>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made a few months ago when I got one of the stranger emails.

I've gotten on the Connections line.

Alissa was asking if we were going to do a show about an update on the life of Adnan Syed, and I thought, well, I don't think I've ever met the guy.

In fact, I'm sure I haven't and I don't know why we would do that, but this listener remembered that when we talked about we used to do an annual show on podcasts, and back in the day, Serial was this big thing in 2014 when podcasts were not as big.

And for a large audience, that might have been what would start the whole idea of podcasts becoming more mainstream.

So we binged Serial, yes, but people like my colleague Veronica Volk were in on podcasts before then, and those are the folks who came on this program annually to talk about their favorite podcasts or what was new, what was different.

Get us caught up to date on what we were missing.

So no, I don't have an Adnan Syed update.

that's this is not going to be a show about Serial, although I do think he is not.

I literally googled it for this program.

I think he is not in prison and I think he is occasionally doing interviews, not with me.

but listen, there's all kinds of things we can talk about with podcasts.

158 million Americans listen to podcasts now, and the number of listeners has quadrupled in a decade.

So we thought it would be helpful to hear what's good, what's new, what's interesting.

We've pulled together some people who should know, and we're we're not just going to hawk WXXI podcast, although we're definitely going to do that too.

With Veronica Volk, my colleague, are we going to Hawk WXXI podcast?

>> Yes, we are.

And we're also going to fish for ideas.

So I would really love if your listeners could tell us what they're listening to, what they like, and what they want to hear more of because we are expanding our sort of slate of options here at WXXI.

And I'm, I'm looking for some for some new ways to reach our audiences.

So let us know.

>> Veronica's executive producer and director of podcast strategy for WXXI Public Media across the table is Carl Nellis.

Who is who is Carl is a senior producer and head of community for Good Egg Audio.

What's good egg?

>> we're a recently founded podcast collective.

We've been working together for a while.

Producers, engineers admin folks, and we've just launched a few months ago.

we're producing across entertainment, healthcare, some of the things we've been doing for a while in other contexts.

We just launched together as a Team United team under that name.

Good Egg Audio.

>> Well, welcome.

Thank you for being here.

And welcome to Jazzy T, founder of JazzCast Pros Podcast Network.

Nice to have you as well.

>> Thank you so much for having me on the show.

>> Tell the audience a little bit about what you do.

>> Yeah.

So JazzCast Pros Podcast Network we also do production so people come to us, they have an idea for a show, mainly small business owners.

they have a message that they want to get off.

They want to increase their audience and expand their message.

And we help them to not only develop, produce and distribute.

>> So it's become a bigger, much bigger business.

We know that now there are 500,000 active podcasts and 4.5 million podcast shows indexed globally.

So it's a lot to sort through.

It's a lot.

I find, Veronica, the reason that my podcast list is boring is because I don't know how to find stuff that's new and interesting, because I think there's so much of it.

>> It's really hard.

And I do think that, like Podcatchers and podcast platforms have gotten better at this, at recommending shows and sort of like the Amazon style of like, if you like this, you might like this.

You know, Spotify's algorithms are getting better at that as well.

but, you know, the best way to find out about new podcast is to have your friend tell you that they are listening to a podcast and that it's really good.

So that's what we're going to try to replicate here with this show.

>> And what people should be listening to every day.

>> Is Connections with Evan Dawson.

>> No, I mean, like, listen, I wasn't trying to tee that up.

Give me another WXXI.

>> Sure.

So WXXI Daily news podcast launched in September.

Actually it relaunched.

We brought it back.

it is just a short roundup of the day's news, and that includes some daily news headlines, as well as some of our enterprise reporting.

And of course, the most important thing is a cut of this show, which is like if you take all two hours of Connections and boil it down to one minute and 45 seconds, then that's what you get in this one with this podcast.

But it's a great way to sort of just like get a handle on what's going on in Rochester.

during the day, we have contributions from our city news team or, I'm sorry, our city magazine arts and culture team from some of our other colleagues across the station and of course, our very dedicated and talented news reporters.

>> It's really good.

>> It's really.

And it's hosted by Beth Adams, who is an absolute pro.

And she's amazing.

So great way to start your day.

>> And it's this nice, svelte chance for you to get caught up on.

If you feel like everything is hectic and sometimes, even if you feel like the podcast that you love, you can't listen to it in a single drive to work.

The WXXI Daily News podcast I bet you you can.

>> Absolutely.

It's under ten minutes.

And that's like, that's the challenge, right?

Is that there's so much content out there.

There's so much, so many platforms, so many shows competing for your attention.

we really wanted to make this short, to make it digestible because people are going to get those sort of longer form conversations on this show here with you, Evan, or in other, longer form shows that they listen to.

But the Daily News show is just less than ten minutes.

It's probably about the time of your commute, maybe a little bit shorter, so that you can listen to the show and maybe some of your favorite songs on the way in.

So hopefully it's it's easy for people to, to fit into their routine.

>> So listeners, tell us what you are listening to in the podcast world.

And maybe I should also say, tell us what you're listening to and watching.

I think I was reading that YouTube is now the number one venue.

jazz is nodding right along.

I know it's the most used platform for podcast Connections is on YouTube.

WXXI News has a YouTube channel about 1 in 3 listeners in surveys choose to consume podcasts through YouTube, and that would not have been the case ten years ago.

So that is a very interesting development for people, like watching people talk.

>> It's also really expanded the definition of what we call a podcast.

I think that I agree with that.

The people at this table, jazzy, we've talked about this.

Yes.

It's not a podcast unless it's an RSS feed.

Right.

Like there was a time and place for that mentality where a podcast was an audio product and that was like the primary delivery system was the RSS feed.

