From WXXI news, I'm Matt Turk, artistic director at the Little Theater.

Filling in today for Evan Dawson.

And this is connections.

William Shakespeare's The Tragedy of Macbeth, first performed in approximately 1606, is one of those stories that's often referenced because of how timeless it is, having been adapted to film, television, opera, novels, comics, and just about every medium you can think of.

Macbeth.

Themes of the violent, damaging effects of greedy political ambitions and the corruption of power continue to resonate with humanity today.

Shocking.

The play is currently being performed on stage here in Rochester.

thanks to the team at the company theater, one of Rochester newest theater collectives.

And joining me here in the studio to discuss it are Khalil de Bono, actor playing Macbeth and founding artistic director of the company theater.

Philip Dittrich, director of Macbeth and vice president of the board of the company Theater.

And Jill Ringer, actor, playing Lady Macbeth and board member of the company theater.

Thanks so much for being here, guys.

thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for having us.

So jumping right into it, the company theater is really new in town.

This is your third season, correct?

This is the second production of our third season.

Wow.

Yeah.

So, did you start after the pandemic then?

We did.

Right on the tail end of it.

It was, we were doing, a big group of us were doing a show with a different theater company, and sort of it was also Shakespeare.

And we were looking around at each other going, oh, wow, this feels really good.

Like, if we had our own company, what would we do?

and that was, that was 20, 21.

And then we sort of cooked it up together and brought on a lot of great local artists.

and, and just community people for the board.

And.

Yeah, that's sort of how it started with like, such a, you know, a town with such a rich theater history and like, so many other groups in town, like, that must have been, I assume, really challenging to try to, like, figure out how to, like, start a whole new theater company.

What was that like?

Totally.

I mean, it started really just with that kernel of an idea of like, hey, we would do some, like classic pieces.

And, the main conceit for the company theater at the beginning was that we were going to be sort of this like nomadic troupe of traveling players, and we would go to different spots and do like site specific, work.

So like pick the show and then pick a space that made sense for that specific show.

So like the first show of our, of our first season was Shakespeare's Richard, the second.

And I'd always wanted to do that in a, like, really, really clean, kind of grungy, loft space, like an industrial space.

Oh, cool.

And we happened to find that thanks to our one of our board members, which that loft space happens to be connected to the theater that we're in now.

So it kind of snowballed, and we ended up just staying there and going into their main theater space at the temple building.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, I think I've only personally seen, I think, Jazz Fest shows at the temple building in that case.

Like, yeah, they do concerts, they do events.

What's it, what's it like staging theater there.

Like it's pretty crazy.

this is my second full, production there.

And I've done a fringe show there and it's, it's huge.

It has these amazing stained glass windows, which I think that's, it's gorgeous to look at, but then like, oh, suddenly our Sunday matinees are at 5 p.m. because we have to fight with the sun.

but like, it's it's cool.

It's especially doing Shakespeare in that space.

It feels so grandiose and so epic.

It just it fits.

It really fits the space.

That's awesome.

in that case, like, I think as you talked about, like, forming a company and trying to figure out, like, what you were going to stage, like, did you end up deciding, like, how did you end up deciding, like, what between new works, old works?

Like, how did you kind of figure out, like what that was at the, at kind of the genesis of forming this?

Honestly, the biggest part of it was sort of saying, well, what is kind of not super expensive to, yeah, produce.

So we were like, hey, let's do, let's do a couple seasons, you know, before we really get the ball rolling and just like, see how things go.

Let's do a couple seasons of like, all public domain works, which we didn't end up sticking to that.

But most of what we do is are things that are in the public domain or works that are new, that are being sort of not commissioned by us, but given to us by writers.

So like we did, the first show of this season was a play called The Summerland by Kate Royle, who's a Chicago playwright.

But it was about things, events that happened in Rochester.

right before the Civil War.

So like the Fox Sisters and Amy and Isaac Post and Phil was Phil was in that, he played Alicia Kane and so that was what that show was about.

And then the next show after Macbeth is, Great Expectations, which is a new adaptation of the Charles Dickens novel.

so that's adapted and directed by Don Brenner.

So he's, he's, you know, giving that to us to produce, but it's like, we don't have to we don't have to pay for the, no royalties.

Royalties?

Yeah.

This is our first true royalty free season, and it feels nice to, like, have that as kind of like our I don't want to say genre or whatever, but like, our, like, our little niche is like, hey, let's try to do these cool classical works, these new pieces.

and I think we're trying to stick with that into next season, but we're in the early stages, so who knows what we're going to come out with.

Yeah.

Anything's possible.

So, so in this case, in terms of like, all of you are not just involved in the production of Macbeth, but in the actual, like running an organization of the actual company.

Can you, like, talk a little bit about, like how you find, like doing both roles?

In that case?

Well, thankfully we all enjoy each other's company.

Yeah.

That helps.

working with a company theater's, a collaborative effort all the way.

So, holding our board meetings, maybe even before we have a rehearsal.

That's no big deal.

I'll find a place to grab lunch or something in between.

