>> From WXXI News.

This is.

Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made at a bar in Athens, Ohio, affectionately known as the cheese.

This bar is a real bar.

It has a real name.

I'm not sure it still exists and I don't want to get sued, so I'm going to refer to it as the cheese, not by its business name.

Here's what it was most known for at Ohio University in the 1990s.

The cheese was where underclassmen went because it didn't cart you.

It served underage.

And when I was at Ohio University, the social scene often revolved around drinking.

I'm not endorsing that.

I'm just observing it because things are changing in this country in a lot of ways.

The youngest adults now, Gen Z, drink less than any previous generation.

Now that could be because they've come of age at a time when marijuana has been legalized in half the states of the country, and marijuana is pretty popular among Gen Zers.

But that can't be the whole story.

Here's what Gallup recently found.

Quote, the percentage of U.S.

adults who consider themselves drinkers has fallen to 54%, the lowest number in Gallup's nearly 90 year trend.

This coincides with the growing belief among Americans that even moderate alcohol consumption is bad for one's health, which is now the majority view in this country.

For the first time.

Young adults had already become less likely to report drinking alcohol a decade ago, but that trend has only accelerated, with the rate falling from 59% in 2023 to just under 50% today.

End quote.

A decade ago, 22% of American adults said they never drink.

Not a drop, not even a drink a year.

Now it's 32% of American adults at Blackfriars Theatre, an upcoming show called The White Chip, features themes of living with addiction, moving through recovery, and for a record number of young American adults, they want to avoid that path altogether.

But for millions more adults, that is their reality.

In fact, there's a wrinkle in this story.

While the number of Americans who drink is going down, the number of Americans who drink heavily is going up.

The pandemic saw a rise in high intensity drinking among younger adults, and that number has remained elevated.

Nearly 15% of adults age 18 to 25 meet the criteria for alcohol use disorder.

So to be short, a growing number of Americans led by Gen Z are not drinking at all.

But for those who do drink, their average consumption is going up and addiction is on the rise.

This hour, we're going to discuss it with our guests.

We're going to talk about The White Chip.

The director of The White Chip is Matt Ames, who is with us.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here, sir.

>> Hello.

It is my absolute pleasure to be here.

>> Next to mat.

Let me welcome Kara Izzo, who is a peer support program manager at ROCovery, and it's been a little while since we talked.

ROCovery.

If listeners might remember ROCovery fitness.

So we're going to talk about the evolution of ROCovery.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> Across the table.

Let me welcome Netzi Montano, who is a nurse practitioner at Delphi Rise.

Nezih.

Welcome.

Tell us what Delphi Rise does.

>> So I'm happy to be here.

Thank you for having me at Delphi Rise, we offer a lot of different therapies to help people with recovery, whether it's medication assisted therapy, we do counseling, we connect people to different resources in the community, whether it's housing or, you know, help with employment.

So we meet people where they're at and we try to connect them or provide them services that they need.

>> An actor number one in The White Chip is Katelyn Machnica.

It's great to have you.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> As an actor, how many people have said you are the day X Monica.

>> A couple, in fact, the man sitting across from me was one of my professors back in the day at Nazareth, when it was still Nazareth College.

And during our play analysis class, that's exactly what he wrote on the on the board.

>> There's no new original ideas anymore, it turns out.

great to have you, Caitlin.

Thank you for being here.

And I want to start with Matt here because The White Chip is coming up at Blackfriars March 19th through the 29th.

There's nine performances.

So you're coming up on first curtain here.

give me the elevator pitch for why you think the show is going to hit with with audiences.

>> Oh, gosh, there's so many people out there who will understand this experience, even if they weren't drinkers or are drinkers.

There's so many things about the relationships in the play and how you make relationships.

flex to meet what's going on in your life and how you can lose relationships, how you can save relationships.

there's a lot of scenes, for example, when the lead character and his mother, which is a very interesting journey for those characters.

So I think everybody, everybody will be able to latch on to the relationships in the play.

>> Well, we're going to dig into The White Chip coming up here.

I want to start the conversation with Caitlin, who shared a little bit of your own personal story.

Not necessarily even just as an actor in The White Chip, but also in your own life and some of these themes and the way they've intersected with you.

Would you mind telling us a little bit about that?

>> I'd be happy to.

I have felt connected to this place since I read an early draft in 2018.

I was lucky enough to meet and work with Sean Daniels, who's the playwright, when he was an artist in residence at Jiva several years ago.

And one day on social media, he was like, hey, I've got a draft of this play I'm working on.

Is anyone interested?

And I was working full time at a theater at the time, and I read it.

I immediately was like, oh my gosh, the second that the rights are available, we have to do this.

It's so wonderful.

And it's hilarious.

It's one of the funniest scripts that I've ever read in my life.

>> Are we talking about the same show?

>> Yeah.

>> The White Chip like alcoholism, sobriety.

>> Absolutely.

It is so funny.

the I mean, obviously alcoholism addiction is a very serious issue, but anyone who has lived with addiction or with someone with addiction know that there are just some straight up silly things that happen sometimes.

so there when Sean told us that he, he grew up in the age of very special episodes and that was kind of the extent of the media that he saw about addiction.

