From WXXI news this is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection to Sara was made in July when doctor Dawn Meza Soufleris, began her tenure as the eighth president of SUNY Brockport.

Recently, you might remember, we welcomed the new president of Nazareth University.

Now we welcome the leader of a state school.

And this is a chance to understand how Doctor Mesa's supplier sees both her mission and the mission of higher education in general.

The role of public education and public school state schools.

We've heard a lot about enrollment cliffs.

We've seen some higher ed institutions fold in recent years, some smaller institutions.

So what is next for SUNY Brockport?

We're going to talk about a range of issues, including what colleges and universities are teaching how to prepare students for the future.

Her vision for SUNY Brockport and more.

And Rochester is a very familiar place for Doctor Mesa to flourish.

She comes from a Montclair State University, but before that, LaSalle for five years, before that, RIT for 25 and Brockport, of course, you know very, very well.

Welcome to the program.

Oh, thank you for having me.

I mean, I really appreciate it.

I'm very excited to be back in the Rochester area.

So when did you first arrive in the Rochester area?

So my gosh, very long time ago, in 1991, I, arrived in the Rochester area to work at RIT.

I was there for 25 years, worked a variety of different roles at the university, mostly in student affairs, and then had the opportunity to go and work at LaSalle University as a vice president, and then, to Montclair State University as a vice president.

And, this has been a wonderful opportunity to come back to the community, has been actually worked at SUNY Brockport for 18 years.

So Brockport has been part of our life for a very long time, raised our children in Rochester.

So this is like a full circle moment to be able to come back and be part of the Brockport community.

And where did you go to school?

I went to Binghamton, so I am a three time SUNY grad.

So I was one of those first generation students that the only way I could go to college was to go through the SUNY system.

And, and I really wanted to go away to school.

So that Binghamton became that place for me to go.

And I put myself through school.

My parents were supportive, but my dad did not have a high school.

Degree.

He didn't got a GED later in life.

My mom was a hairdresser, and, while they were very supportive, there was not the funds to do that.

So SUNY really was the way that I could go to school.

And so I ended up being a three time grad of my undergrad graduate and, PhD through the SUNY system.

Do you remember what you paid per year to go to SUNY to go to Binghamton?

So somebody asked me recently, and I think it was in the $3,000 mark, and I had tap and some other types of financial aid in order to do it, but I think my father went out on a small payment plan that was less than $100 a month with loans and everything else, and he paid that to a point, but then I had to pay it.

But it was in the $3,000 range in today's dollars, that's probably 7 or 8 K, something like that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And SUNY Brockport right now the sticker price is around 29.

Is that right at 26 5.65?

If you're living on campus.

And so our our tuition.

So all of the SUNY tuitions for the four year institutions are it just under $7,100.

Okay.

So in in your mind as someone who went to a SUNY, a proud SUNY grad, multi SUNY grad, yes.

You know, so for you, $3,000 at the time, that still is a lot of money.

26 five is is not equivalent to that.

It's a lot more than that.

How did we get there and is that affordable for for students?

Because I think a lot of university presidents tell me, hey, look, very few of our kids play pay full, full freight.

So let's talk about that.

Sure.

Absolutely.

So listen, if you look at what it costs to go to school, first of all, what a cost per student to put, to have a student go through 4 or 5 years to get their undergraduate degree, it's very expensive to do that.

One of the great things about being part of the SUNY system is that the affordability factor is the number one driver for the SUNY system is making sure that there is education that's available at an affordable, accessible price with good outcomes within a 30 mile radius of any New York resident.

And so when you think about what private institutions, even if they're not, if they're saying that students are not paying the full price and not there is a sticker price, and then there's what people really pay.

When you think about the fact that you can get an incredible, SUNY experience, a four year degree and beyond for $7,000.

Plus, if you are going to live on campus room and board, that's an unbelievable deal.

When you think about and compare to other institutions, both within the state and both nationally.

I just came from the new Jersey state system, where there is not a system, there's Jersey state institutions, but everybody determines what their cost is.

And the in-state tuition for most of the new Jersey state schools is 16 to $18,000 a year in state.

So when you compare that to the SUNY system, it's an incredible opportunity that we offer our students.

Okay, how many students get financial aid?

So the vast majority of our students get some type of financial aid, whether it is Pell, which is coming obviously from the federal government or it is through scholarships.

And so the majority of our students get some kind of scholarship based upon need or based upon their academic abilities to go to school.

And we're very proud of that.

I think this past year we have given, oh my gosh, $7 million in institutional scholarships for students to come to Brockport.

Do you think it's important that the public understand that the the sticker, private and public are not always what students, but I mean, when we had your counterpart from Nazareth University on this program, we talked about the fact that Nazareth is now over $60,000 annually on the sticker.

But she said, look, nobody on campus is paying for full price.

And the average students paying around 42.

So a lot of money, it's not 60.

First of all, is that is that an important distinction do you think the public should understand?

I think people need to understand what's the return on investment, right?

