>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

>> Our connection this hour was made earlier this month when the United States Department of Education issued a proposal about federal graduate student loan limits.

It's a wonky subject, perhaps, and the department had to define what a professional degree program is and what is not.

And its list had a curious omission.

Nursing was left out.

The American Nurses Association immediately issued a statement bashing the federal government for treating nursing as a lesser profession in their eyes.

That statement read in part the following quote.

The Department of Education asserts that advanced practice registered nurses aprn's are not part of a distinct profession and that graduate nursing degrees do not qualify as entry into a profession.

Ana rejects this denigration of the nursing profession entirely.

Nursing is a licensed profession, and aprn's are educated, trained, certified, and regulated to deliver essential care.

End quote.

Now taken in isolation, this controversy might not be big news outside the nursing pipeline, but in reality, there are all kinds of forces affecting the nursing profession right now, and that could affect anyone who needs care eventually.

Right now, there is a significant ongoing nursing shortage in the United States, and the projections are harrowing.

A nursing deficit could range from 75,000 to nearly 300,000, depending on the numbers you see.

Either way, it's big.

And in some states the problem is dire.

On top of that, my colleague Racquel Stephen recently reported on the new hire visa fees for international nurses, making it harder for the United States to recruit talent from abroad.

Our guests have a lot to say about the state of nursing, where the profession goes next, and the importance of trying to recruit future nurses.

Let me go around the table and welcome our guests.

Now, welcome back to Lisa Kitko, who is Dean and professor of nursing and geriatric medicine at the University of Rochester School of Nursing.

Nice to see you again.

>> Nice to see you.

Thank you, Evan.

>> And welcome as well to Kate Valcin, who is chief nursing executive at URMC, assistant dean of clinical practice and assistant professor of clinical nursing at the University of Rochester School of Nursing.

Thank you for being back with us here.

>> Thanks, Evan.

Nice to be here.

>> Across the table.

Hello to Sarah Corsette.

Who is the leader on the unit, professional Governance Council and officer for the Professional Nursing council at the University of Rochester Medical Center, and a staff nurse as well.

Welcome.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

And Stephanie Bakker is going to tell her story as a student in the psychiatric mental Health Nurse Practitioner program at URMC.

Thank you for being here as well.

Thank you.

So I just let me start with Lisa.

We've talked over the years about the challenge and the need to recruit more and more and more, and we will talk about that this hour.

But this is a weird time for me to see the the Department of Education coming out with this guidance.

This is not my field.

I don't cover it regularly.

So maybe I'm missing something, but it did look like a slap in the face to nursing.

Was this a slap in the face to nursing?

>> Evan, thanks for that question.

And and yes, you know, and but but I do want to highlight nursing is a profession.

Right.

And those that do it every day and get up to do it every day and decide to pursue it as a career, it is a laudable profession.

The most trusted out there.

So government labels, yes, are a slap in the face, but I do want to highlight what this means.

So not only not being a profession, put us in a different spot in terms of how much loans, how many, the amount of loans that students are able to obtain to go to graduate nursing education.

That's significant because it's not just tuition.

Most of our students, it's going to be highlighted nicely by Stephanie.

Our balancing work life, school, when they have to go to school full time because we require clinical hours and full time study.

They need these loans to be able to pay the rent, pay for child care.

So that's significant.

You know, we're we're very concerned, especially in those programs that are full time, that students who were thinking about advanced degrees, it's going to be unobtainable for them, or they're going to have to go to a private loan market where it becomes perhaps not obtainable or very expensive.

>> And it's not like this is happening at a time when it's salad days for the nursing profession.

Everything I'm reading indicates there's a severe national shortage.

Is that still correct?

>> That is true, that is true.

And not only in bedside nurses.

We're seeing shortages across the board.

You know, significantly, you know, nurse practitioners especially.

You'll hear more about psych mental health nurse practitioners.

We have a huge shortage in our mental health workforce.

And many of these nurse practitioners are going to underserved or rural areas.

So it will have significant impacts on patient outcomes.

>> What is what is the best case for why the Department of Education made this distinction, asserting that nursing in this way is not an actual profession.

What happened there?

>> It actually is kind of a long standing issue that even gets into how we classify what is a Stem field.

So there is some history to this of how they, the Department of Education codes certain educational things.

And we did not rise to the, you know, where they made the cutoff was with school, with medicine, dentistry, law.

and everything else fell below that.

So I'm here advocating for nursing, but it's even beyond that.

It's physical therapy.

It's occupational therapy, it's social work.

It's mental health counselors.

It's the list goes on and on and on.

>> If it's not a profession.

I mean, what is it an avocation?

Is it a hobby?

I don't fully understand the distinction.

>> I don't either, in full disclosure.

But I will say to you, as a dean and a long, long term nurse, it's the most trusted profession out there in the United States.

>> And certainly, Lisa, to your point, if this could affect loans, if this could affect who's eligible for loans, you know, this this could hurt people.

This could maybe limit a pipeline.

But I do wonder, is there a groundswell to get this amended changed?

Is there a way to get that changed?

>> Yes, yes.

So this legislation is open for comment for public comment.

So many of you that are involved as nurses, hopefully you're getting something from your professional organization.

Log on to our website at the School of Nursing.

There are many templates how everyone can use their voice to advocate to have this changed.

