From WXXI news.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Well, the city of Rochester is short hotel rooms.

And if you follow nine news on social media, maybe you've seen the piece that our colleagues have put together, including some drone footage.

And if you haven't seen what's been going on downtown, it's pretty.

It's pretty stirring to see the condition of some of the properties there.

As reported by WXXI's Brian Sharp.

The 2020 closure of the Rochester Riverside Hotel and the more recent shutdown of the Wyndham has left a dearth of rooms.

But the Hyatt Regency is slated for $16 million renovation, and that is a positive no.

Tim made the other hotels uncertain futures, according to the Hyatt's general manager.

So what does the future hold to, visit Rochester?

And different groups are saying this is not a good situation for a city that still wants to bring in big events, big groups.

And Brian's here to kind of talk to us through what is going on.

First of all, you, Max shelter and the team will put together the social media piece.

Kudos to you.

The drone videos from the air.

You can.

It does not look great in for some of those properties, I have to say.

Yeah.

I think that's the, the the was the big eye opening thing for me because, you know, you're you're in the convention center.

You look across, you see that property.

It's a mess.

It's been a mess for a period of time.

But it's different when.

Yeah, those pictures are, you know, a few feet from the the broken windows, spray painted rooms.

Yeah.

Busted railings, collapsing ceilings, all of that.

It's our.

It's a Roman coliseum.

Well, hopefully not, though.

I mean, part of the point is that we're going to be talking about in just a moment here.

Is there still a hope that someone will come in and rescue them and bring them up to speed?

So.

But what is the actual way to contextualize this, Brian?

I ask because it's not the 1980s anymore.

It's not the 1990s, but there are still big events.

There's traveling sports events, there's conventions, there's things that require or would require more hotel rooms that perhaps we currently have.

What do we know about that?

Right.

Well, that's I talked with Don Jeffries of the Visit Rochester, the local.

Yeah, just as their name implies.

And and he was talking about, you know, when the Wyndham shut down, they actually failed to notify a group that they had booked somewhere around 100 and 7080 rooms.

Visit Rochester, reached out, tried to catch them, but these folks had already looked around.

Are like there's nowhere to stay.

We're going to Batavia.

The city has their HBCU classic, each year, those teams, those staff, everybody stay in Batavia, as opposed to because there's not enough rooms downtown.

So, let's can we listen to some of what Don Jeffries told you?

I know you have some sound here again.

Don's the president and CEO.

Visit Rochester, and let's listen to this first comment where he's kind of giving you the big picture of what's going on right now.

I know Syracuse struggles with this.

I think Buffalo struggles with it a little bit again, because people are not into the Full-Service hotels.

You know, the Riverside closing was something, but at least we had the Wyndham where we could book a couple hundred rooms.

But now that that's gone, we up in 2015 or 16, we had over 1600 hotel rooms downtown.

Now we're down to 800, so we've lost 50% of our downtown inventory.

And again, he is not arguing that this is just a natural progression of a city that's gotten a little smaller, an economy that's changed.

He's saying this is a problem.

Yeah, because they they can't get, you know, these bigger events.

And you, you have other hotels trying to to step in.

It's not that we only have the Hyatt now.

But, you know, when the river, the riverside is 400, or it was 400 and some rooms the the Wyndham is 200.

Some rooms, those those are your bigger hotel.

The Hyatt is the biggest, but these are, you know, basically neck and neck for the your next biggest.

So let's listen to what Don had to say about some of the renovations at the Hyatt, and then how that sort of at least is buffeting some of the other parts of the news with hotels.

The renovations to the Hyatt is great news because we are in need of a premier hotel downtown, and the Hyatt is certainly good now.

But I think with the renovations it's going to be great, but we would like to get another hotel open.

What's funny, Brian, is our business is still really good, the occupancy rates good, the average daily rates good, the hotels are telling us business is good, but it's going into the suburbs because of the lack of rooms downtown.

And instead of booking these giant groups that we usually book, now we're booking smaller groups and there's single property meetings, like one would be a meeting at the DoubleTree and one would be at a meeting at the Stress Allen and you know, that type of thing.

So in order to get the big groups back, we've got to get at least one of those two hotels open.

And you know, it looks like the Riverside to me is the last piece of the downtown revitalization on Main Street.

Every thing else looks good, but you go across from that thing and it's a mess.

Yeah, that was a little more blunt than I expected from.

Yeah.

And you know, the thing he, he mentions the, one the these conventions are, you know, I guess probably right behind, sporting events and in terms of bringing families and youth sports and that kind of thing, it's it's a big money make these folks stay at hotels, they go out to restaurants, they spend money in our community.

And they're introduced to our community, through sometimes these events.

But the convention center is undergoing renovations now.

And, you know, the one thing we were talking about was like, well, how how hard is it to climb back into that space?

And he said, you know, you get a new hotel, a newly refurbished hotel, then you get the Hyatt, you know, upgraded as some of their plans are, and you get a new convention center, you're right back in it because now you're advertising, you know, new shiny things.

And that's where folks want to go.

This is not the same as some of the reporting that we're working on about malls, because malls are a different deal.

Malls are going to struggle because their space is so specific for a mall, and malls in general aren't necessarily coming back.

So they have to reinvent and other spaces.