I mean, because even if you're not paying what the sticker price is, it still matters how much you're paying.

Right?

And for families and students, whether you know, families have the assets or they don't, I mean, most people are talking about affordable education at this point.

I think it's important to know that there are private institutions at this point that are discounting up to 62%.

I actually have worked in private education and worked in enrollment for a while when I was at LaSalle University.

And at that point, and this was like six and a half years ago, we were discounting at a 54% rate.

It's now up for some of these private institutions to 62%.

That's, that's that's people need to understand that.

And when you're going through the SUNY system and state education, that is regulated, like the New York State system is, the affordability factor can't be overlooked.

Yeah.

So again, so the sticker versus what the average student pays at your institution, give us those two numbers.

Again the sticker is what the average student pays.

What I can't tell you off the top of my head with the average amount is.

But every nearly every student gets some kind of financial aid or scholarship, which reduces that number significantly.

So I would say again, depends on if a student's commuting, if our students are living on campus from a student from New York State is paying what sticker sticker price in New York is 26, about 26,000 2626 five.

And then we are getting typically getting some kind of a break.

Yeah, absolutely.

They are getting some kind of scholarships, but not at a discount rate that the private institutions have had to do.

Do you feel like it's a better value than private schools?

Now, I have to tell you that I have some bias here, because I am a three time SUNY grad and I have to go.

But you've worked at both.

I have worked at both.

And I have to say that being back in state education, particularly when I was at Montclair and now being at at at Brockport, I can't imagine why people don't look at private eye public education is their first option.

You think they should look public first?

I do think they should look at public first.

Speaking of the quality of education, that you get the opportunity to not be in the debt and that that gives you that launchpad when you graduate to not be in debt to either.

If you're going to go to graduate school, are you going to go right into the workforce to not have that debt ratio and be able to afford to live live on your own, be able to be in a work in a city or a community that you want to work in.

I think that's incredibly important.

Having worked in both private and public, I wanted to ask you if you think there's going to be a migration more toward public just because that the sticker is so much higher than it used to be, but the actual cost is so much higher than it used to be.

It has not kept pace with inflation.

We know that.

And at some point you wonder if there's a cap on what the average family or student will pay, even for private education, which ostensibly has a big return when the degree comes.

Do you think there will be a migration more in the in favor of public schools?

I do, I think it's going to be completely about the affordability, the access, the outcomes.

Because if you look at state education and what the outcomes are, the outcomes are very strong.

Retention is strong for many public institutions and and families and students are talking about return on investment.

And if I am investing X amount of dollars in my education or my child's education, what's that return on investment?

And I think public education has been shown that there's an incredible return on investment, particularly as we are in a society right now where things are not affordable.

And if there's the option for a student to go private or to go public, I think more and more families and students are going to lean to the public.

A phrase you used earlier this hours.

You want families to know that you're going to come here and you're going to leave, and you're going to have good outcomes.

What are good outcomes for your graduate?

I think good outcomes are one graduation rates retention, but also that for job right for students that they know that we are getting them ready at Brockport to be out in the workforce or to go to graduate school.

Of that is what their plan is.

But we know that right now we have great, great connections in the Rochester community.

We have strong connections, even in the Buffalo community.

We have many of our students going out doing internships, externships, assistantships.

We have many folks coming from the community into teach classes and guest lectures, very strong alumni network.

So when a student is coming to Brockport, when they graduate, they are generally very successful in going into the workforce or again, going to graduate school of that's what their their path is.

That's something we're very proud of.

And we talk a lot about and, and I'm sure people have seen some of the ad work that we do is that we highlight student success stories.

And if you look at some of the success stories that have come out of Brockport, it makes a lot of sense for families to choose to.

And the students who choose to come to our community.

Do you have a number for, you know, the first 12 months out of school employment rate for your graduates?

We're actually putting those numbers together right now because they're due.

And so I don't have that number.

Right on breaking news right here.

I'm breaking news because I got to make sure it's not due to October.

So we want to make sure that it's all accurate.

But the vast majority of our students, over 50%, are walking into jobs because we are getting them placed even before they graduate, or they're having internships where the folks that they've worked for are saying, when you're done, we're going to where we want to hire you.

I don't think I could imagine any university president coming on the show and saying, we're really not placing our students well, like we're really struggling.

No one's getting jobs.

So and I'm not casting doubt on what you're saying.

Oh, that's okay.

I want to ask, though, in the last five years in particular, we've seen more than I've ever seen discussion and some statistical analysis of recent graduates struggling to find jobs in their fields.

I mean, I'm talking general across this country.

It's it's been a would you agree that it's been a hard five, seven years for, oh, 100%?

I mean, it's certainly since Covid, we have seen a significant struggle from all students nationally to find jobs.

What is fueling that?

Why is it harder?

I think the job market changed after Covid.

We've got, things that have become more automated.

We have people that are not moving in their fields the way they used to kind of come and go where there is not the vacancies.

I think that there's been many companies that have downsized or closed because they could not they couldn't make up what they lost during Covid time.