The comment period is open until March 2nd, so I am certainly advocating for everyone.

professional organizations have been very active to get the word out there how nurses, how other professions are able to comment during this period.

And we appreciate these efforts to get as much word out there as we can.

So thank you.

>> I'm just a journalist, not an advocate.

But I will say, having had a son born last July and having spent a lot longer to have that process finished than anybody expected, it was one of the hardest weeks.

We kept saying, I can't believe how good this staff is.

I can't believe how good everybody involved has been, not just in OB, not just I mean everybody in the chain.

And I'm going like, they do this all the time and they make everyone feel like you're the first person they've seen in years.

I mean, like, you're the only person I was.

I was blown away.

And until you need it, you don't maybe step back and recognize the value of it or how vital it is.

So that's just the perspective of a consumer.

I'd tell you.

I'd tell you if I had a bad experience, but it was really, really beautiful.

So so before I turn to your colleagues, let me just ask one more question on the state of local nursing.

We hear about this national shortage, and we hear about certain states like California, new Jersey really hurting what's going on regionally here.

What is the state of things here?

>> Yes, yes.

We're we're not immune to that.

Right.

And you know, we have a perfect storm coming ahead of us where we see a lot of the nursing workforce aging.

We see our population aging and requiring more care.

So we're going to need more and more nurses.

So we are not immune.

So that's why, you know, as soon as we have these opportunities, we're all, you know, knocking on your door to talk about, you know, what we're doing to recruit people to the nursing workforce.

And truly what a great profession that it is in terms of the careers and the benefits of those careers.

So I do I have time to talk about the.

So so we we know this as a community.

We need to attract more nurses.

So we have been working really hard with our community partners and our health system, and we are in our second year.

We have a program called the You Are Scholars nursing program, which some around the table will be able to talk about as well, where if you have a bachelor's degree in another field and you want a career change or decide you want to be a nurse, you are able to go tuition free.

Again, I'll say that tuition free for a three with a three year work commitment to one to URMC one of the affiliates, either strong Highland F.F.

Thompson and not only do you go tuition free, but we all work around this table to make sure that you're mentored and really ready to make that transition to practice.

So it is a great program.

It is a great pipeline.

It is essential to our community to maintain that nursing workforce that we need, so that you have the experiences that you had.

>> Yeah.

Well, your colleague Kate Valcin nodding right alongside you, the chief nursing executive at URMC, is there a number, Kate, in your mind where you say, boy, if we had X number, we'd be more whole or we'd be where we want to be.

>> Yeah, that's a really interesting question.

New York State, the shortage is about 40,000 nurses by 2030.

And what we're starting to see is that where we've gotten creative and said, you know what, maybe there's work for Lpns can do this kind of work, and then RN's can do this work, and nurse practitioners can do this other work.

We see where the shortage is change, but that number is staying the same.

So if we start having more work for Lpns, the RN number gap you know, closes, but then the LPN gap grows so that that's a really solid number and that's the estimated gap for our state by 2030.

>> That's for.

>> The state.

For the state around the corner in our community.

You know, what we're seeing is that there's a lot of variation depending on the specialty of nursing.

So there are kinds of nurses that maybe people have seen more in the media or they've experienced themselves.

And so we tend to, you know, not have a lot of shortages in OB nursing.

But when you think about in the emergency room or on the general care floors, those shortages there tend to be a little bit higher.

So I would love to find 500 nurses for our health system.

You know, that could start in the next couple of years.

when we think about regionally, there is a lot of growth of ambulatory care and just shifting of where the care happens.

And so it really is not just a number, it's where do we need the nurses to be working and what kind of work does our community need?

>> I'm not going to belabor the whole Department of Ed thing.

We're not going to spend the whole hour on that.

But I do want to get your take on it.

What did you think when you saw that?

>> I it does feel like a real challenge to the work that I've really dedicated my whole career to.

nursing is a profession.

and so to have a piece of our profession called out and say, if you're a nurse educator, if you're a nurse leader, if you're an advanced practice nurse, you don't merit the same level of support to grow in that way.

I think that that's really challenging for us and definitely an opportunity to raise our voices.

I think personally, we can't have more nurses if we don't have more people to teach people how to be nurses.

And so there's extra vulnerability, not just for patient care, but for our, our profession, because nurse educators are on that list of people that can't get that support.

And so we have this gap of nursing.

And then we just took away the opportunity for people to get the support they needed to help us close that gap.

>> Again.

I mean, if there's a better argument for what the Department of Ed did, I mean, I'd be open to it.

I don't know it, but I don't think the American public agrees with that assessment, do you?

>> I don't think that they agree.

I mean, I think the the groundswell of support on social media and in other places, it's really clear that people are unhappy about this and people don't understand.

And really has affirmed, you know, the most trusted profession listed list just came out again.

And there was nursing, you know, at the top.

So I think many people have had experiences like, you know, like the one that you had and they don't understand that.

And so, you know, we talked about Lisa, talked about the professional organizations helping nurses advocate, but the public can go and leave their comments and just affirm that they see nursing as a profession, too.

>> Before the program began, we were talking a little bit with Kate just about how you see not just nursing now, but as we look at the future and there's a lot of reporting this week about, you know, what some of Microsoft A.I.

's department is saying about the future of white collar jobs and what's going on.

There's a lot of prognostication.

And, you know, no one knows exactly what's coming.

But what we could see is job disruption.

Like, we've never really seen in modern times in this country.