So, Yeah, again.

Thankfully, we all enjoy being together and and coming up with creative problem solving ideas, so that's as fun.

but then, Carl, since you're founding artistic director, is the choosing of the work.

Is that like a whole board process or is like you kind of leaving or how does that work?

We have a committee.

We have a season selection committee that sort of we all kind of come together and throw titles into a big bowl and mix them up.

Yeah.

And see like, oh, that's kind of cool.

And then that would fit with this and something that we've been doing since the beginning.

And I don't know if this happened like it's kind of a chicken or the egg scenario.

Like if we planned to do themed seasons or, or if that just sort of happened naturally.

But like each, each season has sort of had like a through line.

Yeah, exactly.

so like the first season was sort of was literally transition us transitioning out of the pandemic back into being in-person theater.

and also every one of our characters, which this is kind of a basic thing to say about, like storytelling is like, oh, the character changed.

Interesting.

But like, but it was, you know, for Richard, he went from being a, you know, God king to a normal man.

wisdom of Eve.

Eve went from being a fan to a star.

It's things like that.

And then we had another what was last year's like theme.

It was like chaos.

I feel like chaos theory.

Eclipse.

Yeah.

We see we have like a fundraiser tied to the eclipse, and all of our shows had something to do with, like, so is Romeo and Juliet for star crossed lovers.

There's man who came to dinner with, like, the Chaos Theory and all that jazz and, that's really cool.

And then this one, this season it was about power review power reveals and in all its ways.

And that's and that's really cool.

And the three lines are there with like the Summerland, the power through spirit.

Macbeth.

You know, the power through literal power politics, fate, whatever you want to call it.

Great Expectations, her power over pep and that.

Yeah.

What happens when he then becomes a gentleman, like so many?

The power dynamics of that show.

And then Tartikoff, which is our final show of the season, the power that her to of has over his employer and like his whole household.

Yeah.

So like it's not not that power always corrupts.

It's that power always reveals is sort of the.

Yeah.

The thing which is a a quote from someone.

I'm going to think of it into our Robert de Caro, Robert Caro.

So aside from obviously the the through line of power in that case, and obviously what you already said about like choosing Macbeth as a show, like what what did you feel like you could bring to Macbeth in terms of telling this classic story and everything?

Like, what do you feel like?

Kind of like is the I don't want, say, the kernel of like this production, but yeah, but like like, what are you, like focusing on or is it just the power aspect of it?

for me, my draw to Macbeth when I first started going into it was, how much nature is talked about, and I, I was in a production in college and I've seen different productions and it's almost always it's not always, but very oftentimes very big and explosive or like post-apocalyptic with these pipes and things and I thought to myself, well, can we just tell the calmest, like Macbeth, that we can obviously gets crazy because that's just the nature of the story.

But I got drawn to these ideas of nature in this calmness and this idea of like, oh, the chaos is already there and nature wants to take it back.

And then we got this beautiful, natural thing in the process where the power was revealed in these very cool, intimate ways that I feel like are never shown in Macbeth.

So the kernel, I guess, was nature.

And it grew into this just very like natural, like thing.

And it's just this beautiful.

We rely on the words not very set heavy, and it's just like a telling of the story, which I feel like doesn't happen too often with Macbeth, it's usually got a lot of garnish.

As it were.

So is that how is that something then, that the two of you then brought into your performances, like in reinforcing that.

well, in terms of Lady Macbeth and how she's traditionally been played, I was reticent to play her as simply murderous.

I approached her as a woman who was given a new opportunity, a new lease on life.

and she takes it to, the furthest degree in plotting, murder.

But, I also didn't see her as just being that person.

So, yes, it revealed a lot when she was given the opportunity to do so and what that meant for her and her family.

but, yeah, just really reluctant to make her a, one sided murderous person.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

And for me, I mean, being able to do this in, like, a very stripped down way where you're not having to worry about, like, a tons of, like, tons of bells and whistles and like, you know, it really let at least I can at least speak for myself where it let the, the text become the thing that we were all sort of like holding.

We're holding space.

Holding space for the free Shakespeare stuff.

Shocking.

but that that really.

And that's something I've heard from people who have seen it have that's like the overwhelming response is like, I really like heard the words this time around.

yeah.

Which that's that's really freeing for me as an actor like that.

It, it ended up being this very like streamlined, visceral, interesting and and still really, really deep and human, look at that story.

Cool.

And is, listen, we all, we all work in the arts within, within, like, know a mid-sized city.

We and again, as, since I also work on, a film festival in that case that that also is, you know, and it's for, we're in seven years, but, you know, but like, we're like, hey, early in the process, still, we find that one of the biggest challenges is find to find that balance between what we want to put out in terms of being like, this is the best possible thing.

You can see we're doing amazing work, but also finding that balance between budgets.

So like is you, how are you choosing in that case?

Like when like to be like, oh, our budget is going towards, I don't know, anything or lack like a budget budget, you know, but like, yeah.

How do you find where that balance is?

