>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made nearly a week ago on your screens across the region.

Fans of the Buffalo Bills experienced a roller coaster of emotions during Saturday's playoff game at Denver, and what will likely go down as another 13 seconds or wide right moment.

A controversial call by the refs has become a widely shared screenshot, and from that to Josh Allen's tearful reaction to the team's loss to owner Terry Pegula decision to fire head coach Sean McDermott.

There's a lot going on in the bills universe.

It's among the top stories across the region this week, and we're going to explore it later this hour on the Healthbeat.

A recent study on nursing home beds in the region is a cause for concern, and we're going to discuss it with my colleague on the Healthbeat Racquel Stephen.

But first, I'm joined by my colleague Gino Fanelli, whose story about Rochester crime data this week has generated a lot of buzz.

And according to his reporting, most if not all categories of crime fell in the city of Rochester in the last year, and some of the rates are now at their lowest in decades.

So let's talk about that.

Gina.

Welcome back.

Nice to see you.

>> Nice to see you too.

>> So this in a way this goes against what I would call vibe or the idea of crime.

You know, it's whether you're hearing it from the white House that American cities are the worst they've ever been.

They're out of control.

Whatever the case may be, this kind of goes a little bit against the vibe of what's going on in American cities like Rochester, doesn't it?

Or am I wrong here?

>> No, I think this is a this is not a Rochester problem.

But you look into the comment sections of any news article about a crime that happens or anything like that.

You read the comments, you will see a very good microcosm of the kind of mentality that we have right now.

And this is to not to say that there is not crime happening in the city, that there isn't an issue of violence in the city, that, you know, homicides aren't happening, shootings aren't happening.

All those things are true.

But this idea that we are on this constant upward trajectory, it's the worst it's ever been.

It's the worst it's ever been.

The city's a war zone.

It's not true.

it I think that Rochester has if you look at the numbers and the way I tried to parse out these numbers is like, let's look at a singular ten year period beginning in 2016, ending in 2025. that gives us a, this, this context and this if you follow the data like I have, that there was this massive peak that was reached during the Covid 19 pandemic.

we saw this nationwide homicide spiked, violent crime spiked during the pandemic for a variety of social reasons around that.

but we've seen consistently since the peak in 2021, it dropped year over year over year over year.

And where it's landed now is pretty much in line with where it was pre-pandemic.

But most of the figures are actually lower than where they were pre-pandemic.

I think there's a lot of factors that play into why that happened, but it does run counter to this belief that the sky is falling.

that doesn't mean there's not problems, but it does mean that we are not on this constant upward trajectory of default falling into total chaos.

>> by the way, as a brief aside here, there's pretty fresh reporting in the last 24 hours that murder rates in American cities nationwide are down, down, down in the last.

I mean, it's a really remarkable story.

we're going to stay in Rochester.

I'm going to pull directly from Gino's reporting here.

So overall, the RPD tracks numbers on a number of categories of crime shootings, aggravated assaults, robberies, property crimes.

So I'm going to start with homicides.

Homicides are down.

Rochester Police Department recorded 36 homicides last year.

That's a decrease of 11 compared to 2024.

So from 47 down to 36.

And it's it's in line with figures recorded.

As you said before the pandemic.

So you know, I mean, whenever I saw new numbers, you know, when I was a younger reporter in Rochester on homicide numbers, somebody would use them for political reasons, whether there's a campaign, it's the highest numbers and it's out of control, or homicides are down.

You take one year to one year.

That doesn't tell you much.

You take it over 510, you start to see it.

And what, as you pointed out in your reporting, the pandemic was the wave.

It was the highest point of the wave.

This is a significant drop here.

This is not a one year thing.

This is not just a blip that all of a sudden we expect 2026 to be out of control with violence.

It really does look like we're on a downward trend back to at least a place we were when things were at a healthier point.

>> Yeah.

And if people want to check out the story, we I spent some time building some interactive charts that kind of show this.

And it's consistent steps down in every category, not just one year where we dropped and then it goes back up.

It is consistent, steps down, and that is and we look at 2021, which was the peak year for homicides, 85 homicides in that year compared to 36 this year.

I mean that that is a, very significant drop.

the number of shootings is down also quite significantly.

kind of aligning now with where they were pre-pandemic.

And I feel like we we talk about this.

I'm gonna keep repeating that phrase that we are back to where we were pre-pandemic.

Pre-pandemic also was kind of a time period where we were seeing a decline in violent crime in a lot of areas.

The pandemic threw a wrench into a lot of that, and I think, you know, the complicated thing, and I've written quite a bit over this over the years is like people listening to this might be like, well, how did the Covid 19 pandemic cause a spike in violent crime?

And I've always functioned on this, this idea that society as a whole, you throw a little wrench into it.

And this was a big wrench.

You you disrupt people's day to day life.

Some people are on the brink a lot of the time.

Economically, mentally and a lot of different ways.

And when you disrupt their day to day life, bad things start to happen.

And I think that's what we saw across the country, around the world during during the pandemic.

and there will be research about this for decades about how the pandemic affected all different categories of life.

But this is just one way we can look at it and say, okay, this thing clearly disrupted life and clearly led to this spike in issues that we're having in the city.

How does it now?

Cool.

And I think what we're seeing now is the kind of cooling effect.

>> So you report that gun violence in particular is way down.

So here are some numbers that you report there.

24 people were shot to death in the city of Rochester last year, 24 in 2021, it was 57.