How does nursing withstand whatever is coming in that way?

>> So what we like to say at the medical center is that nurses that lean into A.I.

and learn how to use it wisely will replace the nurses who won't use it at all.

And so we're really looking for what are the opportunities to innovate, what are the ways that A.I.

can make our jobs more efficient?

excuse me if the one of the key things that nurses do is coordinate care, how can we lean into some of the technology that's available to us to help us with prioritization?

Or, chick, you know, click the boxes that need to be clicked.

Since we went to a electronic medical record about 15 years ago, we've heard a lot from all health care providers that they feel like they spend more time typing and clicking than taking care of patients.

And you might, you know, have experienced that in a doctor's appointment or something like that.

And so there is really cool things that are happening to actually use A.I.

to make make the experience more human.

So ambient listening so a nurse can go in and talk to the patient and do the patient teaching, and then the listening writes the note so the nurse doesn't have to sit there and type up what they just said.

It's just there that they can edit and affirm.

It can never just be A.I.

by itself, but it can be amazing.

>> But it's one thing to say, nurses who are well trained with A.I.

will replace nurses who aren't.

It's another to say the human beings are going to be replaced entirely in this process, or.

>> 100%.

>> Or some human beings.

Do you think some number of nurses will be replaced with A.I.?

Do you think it will just simply be?

This is actually a place where A.I.

will be a tool to make the job more efficient, the quality better.

But we're not going to see humans replaced.

>> I don't think that we're going to see humans replaced.

What I wonder about is when we say we have this gap of 40,000, where we say our plan right now is to fill that with 40,000 humans.

As nurses start retiring, is there some way to say, you know what, maybe it's a different number that we're having to replace.

I don't see nurses positions being eliminated.

You know, right now what you see often is we're always trying to fit in a few extra patients.

We're always trying to make space.

Our editors are really crowded space.

So we need space to just do the work.

and I think that the A.I.

is going to help help us to do that.

I don't anticipate huge changes in the number of the workforce.

>> Let me just ask Lisa a little about that.

I mean, one of the the one of the few areas that I'm really excited about in A.I.

in society is medicine.

I'm I'm hopeful that we are entering a world where cancer detection, cancer treatment, prevention of disease, longevity, quality of life is all going to get better.

But what worries me is when we start taking the human element out of that, and I cannot think of very many places where you need human touch and contact more than nursing, for example.

How do you see it?

>> Right?

Right.

I agree with you.

>> 100% and I agree with Kate.

It's our job, especially as a as a dean of a of a leading university to figure out how we're going to use A.I.

and how we train, you know, our next generation of nurses to embrace that, to ultimately improve patient outcomes.

And really, in my mind, let nurses do why they became a nurse to begin with.

Those empathetic, those high touch that support.

I'm hopeful that A.I.

helps us with that, actually.

And I'm also hopeful that, you know, when, as Kate said, as patients become older and a lot of our older, older population is becoming sicker, right, that we can utilize A.I.

to help us detect things.

Maybe a tick earlier, right, than what a nurse might be able to do.

Looking at all of those monitors, I really do think it is transformative.

The period that we're in.

But it's also very exciting, and I think it's up to us as humans, to really figure out how we embrace that and make this a better profession, quite honestly, to to improve patient outcomes.

>> Well, let's go across the table.

Let's talk about the experiences.

I want to ask Sarah to jump in first here.

Sarah Corsette is a staff nurse and also leader on the Unit of Professional Governance Council and an officer for the Professional Nursing Council of the University of Rochester Medical Center.

Been there for how long?

>> So I've been a nurse for 13 years.

I've a medical surgical nurse, which is actually one of the more in demand high turnover units.

So it just kind of speaks to how I feel very valued at URMC.

I was kind of I always just wanted to be a bedside nurse.

And I think bedside nurses are great, but I felt like I wanted to do more.

so I actually went back.

I went to the School of nursing.

I got my master's in nursing education degree back in 2021, and I've been teaching clinical for Nazareth University for the past, I think, five years now.

So I can't speak enough about that.

and we actually do have 3 or 4 scholars we talked about earlier.

and they are actually placed on units that are more in demand, which is, which is great, which I think is going to help with staffing as well.

And I can't tell you they're probably some of our best nurses on the floor.

So I just think that that program and I got my master's for free shout out that I got it for free.

I mean, I can't complain, and I think the whole dialog about the professional nursing as well as like that was one of my main motivators to go back to school.

I wanted to go back, but just having that freedom of like having that paid for was, was huge.

And I, we were talking Stephanie also teaches for Saint John Fisher, so we're just right across the street from each other.

>> We're going to get Stephanie's story in just a second here.

13 years ago when you started to today, what's the biggest difference in nursing locally?

>> Oh, gosh.

I think generationally like, I'm a millennial and I teach mostly Gen Z now, so it's just interesting, kind of like how generationally, like I feel back in the day, it's like we kind of just slaved at work.

We didn't take time off, and now we have this new generation coming in.

They're very particular about, I want to go to ICU.

I want all these days off.

They're really prioritizing wellness.

So I think as a university, we've, you know, really championing that more of those wellbeing programs and like being flexible with scheduling because they're going to leave the unit or that profession if they don't have that schedule that they want.

So it's been challenging.

But I also feel like this generation is very motivated.

they want to go back to school right away.

I mean, I didn't go back until like later on.