I think there have been some changes in industry.

So we think about computer science, right.

And so for many, many years, computer science was a degree to get families were saying, you know, you want to be a computer science major.

And those students were generally placed in jobs even before they graduated.

That's not the case.

If you look at computer science majors from most institutions now coming out with bachelor's degrees, they're struggling to find jobs because their their programs potentially didn't keep up with technology, or that companies now are looking for more AI, they're looking for more data analysis.

They're not looking just necessarily just for, you know, computer science majors.

And so I think some of it is on higher ed, and I think some of it is just industry has changed since Covid.

I think the the desire of the public to understand if AI is going to take jobs away is a very murky picture.

For the moment.

It is for a number of reasons.

Number one, we haven't seen a job apocalypse like some thought we would see by 2027.

Whatever.

There's all kinds of different predictions out there.

We're not seeing an apocalypse of that.

We have seen some reports of pretty high profile companies at times downsizing because AI's are adapting to do tasks that entry level workers or others could do.

And the expectation is that we will see more.

Although you talk to people in tech and that there's there's pushback, there's people saying no horse and buggy replaced by the car.

Everyone got jobs.

I mean, I remain a skeptic that as AI advances, human employment will not be tremendously disrupted.

I don't know if that's a year or 3 or 5 away or whatever it is.

What what do you expect?

And I ask, because your your main goal that you're talking about is preparing students for employment.

So how much you think it's going to affect their prospects?

I don't necessarily think it's going to be a negative impact on prospects.

I think that there is going to be different needs in the workforce that college universities are going to have to meet.

So if you think about AI, for instance, there are going to need to be people feeding information into AI.

There's going to need to be, humanities majors, writers, critical thinkers.

You're going to need as companies are are expanding, you're going to need the folks that are going to be doing the infrastructure.

You're going to need the accountants, and you're going to need the human resource people, and you're going to need all of those things.

So I don't think so.

I'm going to I'm I feel pretty positive about what's going to happen with AI.

I think it needs going to need to be have some regulation.

And that's obviously conversations that are happening in the on the federal level.

But I, I actually think it's going to be it's going to have a different type of impact on what companies are looking for with AI.

I don't think it's going to be I think jobs will change, but I don't think necessarily that means that we're going to have losses of jobs.

I think jobs will look differently because of AI.

And so let's talk a little bit about what Brockport does offer students.

Stephen Webster writes in to say, as an alumnus of SUNY Brockport, I'm dismayed by how much the colleges cut things like liberal arts, humanities and languages.

Could the new president speak to this?

So being in my eighth week, and still trying to figure all of this out.

So every day has been a new adventure, I will tell you that I actually don't believe that there have been great cuts from Brockport.

In fact, I think there's been strengthening of that.

One of the conversations that we have pretty frequently, at least in the eight weeks that I've been there, is that we believe in a holistic education.

So, yes, we have certain majors that I think, you know, are very popular with students at the moment.

Health care, kinesiology, sports management, physical education, the arts, all of those are very popular within Brockport.

But there's a very strong feeling within the university that if we're going to provide a holistic education and provide opportunities for students to be ready for a modern and nimble workforce that the humanities, the arts, the social sciences, the liberal arts are a key piece to that.

So we have no plans on and diminishing that.

In fact, one of the things that that our academic affairs area is looking at is how do we partner certain departments that may not always work together?

So, for instance, thinking about the humanities and computer science and how do we create some opportunities for students to balance that?

By having the humanities experience the critical thinking, the reading, the writing, but also with some technology, because our perspective is we have to ready these students for a nimble workforce that is ever changing.

I mean, it's changing what we thought five years ago is very different than what's happening in the workforce today.

So my perspective and being there for eight weeks is that we're not doing that.

In fact, we're trying to figure out ways to enhance liberal arts and humanities coupling with what are the needs in the workforce.

Do you think cutting liberal arts humanities language would be a mistake?

I do, I do, but here's a caveat for me as, as a, university leader is that when we continue those programs, we have to look at to make sure that those programs are nimble, they're cutting edge, and that they are bringing our students at a skill level and a critical thinking level, that they're going to go out into the workforce and be able to use those skills, articulate those skills, and do the jobs that the workforce needs them to do.

And one of the criticisms of how education is playing out, K through 12 and in higher ed is that critical thinking is under threat with AI, that students are outsourcing a lot of their research work, they're writing work term papers, things that were traditional for decades, and that K through 12 higher ed are rethinking.

How do you assess, how do you test?

How do you demonstrate students are learning?

How do you make sure they're actually learning?

Are you dealing with that?

What are you doing?

We are.

So we have a task force on campus that is talking about that.

And there's a huge initiative within SUNY that is looking at AI, how it's going to be used in the classroom.

I think that the mindset for us, and certainly within the SUNY system, is that we can't say no, we can't say we're just not going to we're not going to accept AI in the classrooms.

We're not going to accept AI as part of the curriculum.

