From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in a far off kingdom in crisis.

The King and the Queen have been hidden from public view for a while.

The citizenry doesn't know where they are.

Their 15 year old daughter is working with palace staff to keep the king and the queen out of sight because, as it turns out, the King and the Queen were hit by a curse and have turned into monsters.

Literal, actual monsters, grunting and shouting and unable to communicate.

Their daughter is horrified.

She is desperate to get them back to what she remembers a happy family.

This is the basis of a new animated film called spellbound.

Directed by Vicky Jensen, who has some huge hits under her belt including Shrek and Shark Tale.

But this story takes some unusual turns.

I will offer a pretty big spoiler alert here, but although the themes I think are pretty clear from the start of this film, this is a story about a family finding its way through the separation and possible divorce of parents.

The King and the Queen aren't really cursed.

They're trapped as monsters by their own out of control arguing and emotions, and their daughter is being forced to grow up too soon as she tries to play the role of therapist and caregiver for parents who can barely look at each other.

The film includes some massive vocal talents and household names like Nicole Kidman, Javier Bardem, John Lithgow, Nathan Lane.

That's just for starters.

It's got great music and songs.

It's got a Rochester connection.

Doctor Joann Pedro Carol is a clinical psychologist.

She's well known to families who have navigated divorce and child raising.

And doctor Carol consulted on the film to make sure that it struck the right notes in presenting themes that can be difficult and painful, especially for kids.

This is a bold choice for an animated film.

Writing for parents.com Laura Brown West Rosenthal calls it a perfect and necessarily challenging family watch.

She writes, quote, after watching the film with my daughter, we had an in-depth conversation where we identified some standout themes that families can discuss together.

Sometimes kids are forced to grow up before they feel ready to.

While kids don't always know the right things to say or make the perfect decisions.

Parents don't have all the answers either, and parents can act like monsters, and it's tough to communicate big emotions no matter your age.

End quote.

Common Sense Media gave the film a four star review, saying, quote, there are positive messages about what it means to be a family, including nontraditional family structures, end quote.

But some parent reviewers on the site were less generous.

A parent named Emmanuel wrote, quote, imagine a movie encouraging divorce.

And Joe wrote, quote, the movie makes it seem like divorce is great and everything is fine and good.

This could be so confusing for kids going through potential hurt and many big feelings.

There are also a number of LGBTQ plus characters throughout the movie, including a gay couple living together.

Depending on your family values.

This may be something that you don't appreciate.

End quote.

I have to confess, I'm surprised that any adult would watch this movie for more than ten minutes without realizing some of the big themes that are unfolding, including yes, divorce and separation.

I've been through that myself in my life.

It's not easy.

I don't see spellbound presenting divorce as easy or a perfect solution, but each viewer will form their own opinions and the film is fun, by the way.

It's colorful, it's adventurous.

It's really well done.

We're going to talk about it this hour with our guests in studio.

Doctor.

Joann.

Pedro.

Carol.

Doctor Pedro Carol is a clinical psychologist and author, speaker, and a consultant on spellbound.

What a fun role it is great.

Make sure you join.

Get right on that microphone.

Welcome back to the studio here.

Oh have fun.

I'm delighted to be back and buoyed.

Did you really get that movie?

Well, we got a lot to talk about here.

Vicky Jensen is the director of spellbound.

On the line with us.

Hello, Vicki.

Hello.

It's wonderful to meet you.

Oh, it's great to have you on and honored to have you on the program.

Congratulations on the film.

You know, I mean, I don't know where it is today.

The film, I think, was technically released, just over two months ago.

And it had something, you know, like three, five, 8 million views.

The ticker was running real fast on it.

So I know it's been doing great.

How do you feel about it, Vicky?

How's it doing?

It's doing really well.

It was, It's in the top ten for a couple of weeks.

in the U.S. and, worldwide.

number one with with kids in something like 89 countries.

And, I think it's been doing really well on Netflix.

It can be sometimes tricky to find.

I often have trouble finding what I continue, how to continue watching something that I have been watching.

But, if you just, look for it, you know, it's there.

Well, and Vicky, you know, as I mentioned, I think this is a very bold choice in storytelling.

and unusual kind of development and not a in any way sort of a typical fairy tale.

although there's all the elements that people probably love in stories like this, the adventure of the Mystical Lands, the characters that are both funny and great singers.

You got some great pipes in in the movie.

but can you take me through the decision to put this kind of a theme parental separation and divorce at the center of a story like this?

Honestly, the first decision came from, the Sky dance.

