From Sky news I'm Rick Steven filling in for Evan Dawson.

And this is connections.

It's prom season.

And if you've been anywhere near TikTok or a high school parking lot lately, you've probably noticed that prom is a whole production.

We're talking custom gowns, embroidered tuxes, bejeweled corsets, fancy cars, professional photographers, smoke machines, even sendoff parties that look like wedding receptions.

And especially in black communities, prom has evolved into what some are calling a teen Met Gala.

It's a celebration of creativity, culture, self-expression, and straight up joy.

So today we're diving into it all.

The fashion, the flash, the phenomenon.

We've got two amazing local designers with us who specialize in making prom dreams come true.

And we also have with us today a scholar of black culture to get into the deeper meaning behind this big night.

Because as fun and fabulous as prom is, it also tells a bigger story about identity, performance, tradition, and change.

And we want to hear from you, too.

We want what was your prom like?

Did you go big or keep it chill?

Did you still.

Do you still have your dress stuffed in a closet somewhere?

We want to hear from you and your for your prom memories throughout the hour.

So give us a call at 844295 talk.

That's (844) 295-8255.

That's toll free.

Or you can call (585) 263-9994 or email us at Connections at Sexy Dawg.

Or if you're watching our YouTube stream, you can leave us a comment.

All right, now for the fun stuff.

Our guest in-studio with me, Nathaniel Johnson, is a designer and owner of Nathaniel's original in Rochester.

He has been creating custom fashion in Rochester for 30 plus years, and he's taking time out of his incredibly busy schedule with Fashion Week and Prom.

That's happening today and tomorrow to be with her.

Be with us today.

Thank you.

Nathaniel.

Thank you Nate.

Yeah.

And we also have Tanya Cassini on the phone.

She's a designer originally from Florence, Italy.

After working out of her big.

Hey, Tanya.

How are you?

I'm good.

Baby.

How are you?

I'm doing great.

After working out of her basement for like, two decades, she opened her own shop in 2022 and she joins us by phone.

Hi, Tanya.

I love thank you for joining us.

I know today's a very busy day for both you and Nathanial.

And finally, Doctor Jeffrey Q McCune Jr is the chair of the Department of Black Studies and director of the Frederick Douglass Institute for African American Studies at the University of Rochester.

And thank you so much, Jeffrey, for being here.

We really appreciate you, and I can't wait to hear your expertise on African American culture and customs.

So let's get into the fun stuff.

I couldn't wait for this because as a fashion girl myself, and as a close friend of all of you, I love this topic.

Okay.

so, Nate, we're going to start with you.

What are some of the biggest trends in prom fashion right now that you're seeing as you're designing your gowns?

It's taking me closer.

It's taking over.

The most easiest thing that we thought wouldn't be is the course that dress.

Because everybody wants to be snatched.

Yeah.

So that's the big is, thing that I see that has it not only Rochester, but my friends and Philly in New York City, in Florida, in California.

of course, that dress is giving them the whole life that they've been looking for forever.

So we're really putting that together.

And in terms of the term snatch, right.

For those who who may not know what that is, what does snatch mean?

The tighter the better.

If you want that hourglass figure.

Yeah.

Having a corset will keep you snatched.

It means a nice tiny waist.

Yes.

Right.

And, Tanya, what are you seeing as far as your designs?

What are your clients requesting the most for this prom season?

for our prom, Caesar.

The most of the same thing.

They want to be snatched.

They want cassettes.

And a lot of our clients.

They want him beaded dresses.

You know, we do a lot of it.

And a lot of beater fabric.

Pearl pearls, diamonds.

They all want Belle shebang.

You know, they want everything.

Embellishment in all the pieces and.

Yeah.

And and and how does this prom season compare to those in in the past for you?

Every year brings a whole nother different.

It's it's a trend wherever the year kicks off.

in a lot of the southern states start, you know what different prom dresses and whatever is popular at the time.

Everybody shoots for it.

You try to.

You bring your own creativity in as a designer and as somebody that's making a custom piece.

You try not to go directly into what they're looking at and asking for.

You really want to put in your own level of design and your own level of skill to the look.

Yeah, yeah.

And thank you, Nate and Tanya.

what is the process like for you and your clients when they walk in?

What is that process like?

Okay.

You want me to take over?

My mom's making you this to me.

Oh.

No problem.

And we do take over.

Cassie.

Cassini.

Who was Tanya?

Tanya's daughter and assistant.

Cassie, can you tell us when a teenager walks into your showroom?

what is that?

What does that process like in regards to what they're looking for?

And how do you help them out?

What?

What does that look like?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when they come in, they already pretty much have the idea in their head what they want when they want a custom order.

And then they show us their pictures, we talk about it, we design it together a little bit, and then you know, you can get them exactly what they want.

Yeah.