>> A very special episode of full House.

>> Exactly.

>> Probably every show in the 80s and 90s had.

>> Exactly.

And then when it came to when he was going through his recovery process, he was craving a connection in the art of, of a story that reflected his own story and that simply didn't exist.

Everything that he saw was kind of very special episode, highly dramatized which is, you know, not to take away from the seriousness of it, but it just didn't reflect his experience.

And he said, well, you know, if you're not going to see it, you have to make it.

And so he started writing this play.

The first time I read it, I was in a relationship with someone who was and is in an alcoholic and I and also a theater person.

So I read the play and I told him, you have to read this.

This is from the perspective of someone who you want to be like an artist who not only overcame his, his addiction, but is thriving.

And my partner at the time had no interest in, in reading it.

Fast forward a bit and you know, I'm a person who not only lived with someone with addiction, but also had addiction in my family.

Both of my grandfathers passed away from complications from their drinking.

So I knew the warning signs.

I knew all of this.

And then yet due to some circumstances, including the pandemic, like you mentioned in your intro as well as a chronic pain issue that I was dealing with, which is thankfully been resolved, I fell into a very bad place with alcohol.

I was using it to self-medicate and I knew that that was wrong.

I had been through it.

I had been to meetings.

>> Did you recognize it right away?

>> Nope.

No.

It was it was a slow, creeping thing.

it's because it didn't start with I'm going to take, you know, several shots of alcohol to dull this.

It started with a couple of bad days where I would have a couple more drinks than usual.

it and then it it's one of those things where a lot of bad, a lot of bad relationships start out okay and they get worse over time.

And that was it.

It was the, after a couple of years of this, I had an incident where I went to New York City to visit friends and see some shows.

I had a bad flare up of my, of pain and I drank throughout the trip to self-medicate.

We would be walking around and I would say, hey, like, can we do you mind if we pull off to a bar?

I just need a couple of drinks just to settle myself.

And when I got home, that really gnawed at me and I realized that's, that's, that's not sustainable.

And I did a bit of a moral inventory and realized that any time there were, there were periods of my life where I would go without drinking for months, happily.

No problem.

but any time that I was really struggling with something, I, I became eventually uncomfortable with the fact that my instinct was to reach for alcohol, to soothe instead of dealing with whatever the main issue was, was whether it was physical pain or emotional pain.

And and I looked at my life and I saw that the periods where I drank the most were the periods I was most unhappy.

And I didn't want that to continue.

So I stopped drinking.

On February 24th, 2023.

And I haven't drank in over three years.

And it's been wonderful.

and in the main and in the same time about a year into my sobriety I was back in New York visiting friends and I realized that the white chip was performing Off-Broadway.

I had been following it from afar for years.

And I was like, well, this is too perfect.

It's on my, it's, it's on.

my anniversary.

So I went a wonderful actor named Joe Tapper played the role of Stephen, who is the main character narrator.

wonderfully played in our production by a local actor, Colin Peszek.

And I loved the production so much.

It's so theater y. There's one there's one narrator who's driving the story.

And there are two actors, one man and one woman who play everybody else in the role.

So there's lots of literal switching hats.

And theater has always felt like a safe place to me.

And seeing this show made me feel seen and safe in a way that only theater can do.

And it was just so touching.

And I, I remember writing on Facebook about it and tagging Sean and saying, I can't wait for the rights to be available.

I can't wait for cities of every size to be able to experience this.

And I knew that Blackfriars would be first in line, married to Bailey Hoffman and Brant Tisch.

Do not play about good, about good plays, and especially good plays that have ties to Rochester like Sean does.

>> If I can say, am I allowed to say this?

Producer Megan Mack Megan read the script last night and Megan's tough.

And she was like, it's really good.

>> It's really good.

It's so fun.

And so I've been following the show for since it was in its infancy in its, he started writing it when he was here in Rochester in like 2015, 16 when he was still within the first year of his sobriety.

And this, so it's got, it's, it's, there's been tweaks since then and the it's only gotten funnier.

And so then when it was announced that Blackfriars was doing it, I was like, okay, don't freak out.

We gotta do this.

And but so I started, you know, studying the script early, breaking it down into characters.

So that way when I auditioned, I was really ready for it.

and now we're in, you know, this place where not only is it being presented in Rochester, Mary and Brynn have done such a great job.

They're so community based as a theater.

we have all sorts of amazing partnerships.

al-Shaybah.

Delphi Rise ROCovery sobriety sounds s o s Rochester and our season sponsor is Trillium Health, where I took a free class on how to administer Narcan.

So shout out to.

>> All those organizations have been on this program and they really do interesting and important work in this community.

Or al-Shaybah is an example of a bar that you can go to and get really interesting drinks that have no alcohol.

Yes, exactly.

>> They're so tasty and there's no alcohol.

And you still get like the social experience of being out and, you know, enjoying food and drink with someone, which can be really helpful for people who miss that kind of element.

>> So before I turn to your co-panelists, let me just ask you a couple other questions here.

and I want to say that we don't, we're not just focusing on one generation.

The data really hit me looking up some of the data here about what Gen Z is doing and how norms are changing.