I was approached to to, tell this story.

they presented to me, an idea at an early draft of the script that that that a family going through this really difficult time and coming out on the other end, not as, a traditional family, but actually having to, to be divided, having, you know, split.

In fact, that was the original name of the story was split.

I thought it was really brave because I, I have been through a divorce as well, although I don't have children.

My husband, has three daughters from that, from a previous, marriage.

And I completely related to it and thought about it and realized, yes, there is nothing out there.

There is no animated family movie that tries to tackle this in an honest way.

So I was on board with it right from start and, you know, telling the story that you finally see on screen.

You know, took a long time ago development, how to tell the story, where to pick it up, whether we pick it up after they've already split and she's maybe going back and forth between two kingdoms or before they split, and during that really difficult time on a kid, when life is rough at home.

And ultimately we decided to start the story earlier there.

Well, and we're going to talk to in a moment how Doctor Pedro Carroll got involved.

I can't wait to hear about this, because it's not often that, you know, my Rochester Korean guests are consulting with Hollywood on films, and we're going to talk about that coming up here.

I want to acknowledge something or at least ask you, Vickie, about doing the work.

in a time when everything feels like it inevitably becomes part of a culture war or politicized, and this is not going to be an overtly political conversation this hour, but I understand why.

To some listeners ears, it is.

I was talking to Doctor Pedro Carroll before the program began about the fact that PBS NewsHour reported, after the November election, there were, there was a surge in a number of states led by, the coalition for Divorce Reform and Beverly Willett, who wants to see the repeal of no fault divorce laws.

And she wants to see that state by state is typically a state issue.

Although this PBS NewsHour reported in 2021, then Senator JD Vance lamented that divorce is, quote, too easily accessible.

He says, quote, we've run this experiment in real time, and what we have is a lot of very, very real family dysfunction that's making our kids unhappy.

And he says people should not be able to shift spouses like they change their underwear, end quote.

So there's a lot of thought that the new administration could, could pursue.

And I don't know how you do it federally, but who knows?

there's a lot of thought that there could be a renewed emphasis on how accessible divorce is as an option for couples in the future in this country.

And I want to ask you if your film has it, have you felt it pulled into the culture war?

Have you felt it pulled into a politicized stream?

I think there is some of that going on.

we certainly, felt it in some of social media.

you know, the kind of, messages I get, I've been probably like doctor Carol, very, very positive people reacting and relating to the movie.

Well, wishing they'd seen something like this when they were young and their parents were going through it.

but there has certainly been, a certain amount of, attack and negativity towards the movie, normalizing, divorce, that sort of thing.

I it's so funny to me that this is still an issue when, you know, in family films, we've normalized the killing or the death of a parent and a kid going forward without a father, like, you know how to train your dragon to, spoiler alert, you know?

But yeah, but, and Lion King, and and like, okay, but but, you know, both parents still being alive yet not together is worse to some, some groups.

So it's been very interesting.

You know, we did do a few screenings very early on when the movie was still in progress to gauge what how people's appetite was for story with this, that it's at its core and it's still it was, largely positive, but there will always be, those who just don't feel that this is ever an option for a family.

Well, we'll ask Doctor Pedro Carroll about that coming up, but let me rewind a little bit and say, how did you get involved on a film like this?

How did this happen?

Joanne.

my great, serendipitous fortune.

back in, I think it was 2019, one of the producers at that time read my book, Putting Children First.

saw a video clip of me on YouTube talking about resilience and helping families through changes in the best ways possible, and invited me to be a psychological consultant on this movie that they were developing called spellbound.

Well, that was the beginning of, what I will describe as one of the best experiences I've ever had professionally because I have such enormous respect for the fact that they've taken on a topic that's so important.

And just as you've described, you know, not uniformly, applauded.

And yet the way they've done it with such care, such sensitivity and authenticity to the our main character, Ellen's, deep feelings.

And it's also filled with messages of resilience and love and hope and how you can come through challenging times, really with, with remarkable positive outcomes.

So I was so fortunate to be asked to be a part of this from the outset.

By the way, we mentioned Kidman and Javier Bardem and Nathan Lane and John Lithgow.

Shout out to the amazing Rachel Zegler, who's, yes, really great.

Really.

I mean, if that's not a name, you know, you really you really should.

so you get this invitation.

But is it a case, Joanne, where they're saying literally like, here's a scene, we're going to email you a script or we're going to send you the whole film.

What do you think?

Or how do you see certain character?

I mean, how did that process work?

