From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on December 9th at a prison near Utica, New York.

43 year old Robert Brooks was serving a sentence for assault when he was moved to the Marcy Correctional Facility the day he was moved December 9th.

Brooks was essentially beaten to death by officers at the prison.

He died the next day.

Body camera footage shows officers beating Brooks for nearly ten minutes while Brooks was handcuffed.

Officers struck him with their hands.

Shoes picked him up off the ground and dropped him, while prison employees standing nearby did not react or intervene.

As we said, Brooks died on December 10th and according to a recent report from the Associated Press, Brooks his family has not been told why he was moved to that prison that day or what was happening in the minutes before the deadly beating.

Brooks his family wants the officers fired.

For starters.

They want answers.

They want reforms.

They call the beating an act of torture.

In a prison system that condones violence, they say, against inmates at the very least, if not celebrating violence.

A spokesperson for the state Department of Corrections and Community Supervision told reporters that the department does not comment on pending litigation.

Meanwhile, New York's attorney general has appointed a special prosecutor to investigate Brooks's death.

According to the AP, Governor Kathy Hochul has ordered state officials to initiate proceedings to fire employees implicated in the attack.

15 correctional officers and two nurses were suspended without pay.

One officer has quit.

Hochul also appointed a new leader for the prison.

The beating death has sparked outrage and protests in a number of locations, including Rochester.

Beyond the calls to prosecute the prison employees who participated in the killing of Robert Brooks senior, there are policy questions.

How are prisons being run?

Do they rehabilitate successfully?

How just are the laws that govern when someone can get released and why?

My guest this hour have been working on exactly these kinds of reforms.

Thomas Gant served 25 years for murder, including 16 years at Attica.

He says those years changed him, and he worked to prepare himself for life after prison.

During his incarceration, he earned an associate's degree from Genesee Community College, and after his release, he went to work for the center for Community Alternatives.

During his time inside, he met a woman who became his wife.

Carrie Gant took groups of students to visit Attica as part of community awareness programs, and she was teaching a course called crime, Punishment and Rights.

And there as part of that program, she met Thomas.

It became an unconventional but undeniable love story.

Thomas was released, having served his 25 years in late 2022.

So now they're hoping to lead in a number of prison reform initiatives.

This hour, we talk about not only the beating death of Robert Brooks senior, but the reforms that the guards were working to achieve before that beating death happened.

And I want to welcome them to the studio now.

Thomas Gantt, the community organizer for the center for Community Alternatives.

Welcome.

Thank you for being with us.

Thank you for having me.

Carrie Gantt is a board member for the center for Community Alternatives and a community advocate.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

so there's a lot that we're going to cover here.

We're going to talk about Thomas's story, what he has learned, how Thomas and Carrie ended up together and doing this kind of work.

But I want to just, Mark and understand where we are with the the Brooks story in a moment will play some sound from Robert Brooks Jr. the the the man who was killed, his son.

Now, Brooks is from Greece, New York.

And this is a story that has shocked this community.

Thomas, when you I assume you've seen now in the story, but some of the video.

What goes through your mind when you see this story?

it's horrendous.

to tell you the truth, I have not watched a video.

unfortunately, that murder that was caught on tape, the snippets that I seen on the news, kind of like, sparks, like, I'm a force to kind of, like, relive trauma and things of nature that I witnessed.

So, I didn't need to see it.

unfortunately, while this act was caught on tape, is is not uncommon.

so I, I've witnessed a lot of abuse, a lot of atrocities on our side.

So this is something that we've been making a claim for for years.

And this one just finally got caught on tape.

Carrie, what did you think of this story?

So I, two was not able to watch all of the video.

the first couple minutes were enough for me.

I it I lived it for eight years while I was, visiting Thomas and hearing stories and, in the work that we do, even prior to Thomas getting out.

We, I was getting stories from people who were incarcerated and their family members of abuse that was happening.

So, you know, as Thomas said, I didn't have to watch all of it to know what what happened.

I also, when when the story did break and we were dealing with, the, the video and things coming across our news feeds, I noticed that there was a change in my husband.

even, you know, at night, waking up, sweating, having, you know, having dreams.

So I knew that it was impacting him on a level that I couldn't even understand.

I want to listen to some of the remarks of Robert Brooks Jr. And, credit to our colleagues at WBtv, for this interview and the conversation here again.

Robert Brooks senior is from Greece.

He died after being beaten by staff members at the Mercy Correctional Facility in December.

His family is filing a civil rights lawsuit now.

They filed a complaint in federal court against 17 total defendants.

They plan to file a separate action against New York State.

And as we'll talk about throughout this hour, they want meaningful reforms to the entire system.

Let's listen to some of what Robert Brooks, junior said.

Again, credit to ROC.

I am a junior.

So when I did see those officers beat my father, a part of this, I felt like I was there.

I was I was him in that moment.

And that it can happen to anyone.

So I just the real word I would use is devastating.

We want change.

I want the name Robert Brooks to be known forever.

And not just for his last final moments, but for the future.

So this can't happen to any other individuals in the future.

