>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

>> Our connection this hour was made on Sunday in Albany at a massive union rally.

As my colleague Jimmy Vielkind reports, more than 10,000 public employees joined the rally calling to fix tier six, as they put it, tier six is a pension law change that was enacted in 2012.

It requires union members to pay in more for their retirement and to sometimes work longer before they can get the pension.

Supporters say it was necessary because taxpayers were asked to pay too much.

Unions have a different view.

Teachers unions say that the later retirement age makes it harder to recruit new teachers.

Other unions say the required contributions eat too much into weekly paychecks.

We wanted to hear from the unions to better understand their concerns.

Governor Hochul says she is open to pension reform, but she has not committed to any specific ideas.

Meanwhile, some mostly conservative critics say this is an attempt from the unions to get paid more, to work less and to send more of the bill for their retirement to taxpayers.

The unions say it's about fairness and staying competitive to hire new talent.

My guest this hour will have a lot to say.

Randi DiAntonio, vice president of the New York State Public Employees Federation.

Randy, welcome to the program.

Thanks for being here.

>> Well, thank you so much for having us.

>> Samuel Fresina is with us.

Sam is president of the New York State Professional Firefighters Association.

Sam, welcome to you.

Thank you for being here.

>> And thank you for having me.

>> Appreciate it.

Melinda Person president of the New York State United Teachers.

Melinda, welcome to you.

Thanks for being here.

>> It's great to be here.

>> A colleague of yours said you've got all the heavy hitters this hour, so we're going to work through what what these guests would like to see.

And listeners, if you've got questions, comments, as always, the email for this program is Connections at wxxi.org.

You can call the program toll free 844295 Talk.

It's 8442958255263.

WXXI.

If you're in Rochester 2639994.

Let me just ask all three of you first what you say this is about because when you talk to different public unions, sometimes there's different priorities for why they want to change.

Tier six or what exactly they want to address.

Randy, let me start with you.

What is the issue with tier six as you see it and what do you want to see done?

>> So thank you for the question.

I mean, we have been struggling since tier six was enacted to recruit and retain state workers.

Our members are the folks who keep this state running, and they deserve dignity and respect in retirement.

We are laser focused on addressing our members cost of living concerns.

On addressing inflation issues.

On making their lives better while they make the lives of New Yorkers better.

And frankly, right now we're struggling to do that.

14 years into tier six, it's not working.

It was short sighted, and we're paying the price because with all the thousands of vacancies we have, we are paying for this in one way or another through overtime, through consultants, through trying to keep the ship afloat.

But tier six is a huge issue for us because people are not coming into the workforce and they're not staying in the workforce, and we're paying an exorbitant amount of money to onboard, to train.

And the cycle of people leaving and trading is really creating a struggle, not just for the workforce, but for the people who receive our services, which are average, everyday, middle class New Yorkers from Long Island to Buffalo, people who rely on us.

So fixing tier six is about fairness and dignity and respect, but it's also about sustaining the essential and critical services that New Yorkers rely on.

>> All right, Sam, for CNN, the floor is yours.

What's the issue with tier six?

>> again, I think you'll see a common theme is recruitment and retention.

tier six just gutted.

our pensions we have approximately 65 to 70% on average, members that are on tier six.

as I mentioned before when, when, when we have a fire, a medical emergency, vehicle accidents, the members are riding in the same rig to the incidents.

They're fighting the same fighters fires, they're in the same dangerous buildings, the same dangerous roadside accidents.

And you have people on that same fire apparatus who are in tier six as, as other members who are in tier two, three, five.

So you have a different level of treatment for people who are doing the same job.

And, with our job, you know, we don't have a real long span of, of you know work or, you know, a lot of years on the job due to the punishment that your body takes while doing this job injuries are, are, are not uncommon.

you know, we have members who are you know, being diagnosed with cancers, heart lung disease a lot of different issues that, that our job creates that shorten our, our our employment.

and there's usually a pretty long bridge for our members to get from the time they're, they're usually forced into retirement and like social security or an avenue to help pay the bills and, you know, it's, it's our guys are finding it hard to to bridge you know make it, make it over that bridge and it, it just, it's become a less attractive job and it's causing a lot more vacancies across the state.

it's causing you know, a lot more overtime.

And in the long run, it's been costing municipalities, a lot more money to, to protect their citizens because of the overtime rates.

>> So before I turn to Melinda, let me just explain a little bit more as best I can, what Sam's talking about with bridging that time to retirement.