Yeah.

well, I went out to LA initially to Skydance and met the amazing director Vicky Jansen and the whole crew and did a presentation about, what children and youth and families go through with, with these changes.

And again, I'm so respectful of the fact that they were all very interested in the research.

What does research tell us about what are the risks that that are posed for children?

What are the things that that might make life harder for them?

But also what are those really important protective factors that we know from volumes of research that really help children come through family changes with the best possible outcomes.

And they really wanted to incorporate that into into this movie where there are moments where you are literally looking at a scene and saying, this is really close, but I this character is maybe I should say this instead of that, or I mean, are you massaging parts of it like that?

Well, I we have the opportunity to, I would screen portions and then we have the opportunity to meet together on zoom, and we'd talk through, my, my perceptions, sharing more about the research, what I know from 40 years of experience working with children and families, what they what they go through.

And again, I'm so respectful of how open they all were to to really incorporating a true story.

And it's not easy, you know, to tell such a meaningful, full story and have it be engaging and fun and humorous and set it to music and it's very challenging.

Can you pass your book across the table?

Because for our for our viewers on Sky news, this YouTube channel, I think I'll try to hold it up high enough here so we can see it.

The book that that Joanne wrote, when did you write this, by the way?

2010, 2010.

So it's 15 years old now.

I mean, this has become a biblical piece of literature for couples and families in many cases.

I've read it myself.

It's called putting children first Proven Parenting Strategies for helping Children Thrive through divorce.

And that's the reason that Doctor Pedro Carroll, who is a Rochester Korean, is a national figure.

So, you know, Joanne's been on the program a number of times over the years talking about various themes related to the themes in this book.

But that's why this this guest who, you're we're going to claim you as a righteous Darian.

But, I mean, this is a this book has gone far and wide, hasn't it?

It has.

Yeah, it's it's, been in many languages and I will say, you know, that I'm, I think this movie is very much about love, and it's why I'm, I'm so puzzled at times.

Do you want to contest a little bit of the idea?

I view it as a straw man to say that.

Well, Doctor Pedro Carroll obviously endorses, you know, divorce as the the solution.

do you want to talk a little bit more about some of the criticism that I read that you'll see occasionally in some of these forums about that?

I do, because here's the thing.

I believe in science.

I believe in good research.

And I also know from my own personal experience, you know, when I married my husband, I got four bonus children.

And like, I know the experience of how what we do, how we handle family changes, makes such a difference.

And we know from research that when children are in situations of a lot of conflict or it's, a relationship between parents that has just really gone, grown apart, everything we know is that when parents can handle the the separation, contain their conflict, keep their children out of the middle, and really maintain healthy parenting and healthy parent child relationships.

the research shows children are better off than living in a situation where there is ongoing conflict and a lack of love.

So I'm so troubled by, a movement that might begin to address, going backwards with no fault divorce.

Because one of the things we know about, fault based divorce is it can really foment more conflict between parents, pit parents against each other in a battle over the child.

It's not the outcome we want for children and families.

So I see this this movie is in many ways, it's about love and resilience and how you can come through, big changes with, you know, that, that message of, you know, not all families grow in one straight line, you know?

Yeah.

And I want to say again, we're going to get back to the film in a second.

I mean, it's funny.

I mean, it's really lovely in so many ways.

Yeah, it's really good.

I mean, you can't have like, Nathan Lane and John Lithgow and all these characters.

Not.

It's great.

but before we get back to the film, just to kind of put a fine point on what Doctor Pedro Carroll was talking about, this movement.

I'll credit our colleagues at PBS NewsHour for a little more of their reporting on what's happening in a number of states.

In January, Oklahoma Republican Senator Dusty Devers introduced legislation that would have removed married couples from filing, prevented filing married couples from filing for divorce on the grounds of incompatibility divas back to the bill.

After writing a piece declaring that no fault divorce is an abolition of marital obligation, his words, South Carolina to Republican lawmakers in 2023 filed a bill that would have required both spouses to file for a no fault divorce application rather than just one spouse.

And in South Dakota, a Republican lawmaker has attempted to remove irreconcilable differences as grounds for divorce in that state.

So, again, Doctor Peter Carroll, I think those lawmakers would say, hey, there's times where there's violence.

There's really, really deep structural reasons, but no fault, just pulls family apart and hurts kids.

That's what they're saying in these states that are part of this movement.

What do you say to them?

Well, I think we know that, we do have data, and we know that before no fault that there was, more ongoing, protracted litigation where children were often caught in the middle, asked to choose, you know, which parent in one way or another, which parent they wanted to live with.