We show that the fabrics, the colors, we have a lot of fabrics available in the store.

So we sure hold the option they can have.

And so we design it pretty much together too, you know.

Yeah.

They, they come in at the and then we come and we come up together with the best, you know, dress and the best option and, and I know like Nathaniel you design and create custom garments all all year, every day.

prom this is a special occasion for a very, very special occasion for teenagers.

Right?

Is a rite of passage.

Is there an added pressure when creating prom gowns?

Right.

As a designer, it truly is, because what you want to do is you want to make sure that the end of the day, they get exactly what they're looking for.

You want to make sure that it's a special day, and it's no turning back the time.

Once that day is here, you got to make sure you want to make sure that they're happy and they get exactly what they want.

You know, and like, I said, sometimes you gotta give them a little tweak because what they want might not be what they need.

So, you know, you're making custom garments for people.

Their shape, their size.

And some people want a look and you really have to you gotta read them in some time and say, okay, let's work this out and get it close to what you can do.

Is that a difficult conversation to have with your clients?

Like, hey, I know you love this, this look, right?

But, you know, maybe this will look better.

Is that a different conversation to have?

I don't think so.

They come to you for a reason.

You know, they come to us as designers and we're making a custom piece for Tate.

We don't give you some good advice.

We, some people will make you whatever you ask for.

And at the end of the day you're wearing it.

But you know we still want to represent ourself well.

Yes.

You know, so sometimes you gotta reel them in and say, okay, let's back up.

And I give you what you love because we, at the end of the day is making sure that they're happy.

Yes.

Yeah.

And Tonya, I know your, your I would say your specialty is, is gowns.

Right.

Yeah.

So as far as, how do you how do you separate that.

Right.

This is a special occasion.

But you do make gowns.

But how is prom more special then other times for you?

Yeah, we we love probably still happy we prom.

We can't wait to prom.

Susan.

Cam because all these girls, they're so cute.

You know, when they come here, then they're happy.

You see that?

Now you see them with their face happy because.

You ready?

We make exactly what they want.

You know, and you see the happiness in their face make us happy.

So that's.

That's why I like prom season.

Because we see all these girls that are happy.

And how.

How many prom dresses do you make, Tanya?

You really want to know?

Yeah.

I don't know how she does it, you know.

And I'm 100, 100, 101 hundred.

Oh.

Hundreds and hundreds.

Right, Gloria?

Oh, I, and I know Nate.

You you you kind of.

You've been doing this for four decades, so you kind of became like, I'm going to take.

Yeah.

Pretty much, I can remember, but remember times like, not 100, but me by myself making 50 gowns, doing this process.

Now I'm, I just do exclusive.

I set myself a number and I cut off right there.

Yeah.

I had people calling me that didn't get on the list.

Like, can I pay now for next year?

No.

We'll see you next year.

Yeah, let's let's work on this.

I love it's a lot.

Yeah, it's it's a lot.

And I know over the years I know Tanya, you capture a lot of of your prom, journey on your social media.

I donate when you, when your client comes in for that final fitting, and they're their expression of joy.

How does that feel as a designer?

You know what my thing is?

When if you could get them to come in and you.

You will get these young ladies and the guys are going crazy, too.

Yeah.

yeah.

You get the the other ladies, they got this look on their face in Eli tear it up.

And then you got the mom there and the grandma.

It is weird because a couple years ago I had a grandma.

I did her wedding dress, a mom, I did her prom dress, I did her wedding dress.

And the great the granddaughter was there, and I was making a her prom dress.

And a mom comes back with all these pictures.

This is my wedding gown.

This is my mom dress.

Do that.

And I was like, really?

Y'all come from from I remember.

Yeah, I'm only 21 years old.

And, you know, you know, you don't look over 20. but you've been designing, prom dressing.

You guys have been designing for years.

yeah.

What?

It's it's evolved.

Right?

Yes.

Is it getting more difficult?

Yes.

They do are getting more difficult in the fabrics they want and more the best high quality, you know, to, to go to.

so we had to invent all these pieces by ourselves.

Could just not this be this picture that just show us they have a team of 20, 30 people behind them?

Oh, you know, they are.

So, you know, it's hard to recreate by them, by ourselves.

But we, you know, we always managed to do it.

Yeah.

But it is a lot of reward because we don't have the team and are a big team behind us, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So in some time these prom dresses are more extravagant.

And when you look at daddy shoes, that's a wedding dress.

You want to pay $5,000 to get a prom dress.

Me?

Oh, so let's talk.

I'm glad you touched on this.

Right.

let's talk about the budget for.

Let's talk about the budget for having, great prom dress.

what is.

I know I'm laughing because Nathaniel is looking at me like, please don't do this.

What is the budget for what?

What does a mom or a family need to come in to get what the budget for, what they're looking for?