So I think that they have a lot of energy.

They have a lot of great ideas.

So I think it's they're really going to help, I think, profession going forward.

>> How concerned are you about the shortage both locally and nationally?

>> I am also very concerned about it.

I actually I serve on the board for our local region, for the Finger Lakes, for the New York Organization for Nurse Leaders.

And, you know, we kind of talk about this regionally, and we also talk about it at the state level.

So I kind of I know what's going on more now that I'm involved in professional nursing organizations.

I didn't get involved until a couple years ago, but I think that I'm much more well formed of what is going on, you know, across the state and at our region.

But, I mean, I work in med surg, which I said is a very high turnover floor.

Like we're lucky to keep people there until two years.

So I think we have to be kind of innovative.

Thinking about some longevity benefits, scheduling perks.

I run the nursing Instagram page.

we just celebrated one year of launch.

we're up to like, 1500 followers.

So I think we really have to, like, be innovative on, like, how are we recruiting these nurses?

A lot of them are Gen Z too, right?

So I think that's a great avenue to promote what we're doing at URMC and then show them what we're what we're doing, I think will be great.

>> I, I take the point that, number one, you got to be on different platforms like we are with the show.

The last couple of years has been pretty transformative for us, and we're trying to try to go where the people are, try to go where especially young people are moving.

In terms of platforms, you know, whether you're on there or not.

And then there's that question of values that you talked about, and it is interesting to see generation by generation.

What are their values?

What are their sort of lines in the sand that they're going to say, I will not break this.

I need this for quality of life.

Now they've got to figure out if that job is going to exist in the future.

And so I'm hearing a lot of optimism that when Gen Z or Gen Alpha or whoever in the future is trying to figure out if these jobs will still exist, that they will look at your job, they will look at this field and feel confident in that.

Do you have those conversations?

Does that come up?

>> Yeah, I mean, I I'm with them all the time, the students.

And I think it really puts me back into like how I felt as a nursing student.

Like I've been a nurse for a long time.

And I think people forget about how you felt.

You know, when you're first starting nursing.

And I, I think it's really having that support.

Like we have nurse residency program at URMC and that really helps them for that first year of being a nurse is, you know, they have the support.

They have time off the unit to learn about different educational things.

I never had a nurse residency program 13 years ago.

So I think that we've come a long way in trying to also mentor our preceptors.

Those that are also orienting our new aunties.

So I think we have to be just provide more support and, you know, work with our academic partnerships with the School of Nursing, I think is going to be really key.

>> How have you avoided if you have burnout?

I mean, a lot of talk about burnout during the pandemic.

>> I was actually.

just talking to Kate about this, when we were in the car.

I travel a lot.

people just they're like, do you work?

And I'm like, yes, I actually work a lot.

I'm going to Italy this year.

I'm going to Colorado next week.

and that just really shows that they are willing to work with your schedule.

Right.

we get, you know, four paid weeks a year off.

we do work three days a week.

So you do have that flexibility in your schedule, which I love personally.

Like I love to travel.

So I love yoga.

I think it's just having your little thing and your people that is your little niche thing that helps you kind of distract from like the chaos that's going on on the units.

>> Yeah.

And look, I'm not I don't want to be naive.

I mean, every profession has potential to have burnout.

And, you know, goodness knows that we can understand that during the pandemic it was really tough.

But it's always probably the chance that burnout is happening.

Yeah.

How common is that conversation?

And do you think that your system is doing and you talked about getting time off I get that.

But like in general, do you think that burnout is pretty well addressed within your system?

>> Yeah, I think absolutely.

just for context, for my med surg floor, we were actually a dedicated Covid floor back in 2020.

So we were in in the throes of it.

and I think that we've come a long way since then.

I think it's really connecting with those people at work, having supportive leadership there.

And I think it really comes back to those having those wellbeing programs in place.

And we actually have a chief, a chief well-being officer now, which I think is a fairly new role for our hospital.

So I think that just shows that our university really values wellbeing, that we actually have a chief that supports that.

>> Covid was pretty wild, wasn't it?

>> It was.

It was a crazy time.

>> I was talking to some my older son is 13, but, you know, I mean, he was eight years old when the pandemic hit.

And the other day he asked me about a guy that I used to play pickup basketball with, and I said, oh, you know, he died from Covid.

He was 37.

And it was like, what?

Like, yeah, yeah.

I mean, because now it's not novel anymore.

It is a coronavirus.

It is not novel to us anymore.

It can be dangerous, of course, but most people think of Covid as like annoying if you get it.

Now, you got to remember at the time, you know, my dad had a next door neighbor who was in his 50s who they did last rites.

He ended up surviving, but like, he's not going to ever walk again the same way.

Yeah.

And I think it's as time moves on, it's easy to to forget how intense those early warnings from Italy were, how those first waves were like, what it was like trying to find space and how truly everyone was doing their best at a very hard time.

What what do you remember most about those days?

>> I just think that, you know, we had to rely on each other during that time.

My unit, I am very proud of our leadership, has been super supportive.

And I think coming out of that, one of my other roles is I'm the unit council leader.

So basically every unit has a mini unit council.

It's kind of like your own like little governance.

Right.

And that's staff driven.

And I think that now these unit councils are coming up with a lot of like innovative engagement activities, doing things outside of work, inside of work, doing different projects.

And I think now we have the the time to do that, that we didn't have back then.