So before we kind of get into the specifics of what these reforms might look like, what's the what's the broader answer?

Thomas, of if this is a story that has lasting power.

As Robert Brooks junior wants, what can change?

A lot can change.

prisons have to stop being a place of unchecked violence and perpetual punishment that goes with impunity.

ultimately, we need oversight.

We need more eyes and more vision on what's going on inside.

And then we literally have to move from punitive to rehabilitative.

and so unfortunately, that's not happening, in prisons.

So people need to be held accountable.

it's unfortunate, that the Brooks family have to suffer this and go through this, but the blessing is that we do have their name in a situation and we can push forward.

Carrie, what do you think a change might look like, broadly speaking?

yeah, I, I also want to, before I answer that question, I just want to acknowledge the, the courage, that the Brooks family had in and, and continues to have in sharing the story and, sharing the video and, all of the public discourse that they have, that they have had and have allowed other people to have for this change.

and I think that that, in all of the spaces when we're having these conversations needs to be acknowledged because it's it's difficult to put yourself in your family and what your loved one went through, out there like that.

and to answer your question, I think, just as Thomas said, I think that we need to shift from this punitive mindset.

I call it punishment on top of punishment on top of punishment.

and that that is what, what accountability means.

Account and accountability does not mean punishment.

Accountability means rehabilitation.

And the acknowledgment of the harm done.

And then the repair of that harm in whatever form that takes.

And I think that that is the, that's really the cornerstone of what needs to change, is that we need to focus our, our system of what we call corrections, which is really punishment to that rehab state of model.

And let me also acknowledge another component to the story that some are talking about.

I'm going to it's going to be a little clumsy, and I'm going to do my best to try to be direct about this, while also acknowledging that there's a lot that I don't know.

The family has said we don't know what was happening in the minutes before this beating took place.

I don't think the family thinks anything would justify it, but they want to know.

I think we should all want to know a complete picture.

and I think we should try to be as informed as we can be.

Completely.

But there are a number of people who see this video and see the story and say, that is a black man beaten to death by white officers and I, there's a racial component.

Go through your mind, Thomas.

Absolutely.

It does.

I think that, he was being punished or his son was being punished because the color of his skin.

so, unfortunately, at the end of the day, we have to also take in mind that, Mr. Brooks was handcuffed.

So he was no in shape, form or fashion able to be harmful to anybody else.

so to add abuse on top of the handcuffs after he was subdued goes above and beyond.

I mean, you have to be you have to come from a pure evil state.

And I think that's another part of the problem with corrections.

I always claim about the racism part does baked into it.

But, ultimately people in prison are looked at as less than.

And I think no matter their racial background, no matter the racial background.

absolutely.

Okay.

But, you know, when you have close to 70% of people, black and brown, who are in prison, the race has to be, inject into the conversation.

And so, not only people in prison who are looked at as second class citizens, but to dehumanize on on top of that, mainly, I believe, because of racism.

Carrie, what did you see in terms of that?

You see it the same way.

I do see it the same way.

And I, I go back to that the the disparity in the, the numbers.

Right.

We have, 70% of our people who are incarcerated are, black and brown and, but yet don't make up that percentage in our, in our society.

So we know that there is disparate outcomes there in our criminal legal system.

And we we do also know that, that our prison system, it is founded in racism.

It is founded in the, well, it grew out of a system of chattel slavery.

And, you know, we can we can mark those different times from, you know, from, from early on throughout history.

And, and we can trace it back to the 13th amendment, even where we say that we abolished slavery yet, we have a 13th amendment that provides an exception for punishment of crime.

So we can start there and we can trace it all throughout history, to get here where we are today.

We're talking to Thomas and Carrie Gant.

they are not only a married couple working on issues like this, but they they're going to tell you a little in a moment about how they met and the story that brought them together and working toward this cause of real reform in criminal justice in New York State.

They work with the center for Community Alternatives.

Carrie, briefly, what is the center for Community Alternatives?

So the center for Community Alternatives, also known as CCA, is an organization that, works, for the community.

It's a nonprofit organization that works for the community and many different, areas.

the, the arm that both Thomas and I work for is their organizing and advocacy arm, and, that is to, advance, what is called the justice roadmap, which is a series of bills that would that would remedy the things that we're talking about today, that would provide sentencing reform, it would provide parole reform.

It would provide more oversight for the Department of Corrections.

it would also provide immigration reform.

So, so in a nutshell, that's what what the center for community, alternatives does.

They also have other, so they work in reentry.

they also work in addiction services.

So it's a large organization, that spans the entire state.

and, and we specifically represent the, the advocacy and an organizing arm.

And again, we're going to get into some of those specifics as we go here.

let's start with this question, not a question.

It's, I make the mistake sometimes of reading the comments on social media sites, and I try not to, but there is a theme that will emerge that emerges in the Brooks story.

If you read the comments, there's a theme that probably emerges in places where Thomas Gant story gets covered and it and it sounds something like this, you know, well, maybe that didn't go how it should, but why was he incarcerated in the first place?

And our guests are nodding.

They've heard that it's this idea that, well, this person committed an act of violence.