There were 162 people shot in the city.

Not all to death, obviously, but 162 people shot last year.

419 four years ago.

Huge drops there, property crimes you report down.

it's the most common type of crime in Rochester.

And it hit a ten year low.

There.

And motor vehicle thefts, which saw, of course, that big spike in 2023 due to the crisis with Kias and Hyundais.

They remained high, but they've declined significantly since 2023.

The exception that you report on is aggravated assaults.

So what's going on there?

>> I don't know and an interesting part of it aggravated assaults are relatively high still compared to pre-pandemic.

And I what is contributing to that.

And I wouldn't say they're extraordinarily high compared to it, but they are still elevated.

there's a lot of different factors that can play into that.

There could be just more people reporting them than than were before.

It could be a different categorization of you know, different crimes.

Now be considering aggravated assaults when they weren't before.

Yeah.

I that that one was one that's kind of a curveball of because if you look at everything else, including the total totality of violent crime outside of shootings and homicides are down.

But yeah, assaults are still kind of elevated.

and that's something I think is worth looking further into.

And I'm planning on doing of like, okay, what is happening there?

>> Well, let's listen to some reaction from Willie Lightfoot, the former Rochester City Council member.

He's the founder of Rock Against Gun Violence Coalition and got got a number of things to say this first you're going to hear from Willie Lightfoot is on public perception.

Let's listen.

>> But when you go to live Clinton Avenue or Jefferson Avenue and you go and walk down that street and you survey, knock on ten doors and ask people, how do they feel safe in their neighborhood, right.

I think the answer would be no.

>> Okay.

So he's talked a lot about this.

While the data is one thing, the feeling of safety is another.

Let's listen to more of what he had to say about that.

>> Because people don't feel that safe.

They don't feel these numbers when they see that on TV and they go, okay, yeah, that looks good.

But that's not how I feel.

I'm still not letting my kid go play at the park.

>> And here's something else that Willie Lightfoot told you.

Gina, I want to read his quote here.

He says, I have a laundromat on Jefferson Avenue.

I close at five in the afternoon.

He says, that's ridiculous.

For a business like that, to close at five in the afternoon, it should be a 24 hour business.

It should be open to nine, 10:00 at night, he says.

I close at five because I don't feel safe and my customers don't feel safe.

And perception is reality.

That's a strong statement from a guy who you look at this data and it feels like a celebration in some ways that no one is celebrating.

24 people shot to death, no one's celebrating 36 homicides.

But certainly from where we were, it's a big, big step.

And Willie Lightfoot is saying we are nowhere near where we need to be, yet still.

>> Yeah.

>> It's powerful.

>> It is.

And Willie and I have talked many, many times over the years about this.

And when I talked to him the other day, we, we kind of had this philosophical debate about this, about perception of safety that I think, I think we meet somewhere in the middle on this where I had this idea that exposure to crime itself is something that is we've never seen anything like it before.

Every person is kind of inundated day to day with every single thing.

that is happening anywhere in the city, anywhere in the county, anywhere in the country, in social media, social media, I mean, TV news has a focus on violent crime now or crime in general, because it's very easy to turn around and can fill that 24 hour cycle really easily.

And it gets a lot of engagement.

and I, I think that there is this kind of idea that people are being shot to death every day in the city because you are exposed to it so regularly.

Willie has a perspective to that.

For people that live in the neighborhoods that that he has two businesses on Jefferson Avenue that he is a high crime area, and he's seen that his whole life.

He's, you know, a native of that area, and he's seen people.

People are shot regularly over there.

It happens and people are exposed to it.

And whether or not that shooting happened last week, whether it happened two years ago when the spate of shootings was higher, does that make you feel safer the more time that's passed and then you see numbers like, oh yeah, then I guess I didn't see that shooting and everything's okay now.

>> No, it's.

>> A good point.

Yeah.

That's I think that he's right there.

And I think that there is two factors that come into play here.

And I think they affect different populations.

The people that are actually living in the communities that are experiencing the highest rates of gun violence, and they are feeling lack of safety due to the literal fact of seeing these things in their day to day life.

While people that live maybe out in Pittsford or Shillai and are, you know, commenting in the local TV news section about how crime is worse than it's ever been, are getting that perception from being fed that through social media, through TV news.

And when those two coalesce, how can you expect anyone to have the perception that these numbers reflect a cooling effect in crime?

>> It's hard to avoid it.

I mean, I even remember when when Charlie Kirk was shot, I did not want to see that.

And I if you were on social for five minutes the day he was shot, you were going to see it.

It autoplays when when somebody posts a video from Rochester of a shooting and it autoplays, you see it and you go, like, I didn't even want to click on this.

And to me that's like a social media issue.

But I think the psychology that you're talking about, that's a really smart point.

And I think it really contributes to this feeling that people have in the suburbs, that this is a war zone here.

Yeah, I think that's really smart.

one other comment from Willie Lightfoot I want to listen to is on gun tracing.

I want to listen to this.

>> The statistics tell a story.

So when we talk about where these guns come from, look at the last 3 or 4 homicides.

Look at or shootings and or homicides.

The police officers who were shot think about that.

The guys carrying what an illegal gun.

Right.

Where does that gun we hear about police officers being shot?

We heard about the impact that that had on the community, the family, the victim of domestic violence, all of this.

But we never heard about where the gun came from.

>> So, I mean, how much work can get done in this regard here?