Look at some of the pictures that you're seeing, especially if you're watching on YouTube and some of the images from our colleague, our colleague Max Schultz here, at least even though it's done, Jeffrey says it's a mess.

If a new hotel comes in, it's a hotel.

I mean, you have the structure in place.

You have a lot of work to do on the interior, but you're not reinventing it.

It's not, it's not a total reinvention.

It's just a lot of work, I would think.

Right.

And there are plans, and our understanding is you know, the the overhaul, the construction hasn't started.

Supposedly they are getting in there and starting some of the cleanup.

And there's clearly from these pictures, a lot to do.

And winter's coming.

So the Wyndham meanwhile, is that one's buttoned up.

It's wrapped in corrugated steel and metal, and you're nobody's going in to that one.

But.

And I think that's where they think, you know, the Wyndham could probably turn quickly.

It's in foreclosure right now.

It got shut down over racking up code violations and things, and then, things started spiraling and and that's built.

But the riverside has, combination local and Buffalo, developer, that are behind it.

They've got state money committed to it.

None of that has been spent.

I know when we posted the story, people are like, well, how much money has gone into that?

Because there's been significant awards to try and get this project moving.

But, and these types of cases that it's one of those things of you, you submit receipts to get that money.

They don't just cut you a check and tell you good luck.

Is it your sense that had the pandemic never happened, it wouldn't be this severe?

I don't I don't know, I think there's also and this goes off in another tangent, but another thing, you see hotels being built still.

You see like you saying the business is good.

You see hotels going up.

And in Henrietta you see a hotel being built at City Gate.

So I think that was part of it.

But, you know, the, the riverside closed right at the start of the pandemic.

Wyndham closed, totally separate and unrelated to it.

There's also a, shift in the industry as far as, like, the types of hotels there's, you know, we've written about these sort of longer stay hotels or more of your budget hotels are coming in.

So it's yeah, it's sort of the plan for the Riverside is not actually to reopen as a 400 room hotel.

They want to put apartments in there and, and other things and be more of a boutique hotel.

So we are still going to be short, according to what Don Jeffrey said.

Right.

We could they estimate that we could use another thousand hotel rooms downtown.

Okay.

Last question though.

I mean, is if the market is still pretty robust for this, as Jeffrey says, is it also possible that the market doesn't want to go downtown?

The market would rather go to the suburbs or to City Gate or other places?

Possible, you know, but they they're pretty sure that, they're going to be able to get an operator to come in.

And apparently the, the lender who's foreclosed on the Wyndham is eager to see that property turned around and back operating.

And they're like, I say, we've got developers on the Riverside.

Apparently there have been other interested parties wanting to take the Riverside, so there's interest there.

The riverside is going to be a huge lift.

And then I think we're just in a spot now where it's like, yeah, we've got we've got an issue to try and figure out how to solve.

I want to thank Brian for coming in.

We're going to put, we're going to put a link.

So you should see really not only his reporting but the social piece that we have together that kind of shows you that drone footage.

And again, if you haven't seen it in a while, it's kind of shocking because this is the heart of the downtown.

This is where Don Jefferies is.

He's on the money.

When he says there's been a lot of revitalization.

Yeah.

And then there's this.

And I know the city doesn't want that, but it's a hard problem to solve and it is jarring to look at it.

Yeah.

And I've seen a lot of I mean, there used to be furniture in the pool, and I've seen a lot of images, but about those up close were still, yeah.

Eye opening to me.

The time of the graffiti is pretty high up, too.

I mean, there's that.

There is top floor.

They got.

Yeah, pretty creative people.

Yeah.

Thank you, Brian Sharp.

Appreciate your time.

Is there some of the images if you're watching on our YouTube there.

Yeah.

That's that's not ground level everybody.

Thank you Brian Sharp Brian of course is investigations and enterprise editor for WXXI news.

Thanks for the time here.

Thank you.

We've got a lot more to come.

Our colleague Scott Regan is in next year, and Scott is changing his schedule.

We're going to say because he's he's not going to retire.

He's going to keep working.

He's going to keep playing music.

But, open tuning his last broadcast with Scott is tomorrow.

And Scott Regan, a legend in studio next.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson Auto Group.

Believing an informed public makes for a stronger community.

Proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson focused on the news, issues and trends that shape the lives of listeners in the Rochester and Finger Lakes regions.

Bob Johnson Auto group.com.

Election day is coming, but do you know who's running, what the candidates stand for, or how local elections actually work?

Before you cast your vote, explore candidate profiles, hear their conversations on Connections with Evan Dawson, and get the facts on local elections from how they work to what you need to know before voting.

WXXI news is your election hub.

No.

Before you vote, start at WXXI News Talk.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, right around the time that I arrived in Rochester about 22 years ago, 22, 23 years ago, a guy named Scott Regan was hosting open tunings and all the coolest people I knew.

I mean, truly cool people.

Not like me, like fake cool, but actually cool people turn me on to open tunings.

And Scott Regan, because that's where you were going to discover great music.

That's where you're going to hear great artists talk to Scott.

And the reason that Scott Regan is a legend is because he has done such a phenomenal job of bringing music to our community, but he has also and truly, truly curious.

He's one of the more humble people you will ever meet.

He's an outstanding musician himself, and he is with us in studio because his schedule is changing.

