saying.

But what would you say to the emailer, David?

Who says he'd rather be deported back to England than live in this country anymore?

He is correct that we are a flawed nation and we have been a flawed nation, but we are a great nation in this respect.

Adrian touched on it.

In the Declaration of Independence, you were quoting that all men are created equal.

That's what our founders believed.

And that's the principle of the founding of this country.

And they have certain unalienable rights and life.

Liberty and the pursuit of happiness is part of it.

And to secure these rights.

And this is the key, and this is where we can do better.

Governments are instituted among men, deriving their powers from the consent of the governed.

If we want to change things, we have to be the change.

That's right.

I ran for office.

You were running for office.

You have helped people run for office.

That is patriotic.

Forget your ideology.

Forget your your political beliefs.

That's patriotic.

Because you are doing what you think you need to do to make this a better country, to address those flaws.

That's what is required of us as citizens of America.

It is part of being patriotic, and it's a duty you have.

Not everybody has to run for office, but everybody should vote.

Everybody should follow elections and see what those candidates stand for.

Everyone should participate in the electoral process in one way or another to the best of your ability.

That's part of being an American.

That's part of being patriotic.

If you want change, be part of that change.

Eve, what would you say?

Again, this is probably David is probably in your political party.

What would you say to.

I want to talk about the current patriots right now standing outside in front of the federal building are people who participate in something called the constitutional call out.

This is their 64th continuous week of being out there reading the Constitution right now.

Those people are real patriots and they're heroes.

And I want to talk also about about my wife, Annette Dragon, who is a professional photographer.

Annette has been out since the second Trump campaign.

She has been photographing protests and she has just finished her 137th protest in this region.

So those photographs are documentation of what where America is and what's going on.

They're shared with the organizers.

They go nationally.

They go internationally.

These are there are true patriots out on the streets every day right now.

And I'm proud that I get to support them.

Well, let me read a little bit more from what Pew says about how Americans view the idea of patriotism.

And then as we go throughout the hour, listeners will take more of your feedback if you want to call the program.

I want to know if you consider yourself a patriot or patriotic or what that means to you.

250 years after the Declaration of Independence.

It's 844295.

Talk to toll free 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you call from Rochester 2639994, email the program.

As always, connections at skywalk.

And if you're watching on YouTube, you can join the chat there.

Here's from Pew Research earlier this year.

Republicans and Democrats differ in the specific words they use when sharing what they are proud of.

Republicans are much more likely than Democrats to mention President Donald Trump and to mention God, as well as to use the words best and greatest.

They're also more likely to use the term illegal and mention the military.

164 year old Republican woman used some of these words in her entered a pew.

She said Donald Trump and his cabinet with Donald Trump and his cabinet.

Our country is no longer a laughing stock worldwide and is now a military and economic superpower.

We are respected by the entire world and our economy is booming once again.

We are cracking down on crime and dealing with gangs and illegal aliens.

Democrats, in turn, frequently contrast the past and present when talking about what makes them proud of the United States.

Some of the distinctive words Democrats use include moment and past.

For example, a 38 year old Democrat told Pew, at the moment, not much is good.

In the past, our sense of freedom, liberty and equality stood out.

End quote.

And Republicans were more likely to consider themselves strongly patriotic than Democrats.

So let me ask the one Republican in the room here.

Any surprise there to you?

Why do you think Republicans are more likely to self-identify as strongly patriotic and right now than than Democrats?

I think right now, the thing that is driving Democrats is a five letter word.

You know what?

That.

Yes.

Trump, though.

And what I would say and what I would say, because Republicans may feel satisfied because they have a Republican president and they feel many of his positions and I disagree.

Have we we've spoken in previous programs.

You know, I disagree with, President Trump on some things.

I agree with him and others.

But, there's one thing I would say for those who are concerned about the president and his presidency and a warning to those who follow the president blindly, and many do.

On November 7th, 2028, something's going to happen.

Adrian, what's going to happen?

And then there will be a different president because there.

Is somebody else.

Who have somebody else in there.

Okay, so can we survive as a country for two years?

Yes.

Yes we can.

We've survived a lot worse than that.

That's right.

We've survived a lot worse than that.

And I would say to them, you know, elections aren't perfect, but they're pretty darn good.

And, voting and free and fair elections.

And I I've already told you, I don't buy this.

The elections were rigged the last time around.

I just that's ridiculous.

But, voting and free, fair elections, and we have them here in this country is patriotic.