It's, I well, luckily we have an amazing technical director and Brody Macpherson, who is the Source king.

He knows that he knows how to squeeze a penny.

Like he's just.

So luckily, we were able to, like, really manage our budget with him.

But it's, you know, I mean, despite the budget constraints, because we have them.

That's how everything is.

I feel like we've put on some pretty cool stuff.

We've had some pretty cool sets, man.

I think, you know, and it's almost always credit to Brody and his ingenuity.

And he's just such a source of talent and work ethic.

That blows my mind, every time.

And like, you know, I designed the set for this one.

But it was Brody's guidance that got it to where it was at.

And yeah, you know, we have the budgets, but it's a lot of like, all right, so how can I cut the set budget in half so costumes can have a third.

And now lights can have a little bit more of a bump.

And we well now we're in our third season and we now have stockpile.

Oh we have lumber.

We didn't have that in our first two seasons.

Right.

So that's made things a little easier to manage.

Like it's like oh we're it's kind of a real theater that's kind of fun.

And it's kind of cool.

We've also been really, really lucky to have like a lot of donors, community friends and yeah, people in the community who are willing and and want to donate things to us, borrowing costumes and co-parenting pieces of furniture with other theaters.

Yeah.

Because they're like, well, you need the, you know, you need this sofa for that show.

and we don't have anywhere to store it anymore.

So would you just, like, hold on to it after you guys clothes?

Yeah.

Okay.

We have extra room in our in our storage space right now.

So for, like, wine, for gifts, a huge.

Yeah, a massive sarcophagus we're holding space for.

Thank you so much.

Soda.

Yeah.

Wait, so you're not programing a show around the sofa then, are you?

Is that next?

Is like, earlier.

Like we've used it in what we.

We were in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

We used it in like, we just, we've used several different sofas and so a different.

Yeah.

So it's this resourcefulness.

Yeah.

That's what research was a good word.

It really is.

We need to do a, like a scavenger hunt for the audiences to get them to keep coming back to shows like, oh, we're here.

Did you see that thing before?

Oh, I saw that crown in Richard the second.

I saw that, fur stole in Man Who Came to Dinner.

That's a perfect.

And then you win some, like, free tickets or something.

Yeah.

Oh, come on, marketing new.

I kind of love that.

And I feel like that also ties, like, nicely into the fact that you do have additional elements to the production.

Like, I think you just had a talkback last night on the performance last Sunday.

Sunday.

Sorry.

Yes.

But but like that, like adding that kind of an element, like how did that go and how did like that enhance the experience for the audience?

Yeah, we, a couple of things that are these sort of like add ons that now we're just like, we want them to be in the same place each show, because then it's easier for the audience to remember.

So like, First Sunday is always the talkback.

second, third.

So like the first Thursday, which is our second week of shows, is always the pay what you will performance.

So that makes it, you know, a little bit more accessible.

Just get people in.

I've never seen a production of Macbeth or I've never seen Shakespeare before, but I really, you know, I'm a student.

I don't have a ton of money.

Oh, okay.

I can go and, you know, drop a dollar in the bucket and.

Yeah, or not, keep that discount.

I just come by.

Yeah.

Spending on concessions, whatever you want to do.

and then we always have, our final Saturday performance is always our, American Sign Language interpreted performance.

So these sort of, like, built in things that are meant to not just boost us, but, like, boost the community.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

And it it allows them to engage.

Like what the talkback it was.

They get if they have any questions about I don't know if it's if it's from vision to just man.

What was your biggest challenge or how do you even approach your role.

You get to hear these questions.

And then sometimes you hear answers you don't expect.

Like, you know, one of the questions was, how do you approach this famous text and make it your own?

And then I heard, you know, Lennox, Ian, speak up.

And he gave the super profound answer that I was like, not ready for where he was like, you know, he had a teacher in college that said, It's Shakespeare.

It's been around for hundreds of years.

All the text has been said, all the ways.

Don't think about it.

Just figure out how to make it you.

And I was like, that was so cool, such a good answer.

And I think that's what it's stuff like that brings out and hopefully the audience get something out of that.

I did.

So yeah.

Do you feel like then in that case, like, I know that people talk about like, obviously theater is like, a very close community, not just in like a small town with like other theater groups, but also the fact that, like, it's live interaction, like with each other and like close knit bonds and everything.

But I do feel like, not to, you know, years later, keep talking about the pandemic in that case.

But I feel like that is something that was so lost is the not only the like, cohort ness of like a troupe, but also that audience feedback and audience interaction.

In that case, you're you're in Temple Theater.

It's a big space in that case, like, do you feel like audience wise, you're still feeding off of that energy in that case?

Absolutely.

When we have people out there and we can just barely see the glow of the of the tops of their heads due to our really cool, like configuration.

that's everything.

Because we don't do this in a vacuum.

We do this for people to experience it with us.

we don't do it for ourselves.

the byproduct, the happy byproduct of that is that we get to form new bonds, create new friendships, have this creative process together, but we do it for people to come and see.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

And that, you know, it's not it's not exactly our mission, but the the company theater, it's baked right into our name that the whole idea was getting us out of the pandemic and back into the theater with each other as artists, but also with the audience.