So, you know, if something happens to them, it's really all on them.

And you've heard that kind of theme, you know, in your life, Thomas.

Yes, yes, yes.

I mean, I've even heard it with my own situation of being convicted.

Second of murder and going to prison.

But, one of the things that I'll say is that most people who commit violence, that wasn't the first time they were, have some sort of interaction with violence.

Most people who commit violence are survivors of violence themselves, whether it be physical, mental or emotional.

So at the end of the day, that's a human being who have been, damaged and seeking repair and repair.

so when you find people who are incarcerated who went to prison for violent crimes, the thought should be right that we should try to correct that harm and trauma that they're carrying and equipped in to be more, powerful and, efficient upon their return.

So a person who goes to prison, who was not sentenced by a judge for a death sentence, should not be killed, because of maybe they committed a violent act, just like myself.

what about the redemptive aspect of it?

Everybody should be able to work towards that redemption.

So, even for me, a person who committed a violent crime, one of the things that I wanted to do to prove my remorse regret is not talk about it, but actually be about it.

Let my behaviors, let my accomplishments, let my contribution that I give to my environment, my community, reflect that remorse and regret and even redemption that I'm seeking.

So just because a person may be in prison for violence doesn't mean that they should be given a death sentence, especially if the judge didn't sentenced him to that.

You're from Buffalo originally?

Yes, sir.

Were you exposed to violence when you were growing up?

absolutely.

I grew up in the inner city of Buffalo, the East Side Central Park neighborhood, and, so drugs, violence, despair.

But more importantly, poverty was all around me.

I don't like to use it as an excuse.

Right.

Because I had several family members and friends who grew up in those same environments.

They didn't end up in prison.

They didn't shoot someone and things, nature.

Those things impacted me.

When I walked outside of my door.

I was more likely to trip into trouble as opposed to opportunity.

And so and that's what poverty is that's plaguing not only Buffalo, but Rochester, Syracuse, New York City, is that it isn't.

wealth is the lack of opportunities.

And so for me, poverty is not it's more about not having opportunities and access to opportunities to make life better for themselves.

I don't hear you making an excuse, to be honest.

I hear you offering a real analysis of what's going on, and I don't hear you saying it's inevitable that everybody who grows up in circumstances like that ends up in a violent situation.

But it's certainly more common, and it is certainly more prevalent as you describe.

So how do you end up in a situation where, you know, where you're committing an act of violence that gets you a 25 year sentence?

What happened?

Yeah.

So, and I had to do a lot of introspection and gain accountability.

during my incarceration.

And so one of the things I try to start with was everything around me.

Now, that wasn't the right way, because you should start with yourself.

But that's just how my 21 year old mind was working when I was convicted.

And then sent to Attica, and I wanted to figure out why did I end up here?

was it because it was a white judge?

Was it because it was a white D.A.?

Was it because I didn't have proper representation?

was it because a harm was done to me and my family, and I was just seeking revenge?

Was it that my father wasn't in my household?

And so as I began to peel back all those layers, I started looking at, I was carrying a lot of trauma and things that went unaddressed.

I had low self-esteem.

I was I didn't have a hope or vision, of a better life.

Right.

And so I kind of succumb to the peer pressures that was around me.

I was in college.

My plan was to actually go to college, be an architectural engineer and play football for for the Buffalo Bills, of course.

Right.

And course.

And by the way, had I held onto that dream and did it, the bills would want to Super Bowl by now.

But I don't want to digress and get off the point that I'm making.

Yeah.

so but I didn't have the tools necessary to attain those goals.

So yeah, I was in college, but didn't have the tools necessary to help me understand that you can have a dream, but you got to be able to go after it.

And here's some goals to do that, right.

I didn't feel good within myself.

because when I faced those peer pressures, I succumb to them.

So had I could, you know, name and feel good about myself, my my self-esteem could have been raised.

I could have fought those peer pressures, which is why I do the work that I do now as far as working with youth.

But having more opportunities.

So for me, it I only saw, you know, football or I got it.

it had I had more opportunities given to me and let me know that I can be more than just a football player, more than just acting.

Those are great professions.

But there's other things that I'm finding out that I'm that I'm good at now.

So I didn't have those skills or those opportunities, afforded me.

Unfortunately.

But, so when I went to college, I decided that I wanted to fix my problem dealing with poverty, my mother raising me and my three sisters.

I wanted to help her.

I wanted to fix that situation.

So that was good.

But I went about trying to fix that situation the wrong way.

I chose, to drop out of college and start selling drugs because for me and my community, those people seem more, successful, right?

I didn't see doctors.

I didn't see lawyers, although I had neighbors who was 9 to 5 years and doing the right thing.

that didn't appeal to me.

drug dealing lifestyle seemed very easy, harmless and luxurious.

So I did that.

Now, obviously, I know now that there's nothing harmless about selling drugs or being involved in that neighborhood.

You got to take on all these different characteristics, unlike yourself.

And so my original plan of getting in, get some quick money and getting out, I floated away from, and it became selfish.

And I embody that lifestyle and that in that horrible mentality of being a drug dealer.

