From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in the 19th century, when a number of researchers began to focus on the idea of play in children.

And one of the early series, I love This was that play was simply an expression of excess energy in kids.

You know, youth is wasted on the young kids play because they've got more energy, and adult play's not essential.

Well, over time, scientists studied the contribution of play to mental and social development.

But until recently, the idea of play therapy was considered by some to be, you know, maybe a little fringy.

But that is changing both with new research and with more insurance companies willing to cover play therapy.

So you might be wondering what it is.

Well, the pandemic left a lot of parents desperate for some kind of help, some kind of intervention for kids.

Kids who might feel isolated or struggling socially or drifting academically, or maybe just parents who've got questions about development, that maybe red flags that they wonder different things might work well, play therapy is having its moment, and we're going to discuss what it is and how it works with our guests this hour.

Marcy Redding is a play therapist with the counseling center at JFS Rochester.

Welcome.

Thank you for being with us.

Thank you.

And also with us in studio is Lindsey Macaluso, who is a licensed clinical social worker and a registered place, the therapist supervisor.

Lindsay is in private practice and also with Nazareth University.

Welcome.

Thanks for being with us.

Thanks for having me.

And on the line with us is Lauren Stewart, who is a parent going to be sharing some of her story today.

Hello, Lauren.

Hello there.

How is everyone doing?

Great.

Great to have you.

Thank you for making time with us.

Listeners, you got questions, comments?

There's a lot of ways to do that.

You can join the chat on YouTube if you're watching on the news.

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Good afternoon.

If you are listening, on your terrestrial radio and you want to make a phone call here, you can call us at eight, four, 4295 talk.

It's 844295825526368 for call from Rochester 2639994.

Email the program connections@z.org.

Marcy, how long have you been a play therapist?

Oh, gosh.

So I've been, focusing on play therapy since about 2016.

And I've had my, RPT since, it'll be about three years or so since I've had my registered play therapist.

Okay.

Beautification.

But doing this work for the better part of a decade now.

Yeah.

Okay.

Lindsay, how long have you been involved with play therapy?

About the same.

Over a little over a decade.

Okay, so one thing that stands out to me as someone who until recently hadn't really engaged with the term art, and I'm trying to understand what it is.

Do you go to school for.

There's other people out there who say, when I grow up, I want to be a play therapist?

Or do you discover that this exists while you are in school for something else?

And then you said, this is a great career for me.

How did it happen for you?

So, I would say that that's pretty much like exactly how it happened for me.

I knew that I wanted to be a therapist.

I knew that I wanted to, go into something with psychology.

You go, and you get your bachelor's degree in psychology, and then you go into your masters.

And for me, I didn't think I wanted to work with kids, and I thought I wanted to do, like, cognitive behavioral therapy and, exposure therapy, phobias, all of that sort of also interesting stuff.

And I just had the internship.

Opportunity at my school to work, at the clinic on campus.

And it was run by the, president of the, Association for Play Therapy.

And the previous year, she had retired the year that I started.

But I gave it a try and I was like, oh, wait, this is actually what I think I meant to do.

There's just something about going into a player with kids that like when you give them the opportunity to just go and do and work on what they want to work on, it just feels really magical.

That's just how I like to describe it.

Before that experience, how much did you know about play therapy?

None.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely none.

I mean, I knew it was there just because when I had, like, interview to get into the master's program, because that school I went to in particular, I was able to do an educational specialist degree in play therapy.

So after my masters, I did that as well.

So I knew it was there.

I knew it was something that we had on campus and it was around.

And so the community also knew about it, which was big.

But me personally, I had no idea about play therapy.

Lindsay, what was your path to understanding play therapy and choosing a career in it?

Pretty similar.

And when I was going to my masters, and as with the university, I took a Foundations of Play therapy course with Doctor Steve demand and I. I fell in love with play therapy, ended up doing an internship there and really never turned back.

Loaded a suitcase with toys and took it to another internship that I was doing and brought play therapy to there as well.

So it is.

I didn't know about it until 2013, but I've been doing it ever since.

So, in a moment we're going to ask Lauren for her experience.

But briefly here, I'm going to ask both of our guests in studio to describe a little bit about what you do.

And I want to start by asking you, Lindsay, what how do you identify a child?

I was going to say, you know what?

What kind of a child?

What kind of scenario would lead you to, say, play therapy might work here?

So for me, play therapy really could benefit any child.

And but the ages for child centered play therapy, which is the model that I typically follow, is usually 3 to 10 years old.

And I specialize in children that have experienced wounds, hurts, adverse childhood experiences.

So any child in that age range 3 to 10 years old that has had any kind of traumatic experience or loss, I'm typically going to start with play therapy.

Okay, Marci, same question.

Yeah.

I would say that, really, I completely agree with Lindsay.

I mean, I usually say that any child can benefit from play therapy, especially because, I practice child centered play therapy as well.