According to Jimmy Vielkind, my colleague's reporting on the nuts and bolts of tier six.

So in a previous system, tier four, for example, employees would contribute 3% of their salaries to the pension fund for the first ten years of work, then nothing afterward.

If they worked 30 years, they could retire at age 55 with 60% of their final average salary.

So that's the previous system.

Tier six employees contribute between 3 and 6% of their salaries to the state pension fund for the duration of their employment, not just the first ten years.

They can get a 60% pension, but they face a penalty that will cut retirement earnings in half if they stop working before age 63.

Is that what you're talking about, Sam, that having to get to 63 no matter when you start or no matter what you've gone through?

>> No, it's not completely correct.

Okay.

But you know, you can we have 20 year retirement.

but, you know, I'll use myself, for example there is no way that I could have made it to my, I started in my, in my 20s by the time I was in my 21st year you know, I was, I, I could have stuck around a little longer, but your body starts breaking down since I retired.

shortly after I retired I had my first back surgery.

since then, I've had a couple more back surgeries and I'm still not right physically.

So, you know, trying to get to 62, you need, you need a decent pension, you need a livable pension or you know, you just, you're, you find it hard to make ends meet.

>> Okay.

Melinda Person president, New York state United teachers.

Floor is yours.

What do you see as the issue with tier six?

>> So tier six is really about respecting public servants.

And I think Randy said it as well.

We need to recruit and retain the best and brightest to all areas of public service, from local government to state service to in our schools.

And right now, New York State is facing a persistent school staffing shortage.

Enrollment in teacher preparation programs is way down.

a third of our current educator workforce is going to be nearing retirement in the next decade.

And our school districts are struggling to fill these positions, especially in, in critical subject areas.

And, you know, there are a lot of reasons for this.

But one of the things that is entirely in the state's control is the retirement system.

So when our young teachers who've been hired in the last decade look forward to the rest of their career, and they see that they have 30 or 40 years to go, they start looking elsewhere.

And so for us, fixing tier six is about keeping those people in those classrooms in our schools and making sure that public service remains something that is attractive to, to working people.

>> So let me ask all three of you then specific questions about some of this.

So, Melinda, following up with you here, you told our colleagues and you said this past weekend at the massive rally that 30 years should be a career that if you're a young person thinking about a teaching career, that if you see that 30 years as a career and that you could retire at 55 and be proud of a 30 year career, that's attractive if you're told you may have to work, you know, a decade longer than that, then maybe you look at other things here.

For the critics who say 55 is too young to retire, especially if taxpayers are picking up part of that, what do you say to that, Melinda?

What do you say to the person who says, look, I get it.

You started work in your 20s, but you're still only 55.

You're young, 55 is pretty young.

You should work another decade.

What do you think?

>> I would say.

>> Everybody wants to enjoy their golden years, right?

And not everyone will retire 55.

Some people will stay.

What people should have is the option.

They are devoting their career to public service.

They are taking less wages.

They are highly qualified.

Our our educators have a master's degree and are significantly underpaid compared to what they could make in the private sector for similar credentials.

Essentially, when you go into public service, you are accepting that you're going to take less for your career, but you're going to be able to retire with dignity, that you're going to be able to spend time with your grandchildren, that you're going to be able to to travel and enjoy the the last chapter of your life.

And so, you know, when I was growing up, I remember very clearly there were people clamoring to get into public service.

The people would I lived in Albany and everyone was like, let's get a job with the state and you can have a good middle class life.

And now we can't find anyone to take these jobs.

And that should worry all of us, including every taxpayer across the state of New York.

>> I already have an email from a teacher.

Charlie says, Evan, tier six is the most important issue New Yorkers are facing.

It must be fixed.

I can only speak for teachers, as I taught for 31 years.

I have millennial colleagues who are considering quitting.

They started teaching at 22 and they are expected to teach for 41 years to receive their pension.

It is unconscionable to expect that in the end, it is the kids and our communities that will suffer because teaching will not attract the best and the brightest.

Why should it?

Under these conditions?

Fixed tier six.

That's from Charlie.

Melinda.

Anything to add there?

>> Charlie said it very well.

I think when we have two educators teaching in classrooms right next to each other, and one has a drastically diminished pension, it's about fairness and making sure that we can tell these folks we are going to make sure that you get the same dignity and retirement that your colleagues get.

>> So let me turn back to Randi DiAntonio vice president of PEF, New York State Public Employees Federation.

Randi, one of your points was that you think this actually hasn't really saved taxpayers in in one way or another, taxpayers are paying maybe even more under tier six.