Yeah.

There is clearly a, like a thirst, a want for it that that process with much ado, you know, it was we were in muck and we were selling out, packing people in the gills.

It was talking.

It was wild.

Yeah.

But like that, that just naturally fueled us to go, like, let's do this thing.

Let's let's let's do it.

People want it.

Let's see what happens.

And that was with RCP.

So shout out to them.

Yeah they're great.

I recently saw a film, called Grand Theft Hamlet.

which, was about, we're hoping to bring to the little somebody, so I'll be there.

But, it was literally actors during the pandemic and feeling isolated and alone and wanting to perform, but also wanting that sense of an audience.

And so they decided to try to stage hamlet within Grand Theft Auto Online.

Oh my gosh.

and literally all the challenges about the production of that, because they would keep getting shot as they tried to rehearse, in the game.

In the game.

it was great.

I, I highly recommend was it a movie or a documentary?

It's a documentary.

It's you.

That's fantastic.

Yeah.

All the footage is from within the game.

So.

Yeah, it's so funny.

It's.

Yeah, it was.

It was a great time.

Oh.

That's amazing.

But that's I don't know, that's just what I think of when I think about like again, like that, that sense of like an, it's not just an internal need, but it's that sense of community and performance and audience.

In that case, it's like it's wanting to like, share art.

It's wanting to like, feel that human connection.

human human connection has been a lot on my mind.

Like, it's timeless.

I agree with that.

And I agree with you.

And not to get on a soapbox real quick, but I really don't like I and live feed.

Our theater is just like the perfect anti.

I like art form.

You can't put eye on a human's face on stage that I know of, you know.

Yeah, and that connection is that's what it's all about.

And that kind of feels like what we're doing with Macbeth.

In a way.

It's this idea of human will and connection and juxtaposed against nature or fate and how that fights through it or gets beaten by it.

And yeah, man, I love art.

Sorry, I kind of lady.

Come on, art is.

No, that's great.

That's great.

Like and not to like again like go even further on that but like Jill.

Yeah like do you have a sense of like besides the, the audience aspect to have a sense of like what personally like drives you to perform in that case?

Yeah, I, I feel like I need to scratch that itch like once every 18 months or so.

I've got kids at home.

I love being at home.

And Victor.

So for me to leave my little nest and my family at night and come out to rehearse four nights out of the week, I have to love the people.

I have to love the piece.

I have to feel like I'm going to maybe affect some change in myself and hopefully, inspire people to think differently once they see the show.

I don't know, it's it's a craving I have that needs to be fed every so often.

So I'm so grateful for the opportunity because here in this town, we we struggle in the best possible way because we can't go see our peers in productions right now because we're playing at the same time.

I mean, we have such an abundance of riches here in Rochester in terms of theater, and I wouldn't be anywhere else.

Carl, anything to add?

Yeah, I mean, it, I, I kind of have been jumping from show to show for the last few years, and every single one I've, I've, I like take stock at the end and I'm like, oh, my God, I learned so much about myself.

And just the way, the way I approach a project and the way, you know, how do I how do I say this?

Like correctly?

yeah.

Just how much you learn about about the act of creation and the and and connecting with each other on, on that level, but also just as human beings.

Yeah, that I think I think that humanity aspect is ultimately what is running through all art.

And I think that's totally, not to tease for the future, but our next hour is actually about AI and art and the like.

Yeah, yeah yeah.

No no no no.

Listen, like let's listen to the recording later.

Oh right.

Right, right.

Well absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

but I think that that's ultimately that's ultimately what we're all chasing is again, that, that kind of feel about like that human connection.

And again, I think that's what so I don't want to say like so powerful about art in that case collaboration and collaborations.

Yeah.

Best.

Absolutely.

we're going to take a short break.

And then when we come back, we will have more with our guests, Carl de Bono, Philipp Dietrich and Jill Ranger.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Coming up in our second hour, my colleague Matt, to talk host the discussion about the new horror movie companion, a horror movie, because it's pretty stabby, pretty violent, but also a horror movie about how I can go wrong.

Dating companions that are I that look and feel like human beings and are supposed to be programable and controllable.

Is that our future?

We'll talk about it.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson, Auto Group.

Proud supporter of connections with Evan Dawson, believing an informed public makes for a stronger community.

Bob Johnson Auto group.com.

This is connections.

I'm Matt de Turk sitting in for Evan Dawson, and we are discussing Shakespeare's Macbeth with the cast and crew of the company theater's production currently on stage here in Rochester at the Temple Theater.

I do want to take a second to plug the fact that, Macbeth is currently in the air here.

at the moment, we at the little, have two screenings of a different live staged performance that has been filmed of Macbeth.

happening on February 9th and 16th.

it was filmed live on stage at the Donmar Warehouse, in London.

It is starring David Tennant and Cush Jumbo.

And the community theater is, art.

Sorry.