I think we have to embrace it because again, I go back to the nimbleness piece, is that we have to have students that are using it ethically that can critically think, but are using it to enhance whatever path they're going to be on for their career.

Because we do see ourselves as having a workforce mindset, to have students be able to leave us and go get jobs.

And so there's a task force, both again within the university and within the SUNY system that is looking at how do we incorporate it ethically and how do we maintain that critical thinking that teaching students how to use it ethically, but also making sure that they're not losing those critical thinking skills?

We don't have the perfect answer yet, and I don't think the perfect answer is out there, because most institutions are struggling to figure this out.

I try to stay very up on what other institutions are doing, both within the state but also nationally and there.

It's not an institution that isn't struggling to figure out what's that balance.

And we're right in there trying to figure out what's going to be the balance for Brockport.

That's going to be enhance the experience for our students.

I definitely understand the idea that you don't want your graduates to go in the world and go, wait a second, I have never used it right.

I get that, but they're also young adults.

They're probably already using it in their personal lives.

They're probably very familiar with it in ways that I'm not familiar with it.

Why not say in the walls of this classroom or on this campus?

Your educational experience will not use that because of the risk of you not being able to do the work yourself.

You'll learn AI on your own time, and you should.

But when it comes to education, it's AI free.

No, I'm not a fan of that because I don't think that's realistic.

I really do not believe that's realistic.

In this day and age.

I think there are.

And listen, our faculty can make some decisions.

They have academic freedom to say, you know what, you can't use that in my classroom.

But as a university, I think that we are doing a disservice to our students if we don't embrace it and teach our students how to use it ethically.

I don't think that's realistic, and I think any campus that is doing that, you know, God bless.

But I don't believe that that's how we we get our students ready for the real world.

So let me maybe just ask then kind of a parallel question, do you think we can continue to graduate students into the real world?

Who are thinking at a very high level, who have not simply learned to use technology to outsource a lot of the hard work?

Do you think that that's still possible across campuses across the country?

I do think it is still possible.

And a part of it for me that I think helps enhance, like the critical thinking using the technology appropriately, using it ethically, but it's also about the experiential learning piece that that no longer can we just send a student out without having experiences, whether it's using AI or just doing things in the field that they want to do.

So one of the things that we are building very strongly, and it's part of the larger SUNY mission, is that experiential education that we not only students, are learning in the classroom and learning in labs and having, you know, those classroom and, and intellectual research opportunities.

But it's also then going to the practical it is going out and having an internship assistantship externship for every student.

And that's one of our goals, is at some point that every single student will have some kind of internship that is related to what they may want to do or related to the field of choice, so they can walk out saying, not only that, I have this great classroom experience.

I had this great undergraduate research opportunity.

I've worked with this wonderful faculty.

I've grown holistically as a person, but also I have been able to go out and work and try and hone my skills so that I can walk into employment after college.

Let me grab a phone call from Philip in Canandaigua.

I think he's a SUNY, a SUNY grad.

Yes.

That's correct.

But are you able to.

Yeah, I can hear you.

Just long as you're safe.

Be careful.

Go ahead.

Yeah, I am, yeah, I'm both a SUNY Brockport grad.

And, yes.

Graduate.

Okay.

And I wanted to share with you I, set some options for, you know, future students and, maybe a point to reduce that is, I served in the armed forces and my GI Bill, basically took care of my my whole tuition.

Another option is, I know SUNY Brockport has a rocky program.

I know it's not for everyone.

That is another way.

That way, a student is not encouraged that in that service, you know, that education of being in the military is huge.

But I want to praise SUNY Brockport.

What they do and and what I learned in my internships.

So, Philip, thank you.

Thank you for your service.

And, kind of got a knowing smile and nod when you mentioned ROTC.

So floor is yours.

What do you what do you want to say about that?

ROTC is a wonderful opportunity for many students.

As the caller said, it is not necessarily for everyone, but it is a wonderful opportunity not only to serve your country and also get all the skills and discipline and other things that, that being in the armed forces can provide.

But the tuition benefit and the assistance there is incredible.

And again, I can I talk about myself being a SUNY grad and have the only option for me, for some of our students, the only option is to do that.

And they do that very proudly that they serve their country, but also our college students.

And we have a wonderful group of students.

I just spent some time with them that SUNY Chancellor came and visited and wanted to come and talk to some of our, our military affiliated students.

And so we had a nice roundtable with, Chancellor King and the stories that the students shared about their service, as well as being college students and about and, again, I'll sing the praises of Brockport.

That how that's balanced by a supportive environment on the campus and and having folks at the institution that are focused on those students to give them support in military science, and just about all of the other things that go along with being in ROTC.

It was really incredible to hear that.

And I've been very lucky that I've worked on a number of campuses where there have been strong Rozzi programs and reservist programs, and it's an incredible option for students.

My father was, was a marine and so was always raised with such, you know, a sense of gratitude for those who do military service.

And when you can combine that with a college education, it's a fabulous option.

Philip, thank you for the phone call.

It's 844295 talk if you want to join the program.

844295825526365.