And we know that conflict, ongoing conflict between parents is like a toxic for children's development, a toxin.

So when we can help parents begin to make parenting decisions together respectfully and, and be able to reduce conflict and preserve quality parenting and relationships with both parents, those are the most powerful predictors of children's healthy adjustment and resilience over time.

This film, to me, presents, a family that has, has parents who have been struggling.

And the solution, contrary to some of the reviews I read, is not a quick one.

I understand at the end of the film, to some viewers it might feel quick, but anybody who has been through a long sort of structural strife, especially when kids are involved, understands that at least I think would understand that this is not a story of quick pull the fastest lever you can separate the marriage.

It was a we got to a point where we feel cursed.

I mean, they literally became monsters, and had to work their way to just being able to communicate with one another.

At one point, I was like, are we sure Javier Bardem and Nicole Kidman are voice actors in this film?

I like, when are we going to get their voice and know that we get them.

We start to get them in dribs and drabs, and then of course, we get a lot more of them.

but they're they're monsters at the start.

They're just grunting at each other.

I didn't viewed as a quick decision.

I've never known you to endorse the idea of a quick, easy solution to any any problem, let alone divorce.

Joanne.

Oh, certainly not.

In fact, one of the things, in my therapy practice, I always encourage parents to address, if they have issues early on in their relationship and to see if there are ways that they can work things out.

And ultimately, you know, when when parents know that they've really taken the time to give that decision, the thought and care that it deserves, ultimately, everyone, comes through those changes better.

And, and with that sense of, okay, we may be making the decision to live apart, but the kind of love we have for our child or children is that forever kind of love.

You're always, always parents, no matter what.

Did you ask for a singing role in this movie, Joe?

What did you tell Vicky?

Come on, I think I can do this.

No, Vicky, I would have loved that because you didn't want to elbow your way.

I love the music.

I love everything about this.

There's.

It's a great soundtrack.

Vicky Jenson, director of spellbound, is on the line with us.

how how does a film like this come together with the music part of it?

Who's involved there?

well, it's early on as well.

We did try to bring music in really early to help sculpt the story, because along with working with with doctor Carol on sculpting the the the journey, the emotional journey of of the family, we wanted the story told with music incorporating songs to help the story move forward.

we needed the expertise of Alan Menken and lyricist, you know, Glenn Slater, and our music producer, Chris Montan.

And all three have a long history together.

and it was really a wonderful experience.

We, we did a music retreat early on to, you know, pitch through our story and talk about possible song moments.

the tone of the music, how it could reflect, Liam's feelings, at the time, because there's an old saying on Broadway, you know, when you're when you're when your feelings are too big to speak, you sing.

So it's very, very big feelings in, in the story.

And initially, she doesn't understand what's going on as a lot of kids don't.

And and when it hits her at the end, she, she gets this, amazing moment to, to really vent how hurt and how betrayed she feels.

It's almost like the villain song.

because really, we don't have a, physical or, embodied, and villain because that was sort of outside of the story.

And it, it's really about the dynamics within the family and that the struggle with those big, strong, angry feelings is, you know, we didn't want to vilify the anger or the sense of justified, you know, anger.

But, but when one gets into it, as the parents did it, they, they get caught up with their own animosity to each other that they forget their child.

That's where the problem is.

And warning her to that.

Yes.

You have every reason to to to express your anger and feeling left behind, but getting lost in it, would be the danger to her.

And so that was for us where the, the, the problem was and the villainy would have been.

yeah.

And I just want to say to listeners who, you know, I mean, everyone's going to have a slightly different take on a piece of art, which is what this is.

And for listeners who might decide to watch spellbound, and maybe you do feel critical of some of the theme, that that's okay.

You can have those those feel I don't want to shut down opinions.

I will say, though, I share Joanne's kind of, confusion about some of the, the reviews, that were hinting at that.

Well, this was quick.

It was easy.

I see the journey.

This adventurous film, this adventurous film has a lot of danger.

There's quicksand and there's things that are real risk for, for the parents, the king and the queen, for alien.

And, they have to survive all of that just to get to it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's all symbolic.

That's the thing about mythology and fairy tales, and they're not always evident.

the first time you hear a story and the first time you watch it.

But.

But they're not just, you know, arbitrary adventures to go through.

Absolutely.

I mean, like anybody who has been through a divorce and feels like, you know, we're doing pretty well, can probably tell you that there were pitfalls, that there were real risks, that there were ways things could have gone off track, maybe did for a while.

And that's what that's what you're seeing here.

You're not seeing, like, this easy candy land road.