The company theater is our community partner.

and you can find more details about that screening at the little.org.

I want to thank you, of course, for being like, partners on that in that case, because I don't love that the dates are exactly the same as two other productions.

No thank you.

That's such a I.

It couldn't have happened at a better time, surely.

Like we are bummed because we want to go see it, but also it's it's great that it's like you said, it's clearly in the air.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think that, the the next thing I want to like, at least ask about is also a question that I had written down.

But also, Gary in Greece asked about which is the curse of the name.

and in that case, Gary says, do you abide by the superstition that you can't say Macbeth in the, in the theater itself, as part of the folklore of the play?

I'm going to be totally honest.

I wasn't aware of this until this week.

I had never heard I know, I know.

Listen, everyone's aghast, but and I, I know that's the problem.

Yeah.

I had never heard of the worse.

That's a constant problem.

I'd never heard of it this week.

And I literally was saying it in the, in literally in the little.

And one of our projections was like, you can't say that we're in a theater.

And I was like, what are you talking about?

Like whole title?

I yeah, exactly.

I had no idea.

So anyway, so do you call it the Scottish play or something else?

I, so to call back to the talkback thing for Summerland is all about spiritualism.

And somebody asked, hey, how do you feel about spiritualism in religion?

And I was like, not to be the the skeptic, but not to be the skeptic.

Yeah, I don't really I don't, I don't, I don't fall for that.

I go along with it for my fellow artists.

but you know, once you're doing the play, you're good.

It's free game, it's Macbeth, you know, it's like, that's kind of what it's you're you're showing it at the little.

You can say Macbeth.

Like, that's the way.

That's the way I look at it.

You're.

You're good, you're clean, you're good, you're good.

But there is I think if you do it wrong, there's some like, what is it like a ritual you do to wash the babies away?

Yeah.

You get sent out of the theater and you have to.

I think you have to turn around three times, and then you have to be invited back in.

What?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I believe is the thing.

There's a whole thing, but I don't have time for that in the rehearsal process.

I'm pretty.

I feel like you gave us permission.

That you were just like, now that we're here, you can just say it.

Also, we're rehearsing in a different room, so we weren't technically in a theater.

We were in a room adjacent to the theater when we were rehearsing.

And, yeah, superstition wise, I think I'm like, Michael Scott said, I'm a little vicious.

I'm not superstitious.

Yeah.

like, I have my I know I have my own little rituals about things.

Just.

Just because I'm alive and I'm a human.

Yeah, yeah.

but yeah, I don't I don't really go around calling it the Scottish play.

I feel like everybody always calls it Maccas.

Yeah, or like, oh.

Oh, that company did Mac.

And you know what they're talking about.

There's a vernacular associated with it.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, I had no idea whatsoever pulling off of that superstition and spirituality aspect is, as someone who likes horror and fantasy, another thing I got to ask about the witches in that case, and kind of how you're approaching that I that was the very first thing I took a huge like cut to, because Shakespeare is naturally edited for any most of the time.

Like sometimes people will do the whole thing.

But I wanted the witches to be more prominent in this version.

You know, they basically they basically duck out, you know, in the end, halfway through the play, after they chat with Hecate a couple times, so I, I was like reading through the text and I was like, I don't like Hecate to.

So I just cut her head and and I'm also a lover of fantasy and things.

So like it was in I love magic.

I love like Lord of the rings.

I love video games.

That's that's my big thing.

And so I looked at this and said, so how can I do it?

Super subtle.

Like, how can I not be over-the-top and overt with the witches?

So I just gave them these very natural Easter groundedness that when they're the witches, they're not very weird, they're very calm, very collected, and then they just kind of show up throughout the entire play.

With these.

They show up as messengers or as murderers or as these other little things.

And then there is a little magic in the second act, but no spoilers.

You got to come see it to see what I'm talking about.

But but I, I was able to like throwing magic, I would say.

And, in a tasteful way is what I would like to say is tasteful.

But I want the witches.

I love them, and I wanted to make them not the main character, but I wanted to make them more controllers of the story versus just, these weirdos who show up and are just this typical creepy, like, oh, crazy witches, like, out of their minds.

I wanted them to be grounded in real.

Yeah.

Oh, of the witches.

Thanks for asking.

And then how did you how did you go about, like, then finding like, in the, in the casting process.

Like, how did you go about in that case finding or how did you choose the people who are portraying the witches?

Yeah.

Well, for callbacks I did pairings and I just did the very opening scene, the when shall we three meet again in Thunder, lightning or in rain?

And, it was one of those things where I saw the very first pairing I saw was Caden Hale and Vicki, who are are witches, and they spoke.

I heard the mixture of their voices.

Caden is a male, so I wanted that like deep timbre.

And so that immediately is this breaking of the tradition of what we even look as witches like.

And I heard them talk and it was like it was like music.

Like that's really what it came down to.

And that's how I picked them.

And they and Vicki had to jet out to wherever she had to leave.

She couldn't even stay.

So I saw a couple other pairings.

I even saw Jill do a read her Jill's, which read was amazing.

