From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made when two local parents welcomed three babies.

Ashley and Gary of Rochester welcomed their two female and one male pup in February.

Yes, I said pup.

Talking about three North American river otters who were born at the Seneca Park Zoo.

It's a big deal.

As zoo leaders point out, many people in our region may not know that North American river otters were extra petted, but they are native to this area.

You can see them in tributaries of the Genesee River.

Conservation efforts led by the zoo and community partners have helped to reintroduce otters to area waterways.

Their presence is a sign of a healthy ecosystem.

And now you can also see them at the zoo.

The birth of the three pups marks the first in the 132 year history of the facility.

Zoo leaders call their efforts a conservation success story.

That has been about 30 years in the making, and it's coming at a time when a shift in federal priorities has effected some environmental and wildlife protections.

Funding cuts to USAID and a funding freeze for the U.S.

Fish and Wildlife Service have halted some projects centered on animals facing various threats, including extinction.

So can a local project be a kind of good news success story?

A model for continued conservation work, no matter what is changing at the federal level.

Our guests are going to talk about it and some of the work that they are doing in that and other areas this hour.

And we're going to talk about the otters.

Of course we are.

Welcome to the program.

The general curator at the Seneca Park Zoo, David Hamilton.

Congratulations on the success story.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

How are the pups doing?

The pups are doing great.

they are outside every.

Every day.

Take it into the sunshine that we've had lately.

And we have a lot of guests coming out to appreciate, our new, new family there.

Well, it's great to have you here.

And welcome to Tom Snyder, director of programing and conservation action for the Seneca Park Zoo Society.

Thank you for being here.

Great to be here.

Thanks.

And Doctor Larry Buckley is here.

Larry is a senior associate dean of the College of Science at RIT.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

Well, thank you, Evan and Laura Gansler is a community science coordinator for the Seneca Park Zoo Society.

Welcome to you as well.

Thank you.

So, let's start with, the news there, David.

I mean, it's, for people who are not following the pup news.

The otter pup news.

how high on the list is this for in terms of important success story for the zoo here.

Pretty big news.

this is big for us.

I've been managing the population of North American river otters in zoos and aquariums for 25 years, and always been giving advice to other zoos about what to do for their otters.

but this the first time I've had pops up in one of my zoos.

So it's a big, big deal for me.

Big deal for Seneca Park Zoo.

It's the first litter we've ever had here.

And what do Gary and Keith think?

How are they doing as parents are?

Hoshi is is a great mom.

She was a mom before she came here.

She had, pups at another zoo.

But when she came here, and bred with Gary, he had pups.

That takes about a year.

And then they, She's been doing great.

She's a wonderful mom.

We were able to watch them on cameras and see how well she was doing with them in the inner den box.

And I think we've got pictures on the YouTube channel if you're watching on the news YouTube feed.

So you can see the pups, by the way.

Gary is a great name for an animal.

It's just a great you know, I know a dog named Todd.

cat named Ed.

Gary the otter.

That's fantastic.

And the pups doing well here.

Do you think people are surprised, David, to find out that this is, you know, a first for this zoo?

I think people may hear otters and say, you know, I, I was not aware that this was, a big milestone for a zoo like this.

they may have seen our otters over the years here at Seneca Park Zoo, but maybe they didn't realize that, we didn't have Bob.

So we've been trying for for many years, and it was just the first paper that that everything worked out.

All the stars aligned well.

And so, you can see them now?

Yes, yes.

All right, so if you attend the zoo, you can see.

And the pups.

And when were the pups born again?

It was back at the end of January.

End of January.

Okay, so she keeps them in their den box for quite a few weeks and then start slowly bringing them out.

And, we were able to allow her to teach them how to swim in a little pool.

And then then she brought them outside.

So otter pups don't don't know how to swim right at first.

So mom has to have a little tough love and teach them how to swim.

And then what is the the plan for them going forward at the zoo?

well, they're managed by, the North American River Otter Species Survival Plan, and I'm actually the coordinator for that.

they will eventually go to other zoos to have their own families at other zoos and aquariums across the country, that are a part of the Association of Zoos and Aquariums.

What's the lifecycle of an otter?

expected life expectancy is probably 16 to 18 years.

There's some that have lived up to, one have lived at 25.

We had one.

One old guy that lived up in the is literally 20s.

Okay.

And so it's a it's a cool story at a time when I don't want to over blow this.

I have no idea how the conservation world, how those who are working on, threats to animals and various habitats, are, are doing and I, you know, I we hear about these cuts to wildlife services to U.S.

Fish and Wildlife.

And I wonder, Tom, if you mentioned for the program you had a statement that could maybe help elucidate something.

Yeah.

So what's going to give a little context?

You know, Seneca Park Zoo is, accredited by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums and collectively that's, you know, 250 of the, the best and, zoos in the country that really go to the highest standards.

And so collectively, that organization represents all of the zoos and, and, so he's put out a statement not to, you know, pretty recently.

And it really has to do with urging the, U.S.

Fish and Wildlife Service not to remove the or change the definition of the word harm.

you know, the Supreme Court upheld our means.

The habitat destruction is harmful, and that that's part of that word.

And so specifically the the verbiage that's coming out right now, looks to change the word harm.

So it doesn't does not include habitat destruction.

so ACA and all of the zoos right now, urge U.S.

Fish and Wildlife not to change that.

and that it has been upheld by the Supreme Court already that that is a part of the Endangered Species Act.

So the layman's terms is the courts are intervening.

You sound like an optimist about some of this.

