From six nine news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson and let's go back to start this hour to September of 2008, when a former NASA engineer who loves to cook took on a locavore challenge.

Gene Walczak spent that month going as local as possible.

Even use local salt, local butter, swearing off imported olive oil.

But his deepest passion was hot sauce, and he ended up making something new with the blend of ingredients that are typically grown in our state.

The result was a hot sauce with apple cider vinegar, honey, onions, winter squash.

He didn't have a name for it, but he instantly had fans and he wondered if it could become a viable business.

Two years later, Carma Sauce was officially bottling and selling in places like farmers markets, and Gene was making a mild version and a hot version.

But because Gene is kind of insane, he kept pushing hotter and more adventurous, all while taking a course at Cornell, setting up commercial equipment and learning how to do all the mundane necessities for a business.

Success meant growth, and Gene wanted to keep sourcing locally, which is not easy for hotter peppers.

Eventually, he decided to acquire local land for Carma Sauce and opened a commercial kitchen.

There's a farm in North Bristol and a growing list of employees.

But here's one part of the story I still don't have fully understood.

Somehow, Carmen Sauce ends up invited to send sauces to one of the most popular YouTube shows called Hot Ones, and things have exploded from there.

If you haven't seen hot ones, here's the concept.

The host, Sean Evans, sits down to interview a celebrity.

Bill Murray, Paul Rudd, Malcolm Gladwell today, Selena Gomez, the host and the guest taste through a lineup of ten hot sauces progressively getting hotter.

I'm amazed at how much the guests open up in less than half an hour.

Some, like Ben Stiller, end up in literal tears, begging for more milk.

The heat units go from medium to.

I mean, some of them seem medically dangerous to me.

Carmen sauces have been included in multiple seasons now.

Bill Murray arrived on the show this season, saying he's been looking forward to finally trying karma Sauce.

Lady Gaga loved it.

I'm not sure Gene had that as part of the business plan.

So today on connections, we're doing something we've never really done.

It's going to be unlike any show we've done.

We're welcoming Gene for the first time.

We're going to pay homage to hot ones.

And I want to make it clear here.

This is a total rip off and an homage to hot ones, and we love what they do.

So cheers to Sean and the whole team.

With Hot Ones, we're going to taste through a series of wings with caramel sauce getting progressively hotter.

I have close to zero tolerance for heat.

I'm going to try.

I will probably tap out.

I've got milk everywhere here and I encourage you to watch us on our YouTube channel on the Sky news YouTube channel, just so you can see if I survive the hour.

But Gino Fanelli, my my colleague with Sky investigations editor, is also with us to take the hosting mic if I fall over dead.

Hello, Gino.

Hi.

Happy to be here.

By the way, Gino brought a sauce and it's.

Look at this thing.

Look at this.

This says the sweet tears of Evan Dawson on the sauce.

What is this?

So, the the fun story behind that sauce.

About six months ago, I was doing working on a very sad story involving a house fire on, Bowman Street, and I got talking to one of the neighbors who, I don't know his name.

He refused to tell me his name, but we forgot.

We got talking about the hot sauce somehow, and he gave me a bunch of, Scotch bonnets that I've been fermenting for the past six months with garlic and onion.

And, I process that this morning with, allspice, cinnamon, clove, some honey and, brown sugar.

And it's, you've you've tasted it.

I've tasted it.

Yeah.

It's I like it.

I don't I don't know if you're going to feel the same way.

So, Welcome, Gino.

Thank you for being here.

And Jean old check founder of Karma Sauce.

Great to have you.

Thank you.

Oh, thank you so much.

I was asking Gene beforehand.

Fact check.

True.

You're.

You are an engineer.

He's such a humble guy.

He's like, well, you know, contracting.

But he did work on the James Hub James Webb Telescope, is that right?

The was recently launched, you know and and very happy.

Happy that it's successful right out of the gate a big deal it is.

Yeah I, I was sort of somewhat amazed that I got to work on that.

I had you know, I was working at the G research labs and after our kids were born and I was like, hey, can we move back to Rochester?

You know, from there, you know, Monday and the family, we have in-laws in the area.

And, you know, I came back to work at what was now, I think it was before Harris.

It was zealous.

I think just after it, you know, it was Kodak just changed the name on the on the front of the building over the years, and they said, hey, we we have the there's a segmented telescope thing that no one wants to work on essentially.

And or it's it was challenging and weird.

So I was like gravitated to that right away.

And it was really an exciting project.

You know, I worked on for, for almost the better part of ten years.

Amazing story there.

I mean, that's its own hour.

But we're going to get to the tasting here because I know that's why people are going to be following along on YouTube.

They're going to see how Gino handles this.

and before we get right into tasting, let me just say a couple things here.

Watching Hot Ones is where I learned of the term Scoville unit, is that right?

That's correct.

So that is a unit of heat.

And we're going to be with each sauce.

We'll have Gene and Gino tell us a little bit about what we know about how hot they are.

Is it a pure measure of heat?

Is it spiciness?

I mean like how do you describe it?

So the original method was, Orville Scoville came up with this, idea.

I think it was, almost a century ago roundabout.

And it was based on a dilution ratio.

So you just have, like a standardized sugar solution and you would take some pepper juice and then dilute it with sugar solution.

So you didn't notice the heat.

So some testers couldn't tell.

and that's how the scale came about.

So you know, you can dilute it 100 to 1.

But I think that's that's a 100 shoe.

And if you have to diluted 1 million to 1, that's a million and so forth okay.

And now they use high pressure liquid chromatography typically to measure that.

Now the test itself is designed for peppers only.

And typically they dry them.

They do some pre-processing and there's calibrations involved and all that.

But for the most part, when people do things on the market, they don't really.

It's kind of the Wild West.

That's why I, I hesitate to use that terminology when I, when I can, because it's just not mostly the numbers you hear you really can't believe unless it's like an industrial ingredient where it's like, okay, here's some cayenne and it's 65 shoe Scoville heat units, or it's an extract of some kind, like what's a Tabasco sauce?