That was really it was fantastic, you know?

So I saw these pairings, but it was just it was one of those things.

It just clicked.

I didn't have to like, think about it.

And it was really cool that I didn't have to because sometimes I'm very indecisive, you know?

Yeah, I feel like with that, like you, the play also has some aspects of like, talking about gender and talking about like the sense of, like, I forgot there's a term, but like the, the universe or the or the story, like writing itself in terms of gender, did that come into like the production in terms of, as you were either casting it or as you're acting it or thinking about it?

In that case, sorry to Jack.

Third one.

because, it it absolutely did in a sense, where I wanted to go in with a completely neutral mindset around gender, because I think what I literally said at auditions and callbacks to the actors, and I probably sounded really hippie when I said it was like, you know, buildings, walls, all these things are man made and so are words.

You know, it was created by people to serve a purpose, but we can interpret them however we want.

So when I went into the casting process, I didn't think of gender.

I thought of who plays these characteristics in a way that's going to tell the story the best.

And that resulted in getting like Aaron Cate, Howard playing Macduff in her act two scene.

When spoiler, she learns about her family getting the ax is just heart wrenching beyond belief and I don't know, I don't know who else could have done it.

She just brings this intensity.

And who cares that she's a woman playing a man, and she has all these lines like, I must feel it as a man and that's so much more powerful hearing it come from a woman, I think.

And it wasn't like I went out saying, I want a woman, Macduff.

Aaron Case showed up and I was like, wow.

She exhibits the energy and the strength and the frickin rage that we need to have this role.

And that just permeated throughout the rest of the casting.

And people kind of fell into place.

That's awesome.

There's also obviously like the precedent of like, you know, talking about like actors, gender flipping and roles within Shakespeare and everything is that is that something that you as, as actors, performers like?

not just specifically with this, but feel like is there as much flexibility with that in modern plays or in other like shows that you've either done or want to do?

I don't know, like, I feel like we talk about it like around Shakespeare a lot, but I don't really feel like we talk about it a lot with like very modern shows.

I feel like those shows are being written now.

Like the best example I can come up with right now is Oh Mary.

Oh on How Do We Right now, which you can have, you know, was started by a non-binary actor, Cole Scola.

And then Betty Gilpin is in it.

And then it was just announced that Titus Burgess is taking over after Betty Gilpin.

So it's like, that is now going to be in the canon as one of these roles that it transcends gender, and it's just about being a Brad.

And I just I'm so obsessed with that, and I can't wait to do a production of that in Rochester at some point, because that would be a dream.

Do you have you also found like this at all?

I don't know, I feel I feel like I want to like specifically ask about your experience.

my only other Shakespearean experience was playing a man.

So I played Duke Orsino in, the Blackfriars production.

All female production, all female, actor production of, 12th Night.

Wow.

And that was back in 2017.

Wow.

Pre-pandemic.

Yeah.

So, I, that's my experience as with Shakespeare is my only other time in the Shakespeare in production was playing, a male character, this time playing a female character.

She has, speeches that talk about being stripped of her femininity so that she can embody what it means to be a man of that time, which was to be ruthless, to be powerful, to be, upward, mobile, upwardly mobile, and even Karl says to me about, bring forth only male children because how how are you are presenting in this moment tells me you could only birth males because of how powerful you are, which is such an antiquated, weird thing to say.

But for the time, I'm Sarah is a popular sentiment.

So, but yeah, to to Karl's point, those new works are happening, and I think we're going to see much more gender fluid, playwriting happening, which is really exciting.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Building off of, antiquated ideals or ideas that are still being perpetrated today, I have to ask, in our current political climate, do.

Oh, wait, you know, I.

Did, what's going on in the United States, or any technically worldwide, like, have any effect on how you were either staging or producing this show about the danger of power corrupting or power and corrupting?

I want to say no, but based on a conversation I literally had with Jill right before this, where it's one of those things where you can't avoid it, you it's in the air, it infects you no matter how you feel about it.

So consciously.

Now, we never once said, oh, I think maybe one time somebody made a joke and said, oh, are we going to put Carl in a blond wig?

You know, in and you know, and make his face orange?

I think that joke was like week one or something like that.

Yeah.

But, but no, it didn't play like forward or, you know, very blatantly.

It was never like, oh, because of this thing, we're going to look at it this way.

You really just kind of looked at the text and, you know, told a story, which I think is pretty cool.

Yeah.

And that's such, that's such the sad thing about like, modernity and the like even the worst of Shakespeare's villains is beautiful and poetic and has these like, high moments of, like, utter grace and gorgeousness.

Our villains are not like that.

They are dumb *** Excuse me.

There.

It's just disgusting.

Sorry.

Ooh, ooh.

We're going right with it.

But, it was interesting pulling it back to the Summerland.

How we were.

It was right before the election.

And the election happened right when we opened.

Oh, wow.

So we were looking at that text going, which was a very political text and about like, oh, women and black people and America and, you know, the the sin of slavery and the pain of our nation and looking at that text and going, okay, depending on what happens, the scene is going to read in a vastly different way.