And so, an act was committed against me and, some of my family members, I got mad, angry, took matters into my own hands and went and shot the guy who shot them.

Now, I didn't necessarily mean to kill him.

I did want to protect that reputation.

Didn't want to follow College Street, but that still was the wrong way and avenue to address that.

That issue, right.

There were so many other opportunities ahead.

And so but realizing that, how can I repair that?

So when I went to prison, you can never make up for taking a life, right?

No matter what I do in my life, I could never make full amends to the families, to the community who I interrupted that day.

it was one bullet who killed the person and my situation.

that took four seconds to commit.

So that four seconds interrupted lives that I can't even imagine.

The EMTs, the district attorneys who had to see the videos.

the lady who gunshots when they rang out was interrupted by that to police.

The judge.

So the list goes on for all the people are impacted.

And once I embody that and grabbed that and my young mind in prison, I said, I got to try to make up for that.

And one of the ways I want to make up for it is make sure that no other family has experienced that by, helping to build and empower youth with self-esteem.

Mentoring them?

Let them know what is going on.

Let them know how terrible prisons is, and also try to fix the prison situation environment so that people can have that ability to address the issues and traumas that they have, which is going on hurt in prison.

And so people find themselves hopeless and despair.

So this is why, I've been called, I feel, to be able to do this work because, it's not only beneficial to me, but and try to make amends for the families who I who I've harmed.

But my point of repair, my community and the younger folks and other people who still stuck in this poverty stricken environment to try to help lift them out of this.

You talk about what was appealing in your young mind about drug dealing, and why that had cachet with you.

What do you think is going to be effective for someone in that position today?

I mean, I don't do people.

You've got credibility.

I understand that, but, what are young people listening to?

What's going to effectively, number one, make that choice, something that they don't make.

And then we'll talk about real systemic issues that, I mean, go a little bit deeper than that, but is there something that is going to intervene and say, you know, this, this person did not choose that?

yeah.

So there's a holistic approach.

one of the things that I'm learning with working with youth and just humans in general is that it's very complex.

So there's no cookie cutter answer that will solve everybody's problems.

Right?

So some people need, to deal with the, the lack of structure in family home.

Right.

Maybe one of the parents is missing.

Some people need to deal with the domestic violence that they are survivors of.

Some people need to deal with self-esteem issues.

Some people need skills opportunities.

Some people need more than just being able to be a football player or rapper in our community.

And then we need the systemic issues and we need help from everybody, right?

Our elected officials need to be more present.

Our entertainers need to take some accountability and, put a spotlight on other different things.

But more importantly, I would say opportunities.

That is a key thing.

Give people hope.

and so one of the things that we do and I this is why I love seeing it for community alternatives, is that give people hope.

And we put them into platforms and situations and rooms that not only will allow them to be seen, but allow them to have a seat at the table.

Most people who dealing with these problems that we have right now don't have a seat at the table.

And what CCA does very well say these are people that's closest to the problems.

So they're the ones that's closest to the solution.

Let's see what they got to say.

Right.

And so that's some of the things that we focus on.

And it's kind of like built in power.

And people already have power.

They already resilient.

But when you give them a platform they flourish.

I'm still learning, right.

Even though I'm navigating this and I'm so fortunate, you know, to have my wife, and family support me.

But there's people who don't have that.

And so one of the things that we try to do, SCC, with our work is to build power by putting them in these rooms, these spaces, let them know that we see you.

We understand that.

And now here, let's, come up with a solution together.

Let me turn to Carrie, and I'm going to read an email from a listener named Alex who says, along these lines, how can we have more productive conversations about avoiding the need for prisons all together?

We know that lead exposure, adverse childhood experiences, and drug addiction are some of the key drivers that predispose people to commit crimes as an adult.

Decades of research shows that when a child at risk receives early intervention and behavioral support, they're much less likely to commit crime.

Spending $10,000 per child per year now could say $50,000 per inmate per year in 20 years, but it's always just a punish the bad guys approach.

Read any Facebook comments that I told you not to do that Alex.

Read any Facebook comment section for the local news affiliates.

It's never about improving youth services, just about locking people up.

Make good policy decisions so people don't make bad choices.

How do we remember the human being in this process?

That's Alex, what do you think, Carrie?

Yeah, I say I'm anti Alex first of all.

So, Yeah.

And I agree wholeheartedly.

It is it it is all that Alex said.

And I do think that it starts, it starts in schools.

it starts with keeping kids in schools.

it starts with the the conversation that we had here locally over the, the weekend.

We had, Oh, my gosh, I'm, forgetting his name right now.

And Grant.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So we had Ben Crump, in talking about our educational system and, you know, charter champions and and talking about, rather than focusing on, like, you know, how to get things done and focusing on the why and the why is our kids right.

And, and I do believe, you know, that that more restorative justice programs in schools keeping kids in schools, reducing our suspension rates.

I think the state is going in the right direction with, the direction they're going with Regents exams and graduation requirements.

but all of those things and, getting more, services, you know, our social emotional services in schools to help kids deal with trauma when they're young.

it doesn't just start when they're, young teenagers.