When you're looking at what they want and what they need.

I found some people.

They they come in with a budget of 1500 just straight off the back.

And that's basically something basic.

And it can go, like I said, up to $5,000, depending on fabrics, fabrics that they pick out.

I can find it, but it's $150, $200 a yard.

Do you really want to spend that much money to take a picture?

Yeah.

And some people, they they planned, they set aside and yeah, all I can do is not provide a service entirely.

I know a lot of your your dresses are, custom.

the fabric you, you send it off to, you know, overseas and you and they return it.

what does a good prom budget look like to get a Tonya Cassini custom gown?

I mean, we are pretty good in the store.

We have a very, you know, flexible dresses.

We have a wide range.

We start at $350, dress to thousands of dollars, you know, so when they come here, we always try to we always ask what's your budget?

So we always, you know, guide them, guide them in the right part of the store, you know, because I don't want to show your $2,500 dress if you're budget 5000.

So we try to show them in their budget so they don't get confused, you know, even design stuff.

Yeah, we'll design it in the budget.

But we have a pretty good range.

So you can come here with any budget.

We can find a dress, you know, just you can not show me a $5,000 just for the thousand.

I cannot make it as normal, you know, but our budget, you know, we put is go prices for the the dress that we give because we do a lot of beat better.

And if you will do any other design we add the cheapest one.

You know before we go.

So for the quality and what you get you know Bob you know right.

Usually like an age is around you know 5000.

We give them a beautiful corseted dress with the diamonds.

3D pieces are sparkly diamond fabric.

So they get a beautiful dress for 5000 in the store, you know, and the costume is so custom made, even if, it's a showroom piece, but then we customize it.

Even, you know, we'd fix it for you for the same price.

We don't even change what alteration is included in our price, you know?

So pretty much 5000.

You can get a really gorgeous dress here.

You know, and I think girls have a budget a little higher 2500.

So they get the ambito dress, which is still a good price.

And we have suits to the state of about 700 for our custom suit, you know.

Yeah.

plus all the diamonds.

The more stuff you want, obviously, we have to charge more, you know, because if you want all the adding stuff.

But usually it's about 5000.

They're the normal price.

Oh wow.

Okay.

And if you're watching on YouTube, we do have some photos of some dresses that Nathaniel and Tanya have designs and professional, photog photos and professional photos.

Nate, I want to talk to you about this gown specifically.

I know if our people on YouTube can see the pictures, but this is a gown that you made.

Just this year, right?

Right.

it's a nice chocolate colored gown.

that beading.

Beautiful.

A corset top.

and this client is not in Rochester.

That's that's one thing about it.

So we have a lot of out-of-town clients that fly in, stay for the weekend and leave, and go home to dressing.

And this young lady, she was from Texas.

Yeah.

She flew in, like, a couple times.

So fittings and different things like that.

And, that's exactly what she wanted.

It was.

That was the first dress of my prom season.

Yeah.

And how long did it take you to create this?

This dress with fittings and everything was probably, like, a month.

because it's just me.

Yeah.

And people are like, why don't you get some help?

I'm picky.

Yeah.

And I want to make sure that it's done right.

And I don't want to go back behind somebody and retouch.

And I'm quite sure my friend Tanya says the same thing.

We don't want people touch at our stuff.

So, you know, you can't even put a zipper in for me.

But she was so happy when she came.

she came for a model fitting, but I had to ship the dress to her, and this kid caused me.

And when I.

Whenever you get that call, it's like, oh, my gosh, she lives away.

She got to dress something wrong.

Oh, my God, it's amazing.

I'm so ready.

I could go to prom tonight.

No proms until we.

Are you going tonight?

Calm down.

Oh, yeah.

That is that must be such a rewarding feeling to get that call and your client be so, so happy and so ecstatic about about their their piece.

Tanya, I know you ship all over the U.S.

I know that can be stressful.

can you take us through can you take us through a time where, having a client out of state was a lot of pressure and challenging?

based upon actions today, we have, she'd call it.

She had, the dress made from another design in Virginia, but she didn't like it, so she called us pretty much on Tuesday night.

I was actually working overnight late, almost 11 for another client that, it was, for a wedding, a jumpsuit for, Yeah, an NFL player, wife, future wife.

So I was here at home stitching all this.

So this jumpsuit, she called me.

So I show the dress, I say, okay, please, can you fix thing?

And get it ready?

and ship it to my daughter?

A ship?

It was for my daughter for tomorrow, Saturday.

And I said, of course we're going to do I going to stay late tomorrow, get it ready and overnighted to you.

Obviously, we overnighted on May 14th.

The booster arrived over yesterday and UPS and Fedex and messed it up.

The package.

It was hiding somewhere and they didn't arrive to her.

So this very beautiful woman, now she's driving to here right now and get this dress from Virginia because they just didn't even left Rochester.