I believe that is in the 40 or 50 range off from thousand 40 or 50,000.

Yeah, it's somewhere in there.

Maybe it's 20,000.

I'm not.

Like I said, I'm not an encyclopedia of of these numbers because I tend to avoid them.

I know them for a few of the specialty peppers.

Okay.

The range is off the top of my head.

And what you're about to see.

Are you tasting?

Are you going to taste with us too?

Gene, I did, I didn't sign up for tasting.

I can though I know I you don't have to do you know.

And I are the test subjects, right.

And Gino loves this stuff, I think I do.

Yeah.

Okay.

a brief story about me.

And then I want to read an email, and then we're going to get right into it.

When I was 15 years old, I one of my first jobs, I was a busboy at a restaurant, and I came in through the kitchen one day and the chef said, hey, Evan, everyone's taste in this sauce that we got, and I can't, I have to edit this story.

It's the kitchen talk.

He said, you don't have any blank if you want, try this.

And I was like, well, I've have blank.

You know, I'm 15 years old.

I can handle it.

He puts a dollop on a cracker just like this, and I'm like, that's all you're going to give me this little fingernail size?

He said, that's all you need.

Well, I eat the cracker.

I was in the fetal position for half an hour, and I was trying to sit up and drink ice water.

And then finally, after half an hour, somebody was like, you need milk, man.

That's why we've got this.

As Ben Stiller said, prophylactic milk on this program here, which I will be drinking before and after each taste.

that was Dave's insanity sauce, which has 180,000 Scoville units.

Dave's insanity sauce has been, I think it's been featured on Hot Ones.

Yeah.

Early on they were doing more off the shelf sauces, and then they got into when they started working with Noah and Heaton, as they started doing more custom stuff for every episode and kind of rolling, doing a preview of each season and so forth, and the only one that he left on the show that's still kind of in that vein is called The Bomb, and that's the one that all the guests really hate.

And it's nearly killed Ben Stiller.

Yeah, yeah.

And the reason the the funny thing is, so there were more extract socks early on, but Noah's philosophically against using any abstract.

So that's the only one that's left.

And that the extracts can vary.

And how they're made, the quality and how they present in the, the ones that were used in those early super hot sauces tend to be pretty nasty chemical tasting and yeah, unpleasant.

Well, I couldn't handle 180,000 Scoville units.

Gino probably could.

I have had Dave and Sandy before.

Do you like it?

No, I don't, I mean, that's one of like the early, like, extreme hot sauces, just like hot.

For the sake of hot.

It was more a novelty than anything else, I think.

And, very different from, I would like heat wise, things like Ghost Island that The Karamazov started, actually similar to that.

But and actually, that's one of my favorite sauces because I think we're tasting what's the highest Scoville.

We're going I don't know what Gino's.

You don't know what yours is.

Is that correct?

It's it's it's very hot.

I can promise you that.

Okay.

You can put whatever number you want on it.

Okay.

What size we're going with you?

I don't know, but I might try the Ashes to Ashes.

that's probably about a million, you know, very a very small dish.

But you'll, you know, you'll feel it for quite a while.

It's got like a million Scoville units, you know, 180,000 nearly killed me when I was 15.

Let's go to a million.

Although it is different.

I again, we're going to be talking through this, so let's start.

Let's let's just go.

Let's taste and let's go.

Gene, what are we starting with here.

See.

What do we got?

I, I thought Vince was leading the test.

Oh, well.

But let's see our friend Vince over here.

This is a packed studio.

He's got.

You got gloves on.

Why?

Why do you got gloves on me?

Oh, gosh.

He's because he doesn't want a bite.

Yeah.

Small bit.

Oh, there you go.

Start on some of the sauces and I'll bring some.

All right I see I see he's going to.

Yeah okay.

So my, my serving these up.

Yeah I would say pick pick what you want them I see I'm on an audio.

I just want to say it's a different kind of experience.

we're going to do our best.

Describe it for you.

And if you're watching on the YouTube channel I'm already sweating, so I, I don't have gloves with me here.

So I'm going to go ahead and just use these tasting spoons that you can I'm not handling any of your food items.

Okay.

these are tasting spoons.

Okay.

Oh, now I have gloves.

Look at that.

It's magic.

There we go.

so what are we starting with?

Let's start with lift off, which is on the current season.

And I was especially excited about this sauce being on the current season because usually they asked me to do something super hot.

So I'm only punishing the guests.

So, you know, it gives you a bit of a heavy wrap.

So let's let's actually listen to two of the celebrities who have tried Lift Off.

first is Lady Gaga, if we could.

So, Lady Gaga, this season of Hot ones, was one of the people who was tasting through.

And this is Lady Gaga experiencing what we're about to taste, which is lift off.

lift off.

I don't think I can lift off in this dress.

Tie flavors.

Yeah.

Me citrusy.

Catch the, kind of lemongrass.

Yummy.

After there.

Yeah.

Really good.

That's Lady Gaga.

She loved it.

And, I love that Bill Murray shows up on the show, and he's like, I've been meaning to try karma, like, let's do this and let's listen to Bill Murray.

This is karma Sauce, which I'm overdue for.

Reminds me a little bit of P.F.

Chang's.

I'm sure that's what they were going for.

Well, I think it is.

It's good.

I like this one.

I go two for two.

Bill loved it too.

So, I mean, I haven't seen anybody who hasn't loved it.

I'm going.

You want to taste it?

Gino?

You and I taste it, and then you tell us about it here.

Okay, so first I want to back up a little bit and tell you that Bill Murray, when he says it's like P.F.

Chang's, that's the highest possible compliment because he actually offered to work there for free, I think, a few years ago.

So he's a really huge fan of that.

So I'm going to take that as a win.

so what we have here is, I like a green serrano.