And with that, the child gets to come into the playroom and work on what they want to work on.

So it's a completely nondestructive approach.

So I don't come in.

We don't come in with worksheets and activities and saying, sit down and let's talk about your feelings and that sort of thing.

They just get to come in and explore the playroom and do what they want.

And so, you know, kids with anxiety, kids who, are maybe going through family relationship issues, divorce, all sorts of different things.

But just generally speaking, I do believe that any and all kid could benefit from play therapy.

Lauren Stuart, can you tell us a little bit about your family story?

Absolutely.

You know, I can start by saying that, I have two kids that have been through some trauma.

And, you know, when we started, I think for every parent, when you're facing that reality that, you know, you have to look into some sort of therapy for your children.

I hope every parent comes across the suggestion of play therapy because, I absolutely agree, you know, that every child could benefit, you know, from this kind of therapy.

You know, I'm a person myself who started therapy young, child is an alcoholic and an enabler.

So, you know, for me, my first therapy was a wonderful lady who had a dolphin puppet.

And, you know, she made therapy easy.

And, you know, it wasn't scary or different.

You know, and that's what I can see in my children is that, you know, they're not only excited to go see, Marcy, you know, they run down the hallway to see her.

And I can see it helping.

And it's also just such a judgment free zone.

It's such a safe place.

And, you know, they can heal by doing things that are, you know, directly centered to children.

They're six and eight, and, you know, my youngest will come out with half of his arm covered in paint, and, you know, one's out to show me his arm covered in paint and the big smile on his face, you know, it's it's just such a comfort to me as a parent to know that they have this space and this person that, just shows them, you know, a judgment free, safe place, a caring place.

And, you know, on the parental side, it works.

You know, we've been doing this for, you know, a year and a half with Marcy, and I can say that both of my kiddos are in such a better place than they were when we started.

You know, they can come to me with vocabulary that they didn't have before, and express how they're feeling, express what they need.

And it's just from, you know, organic play.

Because, you know, Marcy was saying, that, you know, talk therapy can be scary.

And I agree, I think with little kids, you're not going to get very much, you know, doing worksheets or trying to pull, information that way.

But the way these therapists can, you know, just watch them watch their body language, watch the way that they play and, you know, form, you know, a healing.

And the word is escaping me.

You know, routine or schedule for them, something like that.

You know, it's it's just wonderful as a parent to know that it's it works for the kids and they're safe and, you know, happy to go every week.

So let me ask both of our guests then a little bit about what they are trying to achieve with it.

Because as much as we can focus on the word play, it is a form of therapy.

And there are, you know, obviously different goals and intentions with different kids, with different life scenarios.

But Marcy, I'll start with you and you can speak more generally here.

But how do you describe what you do is that you're trying to accomplish with play therapy?

So as a child center play therapist, my role is to be in the space with the child but not leave the child.

My job is to help them to, get words for their emotions, to help them understand self-regulate and frustration tolerance, help to build their confidence, help them to have more independent, problem solving skills and I still I'm just there to kind of facilitate that as it organically happens.

I'm not going to like directly say, well, how does this make you feel?

You know, I'm going to reflect back to them.

You're feeling happy.

You're really proud of what you just did.

You know, I'm not going to assume I'm going off of what their expression is and what they're telling me and what sort of like, play themes and stuff I see with them.

How much restraint do you have to have to not push too hard and to allow things to develop with kids?

Ooh.

I would say you'd have to have a lot of patience.

And that's because, like, I'm pretty easygoing in the playroom.

Like, there's not too much restraint that I really need to have because they are told that in here you get to decide.

In here, you get to decide what we do, and limits are only set.

Rules are only put into place when necessary for safety of the child.

I think the restraint I'm thinking of is not pushing too hard to say.

So tell me what that means.

Tell me, why did you say that?

Well, how did or are there moments where you do need to kind of open that door?

So you would mostly do those in a way where you would need it in order to, like continue the play.

So I'm not going to ask them like, oh, well, what does this mean?

Or I wonder why you did that.

I just let it happen.

And it's my job to take what I'm observing and then apply it to different play themes that we see, and then what that could mean, what underlying behaviors or needs is the child trying to express?

So for children who have experienced different types of trauma, are there different actions that they will take during play that will be different signals?

Oh, it could be.

I mean you could see lots of family relation type of type of play.

You could see them, pick out some sort of item that could be like what they feel is themselves in the play.

You could see them, reenact things, traumatic experiences and all of that is to help take away the, the, the power in the hold that some of that trauma could have on them.

The repetitive play, working through it, playing through it.

Yeah.

Part of why I'm probing here is because probably any parent listening, or anyone who works with kids, knows that there are times where kids open up and tell you a lot, and there are times where you go like, so how's your day to day good.

Okay, great.

How was your weekend?

Good.

Like that's all we got.

We got nothing we got.

And they're like, well, how am I going to get this kid to open up?