I think we all have to be, don't we?

A little bit more than you know.

But give me the best case.

Worst case for the work that you do that.

Yeah.

So.

Well, I mean, it's hard to tell right now.

Right?

In a lot of ways, like you said, US aid and some of these other organizations that maybe don't look like they're tied to to species conservation are vitally tied.

Because when we work, whether it's, you know, this works a lot in Madagascar and Borneo and South Africa and all of these places.

we don't necessarily look at wildlife as the entry point to conservation.

We look at the human issues.

And so when you have U.S. aid pull out of an area and you have no more food and people are hungry, they're going to go out and hunt, right?

I mean, they need protein.

So, there's a there's a bit of ancillary stuff that we don't know what's going to happen with that right now.

So that's definitely along the worst case scenario path.

And seeing some of these ecosystems collapse.

Collapse.

Best case scenario is that, you know, we have a constitution and the Supreme Court, has powers to to keep that in check.

And and they do that, and if not, then we have to be really thoughtful about how we're raising money, about how we're working on these things.

as NGOs in the area, whether it's local, regional, you know, national or worldwide.

Yeah.

To your point about the courts there, I mean, this is something that this program has covered a lot in the last four months or so.

It's the question of impoundment.

Can an executive, can a president say that Congress has allocated money, but we're not going to spend it.

We're not going.

Can he impound the funds?

This has been something that has come up in history a number of times with a number of presidents.

The courts tend to rule in favor of congressional authority to appropriate the money.

And so that's partially I know why you're optimistic that that money still gets spent.

But let me just read a little bit of Vox's coverage here about some of the possible impacts here.

The U.S.

Fish and Wildlife Service is the nation's only government agency dedicated to conserving plants and animals, and it had frozen its vast portfolio of international conservation grants.

The agency supports wildlife protection in the U.S. and overseas, and ordered many of the organizations it funds to stop work related to their grants and cut its communication with them, according to the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

Internal communications shared anonymously with Vox.

The agency has frozen grants for international projects that amount to tens of millions of dollars, and that freeze would jeopardize dozens of projects to conserve wildlife around the world.

From imperiled sea turtles in Central America to elephants in Africa, grant programs from the federal government protect species whose habitats straddle borders, and they also benefit Americans, such as by reducing the risk of pathogens like coronaviruses from spilling into human populations.

Yeah.

So when we see USAID, if for most of the lay public like myself, who has worked in that area, sure.

You may know about medicine, you know, poverty alleviation, but it's it's more nuanced than that.

And that's why sometimes when you talk about conservation of species, and, disease, work, poverty, it all kind of interrelate, doesn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, that's the one health approach, right?

Lee, for far too long as humanity have looked at ourselves as not a part of ecosystems.

and so to really look at us and to understand our place in the larger ecosystem, yeah, it's all interconnected.

And I'll say, you know, every partner we have across the world, the biggest threat and thing that we're trying to solve against is the geopolitics of the region.

And generally the places that are hurting the most are the are the, ones with the least amount of money and resources to, to fix those.

Right.

And that's where USAID really came in.

So whether they were building a road that got us to an area that that allowed us to increase income to people, to get them off from, you know, poaching or some of those other things, or reforesting, an area that we traditionally couldn't get to.

that's what that infrastructure was really a part of.

Right.

And, and, yeah.

So we don't fully know what that'll, that'll do.

So let me try to steal man, the argument for stopping that funding and get your take on this.

And it would probably sound something like this that we can recognize there are problems around the world, that there are issues with conservation, that there are endangered species, that there are possible pathogen issues.

There's all kinds of problems.

But we can't be the world's policeman for every one of those problems.

And those problems should be solved locally.

They should not be solved with our tax dollars here going elsewhere.

What would you say?

Sure.

I mean, that's that's the argument against involving government internationally, right?

I will tell you a story.

I was in Madagascar probably three years ago, and there was an Australian gentleman at the hotel that I was at, and he overheard me talking about reforestation with some locals and helping locals get into that.

and he came over to me afterwards.

I asked if he could buy me a beer and sit down.

I said, yeah, sure.

And he sat down and he said, you know, I go all over the world.

I work in oil and gas.

And he said, everywhere I go, there's an American making the place better.

And I would hate to think that that we don't have that anymore.

That's an interesting point.

And, and, you know, I mentioned at the top here in with this as the backdrop, you know, the other story is kind of a for for those of us again, in the public kind of watching what's going on in this world, it's a really kind of fun, exciting story that is a big deal in your world.

Sure.

is it a kind of a hopeful moment at a time when things feel a little more fraught?

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

But I do have to give you kudos.

By the way, you said extra pated early on in your and your story, and that's my favorite word.

So that's producer Megan Mack script.

I don't even know what it means.

No.

Locally extinct.

Locally extinct for for you know, and to give you an idea of hope.

Right.

urban ecologist program that Laura helped set up, is taking part in this project as well with Edna.

And that started because of extra passion.

We started linking up.

You know, if you think about the story of the inner loop going out, you know, putting people out of their homes back in the day here in Rochester, the local the extra excavated.

Right.

There's some similarities between that.

So we're we're using those stories that parallel between the reintroduction of of otters and what that means with the reclaiming of of the inner loop in Rochester.

That makes the story hyperlocal.

It also gives you some hope on what's what's coming in the future, by the way, the reason otters left the area.

But habitat change, pollution?

Yeah.

The fur trade.

Yep, yep.

All the all the normal stories.

and and when we look at the reintroductions, you know, one of the metrics DK looks at is are, are we able to hunt them and trap them again?