Although you're not very good at this retirement thing, it's not really retirement.

So your schedule is going to change, but you're going to keep working.

That's right.

I'll be doing it every, every every Saturday morning.

And, starting on Halloween day.

So it's going to be a great start.

No break for you.

It's going to be fun.

I loved Halloween doing this.

The, the themes like that, you know, with ghosts and whatever.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you'll jump right into that.

But tomorrow's the last open tunings on a weekday.

It is.

You know, you started in 2004.

What was the first song you played?

You remember?

I should have thought of that.

I really couldn't tell you.

I bet it's a blur.

Probably thought that was Van Morrison.

I don't really, let's just say that we'll go with Van Morrison.

Probably was Van Morrison.

What did you 22 years ago?

What did you want to do with that show?

What was your vision for it?

Well, it was a, completely open field when I, when I started, it was basically the only show on w r u r wxxi.

I just gotten, permission or they they went.

We know I sort of helped out the U of our with the station, and they needed someone to do some music in the morning.

They wanted to do something called, Americana and all that.

And I said, right, I know that music.

I, you know, they asked me what they should play.

I well, I could do a show like that.

It was just wide open and, it was a very organic process, and I didn't really have a vision for it.

Just hoping that whenever you played sort of stock, you know, you play something, you hope that somebody doesn't turn you off.

Right?

That that's the strategy.

And and believe me, there were many moments where I thought, oh, I shouldn't have played that song.

You know, everyone just turn the radio off just now.

But they're still there, I guess.

So, no, very much so.

You know, you know, your listeners have been not only loyal, but just really grateful for what you have done.

And so what is it like for you being on the eve of your last week day show?

How are you feeling this week?

It's, someone said surreal.

I, I would go it's surreal.

Yeah.

It's just it's not it doesn't sink in, you know?

Yes.

It's going to be a whole different world.

I love doing what I'm doing, going in or just getting lost in playlists.

And what song comes next?

It's it's a real rare opportunity.

Most radio stations don't allow you to do that.

I mean, it really, if if I told people what I did, they would never let me do it.

So it's it's, I mean, I walk in in the morning with no plan.

I don't even know.

I'm going to start with, you know, your bosses are listening right now, but I'm done tomorrow.

Start.

Yeah, but your sensibility is so good, and you've you've relied on your instincts to guide you then.

And you've done a phenomenal job.

Do you have something that stands out over the years where you go, you know, this is not an artist.

I would have known before open tunings.

And I'm glad, whether it's a local artist or a relationship, you've built that has come through the show, there's too many to mention, you know, and a lot of it is even just appreciation of, bands who I knew that I, they ignored because I have everyone sort of has their own musical prejudice, I think.

And I just have a thing about, I don't know, electric long songs.

So I, I, I've developed a real appreciation of the Allman Brothers, which you know, I never had when I was younger.

And, and the Avett Brothers came along back around the same time I started.

It was like, wow, who are these guys?

Brand new.

You know?

Okay, so those are a good couple there.

Yeah.

And certainly you're right, everyone does have their musical biases, but I think you've imbued in the community some of yours because, you know, I think your own sensibility is, toward thoughtful songwriting.

I think that's partially why you and a number of people created if all of Rochester wrote the same song, am I giving you too much credit for that, or was that was that your idea originally, as I was, the whole thing was that Jeff Ryles had that title.

No record drinking on an Empty Heart.

That was.

So we should back up for people who don't know what we're talking about, because the first one was like a decade.

I don't know how long ago now, like some ten, 12 years ago or whatever it was.

So the idea being they put the song title out to the community and then songwriters, it's up to you.

So all you have is the title, and then you get dozens of submissions and you narrow it down, and then you have one showcase night where everyone plays their version of one of the whatever the song is called the first year, don't go drinkin and a lonely heart and an empty heart and an empty heart.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I was at Jeff Ralph's house.

He showed me his Lo studio downstairs, and I looked to his bookcase.

Oh, those are the song titles which I write down.

And I picked that one out.

I said, boy, what a great title.

And he goes, so I never finish that song.

So I said, well, I'm going to steal that and I'm going to finish it.

I'm going to write one like that.

And I told all my songwriter friends to do the same thing, and they all showed it was back in the day.

So the flip side, open mic and everyone showed up with a song like that.

So it was like, And then Sarah Hendershot not got word of that and put together the whole the first song where a second like that.

Yeah.

Sarah deserves a lot of credit there too.

Yeah, yeah, no doubt about it.

There are a lot of people involved, but it's such a cool idea.

So don't go drinking on an empty heart.

What did I miss was the theme where we kind of came back from Covid.

I'm trying to think of some of the others.

Yeah.

I mean, to me they were like, right out of the playbook of some of my favorite song names ever.

Like, I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

That's a great one.

I don't know whether to get drunk or go bowling.

You know, those were kind of the ideas over the years, and there's been some wonderful music that's come out of that that Scott and the people around him have have pulled together.

It's been a real, I think, a labor of love in the community.

And I want to take a couple of phone calls here.

I don't know who we have.

So I think maybe, maybe Scott will figure it out when these guys start talking.

Hello.

You're on with Scott radio there.

Hello there.

Hello there.

Hi.

Long time listener.

First time caller.