And you wonder how durable some of those changes are or what they mean.

And we're going to talk to Nezih about, you know, this rise in addiction, despite the fact that fewer people are drinking.

So there's a lot of really interesting wrinkles to that.

And we're going to talk about that on a future program.

In fact, I'm putting out the bat signal for Gen Z. I want a panel of Gen Zers to talk to me about the way cultural norms are changing around alcohol.

I would love to sit down with a room full of Gen Zers.

You're close to Gen Z, I think.

>> Oh thank you.

I'm 38.

I'm 38.

So I'm I'm more into the millennial millennial, but I also I work at the U of R, so I work with a lot of younger people.

And just anecdotally, I have found that I found that a lot of younger people that I interact with, they don't, you know, go out to the bars in the same way that maybe I did in the early aughts when I was, you know, having fun at in, in New York City or anything.

>> Yeah.

Right.

And so we'll talk about that on a different day with sort of that generational cohort.

But let me just ask you a couple things about what you brought up.

Sure.

So you brought up the way media portrays alcohol.

Somebody shares a note about the saved by the Bell episode where Jesse got hooked on caffeine pills.

>> I'm so excited.

>> Yeah, it's become a meme, you know, like she's I'm so excited.

I'm so scared, you know?

And people kind of laughed at it.

And it was kind of cheesy.

And you had that soft focus and the way that, you know, every, every other Diff'rent Strokes episode had in the 1980s.

And so do those things help or did they hurt the idea of taking addiction seriously, do you think?

>> I think it's a kind of mixed bag.

I think that sometimes it can do good just to bring awareness.

you know, if you don't know if something's an issue, then it can be helpful sometimes to just have some sort of representation there.

I think there are also you know, like a little bit later I remember, you know, you see more, shows like intervention and things like that, which show maybe the reality of, of addiction, however, is, does it have the person's best interest in mind?

Is it actually you know, based in the science that could help them heal?

I don't know.

so it's, I think it's probably a mixed bag because I'm always a big fan of representation.

I think representation matters so much.

And seeing your story can help kind of dull the shame that often comes along with it.

However, if all you, if the only representation you see is not accurate, we talk all the time about how hard it is to play drunk.

and so.

>> Yeah, I imagine.

>> And so if you, if, if all you see are things that are not a good representation or are not an honest representation, or if we feel the need to kind of dull it so that it's more palatable than than maybe we're not sending the right message.

>> Yeah.

Matt Ames director of The White Chip.

What are you looking for when alcoholism has to be portrayed or when you need someone to play drunk, but to do it in a way that isn't sort of a caricature?

>> Well, the trick to playing drunk is drunk.

People don't want to look drunk.

So it's about it's about the changes to your physical motion and your ability to speak clearly.

That happens when you're drunk.

That drunk people.

Speaking from experience, always try to prevent other people from seeing.

so that's kind of the trick to playing inebriated.

One of the big things about acting is actors have to be good observers of human behavior.

And it's very hard to observe drunk people if you're drunk yourself, for example.

>> so that's, that's how we attack that particular issue of it.

And there's a lot of moments in the play where Sean describes experiences that he had and I've been a sober person for 14 years as of March 1st and in recovery, meaning I go to AA meetings every week.

sometimes more if I'm busy, I'm not busy.

I mean and for four years and the stories that you hear, Sean's stories are pretty extreme in the play, but they're not as extreme as the ones I've heard in the rooms.

They are really, really something.

And it is funny to people now, their experiences that they went, how dumb was I?

How stupid a choice that I make back in the day when alcohol controlled my life.

so a lot of that comes out in the play.

That's where the humor comes from.

And the play is people reflecting on, on what the things that they did, which are just incomprehensible to them now that they're sober.

>> Well, speaking of comprehensible, the last thing I wanted to ask Caitlin, before I bring in sort of the professionals in the room here, you know, you talk about having been in a ten year relationship with someone who had who was living with alcoholism.

And you talk about seeing addiction in your own family, and then all of a sudden that becomes part of your own story.

Were you when you kind of started to confront that?

Were you surprised, given that you had all this experience trying to work with a partner who was an alcoholic with family members, you lost grandparents.

Was there any additional sort of disbelief or doubt or even shame or what did you think?

>> Absolutely.

shame is a big part of the addiction spiral and like cycle.

and you know, because you feel bad that you used and then you kind of feel down on yourself and you're like, well, I guess, you know, I'm a lost cause type of thing.

and that that type of thinking didn't come until later until I was like, what am I doing here?

But yeah, I thought I was kind of that I thought I was well armed with my knowledge about addiction.

I had you know, done so much research to try to assist my former partner, I had gone to Al-Anon meetings myself.

I had driven him to a, a meetings.

so I, you know, like a lot of alcoholics, I was like, I got a handle on this.

This is no problem.

I'm not drinking as much.

I'm not drinking every day.

And and eventually those excuses don't really hold up when, when you're waking up with a hangover or when you're physically, you know, like, you know, feeling withdrawal symptoms because you had too much poison.

then it's, it is tough, but, you know it's, I, I tried not to beat myself up because the more you beat yourself up, the more the shame spiral kind of hits in and and drugs and alcohol.

