It's been proven that animal agriculture plays a huge role in climate change.

So every time we sit down to eat, we have a choice to make.

Today we're talking about eating for the planet.

I'm Jasmin Singer, and this is Environmental Connections Today, we've brought together some thought leaders to shed light on how we can each make better choices.

Starting perhaps with dinnertime.

Joining us today, we have Nate Salpeter, the co-founder of the climate sanctuary Sweet Farm and cultivated meat enthusiast and innovator.

Welcome, Nate.

Hey, it's great to be here.

Also joining me in the studio is Ted Barnett, M.D, also the founder and CEO of Rochester Lifestyle Medicine.

Welcome, Dr. Barnett.

Thank you.

It's great to be here.

Then joining us remotely, we have Dr. Olivia Auclair, a recent Ph.D. graduate from McGill University Welcome, Dr.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for being here.

I'm so excited to chat with you about your recent research.

And also joining us remotely is climate scientist Dr. Jenny Jay, a UCLA professor and creator of Meals for the Planet, which calculates the carbon cost of meals.

Welcome, Dr. Jay, so happy you're here.

Thank you.

It’s great to be here.

Before we chat with our experts, let's ground our conversation in some findings from a report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization titled Livestock's Shadow, released way back in 2006.

This report illuminated the environmental impacts of the global climate livestock sector, pointing to the urgent need for action to mitigate these effects.

According to the report, the livestock sector occupies about 30% of the planet's land surface and is responsible 18% of greenhouse gas emissions measured in CO2 equivalent.

That's more than the entire transportation sector combined, with projections indicating a potential doubling of meat production by 2050.

The report emphasized that the environmental impact per unit of livestock production, it must be cut in half just to avoid exacerbating the current level of environmental damage.

So what's for dinner for those of us trying to repair our planet nearly two decades after Livestock's Long Shadow uncovered these critical issues?

Let's turn to our experts.

I'd like to start off with Dr. Ted Barnett.

Dr. Barnett, you are a board certified doctor in lifestyle medicine, where the focus is on healthy eating choices to combat disease.

But in your work with Rochester Lifestyle Medicine, you've also focused on connecting the health of the people to the health of the planet.

So can you explain how they're connected?

You know, we became vegan back in 1991.

And basically the reason at the time was for environmental reasons.

It was pretty clear to me it was best for the planet because it uses fewer resources, generates a lot fewer greenhouse gases, much less land use, less pollution.

So what wasn't obvious to me at the time was that it was healthier.

As a physician, the most important thing was demonstrating that this was healthy for basically everybody, including our growing family, our son, who hadn't even been born yet.

He's been vegan since before birth.

And, you know, these three kids are now in their thirties.

They're all doing great.

So we did kind of an experiment and our family, like any good parents.

So, Dr. Burnett, when I mention soy, people tend to tell me that either it's unhealthy or that we're tearing down the rainforest to make tofu and soy milk and I should stop eating them.

What are your thoughts on soy?

Well, for the environmental impact of soy, the reason we're tearing up the rainforest is not to feed humans, it's to feed animals.

So that's to me, not really a good argument.

So, you know, the Japanese are the longest lived people in the world consume lots and lots of soy.

And if you look around the planet, people who consume legumes and especially soy do fine.

There's actually evidence that women with breast cancer, their rates of recurrence of breast cancer is reduced if they consume soy.

And there's this whole kind of misconception that there is that there is that soy contains these phytoestrogens, which it does, but that they're somehow dangerous and they're not.

It's been shown that soy is actually quite safe and actually quite beneficial for health.

It frogs really well in my morning tea as well just in case people are wondering what plant milk is the is good it's frothing no offense oat milk.

So Dr. Barnett, do low greenhouse emitting diets tend to lead to any nutritional deficiencies?

In other words, what I'm asking is, are the best foods for the climate completely aligned with the best foods for us?

Or is there a discrepancy there?

No, I don't think so.

I don't think it's a discrepancy.

In fact, you can turn it around.

The plants that are making us sick are also making the planet sick.

is one potential deficiency that people can have, which is vitamin B12, and it's a very easy supplement to take.

I have it in the bathroom.

I take it every morning when, you know, I'm brushing my teeth.

So I have many more questions for you, Ted, but hang tight.

Let's turn to Dr. Auclair.

Dr. Auclair is a research associate at at McGill University, Montreal, where she earned her Ph.D. and works on research into sustainable diets.

As a diet scientist, can you talk more about protein?

How much do humans need?

And how much does the average North American consume now?