Both your shows actually.

Scott, this is Adam Kodiak over on the TV site.

Oh my God.

Adam.

Hi.

Oh, boy.

Hey.

So I just want to let you know you have been such a big part of my family's life, so I. This is going to sound so silly, but every Saturday morning, I finally take control of the music.

And I call it Saturday morning, daddy music time.

And and I get groans from the entire family.

Even the pugs growl and, just because it's my music that I turn you on and it is immediately, immediately I feel connected to the community as a whole.

So I guess if you don't mind, Scott, I just want to, elaborate on that a little bit, because I think this is really important because we're both broadcasters, is in this weird Firefly media universe that we live in.

So many things kind of light up and then burn out so quickly, and people listen in their own little caves.

But what you do is you connect us with your, your music.

And I guess what I love is the constant part of that.

So during the pandemic, like it was just something that I could rely on.

I found comfort in.

And you were just always there.

And not only that, I think where your talent truly lies.

And I don't even know if you intended to do this.

I guess it's a long question, is you're able to almost tap into the feeling of the moment and kind of help guide us through not just a morning, but but through a day.

And it kind of set the tone.

And I just so appreciate that.

Well, I'm, I'm honored that you were called to begin with, and I'm just so I mean, this is surreal to hear you say all that it's been, you know, it's like often we're saying a sort of an instinct thing.

Just sort of go with your instinct and hope it works.

And.

Well, I've had kind, kind listeners throughout the years, including yourself.

And, I just can't thank you enough for that.

Those those kind words.

It's really, humbling.

So thank you.

Oh, yeah.

No thank you.

And I hear you're still going to do Saturdays.

I'm not mistaken.

So, yeah, I'll take over for daddy.

Music for you on Saturday.

Saturday morning, daddy.

Music time.

You're, It will never end.

Thank you.

Adam.

And.

Yeah.

No, thank you both.

Appreciate the chance to say these words, to the public.

And we appreciate you, too.

So thank you for everything you do.

That is, by the way, of course, the voice of, WRC, and News Eight's Adam Codec, and, Adam is a guitar player.

His son has become a guitar player.

And I bet there's a little Scott Regan influence even in that decision.

So I hope they play that better than I do.

Oh, come on, man, I'm glad you're so painfully humble.

It's just it's it's cringe Scott Regan her all cringe rivet all right let's take another one.

Let's just let's do one more.

Is that all right with you?

Sure.

All right.

Let's see who we got.

Your answer.

Hello.

Do you know who I am?

Scott I do, but I can't place it.

I keep talking, it used to be sticky, but got to sticky, so I had to let go.

Since John days.

It is, it is.

Hey, Danny.

How are you doing?

Long time no see.

Long time no see.

And I have to tell you, you're talking about.

You're.

You're playing just a minute ago.

And I would came home and told Carol Scott.

Is that the most beautiful Mississippi John Hurt style picking behind Connie's?

I think it was John Henry.

I believe it was.

She was saying it.

Yeah, it was, Elvis Presley blues, Gillian Welch.

Oh, that's Presley blues based on that.

God, you nailed it.

You sounded so.

It was a beautiful Mississippi John hurt.

So don't sell yourself short as a guitar player.

Thank you.

John, thank you.

And I would just say from the music community, from all the songwriters in this town, you have been the thread that's for of us all together, not only playing our tunes on your on your show, but just bringing us together as a community.

Your show has done that.

You have done that at large as well, and I appreciate it.

And I know so many other people do as well.

It's been a privilege, honestly.

It's been a real privilege to be able to, play regional music.

I hate to say play my friends music because I didn't know most of the people I play that I mean, before I didn't say, yeah, I mean, now energy is just built because of the of your show.

Now, many of them are great friends.

And I really appreciate what they do, you know, every day.

So Carol and I get up every morning to NPR news, and then we go right to your show.

And a lot of the times I'm out doing morning chores and listening to you in the car.

And it really I'm not trying to boost yet, but you have really become the soundtrack of my morning life.

And I think so many other people in this town as well.

And we love you so much.

And there are other horizons ahead of you.

Thanks, John, and thanks for calling.

What a great phone call from, John daddy, of course, daddy brothers and a wonderful musician himself.

And, you know, he's making an interesting point here, Scott.

It's possible that this community of songwriters would have found each other in the same way if open tunings didn't exist, but I doubt it.

I think in many ways you have been the glue that's pulled so many people together who have, who have a great amount of talent, but also a great amount of love for their their community and for the craft of songwriting and because of you and what you do, you've built this cohesive thing that might have just been more scattershot.

I mean, don't roll your eyes, John, to write here, sometimes you just got to take.

It's hard to roll your eyes on the radio.

No, see, we're on YouTube now.

They can see you.

We're multi-platform.

Look at you're looking right at the audience that, I in a minute.

I'm just going to.

We're going to play one cut of music.

But let me just hit a couple of other points.

But before we let Scott get back to his day and plan his final Friday with open tunings, although again Saturday morning stay with Scott Regan.

I want to play.

I want to, read an email and get your take on this here.

So Patrick says, I played ice hockey with Scott's son.

Fantastic work Scott, over the years, and I wonder what Scott's take is on the live music scene now that some of the venues are changing.

The Scott have any predictions or ideas about what's going on with the live scene?