Like it's literally the dark forest that's named twice or whatever.

Nathan Lane's The Oracles line.

I love that line, for so dark that it's been named twice.

It's, I just I thought it was, clear.

I thought the storytelling was very clear in that way.

and it was combined with a lot of big laughs, too.

And great characters.

did you have any voice actors, who hesitated based on any of the themes?

Vicki I mean, you want to get you want to get Nathan Lane and John Lithgow and and Javier Bardem, any.

But did anybody say, I don't know, based on the theme here, you know, absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

Everybody was in they they understood the story.

They understood, what it was, trying to do and, and why it was, different and important and emotional.

So, yeah, everybody was in from the beginning.

They knew it would be tricky.

You know, we all did that.

That's not an easy thing to do.

and, you know, these kind of things, they don't maybe, land for everybody, you know, just as these important issues you were talking about earlier, there's so many strong, strong opinions about it.

So we were just trying to deal with it from one family's perspective and in a way that would feel universal, because to me is this kind of alienation between child and and parents, you know, is if they're, you know, even if the subject matter wasn't about the family splitting up.

But so I felt like these, these, themes of, of pulling apart and coming back together in a new way apply to a lot of situations and families.

I agree 100% on that.

I think of this movie as, really embedding universal emotions for anyone who is human, right?

Because the truth is, we've all had times if you're with someone you love you, you're with someone you love, and wittingly or unwittingly, you do something hurtful.

Yeah, there are a whole set of emotions that go along with that.

There's a whole of many different parts of ourselves that get stirred up when we're about to experience a loss, or we want to go back to an earlier time when things, things seemed, easier.

And, you know, I, I one of the things I respect so much about this movie is it shows, the parents, even though they've been monsters, when they come out, when they're able to see and reflect done on their behavior, they do repair work, right?

Which we all need to do, whether it's in a, in our relationship or as a couple or a family or a parent child.

When we've hurt someone, how important it is to do that.

What I refer to as the art of a sincere apology and look for ways to repair that, that disconnect or that hurt in the relationship.

And that's what the parents do here when when Ellen is angry, she's really grieving that that things aren't going the way she's hoping.

And the parents not only use their words to, to to do that repair work, to say how sorry they were.

They forgot to put her first.

But they also back it up with their behaviors.

You know, she had a pretty miserable birthday that first round when her parents were were monsters.

But then we see, oh, this is a true spoiler alert.

Sorry, we have a spoiler alert in this hour as best we can.

We're not telling you don't see it.

We're telling you it's still very much worth seeing.

But go ahead.

But I love the ending because the parents are doing that work to show their love for her in their behaviors.

You know, love is a verb.

I think love is an action verb.

And the parents have come together and and she's experiencing the love of both of them, supporting her as she's turning 16.

And that feeling of, okay, maybe this wasn't the way I envisioned things working out, but the truth is that we all go through hard things in life, and things don't always go the way we might hope or envision.

And it's true for every single family.

I don't think this movie is just about families who experience a separation, and I want to ask one other question about how we view these themes when kids are the viewers.

So I want to wrap in and, an email from Tim, who says, for kids whose parents are still together, might this film convince kids to root for divorce if their parents end up in an argument?

I mean, I don't think it's I I'll let Joanne and Vicky talk to that dark Pedro.

Carol, you want to start with that?

Sure.

One of the things I'm finding is this, this film really opens the door for parents, for all of us as parents, with our with children to communicate about big feelings, times when you're angry, how do you handle conflict?

And it's an, I'm hearing from so many parents, even in different countries, how helpful it is to have the movie as a catalyst for these conversations.

It's an opportunity.

If a child says, well, if if the two of you are arguing, does that mean you're going to get a divorce?

It's a great opportunity to have a, a conversation about healthy ways of handling conflict that, no, doesn't mean that we're not going to not going to stay married.

It means that right now we're having a some big feelings, some pretty big disagreements about things.

But you know what?

We're going to we're going to problems solve this.

We'll figure it out.

And it's it's an example of how to model dealing with conflict in healthy ways.

Yeah.

Tim wants to know, Vicky, if this film could have kids rooting for divorce, I don't see how they they would.

Because, you know, they they it's it's a difficult journey.

It's a horrible, truth that lands on Ellie.

And when the parents, you know, first reveal to her what what they remember, you know, in the specifics of the story after, remembering their past.

You know, we use the spell just as an allegory for it all.

She is not happy.

This is not easy.

this whole journey hasn't been easy.

The whole time that she was living with two parents, acting like monsters.

none of this was easy.