But now that YouTube's in the game, it is increasingly more visual.

and it's increasingly more resembling something like a chat show or an interview based show and something that's like a little bit easier to, like, film and publish, with, like more frequency than you'd see, like previously with a Serial or even a This American Life.

>> You want to add to that, Jesse?

What do you see there with that change in that development?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

So I was actually at Podcast Movement a couple of years ago where YouTube announced the feature where you can submit your RSS to YouTube because they really dedicated the last couple years to dominating in this podcasting space, and they've done a great job.

But I also think that there's still two different audiences, just probably the same as you experience here.

You have those who watch you and you have those who listen to you.

And what I love about podcasting that you can listen to is because you can do it while you're doing something else, while you're washing dishes, working out, driving, or whatever the case, when I sit down to watch YouTube, it's usually later on at night when I really don't have anything else going on.

Maybe I'm planning to fall asleep to it or things like that.

So I still think as a producer you produced audio and video podcasts somewhat different, thinking about different audiences in mind.

For example, if you are listening to us on the radio right now and I say, yeah, I was this close to hitting that car, you don't know if I'm saying a little bit or if I'm saying a whole lot, right?

You really have no context in that.

So you still have to keep those things in mind.

As a producer.

>> No, that is a very interesting difference there, because you're right.

When I'm on YouTube, I want to try to focus more on it than if I'm if I'm working out, I'll throw a podcast in.

If I'm driving a long way.

But it is different dynamics there and good advice, by the way, for anybody who's creating podcasts or wants to hire someone who's creating podcasts.

>> And I can also add to that too.

So the barrier to entry on an audio podcast is much less than video, not only because of the obvious equipment and lighting and cameras and angles and editing.

Right?

That's kind of the obvious stuff.

But as women, it takes a lot of work to get ready, you know, to be camera ready.

Whereas.

excuse me, the audio right on audio, you can roll out of bed and you're in your bathrobe and put your microphone on and get your show out.

So it does create that barrier for a lot of women to show up consistently on a video podcast.

>> I mean, Karl, you're looking good too, though that could not have been easy.

>> Well, thank you, but but to to tag on to that.

Yeah.

It's changed some of the shows that I make, a show I've produced for a long time, three years now.

snafu with Ed Helms is a history show, and it was seasonal.

And over the course of 8 to 10 episodes, we would tell a long, deep dive historical story.

that was the first three seasons.

And then we switched to video.

And in this different, asking a guest, for instance, to come and get ready to be on camera versus just coming to be on mic.

And so it really changed that production process.

it's the same show we've been making for a long time, but making it's different.

And the things you're asking of from guests is a little bit different.

And the product obviously is different, but it's fun to be able to capture the facial expressions when when a, you know, Ed Helms is a comedian and he tells jokes in the midst of historical storytelling, and to be able to see the reactions of people do, it's great.

So you can understand why things have moved that way.

But it's definitely a change.

>> That was, by the way, a very seamless little drop right in there.

Like you're working with some really interesting and talented and well-known people there.

Carl what is it like working with Ed Helms?

>> He's great.

You know, I expected I was going to meet Andy from the office, but he in, you know, or.

>> Real life.

>> Or Stu hangover, you know, but he's he's a very thoughtful collaborator, a really, really loves history.

And so when I started working with him, it was a pleasure to realize we were meeting on that, on that ground where we both love the, you know, the way engaging history and telling these stories and taking it seriously.

You know, really, he was pushing us always to do the kind of research I wanted to do.

So that was great.

But then tell it with humor and jokes and even we're getting into dark territory.

So very thoughtful collaborator, and it's been a pleasure to work with him.

>> So this is where I think there's this interesting moment in the evolution of podcasts to me, where it starts to look a little like the old blog conversations.

So blogs were popular at the turn of the century in the early internet, and by 2008, 2009, everybody was like, should I have a blog?

I mean, like if you worked at a hardware store, it's like, should we have a blog?

Everybody thought they should have a blog, and then people realized like, it's not good enough, just put a blog out.

Like first it has to be really good.

Second of all, people have to find it.

So I think people are asking like, should I have a podcast?

Companies are putting podcasts out and and people are buying time on commercial radio.

People are doing their own stuff.

When you've got an Ed Helms, you have a cachet from the jump that will help establish an audience.

Although it has to be good, I think, to get people to come back.

When you are working with clients who don't have that, which maybe both of you can talk about.

and the challenge is we got to get something off the ground, but it's not good just to.

It's not good enough just to make it.

Then you've got to find a way for people to find it.

How do you help with that?

Jazzy T.

>> So I would say it depends on what your definition of success is, right?

So when you were saying like, oh, it has to jump off right off, you know, if you are somebody who has a community, if you are a business owner, if you have clientele, if you have an email list, right, you could be making your podcast for them, for people who are interested but haven't quite bought into what you're selling yet, they have an opportunity to get to know you better via podcasting, know your service better, understand the pain points that you help to solve so it doesn't have to be a chart topping podcast for it to be successful.

So the main thing is to let people know that are around you.

And I work with a lot of small business owners, and so we use it as a marketing tool.

So let people know, yes, you can come into our store, you can come to my website.

You can also listen to my podcast.

Right.

It's just another way for them to reach you and connect with you.

And we all know in business, you know, people buy stuff from people that they know, like and trust and long form content, especially podcasts, is a great opportunity for people to get to know you, start to like you, and then trust and eventually buy from you.

>> Do clients ask you straight out like, should I have a podcast?

>> Well, a lot of times when people come to me, they already have it in their mind that they want a podcast.

Actually it's funny at least 80% of my clients have had some sort of microphone or some sort of podcast equipment that they've bought sitting on a shelf and just didn't open it because they weren't sure how to do it.

There's a lot that goes into it, more than just turning on a microphone.