If you call from Rochester 2639994, email the program Connections at WXXI.

Or you can join the chat if you're watching on the Sky news YouTube channel.

My guest is doctor Dawn Meza Soufleris, who's the president of SUNY Brockport, just started in July.

It's been 25 years at RIT, five years at LaSalle, five at Montclair State, and now back to be the president in Rochester of SUNY Brockport.

And we're talking to doctor Mason first about how she sees the state of higher ed and the role of state schools like the SUNY program.

So let's take this only break.

We're going to come right back.

We'll share more of your feedback.

Talking higher ed with doctor Dawn Meza Soufleris.

Coming up in our second hour and a special rebroadcast during Books Week, we're talking to author Steve Jordan about the old House handbook.

Steve Jordan joined us to talk about how homeowners can better live in these important or historic spaces.

If you live in an older house or something that you just worried is a little too delicate for a basic remodel job, new windows, whatever you need.

Steve Jordan, great conversation.

Coming up next, our.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson Auto Group.

Believing an informed public makes for a stronger community.

Proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson focused on the news, issues and trends that shape the lives of listeners in the Rochester and Finger Lakes regions.

Bob Johnson Auto group.com.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Tomorrow on the program.

We're talking to a couple of Regents, and we're talking about the ongoing debate about whether there should have been a, an elimination of Regents diplomas and whether that's appropriate.

What other states are doing.

You know, we saw this debate carry out with with regents.

So let me just ask you, you know, from the higher ed perspective, what do you make of this decision or this debate about should we should we not have Regents diplomas anymore?

Do we still need that?

What do you think?

You know, it's an interesting conversation.

And I will have to say, I think about it through the parents eyes.

I have three children that that raised in Rochester and were, you know, had Regents diplomas, honestly didn't end up doing AP exams and all of that.

And one of the things that I noticed as a parent and an educator, right?

So I've been an educator for 37 years, was it was very interesting to watch my, my children go through school.

And while they were learning the curriculum and doing all the things that they needed to in the classroom, and there was sort of a halt in learning in order to prepare for the Regents.

And I watched that with three children and wondered, what is this?

Is this really going to make a difference in their preparation to go to college or into the workforce?

My three children went into college, but I had many friends and colleagues where their children went into the trades, went right into the workforce because they went into the military.

And so that pressure of of teachers having to, in essence, sort of stop what they were doing in the classroom to suddenly then just focus on getting students prepped for the Regent.

Is that really did that really benefit students?

And so I actually look at this, this, this change now, and I'm actually in favor of it.

I'm sure there will be folks that will say, no, we need to have those kinds of things.

I saw it as actually more of a disruption for the learning that my child, my children were in tracks to go to college, but the stopping of the teaching and the experience and the learning to prep for a Regents exam, I don't necessarily think there was retention of information.

I don't necessarily think that was a good use of time for the teachers or for the students.

So I actually am in favor of it.

And maybe a separate question related to how students are thinking about their next steps, especially since Covid, there was this debate about whether students should take, for example, the S.A.T., and then there was this groundswell of what are we going to see higher ed institutions say, we're not even going to take at it.

We're not going to consider that anymore.

And now that seems to be swinging back in favor of of utilizing SAT scores.

And I wonder what you would tell students who might be thinking, what should I be taking in?

What should I be doing?

How much emphasis should I put on this?

What do you think?

I think it's very student dependent.

It may be a great opportunity for some students who are wonderful test takers, who are fine with pressure like that, who feel like, you know what, if I take the SATs or the acts, this will help me get into the school that I want to go, because I think I'll do well and I want to submit them, then I'd say take it.

But for students who maybe test taking is not their strong suit, but they have been a solid student in high school, and their GPA shows that I don't necessarily think that they should force be forced to take the SATs.

Now, was obviously school dependent, right?

I mean, college universities across the country are making all kinds of decisions.

A lot of the research shows us that the high school GPA has more relevancy than what the SAT score is in terms of persistence to graduation, and so I think I like the test optional piece, because I think students who feel like it can enhance their portfolio to get into college.

It's a great thing to do for other students that that's not for them and that's not their learning style, but they've done well in high school or done well enough to go to the school of their choice.

I don't think they should be forced to take that.

If I were an admissions, I wouldn't even look at a student's essay in the age of I unless I could also interview them about it directly.

Has that changed?

It's interesting, and that's a conversation that's happening through enrollment nationally.

Are these essays are they in the world of AI?

Are they really any indicator?

Sometimes in those they do tell us some things about students that we can help them with.

So I'll give you an example.

A student or whether it's AI written or it's student written, you hear rumors that parents write these things or they have professional people writing them.

There are on occasion known that students will share something in their personal statements that are part of their applications, that indicate they may need extra support, whether that's in mental health, whether that's because of a physical disability, whether it's, you know, whatever it may be, that when colleges and universities see that they're able to help set those students up right away for some extra assistance or support, or let them know about the resources that are available on their campus.

So I think they do have value.

Do I think that in the age of AI, are they the be all and end all?