We take a vinegar and infuse it with lemongrass and going gong kaffir lime leaf, a little Thai basil, some cool Cointreau, which is a cousin of cilantro, which I can talk about if you want to know more about that.

And, yeah, just kind of make it a bright green flavor.

You could.

Same thing here, Vince.

You could use this, you know, on a on a nice noodle salad, as we have here, with a little bit of buckwheat noodles and, cucumber.

I also found that it's kind of a it's an interesting alternative to Jimmy puree on the cracker or the crackers themselves are quite salty, so it kind of distracts a little bit from the flavor.

But, that's why we normally just do tasting spoons.

But we're using crackers because sometimes we find people who have a lower tolerance to do better with something to cut it.

So that's me.

Low talent.

That's delicious.

I mean, in my world, that's hot.

Do you know, in your world, that's it's warm.

It has some warmth to it, but it's not.

I really like that, actually.

I mean, there's it's bright, it's vibrant.

It's, it's got like a really nice character to it, and it's like just the right amount of heat where, like, on those noodles, it just compliments it really well.

It doesn't overpower anything beautiful.

That is very nice.

Yeah.

So we were that's a number two on the lineup based on the feedback I've been getting I'm surprised some people are finding a little bit more zingy.

And I think we may update the label to call it more of a medium.

But it's about an 8000 Scoville unit.

Yeah.

So it's pretty pretty low 8000 Scoville unit.

So okay, we're starting low for me.

I'm already going like oh, you know, that's that's but that's Handleable, Wendy writes the program and says please discuss that.

The ability to tolerate sauces with a higher Scoville rating is not a sign of machismo, since our ability to perceive heat is partly genetic, some tongues are born with more of the receptors that react to cap.

Capsaicin.

Capsaicin?

Yeah.

Capsaicin also says if you can't taste test the sauce, you can look at the ingredients, not the name.

The names are a lot of fun, but of hot peppers are all that's in there.

Where's the rest of the flavor?

Give me flavor.

That's from Wendy in Rochester.

What do you think, Gene?

you know, there is a lot to be said for looking at the label and what's in it and how things are put together.

as, you know, I guess the listeners should know, we use a lot of we grow a lot of peppers, and we tend to use fresh peppers whenever we can.

what separates what we do from a lot of everything else is that, there's a there's sort of a industrial product called a pepper mash.

That's where they add 12% salt to it.

And that enables you to, you know, put it in a shipping container and move it around the world without any refrigeration.

And those are fermented, but they're not the most pleasant fermented peppers you can get.

And that's why a lot of hot sauces do taste similar to each other is because they're made out of that, and the process is such that a lot of the high notes and the flavor that you get in peppers sort of dissipate in those products, and you don't you don't get what you're looking for.

Do you agree with Wendy that this is not about machismo?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean let's go backwards on that.

So yeah, I definitely agree with that.

You'd be surprised.

People's tolerances are all over the place.

There is a certain macho aspect to folks that try to keep increasing their tolerance, which will happen naturally if you eat hot peppers, your tolerance is just going to go up.

But I don't make a point of that.

My tolerance is already high enough that if I were to work on that, it would make me unrelatable to the milder end of the spectrum and make it harder for me to develop new formulas that are have broad appeal.

So I don't think it's a it doesn't work for me that that way.

But, you know, kids like if they there's the 15 year olds that come over, give me your hottest thing.

Yeah.

I mean there's always these internet challenges now, but Bill Murray was a machine.

Did you know, did you see the Bill Murray upset?

I did not oh my gosh.

I mean here's a machine.

He just went right through the lineup.

I don't think he blinked at any point, did he?

I mean, no, he didn't he didn't blink at it.

And he also didn't make a big deal about the fact he wasn't blinking.

He was just very matter of fact in doing it.

I mean, I thought he was really great.

He was amazing.

And it's also one of the best interviews I've ever seen with Bill Murray.

So credit to the Hot Ones team.

They get people to really come out of their shell and Bill Murray is just himself.

He's telling great stories.

Okay, what's second on our lineup today after liftoff?

Where are we going to go next?

Here, gene ghost I guess we're going to Ghost Island, which is a big step.

I don't ghost Island implies ghost peppers.

Right.

Okay.

Which one is Ghost Island?

okay.

Go.

Ghost.

Or do you want to go one night?

just go one notch up.

You want to do.

Oh.

Hooping?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Whoo hoo hoo!

Pina seems less, it says mild on the bottle.

Let's do this one.

Yeah.

So that's actually backwards.

And that's the.

The problem is, all I've got is liftoff extreme from, And these I have, like, three super hops in front of me, and that's all I can reach.

Those are for Geno.

Okay, so we're having a little logistics problem.

That's all.

That's okay.

And there's no logistics problem at all here.

So I'm just going straight off the spoon.

Yeah.

Oh boy okay let's get Geno to get this as well.

if you're just joining us Geno check is our guest in studio here on a connections episode unlike any other Gina is the founder of Karma Sauce.

This is a Rochester company.

And, they have grown like crazy in recent years.

Gina, is this really interesting science background?

He and his wife moved back to Rochester and about 15 years ago really got into the sauce business and it has exploded.

Karma is everywhere, including being in multiple seasons of the show.

Hot Ones, a YouTube show in which celebrities of which I am not one but Gino is taste through a lineup and see if they can handle it.

So you ready?

I'm already taken.

You've already taken.

This is more your speed.

Yeah.

This is.

I'm gonna.

I'm gonna taste this.

You guys want.

You guys want to talk about this one?

Here.

I'll taste.

And you guys have a conversation.

Sure.

So this is, really designed to be very approachable.

And what you should think about with this sauce is, is like a tacos al pastore.

Or you can get a little fine, like something that would go with pineapple and monk fruit or pork, on a taco.

Or if you want to, you know, be heretical and put it on a pizza, that's fine too.

So give me one of those crackers.

Just I, I could eat this all day.