There's a lot of branding, there's a lot of development.

Who is your target audience and things like that.

And so when you have a coach, you have an accountability partner, because that's another thing too.

If you don't have someone checking in on you, making sure you're posting consistently, it's easy to, you know, fall by the wayside.

And so that's why working with professionals can help you to do that.

>> Well, and then that whole idea of you got to get them to come back, it's got to be good.

I was searching around trying to find various interviews with Ken Burns and his team before the PBS series The American Revolution, because we knew that at least one of the team members was going to be on Connections, and I wanted to hear what they were saying about it.

So I actually listened to an interview that Ken Burns did with Ted Danson, and it was really good.

I was like, this is lovely.

It was it was very different than most of the interviews I heard with Ken Burns and his colleagues who were on that project.

It was thoughtful and sort of off the beaten path.

And I was like, do I want to listen to Ted Danson's podcast regularity?

I'm like, I kind of do.

Yeah, but I wouldn't have come back for more if I didn't like it right away.

So it's the same thing with Ed Helms or a name that's the name may get somebody there, but it's got to be good to get people to come back here, and you still got to keep standing out in the sea of 500,000 podcasts, right?

>> Yeah.

>> So.

So take me through a little bit of the process of creation that says, okay, do we have to do something new, or do you have to hone something that's unusual or different?

>> Well, I'm thinking about another client.

We work with a big hospital to do their kind of public health show, where they wanted to reach a general audience.

And there was a long development process of talking through what kinds of stories you want to tell.

What do you want it to sound like?

Whose voices should be in the show, and making sure that the things listeners were going to hear would be useful to them.

It would keep them engaged.

It wouldn't be too long.

It would fit into their life, and it would provide helpful health care information across the fields of medicine that we were going to feature.

And even that question of what fields of medicine we would feature.

We worked with an editorial team on the marketing side of the hospital to hone that, but it took a long time to make sure that we were really delivering what they wanted to deliver to the public, to be helpful to the people who they wanted to reach with the show.

so I totally agree with what Jazzy T said.

It depends on who you want to reach and what kind of engagement you want to have with them.

And one of the things we did with the hospital was feature doctors feature the voices of their doctors so that listeners would know what the doctors sound like and get a sense of their personality alongside their expertise in medicine.

And that was to get people, you know, give people a sense of what's going to what's it going to be like when you're in the room talking with that doctor?

And I think that's true for a lot of, you know, across businesses where you're saying if someone wants a podcast, one of the things they can do with it is give a sense of what it's going to be like to work with them.

You can hear their voice, you can hear them in conversation.

You can know how you might be treated when you talk with that person.

And that can be really attractive.

If you think, I really like the way that person relates to others, that's something you can communicate in audio.

I mean, here we are in audio.

That's something you can communicate in audio that doesn't come off the page of a blog.

>> Well, I think we've got some clips to share on stuff that maybe Veronica thought stood out from this year.

>> Yeah, so I'm not going to break any break any like huge I'm not going to do any upsets here on this show.

These these shows.

>> You mean like like these uncovered gems.

>> Out there?

Oh, no.

These are.

>> Pretty mainstream.

popular shows, but mainstream to me is still.

I'm missing it.

>> Well, that's what.

So you're my target audience in this.

Evan.

You are the person, the audience that I'm targeting with my list is like people who they know that they love podcasts because they love Serial.

They maybe, like, listen to This American Life and Radiolab back when it was hosted by John Robert.

but they their lives are busy.

They fell off.

They're not listening as much.

Here are I have a few shows that I'd love for you to listen to, to sort of dip your toe back into the water.

Besides Connections with Evan Dawson and the WXXI Daily news podcast, of course.

and so, like, I really picked shows that fell into one of three categories.

The first one is just like stories of the human experience in which people go through change.

these are stories that are like in the tradition of the IRA Glass storytelling model that he plays out in This American Life.

And number one is heavyweight.

Of course, this is a much beloved show, of course, by public radio legend and audio storytelling superstar Jonathan Jonathan Goldstein.

he worked on This American Life.

He worked on wiretap for CBC, and the premise of the show is that people come to him to solve their unfinished business.

So they they want to find someone that they've lost, or they want to write some sort of wrong in their past.

And he does this very interesting thing where he applies investigative journalism to just like real human lives.

the show does some industry background.

The show was actually canceled by Spotify in 2023, but it was brought back to life by Pushkin Industries, where Karen works.

Former WXXI or Karen shout out.

And so, like the new season is fantastic.

And I have a clip from my favorite episode, which is called Kevin.

And I remember listening to this episode in the gym the other day and like, crying on the treadmill, but we're just going to play a clip from that first from that episode.

>> Kevin's email doesn't begin with any small talk.

No long time listener, first time writer preamble.

He gets right into it.

My little brother and I grew up destitute, Kevin writes in a public housing project in Sacramento.

He goes on to say that life back then was only made bearable by the presence of two boys who lived next door.

And this is why he's writing.

Kevin hasn't seen them in over 30 years, but he still hasn't forgotten them.

The two boys, his friends Jason and Gerald.

Can you hear me?

>> Yeah, I can hear you.

Can you hear me?

>> Yes, yes.

Great.

The path that led him to Jason and Gerald is long and circuitous.

Kevin begins the tale back in the third grade, sitting in class, reading.

>> I was reading a book on the gremlins.

>> Based on the movie.

>> You had to cover was the theatrical poster of the movie, and I remember it was during that moment that the teacher just said, hey, we got to go to the principal's office.

And when you're a kid, that's kind of memorable because I thought initially I was in serious trouble.

>> Okay, so I want to find these guys.

Do we find them?