And that's a interesting topic, right.

Because you don't want to think about that if we're sitting here and conserving these animals.

But really that's an interesting metric.

Is the population sustainable enough that if we want to trap, we can and obviously not right now?

I think some area well, at Western, you know, Western New York, western New York, some of the eastern part of the state and the Adirondacks, there is still trapping in New York, and a lot of other states have left trapping.

Well, before I bring in your colleagues across the table, let me just ask one more question about this.

And again, this will reveal my ignorance in the field in which you work.

How do you know if a species is regionally extinct?

The way I that the North American river otter was in western New York.

How do you know that?

It's the right decision to try to bring it back.

Can conditions change enough where that would not be the right decision?

Well, and in the case of otters, then we knew it was trapping and that was pollution in the water that was getting rid of the fish.

So the otters didn't have, have fish to eat.

So then they, they died or they moved on to other areas.

But, when we had the Clean Water Act, when there was hunting regulations, then they knew that the conditions, at least for that, that they could come back.

Okay.

This is also a really great, follow up to what you asked earlier.

This is what the federal funds really help fund, right?

The research to academics and and to go out there and do surveys to look at what's there to come up with the data and tell us what's going there.

So that's another piece that's really important in that to be able to have.

And it's not like although the climate is changing, it's not like our climate is inhospitable at this point.

I mean, it hasn't been so long that this is a species that wouldn't do well here.

Right?

I think ESF really looked at, the roads.

Right.

And the mileage of roads was what ESF felt was, was kind of correlated to the population with them recently.

That was with the surveys and seeing where otters were and kind of what the population was after the reintroductions in the mid 90s.

That was maybe the limiting factor right now is, is the number of roads.

Okay.

Well, let's ask Doctor Buckley and Laura Gansler about some of your roles here.

And Doctor Buckley, as a senior associate dean of the College of Science.

And our I.T.

This is how big a success story is this in your mind?

Well, it's it's a big success story.

when David and I started working on otter genetics back in the 2000, and, at that time, the reintroduction program in New York was only 10 or 12 years earlier.

And so we didn't know if that was going to be successful.

And so we wanted to begin to accumulate genetic data to sort of test the health of those populations.

And so that's what we've been doing since then.

and we've got several hundred samples of Otter DNA.

and the reason it's important is that conservation, way back in the day when I was in graduate school, used usually be focused solely on habitat.

If there was enough habitat and you put some animals there, you'd have more of them.

We now have a much deeper understanding that species recovery has a lot more to as much to do with the genetics of the reintroduction, and reintroduced animals, as it does with the quality of the habitat in the environment they're being put back into.

So there are plenty of unsuccessful stories of conservation because of a lack of appreciation for that genetic component.

So what David and the zoo and I are trying to do is to establish the genetic profile of North American river otters, find out what it is, how genetically diverse are they, and is is that diversity sufficient to make them a good candidate?

And what's exciting, Evan, is the answer is a big yes.

And the preliminary data that David and I have has shows a tremendous amount of genetic diversity.

In other words, while they were extirpated regionally in western New York, the populations in other parts of the state and indeed the country weren't extirpated.

So a lot of the genetic diversity that was there at that time is still present.

So at river otters, North make river, I go from Florida all the way to Alaska.

So they have a very wide geographic range.

And it appears to be the case from our still preliminary but decent data that a lot of that genetic diversity is there.

So River otters are a can be a success story in a lot of ways.

And the genetics behind them will support that.

Those reintroductions.

And that's that's exciting because there's other cases of other organisms we work on where that is not the case, where they genetically don't have what they need to recover.

And so it was a reasonable question to ask if reintroducing is a good idea.

Yes, it absolutely is.

Yeah.

And so how much time will you all need then to know?

I know you feel great today in a year.

In five years.

What do you expect to see now?

Well, I, I think David and I got a note from a colleague today who just retired from a few years ago about some sightings of otters in Batavia.

I mean, what I think we are seeing now, what was done 30 years ago.

Yeah, for sure.

We we put out there's an organization, the DC and a couple other, or a group that DC and a couple other organizations put together.

It's called Great Lakes Action Agenda Workgroup.

And it's a it's a group of everything from governmental organizations to NGOs to farmers to soil districts that get together and really talk about this region and how we're here.

And I put out a, call to look for it, to do some DNA testing to see if we could find them here.

And I from Buffalo down to Jamestown, down to Steuben County, up to here.

we've got a ton of sites that we're going to go test.

Are you all experts at spot telling the difference between a river otter, a muskrat, a fisher, you know, pretty good.

And they're pretty good.

Yeah, yeah.

Because, you've got this handy sheet here that helps the public.

Well, what happens if you see, an otter, North American river otter can be confused with muskrats and fishers and other aquatic animals.

And there are some characteristics that would identify otters.

Can.

Laura, is this something you can help us with here?

Yeah.

so with river otters, they are going to be more so found near the water.

And a lot of animals that can be solution will also be found there.

But there's a lot of amazing resources for people to help with that identification.

So maybe you don't necessarily know exactly what features to look like that look on a river otter, but if you take a picture and for example, uploaded it onto an app called I naturalist, even our phones just taking a general picture.

Now we'll do identifications with you.

but if you post online, there's a community out there that's going to help you with that identification.

Otter spotter is actually another fun one where you can upload photos and people will help you with that identification as well.

So shiny dark brown fur.

That's a good one.