This is this is just a nice, sweet, tropical characteristic, too.

There's a little bit of just warmth on the end of it, but compared to the last one, it's barely even noticeable.

That is.

Yeah, most of the time, nice.

Most of the pepper in that one is just smoked yellow bell.

Use a little gadget girl to give you that nice little color and just a little bit of Attaching to it but very very mild.

You're going to go to Ghost Island instead of this one.

I saw it, but it was the mildest thing I spotted across the table.

I'm sorry.

That is that's delicious to me.

and just in terms of heat, this is a big step below lift off in terms of my perception of the heat of this.

Yeah, it is, it is.

What's the Scoville units on this?

I was probably almost zero.

I'd be like 100 or so.

Don't say that.

Tell me it's like 5000.

No, no, it's okay.

I say we go to Ghost Island next.

Okay.

Well, I apparently we're going straight to ghost.

Well, actually, I think we should give you one more pleasant opportunity before we head off to head out that far.

Maybe, like, the cosmic dumpling would be a good choice of some things that are approachable.

That sounds good right there.

The third one over there.

There you go, Vince.

okay, so tell us about Cosmic Dumpling here.

So cosmic dumpling is something that I came up with a couple of years ago.

You know, whenever I, like, get, like, say, Chinese dumplings, you know, whether it's, you know, pork or chicken steamed or whatever, I would tend to just doctor up the sauce that came with the order with my own hot sauces and whatnot.

And so one day, I just decided that maybe I should just take that to the nth degree and put that in a bottle.

And so that's what you have.

There is some, some idea of how I might take a typical dumpling sauce and tweak it.

And it turns out to be great for punching up stir fry.

It's like to me this is like a, a takeout repair kit.

If you got some takeout that's not working for you, and you just, you can kind of dress it up a little bit with that sauce.

So it's got a lot of yummy.

It's a little bit of a fruitiness to it.

From the orange, a little sesame.

It uses a gluten free tamari as well.

We try to, you know, soy is one of the few allergens we allow in the factory, but we have to have specialized hoses and change everything over to do that.

So how many Scoville units on this one?

I don't know, but it's probably around a thousand, maybe 500.

Oh, this should be.

It says it says it's medium.

Yeah, it's the medium to you, Gina.

Finally.

I don't really get any heat out of this, but it's very tasty.

It reminds me of, like, like a ponzu base, which, like, it seems similar to what's in here.

that spoke to Marion Lemon.

Everything.

That's.

It's very nice.

that's really pleasant.

I would say, as someone who's kind of avoided heat and not.

I mean, I like spice, I avoid extreme heat to what I think are extreme heat.

The variety of flavor we've already tasted in three sauces is amazing here.

I mean, I know, I know, you take a lot of pride in that, but I am really impressed.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you so much.

So let's go to the ghost.

Should we do it?

Go into the ghost.

Yeah.

We can skip over.

Holy moly.

That's a whole story unto itself.

But.

Oh, boy.

Okay, tell me about how many Scoville units on the ghost before we hit it.

I haven't calculated it, but it's probably getting into maybe the 100 K range, but it's not going to be anything like Dave's insanity.

So I.

You know, it's a question.

You know, I kind of wonder about.

Little bit is easy there fence.

Yeah.

I mean it might be 50,000.

You know it's not it's it's scarier sounding than it is tasting it.

This is going to be Evan's favorite.

It's it's a we also have that on the, don't taste it yet.

You know when you get it.

So this was, the first sauce I had from caramel sauce was on the Ghost Island, and it's still my favorite one.

it's it's just so.

Oh, so you've tasted this?

I never I think I have, like, a couple bottles of this at my house.

it's it's just I feel like this is, like, almost a perfect Thai sauce.

It's got a great flavor.

It's just enough heat.

Okay, I'm going to take a little prophylactic milk, and we're going to try to have a conversation as if we're not even tasting the sauce until it makes until it hits me.

Because I've got a question for Gene.

It's got a little bit of heat, but nothing.

Nothing bad.

Oh.

Q come on, man.

All right, here we go.

I'm also serving a, a garbage spoon.

A garbage spoon with this on it.

Yeah.

Ooh, that gene came up with.

All right.

No.

Why am I scared?

You ready?

Why am I scared?

You don't be scared.

Let's go for it.

This is all just creation.

Just.

Just do.

Oh, there it is.

Okay.

Oh, boy.

it's, it's it's very, it actually has flavor.

It doesn't just taste like heat.

It's a great flavor.

Yeah, yeah.

You can start to see why people hit a wall with their ability to talk.

Gene, tell us a little bit about how in the world you ended up on hot ones to begin with.

this is the part of the story I don't know.

Yeah.

So this is, people ask me that a lot, especially with people who make hot sauce.

it goes back to 2013.

So, you know what?

I had tried to find someone else to make the commercialize the sauce that I came up with, you know, as part of our locavore challenge.

And, it just didn't I wasn't able to close to get, existing what's called a co-packer to do things.

The way that I wanted them done.

Now, there's an advantage today because we have places like the commissary just down the street where somebody starting out can rent space and do their own thing.

There wasn't anything like that locally when I started, so I'm really glad to see that here now.

And we've been a supporter of the commissary.

so, you know, after going round and round, my wife said, you know, why don't you just build it, build it here?

So I built this garage, built up my garage, and I do that.

I get all the sauces going.

I have my little website on WordPress and, know a chamber?

This guy sends me a message on my little podunk site saying, hey, I like what you're doing.

I'm all about these, you know, all natural, small, handmade hot sauces.

I'd like to have you, you know, send me some samples.

I do this thing at this flea market.

I think it's called the night market.

So he's operating out of this, you know, flea market down in, in Brooklyn and just, you know, over time, you know, he had a brick and mortar.

He was getting it.

Being in New York, he was getting some nice press, whether it's from The New York Times or, you know, ESPN, he got got a few.

He was a good marketer.