>> I'm not going to give the ending of the show.

but here's what I will say.

heavyweights is a show that is a very heavy lift, which is probably why Spotify canceled it in 2023.

A lot of these investigations go on for years, and the reason people call Jonathan Goldstein is because they can't find this person on Facebook.

So a lot of the episodes are some of the episodes don't have a great payoff.

This episode has a great payoff.

It's a beautiful, emotional, very sad at times, but also very like endearing at times story.

So it's a great lesson.

And I and also like these these investigations sort of like take you into a piece of like human nature, human life that you maybe wouldn't otherwise visit.

So.

>> So.

>> I want to make sure I understand, though.

He's not just doing the I can't find an old friend on Facebook.

Help me figure out what they're doing in life.

Is he.

>> No no no no.

So he so he will find people that sometimes people have lost touch with people that they love.

And he will reconnect them if he can.

sometimes it's like bringing them together so that they can speak so that someone can apologize for something or can reconnect with somebody or in some ways make amends or confess or have some sort of resolution to this this unfinished business or this regret that they have.

>> I've got some of those on my list.

I'm going to call this guy, see if he can help me out.

>> Yeah.

So it's a great it's a great.

Listen, if you haven't listened, there's many, many episodes of the show, but the latest season is really good.

>> I'm already hooked on this one.

>> And some of the music you might recognize from another WXXI podcast called exited.

So that's beautiful.

>> Yeah.

and last thing I'll say about this little, this particular little vignette we just heard is even for people who did not grow up, as he says, destitute, there's probably somebody who maybe in your early childhood, maybe in your teenage years was special to you in some way, maybe grew up on your street or something like that, and you haven't seen in years and you can't find and they're not on social and you just wonder, like what happened to their life.

You know, I just I wonder how they're doing that's such a relatable feeling.

And yet you add in the power of the relationship when apparently the two people that the caller was looking for helped sustain him through some really hard times just adds it to another level.

Yeah, that's going on the treadmill list for me there.

That's really good.

>> Be careful it's not in public.

You may cry.

>> Okay, before we get to more here and I will ask as well, I'm going to ask all three of our guests what they're listening to, what's interesting, what they like.

let me grab a phone call from Ellie in Fairport.

Who's listening?

Hey, Ellie.

Go ahead.

>> Hi, there.

well, I wanted to jump in already with a with a recommendation, because I think what you guys are going off of right off the bat is some heavier stuff.

And my preference when I listen to podcasts personally, is I like to remove myself from reality a little bit.

And I like to listen to some lighter stuff.

And so one of the things that I like to listen to, because it doesn't really the day to day does not affect this is, is food podcasts and cooking podcasts.

And there's one in particular that I think Connections listeners might really enjoy.

And it's called home cooking.

And it was born out of a desire to figure out what to do with what's in your fridge during lockdown.

And it has it has the same sort of vein as Lynne Rossetto Kasper used to have on The Splendid Table and but it's with Samin Nosrat, who's a very well-known cookbook author, and she has a new book out as well.

and Hrishikesh Hirway, who is the podcaster behind The West Wing Weekly and Song Exploder.

And the two of them have this incredible dynamic where he's not necessarily a cook, but she is.

And people call in and leave them messages.

And so they answer all of these questions together.

But it started as a four part podcast during lockdown.

And what it's turned into is a 20 part podcast.

They've just recently brought it back to life.

this past fall, I think actually late August to, to make it a real thing because the demand was so high, people loved it so much.

So I just wanted to put in a plug for that one because if people haven't heard of it, it is just a delight.

And there are so many dad jokes.

The food puns are out of this world.

so that's called home cooking.

And it's available on any platform that you can find.

>> Thank you, I love that.

>> and can I ask a quick question, Ellie?

>> Sure.

>> Is it true that you're a WXXI News daily podcast listener as well?

>> I am, you know, can I I'm going to tell you what I love about it.

I used to have to wait until the half hour to hear the local news.

So if I'm going downstairs at 715, I have to listen to the other stuff before I get to what I really want, which is knowing what's going on in my in my area.

So having that ability to download that eight minutes to start my day is perfection.

So kudos to you guys for bringing that back.

Thank you so much for that, Ellie.

>> Awesome.

Thank you very much.

What a great piece of testimony there.

Veronica Volk.

>> Ellie, don't tell them I told you to call in.

No, that's so nice.

First of all, thank you so much for being a daily news listener.

But also, I love that recommendation because it's like a cooking show podcast that how on earth is that going to work?

But it does.

I just think it's like, that's such a great rack, I can't wait.

I have it written down here, I can't wait to listen to it.

But I just like when she when she talks about it.

I here here's like a potentially niche subject that can reach an audience of people that like maybe are interested in dabbling in cooking.

Maybe there's like, rich cooking sounds.

I don't know, the storytelling.

Hrishikesh Hirway is a fantastic producer.

Song exploder is such a good show.

so yeah, that's awesome.

I love that.

>> Thank you Ellie.

That is awesome.

Listeners, we want to hear from you.

What are your favorite podcasts in 2025?

Doesn't have to be new this year, but I mean, certainly that's even better if you got something new that's on your radar to put on our radar.

8442952 if you want to call 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you call from Rochester 2639994, email the program Connections at WXXI.

All right.

Jazzy T, what are you listening to right now?

>> Well, my, listening tastes might be a little bit different.

I one of my favorite shows is actually called Next Level Soul, and it's primarily a YouTube podcast.

And what I love about it is the the host, Alex, he comes from Hollywood.

He comes from the filmmaking, you know, big explosions and that type of thing.

And he found himself hosting a spiritual podcast.

So it's wonderful production, and he's able to talk about the shift in consumption from not always, you know, like crime or, you know, big dramas and this and that, but really, like looking within.

So the type of people that he talks to, you know, are really on their own spiritual journey.