Your brain wants to feel better.

And so it reaches for what it thinks might work.

And and so even though I had not, I had knowledge of, you know, the science behind it and all of that.

It wasn't it wasn't until I, I, something happened where I had to pause and look around and realize, okay, this, this is no longer just like a fun thing or a silly thing that I can joke about.

and there's no good in comparing myself to other addicts if it's affecting me.

>> It's been three years.

Do you have friends who know your story?

Say, hey, just have one drink.

Just have a drink with us.

>> Oh, yeah.

I've had people say like, well, you.

>> Didn't, you know, it's not like you hit rock bottom.

and my lifetime mentor Matt Ames lovingly pointed out just because you, your rock bottom wasn't as bad as someone else's doesn't mean it didn't happen to you.

which was wonderful.

And I brought it up in therapy.

We had a great talk about it.

but yeah, it's there's no good in comparing yourself to others.

everybody's, everybody is different.

And then you you have the risk of thinking, well, since it's not as bad as this other person, then I don't have to check anything on my end.

>> It's really interesting.

Not all rock bottoms look the same.

>> Not at.

>> All, really.

They do not.

In our second half hour, we're going to talk about some of the themes of The White Chip, which I think are really, really pertinent to individuals experience.

I mean, to the point Matt was making, it's going to be really relatable.

not only covering for alcoholism, how to actually get help, but whether alcoholism can spur success or if you're an artist, especially do you start to convince yourself that like, maybe I'm better when I'm not sober and complicated, you know, set of ideas there.

We're going to talk about more of that in our second half hour.

I want to talk to Karen a bit.

Karen is a peer support program manager at ROCovery now.

For years we talked to the team from a ROCovery fitness.

It's been a little while.

Give us an update on what's going on with ROCovery.

>> well, you already just pointed it out, so we used to be ROCovery fitness.

We are a gym, but we're so much more than that.

so the center that we have has a community space.

It has yoga, it has game rooms, it has all sorts of things really for connection.

And so back in September, we rebranded to be ROCovery because we want people to realize it's more than just fitness.

And so I really love how we've already talked about relationships and how important that is because, you know, that's what we believe.

We believe that connection is the opposite of addiction.

12 step is a huge part of my own story.

But you know, not everybody connects with 12 step.

And so there's a lot of pathways of recovery.

And for us, we find that ROCovery and having the, having the fitness aspect, but also making bracelets, you know, doing arts and crafts having sober jam nights, that is just as much a part of somebody's recovery.

>> How many people are you working with serving, et cetera.?

>> Oh my gosh.

So at this point, we have over 10,000 members.

I'm going to say we're at about 12,000 right now.

And, you know, on a daily basis, we probably have 50 to 60 people that come through the door.

>> 12,000 members just in this region here.

>> They're from everywhere, you know, and a lot of people, you know, recovery is not linear.

So there might be somebody who signs up, you know, with the membership questionnaire today that that might move or that we might not see, you know, but we're always there for people to come back to.

>> What's the age range that you're seeing?

>> I mean, ROCovery itself is primarily geared for people over 18. and.

>> But do you have 20 somethings?

Do you have.

>> Well, you sure do.

Yeah, yeah.

>> Is it is it typically 30s, 40s, 50s?

Is it different ages?

>> Gosh part of me wishes I could give you a typical.

And the other part of me is happy I can because you know what I mean?

Addiction impacts everybody.

It doesn't matter how old you are, you know, so there's people that are 18, there's people that are 80.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> And would you say the need for what you do at ROCovery has changed in the last five, six years, especially since the pandemic in any way either intensified or lessened.

>> Oh, wow.

It intensified.

You know, I mean, everybody was impacted by Covid, by the pandemic.

And like I just said, we believe that connection is the opposite of addiction.

So during that time when we couldn't have connection the way that we were used to, you know, for ROCovery, we immediately transitioned to online support.

You know, we started doing workouts on Facebook Live and.

>> Nobody wants to ever do that again, right?

>> Nobody ever wants to do that again.

>> Nobody wants.

>> To know.

>> I mean.

>> But you.

>> Did it.

>> We did.

And it helped connect for that period of time.

But there is simply no substitute for that face to face personal contact.

>> What do you make of the data that shows that the youngest generation of adults drinks less than any previous generation, but those that do are more likely to drink to excess?

>> So I love that it's not as common to drink at that age.

the pessimist in me says that a lot of marijuana, there's a lot of, you know, smoking.

And so you know, that's, that's the flip side of it.

The excess, you know, that's there are people, I guess, that can drink without the same consequences as others.

but, but I don't know what to make of that data.

I, you know, at ROCovery, we don't even require that people be in recovery or identify as that we require 48 hours of continuous sobriety because really wellness and not drinking is kind of good for everybody.

>> To make sure I'm clear on this, 48 hours of continuous sobriety to come in the door to see you or to just be a member of ROCovery.

>> To come in the door.

We want our centers to be a safe space so that people don't have to be impacted in that space by the smell of marijuana or the smell of alcohol or.

>> And where do people find you?

>> We are all over Facebook.

We love our Facebook site and our website, and we're located on Dewey Ave.