So she's driving from Virginia here picking up the dress, and that'll promise tomorrow.

Wow.

Okay, so right now waiting for.

Just want to get here.

we all, like, anxious, you know, by vanilla.

We ship a lot of overnight.

Overnight.

Because I'm not a designer.

They didn't deliver.

So they call us.

And I thank God we have a lot, in the store.

they love it.

We get a ready, we fits it to the measurement, and we ship it.

We have another one.

Just arrived yesterday.

Will promise tomorrow and that overnight this week and then, Yeah, it's it's a lot of straight days these days.

I love that you made that specific these days.

So, this client, the Fedex package didn't arrive.

They actually didn't leave Rochester.

And now she's traveling.

She's driving from Virginia to grab her prom dress for her prom tomorrow.

Tomorrow?

Yes.

Yes.

Wow.

She's on the way here.

Yeah.

We're going to stay late.

She's going to arrive later.

Don't worry.

We wait.

Whatever you arrive, we're going to be here waiting for you.

So we don't know.

These days we can not make time, so we cannot make no plans.

We have this store 24 seven for every client denied us.

Yeah, we, I want to, talking about stressful and added pressure.

I want to talk about, the need for teenagers to go viral now.

All right.

I want to go viral with TikTok.

With social media.

Everyone wants to go viral for prom.

what is that?

Is that an added pressure for our designers to make sure your client goes viral?

And what that means is, they get thousands of thousands of shares.

It reaches, tons of people throughout the nation, on social media.

Is that a thing your.

Do your clients come in and say, hey, I want to go viral.

Yes, I have them on.

Actually they're she's driving in next week.

And she said, I want to go viral with your dress.

Okay my love okay.

We try our best to make exactly beautiful.

But yeah, that's what she asked me.

I want to go viral your dress.

Okay, baby, we got you.

The thing that I tell my clients to is if you viral is a package.

I could make your amazing dress and everything else can go downhill.

That is true.

That is, you know, the dress and it's got to be a package.

You're right that it should have to have a good photography to have to have a good, you know, fair hair, makeup, everything have to be for it, not just a dress.

You know, I just can be gorgeous.

But if you don't take good picture, you're not gonna go viral.

It's a lot of more.

Add the pictures still, how you take them, you know?

Yeah.

Okay.

We talk a little bit about accessorizing.

Yes.

Accessorizing.

Your your dress.

Right.

And creating this package that, that you speak of.

do you provide your insight on what hair here would look good with the dress?

what accessories you should have?

how is that conversation with your clients?

We always ask was always ask what you're going to do for your hair and makeup to see if they look okay.

We always give off client matching 3D pieces for the hair, so it's going to look more, you know, proper and look out nice together.

We always ask but you know on them with social media they know what looks good enough.

Yeah.

You know they already know.

They already know.

A lot of our clients are very good.

You know, they know how to put everything together.

Not only are you a designer when it comes to this prom thing, you become a stylist, too.

And I tell everybody, yeah, I'm not a stylist, but I'm going to give you some input because they, you know, you get a nice dress and then you get a different shoe that doesn't work.

You're running as soon as you come in, I'm like, I want to see your shoes.

I want to see what you're going to wear.

Now you have a gorgeous dress.

You don't need a whole bunch of, a fancy necklace on with this dress.

What do you do?

You take that off?

Yeah, I do, so you become a designer, a stylist, a makeup artist ahead.

Stylist.

You come if they want.

I've had people, like, come tie my dress.

I'll pay you extra.

Yeah, that is true.

We have one.

Call me next week, actually, if you want us to off for that.

She's going to come the day of the prom, get dressy.

And then we had a couple last year, too, for me to let us, I know, dress them up.

Yep.

Wow.

And the problem is, I know majority of problems are when this prom season end.

And I know today and tomorrow there's a lot of proms happening locally.

Right.

So I can imagine the workload right now.

My last prom is June 13th.

Okay.

we had June 20th the last week of June because we have a lot of Buffalo girls.

Okay.

And then a couple of other states we have for the end of June, New York City.

We have.

Yeah.

So we have all the way to the last week of June is our last prom.

Wow.

And Nate, I want to address that.

You have received a key to the city for your, for your contribution to fashion in Rochester.

Right.

congratulations.

because you, you know, your stuff.

so as far as prom season, designing proms, prom dresses and the other work you do, where does that fall in?

In line with your love for design?

My.

Well, is is my thing is is my client from from March 1st till June 31st.

I really like on pins and needles because I'm not doing anything else but prom.

So I really have to, like, lock down my whole shop and they're like, are you done yet?

Are you done yet?

I don't know, but I love all aspects of the fashion world, like I not only do prom, we do wedding, we do birthday dresses.

And we we get a whole bunch of people coming through the door.