And that's a position that was challenged in my colleague Jimmy Vielkind reporting from Ken Gerardin.

He's a fellow at the fiscally conservative Manhattan Institute.

And here's what he said.

He said, quote, people want to retire sooner and pay less toward their retirement.

Either of those things can happen only if you shift enormous costs to taxpayers.

End quote.

That's from, again, Ken Gerardin at the Manhattan Institute.

So he says, you can do this, but this will be more expensive to taxpayers.

And tier six has saved taxpayers.

What do you say, Randi?

>> I would say that, you know, I would invite anybody that thinks that to come and live in our world where our members in the last two years 2023, worked 24,000,000 hours of overtime because we can't recruit and retain the cost for that was $1.3 billion.

Since tier six has been enacted.

Those are similar costs because we cannot keep people.

The other thing I would I would mention is right now we are paying over $1 billion for consultants because we can't recruit and retain.

So yes, there are costs associated with staffing the state workforce, and there are costs associated with improvements to the plan.

And we are working to do this in a pragmatic and an affordable way that balances all of those things.

But to do nothing does hurt taxpayers, does hurt average New Yorkers.

And to your prior question, you know, we have members that have represents 3000 professional titles.

We have doctors, architects, engineers, nurses, social workers, people who can make a lot more money if they go into the private sector and not working corrections or mental health facilities, which are very emotionally and physically challenging places to work.

So we do have to address the issues around the pension system, because that is one way that we can make it more attractive to become a state employee.

And the state has not kept up from a salary perspective with the private sector.

So as President Pearson mentioned, our members accept a lower compensation package with the with the promise of a of a retirement that's dignified and that retirement has been compromised for our newer employees.

And so I would I would push back on that and say, we have to do better and we need to fix tier six because it's the right thing to do.

And it's economically over the long term, a better sound decision to make.

>> So let me ask you, Randy.

Let me ask Sam and Melinda the same here.

I don't see any single proposal that is a fixed tier six package of changes.

I hear different proposals.

You know, Melinda's talked about a 55 for retirement age instead of 62 or 3. there are other people in public unions.

Donald Nesbitt for district Council 37.

He said the biggest issue he sees is the the requirement in terms of required contributions for his members.

He says it's gouging their paychecks.

So what specifically are you looking for?

I'll start with Randy.

I don't know if it's going back to tier four.

I don't know if it's a brand new set of packages.

If you've got the governor's ear, the legislature's ear, and you've got a menu of changes, what are they?

Randy?

>> So for us, you know, and I think for others, I think putting money in our members pockets and reducing the contribution rates is a really important thing to do.

as was mentioned, reducing the age of retirement to 55 for both tiers five and six.

You know, the places we work in are very challenging places to work.

And 40 some odd years for somebody is just not realistic.

The other thing I think, you know, we want we would like to be corrected is the calculation for what happens when you hit 20 years and the amount you are able to get as a benefit.

So there's a number of things that have already been done to improve, but there's more to go.

>> Okay.

But if it's if it's changing the contribution rates, you know, is it 3% of your salary until ten years of work, then nothing thereafter?

Is it a different formula?

What's the formula you like?

Randy.

>> So we would like to see tier six look like tier four, which would would stop the rates at the same time after ten years.

>> Okay.

Fair enough Sam.

Specific changes.

What do you want?

>> again, there is no one size fits all with this.

our members, their most important thing is, is you know, having a livable pension due to the, the long time span between retirement and, and again, reaching social security age.

So with us and, you know, our, the, the place that our retirees are in with you know, the, the earlier retirement it's, it's doing, it's raising the the overtime cap to to give them a decent livable pension.

>> Okay.

Melinda Person President of New York state united Teachers what's the package of changes you want?

>> I would concur with what, what Randy and Sam said we are looking for parity with tier four, and we don't expect that all of that will happen this year.

this is a process.

And over the last four years, there have been some improvements to vesting and to the calculation of final average salary.

And we expect that this is a multi-year process.

And a lot of people don't know this, but when tier four was created, it was not the tier four that it is today.

It was gradually improved over a 20 year period as folks realized that they needed to do so to improve their ability to recruit people into public service.

And I think what you're seeing happen today with tier six is the same type of gradual improvement.

So we're hoping that we can do something big this year that makes a big difference in terms of our ability to tell people, look, this is going to get fixed before you retire.

Please stick with it.

Please stay with us in public service.