What do you think, cowboy?

Well, if I had predicted where it was going when I started the show, I would have been completely wrong too.

But we had a lot of, venues back then.

When I started in 2004, milestones did a lot.

And, there were other things like, I don't remember.

And then Abilene started, but with Abilene leaving and, at least a big hall, I mean, although largely that's for people of my generation, I think, the younger kids, still younger kids like Hannah, you know, she's not that really that young, but their, their generation, so on.

Hannah will gladly take the young moniker.

I she looking at me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah she will because she's younger than you.

So a prediction of where it's going.

That's really a tough one.

It's really a tough one.

I mean, everything took so long to come back after the pandemic to begin with.

It's it's really we're just recovering from it now, pretty much.

So it's hard to say.

Where can I go?

Let me say about Abilene, they're hosting a celebration of Scott Regan on Tuesday, November 10th.

Everyone is welcome to come.

Wish Scott.

Well, that's two Tuesdays from now at Abilene.

And that's going to be a great evening, I'm sure, in a great place before they, close this iteration of Abilene.

You might have heard, on a previous program on Connections.

They would like that building to continue to be a music venue, but the future is unwritten in that particular case.

And speaking of written, you know, you bring up not only your own, like love of acoustic songwriting and singer songwriting work, but I'm also thinking about whether there is a this is not like the classical music conversation, like it's classical music dying.

But I'm worried about singer songwriting because of I, because of where music in general is going.

And I kind of wonder what you think.

I mean, I remember growing up and my, my older brother had a Columbia Records, you know, that scam where you paid like a penny and you got all the CDs they sent to you and then you never paid for them.

So he he got a John Gorka CD and it was a John Gorka CD with a song called All That Hammering.

And it was one of the first songs I learned to play on acoustic guitar, because I loved it so much, and I loved that whole album.

And I was a young, you know, kid that was a teenager.

It's it's harder for me to imagine that kind of thing happening now.

Are you worried about the future of singer songwriting?

That's interesting question.

I know we were.

You were talking about I a few months back.

Yeah.

And, it's tough.

It's I really I mean, I know people who have done some of that, I, production and they just say it's sparkling.

It's wonderful when it comes out, even though it's not human.

And, it's it might just be a tool.

It might just be the next tool.

I hope so, I hope we we continue to have singer songwriting because I don't mind a flaw in a voice.

I don't mind, oh, no, a missed strum or a string.

Yeah.

I don't need perfection.

I mean there's always, there's always been little, corners where people gathered to do music, no matter what time of history you're talking about.

There are always minstrels or there's, you know, folk clubs or cafes or even just in your neighborhood.

I mean, a music is sort of universal and, and part of our human existence.

So it's hard to think it's just going to go away.

And as long as music is here, people get a lot of creative.

I mean, there's creative people out there who can't help themselves.

Okay?

It's like I'm going to write a song today, you know, or I'm just going to do a painting or whatever.

I mean, creativity is part of our curiosity.

Do you mind if we listen to a little bit of this flag from Autumn moon?

That's fine.

Let's, let's, let's listen a little bit.

We'll finish up with Scott Regan.

This when this father's flag from falling free and true stretch across the sky, I get stuck up there with blue.

Hasn't move for hours.

Its wind is bound to cease its flag.

And I finally find some peace.

And they've painted different faces on each side of the flag.

Never see each other.

The other linked rag rack one side and the shadows one side.

And a light.

They just hang together day and night.

And this flag is many colors.

Its flag is old and new.

And waves, like all the others.

Neath this sky blue.

This flag was found I mean, I wish I had just listened to this, this music the whole time.

So what's this song about?

Here's, Well, one day I was walking, down to our neighborhood.

We have a number of banks in our neighborhood, and all the banks used to, I don't know if they still do or not fly flags.

And there was a wind that day that really made the flag look like it was stuck up there with glue.

It was not moving.

It was so strong.

It was just out there like that.

Show yourself.

And it's funny because I walked by it and I turned around, looked at the other side of it, and I thought, wait, there's two sides to the flag here.

I always think of the flag is just being, yeah, that image.

So I started with that and it's like, so there's two sides once in the shadows, once and the light, and they just hang together day and night and, so it's about the division in the country.

You know, the great songwriters love the a variation on the moon theme.

There was Harvest Moon.

No.

Moonshine is the James Taylor album Ottoman.

So, you know, all the greats, all the great, all the greats, that's, you know, you got to do that.

It's like having a train song.

You can train songs on moon, songs.

Listen, congratulations on a phenomenal 22 years with open tunings weekdays.

Although, again, we're not we're not saying the word retirement.

Scott Regan is still working on Saturdays.

I imagine you're still going to be out playing at the little theater and getting people together and talking about music and spreading music playing tonight.

Wow.

So yes.

And Evan, thanks for all you do.

I I've listened to you since the beginning.

I have to say I shouldn't say it, but I kind of miss your second hour, and, it's just a delight to get to know you and.

And to be able to call you, a colleague.

It's, it's an honor.

So thanks.

I appreciate that.

And this is the season of change here.

I mean, I appreciate the comment about the second hour, but now you're going to see me in other places that, that I haven't had time to get to.

So, there's a lot of demand on on us on air people, Scott, as you know.