You get sweet sixteens, you get bridesmaids dresses, you get a lot.

within like the past few years, I've cut back a lot.

Yeah.

And, you know, you have to.

People suck a lot out of you.

and so you have to be mindful, and you don't want to lose your passion because you're so involved with it.

You want to be able to be creative.

I like when people walk through the door and say, I need a blue dress, whatever you want to do.

that like regenerate your brain and get your creativity flowing.

And like I say, I've been doing this for over 30 some years.

And, you know, it comes a time when you was like, okay, I'm going to be picky and I'm going to choose this because you come to me don't mean I'm going to open my door and say, okay, here we go.

It's not like that.

And doing this for for so long, is there a prom era in particular that you remember, where it just seems like everything is flowing and it wasn't as difficult and you just enjoyed right now.

Right now I'm like, I don't like I said, it's just me.

And it was times where I were making my prom book was booked with 50, 60, 70 kids.

And people are still crawling like, oh, can I, can you take me, King?

Can you take me?

And, now, because I pick and I can relax and I can take it easy.

And I'm not, like, under pressure to get what it is.

It's stressful.

Now.

I go home at 8:00.

I'm sorry.

I'm home today in 24 hours.

Love y'all.

All right.

Not not not not no more.

I've done it where I've been up for days on in getting people ready, getting things done.

And you know, now it's time to relax.

Time I love that.

Time to relax.

Tanya, you're not relaxing anytime soon.

Oh, no, honey, no no no no.

How many more dresses do you think you have to make?

for my family.

Another couple hundred.

Something I had to still make for June.

Tanya, how do you do it?

I know where we all hearing this right now and saying, oh my gosh, you still have over 100 dresses to make.

Now, are you doing that?

Oh, no, I like it.

I don't even give me a fourth.

Honey, I don't even have a dress.

I really love it.

He has magic hands.

I know it's 37 years.

I'm sorry, honey, so.

Yeah, but I really love it.

I really don't have no stress about this.

I mean, I really it's just your naked nature.

Yeah, I just, you know, sometimes I wanna leave the store.

I want to stay here late just to seal the dress and keep going and just enjoy it.

Just that.

Be it for me.

It doesn't give me.

No, you know, I love it.

So what do you love most about designing dresses?

And I dislike all the call of the fabrics.

I like the diamonds.

I like to just say no ma'am.

I just like the dresses.

They're gorgeous.

Really.

I like to have there too, you know, everything.

Is it, you know, horrible.

Putting the pad on those even bother me carrying the pad.

I'm making a battle card in the fabrics, getting ready, everything for the process.

I really love every single step.

As a side to the finish.

It's just happiness.

So is it.

Is it therapeutic in some sense, Nathaniel?

Or it can be.

It can.

It is.

You know, I really love it.

some days I do not be happy.

I get stressed when I don't do nothing.

Yeah, pretty much.

I say I'm retired.

Everybody say I'm lying here.

You're like, yeah, you're not retiring.

You're going to be home for a week and be like, back in that shop.

Like I'm open.

I know I get bored, you know, I need to make stuff.

I need to make it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I know, like, Nate, you say that all the time that you're retiring.

and you're still here designing.

You're right.

Tanya, is there a time where you're like, I am not doing this anymore?

I'm totally exhausted.

No, no, I'm never going to retire.

You know what?

You know what?

I'm.

What?

Are gonna die with my needle in my hand, you know?

Wow.

That's amazing.

What?

What do you.

Oh, before I let my designers go, what do you enjoy most about prom season there for me, the happiness of the girls.

I'm so happy.

You know, I'm happy when I see them happy.

Yeah.

Pretty much.

I feel the same way.

If I can get the.

If I can give you the end result that you're looking for, you're happy, and you walk out that door with your comment in your hand.

Are you ready to go?

That's that's that's my plan.

All to be done.

Yeah.

So like, Nate's even the family, you see, the mother, you know, they all come with all the family.

So beautiful and everybody's so happy.

You know, the boys.

You know, we did a lot of food this year too.

Yeah.

And the boys.

And you can see them.

They they get to see them with the Jack.

They love it.

Make you happy, you know.

Yeah.

And I like that.

now the young men are going all out for prom now, right?

It's not the traditional tux is now.

They want a little bedazzle meant as well.

not a little.

Not a lot.

I mean, yeah, I don't know that we did a lot of them.

Do they do a lot of, The the suits.

Yep.

Wow.

Yeah.

And if so, our listeners right now, if they want to reach out to you and, maybe just get something custom, maybe not for prom because we are swamped, but if it just they want a custom Tanya gown or Nathaniel gown, how could they reach you?

Or check out your work?

we have a lot of social media.

We have everything on Instagram, Facebook.

Tick tock.

A lot of people, which, you know, like that is the best way.