We've been hearing about that issue for years now.

>> Yeah.

The city recently.

and it's ongoing a gun trace report that is helping to kind of track where crime guns are coming from because we know most of the time they're not legally obtained handguns.

And that's it is an important that was actually the first question I had for the chief after that shooting.

of the three officers over on Charlie Avenue a couple weeks ago, I was, you know, where did he get the gun from?

This is someone who you know, he he has a criminal history where he shouldn't have had a handgun.

And it was clearly illegally obtained.

Where did he get it from?

Where did it come from?

Is it involved in >> understand why somebody would be nervous that, well, is New York State >> That gun could have passed through five, ten different hands.

That gun could have been used in various other crimes.

They find Connections between the gun and other unsolved crimes or other cold cases or whatever it might be.

this is a significant part of the problem is that we need to know where the tools are coming from, that people are using to commit these crimes.

And once you do that, how do you stymie the flow?

And would that actually make a difference?

I mean, we all have our own philosophies on you know, the Second Amendment and everything like that, but we're we're in this kind of culture where guns can really be coming from anywhere.

They can flow in very easily.

And that's an important way to understand how these mechanisms work and how it leads to street violence.

>> Last thing for you on this.

Certainly the Evans administration has been working hard on this issue.

I know they take a lot of pride in seeing those numbers start to come down.

What have they told you about why they think most categories of violence are down?

>> I think that they point to a lot of different things.

Mayor Evans points to the gun violence, state of emergency.

It gives them expanded powers.

he's renewed it every.

It started under former Mayor Lovely Warren.

He renews it every 30 days.

and it gives some powers to like if a bar is known for you know, shootings happening out front of it on a regular basis, they can shut down that bar.

That's one of the powers that's given to the mayor through that.

So they point to things like that.

They point to I did a story a few months ago on this new form of policing that was meant to address some of the issues on North Clinton Avenue, some of the, you know, complicated and controversial parts of you know, doing policing in these, you know, very high crime, high poverty, high drug areas of the city.

and then there's this a ton.

And I really points to this, too, and I tend to agree with him on this point, that there is a ton of community organizations that are on the neighborhood level trying to address these issues before they bubble up into you know, someone getting shot.

And does it always work?

Of course not.

But there has to be some people there besides the police and besides the government to step in and say they have the credibility for them to step in and say like, hey, can we bring down the temperature a little bit before you know someone dies?

>> Great reporting as always, sir.

>> Yeah.

Thank you.

>> Gino Fanelli, our colleague here at WXXI bringing you one of the most listened to, most read, most watched stories of the week.

Short break.

And I'm going to welcome my colleague Racquel Stephen next.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday on the next Connections.

We expect it to be a very, very challenging weather day.

A lot of people may end up stuck at home, not able to travel, maybe not going to work or school, and we're going to have live conversations with people across our region.

We're going to talk to some folks from the American South who are going to be hit with a big storm this weekend.

Keep you up to date Monday.

As it happens.

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Working with members to find health coverage for every stage of life, helping to make care and coverage more accessible in more ways for more people across the Rochester community.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

My colleague Racquel Stephen is with U.S.

health, equity and community reporter and producer for WXXI News.

Happy Friday.

Welcome back.

>> Happy Friday.

TGIF.

>> TGIF indeed.

Here.

so you reported this week on nursing homes nationwide?

>> Yes.

>> Experiencing a drop in operating capacity.

And in our region, in the Finger Lakes region, it's even more striking.

Yes.

What's going on?

>> It's double is double the amount.

So researchers at Urmc did a study on nursing, nursing home capacity, skilled nursing facility capacities, and what they did to measure this is not based on the beds, but based on at what point, how many people or patients are in a facility at the most at any given time within under the course of in the course of two months?

and based on what they've seen even though they can have, they have a capacity to hold 100 patients, they can only do 80 based on staffing.

and this is we this this problem has been an issue since the pandemic.

We know that a lot of nursing homes, they're lower staff.

So hospitals have to keep these patients long term extended stays.

And it just everything is just all interconnected.

And it's affecting our entire health care system.

>> So everyone wants to know how do you fix this?

And I just want to explore a little bit about what people told you about what they think needs to happen to start solving this.

>> Yes.

one of the big things is, is to to invest in the workforce, right.

Better wages, better benefits, so we can recruit and retain more, more staff for these facilities, particularly CNA certified nursing assistants, because they do the jobs that, you know, most nurses don't want to do.

You know, they're on their hands and feet.

They're they're really they're doing that work, that hard work and that labor is getting even more expensive.

And and they they require more money for this.

Right.

And it's just investing in that workforce.

>> Yeah.

Reading from your reporting here, Brian McGarry, assistant professor of geriatrics and aging at Urmc and the lead author of the study.

We've been talking about, says a primary reason for the decline is that there is widespread staffing issues in the nursing home industry.

So in a sense, if there's anything comforting, we're not the only region that's having these issues, but we have them really acutely.

I mean, like, we and we seem to talk about it every year.

Yeah.

From my perspective, it's like we've been talking about this for years, and here we are.

>> And here we are.

>> And a lot of people are frustrated.

So on one side of this, you might think, well, these are the jobs that, as Raquel just said, that are so hard and maybe they can't find enough people to do them.

On the other side is like, are we funding?

Are we paying enough for the jobs?

Are we recruiting people into the work?

We're talking about doing the work when people are really suffering and struggling.

You're talking about changing bedpans.