Yep.

And is something wrong?

Is something bothering them?

Is something are they struggling with something that's happened within the family, or are they struggling with something that's happened in their social circle?

They're struggling with isolation.

But you're right, it's hard to say to a seven year old like, so tell me, like, what's the psychological roots of this dude?

Like, what's going on here?

I mean, like, that's just and it can be very frustrating for parents.

So I'm just trying to make sure I understand on both of you.

I'm going to I'm asking Lindsay the same question about, but like, how do you work through getting some of the answers that maybe parents need or want or you as a therapist would benefit from, you know, without treating the kid like, you know, they're like a fully formed adult who can have this high level conversation, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and I think part of it too is, having conversations with the parents and really understanding what the kids are going through, especially, just in updates.

I mean, school recently just started.

And so that can affect kids greatly just in terms of possible behavior regression, because they're adapting to a new structure.

There's more separation from parents.

And so keeping updated with, with the parents on where the kid is at, at home and at school is pretty important, too.

Lindsay, I want you to take us through a little bit about how you see the process, and especially for people with hearing play therapy for the first time today, helping them understand how you work.

Yeah.

So as play therapist, we believe and see every day in our work that play is a child's language and toys are their words.

And so I often when I'm first meeting with a parent explaining play therapy, are the students that I teach.

I tell them that if I have been through something difficult as an adult, I can decide to go to therapy, sit on a therapist couch and talk about my experiences, and I might talk about them over and over and over again until I gain insight or the therapist offers something to me, or I understand my feelings better, or I think differently about the situation.

And then I start to heal and feel better.

Children cannot do that, and so play allows them the space.

And I'm after ten years, over ten years doing this, I'm still amazed at how children can come in the playroom and show us their experiences, show us what's on their heart and on their minds through play.

And we see this happen over the course of sessions.

And we we start to especially children that have been through difficult experiences.

We will see those experiences unfold symbolically in their play, and we will see their affect show up or their feelings show up in the play, and then we're trained to respond in a very specific way.

So while it's non directive and the child leads the way, we were very directive in the way we respond.

We don't ask questions and we don't tell them what to do, but we are specific in the way we respond.

Can you in general obviously you're not naming names of client, but can you kind of paint a scenario or maybe the kind of moment that that kind of training that you have really comes into play?

So as far as you know, I think children there's it's it's hard to pick one moment.

Right.

So when children are showing up in their room and they're I'll just describe a fictional.

Sure child.

Yeah, yeah.

That's maybe they're playing in the dollhouse and they're playing out a scene within a family where then a, we'll say dinosaur T-Rex shows up in the house and start stomping around and destroying the house and the child figures in the house hide, and then the T-Rex goes away, and then they can come back out.

And this is played out over and over and over again from session to session to session.

That and if I'm starting to see that, I'm taking the child in account what I know about their experiences.

If I know what's happened to them outside of the playroom, and then I'm responding to that play.

So it's it's also about externalizing, right?

Meaning that I'm not saying little Johnny, you know, I see this is happening to you.

I'm saying this is happening to the figure in the in the dollhouse.

So I see you're scared and hiding the T-Rex is so scary.

And so we're reflecting on the feelings of you're not saying like, so who does the T-Rex represent in your life right now?

It's like, hey, like, I'll role play here.

Like, so I'm behind.

Like, so are you always scared?

And you let them kind of verbalize.

So we wouldn't even ask questions.

We would say the the little boy is so scared.

Oh, I see he's hiding under the bed.

That T-Rex is so loud.

Oh, no.

And that's where we're going to respond in that way, after a child has has showed us that through their play over the course of time.

And so we know how to respond because they they show us what they need.

Just like if as an adult, I'm saying, hey, and I'm this is also fictional, but I'm living with somebody that's scary.

I could sit and the couch and talk about that to a therapist, but a kid can.

Yeah.

And so we see that in the play.

I imagine, though, a lot of sessions you don't have one big obvious moment.

Right.

It's probably a lot of trust building.

You know kids just and sometimes.

Is it possible sometimes play is just play.

It's not, you know reflective of anything sort of deeper or traumatic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sometimes we see children come in, I see children come in and their play is really typical.

And certainly I see them over the course of, of many sessions.

And then I go back to the parent and we collaboratively understand what's going on outside of the session that brought the child here, because inside the sessions we're seeing really typical play, which is not like what I just described.

What about.

Yeah I mean it is a lot of the play.

Pretty typical.

And do you find yourself thinking like okay we're not going to have like a one big breakthrough moment every session here.

Yeah.

For the most part you're not going to just see like a big Or the kid's not going to just like get something or.

Yeah, they're just going through play.

And that's just because they're, you know, just subconscious expressing whatever's going on with them, whatever stressors that they're experiencing, whatever they want to be talking about, that's what they do in play.