Probably not.

But they can provide some additional information that may help us student transition, that we can provide them the resources that they need.

All right.

Let me grab a phone call.

This is Hoover in Pittsford.

Hey, Hoover, go ahead.

Hey, interesting program.

She's certainly got all the, verbiage that, you'd want at a high academic level, but let me let me ask you and ask her, to comment, on this.

One of the things, one of the key things that, would determine the success of a university president and a university itself would be how graduates, make out in the job market and the career, you know, are they making, interesting money or are they well below the pay scale?

Are they doing research that's, dynamic for the, the nation in their, their their specialty or what?

So, one of the most important things for me is, working in the industry that they're majoring in, and that is internships.

I worked at Monroe County for over 15 years, and then I worked at Cornell for over 15 years as an administrator in both organizations.

And both times I had a number of interns.

At one time, I knew a professor at Brockport who had who sent me three different, students who were, I think, juniors, if I recall, two of them were outstanding.

One became an attorney, went to law school.

He was very successful.

He, I think he was a public administrator, administration major.

But anyway, he was successful.

I had a woman pretty much the same scenario.

She came to our organization, she did very well.

And then she ended up working in government for a long time.

But I had another kid who was a disaster.

He didn't show up on time.

He didn't do anything.

I told them, I finally said after about six weeks, I said, don't give me one more week, otherwise I don't come in.

And, I had some kids at Cornell who I'm still friends with after years, and they, were outstanding.

All went to, graduate school from undergrad, and they got doctorates and what their major was.

So here's my point is, if you're going to run an organization, higher education organization, you've got to make sure that people that go through it and graduate are going to be successful.

And what they wanted to do, and if they're not, you're not doing your job.

So tell me, give me your response to that, please.

Okay.

Thank you.

Hoover.

Yeah, absolutely.

Hoover I don't disagree with you.

Right?

I mean, I think that this is we talk about return on investment.

These students and their families quite often are are investing in education with the idea that students are going to leave and be able to, again, either go into the workforce and do better than, high school graduates, or they're going to go into to graduate school into a, into another profession, a different profession.

And so we know nationally across the country that students who graduate with an undergraduate degree in their in their salary trajectory are going to make about 30% more than a high school graduate.

It will depend on the field, right?

It depends on the field, depends on the market that they live in.

It depends on what they want to do.

And so we also know that that, there is now some expectation that institutions are very open with that and publish that and show here's what our graduates do.

In fact, I mentioned that report that will come out in October, that with the deadline that we have to meet, we have to show that information.

We have to show that our students are this percentage are, you know, are in their field or related field.

And and trying to get salary information from graduates is difficult in any career design career services person who does a lot of that work for an institution will tell you sometimes that is like herding feral cats to get that information.

But I think it is really important, and I agree with you that that is that should be something that all institutions are graded upon because we can't this is not the day and age, sadly, that you go to college just to go to college.

Most students are going to college for jobs, for doing the workforce and maybe to to do as well, or even better than their families have done, especially first generation students.

I'm a first generation college graduate and the whole point for me was to try and do better than my family did, provide for my own children, and provide for my own family one and a half and then help my family, which I did.

I did end up helping my family, because I was a higher wage earner than my my parents.

And so Hoover, I don't disagree with you at all.

And I do think it's a job of a president and university to ensure that that's our obligation to students.

Hoover.

Thank you for the phone call.

I want to listen to a pretty consistent conservative critique of higher education.

And in some ways, it's not just this particular sound, but we're gonna listen to this not just from social conservatives, but from organizations that are focused on free expression, tolerance for different ideas.

So we're going to listen to a comment made by Tim Urban.

He's a writer, a public intellectual, an author.

He was a guest on a conservative podcast last year hosted by Joe Lansdale.

And in this clip, urban is talking about how he sees the last decade of American public life generally, especially on higher ed campuses.

So you go back ten years, you were at LaSalle for five of those years, which is where's LaSalle?

Philadelphia.

Oh, of course, a private, educated private institution there.

Then you go to Montclair State, new Jersey for five years.

So the last decade, what urban is arguing here is we have seen a shift away from a lot of the values that cherished institutions used to hold, no matter who was complaining or attacking.

I want to listen to that.

Let's listen.

If you're the faculty in the admin at a place like and the donors are part of a place like Harvard, you know, you walk in, you see that Veritas stone plaque, you know, it's just like if you're a priest and you walk into a church and see the cross, it's a reminder of what you're hearing.

Well, you know, the loss of this place when you walk into Harvard, you know, your job is to uphold this, that plaque.

And what happens is you see these challenges to it, where someone would say, we need to fire this professor because they disagree with the common, you know, the fad today, that thing that we're all, you know, offended by.

This week.

They said it.

Let's get them out.

And that can be, that can be a tenured professor, even, you know, this is, again, totally violating the purpose of tenure.

And then the, the, the administrators, the administrators and the rest of the faculty kind of have a moment of truth because they say, we can either say, no Veritas.

We stand up for the principles here.