But we have a website right now, Tanya cassini.com.

They can go there and see couple pieces, all the pictures, book and appointments, you know, and all the like that.

You know, that's usually how we get all the time.

They can call us with a phone number.

We have all the phone and the social media.

So we're pretty good.

We should be arranged.

Me, me as well is I have all the social media.

people say I don't post enough, but you're like okay.

But yeah, social media is very easy.

you can go to hair salon, they'll give you my phone number or anything.

You do, but I, I know I for any of our listeners, if you want to call in and tell us about your prom experience and what you wore, for prom, you can call us at eight, four, 42958255.

Or you can call (585) 263-9994 if you have, a daughter or a son, that's going to prom or went to prom within the past five years, and you spent thousands, on your gown, we want to hear about it.

And we want to take a little break.

when we get back, we have our guest with us.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

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This is connections.

I'm Rick Stephen filling in for Evan Dawson.

We're talking about prom, the trends in the fashion, but also the history and humanity.

My guest are Nathaniel Johnson and Tanya Cassini, two Rochester based designers who specialize in prom fashion and Jeffrey McCune, the founding chair of the Department of Black Studies at the University of Rochester.

If the first half of this hour was about the show stopping style and celebration, this next part is about what's beneath all that glamor.

Because for many teens, especially black teens, prom is not just a milestone.

It's a moment of reclaiming space, being fully seen, and creating something beautiful against the odds.

Jeff, did I capture it?

Yes.

You captured it very well.

I mean, one of the things I'm always talking about is how prom is a moment for self fashioning for black folks, particularly how do we fashion ourselves in a way that that exhibits our joy, but also our our resilience?

Right.

these students have made it through some hardships and some hard times.

And this is the one moment where they get to just show up is so out and black prom in particular, right?

For the black community, it's become so extravagant.

But can you take us back to take us back a little bit?

Right.

How did prom I was prom birthed this extravagance and and.

Yeah.

And and bring us to now.

Yeah.

I do a little brief, you know.

Yeah.

A history of of prom if I can.

You know, in the 1920s, you know, it started as a, a real, exhibition of white women, actually, in debutante balls.

Right.

The Proms were actually called promenades, right?

Not really proms.

Right.

And so that's where the the word prom comes from.

So the 1920s, you had this really, us, kind of system of getting young girls right to show respectability and show, their respectable, refinement.

Right.

and so making sure that women and young girls acted like, quote, girls and young women in the 1950s, and, you know, we saw a shift, in what prom was because, you know, in the 1920s, it was for the elite, right?

Everybody couldn't afford it.

Yeah, but in the 1950s, right, we saw some growth in the economy, and we saw folks now taking a part of it, high schools now having what they call proms.

Right.

And it was mostly white young girls and boys who dressed up and, and they had dates and things and, and went to prom and their families celebrated, similarly to what we were talking about today in terms of black prom, but it was particularly for white folks.

And then in the 1960s and 70s, after, desegregation, right.

Integration comes.

Right.

And here we were like, okay, prom for everybody, you know?

Right.

and so you had these segregated proms where folks would say, you know, we're going to have prom for the white folks and for white children and the black folks.

I'm sorry.

You know, and oftentimes, right, in these integrated schools, there were like very few black children.

Right.

And so, of course, they didn't want the black children to be integrated.

And the real concern was, you know, black boys and young white girls, right?

That this was such a, mythological, risk for white communities.

And so what we had was black folks saying, well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, y'all go ahead and do your prom.

Yeah.

And we're going to do ours and we're going to do it differently, but we're going to do it right.

And so we see across the country now right.

Many folks who now have activity now of course.

Right.

We no longer deal with as much, segregated proms.

But we do know that unfortunately this country is still highly segregated.

And so what we now call black prom is really, you know, we live in the city of Rochester.

We live in Chicago.

We live in Detroit, where unfortunately, there is still segregation based upon class.

And so black prom is where black folks go in their schools, right?

Majority black schools.

And they have a good old time.

And part of what I really like to talk about in terms of the history of, of prom is also about the ways in which it's not all about black folks buying into some materialism, but it's the opportunity for them to show the wealth in the material and the creativity with the material.

Right.

So it's a really, really fascinating opportunity.

though it's as as your guess before me said, very expensive, but you made, you know, you made it sound beautiful, like.

Yes, of course, that's what I want.

So I, I'm going to spend those thousands of dollars on, on my, my outfit.

Absolutely.

Especially when you think about it.

Right.

How often do black children have an opportunity to dress up in ways that, exude a certain kind of investment?

Because part of what I want people to understand is prom for everybody is an investment, right?

Who has $5,000 to pop one, you know, a dress or a suit, right?

No one does.

Everyone has to invest.

Even the riches of people are investing in their children.