But for you, it's clearly been a labor of love.

So we look forward to Saturday mornings with you.

We look forward to seeing you at the little cafe and seeing you on stages.

Thanks for all the work you've done to pull the songwriting community together for all these years.

And as Adam Choat said, thank you for the gift that you've given people every single day with the music.

Well, I'm I'm humbled and I'm honored.

It's really been it has been a great pleasure.

I mean, every day is different and it's been a real labor of not even a labor.

It's just been a wonderful experience.

You know, I can't thank everybody enough.

Our listeners are the best in the world.

We love your brother.

Thank you.

That's Scott Regan.

We're going to close the hour with a conversation on the hottest documentary and maybe decades.

You can see everything.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Carolla Center.

Proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson, believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one.

Mary Carey, ola.org.

The rural northeast corner of California used to be represented by a Republican farmer, but the region got carved up in redistricting battles, and now voters there will likely have a Bay Area Democrat as their representative.

This district was drawn with the purpose of making my voice less powerful.

That's what gerrymandering is.

That story on All Things Considered, from NPR news.

This afternoon at four.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, so on Monday evening, I was out at the Little theater theater one, and I think I got the last seat in it.

It's been a while since I've been in a packed theater when nearly 300 people.

And that.

That's the way to see a movie, everybody.

That's why the little is the best I saw.

You can see everything in nearly three hour.

We're calling it a documentary.

And we're here to talk about it.

We've got Scott Pukos, the director of communications for Little Theater.

You've seen it how many times have you seen it?

I've seen it twice.

You've seen it twice.

Okay.

And Amy Adrian, filmmaker and assistant professor in the School of Film and Animation.

And here it is, joining us remotely.

Amy, how many times have you seen it yet?

Hey, team.

Hey, team.

I can't hear Adrian.

Amy Adrian.

Just so you know.

So I want to make sure that we're hearing.

Amy Adrian.

So, Yeah, it's, So, Scott, let me start with you here.

And let's start with, just your your first take on it for me.

The theater was electric.

It was so weird being in the documentary experience.

And it was there was constant laughter.

There were gasps there.

There were a moment.

There was a moment in the film where people in the crowd were shouting at the screen.

And in the theater I was in, so I don't think I've ever had a film experience like it.

What about you?

Yeah, it's happened in both the screenings I went to.

There's been gasping, guffawing, people shouting out during the movie.

I think it's one of those, like, every once in a while, we get a cultural moment, and it's a movie that you just have to watch in the movie theater.

And this is one of them is is watching it with a packed crowd.

Adds to that element so much because, yeah, it's just people baffled and befuddled and it's it's really, I think, in my opinion, it's one of my favorite movies of the year.

It's up there with the invite, and it just is a must watch.

So, Amy Adrian, let's start with this.

What was this film about either you're having.

You're having me describe.

Yeah.

Please do an easy one.

Thanks.

Thanks for the softball.

It's about Elizabeth Holmes, who famous for founding Serranos, which, raised 7 to $900 million in their, in over the course of that company's life.

And then she was convicted of fraud, of defrauding investors and patients when it turned out that, the device that she invented couldn't do any of the things that she said it could do.

But this film is actually, Nathan Fielder is a filmmaker who lives with her and her partner, and their two very young children.

In the 34 days before she needs to surrender herself and start serving her sentence.

And the film is largely a question and a conversation between the director and Elizabeth Holmes as he's trying to figure out, is she a misunderstood genius?

Is she a naive woman who needs protecting?

Is she a mastermind of manipulation who is very successfully manipulating the film director throughout the production process?

So it's a very meta film about a very American story of power, self reinvention, ambition.

And all those juicy things that we love.

So the ambiguity of truth.

If I were a student in your class and I said the ambiguity of truth, would I be going in the right direction?

Kind of.

I mean, I don't know.

Yeah.

I mean, the ambiguity of truth in entertainment, in commercial products, in documentary.

I don't know that truth is all that ambiguous, but certainly in this film and the presentation of it, there is a lot of ambiguity.

Yes.

Yeah.

So, Scott, now we're kind of talking about this the other day.

This film will make you talk.

This film is really going to make your head spin.

And I want to sort of elaborate on Amy's point.

So I'll start with Amy, and I'll get Scott to take on this, too.

I think by ambiguity of truth, I'm glad that Amy is making the point that I think Amanda Seyfried makes in the film, which is that there are still knowable things here.

And one of the knowable things is Elizabeth Holmes is a fraudster.

Like, that's not really up for debate.

She is.

She was convicted after extensive investigation and a ton of evidence.

And it's not despite her claim that she's never lied in her life or Rich one.

Yeah, that's a big one.

That's really shooting from the moon there, by the way.

Just just go for it.

How often do you lie?

Literally never.

Was never told a lie in my life.

What's a lie?

Yeah.

Well, what are you exactly?

What is a lie?

So I think Amanda Seyfried in the film.

Oh, I don't want to spoil too much here, but anyway, that's a mild spoiler.

But I think she's a voice of truth, because for her, even as she gets more sympathy for the the person that she played on screen, she also never gets away from the fact that, hey, she's she's doing this to herself.

It was her own actions that led her to prison.

And we can feel bad for the mother.

The person, the children, the family.