And if it's okay, I'd like to go back to the question you just asked, Randy, because I think it's really important to to, to, to really call out the, these the folks from the Manhattan Institute.

because this is an organization, a conservative organization funded by very rich people.

And this is not a something that is going to essentially cost taxpayers money.

We could very easily fund all of the fixes to tier six by a slight tax increase on New Yorkers who make more than $5 million a year.

So I want to sort of dispel this myth that it has to fall on taxpayers.

It could only fall on people who make more than $5 million a year.

>> Okay.

and by the way, Melinda, you're bringing out retired teachers out of the woodwork here.

Here's another email from Tim who says a point of clarification.

The state Teachers retirement System is self-funded by the contribution of teachers and a solvent for 20 to 30 years.

There is no taxpayer money.

I taught for 32 years.

I retired at 56 tier four.

Tier six is horrible.

That's from Tim.

Anything to say to that?

Melinda?

>> yes, I would agree that tier six is horrible and we hopefully we will fix it and we don't we can stop stop disparaging it in this way someday soon.

>> All right, on the phones.

Let me get Andrew in.

Irondequoit.

Hi, Andrew.

Go ahead.

>> Yeah.

As far as that gouging the paycheck comment, what I do, I'm a carpenter.

I just made some money repairing a gutter that tore off a facia board, and I took 10% of that little paycheck I got, and I put it in my savings, and then I, when I get enough savings, I invest it and I make the investments, make me money.

That's the same thing that the state pension is doing.

So you're not being gouged, you're doing what everybody else has to do.

You put money towards your basically your, you know, my, my stocks are my pension.

Get it?

>> Okay hang there for one second, Andrew.

I want to make sure I understand the criticism and, and Randy, you want to start there with a response to Andrew.

Go ahead.

>> No, I appreciate his comments.

And, you know, private versus public employers treat this very differently.

But when people come into public services, they are making a sacrifice, as I said earlier, because there are many other occupations they can choose to go into in their careers, and they're choosing to go into something that has a package of benefits, including a pension, and that is guaranteed by the state's constitution.

And, you know, our members expect that and make that decision when they join the workforce.

I think it's a critically important point of their comp, part of their compensation package.

And so while many people invest in the stock market and do other things, this is the promise that was made to the state workforce and to public employees in exchange for providing the critical and essential care that others need in our communities.

And without it, we will not be able to recruit and retain so that the average New Yorker gets the services they need.

So I understand what he's saying.

And, you know, I'm not going to say that there's no place in the world for employees to contribute to the stock market, but that is not the fix to this situation where we cannot recruit people into this workforce.

>> Okay, before I get Sam and Melinda, just Andrew, briefly, do you do you take the point?

Do you agree with Randi there that this is a situation where public employees are being asked to serve the public, often to do jobs that might not match what they could make in the private sector, and that this kind of incentive is vital to attracting talent and keeping people.

What do you think, Andrew?

>> Well, I it's still the same principle that you you have, you get a paycheck, you put away some for your retirement.

That's you're not being gouged.

You're doing what everybody has to do.

You have to put away money for your, for your retirement.

So the first page of Social Security says on page one, it says, don't look to us to pay your bills when you're old, we'll help you, but you have to have another source of income that's on the first page of the Social security.gov.

>> so Sam Frisina, president of the New York State Professional Firefighters Association, do you want to respond to Andrew there?

Go ahead.

>> sure.

for us we do pay our paychecks for, for our pensions.

That's that is, that is figured in with our salaries, we make less of a salary because it, it it compensates us for our pension.

So yeah, we are, we are paying for our pensions.

>> I think what Andrew's saying is you should do that and you shouldn't ask taxpayers to supplement that.

Whatever you pay into your pension, that's up to you.

Do that plan for your retirement.

Don't ask taxpayers to subsidize it.

Sam, what do you say to that?

>> I say that our our people make, you know, they don't make a ton of money.

and, and our package includes a pension.

And again if we keep on eroding the pensions, you're not going to have the best people to do these jobs because it won't be worth it.

And a lot of people can, can criticize, but, you know, I'll match what our, what our members go through.

And just 20 years, let alone 30 years on the job, the percentages, the increased percentages for our members who are diagnosed with cancers, diagnosed with lung disease, diagnosed with heart disease physically unable to move around after they're done working.

If you go to Albany right near the Capitol, you can look at a memorial with a wall behind it that we have etched over thousands of names.

Each one of those names is a firefighter who gave his or her life in the line of duty.

So our job can't be compared to to most other jobs.

our members put a lot more than the average person on the line.