It starts when they're in elementary school.

It starts with also, building up families.

we have organizations here in, in Rochester, that are, that are doing really good work.

our math and their upward or upward mobility, initiative.

so, you know, really investing in our communities and investing in youth, that's going to make a difference.

And I want to just piggyback off of, opportunities, you know, for, for youth like, I think that also starts in schools, like really being able to provide real opportunities and expose our kids to things that are going to ignite their interest and, and get them to buy into our, to education, get them to buy into life, being lifelong learners and critical thinking.

you know, I'm working right now with, a wonderful, office.

Our, our public defender's office, Julie Scieszka and, Vincent French, they actually, started a program called The defenders of Tomorrow program, and that's exposing kids to the other side of the criminal legal system.

Right?

Providing those opportunities that, you know, when you bring kids in, they may not have even thought about a career, helping people who are experiencing the legal system.

So, again, just providing those opportunities and and we have we have the resources here in Rochester.

We have the money here in Rochester.

We have to have the will both the, the citizenry will and the political will to put our egos behind us.

And really, you know, think about and talk about the why.

And that's our kids when we come back from the only break of the hour, I've spent some time reading the rather extensive blog that these two have written, and I want to say, it is an unlikely love story, but it is worth revisiting how they met, how they got together, and then if they're going to be successful in this partnership going forward in terms of reforms, what those reforms look like to especially the state level, we're talking to Thomas Gant and Carrie Gant.

they're working with the center for Community Alternatives, and we are right back with them after this only break.

Coming up in our second hour, one of the last places that enslaved Africans would see before the ocean was at the edge of the country that is now Ghana.

And if you go to Ghana, you can see these dungeons, you can see the history commemorated.

Sean Nelms, a local leader, recently took his children to Ghana.

He has come back a kind of evangelist for this kind of experiential travel.

And we'll talk about it next hour.

President Donald Trump has returned to power as the nation's 47th president.

He promises a raft of policies targeting immigration, gender, energy and more.

I'm Ailsa Chang.

Join us as we unpack Trump's first full day in office on All Things Considered.

From NPR news.

This afternoon at four.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, if you're listening, and I on iOS, Finger Lakes Public Radio and the sexy mobile app Sexy News, Dawg.

Or if you're watching on the Sexy News YouTube channel.

Hello.

There are a lot of ways to interact with the program.

You can call toll free 844295 talk.

It's 84429582552636.

If you're calling from Rochester 2639994, email the program as Alex did in the first half hour.

Connections at cyborg joined the chat on, the YouTube channel there for six nine news.

And, we'll work in feedback, every day on this program you just heard NPR mentioned they, of course, are covering the first week of this new, presidential ministration, meet the new president, same as the old president.

And they're talking about what's going on in Washington.

Now, we, of course, will continue to have conversations here that relate to what is happening with the new administration, with the inauguration, with some of the issues.

And we're going to have a full day devoted to that tomorrow as well.

But I think that does relate a little bit here.

I mean, Carrie was just talking about before the break, you were just talking about ways that the mindset shift, could actually happen.

But I'm looking at the culture now, and one of my observations is, culturally, the ascendant force would probably look at issues like this with a more punitive lens, less restorative justice, restorative practices, rehabilitative.

And I'm not making a blanket statement that if you voted for Trump, you don't care about.

I'm not saying this about everybody, but right now it is more punitive.

It is in regards to everything from immigration, prison reform, sentencing, etc.

do you see it that way?

I do, but I also see it tied into the the who is committing crimes.

Right.

So I see it tied into that piece that we talked about earlier, with, the, our foundation in racism.

Right.

Because we, we do tend to have to, to justice system sometimes that, that, that the rich, experience and that, that the poor experience and there's, you know, a ton of research out there to, to support that.

so, you know, I think it depends on who you're looking at.

I mean, the the reality is, is that the person who was sworn in yesterday is a convicted felon.

So one would think that we would be going the opposite way in, in criminal legal reform.

And to more opportunities for people who have experienced, the legal system.

So that is my hope.

I remain optimistic in that.

But the reality is, particularly here in upstate New York, we tend to in our, some of our state lawmakers tend to be more punitive focused.

But we do have, a delegation from Rochester that is doing really good work.

and I know that we're going to get into those in a minute.

I'm curious to know what your husband thinks of that.

So the new president, convicted of felonies, elected.

Anyway, it's a moment of of prison.

And in criminal justice reform, people are seeing the need to rehabilitate and give chances for everybody.

You know, not just the rich and the powerful.

Yes.

No.

Yeah.

so that's what I hope.

I mean, just think about this.

You're on camera now on YouTube.

We can see your reaction.

You're trying you're trying to buy it.

Right?

So I mean, it's just still mind boggling that, you know, he can't own a gun, but he can have the nuclear codes, at his fingertips, so just, you know, doesn't just make sense.

But, I'm hoping that we can seize, on this opportunity.

Because just because, a person may have made a bad decision, they can still, you know, be the president.

So.