So I think that, you know, more engagement within the staff has been has been incredible since I've been in my role.

>> Well, after we take our break, we're going to talk to Stephanie Bakker about her experience and we will welcome your feedback.

Listen, I am very curious to know listeners if you know, if this is a field that you would not only entertain yourself, but if there's someone in your family who's thinking about it or in general, you know, your thoughts about nursing as a future.

So we're talking about the state of nursing.

It's not an easy time.

There's a national shortage.

Certainly regionally there's a concern and there's a concern in New York State, about 40,000 nurses short by 2030.

But they're working on that at the various institutions here.

And well, before the hour is up, we'll make sure we talk a little bit more again about the You Are Scholars program and what they want you to know about opportunities.

So a lot to talk about with nursing.

We'll take this only break and come right back on Connections.

>> Coming up in our second hour, our Friday News roundup takes a look at questions about Peace Village.

Three years on, it's still vacant.

It's supposed to be the City of Rochester's only sanctioned homeless encampment.

So what is going on after all this time?

Then we'll talk about the governor's race.

One high profile member of the race dropping out this week.

And we're going to conclude with a little quiz on romantic comedies and talk about their staying power.

That's next hour.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola center, proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson, believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one.

Mary Cariola.

Org and Excellus BlueCross BlueShield, working with members to find health coverage for every stage of life, helping to make care and coverage more accessible in more ways for more people across the Rochester community.

Details online at.

Zealous Ebsco.com.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

We'll get some of your feedback coming up in just a moment here.

Starting to see some emails come in at Connections at wxxi.org.

Stephanie Bakker is also with us.

Who and Stephanie is now a student in the psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner program at URMC.

take me back a little bit about your career in nursing, and tell me about a little bit about yourself, and then we'll talk about where you're going next here.

>> Okay.

Absolutely.

I've been a nurse now 26 years.

I started in a two year program at Monroe Community College and immediately transferred to the University of Rochester.

They had a bachelor's to master's program.

And I said, this is what I want to do.

I want to be a nurse practitioner.

So started there in 2000, finished up in 2004.

So I had two degrees already from U of R immediately started working across the street in the academic center and in the hospital, worked at the University of Rochester and Highland for about 15 years in a variety of positions endocrinology, psychiatry some research.

So I've had a lot of opportunity.

And being at the U of R is sort of like my second home.

I even made a funny comment earlier that sometimes my car actually just veers toward the exit to go there.

I'm like, well, no, I'm not going there today.

So back in 2015, I was working in Cpep, which is the psychiatric ed at Strang, and I decided, you know what?

I'm an FNP now, but I want to go back and get my psych certification.

So to go back to school, I did that for a year, but my son was so small I really couldn't continue.

So I did a few more things in that ten years.

And last year I said, I'm going to go back and finish.

So I was a little bit nervous because I thought to myself, how will I afford this other degree?

I already have all these additional degrees, but I have to say, when I did go for my Bachelor Masters, it was 100% tuition coverage and that really helped me be able to be part time while I was going to school and doing my clinical.

And I had a baby, and I was able to do all that successfully, and it was supported the whole way through.

So I appreciated that very much.

Coming back, I thought, I'll have to put this on my own docket.

I'll have to pay for this.

I applied to the school, I asked about a scholarship, but I thought, no, I'm not going to be eligible.

It would be somebody else.

I get my letter.

I'm frantic opening it.

Oh, you're accepted into the program.

Oh, good.

I'm so glad you also received the Patrick Lee scholarship.

100% tuition.

I'm like.

Couldn't believe it.

So excited.

I'm like, this is my destiny.

I have to do it.

>> So why did you think that wasn't going to be you?

>> Well, I'm already in the system 26 years.

You're already an FNP.

You don't need additional help at this point.

You know, you're established.

So that was incredible.

So I said, this is what I'm doing.

So I started my first course back in the summer, and I'm back again this semester.

So and the credits I did take, of course, they honored that.

so I can actually fast track through a little bit more and I'll be done.

Spring 27.

So super excited.

And really my my plug is facilitating that financial support.

And then again, the emotional support when I was a staff nurse at Strang, they accommodated my schedule so I could meet the demand of school.

It's just part of the culture at the university that if you're in school, they will find inroads to make sure that you're successful and you can complete.

But coming back again, getting that scholarship, I was just I mean, really, it defied all odds.

So very grateful.

Again, they're looking out for ways for people to be able to take this on, have work life balance, not have to work extra to pay tuition.

And that is just it can clear somebody's mind to just blaze that trail.

And with the shortage in as Lisa said in the psych mental health world, it really is driving me to be a part of that.

And this will allow that to happen.

>> That's a really hard branch of it, isn't it?

Of the field?

>> Yes.

The field.

The field is.

But what's it also is liberating and inspiring to want to be part of that, I guess, band of people that want to improve that area, especially since Covid.

So the numbers have gone up and the the resources have gone down.

So I just think there's a way to really branch out and to help more people improve patient outcomes.

There's a lot of work we need to do, but I do think having these opportunities for people like myself to be able to jump into something else, having the benefit of that scholarship, it makes all the difference in the world.

>> Do you expect this to be where you spend the rest of your nursing career?

>> I would say probably, yes.

I would like to continue that.

But again, being kind of born into the you of our mindset of teaching, scholarship and clinical, that's kind of where I'm always looking to be in those realms.