Every day they show up for work and we feel we deserve a decent and respectable pension when we've, we've given up our health and our bodies for our entire career to, to protect and save lives of every New York citizen and visitor.

>> Yeah.

And that's, by the way, let me bring Andrew back in before I get Melinda.

That's kind of the argument that you hear with police as well.

So you want you want Sam's talking about firefighters who he represents.

Andrew.

But of course, we hear about police officers doing their 20.

And do you want Andrew.

Do you want police officers to be.

given a healthy retirement?

Do you want police to be maybe incentivized with some of those benefits?

>> Really my only point, I'm not criticizing you guys as much as you might think I am.

I'm.

I'm just saying that's how you do it.

You put.

My only point is you're not being gouged.

You're doing what everybody has to do, right?

You can't.

You're contributing to your.

When you're 85 years old and not able to fight fires or fix gutters.

>> I think, Andrew, part of what they're saying is that they they want the system amended where, yes, they, they contribute some but not as much as right now because they're already not getting paid all that well, they're not working in the private sector and you should want high quality firefighters.

You should want high quality teachers.

You should want people of, of the highest talents to choose that field to serve the public.

And that this is an incentive to get them to do that.

But do you not think, Andrew, that some people could leave?

Or to Melinda's point that some people are already leaving because of the lack of maybe attractive benefits there?

>> Yeah, I guess that's happening.

I'm sorry about that.

What I'd like to see the New York State government try to cut its spending a little bit in other places where it's a little bit largesse, let's say.

>> Okay, well, I appreciate the phone call, Andrew, and I'll let Melinda jump in as well as president of the New York State United Teachers, if you want to go ahead, Melinda.

>> I.

>> This question actually reminded me of a story of a visit that I did recently to a Boces out in Monroe County where, the carpentry teacher who taught career and technical education, taught the trades to the next generation of carpenters.

He told me he came to teach as a second career and he took a $40,000 pay cut to do that.

And he did that gladly because he loves working with kids and he sees the, the benefit that he's making on the next generation in his trade.

but a $40,000 pay cut is a $40,000 pay cut.

And so he's, he is looking forward to eventually retiring and to enjoying a pension and comfortable, dignified retirement.

And I believe that that is something that we need to offer if we want anyone to come teach the next generation of tradespeople.

>> You're hearing Melinda Person, president of Nysut, New York State, United Teachers, Sam Frisina is with us, president of the New York State Professional Firefighters Association.

Randi DiAntonio vice president of the New York State Public Employees Federation.

The issue is tier six.

And again, if you're not a public employee, this may be sort of foreign language to you.

But if you are a public employee, you know this issue well, this is more than half of public employees in the state.

It's thousands upon thousands of workers.

It's a question of how much they pay into their pension.

When can they get retirement?

What does that look like?

And is it attractive enough to keep the most talented people teaching or fighting fires or working for the public?

And that's what the big debate is about.

When we come back from this only break, we'll take more of your feedback.

If you want to email the program Connections at wxxi.org.

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Hello thanks like and subscribe.

You can join the chat there.

And we're going to come back and talk to our guests, not only with listener feedback, but I want to know what they think about some of the comments from Governor Hochul and more that we heard this past weekend.

We'll come right back.

Coming up in our second hour, we're talking about the Healthy Neighborhood Program that is supposed to help hundreds of families in our area avoid tragedy by having working smoke detectors, carbon monoxide detectors.

There are testimonials that it has worked, but it's on the chopping block in Albany.

Some lawmakers think it's too expensive and should be paid for locally.

We're going to talk about that debate next.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

We've got plenty of your emails and phone calls, and I'm going to take them all.

But I do want to ask our guests first what they made of Governor Hochul's comments here, because the governor's office hasn't taken from what I conceive to be a definitive position on this.

And this is what my colleague Jimmy Vielkind reported this weekend.

Quote, Kathy Hochul, a Democrat, said in her speech at the Sunday rally that she has supported several previous changes to tier six and is open to more.

She said I'm fighting for a fair pension plan because it's essential that we continue recruiting people.

But she declined to elaborate on what specific changes she would support.

And so again, part of what we've been talking about is there's not a single fixed tier six package of changes maybe that will take shape.

But I want to know if our guests think the governor is an ally in this to them, or if they think the governor is sort of dodging the question a little bit.

Melinda Person let me start with you.

What did you make of the governor's comments?

>> The governor is most definitely an ally.

And look at past, right?