And why is it so problematic that we see, you know, young girls investing in their nails and their hair?

We see young guys investing in their nails and their, you know, and and also, of course, the dress and the suits.

It is an investment.

And so what I like to think of it is while on one hand right there are all types of problems in terms that we can talk about in terms of like the scripts of prom.

But I do think that the idea of prom itself actually is a celebration of black creativity and possibility.

And what what does it mean this, this style.

Right to for black.

black teens to claim space through fashion, through style.

Is this a, this is a showcase of wealth, you would say, or.

Well, no, I mean, it's definitely not a showcase of wealth when you think about, you know, the disproportionate, poverty that exists amongst, black and brown folks in this, United States.

It's about the exhibition of creativity and style.

I mean, one of the reasons why I love what you said about this being like, prom's being like the Met Gala of, a for teens, is particularly about like the exhibition of, of style.

How do I show my individual self through my clothing, through my detail?

Because I want people to realize, right, I love what the fashion designers we're talking about in terms of the mind that, like the major details.

Right.

And these young people are like, we want details because details are going to show something about me that's very different than, let's say, the next guy or the next girl.

Right?

And they are very clear.

I want to articulate my identity through style and clothes and dress.

Now, don't get it twisted.

Now, you know, because I know there's some, some grandmothers and grandfathers listening and some other folks that these children are not saying I'm only my style.

They're saying I have something within me that I want to shine outward.

Yes.

Right.

Yes, yes.

And I love that you talked on generations.

Right.

We're going to talk about generations because, you know, in the past, having, spaghetti strap, right, was wow, she wore it because your high split with your prom dress was, oh, look at her.

and now we're seeing shear.

We're seeing embroidered cover ups.

Right?

And now it's like, do you think it's too much?

Yeah.

So that's a question mothers are looking at at designs now.

Like I know my grandbaby is not out there.

Showing her cleavage.

Right.

Absolutely.

And it can be, controversial for some generational.

Absolutely.

But I think your point around generation is true.

we're living in a time where particularly black women, and black girls are learning sexual autonomy.

They're learning expressive autonomy.

How to how can I be independent and who I am?

you know, you hear young people say all the time, I'm not my grandmother.

And people get offended by that because people want to say, you are your grandmother, you come from your grandmother.

That is true.

But they're not the same, right?

There's a contrast.

Right.

And what part of the contrast is culture?

Right.

And so now these many young girls are saying, you know, I want to actually show a little skin.

Michelle Obama, the, you know, the the first lady of the United States showed her arms, why can't I.

Right.

And there's a there's a certain kind of power that black women are claiming and black girls are claiming and being able to say, I want to show my body how.

I want to show my body.

That don't mean you get to touch my body.

Yes, but it means that I get to show my body and exhibit what I work on every day.

Yeah, and I know and we talked about the young men.

Two absolutely are reclaiming this space with their style.

Absolutely.

And we talked about the dandy suits and this goes, oh, I know you're pointing your finger at me, right?

Because I nailed it, didn't I?

The dandy suits.

And now the black men are the young black men are now reclaiming that right now with with prom.

Can you speak on speak on this?

Yeah.

So what I'm loving about.

Excuse me, what I'm loving about this moment, that's very different than when I went to prom.

It was very scripted.

The girls wore color and embroidery, broderie and exaggeration, and they got their hair done.

I had a nice little fade.

Right.

And then I got a suit from.

I forgot what the tuxedo place was, but there was nothing exaggerated about it.

Now young men are saying I too am creative.

I too want to do different things with my gender, right?

I don't just want to show myself as hard because I also know that I like to smile and laugh.

And when you have a little, little diamond on your shoulder, you know, you have your little.

Yeah, a little embroidery or something goofy, like, you color your hair a little bit, right.

It's having fun because part of what being young and being a boy is, is also having fun experimenting, exploring.

And for so long when I was younger, I can remember, you know, going to prom.

I cannot believe I'm saying this 35 years ago.

Oh, you know, you didn't say that.

Who said that?

You know, like like I can't believe how strict folks were.

Yeah.

in terms of what I could do.

I mean, I couldn't even get them to let me wear a patent leather shoe.

You know, and not everybody wearing pants and their Prada's.

These are luxury designers, right?

And it says a lot because parents save up money for this moment.

Right?

How much of this is the parents showcasing that?

You know, I'm a great parent.

I spent thousands of dollars on my kid's prom.

Right.

How much of this is about the parents and then being able to this clout?

Yeah.

You know, I had a friend who said, you know, I, I spent as much on my kid's prom and graduation as as their grades are good.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

So.

So I know some parents are like, I'm okay.

Spend in because you did so great.

It's interesting because I didn't have a child who did so great in school, but I did have a child who was very creative, was an artist, was in the math, had a.

So I believe that a lot of parents are also trying to, give their kid what represents them and not allow them to just have, like, any old thing.