And I love to see the way that his podcast has evolved.

and then I'll go over to the diary of a CEO, which actually made it on the top list on both the Apple and the Spotify Top for 2025.

And actually, Steve Bartlett, he's out of the UK and he started talking to obviously CEOs and big successful names.

Right.

He just recently had Michelle Obama on there.

But he digs really deep into again, it goes back to like this spiritual like this kind of like quantum reality things.

That's that's the type of stuff that I'm really, really into.

And I can go really, really deep into the corners of the podcast universe on that type of stuff.

All right.

>> Carl, what's on your list right now?

>> kind of like Ellie.

I often listen to escape a little bit when I'm not listening to the news.

and a recent show that I've really loved.

New, new this year is called.

This Guy sucked.

And it's a history podcast hosted by a professional historian, academic historian.

but it's kind of a historian's break room where she always.

Her name is Claire Aubin.

She always has another historian on as the guest to talk about their most hated historical figure.

And so you can kind of I can imagine it being kind of the grad student lounge conversation in audio, but you're getting you're getting these historical experts.

You're you're usually, you know, published scholars teaching at some university.

But this is the chance for them to kind of let loose on the historical figure who they think did the worst things or personally bothers them the most, or they had the most trouble researching.

And so you're usually getting some great history.

But it's funny, it's warm.

And again, you're getting a sense of who these people are as they talk about what they do or don't like about often studying history, researching, writing, teaching.

So you kind of get a little glimpse into their world through how studying history makes them feel.

And so it's really it's fun and funny, but also teaches little history along.

>> The this guy sucked.

>> That's right, that's right.

>> This guy sucked, by the way.

Obviously you're big into history.

That's right.

Producing consuming.

Are you disturbed at all that Darrell Cooper is as popular as he is?

Do you know who he is?

>> yeah, I do, I do, and yeah, it bothers me about it.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

Darrell Cooper is is kind of a self-styled historian, although I'm not sure he has the credentials to claim the title, but he's the one who showed up on Tucker Carlson's podcast this year, saying that the real villain of World War II was Churchill.

And yeah.

so anyway a lot of interesting.

Everybody's got a podcast, I guess.

okay, so after we take our only break of the hour, we're going to come back.

We've got more clips to share with you.

Our guests are going to be not only responding to your ideas, but we're also going to talk a little bit more about where we think podcasts are going.

one of the things I want to talk to them about is how we can be kind of smarter consumers.

And I'm not trying to be kind of condescending.

I'm trying to get away from sports, podcasting.

It's so the same thing all the time, and it's not all that interesting.

It's probably not great for my brain, but at the same time, I'm even more concerned with short term, short form stuff.

There's a raft of new research that's been coming out in the last week.

We've seen some stories and they want more study of it, but there's concern about what short form consumption.

When you sit for an hour and you just do a short form, short form, short form it's kind of a form of brain rot.

It's not great.

So what are we doing to kind of keep ourselves sharp and smart as consumers?

We're going to come right back with Jazzy T, founder of Jazz Cast.

The JazzCast Pros Podcast Network and Carl Nellis is with us.

Karl is the senior producer and head of community for Good Egg Audio.

Veronica Volk executive producer and director of Podcast Strategy for WXXI Public Media.

Coming up in our second hour, a conversation about why we hold our teenage years in such high regard.

A recent YouGov poll was asking Americans, when was music the best in this country?

When was food the best?

When was the economy the best?

When were communities the strongest?

When were people the kindest?

Most of us are saying our teenage years, no matter how old we are, how can that be?

We'll talk about it next hour.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Excellus Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Working with members to find health coverage for every stage of life, helping to make care and coverage more accessible in more ways for more people across the Rochester community.

Details online at excellus ebsco.com.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson jazzy just told me something that I think would have surprised me a little bit.

What were you just telling us during the break?

>> Oh yes.

I was just looking at the top 2025 podcast on the Apple Podcast list, and there are no sports podcasts on the list this year.

>> Good.

First of all, good.

As a big sports fan myself.

But second of all, like, I wonder if that's just because there's so much out there that it just pulls people in so many different directions.

I mean, Barstool, I'm sure is big.

There's some that are probably bigger than others, but it's almost like it's an overcrowded see, it seems to me.

>> Yeah, it definitely seems to be part of it.

I mean, you have like 30 for 30 and like Carmelo Anthony, he has a really popular podcast as of right now.

But when we're talking about charted, and I think that a lot of the consumption is also moving over to the short form.

And video is definitely huge in it too, because people want to see the highlights and see what you're specifically talking about.

But I thought that was really interesting because again, a couple years ago at a podcast movement over in Denver, that's all these show buyers, the show runners were looking for is the next great sports podcast.

And then that just like nosedive, and they're not really looking for that unless you're a top tier celebrity or, you know, somebody like a Michael Jordan who has some, some real background and insight.

>> Yeah, I mean, a couple.

Oh go ahead.

>> I was going to say I am curious.

>> About whether I'm curious about whether or not that has to do with sort of the localization of sports content and whether the fact that, like, you can make a bills podcast and only reach bills fans.

that's not going to it's not going to chart you, but you are going to have like repeated dedicated listeners, and you're still going to have like a really popular show rather than like covering sports, which is just such a vast genre.

>> You are for sure, right, that in general, the vast majority of podcasts in the sports genre are targeted.

So there's there's probably 7 or 8 regular bills podcasts at least out there.

There's the same for every sports team.

And then there's the big players, as Jesse was saying, maybe you're a huge sports figure, or maybe you're a former ESPN or who's got a podcast and you do whatever you want.

Jim Rome, people like that, right?

but I mean, it was a couple of years ago that Shawn, we even talked about this on the air.

It's not breaking any news.