But that part is still true, that she did all those things.

It's the the ambiguity to me.

Amy is, you know, trying to decipher.

Did she really not get the joke that Nathan Fielder played for her on screen?

And how, if that's possible, how is it possible that this woman raised $1 billion and got the secretary of defense on her board and got some humongous famous people to vouch for her and joined the board of her company?

How did she win them over in person and then suddenly become a person who just doesn't know how basic humans communicate?

And she's just sort of different that way, and she just doesn't get it.

And she's kind of innocent.

I can't I can't square that stuff up.

Amy.

That's why it's such a juicy watch.

Truly, I have a junior in high school, and we're looking at colleges and Elizabeth Holmes went to Stanford.

And if, you know, you told me folks who get into Stanford don't understand the joke.

Who's on first?

I'd be pretty dubious about that claim.

And yet, here she is claiming, you know, that that's her reality.

Yeah.

I mean, I think, you know, we're getting into we're living in a world of where people have, as we remember, alternate, alternate facts, right?

There's like alternate realities.

Some of the most powerful people in this country are living in versions of their own reality, seemingly.

So, Elizabeth Holmes is not alone in seemingly creating a world that is disconnected from all of the facts around her.

But yeah, they raised almost $1 billion.

She was in the rooms with the most powerful people in the country and in the world, raising hundreds of millions of dollars from these people.

Rupert Murdoch, you know, these people are not dummies.

And yet in the film, she's kind of looking at us with an unwavering gaze, telling us she did nothing wrong.

She didn't lie.

She didn't do any of the things she was convicted of.

And just kind of as the film settles on her gaze in those close ups, we are a bit mesmerized.

And it's very tough as a human being to square someone looking at you deeply in your eyes and telling you something that contradicts all the facts.

You.

Yes.

It's true.

Yes.

And not know what to make of that.

So it's a very engaging emotional experience and confusing experience.

So related to that, Scott Pukos, did you leave this film feeling any more sympathy for Elizabeth Holmes?

Oh, I would I was mostly baffled by her.

I wouldn't say I had more sympathy or less.

I mean, they're scenes right before she's about to go to prison and she is emotional about leaving her children.

And I think that a human element.

Yes.

I'm like, okay, that is that's sad.

Of course that is.

Absolutely.

But man.

And she is this movie you mentioned, it's three hours and I was just locked in the entire time at both screenings.

Like it's so compelling.

People have asked me like, when can I go to the bathroom?

And that sort of like, you cannot.

It's the whole thing.

And most of it is just her.

She is so intentional with how she's saying stuff where, like I've met, she absolutely knows what she's doing.

I and the who's on first thing.

So I actually was hanging around at the little last night and saw Meghan Mac after their screening, and one of our friends, BJ a he had a theory about that.

It's like she just had a kid and just probably just zoned out.

And, B.J.

is wrong about that, but go ahead.

I disagree with that too, but I was I was like, oh, but just the fact that she is leaving out, like, I think she's very intentional with their language, but that's the I've heard varying opinions.

A lot of people have told me they think she legit like just didn't was baffled by that or or yeah wasn't paying attention.

So I think that yeah ambiguity it's just is it's so compelling to watch because I'm like who is she.

Like what is going on in in her mind, this film is also a villain story.

And Elizabeth Holmes is not the actual villain of this particular film.

You could make a documentary, and there are documentaries about what happened at Theranos, in which she is definitely the villain.

But in this film, the villain is her husband and and, Amy Adrian, the things people were yelling at the screen when that guy said some of the things in the theater I was in, it was spicy.

People were not enjoying him.

How did you react to him, and did you know anything about him going into this film?

I didn't, I knew nothing about him, and I really didn't know that much about this film either.

I mean, I know who Elizabeth Holmes is, so I took a lot of this was a wild ride that I encourage people to, to go into the film, kind of not reading that much about it.

But yeah, her husband.

But maybe it's not even her husband I've read.

It's maybe her partner, maybe they're not married.

But is, hotel air himself?

His family comes from a lot of money.

And he claims that he met Elizabeth Holmes at a party and didn't know it was Elizabeth Holmes, even though he says the week prior, he had been scouting out Serrano's building for his own company to rent, and she was already, under, you know, in on her trial and that was ongoing.

So I don't know how you don't know who she is.

But, yeah, he is, he's a he's, he's the antagonist.

He is a villain.

He is every husband, partner, boyfriend to, you know, takes the eggs out of your hands and whips them himself because you are just not doing it properly.

I saw this in a theater.

It was an afternoon screening with two other people, and even the three of us kind of gasped at that.

He is every man who says, you know, after she had a baby, she wasn't quite as fit.

Oh, I forgot about that.

Oh my God.

And you, you know, you should see her now.

And everyone's going, but.

Okay, that's your partner who just had your child.

Okay.

You know, but there's the whole thing with.

And I don't want to say too much, but kind of scanning her body so that her image can be used for potentially her children to be able to, like, watch her reading books.

As you know, through I kind of feeding these scans of her and her voice so that some presence of her can be there for her young children when she's in jail.

But also that footage can be used for public use to do whatever they want with including perhaps creating pornographic images of her, which her partner says, oh, it's going to happen anyway, so we might as well just make that available.

Oh my gosh, it's a lot.