And it was really the relationship with him going back years before Hot Ones took off, that I was able to become engaged because he ended up being the heat in.

It was, you know, not not to be confused with local hedonist, the the excellent the chocolate cream and chocolate shop.

This is heat hedonist.

And so it's a little play on words on that.

But that's the name of his business.

And he ended up getting this gig being sort of the the retail arm and, you know, curator in part or curator collaborator with the folks, that run hot ones to select sources.

So it around the time out that, my work on the James Webb Space Telescope was wrapping up, you know, I mentioned to him that I was going to go full time into this, which was a bit risky.

And, it's it's sort of a chicken and egg thing.

He said, hey, you know, Chris, Chris Schoenberg, you know, the producer, like, would like to put extreme karma on the sauce on the show.

So I was like, you know, blown away by that because I actually I only learned about the show three months before that, when I was at a party with someone who a friend of mine who had worked for me for a little bit, you must have seen the show and thought, that's instant goals if we're on there.

Oh yeah, I was that, So it was a house warming party in, Penfield and, you know, Taylor, Parnell was like, hey, I'm having it.

We're having this housewarming party.

I'm going to have some friends over there.

Like hot sauce, too.

We're gonna have your sauces and have some other sources, like come in there and then all these sauces line up on the table, and there's this show playing.

I'm like, they're eating wings on this show with this with people being interview, and these people are all eating also eating wings in this room that I'm standing in and I.

So I learned more about it than I is.

That's when I found out that Noah was involved in the show.

And I'm like, how do I bring this up?

And it worked out.

I mean, do you send a sample and they go, yeah, let's do it.

Or is that did they recruit you at some point?

It's tricky.

You know, they they do go out recruiting.

And actually I have had you know I don't I don't have any contract with them to recruit.

But I will give them referrals when I see them.

And they have a pretty narrow filter for what they're looking for.

This, you know, this is sort of an arc of the design of the show itself in terms of how they want the different, you know, every place.

They've got an idea for how they want it to ride along.

It's not like they're going to pick all of the seven chipotle sauces in a row.

And they, you know, they're sticklers for, you know, that handmade all natural ingredient thing.

So even Zanten gum in a sauce will take them out of contention.

So it's a harder for them to find sauces that they want to use.

And you would think, well, I mean, and I want to get a question from our colleague Katie, who says, as a massive fan of hot ones, I'd love some insider and fun Sean on the team.

As a supplier, do you have to sign a waiver that your products won't maim anyone?

Well, we are well insured, you know, so there's that.

And these can be some of these products hurt people.

I mean, if you anything could hurt anyone if they do it the wrong way.

But it's a glass bottle.

So yeah, there's, there's that.

But, from ingesting yet they're all pretty much everything here is allergen free in front of us.

So I don't I would say probably not.

You'd have to do something.

You know, people are imaginative.

They could find ways to cause problems.

But the nominally.

No.

And Sean in the team have been good to work with.

Oh, great.

I mean, it's not like it's even a pay to play thing, which I very well could be.

Right.

So there are they're very generous with the, with who they let on the show and you know, paying fairly for everything.

And in a way that's really, laudable.

And, it's been a real privilege to, to be able to work with them.

Do you know, I'm just going to keep stalling and asking questions so we don't have to taste any more sources.

What do you think?

No, I think we should move on.

you know, Scott.

Let's go.

Let's get another.

I saw what you were doing, and we're not going to keep doing that.

I have one more question, and then here's what we're going to do.

We're going to prepare the next set of lineup here.

After our only break, we're going to I, we're going to taste Gino's.

We're going to do other crazy things.

But briefly here, let me ask let me ask Gina, Jean, just briefly here, how much has being on hot ones grown the business for you?

tremendously to get.

I started out of the garage, you know, just about six years ago.

So it was just me that I had one person helping me.

And now we've got, you know, including myself, a team of 15.

So it's been, really, really great.

I mean, and the fact that we actually what's not as well known as, like, the sauce in front of you, Los Clientes.

So you see, this doesn't say Carmel sauce on any where.

It just says hot one.

So, we had I had done up a really strange, boutique, fennel, strawberry sauce for heat.

Anise that, that they request.

They wanted to do something really novel and special and that was fun, but it was very low volume.

And then a few months later, they're like, well, we want you do another custom sauce for us.

And I start working on it.

And then I have all these.

I set them six completely different sources.

And my wife says, don't send them the green one because I want that one.

And then said, of course I'm going to send the green one.

And after that they said, by the way, do we mentioned this is going to be the next hot one sauce.

And so, it's been a huge hit.

And it really it's their number one seller of the hot ones.

Branded sauces are the ones that are made here in Rochester.

So it's a great story as we go to break, let's listen.

Maybe we can listen to the David Blaine cut.

David Blaine was on Cosmic disco.

Which sauce?

So David Blaine the magician on when he was on Hot Ones.

The caramel sauce on the line of that day was Cosmic Disco, which I think we're going to taste after the break.

David Blaine loved it.

Let's listen to what David Blaine said.

So this next one has kind of a fun name cosmic Disco here in the seven spot.

It's a party.

We'll see.

Wow, this one's great.

Taste wise, this is, like, amazing.

Now this one's amazing.

This is so far.

This is my fate.

Why wait?

No, seriously.

Because this I respect it.

And David Blaine, we're going to keep going here after this break.

Pizza wizard, joining us on the YouTube chat says, I got $10 that says Evan goes out after three sauces.

We've done three.

We've got more to go after this break.

Let's come right back with general check from Karma Sauce.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Friday on the next connections.

In our first hour, a guest joins us from Europe with an eye on what's happening in Denmark and Greenland.

Now that the United States has said the president wants to take Greenland, we'll talk about it then.

In our second hour, the time to revive is back.

Landmarks.

Society choosing five institutions, buildings, places locally that need some love and care.

Now, Americans say they're more and more worried about bird flu as the virus has spread to some humans.