And then like that first, I think it was like our final tech rehearsal was like the day after the oh yeah, because it was Tuesday than Wednesday than Thursday.

It completely flipped the energy.

And then those final scenes and all of our actors were just crying.

And it was, you know, it was sad, but it was also it was like weirdly more poignant, because of the election results.

It kind of called back to the the human connection, the collaboration.

It it for me, it just showed how important art is in this time.

And I've been saying that a lot to people just arts, the thing we really need to rely on and look at it and, and just use it and have it fill the soul and the with the current darkness and stuff.

It's.

Yeah, I don't know where that came from.

Yeah.

No, no that's true I see.

Yeah.

That's again not to again say like a 1 to 1 or a relation thing about like that's when we were, when we put on anomaly this past year, literally our first day was the day after the election results, literally.

So people like, heard the results and then tried to come to a film festival that evening.

And Phillip, it's exactly the same.

We felt that people still came out because they felt like they wanted community, they wanted human interaction.

They wanted a place where they felt like they could see art.

They could literally like talk about that with other people.

And it was, either a sense of, yes, of course.

Suddenly that film that night became like much more relevant in certain themes than otherwise it wouldn't have been.

But it was also that fact of being like, you have that connection, you have art relating to your life, and you have that that human element of being able to see things with other people and bring that reflection like of your world through a good work.

And this brings us into my next question, which is I feel like one of the reasons we keep staging Shakespeare and like undeniable, he's a good writer.

Like it's a hot topic.

So we'll debate at the end okay.

Great.

Perfect.

So, but that's the thing.

Like, we keep like, 1606, like, so now we keep staging and reading and talking about Shakespeare's works.

Why why do you think that?

They're malleable.

They adjust.

They are timeless.

They are.

I mean, I could go on and on with several different adjectives, but they allow those works, allow us to interpret the time that we're living in through this very old language, which requires you to truly tune in and to be present.

If you're an audience member in a Shakespearean, production, you're usually not there mindlessly.

You are hopefully tuned in because it does require a certain cerebral connection to the people on stage and to the words, so it takes you away for a moment from what's happening and allows you to be fully immersed.

And the language is so rich and so, connected to the human condition that, it allows this kind of grace and our artistry to, you know, permeate the space.

I know I sound really lofty, but I'm really grateful for this opportunity right now because without it, I'd just be sitting at home watching CNN and pulling my hair out.

So.

Yeah.

and that's I think that's our, the, the, the grand balance of like, things like streaming in the internet and like our access to the art, but then also all the noise to get through and finding it.

And that's what I think is so important about local curation, local performance, like local like productions in all ways, is that you're cutting through the noise in a way, like to highlight something, to bring something to people.

Sorry, now I'm going off on left, you know, it's true.

Like like, you were talking there, Jill, and I was like, it's it's a beautiful way to to bring, like, a sense of peace back almost.

It's we're so glued to our phones, you know, short form content is just such, such, such a popular thing nowadays.

And it's hard.

It's hard to sit there for two hours and take in some Shakespeare.

But, like, if you can, if you put in the work, it's so rewarding to to take it in and listen.

And you said timeless.

And I instantly thought of, you know, we're doing Macbeth, which is in Scotland, and they talk about England in Norway, but those are really matter in the grand scope of things.

You could replace those with anything.

It could be Alderaan, it could be, you know, truly.

You know, it's it's own space.

But and it is still though it's 1606, a reflection of what's going on today, whether I wanted it to be that or not.

You know, I wasn't thinking about the election when we put Macbeth together.

It just happened to line up and suddenly, wow, this corrupt leader.

Tragic play is happening in the first few months of this.

And that's its own weird, like, coincidence and thing and.

Yeah, yeah, I do think that that's also like, obviously depending on perspective, you can look at it either like it's extremely maddening that like the same some similar themes still are happening now this far later.

But I also have heard from some people that like it also, in a weird way, can be comforting to be like that.

We as humanity will get through it like we as a species will like keep moving on from it.

Like not without incredible injustice and terror and like awful things happening.

And we should be past some of that point.

But, I think it's interesting, depending on how you look at it, to be like, oh, it's familiar and that's upsetting.

Or it's like it can be like, well, I know I can make it through.

I guess.

I love that, especially because the literal last lines of Macbeth are that it's it's the new king saying, we're going to we're going to be sad, we're going to grieve, but we're going to move on.

We're going to reckon with all these evils that just occurred, and we're going to push forward.

So yeah, that's extremely right I agree.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Good point that.

Yeah that actually the institutional racism is going on.

It's so it's so beautiful and poignant like yeah yeah.

No you hit it on the head.

Sweet like me and Shakespeare.

Right.

Same wavelength.

That's great.

So one the great thing about theater and theater in Rochester, especially, like escapism, is as important as catharsis.

So like you have the, you know, you can go see a really funny musical, really diverting and like, really enjoy yourself and laugh your ass off and you can go see something really, you know, kind of heavy that might hit a little too close to home.