We have the two major changes to tier six so far have been under her leadership, and she has really turned this around coming off of changes that were forced through by Governor Andrew Cuomo in the middle of the night.

And we had to wait until he was gone to actually start to turn this stuff back.

And funny thing, even Governor Cuomo supports fixing tier six now.

So figure that that's just so interesting.

but Governor Cuomo, Governor Cuomo's damage that he did is slowly being fixed.

And I would say the remarks that she made at the rally, which supported public workers overwhelmingly and talked about all the amazing things she's done for public workers.

she was laying the groundwork for what is going to be a negotiation with the speaker and with the majority leader.

And, you know, it never makes sense to, to publicly negotiate, right?

Especially something like this.

So I think she is in exactly the right place.

And I look forward to seeing what the three the three people come up with in terms of a solution.

>> Sam Frisina where do you see the governor on this?

>> I agree with Melinda.

she, she, she made the statement that she supports addressing this, making it better.

And and she has done so far.

So you know, we believe what she says.

She has been an ally.

She's been good to firefighters.

and again, Melinda hit it on the head.

You don't negotiate these things publicly.

she will be talking with at the end of the day, it's going to be the speaker, the leader and governor that are going to sort this out and, they all three of them understand our issues.

all of us have talked to the leaders and, and voiced our, our you know, our, our individual concerns and, and ideas and presented them with the facts that, that we've researched and you just at this time, we have to believe that they will address it.

>> But Sam, isn't that kind of an endorsement of the old paradigm that we heard about three men in a room doing all the state's business quietly behind closed doors.

Shouldn't we expect them to negotiate this publicly?

What's wrong with that?

>> well, it makes it so.

It makes it too hard.

I mean, you can't, you can't.

You can't negotiate in front of 20 million people.

I, I, you know, when I negotiate something, I have 18,000 members.

every member is is represented at the table.

They, they vote to have their representatives join the board and we work with the board to, to decide you know, what's right with the input from, from all our membership, the same idea statewide.

Everyone, everyone votes for your senator, you vote for your assembly member, you trust them or you wouldn't have voted for them.

They're elected to bring those ideas to their individual leaders who sit down and and negotiate.

And it's, it's passed by at the end of the day, it has to be passed by by both houses.

So, you know, that representation is there, but you know, you can't if you try to go to millions and millions of individual people, nothing would ever get done.

>> And Randi DiAntonio, vice president of the New York State Public Employees Federation, how do you see the governor on this issue?

>> So the governor has been an incredible ally on the tier six fight that we've been having.

She's, you know, done several changes with both houses of the legislature, legislature and is open to the conversation, which is the first part of the.

The fight is getting someone to sit down and talk about it.

And I think she's incredibly receptive to the concerns that, you know, the workforce has been bringing up and she has seen firsthand the impact it's had on the recruitment and retention of the state workforce, as well as the education workforce, as well, as, you know, our emergency responder workforce.

So I think moving forward, we're going to see conversations, you know, between both houses and the governor.

We look forward to those negotiations occurring.

And and those relationships matter.

They're critically important for communication, for dialog, for problem solving and brainstorming, negotiation, you know, is not done in public, as everyone has mentioned, for a number of reasons.

But we do see the governor's actions as a really important part of this discussion.

And she has shown us that she's willing to to stand with us.

>> All right.

A couple of emails and a couple of phone calls.

Sean in Fairport says, I understand that pension is part of the compensation package.

He says the pension has continually been cut over the years.

Has salary been increased to compensate?

I don't think so.

Colin writes in to say union carpenters get a pension with substantial employer contributions as well.

The erosion of private sector pensions is not a reason to get rid of public sector pensions.

It's a reason to expand private sector unions and regain the right to a dignified retirement.

That's from Colin.

Let me grab a phone call from Mark.

In fact, this is Mark Jones.

He was in the county legislature back in 2012 as a Republican when this tier six vote was happening.

Hello Mark Jones.

Go ahead, sir.

>> Hey, Evan.

Hello to everybody on the panel.

I know a lot of them.

you know, back in 2012, I was in.

You're right.

I was in the assembly back in 2012.

And I remember the date.

It was March 15th, the Ides of March.

And we stayed up all night passing what I call Cuomo's Ten Commandments.

And he wanted DNA database and all this other stuff.

And the last one that we voted on was tier six pension reform.

It came up at 5:00 in the morning and we were, you know, we had a discussion on it and it didn't have enough votes.

And they kept the vote open for 2.5 hours.

People had left the chamber.