And all she wished for it was for it to be exactly the way it was before, which isn't possible.

And so the point of the story is that there is a way forward.

If each of the parents treat their child, remember who she is to them.

You know, with love and understanding and inclusion, they had completely left her out of the decision, out of their, their, their problems.

These are probably people who close the door as they, you know, screamed and yelled.

And these are people who leave us alone, will figure it out, you know, and they even say that at the end, the last thing that they need to do before they become human again is to be honest with her, include her and and and make her understand that they they will always love her no matter what happens between the two of them.

So I don't see how anyone would root for this as a solution.

It's not an easy journey at all.

Well, I I'm thinking of the way that we sometimes think we have to really be careful with messaging for kids, and we don't hold that same standard, for shows that are expressly for adults.

And I mentioned recently that I'm rewatching Ted Lasso now, love it.

And it's, it's such it's such a great show.

And, and yet Ted Lasso is a show that deals with a very painful divorce between two people who clearly love each other.

and Ted's struggling to accept it, but also gracefully give his ex space and parent a young child.

And did you see all the headlines about Ted Lasso normalizes divorce, Ted Lasso?

So here, here are the headlines.

I see Ted Lasso shows therapy is cool.

What Ted Lasso can teach us about relationships, marriage, and divorce.

The Ted Lasso Relationship Guide divorce section.

These are all headlines about the Ted Lasso divorce story.

They're not saying, how come this is, why is this a theme?

This is bad.

This is a bad theme.

They're saying if you show it in a loving way, that's realistic, but but still sort of maybe optimistic that that can have a positive effect.

Meanwhile, you get a feature film for families and kids and you go, whoa, well, we're talking about divorce here.

I just feels a little like a double standard.

Vicky.

And the idea of, you know, kids maybe struggling to handle certain themes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess I'm just baffled, honestly, you know, kids can handle it with, with, you know, with the aid of their parents.

They need to be talking, you know, need to be talking to them.

That's you're.

That's right.

you know, I think so much about resilience and what is what does that really mean?

And, you know, it's a term that gets bandied about sometimes and people might say, well, they're kids, they're resilient.

Well, you know, resilience happens as a result of that.

Parents taking responsibility for giving children some information, communicating about what's happening, being able to to handle conflict and in healthy ways.

And again, I go back to Vicky.

I know that, you know, there were a lot of challenges in, in making this movie, not for nothing but, you know, working your way through Covid and a writers strike and, and times when it was really hard to figure out how to, how to preserve this as a very meaningful story with very real emotions, not sugarcoating it and sanitizing it and having it be real, authentic, meaningful, fun, engaging, and, you know, ideally, entertaining.

What a tall order and how well you really led the whole team through that whole process.

Well, animation, we always say, is a team sport that takes a lot of people, a lot of, you know, if you think, raising a child takes a village, try making an animated movie.

It's a lot of voices involved.

we have the benefit of a lot of, early screening done, you know, well, before the movie's even animated.

Just.

We cut our storyboards together with music that, you know, we find if we haven't got it already, trying to, you know, see, does it feel like a movie?

Is that.

Are these ideas coming across?

Where is it too long?

Is this funny enough?

You know, and ultimately, it is a real balance between, you know, being really true to the difficult journey and yet creating a piece of entertainment.

So it's not easy.

If it was easy, everyone would be doing after we take this very late, only break of the hour, I've got some more feedback for our guests as we talk about this film spellbound, which is streaming now, and we're talking to Vicky Jenson, the director of spellbound.

Doctor Joanne Pedro Carol is a clinical psychologist and author, speaker and was a consultant on the movie.

And we're coming right back to your feedback on the other side.

Coming up in our second hour, a new PBS documentary explores 150 years of one of the nation's most celebrated centers for art and culture.

And it's a place that's just two 2.5 hours from Rochester.

We're talking about the Chautauqua Institution, known for its speakers.

It brings in its commitment to diversity of thought the artists, the performances, the music, the culture, and more.

150 Years of Chautauqua.

Next, our.

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Thank you.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Charlie says Evan, I have lived all of this.

My ex-wife and I are highly educated and we threw everything we had toward our two kids.

Ballet, skiing, music lessons, art lessons, karate trips, etc.

however, we didn't take care of our own relationship and it got bad.

The last 3 or 4 years.

Our youngest went to college and that was the end.

We used mediation and therapy.

Everyone received help.

Everyone has moved on.

My kids are both happily married.

I remarried, my ex is in a solid relationship.

Was it easy?

Heck no.

But it was the right thing to do.