Shawn Nelms and I talked about doing a podcast.

We were going to jokingly call it the Long Suffering Podcast because I'm a Cleveland Browns fan.

Shawn's a Buffalo Bills fan.

Neither franchise has ever won a Super Bowl.

The Browns have never been to a Super Bowl.

And our joke was going to be, we're going to do a podcast on this until one of the two franchises wins the Super Bowl.

So probably forever.

And then we realized that is so much content to create.

We didn't have enough Jazzy T in our life to get it done.

And it's a lot of work.

So that's one thing that you find out when you you take on a podcast, Jesse, is if you're serious, it's it's a lot to put out there.

I mean, it's like you, you can do a great you can do a great podcast, a great episode, a great season.

But the wheel is always churning.

Right.

>> And one thing I just wanted to hit on based on something that Veronica had mentioned too, and based off a talk that I'm pitching to South by Southwest for 2026 is the middle class of podcasting.

And so you don't have to go out there with the intention of being like the number one or in the top ten or anything like that.

But if you can focus on your niche and your local community, and I and I hope and I pray and I will encourage some more of this ad spend to go towards these community podcasts, because they actually have more influence than some of these bigger celebrity driven podcasts as well.

So I'm coining that term.

The middle class of podcasting.

So we're hoping to get that on the stage at South by Southwest this year.

>> All right.

I mean, look, we're covering a lot of ground here, and I got a lot of emails that we'll read in the back half of the program here.

But let's get to more of the clips if we got if we could.

Is that.

>> All right?

Yeah.

I'm thinking about Ellie because my next clip is also a heavy show.

So apologies in advance.

this is from a show called The Retrievals Season two.

So season one was so first of all, it's hosted by a woman named Susan Burton.

She's another This American Life alum.

And season one of the show focused on a nurse at a fertility clinic that was replacing the fentanyl with saline, which is horrible.

but especially because women who were going through egg retrieval were experiencing extreme pain.

And the interesting part of the story is not necessarily like what happened during these procedures, but what happened after, because the way that these women were being responded to was to be ignored or you know, women's pain is chronically sort of ignored in medicine.

This is well documented.

So after the show comes out, Burton gets a bunch of emails from women who are experiencing a ton of pain in another procedure, cesarean sections.

So this subject matter is heavy.

But Burton has a very interesting writing style that keeps it from being too grotesque.

And the most interesting part to me was how she frames the show like a medical drama.

So if you like the pit, or if you like the E.R., you can hear some of those references in her writing.

So we'll play a clip from the first episode of that show called The Case right now.

>> 6 a.m.

in Chicago.

Of course, the shot starts at the lake.

Camera pans over the water and the magnificent buildings rise from the shoreline, twinkling in the dawn light.

We continue across the city.

Still bird's eye view over the grid, over the elevated tracks and wide highways coming to rest in a western suburb.

Drop down to a brick bungalow where inside a woman, late 30s, move softly past the bedrooms where her children sleep and steps out the front door to meet the morning wind chill of 20 below.

She hurries to a minivan and as she pulls away from the curb, we see the streets frosted with salt, the moon shining high and hard, and we see her work I.D.

where she keeps it on the center console.

The words board certified R.N.

and her name in all caps.

This is Mindy Figueroa.

Mindy says she was made to be a nurse.

>> It I think I was just born to be in healthcare.

>> So that episode follows a a story of a woman who was in health care who who has her child at her local hospital and experiences this pain.

So it's produced by the New York Times and Serial.

So, you know, it's good.

And it's another example of like this narrative investigative podcast.

And it falls into the second category of my favorites, which is more of a true crime investigation.

>> Are you a true crime person?

>> Oh, I'm such a true crime person.

>> Are you guys true crime ers?

>> Some.

Yeah.

>> No.

>> Evan, I made finding Tammy Jo.

Of course I.

>> Which, by the way, is still a great podcast.

>> Thank you very much.

>> Yeah.

and still.

>> Shout out to Gary Craig.

He was a great partner in that, in that project.

>> But I think what we just heard, you can hear how well produced it is.

And I want to read an email from a listener named Sarah.

because I think it we maybe should draw a distinction on a point here.

Sarah says I still don't know for sure what makes a podcast a podcast.

I'm listening to Connections right now.

Am I listening to a podcast?

>> Depends on where she's listening.

>> Well, wait, are you listening right now at 1244 and 59 seconds on this day, like, it's it's if you're listening to the live linear broadcast, then you're not listening to a podcast.

But the show is a podcast after it is produced.

>> So I think though.

>> Or after it's broadcast, rather.

>> Sarah, I think Sarah's question might get at some of what our guests were talking about, what the rise of YouTube, which is obviously Connections on YouTube.

I hope everybody finds it there.

But interview formats are easy, pretty easy to put on YouTube.

And I think in the podcast world the audience is a little more accepting of you know, Joe Rogan sets kind of grungy, but who cares?

People wanted Joe Rogan, right?

So they put that on video.

People watch it.

you don't have to have the highest production that you would on, like a network television.

So there's a little bit lower barrier for entry, although I'm sure Jesse would say still should be good.

I'm sure, I'm sure Carl would say the same.

but a conversation that ends up on YouTube can certainly be a podcast, but a it's different to me than a Radiolab or what we just heard with retrievals.

or I think what we heard prior that that Veronica played, I just feel like maybe we should be separating the different genres.

>> I don't think so.

No, no, I think that does a disservice to the audience.

Actually.

I think that people like all kinds of content, like the kinds of movies that I like are going to be very different than the kinds of movies that other people like.

Right.

Like I have, I have tastes that align to these, like certain genres, like the humans changing or the true crime, or we'll get to the other one, which is tech journalism, because I heard you like A.I., so I brought an A.I.

show on but I think that like, a podcast is, it's if you define it as like a regularly updating audio and now video product that you subscribe to.