That's one of the characteristics.

and anything else that like is a little bit more definitive here.

long, long bodies that this, thick tail that acts like a rudder for them.

when you see them, they're going to be swimming with their heads normally, typically a little bit up out of the water, because they're still breathing.

They're still looking around for things, kind of think any other signs.

Right.

So latrine sites around the area is a good one to have signs of, and, and, you're probably going, if it was a beaver, then it's going to be a little bit, more husky body to it, and it's going to have that beaver tail and sometimes startled them.

And you're going to see that, that splash on the, on the water.

Yeah.

Mink are smaller, you know.

And you'll see them on the shoreline a little bit more.

Probably come up and try to grab a fish from here or something to make out crazy.

I've gone out looking for otters a lot, and I see a brown thing in the water.

And even I like, I'm not quite sure if it's if it's quite a distance away.

if it can get to 30 pounds, I'm rating.

That's ten bigger than I would have expected, but they're long.

so they're long there.

So, so how about the health of the waterways, Laura?

I mean, how are things for them now?

The waterways are definitely getting cleaner.

So the area of concern last was the Genesee was on.

It started in the 1970s.

as of fall of last year, it was officially removed.

So they are looking better, but there's always room for improvement.

We still have big issues with litter, and runoff of course, depending on what items people are choosing to use.

And gardens, just runoff from houses, from farms, but things are looking a lot better.

A lot of our species that are indicator species of water quality are doing much better now, like our lake sturgeon.

they are finally responding on their own.

We don't have to necessarily do those releases anymore.

That we used to do have to do every single year.

so the waterways are looking better.

for the zoo, we actually host community cleanups to help with the removal of those items from entering our waterways.

So we try and host them once a month throughout the year.

and just encourage as much of the community to come out.

we've been doing them since around 2016, when we've removed over 14,000 pounds of trash every month.

You're doing one we aim to do every month, sometimes 16 a year.

I think you're up to sometimes.

Last year that was 16.

Yeah.

So, once a month or more.

Yeah.

Lots of opportunities.

I'm sure you've got a lot of repeat people who come out and help.

Definitely.

But you probably would like more.

Yes.

Okay.

So when and how how do people get involved?

so you can go on our website and they are on our calendar.

we're always posting new dates.

our next one, upcoming one is actually on May 31st, starting at 9 a.m., running till 12. when you come, you'll also see that we will be doing sorting for those items that we're finding because we're trying to itemize each of the items that we find.

This can help with research and trying to create ways to mitigate these items from reentering our environment in the future.

So here's what I think I just heard you say.

Tell me if I heard that correctly.

You want to know what people are actually littering.

So you can figure out litter patterns so you can take actions to maybe stop that in the future.

Is that right.

Yeah.

so we actually, we work with a lot of people that will actually create maps where they're seeing what items are entering which areas of Rochester where.

so based off of what we collect, for these groups, they can look at that, create sort of, again, those maps that are going to tell us about those items.

And for the future, they can make plans as we continue to gain more data on it.

and Jack wants to know if plastic in the water is a problem for them.

Yes.

So tell me about that.

just plastic is everywhere.

we in January actually did, nature cart table.

That was all about microplastics.

there is no escaping plastic everywhere.

All around the earth.

up in our atheist areas, in the center of the ocean, our highest mountains.

There is plastic.

there's really no escaping it at this point.

And the best thing that we can do is find ways that we can reduce it in our daily lives.

and then also do our part to help the community with cleaning up what might enter.

as we were walking down the street, I see a piece of plastic.

Do your best to pick it up that this is a really good representation of the partnership that only you know.

We do this piece with the genetics with with Larry's department, but we also work with the University of Rochester in our city around the plastic pollution.

So we've got the litter traps up.

But you may have heard about around Rochester, we have 55 of those there that collects everything that's going through those.

So we can not only look at what's going in, but we can source where it's coming from.

Where are those traps?

All over Rochester, you know, Clinton Ave has some just everywhere.

and that is, a couple other professors, Christy Tyler and Matt Hoffman from RIT, are both heading that piece up.

And then Christy went with you all when you were doing necropsies and collecting genetic material.

Right.

To look for while she didn't go, but one of her students went and are looking at microplastics in the gut of otters and seeing if we're finding that.

So it really does.

I'll circle back in together.

This is, I mean, I would absolutely expect to find microplastics in almost every organism.

The question becomes, when does it reach a threshold of harm?

And I don't know the answer.

Is there an is there an answer for that in animals like this?

Do we know I think it's they're looking and going like, okay, yes, it's passing the the blood brain barrier.

And we're getting to looking at where it's actually going right now.

I would expect that's probably the next step is, you know, how is it really, affecting these animals?

because it, you know, it can bio compound as well if you have macro invertebrates that are getting eaten by fish and you're moving up that food web and they all have at them, you're going to get it.

So, Laura, do you find yourself trying to consume less plastics in your day to day life?

I mean, do you think about plastic in that way?

Definitely.

It's because again, there's no way that we can fully remove plastics from my life.

It's a it is a useful resource.

It's affordable.

it's extremely accessible for people.

but there's just little things that you can try and remove.

So for cleanups, for example, we try not use any plastic bags actually for what we're picking up, we use old giraffe feed bags.

and we just keep refilling those will consolidate and then we'll start filling that bag again.

We try and get as much use out of them as we can.

but yeah, even in during daily life, I try and get as much plastic out as I can.

but it's unfortunately there's not a lot of options to, to to.

Yeah, it really it's tough and, you know, we've been we've been fielding a lot of questions from listeners just about the effect of plastics, microplastics.

We've talked about it on this program.