And you're in this dark room with a bunch of people who were probably feeling things similar to what you're feeling, and you can just enjoy.

That is a safe space to feel those feelings.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Do you do you have a sense of like having either performed either Shakespeare or rather Shakespeare?

I don't know, like, do you do you have a favorite?

Do you have a favorite Shakespeare like, oh, I mean, it can be Macbeth.

That's something.

But, you know, I just figured I'd ask some.

I mean, my favorite of his plays of all time.

And this will continue until my last breath is Richard the second.

It's it's so beautiful.

but I think, I think one of my favorite ones that we've done, like, as a group and again, this was through RCP, but with the same sort of, you know, it was Brody, it was Phil, it was, Erin, Kate.

And, you know, our, our sort of little team, was Anthony Cleopatra I and that was the Shakespeare.

Shakespeare in the Park.

2022 who?

I think so, yeah.

And that was I just loved that.

Like, that was something I've directed that I wanted to go see as a audience member and was like, sat there and enjoyed it every single time I watched it.

But that was that's for me currently.

Macbeth, that's my current favorite.

Yeah, I, I think I, I've actually never thought of it.

I think mine might be Macbeth and I think it's because of this process for sure.

Like I had an affinity for it before this, this great production.

You can go find it on YouTube, from the globe in like 2014 and Billy Boyd plays a character in it, and it's this it's this very beautiful production that really leans into the Scottish nature of it, with some bagpipes and stuff, and that just made me.

It's a gorgeous production, and I do like and I do love Macbeth, but I don't know, I don't know, you ask me next week I'll have a different answer, but right now it's Macbeth and, you mentioned like, doing, it in the, in the park.

And also earlier you mentioned, like, talking about, like, the company theater doing like maybe site specifics or things outside of a theater.

like you've talked a little bit about what's coming up in this season, but is that kind of a that sense of, either site specific or outdoors or.

I don't know, is that something that you think might still come back at some point here?

That would be really cool.

I know I think the, the dream of us is to have our own space, but one of the things that we would, I think, would be looking for when we get to that place to find our own space, would be at least a room that's malleable enough that, like, each show is set up completely differently.

So like the, you know, something where the chairs are movable or we have, like, risers that move or something.

So.

Oh, this one, this show is three quarter round.

This show's proscenium, this one's promenade.

This one's fully in the round that each show.

The audience will come in and think like, is this the same?

This is the same theater, where there's no limit to the creativity, to the design.

You can really just do what you want, I love that, yeah.

And just explore like in a, in basically a cement cube cuz.

But that would be cool to do, do something like what was the original conceit.

Yeah.

For the company theater where it's like around the town or, you know, in different places, there are so many cool, interesting locations and like locales in Rochester, like the Saint Joseph's, that like, kind of like burnt out.

Oh, yeah.

old church, there, the the lilac arches.

So, like, you could have one Shakespeare show going on in the huge theater in the park and then have another, like, smaller one going on at the lilac arches.

I don't know, there's endless possibilities in this town.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And I think and you did a really cool photo shoot also for this production also somewhere that was my favorite place in Rochester.

I love the Sunken Gardens.

That's where I proposed to my fiancé.

That's it's I love that place so much.

It's a it's a beautiful spot.

And yeah, I think it would be totally worth it to do like a, you could do a little play down in there, have the audience up top, do like a Coliseum type thing.

I think I think we need a Rochester Renaissance gang.

I think that's what we need.

I, I, so as we're, as we're getting down to the end, I realize we haven't actually said what are the dates of the that actually, where can people find out more information on it?

Everyone looked at me.

okay.

Well, we run until February 16th.

that is our closing show.

or you can go online at the company theater rock.org.

our show's run.

It's Thursdays through Sundays.

the evening shows are 730.

The matinees on Sundays are at 5 p.m. because, like we said, we kind of have to battle the elements and and not have the sun in our shows.

We tried it before, you know, with our 2 p.m. matinees, and it had varying effect.

Romeo and Juliet was kind of cool, but it didn't really work for Keller.

Hot Tin Roof yeah.

Does that did I say all of that?

I think so you get a but you gave a website.

Yeah, we've seen it two times.

Yeah.

We run until the 16th and we're we're there.

We're at the Temple Theater.

You can also just come to our office.

You don't have to order your order.

Liberty pole way 50.

Liberty pole way.

That's where we are.

Thank you.

Film.

Yeah.

Where are we?

Right in downtown Rochester.

Exactly.

and I also then should plug if you would like additional Macbeth beyond that.

please do, come see, the filmed on stage screening of the Donmar Warehouse production at the Little Theater on February 9th and 16th as well.

thank you so much to the three of you for being here.

I really, really appreciate it.

This was awesome.

thank you to, Carl De Bono.

thank you to Philip Dietrich.

Thank you to Jill written jr. please go see the company theater's production of Macbeth.

I'm super looking forward to seeing it.

yeah.

Can't wait.

Thank you for being so.

Thank you so much.

And.

I.

Hope.

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