>> And so what do you tell the Gen Z's and the future possible nurses who are on the fence about this as a career.

>> I tell them there's an amazing opportunity out there.

You know, where you begin is probably not where you're going to end.

And you will be remarkable.

You will make a difference in people's lives.

And that's most of what nursing students say.

I want to make a difference.

I want to help people.

They're going to have that opportunity.

>> So, you know, Lisa, Kate, we're hearing these really remarkable stories, and we're hearing from people who are deeply satisfied with the work.

They're finding enough balance to feel like, I'm not going to get torched out of this.

I can stay if if their experience is the common one.

How do you have a shortage?

What is the disconnect?

What what am I not understanding about this?

Kate.

>> So I think one of the things that is part of the disconnect is how many people have left the profession because of Covid, right?

So you talked a lot about how hard it was just a few years ago.

And so nursing is one of those interesting things when you look at the like number of people who have their nursing license, it's like, well, why do we have a shortage?

We have all these people who are nurses.

Nurses can do a lot of things, and they can go to a lot of places.

And so everybody wants a nurse on their team.

So there are lots of people who have worked as nurses at the bedside, at the chair or clinic side for a little while, and they're out working with the A.I.

companies, or they're out doing all of these things.

>> And if we had not had a pandemic, do you think we would have anywhere near the shortage we have right now?

>> I don't think we would have as near the shortage, but I think we would still have the shortage because of the age of a lot of nurses.

Right?

A lot of people, there was a big nursing shortage in the 80s.

And so there was a lot of work to get people to go into the field of nursing.

And those people have not stayed young.

Right?

So they're all getting ready to retire.

And so we see that the age of our nursing workforce is like the age of our community.

And so there would be a shortage because of that.

>> So, Dean, do you want to endorse that as the sort of the diagnosis of it?

Because I think you got to understand why the lay public hears this and goes, if this is as good a career as you're describing, you wouldn't have the shortage.

But I take the point here.

What do you think?

>> Yes.

>> I agree with Kate, although I think one of the positives about Covid, if there are any, it made us much more attuned to the mental health and wellness of our workforce.

I think it normalized talking about I'm not feeling okay and I need help.

we have done a lot with not only how we educate our students, but the the processes we have in place for our workforce to talk about mental health and wellness.

That is that is a positive for sure.

The other thing I want to highlight is you know, we're in a very special community here.

and I think this community works a lot to support nursing as a workforce and a profession.

you go beyond our, you know, our, our little community.

And there are improvements that need to be made for sure.

that I do think deter people from perhaps not perhaps staying in nursing, pursuing nursing, but staying there.

>> So so let me follow that thread a little bit.

I have an email from a listener in the Finger Lakes, David and Ovid listening on Finger Lakes Public Radio.

WEOS has questions about in some cases, nurses reporting, you know, poor working conditions or conditions that they want to change.

And he says this is a profession that had roots in military service, emphasizing duty and hierarchy, says it seems to have evolved into a modern system of 12 hour shifts.

Chronic mandatory overtime and few benefits, including, you know, whether nurses have health care, he says.

It's ironic that some nurses don't have health care.

So can you address some of that?

Some of the concerns that David and the Finger Lakes has about the state of the quality of the benefits and what is offered?

Nurses.

>> Yeah, yeah.

And again, you know there are, you know, there are areas as there is in any occupation, right where there is certainly not parity in terms of how the workforce is treated.

If I and I do this with my students, as hopefully I did with each of you, right, to really advocate, to get to an area where you have a good working environment, where you are pursued, you know, you are supported as a profession.

There are good orientation and nurse residency programs, and there are opportunities to continue your career.

I think we're highlighting the best of the best out there right now, and we're very proud of that.

To have that in our community.

But there are areas, as in every profession, right where we can be doing better.

So yes.

>> David's conclusion is we should expect hospital employers to treat these essential professionals with the same respect and specialized care that they afford their own patients.

So I mean, I mean, everyone's nodding here.

I Sarah, I'm not going to ask you to name any names, but can you think of systems that you go, I don't know that I'd want to work there right now, because it's not the level of what I'm getting, where I'm at right now.

>> It's interesting because I've only ever been at URMC, so that's all I know.

I'm literally running the Instagram.

So I actually I don't even have any really friends or colleagues.

Like all my colleagues are from URMC, so I really can't speak to other healthcare systems.

But I do think that if people are concerned, get involved in your local nursing profession.

I mean, I just got involved with the New York Organization for Nurse Leaders the past couple of years, and I, I do feel like now I have a voice, which I didn't think that I had.

And like, we can go to, you know, D.C., there's a lobby day.

So I would encourage, if someone is concerned to speak out because I think that's only way things are going to change.

>> Stephanie, do you agree with that?

And can you imagine places where you go, look, I love where I'm at, but I'm not going there.

>> I would say absolutely.

I again, I think going back to the parity and it can be different in different places.

And how much value are they putting on, you know, helping nurses stay in the profession.

That retention is really critical.

You know, growing, giving those opportunities again for scholarship, for growth leadership.

And there's a lot of opportunities in this local community to do that.

But in some others, I would say it's there's more of a deficit for sure.

>> Do you guys all get health care?

>> Yes, absolutely.

>> Yes.

I mean, David's point again, this is not my expertise.

David's concerned that he's hearing of nurses in some places who don't even get health care coverage.