So let's be patriots and elect a new president in two years.

So let me look for the Democrats in the room.

I want to listen to the recent comments.

This is on June 27th in Savannah, Georgia.

Senator Jon Ossoff was talking about his ideas about patriotism.

And you actually hear something in this clip that you are much less likely these days to hear in Democratic rallies.

The crowd breaks into a USA chant, let's listen.

Americans aren't a race.

We're a people.

United not by ethnicity, but by shared convictions.

And that is what makes us exceptional.

And a beacon to the world.

You watch USA.

USA.

USA.

USA.

USA.

USA.

Just think.

250 years on.

What the founders would see if they visited us today.

But wait.

Wow.

They would see that slavery had been abolished.

They would see that.

Americans without land and then women's and then the descendants of slaves had secured voting rights.

They would see what our science and discovery propelled.

Human knowledge to unimaginable.

Heights, and that those 13 colonies had grown into a superpower that defeated the Nazis and communism.

They'd see a pluralist.

Democracy, people of all.

Colors descended from every point on earth, stitched together out of many nations into one.

All right.

So, Nate Salzman, what do you hear there?

Yeah.

I love the message.

And I'll tell you, you know, and again, I'm the guy beating the drum for get involved in local government because I have the good fortune.

I think the reason why I'm so optimistic about our country is I go outside and I talk to people a lot, and I go to Buckland Park, and I and I watch the parents who are volunteering to coach their kids soccer games.

And I talk to the person who's spent 30 years on the architectural Review board helping business owners get started.

These are these are patriots.

These are people that are participating and trying to make the, you know, their community a better place.

And, you know, John sounds a lot like Adrian.

They're, talking about the history of our country and the progress that we've made.

And I think that one of the things that's happened in our country recently is we've all gotten way too online.

And if you go online, to, to X, I, I just started calling to X, I call it Twitter until it's still Twitter.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So but if you go online you have, you have these bots from all, all over the world trying to stir up trouble, trying to stir up divisiveness.

Telling you this is the worst it's ever been with this issue's the worst it's ever been.

That's right.

Your country's the worst.

Or whatever makes you mad.

That's going to be your algorithm every day.

Yeah.

And then you go outside and you actually talk to people that disagree with each other.

I can sit next to Mark, who's a Republican, and Mark and I have a lot in common, and I find that's the truth.

When I go to these these soccer games that I, I was at a Redwings game sitting next to a Republican, and we agreed on probably 95% of issues.

And that's that's America.

And so I think what John is talking about is our collective accomplishments as a country that are moving us forward.

But I also tell you, you know, yes, we've come a long way, from the past, but there is still so much good in our country today that if you go outside and you talk to your neighbors, you'll find it, too.

So, Adrian, is that the kind of speech that you would have given there in the what we just heard from John?

Oh, John.

John, John, John, John.

The Democratic Party is made up predominantly of some of the most at risk Americans lesbians, gays, transgendered, poor people, immigrants, people who have some of the roughest lives.

Okay.

It is one thing to celebrate the achievements of the past, and I'm all for it.

And I do it right.

But I will also ask, John, how much has he done to deal with the real problems in our country today?

Inequality, as at an all time high and continuing to accelerate poverty.

Like I just mentioned, kids who don't have access to quality education technology.

You talk about innovation.

Technology is threatening the future of the workforce.

And I could go on and on and on about some of the contemporary social ills that have to be dealt with today.

So here's what I would ask him.

Right.

It's it's one thing to celebrate the past and the champion, the achievements that have brought us this far.

But based on the quality of leadership that people like him in the current political class is delivering.

Could we trust you with solving the problems of those challenges you're championing from yesterday?

If the abolition of slavery was left to this Congress, you got it.

If it was left to this Congress, what kind of compromises would have set in?

Because what made America so unique?

It wasn't, oh, we're going to free people based on if they were born here or not, or the complexion or their gender or how many generations they've been enslaved.

America abolished slavery absolute and in total.

And the kind of leadership we get today is always trying to find the happy middle and straddle the fence and make everybody happy.

And we don't see those Herculean legislative achievements like we did before.

So I would say, as a region who is currently undertaking the greatest overhaul of education in the country right now, and I got to come back on to talk about.

That, just a whole different.

Because we are right.

So I'm not talking about someone who's, not undergoing the same work that I expect from everybody in elected office right now.