>> Audio with optional video, but it's audio.

>> Yeah.

It can't not be audio.

>> Well that's.

No that's it though.

But isn't that so.

Sarah wants a definition.

The definition would be it is an audio product.

>> I don't think so anymore.

I mean, like for, you know, for me.

>> It's an audio product.

First.

>> I don't think that's true at all.

>> If you have a video podcast, you would say the word video.

I think if you have an audio only podcast, you would say, I have a podcast.

Maybe that's part of it.

Another distinction that I, I often bring up to people, because I've been in broadcasting for 25 years.

Right.

So what's the difference between broadcasting and podcasting?

Right.

So when we're broadcasting, we're trying to reach a wide audience, right?

We're talking about a bunch of different topics, and podcasting tends to think of like peas in a pod, right?

It's kind of like vertical.

You kind of have an idea of what the show is mainly about, right?

So it's a small business.

Female entrepreneurs in Rochester, New York.

Right.

So this is kind of the main idea, right?

That's a podcast.

So a lot of these that you're bringing up, they have a central theme in mind.

Right.

Whether that's different from broadcasting.

And what I've also seen is a lot of broadcast stations will turn their content into podcast.

Right.

And the key word there would be on demand and online.

>> Right.

>> Okay.

So you can go online to access this at your leisure.

>> And in the digital media ecosystem that distinguishes it from something like streaming, where, you know, streaming, maybe you could access it afterwards.

But the idea is that it's live and there's going to be live interaction between the performer or whoever's putting out the stream with an audience who's there?

You know, it's going to be on demand when you hear podcasting, you know that's an on demand product.

It could be video, it could be audio, and it might be an on demand version of a radio broadcast or a digital stream.

But it kind of tells you how you're going to interact with the format.

You're going to push play when you want to, when you're on your commute or doing your dishes or vacuuming.

At the end of the day.

>> hi.

>> Good answers and I hope it helps.

Sarah there.

Fair question.

Sarah, thank you very much.

I'll squeeze in a few before we get this last clip on feedback from listeners, because otherwise I don't want to miss the chance.

Oria, who says Aria says she's an avid listener and says, here are some podcasts on finance.

Minority mindset, Cody Sanchez and your rich BFF on general and comedy.

Diary of a CEO Theo Von Joe Rogan.

This is important.

Two bears, one cave.

Bill Burr and Man Enough, which discusses toxic masculinity and how it emerges in culture and where it stems from in science.

StarTalk.

ologies.

Allergies.

Ologies.

Sorry.

And this podcast will kill you.

and then says there's more.

Plus y'all on Connections.

I just can't fit them all.

All right, that's a good list.

>> That's a that.

>> Is a long.

>> List, wide range of of topics.

>> That's a.

>> Great kudos to your listener there for just having so many different interests.

That's great.

Is StarTalk the one with Neil deGrasse Tyson?

>> I think that's correct.

>> Okay.

Yeah.

And Ologies also like big thumbs up.

>> I don't know.

Ologies.

>> So that's like new to me.

There we go.

See, we're trying to get new recs here, so thanks, Aria.

Okay.

>> let me get into my final rack.

Final rack.

Okay, so shell game.

Have you heard of it?

>> No.

>> So a tech journalist?

well, actually, let's start from the beginning.

Evan Ratcliffe is the founder of Atavist, and he's the former host of the Long Form Podcast.

Are you familiar with this?

He's one of the co-hosts.

>> Of.

>> That show.

Yeah.

Okay.

So in the first season of the show, Ratcliffe Ratcliff, excuse me, created an A.I.

voice clone of himself and sort of, like, set it loose on his life.

And he was like, I'm going to have this voice clone do a bunch of stuff.

He's going to, like, make my appointments, but also he's going to catch up with my friends.

Great.

So in this season.

>> Of the show, it.

>> It's me.

I'm so sorry.

It well, so that kind of gets into.

>> This.

Okay.

Sure.

>> So the second season is shell game season two, which we're in right now takes this experiment a little further.

It documents his attempt to form an A.I.

company.

So remember the show startup from gimlet?

Yeah.

Okay, so it's like that, but, like, if all the employees were A.I., which is, I'm sure your nightmare.

So he's testing this idea.

So he sets up this company of like, A.I.

agents, but he does this weird thing where he gives them all names and voices and, like, genders, and he really starts to anthropomorphize them, and he runs into all these weird, like, philosophical and ethical questions along the way.

So this clip is from their second episode called Outdoor Debugging, which was just a bunch of chaos created by this experiment.

Ratliff has set up a few of these agents.

He had them design a logo, and now he's trying to hold a meeting with them where they can decide what they do because they still haven't figured this out.

but one of the problems that they have is that the A.I.

agents don't can't tell each other's voice from each other, so they don't know who is talking at any given time.

So we'll pick up their anyway.

>> The end result was that on a three way zoom, my voice agents couldn't tell who was talking.

If I said something to Kyle, he'd think it was Megan or vice versa.

I did craft a partial solution to this problem.

I forced everyone, including myself, to announce themselves every time they said anything.

>> This is Kyle.

On.

This is Kyle.

No worries, Evan, I'm here and ready when you are.

Megan, anything new on the marketing front while we wait?

>> This is Evan.

>> This is Megan.

>> Just hold up.

Just hold up, everyone.

Just hold up for a second.

>> This is Kyle.

sure thing.

Evan.

We'll hold tight.

Megan.

Anything you want to add while we wait?

>> This is Evan.

Kyle, stop asking Megan to.

>> This is Kyle things.

This is Kyle.

Got it.

Evan I'll hold off on the questions for now.