No, this person is allowed to say different things and disagree with you, even if they're offensive.

But that's that's part of finding truth is we have a wide range of views or they say, yeah, let's fire them because they're scared and they don't be the next target.

And you can just see this moment of truth is key moment and one after the other, whether it's The New York Times or Harvard or, you know, American Medical Association, they just all they all gave in it all gave it.

Do you think that's an accurate critique of higher ed?

In the last decade?

I think higher ed has struggled with this issue.

Right.

I think it has been a it's not a surprise, right, that this has been an issue of that balance.

Right?

You have academic freedom, which is very, very critical to any institution, right.

For faculty to be able to speak freely, Jupiter, teach, be able to look at research, be able to do all those things in a classroom that students have the opportunity for freedom of speech, right, and to have their own beliefs.

And and then you've got the other, I call the forces, right?

The other forces, the, the the cultural forces.

You have the federal government forces, you know, and not just with this current administration, but administrations, even prior.

And and it has come to a head a little bit on college campuses to figure out where's that balance?

Where is that speaking truth, and when is when someone speaks their truth and it offends somebody else?

Where is that line?

Or just teaches about an idea or just teaches about an idea?

And and my perspective is that in order to learn and to to learn effectively, you need to see all sides.

And there needs to be the opportunity to discuss all sides.

And that should be able to be done without animosity and without conflict.

Difficult conversations, difficult topics should be able to be talked about on college campuses, and there needs to be respect for differences of opinion and differences and philosophy.

And we're at a career, I think.

I think higher ed personal opinion.

I think higher ed is at a critical juncture now where we need to determine where is that line.

Has there been an imbalance in the last decade?

I think there has been.

I think the pendulum has swung.

I think we need to get back to that middle.

I mean, I think historically I'm a sociologist.

So I've seen this, you know, with the evolution of culture and, and community where pendulum swing way far one way, then they swing way far the other way.

And at some point they come back to balance for some homeostasis.

I think we'll get there.

But I do think that the pendulum has swung on both sides pretty dramatically.

And we have to find our center.

We have to find the ability to talk about difficult things, be able to have faculty have academic freedom with a balance of students, faculty, staff, community, feeling comfortable on campuses where you can have difficult dialog.

And it's not something that is seen as disrespectful if it's done the right way.

It's not disrespectful, it's learning.

A couple of things related to this, not to overgeneralize, but do you think the last decade hire at has lost some credibility in conservative circles because of that?

I do I mean, I do I think again that those that pendulum has swung significantly on both sides and that what we need to get back to are the days where we can have dialog across difference.

Okay.

Because I think that will actually help this generation, help our all, our, our entire world to be able to have real conversation without worrying that it's way too far on one side or the other side.

And then there's that difficult moment where you go, we don't see eye to eye.

It's okay not to see eye to eye.

It's about having the conversation and learning and then coming up with solution, or even to say we may differ in ideology, we may differ politically, we may differ in how we see something.

But what's our common ground?

Where's the humanity?

Tom writes in to ask, perhaps related is tenure a dated practice in higher education?

That's a difficult one that I'm going to, say that I'm on the fence.

I am a tenured faculty member at Brockport.

I believe in tenure.

However, I also believe that we have to continually with our faculty.

And I would say this for staff, too, is that we continually have to get better, hone our skills, making sure we're staying updated on our research that there's boundaries, in terms of professional behavior.

So I, I support tenure, but I think we might have to redefine what that is and higher education to meet the current times.

And then maybe related is more of a conversation about mental health on campuses.

And some of the cynics say there's way too much emphasis on this, that students are too fragile, etc.

others are saying, you know, look, having these services more widely available can be good for everybody.

So how do you see the question of mental health on campus?

I think it's a critical piece for student success.

If a student, you know, there is some basic things.

And Maslow's hierarchy of need is one of the the theories we go back to in higher education, that if a student are any human but a particularly for a student, does not have food, clothing, shelter and a feeling of psychological safety, they are not going to persist in college, they are not going to get to graduation.

And so is there too much emphasis on it?

No.

I think we have a generation that is asking for help.

A generation, particularly Gen Z and generational theory is one of my areas that I have a high interest in sociologically, for me, this is a generation that is saying we need help in figuring this all out, and we want it.

We want it.

They want to talk about that, and they ask for help far more than my generation.

Sure.

No question.

I mean, the language of mental health is much more common in the in the discourse.

But I think the critics would say, look, you just said that things got out of balance in the last ten years.

And psychological safety may be a concept of just teaching resilience as opposed to coddling.

I mean, like, that's I hear these critics all the time.

They email me all the time whenever we talk mental health.

So is there anything inconsistent in the response that you just gave into whether we're out of balance versus mental health on campus?

So when I hear the word coddling, I and someone that would would say that we coddle our students, I wish they would come and talk to students and see what we see.

Every, you know, think so?

I don't think so.

I think it is critical and I think that I and I'll go in my day.

But in my day, when there were many students that didn't make it in school because we were not talking about that, we were not looking at whether they had food and clothing.