You're talking about changing people, helping people with showers.

Showers and toilets and everything.

And I mean, I don't know, again, if there's any perfect answer there.

It's a question of is there the workforce to begin with?

And is there funding for it?

I guess there's different sides of that.

>> Yes.

And then there's the other side where the seniors don't want to go to nursing homes.

Right?

we've seen during the pandemic that the death rate in nursing homes was significant, and some of them are fearful and would prefer to be with family.

So that's why we're probably operating at below.

our capacity, operational capacity, which is 10% below in the Finger Lakes region, nationwide is about 5%.

So we're double nationwide.

>> Well, let's listen to some of what Brian McGarry told you.

Raquel talked to again a professor of geriatrics and aging who is the lead author of this study.

And again, on that question of the solution, this is some of what he had to say about that.

Let's listen.

>> Continuing to invest in people who are interested in working in this space and in being a caregiver is really important.

I think some of the ways that we've seen recovery coming out of the pandemic, like in 2023 and 2022, is through greater investment in the workforce, and that largely comes through in better wages, better pay.

>> And let's listen to that second point that he's making kind of along these lines here.

Again, just trying to explain the scope of this problem and what's happening in the average nursing home in our region.

Let's listen to some of what he said about staffing.

>> The primary reason for that decline is that there's these widespread staffing issues in the nursing home industry.

So nursing homes, they can't hire enough staff to staff, like all 100 beds that they have available in the nursing home.

They only have enough staff to staff like 80, let's say.

So that's where the the sort of drop in operating capacity comes from.

>> And again, so I want to make sure I remember what Raquel was reporting here.

So this is a problem nationally.

But our problem is twice the problem nationally.

It's double.

>> We're double.

Yeah we're operating at double below our operational capacity which.

>> We want to be.

>> Double below, which is not technically bed capacity is just what the staffing.

How much, how much?

patients can the staff maintain or the ratio.

>> And so for people who are like, well, Medicare should just cover this.

I mean, McGarry talked to you about that too.

I want to listen to what he said there in that that third comment there.

Rob.

Go ahead.

>> We tend to split sort of long term care and health care.

It's part of the reason why Medicare doesn't pay for long term care in nursing homes or in the home.

It's it's not health care.

It's something different.

But what this paper really shows is that it's all interconnected.

And so if you don't have enough capacity in your nursing homes, that's going to have these upstream effects on the flow of patients in the hospital.

>> Yeah.

It's interesting.

Raquel.

I mean, again, when people say Medicare, yes, there's your solution.

Well, I guess there's the answer.

Yes.

Not necessarily the answer here.

>> Yes.

So it's long term care.

And then there's health care.

And they're not the same.

unfortunately.

>> It feels like that.

I understand why people feel like it is.

>> Yes.

Because it is all interconnected.

Right.

And so Medicare won't cover it because it's not considered health care.

>> So this last comment that I think is really interesting is to me, this is where it starts to feel like long term care, but it's also health care.

There's a lot of talk about whether hospitals in this country are going to shut down, whether there's funding and if and when that happens, it's going to be rural hospitals.

Well, long term care again, different category, same kind of problem.

And I want to listen to what McGarry said about rural areas.

There.

>> There was.

There was a lot of fear, I think, during the pandemic that there was going to be this mass exodus of nursing homes from the market with, you know, facilities just outright shutting down.

We haven't seen a ton of evidence of that, but it has happened in some cases.

And when it has, it has been in rural areas.

And of course, that can have really big implications for access because the next neighboring nursing home might not be, you know, down the street, but it might be like 20, 30, 40 miles away.

>> Or frankly, more than that.

Raquel.

I mean, it might be more than 40.

It might be 60 miles, might be 90 miles away.

Wow.

That is really, really hard for people when they need care or long term care.

And they got nothing in their area.

We're going to have these deserts of care in the United States of America in 2026.

>> Yeah.

>> It's a hard.

>> Thing to get.

staffing or nurses that want to be in rural areas.

Right.

And it's hard to recruit over there.

So yes, we did experience closures in those areas.

And even though there is a heavy emphasis and focus in our health care systems to to make healthcare more accessible in rural areas, there's still some, some deserts.

>> All right.

So let me grab a phone call here.

Yolanda in Rochester wants to comment on nursing home care.

Hi, Yolanda.

Go ahead.

>> Yes.

Hi.

Can you hear me?

Okay.

>> I can okay.

>> Thanks.

Yeah, I'm.

I just wondered because I feel like there's a gap.

in the system to allow for people who don't want to go to nursing homes, but to be cared for in place, in home, for family members, or even healthcare providers, to be able to come into the home.

And for like the Medicaid system or whatever might be paying those health care providers or even family members for that system to be built more robustly to allow for that, because I feel like that's where the gap is, is that there are some people who may not necessarily be at that level of care where they require 24/7 support or assistance, but that there may be enough family members and caregivers in their network that can take care of them at home.

But yet, we don't seem to have the systemic provisions for that.

>> I mean, I think it's a really smart observation.

What do you make of that, Raquel?

>> well, the hospitals are are getting pretty clever, right?

When they're when they're coming up with innovative ways to to treat our seniors.

And I know umc recently launched their at home hospital program, right where they literally bring hospital care to your home.

They bring the gadgets you need nurses checks in with you daily twice a day.

and you have telehealth access to a provider whenever you like.

So they're trying to come up with innovative ways to, to fix this, this issue.