But new research suggests that defenses built up from past flu seasons may help protect us against bird flu.

While this is a bit of a silver lining, this does not mean that we should all feel like we're safe.

That story on the next Morning Edition from NPR news.

Tomorrow morning at five.

This is unlike any connections we've ever done.

You can see I've shed the vest.

It is hot in here already.

Gene, old Jack is is our guest from Karma Sauce, which is a Rochester sauce company.

and he's generous enough to bring some of these sauces in that have become really huge hits in the marketplace, thanks in part to the YouTube show Hot Ones, that has hundreds of millions of views over their multiple seasons.

And many celebrities have had the chance now to taste karma and love what they've tasted.

But they get progressively hotter on the show.

Gino Fanelli, my colleague, is going to be taking over the interview portion because there's no way I'm going to be able to talk in a moment.

I just don't do do heat well, but I'm hanging in as best we can.

And I want to say Daniel, joining us on the YouTube chat says Gene is underselling himself when it comes to his accomplishments at Kodak and IT and Excel and Harris.

He has multiple patents.

He developed a novel testing system for the James Webb Space Telescope and then did a a Jim Brown and retired to go into movie making and hot sauce making.

So pretty good career.

Yeah.

It's been, I, I pinch myself, you know, it's, I've got kind of a, you know, a melancholy glass half full disposition, naturally.

So it's, you know, it's really crazy to think about what I have done, even though sometimes the daily stuff gets you, you know?

Okay.

Refocused.

We've got cosmic.

Is this cosmic disco on the spoon here?

Is that what's happening right now?

Cosmic.

That's it.

It's cosmic.

Just this is one that David Blaine not only loved, but he was, you know, it was hot, and Sean Evans was saying, you know, props to you.

This one's hot.

So, do you know, have you tasted it yet?

I have not had this one.

Well we're okay.

Go ahead.

Gene.

I was going to just say I could I can make these comments while you're.

You're feeling it.

I'll just.

I'll taste it.

I'll come of while you while you're playing take my everything.

It's going to keep shedding clothing items because it's hot in here.

do you know why don't you taste first?

I'll talk to you while you're tasting.

Tell me what your taste in there.

It's sweet on the forefront.

It is hot.

It is absolutely hot.

Even for you.

You're not going to like this.

It's.

So you're not going to enjoy what's about to happen.

So this brings up the problem that David Blaine's review, you know, reveals is when you compare your experience to his is that it's very difficult to evaluate the flavor profile when you're way underwater on your heat tolerance.

So I get, you know, occasion.

This is one of those sauces where it might be too much.

It's flavorful, but it's really too hot for almost everyone.

Just a little bit too hot.

Just it's on the flow of too hot.

That's the end of the problem.

You know, you're taking over the interview.

Okay.

Yes.

You're taking over.

Well, I mean, immediately, there's a lot of very complex flavors and I'm like trying to pick it apart.

And then the heat just kind of washes it all out.

So it but it does have a really nice flavor to it.

Evan, I was told that you you, formerly played on an adult soccer league.

Now, I wonder if you could compare that to youth or, you know, club soccer.

What what what do adults do that really sets it apart from the pack?

I can't even think about what you're saying.

What was the question?

I don't know, something about soccer.

I want to say, though, it.

Don't touch the eyes.

Oh, go I yeah, I was too close to my eyes.

There.

That's a classic Shannon line.

Oh, hold on, I need more milk.

I want to say, though, about I keep on, I can't talk.

You're from Ohio originally, correct?

That's right.

How do you feel about the, the plight of the Plain Dealer over the past?

that's a past decade.

The Plain Dealers down, the 30 journalists.

They used to have three.

Shame.

330 journalists at the Plain Dealer when I was growing up.

And now there are 30.

So.

Yeah.

How do you how do you think print media could survive in this current marketplace?

Gina's doing a great job keeping me not thinking about the heat.

I'm worried about print a lot.

I, I love what print journalists do.

I think it's one of the lifeblood of our society.

I'm very worried about it.

I'm worried about me.

I want to say, though, I'm a little surprised because when Gina, you sit on the front end of, cosmic disco.

Was that sweet, right?

Yeah.

The sweet hits you first.

Absolutely.

And then the heat comes in like a wave and you go, wow, that was a lot of heat.

And then it goes more and you go, oh, that's a lot of heat.

And then you go, oh, like, it's going to be important to keep breathing.

So it was a this progression for me.

But the sweet is there like I, I can see why people who tolerate heat better than me love that.

That's really interesting.

That's not just heat, that's flavor.

There's a fantastic flavor to that.

And I that'd be really good on pizza.

Like just a few drops.

it's just got enough that, the heat is kind of worth it.

that it does balance both ways.

Really good.

Pretty hot.

what's the Scoville unit on this one?

you know, I would say that's probably more like a true 200,000 about there.

I don't I couldn't, we haven't I haven't done the math on that lately, so.

Okay.

It's actually a mash up sauce of the when you tried earlier, the cosmic dumpling.

And then the sauce that we had on, just, like a season or a few seasons before called Scorpion Disco.

So that was just the idea that I sold them.

And I'm like, let's just.

You could blend these two sauces together and it works out.

Now, I was thinking 5050.

They decided to go 7030 on the show.

So that's why it's a little a little higher than I would have preferred.

When does it, stop doing what it's doing in my mouth, which is now it's traveling to the front and my lips are burning.

Why is that happening?

You know, different kept saying, oh, compounds hit different parts of, nerve receptors.

And so there's some that are more throat heat back, some that burn longer.

I don't know, all of the, the, the micro details of how that works, but it is known that, like die, capsaicin hits differently than capsaicin.

They all tested different Scoville units per, you know, mole or whatever.

You're.

I got to stay away from my my eyes.

Yeah, that definitely do that because I keep wiping my forehead.

Okay.

so that's.

I'm with you, though, you know, like, if you love hot.

This is remarkable.