I mean, we talk a lot about basic needs now, and and maybe that's not necessarily in the elite schools, maybe Harvard.

And I know they actually have pantries and other things that Harvard and other elite schools.

But when we're talking about real students in real, you know, coming from first generation families, they're coming with concerns that we have to address if we want them to be successful.

And if a student has that sort of holistic, holistic care on a campus where they belong, they feel welcome and accepted.

They they know that they can get the support services that, that the faculty and staff care about their well-being.

I'm going to tell you all day that a student that's going to get to graduation and is going to go into the workforce and be successful.

All right, back to our email and phones.

Charlie says yes to no Regents exams.

Evan, my specialty when teaching in the city, especially during summer school, was prepping kids for the English Regents.

I generally was given the kids who failed the test multiple times.

I developed a plan that took the mystery out of the test and got kids psyched to take the test.

Was that ridiculous?

Probably.

But it sure was fun beating the man at his own game.

Charlie, we're talking to Regents tomorrow on this program, but he says, by the way, return on investment.

My brother graduated from Brockport, went to the University of Chicago for his master's, and then Cornell for law.

I was the laggard and became a musician and then a teacher out of Brockport.

Oh, yeah.

My dad was a member of the first football team at Brockport on the GI Bill and met my mom there go Golden Eagles I love that there.

Yeah go Golden Eagles a lot of Brockport connection there.

And Sandra from Rochester on the phone.

Hi Sandra.

Got to keep a tight go ahead.

And there was that.

Oh Sandra are you listening on the radio or on your phone Sandra.

You there like a woman would tell me.

Yeah.

All right.

So listen, if you call the program, I appreciate it.

Sandra, call us back tomorrow.

You got to listen through the phone, not the radio.

I should probably mention that more often.

Here.

And I'll grab one other question from a listener.

And this comes from.

Sorry, everybody saying I got knocked off balance there.

Alyssa's just asking.

This is from Evan in Rochester.

Obviously a different Evan.

Your guest talked about teaching students to use AI ethically.

What constitutes an ethical use of a system that was built on deliberate, uncompensated, and systemic copyright infringement and plagiarism of living writers and artists?

I will tell you, that's it.

That that's a great question.

And I'll I'll tell you that I do believe that there are ways to teach students to use some of the capabilities of AI to help them get to the answers that they need, but that using is a critical thinking tool I don't think is, appropriate use.

I do have grave concerns about, the bias that we know that is within AI, and there are a lot there's a lot of folks talking now about how there is bias in some of the information that is being pulled in from the web.

And when you think about whether it's gender bias, it's racial bias, it is a sexual orientation bias that does concern me.

So I think that not only do universities need to be having these conversations, but we have to be talking to those that are making the AI to say the creating the AI, to say you have to be making sure that there is not bias in the information that we are being respectful of copyright, that that is certainly for artists and it's lots of I have a daughter who's in the art field, and there's a lot of conversation about, you know, yeah, the the artistic theft that is happening.

And so these are broad conversations that our country and the world have to be having that will obviously have a direct connection to hiring.

And there happens on your campus.

And they are 100% last 90s we've talked often over the last couple years about an enrollment cliff pretty well, pretty well covered.

It's not a fake thing, although it doesn't mean the end of higher ed.

It just might mean smaller numbers of possible people to be applying.

So you're at 6000 undergrad 1800 grad, is that right?

So we are actually at eight as of today.

We are at 8150 in terms of our entire campus population.

Yes.

And just about 1900 graduate students, the rest being undergrad.

Okay.

So over 6000 undergrad, where do you want to go to last minute?

Where in your term, how are you comfortable with the size.

Is there room for growth in terms of the student body there?

What would you like to do.

So I think there's always room for growth.

We've been larger a long time ago in our history.

What I'd actually like to see is if we stay around the, 8100 mark, but that we continue to retain the students at a high level.

We are at about a 75% retention rate, which is national average, which is very, very good in this day and age, I'm pushing for 80% because if we can retain more students, that only increases our enrollment, right?

Because you think about it, you want to keep more students because they when they start, you want them to finish where they started.

Absolutely.

So that's our focus is the retention piece.

And what are the things we need to build in to serve as student starts with us and wants to stay, how do we keep them to the end?

We can celebrate their graduation.

So this is our first conversation on this program.

I hope you'll come back.

I would love to you be welcome back anytime.

And you have a lot of people working out of Brockport who come on this program and bring a lot of expertise.

And I want to thank you on behalf of our listeners for that, and I hope that we can continue doing that.

I love that.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

Ivan, I really appreciate I would be happy to come back anytime.

Doctor Don majors, two flares, who is the president of SUNY Brockport, started in July and that is a good conversation.

So you get a sense of what Doctor Amazing Selfless thinks about her own mission and the mission of higher education.

More Connections coming up in just a moment.

And.

How?

This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

It's staff, management or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience, any rebroadcast or use in another medium, without expressed written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the Connections link at WXXI news.org.