>> Yolanda, thank you for that.

I mean, I really appreciate that perspective.

And then before we let Raquel go, I just want to read some of the remarks.

I know you hear probably with some regularity, some regularity from Mary Dell, who's chair of the elder Justice Committee of Metro Justice.

She's been on this program before.

And Mary Dell sends us a note on some of their concerns about all of this.

I just want to read from part of that.

She says.

We fear that overcrowding in hospitals and lack of capacity of nursing homes will result in hospitals and nursing home owners and operators pressuring New York State to rescind the 2021 laws enacted to ensure appropriate and necessary staffing levels, and what nursing homes spend on care.

This would result in the same long term and chronic problems in care of residents and poor outcomes that came to light during the Covid 19 pandemic.

So Mary Dell talked about on this program in the past, probably talked with you.

I mean, she's very passionate.

And those 2021 laws are were designed to essentially say, yeah, that if you're going to end up in one of these facilities, there will be appropriate staffing.

And that organization will spend an appropriate amount directly on care.

And Mary Dell is saying, if we're desperate, then maybe they're going to rescind those laws to try to cover the gaps.

But she's saying the quality is going to be bad.

People are going to suffer if that happens.

So kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

That doesn't look like a solution to Mary Dell.

But you also understand there's desperation in the system.

>> Yes, yes.

And and what McGarry also mentioned is that nursing homes are being a little strategic in who, what patients they bring in as well.

they're looking for more patients that are rehabilitation and so they can.

And now I think it's more cost effective for them than long term stay.

>> Rehab, because it's going to be finite.

You're in.

>>, you're.

>> In.

>> You're out.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they're they're actually filtering the patients that they accept as well.

>> Okay.

as we let you go here, do you expect to talk to state lawmakers?

I mean, I don't know how much this is going to be on the agenda in Albany in the weeks to come.

>> Yeah, I'm not sure exactly where we're taking this.

we'll.

Yeah, we're hoping that they they advocate for higher.

Just just investing in that workforce.

>> Well, certainly a.

>> Lot of and a lot of programs.

>> A lot of lawmakers.

And by the way, this is like Republicans and Democrats.

This is one of those issues where I always feel like, well, this is bipartisan.

There's a lot of agreement here that they recognize the problem.

They diagnosed the problem the same way.

And then we get a state budget and it's like, was it in there?

Nope.

So we'll see.

but I know you'll be reporting on that.

Thank you for bringing your reporting.

>> To us today.

A lot of and just doing this reporting is just showing me how much more interconnected this whole system is, because now I'm working on a story about international nurses.

Right.

And and now we're trying to find ways to recruit more nurses to help alleviate the shortage in the hospital system, because we have excessive amount of patients there that should be in nursing homes.

>> We expect to be talking about that as soon as next week on this program.

>> Yes, I'm working on that today.

So.

>> Well, I'm not telling you, you know, I mean, you're busy enough.

Raquel, aren't we all?

>> It will be out on Monday.

The story will about international nurses.

Recruitment will be on our platforms on Monday.

>> This is a really important story.

Great work here.

Thanks for popping in.

>> Thank you.

>> Pleasure.

Racquel Stephen short break.

We're going to come back and close the week talking about the very, very important news of the Buffalo Bills and their coaching search.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday on the next Connections.

We expect it to be a very, very challenging weather day.

A lot of people may end up stuck at home, not able to travel, maybe not going to work or school, and we're going to have live conversations with people across our region.

We're going to talk to some folks from the American South who are going to be hit with a big storm this weekend.

Keep you up to date Monday.

As it happens.

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>> This is Connections and one of the biggest stories of the week, of course, has been the Buffalo Bills decision.

After losing again in the playoffs, not getting to the Super Bowl this time deciding to part ways with head coach Sean McDermott.

One of the most successful coaches.

Maybe the most successful by win percentage they've ever had, but certainly a popular player in the fan base, you'll find fans who feel like they never got to the Super Bowl with the guy, and it was time to move on, and you'll feel you'll find plenty of people who feel like they did him wrong, not only in firing him, but in the way that it was done and in the comments that were made.

And with a press release with misspellings.

And it just looked clumsy.

It did not make Buffalo look great this week.

And so we're closing the week with where they go from here with one of my favorite people to have in studio Scott Pitoniak best selling author, nationally honored journalist, longtime sports writer.

Welcome back to the program here.

>> Thanks for having me, Evan.

It's slow week, huh?

>> Yeah, well, no, this is a big one, man.

You pushed out some other people with this one.

It's a big one.

And we've got Alex Simone with us.

Who is a multimedia reporter for Buffalo Toronto Public Media as well.

Alex, welcome.

Thanks for being with us.

>> Hi, Evan.

Thanks for having me.

>> So I want to start by listening to a clip of Terry Pegula, the owner of the bills.

and this is from Alex's coverage of the recent Pegula press conference where Terry Pegula talks in this first clip about going into that locker room.

And, you know, assessing things and trying to figure out what he should do.

Let's listen.

>> If I can take you into that locker room, I felt like we hit the proverbial playoff wall.

Year after year, 13 seconds missed field goals.

The catch?

So I, I just sensed in that locker room, like, where do we go from here?

>> So here's where it gets weird for me.

I'll start with Alex.

I know you covered this, and then we'll get Scott's take Terry Pegula spent not a small amount of time complaining about the Brandin Cooks call and basically said, we win that game.

If that call went the other way.