And it's not always something that, you know, that as a play therapist, we would see when we're like, oh, we're concerned or oh, we know exactly what this means, but we can look at the play themes so we could see that, you know, that is their power and control involved is their safety.

Is it about, danger or aggression?

Is it nurturing?

Is it self nurturing?

All of these different things?

That's what we're mostly looking at.

Are the overall themes of the play.

And so I'm want to know from Lauren Stewart, you said what's happening with Marcy is working, that you feel very comfortable saying that your kids have really benefited from this.

What do you see that makes you feel that way?

You know, for both of my kids, there are a lot less of those shut down moments.

A lot less anger, a lot more empathy.

And, you know, like they said, it's not it wasn't after two sessions and they were, you know, we were seeing results, but, you know, they stuck with it.

Marcy stuck with them.

And, you know, I can see that in all those little ways.

They are they are healing.

And just being able to express day to day, how they're feeling.

If something happened, you know, at school, they can come and they have the vocabulary now and, you know, freedom to share that.

So I'm looking at some of the data.

And, you know, this is according to the Association for Play Therapy, which is a real thing.

Again, I say that just because play therapy is a new concept to me.

But they look at over 100 different play therapy outcome studies, finding that the overall treatment effect ranges from moderate to high positive effects, which remain consistent across gender, age and presenting issues.

And, Do you have a question about whether insurance covers this?

I mean, does insurance cover this more often?

Lindsey.

Yeah, I mean, I, I play therapy is psychotherapy for children.

And so insurance covers it is that wasn't always the case or is that changing?

I think insurance is changing in general about covering more more therapy.

The insurance is covering more well in this country.

Are we sure.

Well, insurance is covering more if you have the right credentials.

Okay, okay.

But insurance is coming to see over time has come to see the value in this kind of therapy as something that isn't fringy.

That does have actual benefits that can be studied.

Fair, correct.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah, I would say that there is enough, there's enough studies and data and things now to like to back it up that shows that this really works and that it can have long term benefits.

And so you don't have to necessarily take like a cognitive behavioral therapy route or something more adult like with a child that this works for kids and it is the most developmentally appropriate.

And the data is there to back it up.

I also have a couple of questions from listeners about, how to observe play in their own kids and if if our therapist want to weigh in on that in our second half hour, we'll talk about that coming up.

But I also want to ask Lauren Stuart if you have a plan going forward now.

I mean, do you feel like you're in a rhythm with play therapy?

I guess it's supposed to be age 3 to 10.

You've got kids who are six and eight, you know, so eventually they may quote unquote, age out.

So what's the plan for you?

The plan right now is, you know, we are comfortable.

They are comfortable.

And, this is working for everybody.

So for now, we're going to stay where we are.

You know, my older one got two years before I would have to, you know, think about him aging out and finding something, you know, more age appropriate.

But like I said, we have seen I have seen healing.

I've seen growth.

And, until we have to leave the practice, we're going to stay right where we are.

Well, here's a couple notes from Joel who says play is how children learn sex should host a day of films concerning play at the little.

And he suggests chasing childhood territory of play the land, power of play, nature, play, play again, etc.

A lot of films on this.

Joel I did not know about this, but he says, can you have the guest talk more about the benefits of self-directed play, unstructured, voluntary activities where children can explore and make their own choices?

It seems as if we need to discuss the power of play to understand play therapy.

Lindsay, you want to hit that one?

Yes, yes.

Thank you for that question.

So one of the opening statements we do in child centered play therapy is in here.

You can play with the toys in many of the ways you'd like.

And you can say anything you'd like.

And we have the playroom set up in a way where there are no electronics.

No.

Well, he's my playroom, doesn't have any board games.

Some child play that center play therapist do, and children can come in and they have the opportunity to try on different ways of being so they can, like I talked about earlier, go in the dollhouse, the kitchen set.

We have more aggressive toys like handcuffs and swords and knives and dress up costumes.

Not real knives.

No, no fake fake.

Nice.

I understood that, but.

And and children.

Really?

Are encouraged in that space to explore and and through that, they end up expressing themselves.

They end up problem solving.

They end up being spontaneous and creative and so, I don't know, I mean, I think in the current culture that we live in in 2025, in schools and, and in communities, maybe we have less opportunity for that.

And so the playroom is a really special place.

Marcy, you want to add to them?

Yeah.

So I think that, you know, when kids come into the playroom, they just jump.

They they gravitate to something that just like speaks to them.

And so from the self-directed for them, it's just.

All right, I need some sensory input.

So I'm going to play with the sand or I'm going to use these blocks and I'm going to build like the strongest fort that I can.

And they just start to create their worlds.

And one of the things that we do is we don't make assumptions about what we're seeing.

So we don't like if they pick up, say they're playing with pretend food and they pick up an apple, we're not going to say you chose that apple.

We'll say you picked that up.

We won't label things because until the child has labeled it, we don't decide for them what it is.

So it's their world.

It's they're like in the room.