And those same, those same ideologies need to apply, and our work that we do as well, for people who are willing to put in the work.

You've talked about your own views on accountability, by the way.

I've talked about 25 year sentence.

Did you serve all 25 or you out or how many years did you serve?

So I served 24, years and six months.

So you went to prison 98, 990?

Yep.

Okay.

I mean, you went to prison when Bill Clinton was president.

Yes.

And, you come out when Joe Biden is president.

A lot has changed.

these didn't exist when you went to prison.

It's a better world without them, I think, holding up smart phones there.

But you get to meet Kerry throughout this time.

Now, Kerry, you've been doing work bringing groups in.

Can you just describe for listeners how you met Thomas, first of all, yes.

so I, I was bringing students in, through the community awareness program into Attica.

I started bringing students in around 2005, 2006, high school students.

High school students.

Yep.

It was well, I started off, it was, it was a constitutional law course, but it turns out that high schoolers don't really want to take constitutional law.

So I jazz it up a little bit.

We called it crime, punishment and rights.

And one of the, advantages of, taking the class was, being able to go to prison.

And that was my, like, sales line to us.

Hey, you want to go to prison?

And, and they they signed up.

I ended up having four sections.

Anyone who's a teacher can appreciate those those numbers of that elective and brought two groups in, one in the fall and one in the spring to Attica to, experience the community awareness program.

And as I was doing that throughout the years, over 1213 years, Thomas was what I would call like the head facilitator of that program.

And we only communicated, only through his counselor or through the counselor that was running the program.

And, I was getting set to bring another group in, in that spring.

And I got a a letter that said that, Thomas wouldn't be at that program and, that he I joke with him, his pick up line was, if I had one parting wish, it would be to keep in contact with me.

I let the letter sit for quite a while.

That's what you wrote, I wrote it.

That's smooth.

Oh.

Thank you.

Okay, I'll take it then.

That's really good.

Yeah, so I left.

It didn't work right away.

I, I left the letter, sat for a while.

I went in, brought the students in one in on the program, and then, decided that I would just write them back and let them know that the the program went well, and, we started communicating, via what we call snail mail back then, back and forth.

And here we are almost ten years later, married.

And, I get to also enjoy, married life with him here on the outside.

So, when did you realize how remarkable a person you thought he was?

Yeah.

So in, initially, you know, there was a lot of trepidation for me to write him back just because of his situation.

But the one thing that, that I knew was that his story never changed.

I knew that he was accountable in his.

What I called in his spirit for the things that he had done.

And, and I knew how he interacted with my students, because, you know, any teacher, any good teacher is very protective over.

They call them, you know, we I call them my kids.

Absolutely.

And so I knew that's when I knew what kind of man he was in the character that he possessed, even though he was in prison.

And through the letters, it was really early on when I started to really hear more about, who he was outside of that program and the things that he was involved in.

And the the ways in which he thought that really sparked my interest.

So it really was early on, I would say within, like the first five letters that I was like, oh, wow.

So if you'll allow me just two seconds to explain the background to this.

So I was just getting out of a very bad relationship.

It was, it was mentally abusive.

and I when I say just it was about two years, I had done a lot of work on myself, but the last thing that I wanted was to get into another relationship.

you know, initially out of that, out of that relationship, but two years later, I really had felt like I had done some work on myself.

I was ready to, like, get out there.

I had gone on the the online apps.

It's really bad out there.

So I had it's really bad here.

I do not suggest.

so I had prayed actually both, Thomas and I are of Christian faith, and I had prayed for God to send me someone that was worthy of me.

you know, because I really did feel like I deserved, you know, like someone who was going to really see me for me.

about five letters in.

That's why I said, allow me this.

About five letters.

And I looked up at the sky and I was like, really?

This is who you're sending me?

He's in prison.

God.

And it was clear that, that was the answer to my prayer.

Like, this is it did you have people in your life who told you, like you can't date a guy who's incarcerated for murder?

Oh, that's a great question.

I actually the only people in my life, fit in.

Well, even after we got married that knew about my relationship with Thomas in prison, where, was my son who lived at home still at the time.

And my sister, I didn't even tell my family initially, that I had even gotten married.

So.

So I had one friend who knew, and, she asked that question.

my sister saw and saw the happiness that I was experiencing, and she was willing to support it.

my son saw the same thing.

And his girlfriend at the time, so they were willing to support it.

but I'm also happy to report that within the year that Thomas and I were married, my entire family fell in love with him as well.

And, I think actually, my mom likes him more than she likes me.

Yeah, she does, I mean, she you married a pretty remarkable person, too, didn't you?

Yes.

Yeah.

I'm blessed.

I did the same.

in short, because I could spend hours talking about just the beautiful person that she is, the things that I saw in her, and the fact that I want it to be in partnership, for life with somebody like this.

But, just her intelligence, the care that she had for her kids, the passion for this work.

And, and, by the way, in these programs, me being like, the lead facilitator, we specifically wanted to go in there with integrity.

as we're down here for kids, we're here to build these kids up to make sure no other family member has to come through these doors.

And Atika, and no other person in our community, guitar.

so that's the approach that we did.