Right?

Because you're not any old thing and because you're not any old thing.

I'm not going to let you walk around here with any old thing.

Right.

And and I think that is about a certain kind of recognition that we live in a culture that does not value our young people.

And so every black parent who decides to actually spin a thousand spin 500, spin 200 on their kid to look fancy.

Yeah.

Or look good, you know, is actually investing in that child, but also saying we will invest in our children, we will give our children luxury if they want, because we know that the society in which we live and will not often afford them that opportunity.

And even if it's knockoff.

Right.

So let's, let's, let's be real.

Like, even if it's even this black.

I'm giving you something.

Yeah.

Now, part of the problem is having these, these wild send off right where you, your family, their cradle is, is choreographed, right?

And family comes from all over.

They meet at the house, they gather.

And you, you send your child to prom.

You taking pictures?

Is there anything historical about these send offs, that we can we can address and why?

Why are sendoff so important for the black community?

It is so important for a lot of reasons.

there is a idea that this is the first time that your child is actually screaming their adulthood before the graduation, right?

This is the time when a child actually becomes a young man or a young girl, right?

This is the the affirmation that the community that made you is sending you out into the world, right?

And saying, go forth, my dear.

Look beautiful, look handsome, right?

as I tell my son, you are young, gifted and black every day, right?

And we want to put you out there and show you as being young, gifted and black and give you the things that the accouterments that would say you are something.

And so I think that the I love you bringing up the idea that this is for black people, a lot of times a real community effort.

Yes.

So when we talk about the cost, I want people to actually say this out loud, like like when we talk about the cost, my grandmother invested by putting up 2 or $300 for one side of the tux, and then my parents put 2 or $300 for the other side of the tux.

And then my daddy, my bio daddy, bought my shoes.

Right?

Right.

This is what we have to do as a community.

So it's not like black folks are outspending themselves.

They are actually taking resources, often from different places and putting it together.

And so I love that you're bringing up the importance of community.

And that problem.

Black pride particularly is such a community effort.

Yeah.

And we know we know the saying it takes a village, right.

And at this moment your village is coming together to send you off to give you this rite of passage.

And that is so significant.

But then we also have social media, right?

And and while it can be great for going viral, right, has it change what prom is?

Because are we losing the significance of the rite of passage because everyone wants to go viral?

We're all doing this for content, right?

We're not actually taking in what prom and the legacy of your ancestors and and what this really means and and segregation and having to go through this because we want to go viral.

Are we losing the significance of prom?

I would say yes and no.

Okay.

Right.

I think on one level, right, I think social media is just polluting our cultures all over the place, right?

The it's polluting our country, obviously.

Right.

and so we have misinformation right from for social media becomes about the likes and the loves.

Yes.

Right.

It becomes about, how snatched you are.

Right.

I definitely cannot not do this interview without also talking about how social media creates an ideal body type.

Yes, right.

Particularly for young girls.

Right.

And it circulates these images of what you need to look like is an hourglass, a Coke bottle shape.

Right.

And we have that in the 1970s and 80s, too.

Let's be clear.

But I think what social media does it indoctrinate us into it and makes us believe that this is the way to get the likes, the hits and all these things, and therefore it becomes a part of the necessary culture.

On the flip side of this, though, I want to say some of this has to happen off camera too.

Yeah, and the off camera happenings are to me as important.

I know social media is taking over our minds and our culture, and I think, but we still got to come back to talk about what's happening in the kitchen when that dress comes apart, that the good designer made, and grandma goes to get her sewing kit.

Yeah.

And puts it back together a little bit.

Right.

We got to talk about when I could not.

I forgot to get my little line from a fade.

And my uncle said, you know, I got the Clippers and bought the Clippers back and put the vein right.

We still got to talk about.

That's the stuff that's not captured on the social media.

And I think it's important to realize those moments off stage, off screen, off camera are the reminders of the old days.

They're the reminders of how the ancestors and older folks.

Right, really invested in the communal aspects of prom and for those who can't afford the families, they can't afford the extravagant ball gowns and these these embroidered tux and and they go on social media and they see this and see that this is what's being accepted.

And he can't of can't afford it.

Right.

it does play with, with your upbringing, your mental health.

Right?

Absolutely.

And people are really trying to make sense of what do I do?

Yeah.

Right.

If I can afford it, how do I make it still pop?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and we know how to do it.

We do know how to do the how to.

And thank you, Jeffrey McCune junior, for stopping by giving us your expertise.

This was a great conversation.

Nathaniel Johnson, the owner of the Thanos Originals, and Tanya Cassini, thank you both for your expertise in fashion design.

If you're going to prom today or tomorrow, enjoy.

And if you're going to the send off, enjoy your hard work community.

And that's it for the second hour of connections.

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