These problems are real, and the reason people are so angry is because they live in the consequences of the status quo, and those aren't good conditions to live in.

All right, Eve, what did you hear in that, south cliff?

I understand that Jon Ossoff is trying to rally the troops.

He's trying to get people enthusiastic about being involved in the democratic process.

And I think that's extremely important.

We have huge problems.

We've got to find somebody, a leader who can allow people to have some belief that they will lead them forward.

So I, I, I say kudos to Jon Ossoff for how he, you know, how he's addressing people.

And to Pete Buttigieg, who's out right now going to red states.

I mean, isn't that amazing?

But we need new models of leadership in this country.

Absolutely.

And it's got to be inclusive.

I mean, when you look at the Republican Party, that still is anti-gay, anti-transgender, racist.

No, this is not going to work for this country.

You know, Adrian, you talk about where would we be if we were trying to end slavery.

Now, you know, since Trump has come back into office.

I've said two things about Donald Trump.

One, wait, he's going to use the slavery word again because I'm sure he thinks that's a great idea.

I do.

And okay, if you really think Donald Trump thinks slavery itself is a good idea.

Look how much he could gain out of it.

Look at how much power he could have.

Look at how he could oppress people.

I mean, this is somebody who wanted to overturn birthright citizenship.

You don't have to argue to me that, you know, that he's sort of a big sort of equality for all guy.

I'm talking about the actual institution of slavery itself.

That's a you know, I spent about the last three years really studying, reading like crazy, not just about the American Revolution and about the history of this country, but about the history of the world.

And Adrian's right.

I mean, the whole history of the world is predicated on some man who gets a lot of power and then decides to enslave everybody else because that's how they can continue with their power.

Yeah.

And and I really don't see that that has changed a whole lot in the world.

If you look at where we are right now.

And I just, I just want to jump back in really quick because, I mean, you mentioned, you know, Pete Buttigieg and other names.

And I want to just make something very clear.

Today's challenges require a kind of leadership that we have not seen yet.

And when I think about what leadership has looked like over the course of this of time, and I've Marc has said it and you've said it too.

Right.

It started at the belly of slave ships.

It started on plantations.

It moved to backrooms and basements with abolitionists and anti-slavery societies, and moved into the streets during the civil rights in the black freedom movement.

And now I truly believe it has moved into the seats and halls of power.

I don't think there's ever been a time in our history where we could hold our elected officials more accountable, because we are the children of these problems.

We've all grown up in the consequences of poor decisions that were made at a time when these rooms didn't look as diverse and weren't as inclusive, and people were speaking on behalf of folks that they didn't really care about, and they didn't have a stake in what the consequences of those decisions will be on those lives.

And so it's not enough for us to only include different folks into the decision making process.

But we have to be authentic representation of those lived experiences in order to continue to enact the timeline of change to have brought us here.

If I was a black kid from inner city Rochester, single female head of household, father, incarcerated, domestic violence, drugs.

But somehow I was able to graduate high school, go to Yale, meet Bob Duffy, become a civic leader, be a New York state regent, serve my country.

What does that matter?

If now in a decision making capacity, I refuse to hold everyone with my lived experience?

Dear and centered and what I'm doing?

What what difference would it make?

Because what has happened, I think, with the with the, with folks now being included in decision making and ascending to power, is you can do so as long as you maintain the status quo.

And when you when you read some of these emails of discontentment for the country and you read some of the disillusionment is people who really need a solution.

They don't need iconography.

They don't need sloganeering.

They don't need politics as usual.

They need real solutions.

And the question is, are we assembling the kind of political class of people who can solve those problems?

And I'll say the number one problem, and I'm going to say this as a black man, the number one problem in the Democratic Party with our white counterparts is are those blacks?

Are those gays?

Are those lesbians?

Are those immigrants?

Are those poor people?

Are they really enough for you to sacrifice how your neighbors see you, how your donors view you?

Are they worth it to you?

Right.

And that's the real question that I think the Democratic Party has to grapple with amongst its predominantly white political leaders is are those people are those others really worth the risk to you?

Are their problems worth censoring because they use nice little covert language like electability?

I'm not sure you're electable.

I'm not sure you can get across the line on.

I think you'll cost us in the general, and that's just a nice way of sidelining and excluding people from the political process to maintain a status quo.

That's one of the flaws of the electoral process, is the ability to get there.

Yeah, I wanted to jump in because I it's not that I was offended, but I heard, you know, Republican and the word racist.