We're located between Burr and Bryan Street down the street from Aquinas.

you know, and I just want to point out one thing about that 48 hours to come to our site is what we require, but we provide support out in the community.

So if 48 hours is challenging for somebody to get, then we'll help them.

You know, we'll meet out at a recovery meeting, we'll meet out for coffee, we'll meet out for a hike.

You know, it's very, very person centered.

>> Yeah.

It's great.

Netzi Montano nurse practitioner at Delphi Rise.

What are you seeing lately?

Any, any sort of change or trend that you would point out in this community?

>> Yeah.

So unfortunately, there's been a rise in vaping.

Vaping, nicotine has gone through the roof.

People have the wrong impression.

They think that vaping is safe and that it's good for you.

And it's actually probably worse.

You know, nicotine is just cigarettes are bad, right?

People don't like to hear about that.

But I did want to point out that even though they're saying the statistics are going down, unfortunately, most people that have alcohol use disorder don't get help.

It's statistically proven that it's like less than 15%, maybe even less than that.

So those numbers are those are reassuring.

It still does not really incorporate the truth of what we're living in America.

>> So the challenge so are you.

Do you have any sort of a typical clientele?

Is it all across the board in terms of age range, things like that?

>> Yes, all across the board.

when it comes to like opiate use disorder there's a lot of that as well.

A lot of fentanyl, there's a lot of kratom and.

708 which are things that you can find at your local smoke shop, you know, and so unfortunately, we are being challenged with these new drugs that are out in the market.

fentanyl, the synthetic opiates.

It's really, you know, sometimes I ask myself, am I going to be able to take care of people in the future?

It seems like the, the more we do, the stronger the drugs get.

And you know, you used to Narcan somebody once and now you have to Narcan them eight times, you know, and so it's getting very scary out there.

>> Wow.

I saw the reaction to your colleague next to you there.

I think we had the same reaction that that is that is a remarkable number when it comes to alcoholism.

how significant is the challenge when someone ends up all the way at Delphi when someone is seeing you at that point, where are they typically and the challenge they're facing?

>> So it varies for the most part, when you're an outpatient we would like or not like, but usually people have to be a little bit more stable to be in an outpatient setting because it's like the least, invasive, if you will.

I also, you know, have experience with detox, which is where you get the rawest with alcohol use disorder at Delphi, we also started doing outpatient alcohol detox, which is a challenge in itself.

You have to meet certain level of criteria, have some stability in medical issues and mental health issues because alcohol detox is deadly or it can be deadly.

So a lot of people don't want to go into an inpatient.

One of the issues with alcohol use disorder is that a lot of people are in denial about being an addict, right?

it's, it's tough.

It's just because your drug of choice is liquid and it's accepted by society doesn't necessarily mean that it's any less dangerous.

so we try to educate people and let them know that if you are drinking and you need to detox, doing it at home by yourself is not a safe option at all.

but we do see people in all areas in all levels of difficulty.

>> Do you think the media presentation of addiction over the decades has been helpful or harmful.?

>> you know, when we think back on those little TV shows, you know, I think that sometimes it's harmful because, you know, addiction for the most part, as we have mentioned there's a lot of people that you can't even tell.

my significant other, I was married to someone that still struggles with alcohol use disorder.

And he was, it was a challenge for me.

I'm a nurse practitioner.

This is what I've dedicated my life to for the last 16 years, working in addiction.

And I couldn't tell when he was drunk, you know, bye bye.

There came a point that I could tell because his legs were wobbling and he couldn't stand straight.

And I was like.

He drank too much.

But he was so used to being intoxicated that he lived his life functionally.

And I would have never known.

>> Yeah, that's an interesting distinction because when you think about those media portrayals, the very special episodes, the issue I think I have is that in a 24 minute episode, you get presented with what's supposed to be this really big, life changing thing.

And by the end of it, people are hugging and they've sort of solved it and moving on.

Whereas what you're talking about is the ongoing challenge, sometimes not even recognizing it.

a problem that doesn't go away in, in a half hour episode.

So yeah, I mean, I'm sure people mean well, yeah.

>> And unfortunately, you know, when we talk about the media as well, alcohol is, is accepted, right?

When we see alcohol, people are in love, they're in parties, they're having dinners, they're having a fantastic time.

And so that's one part of alcohol.

But then when we start to use it to dull our emotions, to self-medicate our mental health, our pain, you know, the pandemic was very instrumental in showing us where we were as Americans and our mental health.

It was pretty bad.

Right.

And so a lot of people unfortunately didn't have access to care.

And so substances were what was, you know, and they said that the liquor stores were one of the emergency places.

So they stayed open.

Yeah.

Along with.

>> Food.

>> It was an essential thing.

So, I mean, if you think about that in your drinking, it might not seem like such a problem.

It's essential.

I need it.

>> So can I just jump in there, please?

yeah, I never we talked about this in rehearsal.

I never had that kind of fun when I was drinking.

I mean, I had fun, at least I thought it was for the first, but I was never like at a pool party in Southern California surrounded by beautiful women who thought I was awesome.

that I don't remember that I, I remember being at the end of a dark bar in a basement in New York City and drinking until I fell off the stool.