So we had a strict non crossing the line type of thing.

So it wasn't until I was transferred out of Attica where I was able to then say, you know, I think I'm gonna reach out, to this teacher and person, what a story.

And now again, if you're just joining us, Thomas and Kerry Gant do, work in various capacities for the center for Community Alternatives.

They are community advocates, and they are working on a number of reforms here that, Well, I mean, the reason for these reforms we talked about, as Alex emailed, the desire to make sure people don't go down this road.

But if you do, is it just is it rehabilitation?

you know, again, we acknowledge there's people who are going to be listening to this conversation who think you should not have gotten a degree in prison.

Why are you getting to take college classes?

You know, you're in there for murder.

You end up taking college classes.

It was good for you.

It sounds like to I mean, the experience sounds like it was good for you.

It was helpful for you.

But, you know, there's citizens who say they'll use my tax dollars on that.

What do you say to them?

Well, first of all, it wasn't a tax dollars.

I was fortunate to have, people subsidized at a decent showing.

Ladies.

Warren Buffett, sister doors.

Buffett.

God bless you.

Since passed away, actually pay for 17 of us to get, our college degree.

Doris buffett doors.

Buffett.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So I mean, and an a blessing.

So, she knew that higher education is the great eradicator to poverty and people who are stricken by that.

So although I was, in prison, it was mainly because of a lack of opportunity.

And she understood that education is a great eradicator.

of that and a solution to solving and making a person whole.

It was in college where I began to not only study myself, but my environmental community, and didn't want to give back.

This altruism type thing, kind of like, you know, has always hovered over me after century.

Since then.

So, I was fortunate to have Doris Buffett bless us.

Now, I will say that the University of Rochester is actually, also teaching classes, and these same facilities.

Well, and they do a lot of fundraising and get support.

so to tap in Pell have been reinstituted, in New York State now.

So there is tax dollars going to that.

But I always say to the naysayers that it's, it seems, you know, feasible to pay the $5,000 now that it that it takes for a college education to have some money to become more equipped so they, upon every return, can be more successful as opposed to the 60 700,000 that we're paying right now.

so we pay upwards of $3.2 billion a year on a Department of Corrections.

So what better way to kind of offset that, get people educated to come out to be taxpayers.

Now, I'm a proud, owner of a of a beautiful home, brand new truck.

I pay taxes and I contribute and my community all because of that educational experience.

So that's one policy lever that's been debated for years.

If you look at the communities, not Cage's bills, three of them.

Let's talk about these here.

and again, it's under this headline of communities Not cages.

The first one, the second look act.

The second is the Marvin Mayfield Act, and the third is the earned time act number one, the second look act.

Thomas care.

You want to tell us what it is and how it works?

Yeah.

So second look act is people who have been sentenced basically on those two and three strike laws, those very archaic, draconian sentencing structures.

Back off of the criminal justice, I mean, the 94 crime bill in 1994 and then Governor Pataki's hard, stance on on crime, the sentencing structures are outdated.

We are actually behind.

And I just want to plug just right quick states like Oklahoma and Alabama when it comes to sentencing structure.

So Oklahoma and Alabama of all places.

And I love Alabama.

Right.

Roll tide.

But I can't believe those traditionally conservative red states are much more better than us right now when it comes to sentence reform.

And so they had these bills.

The second look acts DC have these opportunities where people who have been sentenced to 20, 30, 40 years can get competition to judge after they have done ten years just to get relooked at.

We know now that people who since that time we feel different about mental health issues, addiction, survivors of domestic violence, the fact that some people's brain, my brain wasn't even fully developed.

yet we have science that says a person's brain isn't even fully developed until age of 25.

So now we have people sitting in prison for all these years, 40, 50 years, and there's no mechanism to get relooked at to see who they are today.

So now we have a plethora of judges coming out in support.

We have organizations, we have former docs, commissioners who are all saying that we need a mechanism like this where a person can petition a judge to give reasons.

A judge doesn't have to grant it, but at least it gives a person an opportunity to get a chance to review.

Yes.

What's the argument against this?

And who who doesn't like this?

so everybody loves it.

So, new poll, not everybody.

Come on.

Here's the funny thing.

Very institute, one of the most neutral research organizations across new state, just came up with a party, went and interviewed all these people.

74% of New Yorkers agree that we need to have this mechanism.

We also have the chief judge of New York State, Ron Wilson, came out in support.

We also have unions, labor unions, people who are all support saying that we need a mechanism where people can get relooked at.

Judge Frederick Black, who is a US federal judge right now who just released a guy who was, doing five life sentences.

He came to his office and said, you know, this person needs to be looked at.

Look at who they are right now.

Right?

And so he says, there needs to be a system like this on a state level.

So this could pass could could have passed this year.

That's what we're hoping for.

That's what we're hoping for.

So this is why we are talking to our elected officials, trying to let them know that this is what the community wants.

I was just in Fairport yesterday at their rotary talking to them.

And everybody loves having a mechanism, an opportunity like this.

Okay.

I want you to tell me about the Marvin Mayfield act.