And I just want to point something out as a town supervisor in the town of gates, when the Open door mission wanted to put a home for, moms that were homeless in the city of Rochester, you know what they did?

They rejected it twice.

You know where it went.

I reached out to Opendoor Mission when I saw they were rejected.

These are predominantly minority single moms trying to raise their children.

I found a place for them in the town of gates.

Advocate had fought for it and got them located.

It's called a cold water house.

So, you know, I'm not saying that the rejection by the city was racist.

I'm saying that when you put a label, a general label, I don't think you meant it for all Republicans.

But not everybody feels that way, and not everybody acts that way.

And sometimes leaders in the Republican Party do the right thing.

That was a case where initially I took a lot of heat from my own party, but I did the right thing, and it worked out great.

It's fantastic.

They're doing well right now.

They're also, you know, something called Gates to Recovery for for people who are struggling with addiction.

Black, white, all, all sorts of people, mainly, predominantly, from the city that were getting services from us.

And we did that right in the town of gates.

I was one of the founders of Gates to Recovery.

I actually had a a sibling that was is has been an addict and struggled so but but people because of their party don't necessarily get labeled.

And again I don't mean I'm not picking on you.

I just it's one of those things where, you know, that's not.

While I understand that, we are seeing so much hatred in this country and that hatred is coming from one direction, it's not coming from the other direction.

The other direction.

We don't hate people, you know.

We don't hate immigrants.

We want to embrace immigrants because we're all the children of immigrants.

We want to have.

I embrace immigrants, I am the product of immigrants.

Right?

I mean, just think about what's going on right now.

Now, Maine was my adopted state.

I moved there in 94 and lived there until 2000.

And it's amazing state and my heart is with the people of Maine right now.

I was very active, in terms of, gay and lesbian rights there.

And that's where I met my wife.

And, you know, their hearts are breaking down.

I have a 26 year old man murdered on the streets of Biddeford, Maine, for no reason.

That does that's not coming from only that's coming only from one direction in this country, not both directions.

It's hatred.

But I don't want to get too derailed on the subject of political violence.

And I don't want to be the both sides gay.

There has been political violence that targets in different directions.

I understand Eve's point, though, that right now, in your perception of it, the hatred is flowing against your party and the people who vote and think and believe like you.

What we have in this room are for people with different backgrounds, different upbringings, in some ways different politics.

All four are professed patriots, and that's kind of what the subject is this conversation is about is do you still feel like you are a patriotic American 240 years in, and if so, why?

What does that mean?

Adrian's making a very interesting point.

If you achieve success, are you willing to challenge the status quo, even if it makes it uncomfortable for you?

Or will you allow the status quo to give yourself a comfortable life?

In sort of, in spite of others.

So really interesting points being made.

And when we come back from this only break, I've got a pile of your emails, which we could probably read for the next five hours.

We're just going to read a few, I've got phone calls to take and we're going to come right back with, we mentioned Adrian Hale, New York State region right now, among many other titles.

It's great to have him.

Yuval Zenga, a Rochester resident and a lifelong activist, Mark Cassini is a retired supervisor from the town of gates, and Nate Salzman is likely the next supervisor in the town of Brighton.

We'll come right back to your feedback next.

Coming up in our second Our Connection Summer sessions highlights my favorite connections interviews of the past decade.

And next hour we bring back a really stirring conversation with Mohammed Baba and Ralph Meyer.

They are South Africans who initially hated each other but ended up working together to end apartheid.

They came to Rochester to talk about how to solve seemingly intractable conflicts around the world.

That's next.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Hey Tim, she sends a note.

Producer Megan Mack.

We had to have Tim back on the program.

Tim is a lifelong Republican in Bloomfield, owns an auto shop, decided to run for office, couldn't get the designation of his own party.

Didn't really like the way it was handled.

Ran with Democrats and won.

And is the town supervisor down there and he says, I'd love to chime in.

He says, I call myself a patriot.

I'm a very lucky soul to have been born in the USA.

I'm willing to fight to the death to protect your right to disagree with me.

And that's from Tim.

That's a very, very good perspective on the notion of free speech and disagreement.

And, Tim, come back on the show some time.

Tell us how things are going, in your neck of the woods.

Nice to hear from you.

I'll continue down the line before I grab a phone call here.

Molly says I'm getting tired of people saying that our founding fathers believed in the doctrine that all men are created equal, when at the time, that was a blatant lie, that that did not they did not believe that those inalienable rights applied to people of color, slaves, indigenous Americans, or women.