Is that correct?

>> I think it depends on who your employer is.

Right.

And so I think that.

not here, not here, not here, I think it very much depends on what what that work environment is like.

And who is your employer.

So I think, you know, you could there are not very many private physician offices or nurse practitioner offices around anymore, but that would be a very different kind of working experience than if you're working in a big academic medical center.

So I think there's a lot of variety.

I think there are also limitations of our health care system related to finance.

And so we hear a lot about long term care as an industry having a lot of challenges because of the economics of it.

And so if you're working in a piece of health care that is under-resourced, it makes sense that all of the workers are going to be challenged.

So my sense is an organization that has an opportunity to pay nurses more, probably has an opportunity to pay their aides more.

Like I don't think in situations like that, nurses are called out like we were called out by the Department of Health.

I think it's about the organization.

>> xAI says that he hears that nurses stereotypically have really challenging schedules, constantly changing from month to month, and can wreak havoc on their sleep schedule and by extension, their the way they function throughout the day.

So how tough are your schedules, I guess do you want to start on this one?

Sarah?

>> I think the great thing about nursing, too, is like, once you're, you know, more senior on your unit, you get better, you know, choice for vacation weeks, we get four paid vacation weeks a year, two summer, two non summer, and then a fifth week we can use throughout.

it really depends where you work, though.

I think you really have to determine, you know, what is your work life balance like do you want to work 312 a week or do you want to work less hours and not do weekends?

I mean, some of the spaces, they don't work on weekends.

So I think there's a lot of flexibility.

I think when you first are starting out, your career in patients, great.

But that might not last forever.

If you have a family, if you have kids, you know.

So I think that, you know, some of my colleagues love night shifts.

I absolutely hate them.

I don't want to work them at all, but I do have to work them because it's part of my job.

But I think that you could really work with your scheduler.

I think, like I said, I travel, they they're there, they're willing to work with you.

They want you to succeed.

>> It isn't all just chaos.

>> No, I like to have fun.

>> A lot too.

You agree with that, Stephanie?

>> Absolutely.

I think again, you may take a position when you're first starting out day, evening position or day night position.

And as you get trained and you feel more comfortable, at some point you can change to an outpatient outpatient position.

So there's so many opportunities.

If you find that your first 1 or 2 years in nursing is not where you want to be, there is a plethora of opportunity and you can get that work life balance or get what you need.

I know some some of my friends or staff that are nurses work nights because they want to be with their kids.

They want to get their child off the bus.

That is a possibility.

Or they switch with their spouse or partner.

Work days.

They work nights.

So really it you can find that I would say utopia or that he, you know, homeostasis for your life.

>> Judy writes to say I was a med surg nurse, okay.

A med surg nurse for 30 years.

It was the best career I could have imagined.

I would encourage people to think of a nursing career.

It's flexible with school nurse, outpatient areas, hospice, home care, et cetera.

you will always have a job.

No two days are the same.

You have to use your mind and your body to do the work well.

That is from Judy.

>> Thank you Judy.

>> Thank you, thank you Judy.

>> I need more med surg nurses.

>> A med surg nurse, by the way, is what.

>> A medical surgical nurse.

So we we pretty much get everything, which I really, I really like.

We see all different diagnoses, you know, in and out of surgery.

Or it could just be, you know, they need a placement or things like that.

You just you really see everything which, which I love.

>> But what if I'm squeamish with blood?

>> I mean.

>> Okay, maybe not my friend.

>> Some people.

>> You take turns.

>> Yes.

Take turns.

Yes.

>> let me grab one more email here and then we're going to talk before the hour is up again about what is happening locally that they're doing to try to encourage more people to enter this, this field here.

Mark, want to know about rural hospitals?

He says we keep hearing about rural hospitals possibly closing.

is nursing a harder career in rural hospitals right now?

Again?

well, I guess it's sort of kept here.

URMC you are.

Medicine covers soldiers and Sailors Hospital.

I think in Geneva.

>> Geneva?

>> Geneva?

>> Yeah.

Saint James down in Hornell, Jones and Wellsville.

Noyes and Dansville.

>> So that footprint has really expanded.

Yes, and certainly includes some rural areas.

Yep.

And in that way, I don't know if that's what Mark's talking about, because if you're in Penn Yan or Hornell, but you're connected to you are medicine.

You know, you're a rural hospital, but you've got a really important partnership that's got a foundation you do here right now of rural hospitals that don't necessarily have those partnerships that are really hurting.

And I think that's probably what more what Mark is talking about in the email.

are you worried about those places?

>> I am worried about those places.

I grew up in western New York, in a rural community.

And so I know that, you know, when you have to drive an hour or an hour and a half to get to the nearest hospital to have a baby or something like that, it can be really challenging.

So it is very different to work in a rural hospital.

They tend to have some different staffing plans.

It also is an exciting place to work because you might take care of a five year old and a 85 year old on your same nursing assignment, so there can be a lot of variety.

It's just a very differently resourced, different kind of nursing.

>> Yeah.

all right, Mark, I hope we answered that.

I actually have two quick phone calls to work in.

Got to move fast here.

Dennis in Rochester.

Hi, Dennis.

Go ahead.

>> hi, Evan.

I just wanted to put a little plug in for the patient care techs.

I work on a med surg Florida hospital in the area, and they're indispensable.

As sorry, as a nurse.