And I'm not just saying this because genes here, gene is not gonna be offended if there's a sauce I don't like.

Right?

I mean, like, we're all human beings.

Can't like everything, right?

That's true.

It can't like everything.

So far, I've liked everything.

But, I mean, that's that one would kill me, though, so I. I'd have to stay away from that for safety reasons.

For myself.

The flavor is really remarkable.

You know, you wouldn't you would put that on.

What what would you do with that?

You know, like I said, pizza.

I think it'd be great on pizza.

And you know, what I really like about I was listening, but I kind of blacked out.

What?

what I really like about, what LA Caramel Sauce does and kind of different when, like, I started getting into, like, really spicy foods, and I was, like, growing peppers and stuff.

Like, a lot of the hot sauce was kind of just, let's see how hot we can make it without any other real flavor to it.

But I think like these sauces do is like they combine these really complex flavors that they both kind of capture the essence of the pepper, which the different chilies do have very different flavors.

And it it gives the heat like a reason, like there's such an intense flavor of, you know, the sweetness and the depth of the different spices in that, that the heat doesn't feel like it's out of place, that it's just meant to be as hot as it could possibly be.

It's meant to be a positive experience on different levels there.

so that's what I like about these sort of they're, they really have like this.

There's, there's an art to making them and they're, they're good.

That's it.

That's a pretty good review there.

What do you think?

I like that Gino is Gino is an not only a great journalist, I mean a great investigative reporter.

He's an awesome beer writer and food writer.

And so you can tell the man's thought about this.

You know, I want to warn you, if we don't get to yours next, I may not get to it.

So if we've got to do it, do you want to do it?

I mean, let's do it.

What I suggest, if we if we're okay with an audible, is Gino made this sauce?

If you're just joining us.

I made it this morning.

Oh, yeah, I can't I can't read without glasses.

The tears of Evan Dawson, the sweet tears of Evan, sweet tears of Evan Dawson.

so we'll try that one.

And, And then why don't you taste whatever you want out of the remaining list here, and I'll just be probably on the floor.

All right.

Something like that.

Well, with what little time we have enough, I guess.

What's the hottest one we have?

well, that's, you're asking to go straight to the hottest.

Go to the straight to the hottest.

Yeah.

So.

So there's a bit of Ashes to Ashes that, Vince is holding up there.

I think is technically the hottest, but there is disagreement between, samples of that and burn after eating.

the sources are very different in their design, other than they both.

Oh, easy there, fella.

They have super hot peppers in them.

Okay.

And a lot, but, burn after eating is is very, very low sweetness like zero sweetness almost.

And Ashes to Ashes has just a little bit of sugar to it to make you say, oh, that wasn't so bad before it hits you so.

Okay, so it's just different design, general.

I'm trying to imagine what regular connections listeners who are just joining the program now are going like, what am I listening to?

What you are listening to is a conversation with Jean old chick, who is Jean is the founder of a sauce company.

It's called Karma Sauce and it has blown up.

It is, yeah, it's become a very, very big deal in the sauce world, thanks in part to the show we've been talking about.

In the show, we're sort of emerging, which is called Hot Ones.

It's a YouTube show.

They've done like 25, 26 seasons, something like that now.

So yes.

Yeah.

And Selena Gomez's episode just dropped today.

Bill Murray was on the season.

Lady Gaga, tasting karma sauces.

So Jean sauces have been in the lineup of ten sauces per episode.

And celebrities love this stuff.

I mean, they they keep coming back for it.

So we thought, we've got to bring in Jean.

We got to do this.

I can't handle heat very well.

My colleague Gino Fanelli can.

And Gino made this sauce, so, okay.

Do you have a Gino?

I did, I we both took it down already.

Yeah, we we jumped ahead a little.

Jean, what did you think?

I really, really like it.

I like the, the all spice in that kind of, fall ish kind of a vibe.

Yeah.

The warming spices.

It's very, very warm and round.

It's excellent.

It's.

I got a little jerk background to it.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I would, I would love this on some jerk chicken or, you know, an empanada would be great.

I don't think I'm gonna have to tap out.

I think I can stay in it because.

So what you'll notice about this one.

There's so much flavor in this.

You did an amazing job, Gino.

Thank you.

The heat will build a little bit.

Yeah, it's building, but it doesn't hit right away, at least for me.

And the front palate hits the, like the back palate.

Yeah.

This one it's more.

It's more on the back deep.

Like deep in your throat is where it is hammering me now.

But on the front, on the front end it's sweet with all those interesting flavors.

That one I can almost do.

So here's one thing that has happened to you in the past 40 or so or so minutes, is that your tolerance has already shifted a little bit by virtue of having tasted all these hot sauces.

So now I couldn't have started with that one.

Probably you might have.

You might have felt it would have hit differently earlier on.

And that's caused me some trouble when I was working on recipes like Ghost Island.

You know, I worked on this other sauce cherry bomb, in the morning and in the evening one day, and I was working on the Ghost Island later.

And my wife has a much lower tolerance for me.

So I went back and tried the cherry bomb.

I was like, wow, this isn't even hot at all, honey.

Try this.

This is great.

You're in.

Love it.

And I was wrong.

So that's one of the things about ratings on the sauces is like, it's better to overestimate the heat for customers because that way there, they may disappoint.

They may be disappointed if it's not as hot as they hoped, but other people who get a sauce as much hotter than they hope are more than disappointed.

So in general, why is why is my nose running now after tasting your sauce?

I there's like these physiological responses that I can't quite pinpoint.

But, you know, it's funny because some people have completely different reactions to it.

Like, it doesn't make my nose run or eyes water, you know, unless it's like, like eating like a straight ghost chili or I have no tears, no tears, but I'm going to try to hang in on this next one.

What is the next one?

This is Ashes to Ashes and you don't have.

You might see that I removed a lot of the sample that Vince gave me, and I recommend you do the same.

Just like a little, a little smear of it is all you really need.