And then he said he went into the locker room and everyone was so down, and he just felt like he had to make a change.

And so if you're saying that that you really effectively should have won, if not for a bad call, why are you then saying that the coach is responsible and should be run out of town?

How do you square that one up for me?

Alex?

>> Right, well, and along those lines, I think it the question has to be asked then if they win that game and they move on to the conference championship and then they lose in the conference championship for a second year in a row, is Sean McDermott still going to get fired in the same way?

Because, as you recall, he also said, well, or I guess you wouldn't recall because you weren't specifically there.

But he said he didn't think about it until after the game.

He specifically says seeing the result of the game and going into that was where he first considered firing Sean McDermott.

>> Yeah, extraordinary.

>> And like you said, especially if he says it was a bad call.

Well then how can you blame Sean McDermott?

it it was definitely a question that several of the reporters mentioned, you know, he was asked that question more than once.

and yeah, I don't think the messaging was terribly clear on that.

And you know, I think that the national reaction even indicates that.

>> Yeah.

Scott, you've covered a lot of news conferences with owners.

end of the year sort of postmortems.

The national media has.

Buffalo hasn't looked great this week.

And I wonder, how would you grade Pegula's performance this week?

>> Oh, I'd give him an f.

>> A failing grade.

>> Yeah.

For sure.

look, it you can make a logical argument as he did, that we've hit the proverbial wall.

We've got to make a change.

okay.

You know, I think some people would agree with that.

But, you know, the way it was, it was mishandled.

It was, you know, he's throwing in other parts of the press conference.

He's he's throwing players under the bus.

>> Directly by name.

>> By name, which, you know, think about how stupid that is.

You're devaluing an asset that you might be trying to trade.

now you may get nothing for them.

And you're also like, think what message you're sending to other players in your locker room by doing that you're throwing shade on Sean McDermott, which which, you know, leads me to believe you don't have your pulse on the finger of your fan base because, I mean, didn't your PR department tell you, like, this is not trending?

Well, you know, a very anti being very pro McDermott.

so just it was a masterclass and not how to handle crisis management.

It really was it was a PR disaster.

And and it didn't help being at all.

I mean here's been he's already in the crosshairs and you know, you're let me answer that question for you talking about Keon Coleman.

Right, right.

The wide receiver like it wasn't it wasn't Beane's choice.

>> Pegula jumped in to basically say, don't blame Brandon Beane for that.

And then everybody's digging up these videos of Brandon Beane being saying before the draft like, oh, we're going to get this guy.

Yeah, I mean, it was so clumsy.

>> Yeah, it was awkward.

And again, you can make a logical argument to say, like, we've gone as far as we can go, but I think, you know, being and McDermott were joined at the hip.

McBean.

They were known as and they had a great relationship.

It was you know, Sean McDermott brought him in, pushed for him to become the general manager.

Let's not forget how that worked out, that narrative.

You know, McDermott arrives here first as a coach and then after, you know, they bring in the general manager a few months after that.

So it was just really clumsy, very awkward.

And you know, they became the butt of national jokes.

And and I think there were some more serious damage that you did to your own team by doing that.

>> So let me listen to a couple more clips that Alex has.

And I think in a way these are related here.

So first I want to listen, because what Scott is talking about there, the GM and the coach in any organization, they're supposed to work together.

They don't always sometimes there's friction.

But the perception was that these guys were pretty aligned.

I'm sure they disagree at times, but in recent days, since the firing, there's this idea that like, well, Brandon Beane won the power struggle.

Brandon Beane convinced the owner that he wasn't the problem.

The coaching was the problem.

And I want to listen to two things.

First, Pegula again reiterating that he's saying this wasn't a power struggle.

This wasn't Brandon Beane, you know, sort of in a Shakespearean takedown.

It really was just the owner feeling that gut moment.

Let's listen to Pegula.

>> After the playoff game in the locker room.

>> So it wasn't.

>> I need to keep saying that.

I keep saying it.

It's it was feeling the moment, being there, being there.

>> Okay.

Now, Brandon Beane was asked directly, what do you say about the idea that you won this power struggle, that it was you against McDermott you came out on top, he's gone.

And that you maneuvered your way with the owner to convince him to not only keep you, but promote you.

Here's what being said about that.

>> But for somebody to question my character like that is BS.

And I've never done that.

If you'll remember, in 2023 there was an article written on Sean accusing things who stood up in front of every one of you guys and defended him and his family.

>> There's a little bit of Anthony Michael Hall on the Breakfast Club energy for that clip.

For me, I gotta say.

But at the same time, Alex, let me start with you.

I think it's plausible that that Pegula is is right here that this wasn't, you know, a big power struggle and Brandon being one that Pegula just saw that locker room and he made a gut decision whether people liked it or not.

What what makes sense to you?

>> I absolutely think there's potential in that.

And especially given that it seemed like he didn't really like, how much did he consult with whether it is Brandon Beane or whether it is other, up front office members and, and his trusted circle, I guess.

but the part that confuses me then on that is if this was a gut reaction, why do you then also specifically say this is our seating every year?

This is how we did every year.

We were a five seed, a two seed, a three seed, you know, and he went through what they did and it's like, well, if that matters so much, then was it really just limited to the result this year >>?

And that seems like inconsistent messaging.

>> Yeah.

I mean, Scott, what do you make of those clips you just heard?

>> Well, you know, I think some some background here these guys were friends.