There were people that were calling up.

They were coming back with pajamas on just to push the green button.

And ultimately, because, like I always say, these guys, they don't want term limits.

One of the things that they had voted on that night was for their new gerrymandered districts.

And Cuomo had his people down there and said, if you don't vote for tier six, I'm going to veto your gerrymandered districts and you're going to be out of luck when it comes to getting reelected.

So all the politicians that said, oh, I'm with the unions, I'm with the teachers, I'm with everybody turned around and voted for something they said they wouldn't vote for.

No way they were going to vote for tier six.

And they wind up voting for tier six because they wanted to save their own political hides.

And unfortunately, that's the way it was done back then.

And, you know, I'm glad that I voted against it.

The guys in the Assembly and Senate are paid $142,000 a year, and they're going to get public pensions based on 142,000 a year.

That's way more than most state, county or local workers ever will get.

>> Mark, thank you for the phone call, and I know we'll talk soon about your own campaigns.

Mark, coming up here.

But let me ask just Melinda Person does that story ring true to to your understanding of how it went down?

>> Well, I wasn't behind the scenes, so I don't know about the the arm twisting that happened, but it was in the middle of the night.

and I know that there was a big struggle to get votes and we were calling our elected officials and, and asking them to stand with us.

And I think what was a manufactured crisis at the time?

Right.

and everyone has, has agreed to that now, you know, Comptroller DiNapoli has said, well, we are, we are very well funded and we can actually afford to make some changes.

And I think we've learned from that mistake and we're, we're turning it around.

And so it was a very difficult time.

And I think what we can look forward to now is we have almost universal agreement in the legislature that we need to fix tier six.

This is not a Republican issue.

It's not a Democrat issue.

But we have people on both sides of the aisle that support this.

I think this is just a matter of doing what's right.

>> Sam, 14 years ago, you might have been carrying a hose.

I don't know if you were working behind the scenes, but that story from the former assemblyman, does that ring true to you?

>> Are you there, Sam?

I'm not hearing Sam.

So let's ask.

We're going to get Sam back online.

Let me ask Randy what do you make of of the former Assembly members story?

Randy?

And do you trust lawmakers now, part of what Mark Johns is saying there is there were promises made and there were promises broken.

What do you think, Randy?

>> Well, I think our lawmakers have recognized those that were there back then have recognized that that decision did not pan out the way they may have expected it to.

we do have bipartisan support for changes to the pension system.

people recognize now that this was maybe short sighted because the implications of it over the last 14 years has really hurt us.

you know, I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but I do recall it was in the middle of the night, as many things had been happening that way back then.

So I think that there's a lot more transparency that we're seeing in terms of these discussions happening and how people you know, what their positions are on it.

the dialog is flowing and that's, that's really important.

Like these things should not be happening, you know, in secret while negotiations have to be, you know, closed door, the actual votes and how people think about it should be known to us.

So we know, you know, who we need to talk to, to, you know, discuss our concerns with.

All right, hopefully that that's going to be happening.

>> Let me grab a phone call from Jack in Greece next.

Hey, Jack.

Go ahead.

>> Oh, hi, Evan.

Thanks so much.

Hey, this is a great discussion to have.

It's good to hear the union representatives in New York State talk about what's going on.

And I sympathize with it, but I've been retired a number of years myself from the private sector.

I'm a retired engineer.

And, you know the talk of private industry I think you know, the reality is we keep talking about, hey, we need to privatize everything, make it all like the private sector.

So we pay for merit and all that.

And that's what we lived with in my business.

But, you know, the reality is in the private sector, we've watched all our middle class jobs be outsourced, not all of them, but a hell of a lot of them in the private sector, businesses are looking to ship whatever they can out.

You can't.

I know you can't outsource teachers and firemen and policemen, but the reality is that the most of the taxes in New York State are being paid for the middle class.

Middle class isn't seen.

Salary increases.

Their benefits have been diminished.

My my pension plan.

I watched it deteriorate.

I watched my health care coverage deteriorate over the years.

So when we retired, I have no cola.

There's no cost of living increase from the private sector.

Our pension is a fraction of what you folks are talking about.

And today, my children or my adult children, they don't receive a pension.

They have a 401(k) plan that they can contribute to, and that's it.

There are no guarantees.

The teachers union, my understanding is you talked about the funding for the teachers union for New York State being funded from their donation, their contributions.

But it's my understanding if there's a shortfall, those pensions are guaranteed.

New York State can have back that money up.