Carry anything you want to add on that first one there?

Well, I'm not as optimistic as Thomas says that everybody loves the second look act, but, I would love for everybody to love.

the second looked at it.

Look, act.

I think that people who do not support any, any of these bills don't really understand, what it is that the bills will do and how it will impact our communities.

Right.

These really are, their safety bills.

They do they do create safety by providing mechanisms to make families whole again, to bring people home and become contributing members of the community and society.

And I just want to say carry it.

I mean, we're going to talk about the last two in a second here.

But on all three of these, probably the opponents would say, I'm worried you're going to make our community less safe.

You're going to make it too lenient.

You're going to put people back on the street before they should serve more time.

The argument you're making, I think, is these are not only more, just they're not going to compromise community safety.

Is that correct?

Right.

Absolutely.

And I mean, look, this the reality is we learned from the the 1994 crime bill area, the era that being being tough on crime and being more punitive only creates more crime.

We learned that that's what the statistics tell us.

It's time for us to listen, to read the research, number one, and then listen to the research that being tough on crime is not the answer to solving the problems of crime.

I see we've got a flood of little comments on YouTube.

I got to get to those in a second, but let's get through the other two bills here.

So you know what is being considered.

The Marvin Mayfield Act would eliminate mandatory minimum sentences, allowing judges to consider the individual factors and mitigating circumstances in a case and addressing, what the sponsors say is the outside power of prosecutors to create plea deals.

Yes.

Why on this one?

So 97% of cases, in New York State and in plea deals, because the district attorneys have too much power, they usually force or cause people to not enjoy their fundamental right, to have a right to a trial by making them take a plea.

This eliminates mandatory minimums, gives judges to power.

The most neutral person in a criminal procedure is the judge.

And right now, their hands are tied when it comes to sentencing because 2 or 3 strike laws, because of certain law structures, they have to give people certain time.

Most judges will say if they had the ability to sentence people more fairly, more properly, they would.

So these bills will unlock or untie the judge's hands and sentence people more properly.

And I'll just plug that.

This is also being carried by our Assembly member, the honorable Damon makes.

So, so he actually, carries this and sponsors this, and we gain a lot of momentum looking for support for that as well.

All right.

And the third one is the Earn Time Act.

it would strengthen and expand good time and merit time laws to support rehabilitate the efforts in prisons.

How would this one work?

So I actually want to talk on this one because this one is the.

So this is the one that would change the culture in prison from one that is punitive to one that is rehabilitative.

this is the one that will change the, the culture from what we saw from the corrections officers, and, and how they treated Mr. Brooks and how they murdered Mr. Brooks to one that would, shift that culture to a focus, not on punishment and not on torture, but on rehabilitation, education and addressing any of those systemic, issues that people have experienced prior to coming to prison.

So, it would address the trauma.

It would allow programs like Alternatives to Violence, programs like our Rochester Education Justice Initiative that is led by the U of R, like our our trade programs, one of the things that when we talk to, the business coalitions and the unions, they need people to work.

And this would equip people to come home and to be contributing members of society and of their families and their communities, more importantly, and just quickly incentivizes people to participate in programs productively that helps incarcerated individuals, just makes prison safer.

And I want to highlight this because if I'm incentivized to participate in programing, I will I'm less likely to have these interactions.

I bet misconduct or bad instance with staff.

So this makes prison staff safe.

And then as a consequence, those experiences, those moments that I've had in these programs, those skills, I can come home and put them to use pretty much like what I'm doing right now, pretty much like hundreds of other formerly incarcerated people are doing.

But more importantly, this gives hope to to humans and that's what we have to understand that we need hope.

We need, to be able to give, humans who are incarcerated this type of, step.

That's the earn Time act.

So now you've heard the three big pieces of legislation.

Our guests are going to come back in 6 or 8 months, and they're going to tell us what pastor didn't this year.

That's an invitation.

So we'll talk about how it goes if you're willing to come back.

Yes.

Let me close with a couple of these here.

Jennifer on YouTube says Thomas and Carrie are some of the most selfless and kind humans I've ever met.

We are blessed to have them among us.

And, Jennifer followed by asking, Has Thomas been able to get in contact with the family of the person that you shot all those years ago?

Have you been in touch?

Yes.

They actually reached out to me, had a great conversation.

We're going to I always love I want them to be able to talk about this.

I don't want to talk on their behalf, but I will say, talk about a transformative, moment.

I definitely did, and I've been given forgiveness.

I'm sure that is very powerful for you as well.

Anthony on YouTube didn't have time to really explore your question.

He's got some concern about shelters for men who have been released from incarceration, concerned about questions about neighborhood safety.

You know, Tony, we will address that on a separate program because we should talk about what happens right after incarceration.

Where do you go?

You know, not everybody leaves incarceration, married.

you know, unusual story here, but important conversation to have there.

Tony, thank you for that.

I want to thank, Thomas and Carrie Gant for coming here and joining us telling your story.

And again, do come back later this year.

Let's see where things go with, what you are advocating for at the state level.

Yeah, thank you very much.

And we've got more connections coming up in a moment.

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