They, you know, they they go back to climbing the rungs of the ladder when they were both working for the Carolina Panthers, as I mentioned, you know, McDermott's the guy that brought been in they had a friendship.

This was a collaboration that worked extremely well.

but there were fissures in this relationship this year.

And we started seeing some of them publicly with some of the statements, you know, being said, you know, he couldn't make this trade before the trade deadline.

And so this, you know, he was asked specifically, is this a championship caliber roster?

Yes.

Was his definitive answer.

And then you ask that question of Sean McDermott after a really tough loss, you know, after the trade deadline, he's asked, is this a championship roster?

He goes, I love my guys.

He didn't answer the question.

So you know, this whole thing came down to like, you know who's who's at fault here.

Right.

Who who gets the who gets the credit and who gets the blame here.

Well, the blame is that it's the coach.

He didn't coach them up enough.

He had enough talent and he didn't do it.

And what's missing in this whole thing, I think, and I've been a critic from time to time as far as the playoffs are concerned with with McDermott.

but, you know, it comes down to a fact here that this team was decimated by injuries.

And I think that McDermott arguably did his best coaching job of his career this year, piecing together a roster that had practice players having been forced to start games and so forth because of all the injuries.

So I mean, who's who's at fault here?

It's probably both are at fault to some extent, but they wanted to make it an either or, you know, and that being gave you a championship caliber roster and you didn't you didn't maximize it to its potential.

>> Well, he had a championship caliber quarterback, that's for sure.

Here's some response.

Miles you know, our our colleague Miles says Sean McDermott's defense blows it every playoff game in the clutch.

Josh Allen has to play perfect every single game only to win by three points.

I mean, I feel that Josh Allen finally had an off playoff game in Denver.

I don't know if you would say he was bad overall.

He had bad moments for sure.

Thrown away three points at the end of the first half.

simply missing targets.

He doesn't miss, especially nobody's talking about the miss to Mecole Hardman in overtime, no one would be talking about Brandin Cooks if Josh Allen just hit a wide open hardman downfield in there inside the 40.

And they're going to go win.

And he missed it.

So.

But Josh Allen shouldn't have to be perfect to win.

If it's a championship caliber roster.

And I think that's part of what Miles is saying there.

>> Yeah yeah.

And and you know I will blame the defense a lot of times for these losses in the postseason.

But let's not forget that those turnovers five turnovers the bills committed you know the turnovers led to 16 points.

And you mentioned about that one where Josh was trying too hard.

He was playing hero ball before the half.

That results in a field goal by Denver.

You take that field goal away Evan.

And this team wins in regulation.

The game doesn't go to overtime.

The bills win.

And we're talking about them playing.

You know the New England Patriots.

>> But that's a guy who clearly in his head feels like he has to do everything.

That's the only reason you make a mistake that bad.

>> Well he's also playing hurt.

And as we're getting reports now that he had a broken bone in his foot he was playing with, there's some reports that have come out today.

But you're right.

The point is he feels he has to carry the whole burden of everything.

And it's not just the weight of, of the, of the present.

It's the weight of the past.

The whole franchise, the whole region.

You know, having not won a Super Bowl, he's carrying that.

I mean, that's the reality of things.

And it's a it's a big burden.

>> Let me go ahead and read some more feedback.

And then we're going to ask Alex and Scott about what's coming next here.

But I will say as as someone who grew up in Cleveland, as a Browns fan, I've spent most of my adult life basically saying my standards are so low, just don't embarrass me.

I mean, like, I don't think we're going to win.

Just don't embarrass me.

And this week, what I think made Buffalo fans angry is the owner embarrassed them, and no one likes to feel embarrassed.

On the national stage.

You lose.

It's hard.

You deal with it, but don't embarrass us.

And what Terry Pegula did embarrass them?

I mean, I've become a bills fan, which is like becoming a Browns fan by extension, which is just this self-lacerating why do we do this to ourselves?

But I wanted to see the bills in the Super Bowl, and I still think they're going to win a Super Bowl under Josh Allen, by the way.

so here's Chris who essentially says that that McDermott never got a stop.

He says all Allen always gave the team a lead late in playoff games, except for the first AFC Championship in KC.

McDermott.

A defensive head coach can never get his defense to get one stop.

Jacksonville was the only game.

And you know, we're seeing a lot of comments from people on YouTube who are are saying that, you know, this is Josh's prime window.

A listener on YouTube says the time for a large move like this is now Josh's prime window closes more with every year.

The nuclear option firing Sean might be the start to rethinking how this team plays, so I get that.

So, Alex, we're hearing that the bills have Josh Allen in the room for the interviews.

Now.

Grant Udinski from Jacksonville.

There's a number of others who are on the menu.

and Josh Allen's going to be a big part of this decision I assume.

Alex.

Yes.

>> That's what they even said in the press conference.

They said that his voice will at least be considered.

But here's the personally here's my thought on hiring a new coach when you've had your previous coach with such success.

Right.

The most success you've seen in the last 25 years, and you choose to fire him after this sustained success, right?

It doesn't.

I don't think it matters who your next coach is.

What matters is, is that coach going to maintain the standard?

Because that's the minimum.

The minimum is no longer making the playoffs or having a solid record, right?

The minimum is now.

Well, at least you have to win one playoff game.

And probably to you know, we want you to make the conference championship in your first year potentially.

And so you could tell me it's Brian Daboll who they hire.

You could tell me it's Joe Brady who gets promoted.