If there's a shortfall in earnings in the stock market or wherever they're investing, the money in the pension plans.

So you know the reality is that you're not going to get the money from the people that make over $5 million a year.

New York State's watch, we're the highest taxed state, I believe in New York state.

When you add up all our that we pay that I pay in property taxes along with income taxes and sales taxes, that money's going into a lot of places.

And I feel for you private sectors.

We're watching unions, union representation and private sector sector is is in the toilet and public sector, you know, you have union representation.

You guys are standing up for your workers.

I commend you.

But the reality is if you look at the private sector, you can talk all day about how much people make in the private sector, but you're looking at the people that are getting stock options and all sorts of stuff, and they're getting they're getting compensated like that because they're outsourcing middle class jobs overseas.

>> Jack.

Thank you.

Melinda Person from Nisa, you want to start with a response there?

Go ahead.

Melinda.

>> Sure.

I would say private sector workers deserve.

>> Good retirements too.

this is not about pitting private sector and public sector people against each other.

Everyone is struggling right now.

We are in an affordability crisis.

That is no secret.

But the answer is not dragging public sector workers down.

The public sector workers are not the people out in the world getting stock options and and golden parachutes and bonuses like the folks that are that I'm talking about taxing the people who are making more than $5 million a year, not, not in wealth, but they're making that every single year.

They are not paying their fair share.

And that is why we are we are having to have this conversation.

We have the biggest gap in New York State in the whole country, and the gap between the wealthy and the poor.

And that is really not sustainable.

if we want to be the kind of state that New York wants to be a leader in every single realm.

>> Samuel Fresina you want to respond to Jack, go ahead.

>> you talk in private and public sector.

that's really not an issue as far as, as firefighters are concerned.

There was years ago, there was a company that that tried to privatize a fire department and it ended up with disastrous results.

and very short period of time.

So it was proven that it doesn't work for firefighters.

So.

Okay.

You know, I think that's, that's more to do with other, other other jobs.

>> Randi DiAntonio.

>> Well, I, I'll go back to what Melinda said.

You know, we don't believe in going after each other, right?

Everybody should have a dignified retirement and we support that.

Employees, you know, are given that across the board, we represent engineers.

Our engineers can go in the private sector and make significantly more money.

Our engineers inspect our bridges.

They are the ones who are charged with making sure our roads are safe.

They are not folks that are getting rich off this work.

They come into the public sector to do good for their communities and the pension is part of the promise that is made to them when they come in and they're accepting a job that's significantly less than what they'd be making elsewhere.

So, you know, we support dignified retirement for all working people.

And as as was stated earlier, this isn't about us versus them.

This is about lifting all boats.

And in this case, with the public sector not having the staffing to do the work that's needed, everybody's hurt by this.

And this is one way that we can make a difference in fixing that.

>> Randi, you make the claim that in the private sector, a lot of public workers could get paid more, and some of our listeners have been asking for data.

They said, is there data that shows public employees receive less for less total compensation versus comparable workers in the private sector?

Any data on that?

>> I mean, we we represent 3000 titles.

So, you know, it's going to vary by title to title with the differences, but are just some of our titles to give examples.

Our medical professionals, doctors psychiatrists are architects, engineers.

There is data out there when they look at private sector average pay versus public sector that our folks have not kept up.

The state has not kept up as a competitive employer in regards to salary.

You know, we would have to look at title by title.

But yes, there is certainly data out there and I can't give it to you right off the top of my head, because I would have to do a little digging.

But that is the case in many of our job titles.

Not everyone, but many.

>> Are about 30s Melinda Person final thoughts here.

Do you expect tier six reform this year?

What is the momentum like from what you've seen?

>> We most definitely expect something big this year.

We had this event with 15,000 public workers that came together and said that this needs to be a priority for the state of New York.

We sent a message to our elected officials, and I truly believe that this is the year that we're going to make a significant movement forward.

>> I want to thank our guests for taking the time on short notice.

These are some of the leaders of public unions across the state from their different fields, and they are all invited to come back and talk to us when a reform package passes, if it does or if it doesn't, we'll keep following this issue.

Melinda Person president of Nysut, New York State United Teachers, thank you for being with us this hour.

>> Thank you.

>> Sam Frisina, president of the New York State Professional Firefighters Association.

Thanks, Sam.

Thanks for being with us.

And Randi DiAntonio, vice president of the New York State PEF, the Public Employees Federation.

Thank you, Randy.

>> Thank you.

>> We've got more Connections coming up in just a moment.

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