All right?

Okay.

This is Kyle.

>> stop.

>> This is Kyle.

Stop it.

This is Kyle.

Okay?

Okay.

Evan.

I'm stopping.

No more interruptions from me.

What's next on the agenda?

>> One thing I noticed.

Kyle always seemed to be the one stepping on everyone.

This.

Despite the fact that he and Megan underneath the hood were using the same large language model.

ChatGPT.

And they had the same interruption threshold setting.

Maybe it was just my imagination, but it was almost like Kyle was embodying his role as Valley Startup CEO a little too well, okay, this is Evan.

>> We're having some issues.

>> Stop.

>> This is Kyle.

This is sounds like some connection trouble.

Should I try dialing back in or wait it out?

Evan.

>> No, just wait it out.

Kyle.

>> Is.

Kyle.

This is Kyle.

Got it.

Evan I'll hang tight.

Let me know when you're back.

>> No.

I'm here.

>> Listen, Kyle.

Great to have you back.

Evan.

Ready to dive back in whenever you are.

>> Okay.

>> I've not laughed that much at a. podcast in a long time, and it makes me feel like my fears about the A.I.

future are unfounded.

>> Okay, well, so the show sort of shows.

It explains and tells the story of how A.I.

is both more sophisticated but also less sophisticated than we think, but also, it's just like a very interesting exploration into the the main question, of course, which is what is it that makes us human?

And can any meeting ever really be productive?

>> Oh boy.

>> Well, and I got to shout out his fantastic producer, Sophie Bridges.

They have a very small team.

They make this show with just a few people and Sophie kills it on the sound of that light elevator music going behind it just kills.

So great work, Sophie, on this show with Evan.

Yeah.

>> Quick, quick side note getting the right music.

Really key, right?

>> Very hard.

>> Very hard to do.

Really, really key.

one of my favorite podcasts has terrible intro music, so.

Oh no.

Yeah.

I'm like, why.

>> Name names?

>> Oh, it's Tim Miller show in the bulwark.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Just it's not.

It's like, come on, man.

But Tim Miller ends every one of his podcast episodes with a full song.

Which how do they get the rights to that, by the way?

I want that.

>> They probably don't.

>> Can you work on that for me?

I will okay.

because and it's always thematic to the conversation, it's always really smart.

So that's what I want.

>> I love it okay.

Can we do a speed round of of anyone else's recommendations?

Okay.

We can blast them out on social later.

>> All right.

Real curly on YouTube says, love this idea.

Oh, wait a second.

I can't tell if they're loving the show or if there's a podcast called love This idea.

Sorry about that.

and.

Okay I got the rewatchable.

Mark says the rewatchable is from the ringer.

There you go.

Okay.

What else?

Anybody else?

Let's go here.

>> Carl, what do you got?

>> All right.

proof from America's test kitchen.

They did a three episode series on the life of James Hemings, the brother of Sally Hemings, the cook for Jefferson.

Phenomenal reporting.

Great voices, great story.

>> More culinary.

>> Yeah, exactly.

Amazing three parter.

>> Great.

>> I'm going to shout out Elevating Enterprise, which I just so happened to host as well.

But what we do is we talk to small business local resources so that you can get to know them and how to use it for your own business.

>> I want to shout out Chris Lindstrom's podcast, food About Town and his podcast network as well.

Yes, he had a conflict.

We actually invited him to be on the show today, but he had a conflict.

But he has a great podcast and he has a he's part of a network of local podcasts to that we will link to on social.

>> Yeah.

The lunch order Network, that is Wendy Low says.

Wendy says the rest is history.

In-depth coverage of historical events and errors.

Okay.

Come on, Carl, you got to know what that.

>> One is.

>> Great one.

The rest is history is good.

Yeah.

Endorse.

Okay.

All right.

Veronica.

>> search Engine, which is a podcast hosted by PJ Vogt, who's the former host of Reply All.

It's a show where they explore questions about the internet, but really explore questions about culture.

It's how I learned a lot about how modern economics works, but it's also how I learned about, like, supply chains.

And I just like, keep up with what the kids are talking about on TikTok.

>> I'll shout out grow the Show with the host, Kevin, who is amazing.

Everything I know about how to produce a good podcast I learned from Grow the Show.

>> All right.

and I'm going to just address a couple things here.

Number one, I always want to listen to people who are smart interviewers and are heterodox thinkers.

Uncomfortable conversations with Josh Zepps is one of my favorite.

He's an Australian very smart guy and sort of unflinchingly tackles hard things.

I do listen to a lot of the the mainstream stuff.

Kara swisher stuff I think is always very good.

I missed Jane Coaston, one of my favorite people in media.

She had the argument on the New York Times Network.

She's not doing that anymore.

She's so smart.

Really?

Really good.

And you want you looking at me like you wanted to jump.

>> No, I'm just listening.

>> Okay.

So.

Yeah, it's it's it's good smart interviewers, people who are thoughtful.

And there's so much out there, but that we've just scratched the surface.

And I hope, listeners, you've gotten some good ideas here.

I hope you start your day with a WXXI News daily news podcast.

>> WXXI daily news podcast.

Find out wherever you find your podcasts.

>> Thank you, Veronica, for coming in here.

>> Thank you so much, Evan.

I'm so happy to talk about this and happy to come back whenever.

>> And I want to say Jazzy T and Carl Nellis you're obviously very, very good at what you do and very well versed in this world.

Thanks for sharing your expertise on the program today.

>> And thank you for having us find Jazz Castro's Apple podcast channel.

>> All right.

Where are they going to find you, Karl?

>> Pleasure to be here.

good.

Egg audio is our company site where you'll find our work and our contact.

>> Great.

Having everybody more Connections coming up in just a moment.

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