People are wondering about the effect on their health.

there's been a lot of talk lately about, long term health risks and what gets tied to cancer.

I'm not at all tying this to President Biden's cancer.

I know it's a lot of people's minds, and there's been a lot of questions about that.

Producer American Mack.

Maybe we should get moving on getting a prostate cancer conversation about that.

But just a friend was talking to me recently about, plastics and basically said, we've had so many advancements in medicine, in understanding nutrition and diet and lifestyle.

And yet plastics is going to be it's going to hold us back on, you know, the medical side of things because we're just are learning, you know, as we go about what it means to be in a world of plastic and microplastics.

So I think, I think it's really hard to also then think about how much plastics has given us in the past as well.

Right.

Which makes it a really nuanced, hard approach.

A lot of a lot of things became much more accessible because of plastics.

And, and yeah, that makes it hard discussion.

I mean, there's plastic everywhere here.

I'm holding some of it right now.

I'm not trying to be, naive about it.

I mean, it has done a lot of things, but, it's just something to keep an eye on.

And so if you're going to if you're going to help with one of these cleanup days, community cleanup days, Laura mentioned the website, but you want to just describe a little bit about where people typically go and, and what that actually entails.

Yeah.

so the Seneca Park Zoo basically provides anything, everything.

We provide the gloves, the bags we provide, grabbers, if you'd like to use them.

so we're there at night or a little before nine, actually.

So show up at nine, we'll hand out those items to you, and you just can go around the park and pick up whatever you find, any sort of trash item, because all of it counts.

and so our one that's upcoming, that's on May 31st is actually at Maplewood Rose garden.

great one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So and, yeah.

So we just, from 9 to 12, we're going to have you out there cleaning as your bag gets filled.

Or if it gets too heavy, just bring it back to our table.

And that's where you'll see us starting to sort through it.

What's the kind of thing that you might learn as you analyze litter in waterways that would allow you to choose a course of action to try to mitigate that?

that's mainly determined.

I feel like by like our partners that we're working with, we do a lot of that data collection aspect of them.

And then they take what we find and they're able to find ways to apply it.

so is there something that you see a lot of in, in being littered, we see a lot of cigarets is probably one of our main items that we find.

and a lot of people don't realize that the filter on cigarets is actually made out of plastic.

so all of those items, it's everywhere, isn't it?

Everywhere.

Yeah.

Wow.

No, that would not have been what I expected to hear there.

And, you know, it can be really saddening to see that.

I mean, I my first job out of college was in Charleston, West Virginia, and I got to do a lot of work in the mountains of West Virginia.

Really, really beautiful place.

And the amount of times that I'd be out there with a colleague driving or taking a look at some of the most beautiful places on earth and going, why is there so much trash here?

Like what?

What are we doing?

Why are we doing this?

So, great opportunity to get involved with community cleanup.

That's great stuff.

And I'm sure Laura and the whole crew would love to see you.

If you can spare.

just a few hours ago, nine to noon?

Yep.

To noon.

So it's not even an all day thing.

There you go.

and after we take our break here, I've got a short list of questions from listeners about some of what they've been hearing as we talk about, the reintroduction of the North American river otter, this conservation success story, and what the people involved who are here in our studio want you to understand about not only how this happened, but how the community is doing in terms of, the health of the animals here, the health of conservation efforts, dealing with possible federal cuts, although maybe not.

We'll see what the court say.

So there's a lot here.

Laura Gaines, lawyers with us, community science coordinator for the Seneca Park Zoo Society and doctor Larry Buckley is here, senior associate dean of the College of Science at RIT.

David Hamilton, general curator at the Seneca Park Zoo.

Tom Snyder, director of programing and conservation action for the Seneca Park Zoo Society.

Your questions on the other side of this break?

I'm Evan Dawson, Wednesday on the next connections.

There is some historic monument in your town.

Maybe an old building, a button factory, an old barn who decides what gets bulldozed and what gets preserved.

This is a debate in a number of communities in our area, particularly about Wells, barns, and we're going to talk about what it means to preserve our past.

On Wednesday.

You're listening to I.

And so your customers, employees and potential clients want to be heard.

Get your message out there by becoming our corporate sponsor and underwriter across WXXI media platforms.

Learn more at dot org.

All right.

A lot of good questions coming in here.

Dallas, by the way, points out, do you use a cure to get work?

I think there is a Carrick cure.

And not only is that a lot of plastic.

Those pods I don't think are recyclable.

I think they're they were originally.

I don't know either.

I still think they're not.

It's that's another one where you go, One of the most successful coffee products ever made.

And we couldn't figure out a way to recycle it.

Not our best.

yeah, it's a good point, Dallas.

and Joel had a few questions.

Let me pull up.

Joel's here, so wants to know.

are they raising any eastern hellbenders?

A species that is declining almost everywhere due to pollution and other factors.

Let's start there.

we're not raising them, but we have a couple that were raised by the Buffalo Zoo.

What's a hellbender?

Eastern hellbender.

It's the the largest salamander in the United States.

And you can find it here in the waters in in western New York.

It has such a fierce name, a hellbender.

but they're they're just salamanders.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so what should we know about them?

They're endangered.

They're, affected by the water quality and everything that's going on with that.

And they need special habitats and some of the places where we have a road right next to the river.

And we try to keep erosion from happening.

Actually, that cliff bank that was eroding is making habitat for the this the hellbenders.

Okay.

So if we're trying to protect our roads then that's actually taking away the homes for the this the hellbenders.

Okay.

And then you want to add their term.