At what point do we think that the Founding Fathers built something based off of a fallacy?

Molly, I'll let our guests jump in on this.

I will say I listened to Ken Burns talk about this.

Patrick, who emailed earlier, referenced Ken Burns and his recent Revolutionary War, documentary series on PBS.

Ken Burns talked about this, and he said, we ought to absolutely consider the fact that at the founding of this country, the people who wrote those incredible documents failed at living up to them, failed spectacularly at living up to them.

But they still gave the world a blueprint that most of the rest of the world, throughout human history was not adhering to, was not even attempting to do.

And the easy thing to do would have been to just consolidate power in the hands of the few forever.

So Ken Burns said, yes.

If you're going to color that perspective against them, that's appropriate.

But they still gave us the notional framework to which I think what Adrian said earlier is that we could grow into it.

We could find out.

That's right.

Do you do you feel that way?

I want to jump in and I want it.

So I don't really refer to them as the Founding Fathers.

I call them the framers.

I will call this, second gentleman a founding father of the country, though, because it was his life that brought us into America.

2.0 Frederick Douglass, our local patriarch.

So Frederick Douglass, who was born into slavery, lived as a slave, became friends with the most prominent abolitionist before him in the country, a man named William Lloyd Garrison of Boston.

He was a white man.

Garrison and Douglass were together for a long time, until it came down to where they stood on the Constitution.

And guess who was the advocate for the Constitution?

Guess who said no?

The Constitution doesn't have to be burned and ripped up.

We don't have to start all over.

We only have to live up to it.

Of the two of them, it was Douglass, right?

So regardless of what the framers thought of and and I would also say this to Molly, just because Jefferson was holding the quill, the American project is bigger than him, right?

Ultimately, the American aspiration is a deep human aspiration that draws people to this country.

For 250 years, people have wanted to be here and have contributed to the betterment of this place.

Right.

And I would say that you have to think beyond just them.

They gave us the mechanisms they gave us the machinery and Americans.

Right.

People willing to live up and do the work have been using those mechanism and machinery to create real, tangible progress.

The blueprint to inspire, to aspire to.

That's right.

Thank you Molly.

Different.

David, this is David in Vancouver, Canada.

He says, I've lived in Canada for over 30 years now, but I still feel a strong twinge of pride whenever I see the American flag.

I like to look in the distance at Mount Baker.

When I ride Vancouver Skytrain, I can still see a bit of America from where I live.

I have great pride in America's achievements.

That said, I'm very worried about what we face in the coming months, such as the worry that Trump will do something terrible to avoid defeat in the midterms.

Now is a very important time to prepare to protect American democracy, to be truly patriotic and do all we can to ensure that elections are free and fair.

All the very best to all in this discussion that is from different.

David Turek writes in to say to the caller who wants to go back to England, he ought to know what's going on in England.

It's no better.

It's probably worse.

Citizens are behind bars, immigrants are being flown out to other countries.

The list goes on.

That is from Tariq.

And let me grab Jack here from Greece on the phone.

Hey, Jack, keep it tight.

Go ahead.

Sir, I haven't.

Yeah I will.

Hey, you know, I just like to say that, listening to the show, so I'm unfortunate, but, my comments go back to, what is patriotism and why is it so low in the country today?

I guess it's implied, but I think about life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.

I think of patriotism, I think of America.

I don't think of my state.

I don't think of my party.

I don't think of of those type of things.

But I look at the country.

And to me, nobody should be surprised at the patriotism level or however people express it is the lowest it's been in years.

I think back to when I was eligible for the draft or the Vietnam War, and it was another time where people were very proud of the country, because it turns out our leadership lied about the war.

And today, if we fast forward and look at the greed and and the it's basically our leadership has deteriorated.

So if people tie that to the American flag and our country, I'm not shocked by that at all.

And what so what would it take to change that?

Well, I think everybody's got their own opinion on that.

But the idea of going, you know, the pride in the United States is obviously, you know, we have a history of being the greatest country in the world and well deserved.

Sure.

In terms of our military, in terms of standing up and doing the right thing.

But anybody today really trusts our leadership today to do the right thing in terms of the general population.

We have blue and red states, and the vision is getting deeper and deeper.

I never looked at it that way.

When I was growing up.

We were one country.

I don't feel that anymore.

So thanks for listening, Jack.

Thank you.

I will say this.