Yeah, for sure.

I think that's like one of the biggest topics.

Whenever you tell somebody like, I'm a vegetarian, where are you getting your protein?

Oh, my God, protein.

So basically, it's pretty well known that animal foods typically contain more protein and plant foods.

So there's protein quantity, There's also protein quality.

So there's nine essential amino acids that our body, that we need to get from foods because our bodies can't produce them.

And so animal foods are typically deemed high quality because they contain all nine of these essential amino acids.

Plants, on the other hand, typically are lacking in one or another.

But there's a pretty simple solution to that.

It's eating a variety of different foods and having consuming a balanced diet to get all those essential amino acids.

So how much protein do we need?

The recommended dietary allowance is .8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day.

So for a 150 lb.

individual, for example, that’s 68 kilograms: they need about what is it, 55 grams of protein per day.

Animal products typically need more protein, I would say between maybe 20 and 28 grams of protein for 100 grams of foods.

Plants contain somewhat less protein, but there still seeds contain about 22 grams per 100 grams of food.

So, yeah.

What about athletes?

Can athletes get enough protein from eating plants?

Definitely.

I mean, there's like tons of athletes out there that are vegan or that are consuming plant based diet.

I think it's really just maybe being a little bit more organized and watching your intake of different foods, but consuming a variety of foods and having a balanced diet, I think is key to getting enough protein.

Thank you for that.

I'm going to just bring around a recording of you saying that.

And whenever anyone asks me if I get enough protein and I'm just going to play it.

Thankfully people are asking it less and less.

Everyone knows, Dr. Auclair, about transportation, but people don't seem to be aware of the climate impact of food, in spite of that long ago U.N. report that we were talking about.

So how much of that impact can we eliminate by changing the way we eat?

So in my study, where we did partial replacements, red and processed meat or dairy with plant protein foods in a Canadian self-selected diet.

So we looked at what Canadians were eating, typical diets and we modeled simple partial replacement.

So either 25 or 50% of people's red and processed meat intake or dairy intake with a variety of different plant protein foods.

And what we found is that by making that simple change of reducing our red and processed meat intake by half and replacing those grams with plant protein foods, we found that there were there was a 25% reduction in individuals diet related carbon footprint.

So you can reduce your diet related carbon footprint by 25% just by cutting your red and processed meat intake in half, which I think is something that is probably more feasible for people to do maybe than uphauling their dietary patterns completely or excluding certain foods altogether.

You know we are still living in a society where meat is at the center of the plate.

And so I think what these sort of scenarios and what these findings show is that it's possible make an impact that have co-benefits for your health and also for the planet without having to make these very big changes.

Here we are in Grass Fed Vegan butcher shop in Rochester, New York.

We make deli style vegan meats here in our kitchen.

We sell them right out of a case so people can buy stuff by the pound as much or as little as they want.

We like to jokingly say we're kind of vegan training wheels for people that are kind of vegan and curious, but maybe don't know where to start and are looking to change their diet, even if it's just to do like a Meatless Monday.

Can I get a BLT?

And any animal consumption reduction that we can make obviously has a huge impact on the environment.

Even just having a couple people make that choice to be eaten, even if it's only for a couple of meals a week can help.

There is a lot that goes into kind of replicating Meat's first and foremost taste.

It may not be exactly what at this point.

I remember the meat tasting like, but it's something that approximates what I remember it being.

Then secondly, how does it look?

Does it look kind of like the thing that we're trying to replicate?

And then also the texture.

I didn't quit eating meat because I didn't like it.

You know, there are a lot of other reasons to kind of go vegan beyond that.

So I'm quite happy with the choices that I've made and really, at this point, open up any cooking magazine out there.

And I point to a recipe and I go, I can make that vegan.

So how does the vegan butcher stock his deli case?

I'm about to find out.

I'm excited to see vegan bacon get made, Rob!

So we're going to make two different doughs to kind of mimic the streaking that you see in bacon.

One will be white and one will be red.

We're going to start with the white one.

All right.

Let's do it.

All right.

So we got some of our stuff already measured out for us to make our lives a little bit easier.

Here's just some nutritional yeast and soy protein.

We have a little bit of canola oil, and then we're going to take about two cups of water.

We're going to blend that together real quick just to kind of combine it.

And then we're going to add to it by the wheat gluten.

Used, used like flour for texture and consistency.

Wheat gluten is also a highly concentrated source of protein accounting for 75% of its weight.

Making two loaves representing the fat and the meat of animal based bacon.

Rob has created a worthy opponent to the real thing.