Yeah.

These are the so one of the ways that we've really understood hellbender conservation much more and is David said buffaloes I don't know if they're still breeding.

They used to quite a bit though.

and do reintroductions.

hellbenders were one of the first animals that we used Edna and to, to look for them in the river.

So instead of going down a creek bed and kind of turning over rocks and potentially, you know, destroying habitat, which is not what you want to do when you're looking for them.

we started using Edna to, to look at snippets of any of genetic material that might be coming down river.

that's specific to eastern Hellbenders to see if they're there.

So now it's like you, you know, taking a little sample of water and and sample it and walk on and test it.

And if they're up there, they're up there.

Define.

Edna.

It's environmental DNA.

So we're all we're all shedding DNA all the time.

And we've gotten to the point with technology where we can collect that and actually analyze that, and, and, Larry's department over at our.

It works a lot in genetics, right?

So he can speak much, much more to the, the the nuts and bolts of of that.

But, for us, it's a great tool because we use it an outreach tool and our urban ecologists use it.

And it's a way that we're able to tell the story of, of whether there's otters or not or Hellbenders or anything else, really.

Can you add to that, Larry?

Yeah.

Just to add to the hellbender thing, the reason that we care about them so much is they're a particularly aquatic salamanders their whole life.

So unlike other salamanders that can hang out in the forest and be safe if there's water problems, hellbenders are going to be one of the first ones.

So the the the collection of DNA runs the gamut from, from environmental small quantities of very small pieces of DNA, which is Edna, all the way to blood and tissue samples, where we get entire genomes and everything in between.

So what's powerful about the biotechnological advances that have occurred in the last couple of decades is that we can detect DNA in very small quantities and even some poor quality circumstances as well scat and other sources of DNA that you wouldn't think would have DNA in them can actually have amounts of DNA that are detectable because the current technology is so sensitive.

Larry, in general, how much better are we, at tracking and understanding without disrupting habitat in the way that Tom said we've got to try to avoid?

That's a that's a great question.

And we are so much better at it.

We call it nondestructive sampling now so we can go in and, and student can do an entire graduate degree without ever sacrificing the life of any animal that they're working on.

They can get DNA and do all kinds of great biology on those organisms, and basically leave them as they found them.

So didn't used to be that way.

I'm sorry.

I didn't used to be that way.

Oh, no, not at all.

It used to be the case.

Well, if you're old enough when we had to take tissue samples from live animals.

And sometimes those were lethal, to the point where you could take blood samples, which, allow you to use a syringe and a capillary tube and leave the animal a little stressed, but not life threatening.

To the point now where we can get DNA out of a shed skin or a piece of, scat that the animal has left.

Now, the quality of the DNA that you get is directly related to the amount of time it's been since that DNA has been in the living organism.

So at some point, the quality is so low that it's not useful.

But yes, our ability to get DNA from many, many different sources is far beyond what it was decades ago.

Yeah, just another reason I think we're living in a simulation.

Just an amazing thing that we can do.

Joe wants to add the following.

He says Dennis money was, responsible for bringing the River Otter back decades ago.

He got Perry's ice cream to make a river otter themed ice cream as a fundraiser.

So we hear Dennis his name a lot in these kind of efforts.

do you remember the ice cream?

No, I you know, I did a I did a presentation for our forever wild society at the zoo not too long ago, and I, I did come across that, but I also came across on YouTube.

There was was a video from like 90, 98, 99, something like that of one of the releases.

So if you do look up New York River Otter Project, there's a very old video of some releases that were happening in the state.

That's pretty good.

And finally, Joel mentioning, he says, there is a bill to provide better protection for wolves in New York State, sends a link to the Adirondack Almanac.

looking at wolf protection.

I don't know if that's further afield than what you guys are working on, but Joel wanted to call our attention to that as well.

Yeah.

I, you know, I we again, we look at individually everybody looks at individual species.

And that's part of the power of the zoo.

Right.

If we have otters at the zoo, then we're able to, get people to act on behalf of those.

So, while it is animal centric to some degree, we we really do, look at the ecosystem as a whole.

And for wolves, that story, you know, many people know those stories.

And how many do will free introductions.

The environment and the ecosystem thrives across the the area that you reintroduce them.

So you definitely have to pay attention to them.

Charles wants to emphasize the point that kind of came up earlier.

Maybe we'll talk a little more of this.

He says.

You, okay, but you do need to be willing to ask, can we hunt them if you're unwilling to do so?

And the goal is just to keep animals on the endangered species list forever.

People won't take you seriously, which is when you lose funding.

That is from Charles.

As someone who is an avid hunter.

So what do you think?

well, that was the disease.

The thing we talked about earlier, right, that you said is, disease metric to look at that is, is are we able to hunt and trap those?

And, that's a hard discussion.

And I know when we talk about conservation of species, we have to talk about are we trying to control, species populations, just like how humans control them to extinction or the numbers down.

You know, there's a there's a little bit of playing guard type syndrome there, no matter what, that you have to stay away from when you're in conservation.

Okay.

But his larger point that I mean, I don't know if I've ever met somebody whose goal is just to keep just enough, right, enough animals alive.

They'd still be endangered.

I've never heard no, I haven't, but I mean, but I take his point, though, that a successful reentry reintroduction would lead to bigger populations.

Sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

I to your point, I have I've been in zoos and conservation for 26 years.

I've never, never known anybody to try to keep it at a certain level.

Like, all right, I'm going to take time.

Take this one from Alison, who says, I thought USAID was just a front for the CIA to disperse money to for coups in other countries.