I don't personally I'll listen to you when you tell me, whomever it is at the beginning of the year, I just want to know what the results are at the end of the year, because if the results aren't good enough, then what kind of heat are they going to be under after the first year already?

And what kind of heat is Brandon Beane going.

>> To be there?

>> Yeah, that is Scott.

That is a really important point, isn't it?

>> Yeah.

I'll go even beyond what Alex says.

I agree with him.

It's Super Bowl or bust.

And that's kind of.

>> What in year one of the new stadium.

>> And that's kind of where we were with McDermott.

The pressure he was feeling.

We've heard that the last couple of years it's Super Bowl or bust, Super Bowl or bust.

And I mean, it's unfair to a first year coach walking into this, but that's the way it's going to be.

This is what the fan base is going to demand, and you're going to be compared to Sean McDermott.

And if you're complaint was, well, couldn't get over the hump, hit the proverbial wall.

Well, this guy better not hit the proverbial wall.

And like you said, the guy who's under the greatest pressure I would say Terry Bakula, but you can't you can't fire owners.

Is Brandon Beane Brandon Beane.

It's all on him now.

You you know, and the other thing is they have Josh Allen and Alex.

I think you can you can back me on this.

There's a lot of serious decisions that have to be made about this roster, and there's not a lot of cap room.

And, you know, you have an aging, injured, infirm roster here.

There's a lot of major decisions that have to be made.

And getting a wide receiver number one as well.

>> And Alex to Scott's point there, I understand why Josh is in the room.

But as a Cleveland fan, I can tell you LeBron James brought us a title, but he was not a great player GM.

They consulted him on a lot of moves.

He wanted his friends in there.

The more they they went away from listening to LeBron on player personnel, the better they did.

I don't know how Josh will be as sort of a playing GM.

>> Yeah, and you have seen that already as far as.

>> Some of the moves, right.

Not maybe not the minor.

maybe not the major players they bring in, but even them bringing in Mitchell Trubisky as backup quarterback.

Well do we really think that's because Mitchell Trubisky can do such a great job.

If Josh Allen goes out.

Or do we think it's because Mitchell Trubisky and Josh Allen are very good friends.

you know and again Gabe Davis bringing him back this year right.

That was because probably Josh wanted a bit of a security blanket.

>> Yeah I think that's well said.

Go ahead Scott.

>> I do think he belongs in the room only for this.

I think he has a right to know who his offensive coordinator is going to be, who his head coach is going to be.

And I think, you know, let's face it, you know, Josh is the most important person in this organization.

>> He is.

>> Yeah.

He he should be at the table now.

He shouldn't make all the decisions or the final decision.

But you know, if you're worried about him being you know, window's closing now on this on this prime you know, to get to the Super Bowl and so forth with this otherworldly quarterback, he deserves to have a big say in this.

He really does.

>> All right, I'm going to say something really unpopular to close the week.

You ready for this?

I think the referees did a pretty good job in Denver.

They missed two huge calls and they were both.

They should have been holding on the bills when Josh missed Dawson.

Knox wide open late in that drive in regulation that could could have won the game.

There was an egregious hold like a yanking the horse collar of a Denver lineman a rusher.

And if Josh just completes that pass and the bills win, Denver feels like they got hosed in overtime.

Josh is standing in the end zone and we Buffalo's got a lineman again.

Horse Collaring a rusher I bring this up because when I coach kids I try to tell them there's going to be calls that go against you that make you upset, but there's not a conspiracy against you.

And there will be calls that go for you.

But you'll you'll forget about those.

The bill should have won that game more easily anyway.

They were the better team and that's what drives me crazy.

I want to see them in the Super Bowl.

I want to see them blow somebody out like they should.

>> Right?

Well, you know, the refs didn't win this game for Denver.

The bills lost this game.

They beat themselves.

and and this isn't a popular call either.

But that was an interception.

If you follow the law of what a catch is in the NFL.

He did he did not have possession and he did not complete going down.

>> I'm with you.

I'm actually with you, Scott.

And here's what I always say.

The NFL's all this technical rule stuff.

Did he make a football like nobody knows what the catch is.

So then I just say simplify it.

If you're playing in the backyard, who gets the ball there?

Well, two guys go down with the ball.

One pops up with it.

It's an interception.

>> Yeah.

>> In every backyard in America.

That would have been.

>> A pick.

Yeah.

And and you know, I mean, you look at it, he, you know, Sean McDermott is on the rules committee too.

So there's a like a, a cruel irony there.

>> But even if people don't like what I'm saying, hear me, hear me now.

Go Bills.

They're going to win the Super Bowl in their first year in a new stadium.

And everyone's going to forget about this past week because this region deserves that.

This has not been a great week for bills football.

I don't love what the Pegulas have done in the last week, but they win a Super Bowl in a year.

We will forget that and they're going to.

So how about that?

>> Well, I could see it.

>> Come on Scott, get on.

>> Board here.

No I mean you know you got Josh Allen.

You got a you got.

>> You gotta do it.

Super Bowl or bust.

Alex Simone.

Great work.

Thanks for joining us.

We'll talk to you again.

>> Absolutely.

Thanks for having me.

>> He's with Buffalo Toronto Public Media, the great Scott Pitoniak.

Hey, we don't say goodbye.

We say Go Bills.

That's right.

>> Go Bills Go Bills Go Bills.

>> Everyone, have a great weekend.

Talk to you next week.

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