And they're indispensable to our work.

And I want to make sure they get the recognition that they deserve.

Because I think part of the burnout of nursing is that at least I see on my unit, we have a high tech turnover, and oftentimes we don't have enough support with things like getting patients clean, doing vitals, and then it falls on the nurses to do a lot of that.

And it gets overwhelming when you have a six patient assignment and three of your patients are incontinent and you don't have enough helping hands to get all the jobs done.

>> Well, Dennis, thank you for doing that work and much love to you and your colleagues there.

And a lot of nods around the table.

>> Yes.

>> Thank you Dennis.

You're right, you're right.

>> It takes the whole team to be able to take good care of patients for sure.

>> And any missing cog of that team, they are all equally important, and any missing cog can disrupt the whole system.

So thank you Dennis.

>> And just being in med surg, I can completely relate to you.

I could not function during my shift without Pcts and we actually we do celebrate them during National Nurses Week too.

So we're at URMC.

We are going to do that as well during National Nurses Week.

>> Dennis, thank you for for making the time to call.

And really, again, thank you for the for the work that you do.

Marilyn in Rochester.

Go ahead.

Marilyn.

>> Hi Evan.

It's Marilyn Dollinger calling.

Marilyn calling.

>> Hi Marilyn.

>> You have on your panel who have done an absolutely fabulous job and I it's music to my ears to hear them talk about.

One, the importance of advocacy and the role that nurses have.

And the main vehicle for doing that is through professional associations.

So when Lisa mentioned our wonderful supportive nursing community in this region, I think we have a very collegial greater nursing community both in education and practice.

So we've got a wonderful place to work.

We've got lots of work to do.

Workplace safety, a variety of other things.

But the comment about join your professional associations, get involved.

And that's how nurses have an impact on the future of nursing.

>> Marilyn, thank you very much.

>> Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Marilyn.

>> I want to thank Marilyn.

And she highlighted, I think the the secret sauce of our community.

I came from a very competitive environment in my former position to see how we all work together.

The deans, we meet regularly, we talk with, you know, the leaders of our health care institutions.

We are all in this as one.

And you can even see that from Nars and Saint John Fisher.

we work really hard as, as a group to really try as much as we can to advocate and attract nurses and keep.

>> Them well before we lose the our here again, Dean, you mentioned that you are scholars program, but if you missed it earlier this hour, it's probably worth repeating here.

We're in a situation where in this country there are possibly several hundred thousand nurses across the country, short, and some states have it worse than others for our state by 2030, they say roughly a 40,000 nurse shortage in New York state in our region.

I mean, they take 500 more nurses right now.

But I mean, it's going to be an ongoing challenge.

What is the You Are Scholars program?

What do you want people.

>> To know?

Yes.

>> So the first off, I have to and you highlighted donors, donors, support for tuition scholarships.

>> Amazing.

>> Absolutely critical.

And what our institution as an academic health center is invested in is if you want to be a nurse and you're coming with a bachelor's degree you can go.

It's it's it's three semesters.

You can get it done in a year.

If you have a bachelor's in another field, and you can go tuition free, you don't have to get loans.

These aren't loans being forgiven.

This is tuition free with a three year work commitment and one of those high need areas like Sarah highlighted.

it's great.

We provide mentorship.

We help with transition to practice.

This has been a relationship that this is probably one of the few communities we can do this.

Kate and I work very closely as an academic health center to be able to do this.

So any interest, go to our website, school of nursing.

Sohn Rochester.edu.

Google it.

advisors there that are willing to talk to you.

But nursing is a great profession.

I've been doing it for a long time and don't regret it for a minute.

>> What is the biggest threat to the future of nursing right now?

>> I think that there's a lot of government threats, right?

We've worked so hard to, you know, promote nursing as a profession and a great career, providing, you know, generational wealth.

you know, these attacks where nursing isn't a profession or our students aren't going to be able to get loans.

That's what I see as our biggest threat.

those things take traction and it takes so many years to undo those, you know, those those misperceptions.

>> And I'll close with this.

You know, Sarah, we talked about what everyone does to kind of avoid burnout.

And for anyone who's listening, who thinks, well, you know, these are carefully selected nurses and there's probably people who are really struggling.

I mean, everybody struggles at times here.

Would you ever hesitate to tell anyone, you know, that this is something that that they should pursue?

>> I just love being a nurse.

I just I can scream it off the rooftops.

I actually had to work today and I moved my schedule around so I could be here today.

>> When did your shift end?

Today.

>> I actually worked 7 to 11 a.m.

and then I got someone to come in.

So I'm actually coming from work today.

>> All right.

>> So that's how much I wanted to talk today.

>> Sarah Corsette Stephanie Bakker repping the working nurses right now.

Thank you for sharing your stories and your experiences.

Thanks for the work that you're doing for your patients, and I really appreciate you both being here.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> Our thanks as well.

To Kate Valcin, Chief Nursing Executive at URMC.

Thank you for being back with us.

And Dean Lisa Kitko.

Nice to see you again.

Thank you for telling the story as well.

We've got more Connections coming up in just a moment.

>> This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience.

Any rebroadcast or use in another medium, without express written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the Connections link at wxxinews.org.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Two Point Capital Management, an investment firm creating custom portfolios of stocks and bonds for individuals and institutions.

Two point is dedicated to managing risk in good times and bad two point capital management life opens up.