I have never seen an American leader so openly say that if you didn't vote for me, then I want less for you.

That is an un-American ideal.

And I didn't see that from George W Bush.

I didn't see it from Barack Obama.

I didn't see it from Bill Clinton.

I didn't see it from George H.W.

Bush or Reagan.

That probably needs to stop as soon as this president is out of the way.

Whether the next president is, is JD Vance, who Nate's rooting for or, you know, Mark or Marco Rubio.

I haven't tried to end my political career right now.

Or Jon Ossoff or Pete Buttigieg or Josh Shapiro, whoever, whoever.

That to me, the notion of I only serve my constituents.

You're likely to be the next supervisor in Brighton, right?

You're going to serve people who didn't vote for you, right?

And I'll tell you this, Evan, it's not the first time patriotism has been used to defend terrible policies.

Patriotism was the reason we we, we had Japanese internment camps during World War two.

Patriotism was the reason.

Why or the notion of patriotism.

The.

If you were against if you were against the Iraq War with forget the proof.

If you were against the war, you were unpatriotic.

Now, the difference is now when those soldiers come home, you know, I think the real shame is when the Vietnam veterans came home.

Yeah.

When the Iraqi war veterans came home to show, to show, to attack those folks, those folks who served our country, I think is wrong.

But to to attack the idea of going to war or to attack the Japanese internment camps, that's patriotic.

And so we have a we have a long history of of using patriotism, for a political angle.

And the refreshing thing on this program is that all of us, regardless of party or how we view the Democratic Party, internally, we can all say we're all patriots and we can agree that we are all patriots.

And so that's I think that's where you're going, where it'd be nice to get away from a politics of, well, if you don't agree with me, you're you're on Patreon.

Yeah.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

You know, I, I want to make a little bit of a distinction, though, with patriotism versus nationalism, which, I was thinking about this.

I made some notes on it, which nationalism is more.

I think what you're referring to is that national superiority, the self-interest, the, the, us versus them mentality, you know, and, and and that to me becomes a problem and it gets conflated with patriotism.

Patriotism is selfless.

It's inclusive.

It's for the betterment of the people.

You know, I wrote down here, you like this agent, those that volunteer in our community to help others, improving the human condition for Americans living right here in our community is patriotic.

That's patriotic.

The other, I think, is nationalistic.

People get nationalistic.

Patriotism includes the willingness to sacrifice for the greater good, greater good.

Nationalism is about sort of a chest beating.

All for me.

You guys wrapping yourself in a flag versus doing for others and making the human condition better.

I think selfless with about a minute left, I think that I'm glad this point came up.

I appreciate Mark's point.

If do you agree with that distinction?

I do agree with that distinction.

And I want to say in my closing statement here that the way to be a true patriot, I believe, at this point in time is to get to know your neighbors, be part of your community.

That's the most patriotic thing we can do.

That's why we had that big party, because we invited everyone to come and celebrate who we are.

Final thought from you, Adrian Hill.

Americans aren't born.

They are formed.

And they were formed by who we decide to become.

Each of us must grow and become what our times demand of us.

That has been the greatest model of leadership that has brought us this far.

And we are not exempt from that responsibility today.

Are you an optimist?

100%.

You are.

Eve, are you an optimist for the future of this country?

Yes I am.

Okay, we're going to make it.

I know Mark has seen.

He's going to say yes.

You're an optimist.

Amen.

I am, I love this country, even with all its flaws.

Let's make it better.

But absolutely.

And by the way, thank you for your service.

I didn't say that I appreciate it.

God bless.

And are you an optimist?

Absolutely.

To the point where I get teased about it.

Thanks to all of you for coming in.

And we're going to, you know, we'll have a lot more to say on this.

I have emails I could even get to this hour.

And I know there's a lot of a lot of views in a lot of different directions.

So we'll keep talking about this as this country turns 250 years old.

Thank you.

Nate Salzman, candidate for Brighton Town supervisor.

Thanks for being here.

Thanks.

Mark Cassini, a former Gates town supervisor, sir.

Thank you for being here.

My pleasure.

Our thanks to Eve El Zenga, a Rochester resident, a lifelong activist.

Nice to see you.

Thank you.

Always has the most stylish hats.

Thank you.

The most stylish hats in town in Adrian.

Hail, new York state region.

Come back.

Talk about the region's work, too.

Will you do.

That?

Oh, yes.

Would love that.

We got more connections coming up in a moment.

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