Is this the sample you gave me?

Where is it?

Oh, it's right there.

Oh, yeah.

Thank you.

Okay.

Do you know, have you tried it?

I haven't, and I'm just looking at it.

I'm a little concerned.

But if you're concerned okay.

Cheers.

Good luck.

I'm going to wait.

I'm going to wait.

You go first because I have to.

Somebody got to do the interviewing.

If I'm debilitated, you're going to have to take over.

Do you know how many Scoville units here, by the way, Gene, what do you think it should be?

About a million, you know, by the arithmetic of the peppers that are in it.

Although the right now it's not affecting me at all.

Which is funny, I but it's a very pod forward.

But by that we mean very, very pepper forward compared to anything you have.

It's really almost pure pepper, just a little bit of sweetness and vinegar.

You know, I, I'm worried because it didn't like hit immediately.

And now I'm kind of feeling it.

Okay.

Build up a little bit okay.

so Gene, you said this is more pepper driven.

I mean, is more kind of pure pepper and flavor, right?

It is almost 70% pepper in this.

So there's a few other flavor accents where every all the other sauces you've tried were, you know, it's maybe 30% pepper.

This is about double that.

And the pepper is one of the most is one of the hottest peppers in the world.

So I'm looking at Rob Braden, their engineer, through the glass.

And you are laughing.

Is this this is funny.

You think I should remove some of this?

You think reasonably only because Gene said to do it, I wouldn't I this I'm just doing what Gene said.

I remove some of my that I went back and and and we've tried it.

We've had such a good hour.

And if you killed me, then it would put a damper on it.

Here we go.

A few hives.

That's about the worst of it.

Oh my God.

So, Evan, I right now, I think we kind of live in pretty uncertain times.

I mean, what do you think the best way we could like as a regular person, support local journalism and local media.

I this is probably meant to be my last episode.

Probably everyone's going to go.

Oh.

Oh, God.

Don't touch your eyes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Support local journalism like this, right?

Do you know?

Yeah.

This is.

Do you think this isn't the job?

Do you think we are?

Do you think this is helping?

Okay, yeah, I think this is definitely.

I think that this is the peak of local journalism.

Can do.

I think if we lose this, we're in trouble.

I think communities need this, whatever this is.

And they need what you do every day, which is great journalism.

We can't lose investigative reporting.

Local communities.

You know, I'd be remiss not to mention that I'm on vacation right now.

I came in just for this, and I couldn't be.

But you're a journalist, which means you're working pretty much every day anyway.

Through and through.

That's all this.

Just put it out there.

That ice cream that's out.

By the way.

I almost gave it to you even earlier, but I saved their ice cream.

Oh, my God, ice cream with, Gene's cherry bomb sauce on it, which goes very well with sweet things.

Yeah.

So it says ice cream, but also with hot sauce.

Is this.

There's hot sauce in it.

Yeah.

The, the, dark red stuff on top.

I think I'm going away.

Maybe afterwards.

That was a great way to end all that.

This has been really nice.

I'm having a great time.

This is a million or how many school units?

Yeah, it's about a million.

Yeah.

We don't we don't test it.

But the based on the peppers themselves, that's about where it would sit.

But it's not going to be, you know, have that stinging bite that hits you like once it gets stuck all your time in one spot.

The weight I had, I had like one track.

I had one full second where I was thinking, I got this, and then I just you in the back of your mouth and you go, something has happened, something is wrong.

Now my lips don't, don't hurt.

I just can't feel them.

My lips are kind of numb.

Yeah, it's work better than salonpas, you know.

Do you know I'm going to let you.

We're going to be done in a minute and a half.

I just want to say I survived.

I got to the end.

It wasn't a, really a stellar performance, but are you surprised that I made.

I didn't fall over Geno.

but you're enjoying this.

I'm barely surviving this.

You did a great job.

You're holding up my lips.

How do you talk without having lips?

And I want to say to to Gene Walczak, who has been kind enough to come in, are you okay over there?

Yeah.

I'm good.

Okay.

Katie.

Katie signaling to me with their hands, and I, I don't know what she's saying to me.

I don't think I've lost all coherence.

But, Gene, you've been really generous.

And the kinds of comments that we get from your fans that have been coming in, you've built a legion of fans.

This career that you have is unlike any other that I've ever heard of.

And I hope you're still having fun enough to keep doing this.

Oh, you it for a while, I, I do, you know, it's it's the bigger it gets the more there are more business related challenges.

You know.

But you know, initially I was like, oh, I'm just playing with some peppers out on the farm.

And Alice, I'm like, wow, I've got employees and I've got to manage things.

I was how many employees now?

15, including me.

That's great.

What a story.

How many bottles do you.

What do you call them?

Cases you sell by bottles.

What's the, Well, we sell, you know, direct to consumer, like off the website we sell by bottles.

But, you know, if you go on a cook's world or other places, you know, Wegmans, we we are selling them by the case, you know, and then if it's hot ones, it's by the pallet, you know, it's kind of it's a, it's a lot of sauce.

Well where are people going to find as we wrap up here.

Where are people going to find karma?

Amazon.com.

You'll see a map of all the all the all most of our retailers are up to date.

And of course, Wegmans Redbird market nibble acts and a quite a few other places in town, which I feel bad about not remembering them all fast enough.

Whole Foods Rochester has and Whole Foods Rochester.

There you go.

I'm just going to say to Karma sauce.com.

I'm not embarrassed about how I handle this.

I I'm alive.

You did great.

I think so.

You know, I'm thinking when I was 15 years old in that restaurant in Westlake, Ohio.

Eat your heart out.

Look how far you've come since, continued success to you, by the way.

Well, thank you so much for having a thank you.

That's, you know, check.

What a story.

Karma sauce.

the new episode dropped today on Hot Ones with Selena Gomez for Gino.

Thanks, bud.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

We'll be back here.

I'm going to be in full form tomorrow, and connections.

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