I remember that, but looking back on it, it's not it wasn't really nearly as fun as I thought it was at the time.

>> You wouldn't call it falling off the stool.

The fun part of the experience?

>> No, no.

>> In retrospect, but I probably thought it was very funny that night, as did my friends, I'm sure, like, oh, this is loaded again.

>> Yeah.

>> No, but it's interesting you bring that up because sometimes people do make a joke of it until, until it's you're in a really dangerous.

>> Absolutely.

One of the, one of the first things, and Sean talks about it in the play that I discovered when I quit drinking was a lot of people that were my friends were not actually they were drinking buddies.

And outside of the bar, we didn't really have much relationship or interaction at all.

I also discovered that when you quit drinking, you also lose friends because you quit drinking.

Who are because they still are.

They still are.

I had a really good friend that I worked with here in the city at Nazareth, and we would go out for drinks and darts every week.

And, and then I stopped drinking and I just wasn't fun anymore.

>> Do you think some of, like what we're seeing with alt bar and some of these.

So alt bar is entirely alcohol free, but in a growing number of bars in general have really good zero proof menus.

Restaurants.

Yes.

Is that helping?

Do you think that that will mitigate some of what you just described, the losing relationship?

>> Well, everybody that I know is different in terms of the the people in recovery that I know, like I can go with my partner to sit in a bar and have something to eat and I'll have a 0% alcohol beer, which of which there are some really good ones now.

Not when I first started, believe me.

>> But.

>> but everybody's different.

I know people that I can't go to my loved ones wedding because people are going to be drinking.

I can't go to.

And we, the way we're handling it at the theater, is that because the theater serves alcohol.

So we're offering a performance where they don't they don't serve any alcohol.

and I decided really early on that I wasn't going to have any real representation of alcohol on the stage.

There wouldn't be any pictures, there wouldn't be any empty bottles, there wouldn't be any beer cans, so on and so forth.

Because I know from my experience in AA that's really going to trigger some people.

That's really going to be hard on some people.

so and it's no problem to leave that out.

You know, we do, we're doing a perfectly good show without it.

>> Carrie, do you think it's helpful that we're starting to see more?

No, no alcohol, drinks on menus, et cetera., or does that sort of pull people back into the place where they might have struggled before?

>> I mean, I love what Matt said that it's very individualized.

I personally will go to restaurants, but to there's a difference between choosing a nonalcoholic beverage and not being able to drink alcohol, you know, so, you know, when I was pregnant, okay, I'll be a designated driver, but when I have a problem with alcohol and that's why I'm not drinking there's just so much more that goes along with it.

So I think it is very helpful.

It's not not helpful.

You know, I think it's very helpful to our general society, our general culture to have those options.

I think people specifically that have substance use disorder, it's a little bit different.

It's not it's not just, oh, yay, I have a new bar to go to.

>> Gotcha.

>> You know, because it's very much just kind of repeating the behavior even without the alcohol.

>> If I may, it's in light of that the thing that I miss the most about it when I quit drinking was the social part of it, as Caitlin was saying, the social part of it, like every once in a while, I'll drive by, you know, murph's and are Irondequoit where I used to not behave well at all and say, wouldn't it be nice to go in and have a beer and watch the hockey game and have some chicken wings and talk to some people and, and and it would be nice if I could do that, but I cannot do that.

people in recovery have to realize and understand and that's why they're in recovery.

That one is too many and no way or near enough.

You can't do it.

You just can't.

>> On the other side of our only break, which we're very late for, we're going to talk about The White Chip and some of the themes, and all of our guests, I'm sure, will have something to say about some of the very relatable themes that are going to be in the show.

The show The White Chip is coming to Blackfriars Theatre March 19th, which is what is that next?

Is that a week from today?

It is a week from today.

It's a week from today.

Thanks, guys.

Next Thursday is opening night and it runs through the 29th.

They've got nine performances and I know there's tickets available.

If you're so inclined to go to see the show at Blackfriars Theatre, we'll come right back on Connections.

Coming up in our second hour, the Landmark Society reveals it's Five to Revive 2026, an annual list of historic sites, buildings, institutions that are falling apart need tender love and care, need saving.

And maybe there's something in your community where you grew up that's fallen apart that you would love to see revived.

We're going to reveal the 2026 list next.

Our.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola, center, proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson.

Believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one, Mary cariola.org.

>> In the show.

The White Chip.

There is a question.

The main character Steve started drinking when he was 12 to fit in to seem cool with his friends.

He drinks through high school and college.

He's got a lot of fun with it.

He thinks it's a thing to do when you're popular.

but then there's this question on wait, is this making me successful as an artist?

Like as a theater director?

He found success and questioned if, you know, if that's linked to the drinking.

And this is not the first time that there have been questions about whether a lack of sobriety has fueled artistic output.

And that is a debate that's happened in music for decades, going back to the 60s and 70s, especially.

I don't I want to believe just personally, that it's not a very healthy thing to do to convince yourself that that is what fueled your creativity.

I understand why some people would make that point, but let me kind of go around the table.

I'm gonna start with the director of the show here.

So this is a sensitive one.