It should be a blank slate.

It might not even be an apple in their mind.

It's not.

No no no.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Like they will tell us.

And if we get it wrong because we've made our own assumptions just as adults, which sometimes happens, they'll correct us.

So yeah.

Lauren, has this affected how you evaluate your own kids play at home?

You know, it does.

It kind of opened my mind a lot to the like, the subtle nuances, the ways that, you know, they speak to each other and they interact with each other can kind of, you know, show me little things that maybe I haven't picked up on that bothered them that day.

Or, you know, something, even something that I, you know, need to express to Marcy before the next session.

So it it definitely does, you know, kind of open your mind as a parent to, everything that is really going on when kids play.

Well, after we take our only break, we've got a couple of questions on email that I think are pretty pertinent.

And parents comments, questions you can continue to send them the connections to succeed at org if you like.

We're talking to Marcy Redding and Lindsay Macaluso, who are the experts in the room talking about play therapy, what it means to be a play therapist, the kind of work that can affect kids, that can really help kids, especially kids aged 3 to 10 who might be, working through a number of issues in their own lives.

Lauren Stuart on the phone with us, who is a parent whose kids have been going to see Marcy and apparently having not only a great time, but but great results.

So, we'll come right back and we'll take some of your questions on the other side of this.

Only break.

I'm having Dawson Wednesday on the next connections.

It's time for if all of Rochester read the same book, the Rochester Read series, and this year's edition is a book called Soil The Story of a Black Mother's Garden.

Author Camille Dungy joins us on connections.

In our second hour, we sit down with Pastor Colin Prichard to talk about how to recognize the humanity in our neighbors, in people we disagree with at a time when so many are hurting.

Talk with you Wednesday.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Kerry Ola Center, proud supporter of connections with Evan Dawson, believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one.

Mary Kerry ola.org.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Let me walk through some questions here.

Jen emailed to ask about her concern when her child is consistently choosing toy guns.

She doesn't feel all that comfortable with it and wants to know what the therapist think about that night.

I was telling our guest during the break, you know they can't perfectly diagnose every child, every moment, every choice, having never met them.

But some of these questions, I think are more general or universal.

So and Jen's question is probably pretty common.

So if you've got a kid who loves playing with guns, toy guns, for her she's wondering, is that an issue or something to be worried about?

Lindsay, I'll start with you.

Thanks for that question.

It's a question I get a lot from parents.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And and I think, like you said, I'm speaking from a play therapist perspective and somebody that understands child development as well.

I think that children are often trying to have moments where they can feel powerful and sometimes having options to play with what in the playroom, we call more aggressive toys can give them a safe outlet to, like I said, try on ways of being, showing their power and control.

Also, I always encourage parents to think of the context.

So what?

What draws your child to the guns?

What kinds of things are they?

Are they, pretending to be when they're using the guns?

How are they using the play gun?

So I think it's more about, understanding what's around that play.

But I think in, in my play room, I do have toy guns.

And because I want to give children the opportunity to fight back against a bad person with a gun, right.

If there's no option for that type of, toy in the playroom, then there's no option for that type of moment.

And again, going back to the theme of the more toys the children have the option of playing with, the more language they have through their their play.

Yes.

Okay.

So also that child should have the opportunity to play with a doll and a kitchen set.

So we have that range of more regressive or nurturing toys and then aggressive toys.

Marcy, you get questions about toy guns.

Oh yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

What do you tell people?

I let them know that.

I mean, kids need to express these things, and they're using guns, you know, usually as a way of protection or of safety or control or power.

And just because they're picking up a gun doesn't mean that they are wanting to harm someone, you know, and to not look at it at the value of this is a weapon that they are wanting to do something dangerous with.

It's more how is it making them feel in the playroom and how they're using it.

And it's usually in ways that end up making them more confident.

Just more just oh, it's it's interesting because they will, like, protect us sometimes in the playroom.

That's what they'll be using the guns for.

And it's also our job to, you know, include safety.

So if, I have Nerf darts in my playroom, some people will just have, just toy guns that don't have, like, Nerf darts.

And I just remind them, you know, I am not for shooting, but you can choose to shoot the punching bag, or you can choose the pillow so they're still able to express what they need to and get out what they need to.

But they're doing in a way that is safe, and it's providing them with other solutions.

Okay.

Amanda follows that up.

Listening to the conversation says, what would be oh, let me pull this back up.

What would be different if they just let the kids have swords?

Marcy, like, play swords instead of play guns?

Oh, we have yeah, we have swords.

You have both options.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I I've got a lot of swords in my player.

I the, the context of a man is question.

Makes me wonder if what she's saying is she's more comfortable in saying, all right, if my kids want to do aggressive play, I'll let them play swords.

I don't want them to use play guns.

You know, that's just her comfort level.

What would you say to that?

I think that by not allowing the child to have the swords or the guns in the playroom is kind of doing them a disservice because they need the opportunity to use what they need to express what they want to express.