Oh my God, I Amy, you're bringing up stuff that I've already forgotten about from the start I like I was so upset about all the other stuff that he did, I forgot that he literally in, you know, after she's been in prison for two years, he is sitting with Nathan Fielder, looking at some of the video in the month before she goes to prison.

And he's like, oh, she's so different.

She has abs now.

Like knowing that you're on camera and like, millions of people are going to see you say this.

And he said it in a way that was like, well, at least now she's fit.

Like it was disapproving of her body a month after giving birth to their second child.

Like, what a sociopath.

I couldn't believe that.

And that's that's one of those there's many of them throughout those, exchanges where you do, I mean, as an audience member, you're concerned for her and Nathan Fielder as the director and, you know, interviewer in the situation is clearly quite worried about Elizabeth Holmes in these moments where he's trying to figure out is she being manipulated, how aware is or psychologically a viewer is.

Do we?

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe accused.

Yeah.

And she claims in her prior relationship with, the, her partner at Theranos, who is also her romantic partner, that he, she claims he was abusive to her.

And though he denies that.

But there's certainly a history of her being in these relationships with very powerful, controlling men.

And yet she's so smart.

And how much is she aware of letting these people be the bad guy to her?

You know, good guy, good cop.

So there's there's a lot of questions.

Yeah.

There you go.

There's some of the layers.

Well, Judy Ann Pittsford wants to weigh in.

Hello, Judy.

Go ahead.

Hi.

Yes, I saw this with two other friends, and we're still talking about it.

We thought the second day it was released.

So I think that.

And you guys can tell me if what you think of this.

I think that fielder let himself become a character in the documentary, and I think it is not even a documentary.

I think it's fast.

And that's why he let himself become a character in it, I think, and on some level, he recognized this was a sales pitch for those two.

That's my feeling about it.

So.

So, Judy, let me let me send that comment over to Adrian.

I really appreciate that interpretation.

Because do you want to just take a minute because we're going to lose the eye?

We could it could have done an hour.

You were right, Scott, because we should done two hours on Amy.

Briefly.

Yeah.

Judy's making the point that all of a sudden, this person who is supposed to be documenting the film is kind of becoming a character in the film, and it becomes it starts to feel like something a little more amorphous.

What do you think?

I mean, that's part of how he makes films, and they're certainly documentarians who are part of their part of the story.

And that's absolutely how he operates.

And the kinds of films that he makes.

But there's some self-awareness about that.

As you see someone in the film call him out and say, maybe you're not including certain elements about her because he has developed, a relationship with her.

There is a limit of care.

Yeah.

So he he kind of acknowledges that.

But yeah, again, this is a woman who has a long track record of convincing very powerful men in particular, to, support her.

Protect her?

You know, etc.. So he wouldn't he wouldn't be the first, this is where Scott Pukos, Bill Simmons might have said it best.

I actually said those words.

Bill Simmons said that Nathan Fielder's whole thing is committing to the bit.

And not letting it go, staying with the Ben, and that's his career.

And Elizabeth Holmes whole thing is committing to the bit.

I've never told a lie in my life.

And it's like you've got these two forces that commit to the bit and they're butting up against each other and it becomes to, I agree with Judy, it becomes something that's not quite a documentary.

It's a little something slightly different.

Or how did you see that?

Yeah.

Nathan.

Yeah.

He he commits to the bet and it's very rare that he breaks character.

But I think she almost got him a few times.

But I think for anyone like I was very familiar with his style.

So I've watched the rehearsal I've watched Nathan for you.

Right.

So I wasn't surprised.

Like, yeah, I think he absolutely is a character.

That is part of the point is that that's his character and and their personalities going together.

I mean, in my in my view, it's solid documentary, but it's I, I get where there's differences than that.

Other docs Judy, thank you so much.

And by the way, if you want to see this, the little has it, when you when is it showing at the little.

So it's playing at least through the end of next week.

We've been selling out, so I recommend people get tickets, online at the little.org.

It's such a weird, cool experience to see with this packed crowd.

The little don't wait till it's like on streaming.

I would say see it in a theater.

And Amy, lastly for you there, you know, I think Nathan Fielder would say if he were on Connections.

Yes.

I wanted you to question if I was too close.

You should be asking about the nature of how you believe things and who your source is and what they're including and not including.

Isn't that kind of part of the lesson here, or am I looking too closely?

Amy.

Sure, yeah.

I mean, that's so, it goes speaks to the irony of the title of the film.

You can see everything.

In fact, Dewey.

Well, documentarians are choosing who to film, how to edit, how to score.

You know what the music is telling us?

There is a construction to telling that story.

So we're seeing a lot there's a lot of processed, openness.

Yeah.

And transparency.

I see, her partners full figure naked in the shower.

Yeah.

There's that, but am I seeing everything?

That was the one thing I didn't want to see.

That was like the everything part that I would have gotten rid of.

But, like, I think that was included for them to say, this guy is actually a narcissist.

Hey, we got a wrap here.

You can see you can see everything at the little or wherever else your films are playing.

But really, the little Amy, you're the best.

Thank you.

Come back and talk to you soon.

Thanks for having me.

It should have been two hours.

I know it's got focus.

You were right.

Thank you very much.

See you at the little.

We'll see you all tomorrow.

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