I'll say I meet some interesting people in those hotels worldwide, but leave it at that.

no, no, honestly, let me just say this about, USAID.

I'm not the expert, but when I hear about some of the work that is being done in other countries, to Tom's point about, you know, traveling around the world and finding people who have been helped by an American or helped by an American tax dollar.

it there are many, many remarkable things happening.

And I think it's okay to look at everything that is funded and try to figure out if that something is wasteful or not helpful or to be transparent.

But I would never, from what I've read, just characterize USAID as just a front for the CIA to foment coups.

I think that that is missing a lot of really good work.

I think it's the difference between a machete and a surgical scalpel.

Good way to put it there.

David, in Vancouver, Canada, says I'd like to bring your attention to an organization led by a friend of mine, who is also a former Earth safe Canada board member.

He says it's Canada centric, but I'm sure many of the information and resources would be useful to people anywhere working to protect and save wildlife.

It's the fur bearer's scum that David directs us to.

So I think the larger question there becomes that that makes me think of here.

And again, I'll start with Tom, but I think I'd like to hear from from all of you is when you look at conservation in 2025, nobody knows what the next court ruling is going to say, where funding comes from.

You guys are probably like us and that you get private contributions, and private donations are probably wonderful people who step up with significant dollars to help you.

there's funding that's comes in parts from different layers of government.

for us, it's a small but significant part.

there's the community, there's different other ways of fundraising.

If you've got to go forward without government support in the future, what does that start to look like for you, Tim?

I would say this is, without trying to go into long soliloquy here on I.

This is why I work in a zoo.

in have been for 20 to 25 years now.

a zoo is a community organization.

We're a convener.

we get, you know, nearly half a million people coming through our gate every year.

that is opportunity for us to change behavior by somebody going to an exhibit or a habitat and listening to one of our talks right there.

There's opportunity that that we can do, that we have income coming in already, and we're a trusted resource.

When the wildfires happen in Australia, I think we spent $17,000, I think, or $18,000 over, we have no Australian animals, but because we're a trusted resource for that locally, you know, people turn to us to pass that money through and take care of that.

So I would say, you know, as long as we're trustful, we're doing what we're doing, then we are a great opportunity for people to invest and and know that when they come support us, the that that good work is still happening.

even if those other funding sources.

Aren't there anything you want to add, David?

we help out, doing conservation around the around the world.

we've gone to Borneo, we go to Madagascar.

we do things in your in our backyard here in western New York.

So the more money that we can have coming in from more sources would be better for all those projects.

Okay, Laura, gains are anything you want to add?

Yeah.

so a group of, young workers that I work with, through the Summer of opportunity program at City of Rochester, a bunch of colleges, out of their funding is needs that support.

without it, we might not be able to have them in the future.

And it's a great opportunity to get kids involved in sciences at a really young age, get them passionate, and then get them out into their communities to teach what they learn with us.

so it would be very unfortunate if we lost the opportunity to do programs like that.

And Larry, well, you know, Evan, you're right at it.

All right?

We depend on, funding from external, sponsoring agencies quite a bit.

it has always been the case that in zoology and conservation biology, there's a healthy, debate about why you're doing it.

And when I was a long time ago in graduate school, we had wildlife biologist and zoologists who work together on different ends of that spectrum.

Some wanted to have animals around so they could hunt them.

Some wanted to prevent zoonotic disease spread.

Others just wanted to study them for their basic biology, for the future of biomedicine.

We all got along because we all agreed on one thing, which was we wanted to keep the animals alive.

So I think, I think if we can avoid culture wars and keep the conversation on the goal of sustaining the populations of these organisms, they can be they're available for multiple uses, or we can talk about USAID and U.S.

Fish and Wildlife.

But in general, this is an administration that has sought to cut science funding and research.

How worried about are you about that?

Well, everyone's worried about it quite a bit, Evan.

Yeah, absolutely.

what what we need to to do is we're an educational institution at art.

Right?

So if people need to be educated, that's why we exist.

So we're there to explain to people why we do that research and why that research is necessary.

And we'll continue to do that.

Are you feeling any of the impact so far in our college?

Oh, sure.

Sure we are.

Yeah, absolutely.

Oh yeah.

Yeah yeah.

We've had grants removed.

So, it's happening everywhere.

you know, we recently had a conversation with, CRT and U of R in this very big scientific battle.

So I'm not allowed to mention their colleagues.

no, that's not, no, not at all.

It's not a battle.

University of Rochester astrophysicist Adam Frank was on this program.

and we talked about a lot of different things, but he talked about how important it is, to not only value scientific research, but to understand that if we dropped the ball on this, there are plenty of others.

And I think I just want to listen to a little of what Adam said.

Oh, oh, we don't have it.

Okay.

His point was, Larry, that, you can build a reputation and a position as a scientific leader over decades, and it takes decades to do that, and you can lose it really quickly, and others will fill the gap.

And if the United States is not going to lead in science, others will fill the gap.

probably pretty gleefully, probably very willingly, in the same way that China and others will fill the gap of soft power.

If USAID were exactly what I was going to say is not there.

So do you agree with that assessment?

I agree with it.

In certain areas of science, in biomedicine, it's particularly critical because the amount of biomedical research dwarfs the amount of conservation research right by orders of magnitude.

So I wish it were the case that there were lots of other countries lining up behind us to do to replace us in the conservation biology right.

I wish that were the case in biomedicine.

You're right.

Mean it's absolutely true.