And again, it's just about making sure that they feel the empowerment, they feel the confidence, and they're getting what they need.

But we also have a trusting relationship with them.

And yeah, I, I don't know, I feel like they have to be there like you couldn't, you could not have them in in the playroom or play space.

Okay.

You agree with that?

I do.

I wonder if if this parent is talking about at home.

Yeah I think she is.

And so and so I would say I would say that as, as parents you have the right to choose what's in your home.

It's the parents writing are probably really wanting to offer their children the toys that's going that are going to allow them to express themselves.

And so, yeah, if you're more comfortable with a toy sword versus a toy gun, I would say go with the toy sword, because one of the things we don't want is to have parents be dysregulated in their child's play.

So if a child's say they're offering, they hear this, this show, and then they go out and buy a Nerf gun, but then they're not comfortable with it on the inside, the child will pick up on that, and then it will become a point of tension between the parent and child.

And so I really encourage parents to do what they feel most comfortable with kids.

My favorite thing to have in the playroom, as far as sports go, is a pool noodle cut in half.

That makes two very good swords.

That's pretty good.

I won't even tell you what I would do now.

I'll just say who cares?

I've embarrassed myself enough on this program over the years, when my now 13 was like a Julia Williams.

Like, yeah, when my now 13 year old was younger, when if he wanted to use any toy guns.

The term I made him use was blasters.

I said, guns are not toys, and I don't want you to think of guns as toys in your life, because guns can really hurt people.

So blasters?

We allowed guns?

Not sometimes.

He rolled his eyes at me.

That was the line that I set.

So maybe I'm regulating too much, but that's what I know.

I think that that if you are I mean, if you're comfortable with that, that's the right thing to do.

Oh, boy.

Well, that's very nice of you to thank you.

Let me grab a phone call from a Sarah in Rochester.

Hi, Sarah.

Go ahead.

Hi, Erin.

Thanks for.

Thanks for taking my call.

I am the operations manager for a local cooperative preschool, and I'm always looking for ways to connect my parents to the services that are available in the community.

And what would be the best way for both my teachers or myself or our families to get connected to play therapy?

This does require like a doctor's referral.

Can you just, you know, call and be like, hey, I'd like an appointment.

How does that work?

Great question.

Go ahead.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

So I would say that the easiest way, at least if you were interested in coming through our clinic, Jewish Family Services, you can go to JFS, rochester.org, and we have the counseling centers page there.

You can request a, 15 minute consultation so that you can, you know, make sure it's a good fit.

And you can also check out about all of the other programs and things that we have there.

Okay.

Anything you want to add, Lindsey?

Yeah.

I mean, I had Nazareth University.

We have, a play therapy center.

I will say that we need more play therapists in our community.

We're we're about at capacity and Nazareth, but I'm also, connect with the tree of Hope counseling, which has a few play therapist, and I refer to JFS as well.

So, there's a there's a handful of, of play therapy providers in our community.

Did you have any issue, Lauren Stewart finding, what you needed for your kids when you were first learning about this?

And I guess I should back up and ask you how you learned about this.

You know, my mother and I did a little bit of hunting, and, we came across it, on the internet, and it was, I can say from my experience, not hard, you know, very, very easy to do the consultation, get the boys seen.

You know, once we figured out it was going to be an excellent fit, you know, everything just kind of fell into place.

So for meand it was not not easy to find.

You know, when we were looking for therapy, we knew we wanted to do play therapy.

And, yeah, it was pretty easy to find the right direction and get everything set up.

Any issue with cost or without or with insurance or anything like that?

You know, I'm someone who has switched insurance types about, I think three times.

And every single time they have worked with me.

You know, when I lost insurance for a little while, they kept seeing the boys, and we figured it out.

And I'm currently, on Medicaid, and I've, had no issues, you know, continuing services.

And with that.

So.

Good.

I'm glad to hear that.

Yeah, really glad to hear that.

Well, let's see if that answers.

Sarah.

Does that answer your question?

It does.

Thank you so much.

Yeah.

Thank you for the phone call.

So I mean, a lot of kind of general questions about these kind of services.

But you just heard Lindsay Macaluso who not only is in private practice, but also with Nazareth University saying you're kind of at capacity.

So what what would chances are there not enough people going into this field?

Is there not enough reimbursement and support?

I mean, I hate to say it, but this conversation makes me think a little bit about, early intervention and those kind of services that historically have had real trouble getting the support needed for the amount of the population that needs those services in the state.

So where are we going next with this?

I think there's not enough resources and support at Nazareth University, where, we have classes and there's a lot of student interest, and we're training master's level students to go out into the community and do play therapy.

And I can think of a handful of those students that are really excited to practice play therapy.

But there's so many there's so few agencies and organizations in Rochester that offer play therapy.

And so I think it's not so much about the people.