That's from Charlie.

So I just did a little snapshot of Charlie's life there.

But you hear a lot of stories like that, Joanne.

Oh, first of all, Charlie, hats off to you.

Huge.

I respect so much all of the work and effort and and honestly dedication that it sounds like you and your your children's mom put in to how you've handled the changes in your family, but also the quality of life that you've created for yourselves and your children moving forward.

I hope you feel enormous, an enormous sense of pride and accomplishment, because I know it's not easy.

It's.

And it does take dedication and really, what you've taught your children is it's it's a forever kind of love.

Thank you, Charlie, for that email.

Alex wants to know if this film is going to be at the little theater.

I don't I think it's just streaming.

Well, let me ask Mickey.

I mean, it's a totally different world from when your career started, I'm sure.

I mean, everything is streaming now.

So you want to tell people, first of all, where to see spellbound.

And then I want to talk to you a little bit about how you see, you know, this demand to stream everything.

But first of all, where is the the the movie watchable.

You can watch Spellbound on Netflix.

And how do you feel about that?

How do you feel about, you know, sometimes in theaters, sometimes straight to streaming?

I want to be able to watch everything at home.

A lot's changed, especially since the pandemic.

How are you feeling about that?

Yeah, it really has.

You know, when I started the movie that was just this wasn't a thing of just, well, there was some straight to streaming movies, but certainly not in feature animation.

the pandemic changed everything, as we all know.

and, you know, it just didn't seem like anyone would be returning to theaters.

And that, again, is also evolving.

There were a lot of, films that did incredibly well, in theaters and certainly animation.

and, you know, the we all hope for a return to that because that's, you know, that's for me.

That's where my heart lies.

There's nothing like watching a movie and a shared experience with an audience in a huge, darkened room and hearing the laughter and the sniffles around you, the sniffles not being Covid, but seeing a movie.

And there really isn't anything like that, especially for a filmmaker, you know?

So, streaming can be such a solitary experience and sometimes I feel that's reflected in reviews that you don't understand quite how it's landing around you.

You know, there's an old story I don't hear, but, there's an old, joke in Hollywood that that a writer has sent a script in and and hasn't heard anything back from the studio and called, you know, Monday morning and reaches a young executive who says, well, nobody's in yet, so I don't know what I think it.

Is.

And that could happen when you're watching, something, you know, all by yourself on your laptop.

But but, I do hope for, ultimately, you know, for people to have the choice to see a movie in a theater and then, like it was before you would see it in streaming afterwards.

you know, I'm not ungrateful.

We we reached, you know, many, many eyeballs on, on on Netflix.

and people have such wonderful home theaters.

They can see all of the detail, on the big, you know, the big screens.

But, but, yeah, I'm really hoping that that in the future, we can we can present these movies, you know, in a theater.

Yeah.

And and Vicky, maybe the the parallel concern that at least I who, who's not working in the industry that I have for the industry, the movie industry.

It's it's the idea that people don't want to leave their house for anything.

And maybe streaming is okay.

Maybe we still reach a lot of audiences.

But the experience is different.

But then there's a separate question of, the effects of technology.

I was listening to a conversation with an Australian futurist who was brilliant the other day, and she was saying, you know, it won't be long before, studios really start having more of an option to say, well, yeah, we've got the big names, but the rest of the cast we can do I, we can do AI with so much more.

We don't need to pay people.

you know, maybe what we what we preserve are the big name stars only, and everybody else is out of work.

I mean, do you hear that coming?

Does that feel like that's coming?

Is that feel like that's even desirable?

I, I actually have not heard that that's coming.

Okay.

Maybe things that might be more true in the TV world where budgets can be very tight, but, you know, people are tightening their belt everywhere or yeah, I haven't seen that.

That's not the biggest expenditure of of money.

on, on, you know, secondary actors.

animation is an expensive form of filmmaking.

It takes a lot of people and then this amount of specialized talent.

So, if anything, you know, it would be it could be entering that world to help, you know, make the pipeline move more efficiently or or find a way to, to make difficult shots.

more, you know, easier to accomplish.

but as far as acting.

No, that's that's I don't I it's not really part of a conversation I've ever heard.

Well, and then the other part with animation that I, I'm curious to get your take on.

I was just talking to my son this morning about we talking about AI, and, you know, I'm a curmudgeon about AI, and I basically I mean, he's finishing a project and I was like, listen, you don't have ChatGPT and neither do I, but eventually it's going to be everywhere.

And if you ever use AI to finish a paper or what?

Like, I like it, we're going to have a real problem.