What do you make of this idea that some artists in various realms of art feel like they're they're drinking their addiction drugs, perhaps actually fuels their success, creativity creatively.

>> I understand from personal experience, if nothing else why an artist would think that and feel that way.

But that's because they I feel like that's because they don't really have a good perception of concept of how they're moving through the world.

yes, they're creating great art, but they're also killing themselves at the same time.

I mean, think of how many artists that we lost early.

Yeah.

Because you know what, what would Heath ledger have created as an actor?

What would Philip Seymour Hoffman have created as an actor?

What would Jimi Hendrix have created?

You know, as a guitarist?

>> You know, when I read the other day, Matt, this is a story I never even knew.

Fact check me on this one here, Mama Cass, what is the what is the story of how Mama Cass died?

>> the story is what's the story?

That she choked on a sandwich.

>> Choked on a ham sandwich, which her agent was was worried that people were going to find out.

I think she was in London, that she overdosed and that he didn't want the stigma on her death to be overdosed.

So he thought it'd be better to tell people that Mama Cass choked on a ham sandwich.

She did not choke on a ham sandwich.

I mean, that to me was a wild thing to hear.

But there's another person who lost to overdose.

I mean, it's a long list of people.

>> Who.

Tennessee Williams is mentioned in the play.

And the story on Tennessee Williams is he choked on the cap of a pill bottle.

That's not true.

He died.

He overdosed from, I think actually prescribed medication, but he overdosed nonetheless.

>> And producer Megan Mack was mentioning the literature says she died of a heart attack.

I think it's related to consumption.

On an evening where she was with a lot of people.

Yeah.

So a lot more was disclosed about her substance abuse in the year after she died.

And they were worried that people were going to think it was drugs that killed her, and they'd rather have gone with a ham sandwich.

It's amazing story.

but yeah, it was technically a heart attack, so Katelyn Machnica, who's actor number one in The White Chip.

What about this theme that, you know, maybe, maybe addiction fuels creativity?

>> I mean, it's become a trope.

It's become you know, the, the struggling artist and it's, it can be even romanticized.

I remember a few years ago, Sean shared a article online that he has read and he was like, this is the wildest thing I've ever heard.

And the, it was just a kind of like a thought, a think piece.

And it was like, what happened to all the artist addicts?

I feel like we don't have them anymore.

Are we losing something?

And it was like, it was the weirdest article.

but yeah, I mean, like, I grew up knowing about the 27 club that, that people like Amy Winehouse, Jimi Hendrix, there's a, there's a whole list of people who passed away from drugs or alcohol when they were 27 years.

>> Old, 27.

>> And and I think it's I think because we see people who are extraordinarily gifted at their craft and also happen to be addicts, we it's a correlation versus causation type of thing.

And I, I just, I can't believe that it's that it's true.

we the character of Steven says in the script, you know, like Eugene O'Neill, Tennessee Williams, a bunch of Pulitzers between them, all of them, you know, legends who wants to listen to a sober Jack Kerouac.

But the thing is I think that generally when you, if you see if you've lived with an addict who who is trying to create something, you see, it's, it's not a really like short, snippy process where they have a drink and they're like struck with inspiration.

It slows them down.

Absolutely.

and, and I think that when you're using, you will grab on to whatever excuse you can to continue using.

And if you happen to be succeeding in your art and you also happen to be using, it's really easy to kind of conflate those together and say like, this is, you know, an inspiration that I'm getting from my drug.

And I just, I can't imagine that the science is there.

I don't know how you would like, you know do a scientific study on on the.

>> Creatives that you'd put out.

I think the Beatles would have been great all the way through if they'd stayed clean.

I think the stones, I mean, like, but yeah, but you're right.

How do.

>> You prove that Tennessee Williams is a good example of that too, because he wrote his masterpieces in the 40s and 50s.

He wrote till the 70s when he died.

But those plays are not great.

They're certainly not The Glass Menagerie or Streetcar Named Desire.

and I think it diminishes an artist over time.

I mean, if you're 19 and you know, your Jean-Michel Basquiat and you're creating incredible pieces, you know, but you're going to die.

Yeah, you're going to.

>> Die might diminish your work, as you said in Tennessee Williams might shorten your life.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> And our society does the weird thing you were talking about where sometimes you know, oh, we don't really want to talk about this.

We want that person to have dignity.

So we will make up a lie about a sandwich instead of giving dignity to the the struggle and to addiction.

And I mean, giving someone dignity through a place to exercise and connect and, and get to work through their addictions in that way is so much more dignified than trying to brush it under a rug.

pretending that someone went away for the, you know, the sea air when they're really, you know, struggling and fighting a good fight.

I think there is dignity in, in.

>> That the ham sandwich story just led to weight shaming for.

>> Decades.

>> It's ridiculous.

Absolutely.

and there's also an element of this.

Let me ask about this.

There's an element of story.

I don't want to give too much of Steve's story away, but what people will relate to, whether you've struggled, for example, with alcohol yourself or you know, someone who has, as it increases, you start covering for it in various ways here.

So what happens if you lose a license?

What happens if you crash your car?

Can someone get you somewhere?

What happens if you spend time in jail?

What do you tell people?