It's more about the agencies and organizations that aren't offering it.

Okay.

What would you want to add their mercy?

Yeah, I would say that in terms of like what agencies and stuff need, like you have to be able to furnish a playroom and you just can't go out and collect a whole bunch of toys.

Like we say that you need to be selective and not collective of your toys.

And so that can be, kind of like a speed bump in the way of agencies and places getting funding or what they need to to start a playroom or to hire a play therapist if someone wanted to do this kind of work.

I mean, you're working with them at NES and they're worried about finding a career and keeping a career in.

And is that a realistic concern right now?

They're people are going out and doing therapy at a variety of places.

But if you want to specialize in play therapy, I think there are only a few places right now in Rochester that you can go Jewish Family Services being one of them, and and practice play therapy.

And so I think alongside with the playroom, it also requires a certain level of ongoing training and supervision.

We both have our registered play therapy certification and that that takes some time, which requires supervision.

And also it's it's can be a slow process for children.

And I think some organizations are really pressured to get quick outcomes and results in child centered play therapy, especially for children that have complex trauma or have a lot of presenting needs, can take years.

And I don't think that's unrealistic.

I think as humans, you know, we should give we should give children the opportunity to heal and take the time that they need.

But I think there's pressure in organizations and institutions to have quick results.

And so oftentimes they lean towards models that are very targeted.

Well, right now, Marty, are you happy with this career that you've chosen for yourself or its chosen you?

Oh yeah.

Yeah, I get to play every day.

I mean yeah, it's wonderful.

I get covered in paint and I get to be invited into child's world and have fun and I don't.

Oh yeah, I don't think I could do anything different.

Well, I mean, I guess over time, we'll see how much more support will come for this.

And maybe related to that, Chuck emails to ask, please ask your guests if children with Medicaid coverage have access to play therapy.

I think we just covered that.

I think I think Lauren Stuart said, that's your family right now, Lauren, and everything's going well.

That that is us.

And we are continuing with, treatment and everything's going smoothly.

So yes, that is accepted and everything's good with that.

Yeah.

So, Chuck, first of all, the answer is yes.

And Lauren's experience is not only is it yes, it's covered, but yes, it was a smooth situation.

I mean, there were not roadblocks.

Her kids are getting this therapy right now.

The second question he has is, can you talk about research on the effectiveness of the therapy for children of different cultures?

So is there research on that?

Lindsey.

Yes.

Yeah, there is research on that.

Play therapy, like I said, play as children's language despite culture.

And so I think we, we take culture into consideration related to the, the toys we have in the playroom that there should be, diverse toys in the playroom.

But play is is child's language across cultures.

And, and I work with children that don't verbally communicate at all during the play.

So I could work with a child that doesn't speak English, will say and still treat them through play without communicating, without having them.

So that's that's a I think it's a really powerful model.

Anything to add, Marty?

No, I think no, I think she said it really well nailed it.

Okay.

So I hope that answers your questions there.

Rick wants to know if there are themes of play that parents should be looking for in their kids at home that are red flags, that something is wrong.

So again, this is one of those general questions.

But, Lindsay Macaluso, do you want to start with this?

Wants to know, are there themes of play that parents should be concerned about?

That's a tough question.

I think my my initial reaction is, is no, because parents, we we have gone through extensive training to become play therapists.

And so there's a lot of nuances that that come from themes.

And we're looking at themes across many, many sessions.

And so I would say I would encourage parents that are listening to just get on the floor and play with your children and try not to worry too much about about what's what's showing up in the play.

I, I will see if they're the only thing.

The only thing I want to add to that is if children are using language that's beyond their developmental stage, or having play reenactments of behaviors that are beyond their developmental stage that are concerning, I would say that would be the one thing that I would encourage parents to reach out to a play therapist about.

Okay.

Marcy ready?

Yeah.

I would say the same thing, that it pretty much would be the things that make you kind of stop and pause and be like, wait, how do you know that?

Or where did you learn that from?

Because you know that your 5 or 6 year old shouldn't have been exposed there certain things.

That's when I would be concerned.

But for the most part, in terms of just regular play themes, even if it involves aggression, there's something behind it.

It's not, you know.

Yeah.

A follow up question is what if a lot of play themes center on death, Marcy.

Well, I mean, death can just be the fact that it's, you know, something that they are trying to work through.

If it's something that they've experienced recently, it could be them processing the loss of something and through the repetitive play of it, you know, especially if the parents are concerned that they're seeing lots of death play.

It's them processing it.

It's them working through it.

It's them learning to cope and understand the idea of death and making it feel less scary.

And it's just done it in a kid way that to an adult it might be be like, oh, why is my, why is my child constantly burying these things?

Understand?

Or why are they killing everything around that?

But yeah, and it doesn't it doesn't raise red flags.

Okay.

Same.

Yeah I would agree.

And maybe if that the child hasn't experienced any loss, maybe they're thinking about it.