I just know it's an AI.

You have to understand how sensitive this tool is and how easy it is to have it right.

A poem for you.

Have it write a story for you.

There is an AI.

I played for him, the Randy Travis quote unquote song.

Randy Travis unfortunately lost his ability to sing more than a decade ago, and that's a tragic thing.

But his producers uploaded 30 years of his music into an AI program, and it it wrote and created and used his.

You listen to a song, it's out there and it sounds like Randy Travis and you know, it's not.

And his family loves it.

That's a beautiful thing for them.

But I don't want to normalize the idea that we don't actually need humans behind the creation anymore.

And I don't know if we'll get to the point with an animated film where I'll say, hey, I have this idea for this adventure in a kingdom.

And, I can you write me a script or can you show me what it would look like?

And then I go, oh, that's good enough, let's put it out there.

I don't want that to happen.

I want us to hold the line and have human beings doing the work.

What do you think?

I totally agree.

also, you know, from my understanding of how it works, it's it's grabbing from material that's already out there.

So you're getting a retread?

In my opinion, you're not getting something.

Yes.

And groundbreaking and eye opening and based on, on, someone's unique experience.

And and that's what I think we will ultimately miss.

You know, we will be feeling little pieces of it are also familiar from things that already exist.

I was like, you're in the car with my son and me this morning because we were talking about like, well, what could stop this?

And he's kind of a geek about law classes.

He, he loves, like thinking about he's doing these debate and law classes and, and we talked about how lawyers will have a lot to say about this because technically, a new, a quote unquote new AI creation is amalgamated from a probably untraceable sources of existing material.

And how did the artists know that they're not cribbing off your work already?

So, you know, like, what happened?

Music.

You know, a couple decades back when people were sampling.

Yeah, it was easier to recognize the pieces.

And then it led to a lot of, you know, legal discussion issues, you know, cases.

and here.

Yeah, you're right.

It's hard to recognize where it's coming from, but it's coming from somewhere that's already that's it was already created.

Well, the nice thing about spellbound is it is an entirely human creation.

I mean, it's an animated film created by these, not only Vicky Jensen, but this, this team of people.

As she said, it's a whole village.

along with some big names from Hollywood who put their voices into this film.

It is very funny.

It is, delight, visually delightful.

And it's so cool that Doctor Joanne Pedro Carol of Rochester has consulted on this film.

So as we get ready to wrap here, what do you want to leave with listeners as they think about, do I want do I want to spend an hour and 50 minutes on this film?

Like, should I have my kids watch this?

Will it spark conversations?

Am I ready for those?

What would you tell listeners?

I would say always know that no matter what you're going through, every family has to go through hard times.

Every single one of us goes through challenging times.

And isn't it a wonderful opportunity to see a movie that can show us?

Oh yeah, and we have really big feelings sometimes when we're going through this hard stuff.

And what a great chance for parents to talk with their kids to validate the big feelings that they have about so many things.

And, you know, we know from neuroscience, putting our feelings into words, it's often referred to as name it to tame it.

But being able to talk things through, we know actually changes.

The activity in the brain, reduces anxiety release results in more understanding, empathy, and a deeper connection between parents and kids.

So wow, what a good thing to have is as an opportunity.

And Vicky, what do you want to leave with listeners?

About 30 seconds as they think about I might cue up spellbound for tonight.

I of course, I would recommend that folks watch it.

You know, I, I think it's, not just the message and the theme.

I think it's a really fun watch.

If you're a fan of of the music of Alan Menken.

you know, I think that you'll really enjoy it.

There's there's a great amount of fun in it, and, again, to, to to, you know, agree with with Doctor Carroll, you know, this is a safe place to experience big feelings.

I remember as a kid watching Bambi and, you know, feeling that huge sense of loss.

Then where else?

But just the safety of where each of that we can experience.

Well, Vicky Jensen, as the director of spellbound, you are generous with your time.

Vicky Jensen is not just the director of spellbound.

I mean, her resume is Shrek.

It's Shark Tale, and, I mean, it's a long resume.

And it's great to have you here on, Western New York public media.

It's awesome talking to you.

Congratulations on this project.

And thank you for making the time.

Vicky.

Thank you so much, doctor.

Joanne.

Pedro.

Carol, congratulations on your consultation on this film to triumph.

It's great talking to you.

Thank you for being here.

Always a pleasure to be here.

You know, I'm a big fan.

I, we're all fans of Doctor Pedro.

Carol, we've got my.

We got to stop the admiration, mutual admiration society.

More connections coming up.

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