What happens if you lose a job and you don't want people to know?

What happens if you lose a relationship, or if there's someone near you who needs you, because maybe they're they're ill, their health is declining, but you're not in shape to kind of take care of them or to be there for them.

So all of those things start to happen in kind of Steve's life, and you start to convince yourself, I think, Kara, that you can cover for this in various ways, but the stakes keep going up.

Maybe you lose a job and you don't want to tell your partner, or you're afraid to be honest about it.

And what do you do about that?

Maybe you get caught drinking somewhere, so now you're sneaking it in the car.

You try to cover in these escalated ways.

And I just, can you just talk a little bit about the danger when the escalation is happening, of what is happening, when people are trying to think they still have control on their addiction, when, you know, increasingly dangerous things or destructive things are happening?

>> Well, I think the the struggle there is when you're in it, you don't see it.

So you just keep moving.

The line keeps moving.

You know, I'll stop drinking when this happens.

Well, that wasn't that bad.

I'll stop drinking when this happens.

So you're moving the line without even recognizing it.

And that stigma that we're talking about is what keeps perpetuating that.

Because, you know, when I, you know, 19 years ago now, when I decided to finally do something about it, I was not I didn't know what to expect.

Well, I did know what to expect.

It wasn't what I found.

You know, I had this vision of what, you know, an alcoholic looked like and that kept me away.

And I didn't want my neighbors to know.

I didn't want anyone to know that I was struggling with this.

And now I'm sitting in front of you with a sober T-shirt on.

So, you know, I think that anonymity that some of our programs has is very important because it helps people get into recovery, but that once we're here, you know, we got to we've got to reach out, we've got to connect with people so that, you know, when they're seeing that line or there's something in their head saying, I think I might have a problem with alcohol, that it's okay to reach out for help.

>> Well.

>> Just briefly, when, when someone with addiction thinks they are effectively covering, is it possible that the people around them are seeing what they're hoping the addict is hoping they're not seeing?

>> Oh, I would say we're never effective at covering.

So yeah, you know, give it up.

You know, recognize that, you know, I used to I used to not want people to know I was in recovery because then I would know they would know I was an alcoholic.

They knew.

So yeah, the covering is just hurting ourselves.

>> Well, it turns out they might know and they might still they probably do still love you and still, you know, want what's best for you.

And so that's where I'm going to end here with one question for Nezih here again, Steve, I don't want to give away too much of the story, but he eventually has to figure out one person who he can trust here.

And hopefully people have someone who they can turn to when they really are open to getting help.

Do you find that that is the case, that it is helpful when someone's got someone they can trust and be open with and say, you know, get me where I need to go.

I'm open to it.

How important is that trusted relationship on this path?

>> It's very important.

it's people, places and things.

It's what and comprises recovery, right?

And so we need people, we need Connections, we need supports.

Unfortunately, a lot of people that have been in addiction for a long time lose their supports along the way.

But that's where people like myself come in, right?

I might not be your sister or your mom, but I'm a healthcare professional that actually cares.

At Delphi Rise we meet you where you're at, we will provide different tools to help you, right?

I wish that there was a pill that I could give someone that would take everything away.

Yes.

There's naltrexone.

Yes, there's vivitrol we offer that.

However, you have to figure out what your triggers are.

You have to figure out what your supports are.

You have to figure out what your strengths are.

Because all that together is what's going to take you there.

>> Where do people find you at Delphi Net?

>> I'm at 72 Hinchey Road.

We have open access, so any issue, you know, we're there to connect.

we are there Monday through Friday.

Open access is 24 seven.

So anytime you're in crisis, it could be at 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning.

If you're struggling and you want help, go to 72 and we're there to help you.

>> It's Delphi Rise online.

>> We are online as well.

Delphi Rise dot.

>> Org Delphi Rise.org.

If listeners audience, if you know someone who needs it because I know Nezih you do great work and I really appreciate you being here.

Kara one more time.

Tell people where they can find you at ROCovery.

>> So our website's ROCovery nysut.org, and we're ROCovery on Facebook and Instagram.

>> Thank you for being here.

And if you want to see the show that we've been talking about, the white chip, Matt and Caitlin have promised that not only are the themes going to probably hit with a lot of people, but you'll still laugh.

You're going to have a good time.

that's the promise.

>> And it.

>> Is.

Absolutely.

So Matt, the show opens in a week.

March 19th runs through the 29th at Blackfriars.

If they've never been to Blackfriars, why should they go?

>> Oh, because Blackfriars is a very intimate theater.

And it's also reasonably priced.

I happen to think, having been in this business for 55 years, that community theater is the most important kind of theater there is.

Well, a lot of these same reasons.

>> Thank you for being here.

Thanks for telling your own story and for bringing the story of The White Chip here and Katelyn Machnica actor number one in The White Chip.

Have a great time in the show.

I know you've been waiting for a long time for Rochester to have a chance to see this one, and.

>> It's so worth the wait.

>> The White Chip has been your white whale and you got it.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you for telling your story as well.

>> My pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

>> We've got more Connections coming up in just a moment.

>> This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience.

Any rebroadcast or use in another medium without expressed written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the Connections link at wxxinews.org.