And so they don't necessarily have the words to talk about it.

But they are able to play about it.

Yeah I it's a good question I think but you know, death is part of life and kids will have questions about death, right?

I remember when a friend's four year old boy became was asking remarkably deep questions at dinner was like, whoa.

But, you know, the idea was just sort of unlocked in her brain.

And she wanted to think, I know about death, and it seems heavy, but it's part of life.

So maybe not as as our therapist experts in studio have said, Rick, it's not automatically a red flag.

I mean, again, the nuance of any play an interaction is going to maybe determine a little bit more here.

But generally speaking, no, I mean, death is part of life.

Last question before we get ready to wrap up here was Alicia wanted to know how should they set up play rooms at home?

So that's a good question.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know, Lauren Stuart, if you change anything with with your own play spaces since your kids started going to play therapy, you know, ironically enough, I have not changed anything.

I've just kind of taken Marcy's advice, and, you know, a page out of her book and let them, you know, they're old enough.

Now, if they want to move something they don't like or something is, it's kind of their playroom.

You know, they kind of get told what to do enough during their day and in their daily lives.

So it's their playroom.

It's their toys, you know, they are responsible for them and they take good care of them.

I think knowing that, you know, that, it's kind of on them to, do whatever they'd like with their playroom.

Well, setting up a playroom.

All right, Marcy, what do you what would you say to parents who are like, okay, I mean, what should I do?

I would say, you really want to have, like, open ended toys?

You want to have toys that let kids explore and play in all sorts of different ways, ones that they can get replay value out of.

So things like, magnet tiles are great because you can, you can create anything you want with magnet tiles.

Sand is good because there's just something so sensory about it that just can be soothing.

It can be calming.

But of course, it's what is the parent comfortable with?

If they're not comfortable with sand being in the house, then then don't put it in the house because it's going to create more tension and anxiety.

Yeah, just all sorts of different toys.

I'm trying to think of what would be like the best toys, what I've learned, and I, I tell them I love toys, I buy toys.

Finally, I finally have a child now, so I don't.

I'm not weird.

Now I can go to the toy store and I have a child with me at least.

But but I what I've learned along the way is that children will if it's if it's open ended, children will create what they need.

And so you really don't need a fully stocked playroom.

It's more it's more about the person that's in the room with the child.

And so I really encourage parents to take five minutes, ten minutes and sit down in the room, step into the room and try to take off your teaching hat.

I think as parents were so quick to like, want to teach a lesson or want to ask a question, or want to get more information and see what it feels like to just let your kid lead the way and let them invite you in the play and go with what they want to do and that really is the most important part about play therapy.

We didn't talk a lot about that today, but the relationship is really the most important thing.

The relationship between the therapist and the child and at home, the relationship between the parent or caregiver in the child.

I'm going to close with this, Connie and Massillon says, so happy to hear the show today and play therapy.

I was fortunate to have worked at our local elementary school that provided play therapy for first and second graders who were deemed at risk.

The program was developed by the University of Rochester, who provided ongoing training for us to work with these children.

We worked with children one on one in a playroom that was set up just like your guests are describing.

The child always, always directed his or her play.

Our job was mainly to reflect on the child's play.

The playroom provided a safe environment for the child to express himself or herself, and I can't say enough about the benefits of play therapy and the children who always looked forward to seeing their special friend.

Each week.

Connie.

And in big endorsement there, Lauren Stewart, I want to thank you for sharing your experience.

I think the parental voice here really, really matters because for a lot of listeners, this is a new concept.

Good luck to you and your kids.

Here's to continued success for them and for you.

Thanks for coming on the program today.

Thank you so much for having me.

All right.

Marcy Redding, Lindsay Macaluso, I there may be a waiting list, I don't know, but how how would someone get in touch and try to set up something with you?

Marcy.

Yeah.

So I would recommend going to JFS, Rochester.

Dot org, clicking on our counseling center page and filling out a 15 minute consultation.

That would be the simplest way for parents to do it.

If you're a provider.

We also have a referral link for providers.

So pediatricians or anyone who's listening who can say, oh, I have a patient that could benefit from that gap.

JFS, Rochester, Dot org.

Yes, that's where you'll find Marcy Redding, who is a play therapist with the counseling center of JFS Rochester and Lindsay Macaluso.

Where would you direct folks to places?

Nazar Edu the play therapy center there or tree of Hope counseling either place you can find me.

And if I can't see you or one of the people I know, I will get you out.

Connectedness with somebody in the community.

Tree of Hope counseling.

Yes.

The play center at Nest University.

Yep.

Correct.

Thank you for being here as well.

What a great conversation this hour.

And I noticed one thing.

As a parent myself, no judgment, just a lot of just really good, good information here.

And thanks to Lauren.

Thanks to Lindsay.

Thanks to Marcy.

Thanks to you for listening or watching.

Wherever you're finding us.

We are back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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