And in areas of energy production where physics where astrophysicists are interested in and basic physicists.

Yeah.

It's true.

It's interesting.

Young guy.

Yeah.

It was I was just going to say you you made the point about USAID.

And, that largely was the reason that a lot of our partners trusted us heavily was because we were in creating roads and infrastructure and all of that.

And everywhere that that is, slacked off.

you know, China's jumping right in and and building the roads now.

And so, yeah, there's they will gleefully grab that piece, like you said.

All right.

A couple more comments here.

Bob points out you can get a reusable Keurig pod and even paper filters for them.

Okay.

But, Bob, what percentage of Keurig users are doing.

What do you think?

2 to 3%.

okay.

Anyway, I'm glad that that is out there.

And that is a very good thing to know for anybody who's using and concerned about plastic waste there.

Michael writes to us to say thanks for airing this good news episode for me, it is great news about the baby otters.

I'm old enough to remember when the Genesee River was in bad shape.

It was almost a dead river 50 years ago, thanks to the hard work of many dedicated people, the river is much healthier.

The sturgeon are also coming back.

That's from Michael.

It's correct on the strategy.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Seneca Park Zoo's been a big part of that.

Helping out with the USGS and the the EC.

And I know, Don Dickman at USGS, who was the one that really headed that up.

well, the probably 5 or 6 years ago now got our first spawning female.

I don't know, I've ever since covered my years are screwy.

I'm.

What happened when But.

Yeah, the river.

You know, it's the last time I was on the show.

We did one cubic foot back in 2015, and we're doing that again this summer.

Ten years ago now, ten years ago.

This is no, I, Pamela and I were talking and you're like, oh my gosh, we got to do this again.

you know, and that was looking at macro invertebrates and different things that we found in order to tell the health of the river.

So we're going back doing the same spot, David Lynch loggers coming back.

So we'll have to come back on and and chat about that in the future.

But yeah ten years.

It's crazy.

Michael, thank you for the email.

It is a good news story.

And your point, Michael, about 50 years ago, what the river was like.

you know, I, I mentioned on this program recently when my son was looking at a picture an aerial picture of Cleveland, Ohio, where I'm from, from the early 1970s, and he said, where's the water?

I said, that's the water.

And he said, it's orange.

Yeah, that's that's right.

It's the river that caught on fire.

So a lot has changed.

It has not been easy.

but as we get ready to wrap here, let me just ask you, what's the next big conservation project?

What's the next story that you're going to be able to come in and say, look what we did here.

You did it with the otters.

You may want to break any news here.

Oh, I mean, as I just said, are we doing one cubic foot and relaunching that program?

And that will be actually there's great opportunity for people to take part in that after David leaves.

So in August of this year for two weeks, we're going to be doing that project again.

Where will we be down at Turning Point Park doing surveys.

We have multiple partners from Ariat, Saint John Fisher all over that are doing about seven different research projects in coordination with that.

And then we're relaunching our community science program with that.

So if somebody wants to go out and do Edna and look for otters, go out and do surveys with us with one cubic foot, we're, relaunching all that stuff this year.

So.

Okay.

Anybody else want to jump in here with what's next for okay.

I mean, well, I think I did, though the as good a story as the otters are from a genetics perspective, there's a lot more examples of conservation work there where the the backbone of the genetics of the group we're trying to work on isn't good.

Sturgeon are a good example.

They're all genetically the same.

Right.

rattlesnakes here in the in the area.

I'm a herpetologist, so I like rattlesnakes.

They're not.

They're not in good shape.

So as excited as we are about otters, the future is going to be attempting to help species that aren't in as good a shape as otters are.

You're trying to reintroduce rattlesnake now?

I didn't say that.

This is this is another reason that zoos are really positioned well for this, because they're saving animals from extinction.

Program puts all 250 of our zoos together to look at these species and see how we can, not only through Seneca Park Zoo, but all of us collectively can get together that, say, have those rattlesnakes.

How are we going to actually create scalable conservation projects?

And worldwide, AZA zoos are the largest contributor to conservation worldwide.

We're looking at $320 million a year.

So time 30s to put a bow on this.

When people come to the zoo and they see the otters, what should how should they contextualize this, what that means for our community?

Now, I think that you should look at it as, you know, if you see otters in and out, in the nature that we're starting to see our environment come back, they're indicators, right?

Like you said in the very beginning.

So yeah, come to the zoo, get inspired seeing them swimming around.

Go out and look for them yourself.

Go out, take your phone out.

Like Laura said, go, go.

Look I naturalist and and pick up the piece of plastic while you're there taking the photo.

Yeah, get the plastic out of the water, everybody or join Laura and the team at one of the community cleanup days coming up here.

The next one, Laura, is when?

May 31st.

May 31st, from nine to noon.

If you want to get involved, much more information at the Seneca Park Zoo Society and the website there.

good luck with that.

Laura.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you to Larry Buckley for being here from the College of Science at it.

Thank you for ts.

Thanks to the general curator at the Seneca Park Zoo.

Good luck with the otter pups there.

David Hamilton, thanks for sharing the story there.

Thank you so much.

Everybody come out and see the otter box.

Come see the otters.

If you'd like their.

And Tom Snyder, director of programing and conservation action for the Seneca Park Zoo Society.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

I appreciate it.

All of us here at connections.

Thank you for listening.

Thanks for watching on the Jackson News YouTube channel.

We're back with you tomorrow on member supported public media and.

This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management, or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience.

Any rebroadcast or use in another medium without expressed written consent of Z is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the connections link.

At WXXI news.org.