So how does this stack up nutritionally to animal based bacon?

Pretty well, actually.

So this entire recipe, which we do a lot four things of the white dough enough red for two of these pans contains a grand total of half a cup of canola oil.

So a lot less oil per loaf than we have in for a slice than you would for your regular bacon.

And it has all the gluten.

So you've got a lot of protein in there.

That's, you know, what a lot of people are looking for these days, you know, for working out the like.

So from here, we'll throw this into an oven for about an hour and 15 minutes.

We freeze it and then we'll slice it and which case we can kind of cook it a little bit further to crisp it up and make it like the bacon that we all remember.

Thank you so much for having us here at Grass Fed Butcher.

Absolutely, definitely.

Any time.

So shall we eat?

Let's!

Bon appetite.

Mmmmm Grass-Fed Vegan bacon obviously tastes amazing, but how does it stack up to the real thing?

We invited our digital media strategist, David, to a blind taste test to see if he could tell the difference.

All right.

We'll see what it tastes like!

I don't think that's bacon.

It was good.

It just and had kind of a thick taste.

I don't associate with bacon.

It didn’t taste bad it just is missing Kind of like the depth that I associate with bacon.

Okay.

Let's see.

See if I got this.

I was pretty confident that the first one wasn't bacon.

But now I'm not so confident texture wise, either.

One of them could be bacon.

I think I think that one’s the bacon now vegan.

So my first impulse is correct.

Meat based.

All right.

They're both good.

Honestly, I don't know that it matters to me if it's bacon or not.

If you've got that mayo on there, it's great bread.

It's a good sandwich.

I think it holds up.

If I went and bought BLT somewhere and I was given the vegan one, I would never know I wouldn't have any complaint at all.

I'd be perfectly happy.

I feel like I mean, it's such a mess here, but that's okay.

I'm eating bacon.

Dr. Jay, when it comes to animal based products, what is it about them that make them so carbon unfriendly?

Basically they're inherently inefficient because you do need to feed the animal a lot more calories than you get out of it.

And that's just because a lot of the calories the animal eats goes to keeping their body warm or if they get to move around or the calories are lost in the manure.

So there's a lot of inefficiency there.

And it's actually just a small fraction of the calories going into the animal that come out into meat that people eat.

And that's just another issue where when you can patch so many animals in one place, which is what our food system does these days, their waste is just a huge problem.

It's a pollution issue and it can travel offsite and air through fertilizers in water contamination.

And people around these communities are suffering.

They’re disproportionately communities of color are suffering from these impacts of factory farms.

So there are other reasons besides just climate friendly foods to avoid this packing together of animals and growing them.

And even you might call them factory farms or CAFOs, kind of concentrated animal feeding operation.

Right.

Well, thank you, Dr. Jay.

I have more questions for you, but I want to talk to you, Nate Salpeter.

You have a slightly different take on all of this or at least different experience when it comes to this.

Nate is the co-founder and executive director of Sweet Farm, which he describes as the world's first non-profit sanctuary to address the devastating impact that factory farming has on climate change.

From the perspective of animals, plants and the planet need sanctuaries for animals rescued from farming are found all over the country at this point.

But your sanctuary is a little different.

Can you tell us how?

Absolutely.

So when we describe Sweet Farm, it really is comprised of three different areas.

So there's an animal related program.

So we have rescue animals and that's very much your traditional sanctuary approach.

There's an education component, very grass roots, but then we also integrate in plant based agriculture.

So we have a regenerative agriculture program on the site.

We grow all sorts of heirloom varieties of tomatoes and produce and cut flowers and things that really draw individuals into what we're, you know, wanting to educate around what are the issues, why are they important.

But the third program is our technology program.

And I think that's really the core of your question where Sweet Farm truly differentiates itself.

And this is really targeted at supporting budding entrepreneurs and corporates looking to make their transition into areas like plant based proteins.

That could be, it could be proteins produced through precision fermentation, and it could be companies that are actually focused on production of the plants themselves.

So how do we reduce or reduce crop loss during spring frosts or, you know, boost efficiencies in that?

So it's really about making the entire system, regardless of whether it's in the protein space or beyond, much more sustainable in a in a stepwise fashion.

So aside from plant based foods like Impossible burgers, as technology continues to advance, a climate friendly diet might begin to include cultivated meat, which some people know more as lab grown meat.

I think that's not really how it's referred to anymore, but I still think that some people think of it that way.

So can you describe what it is and where we are now?

Can people eat it now?

Yeah.

So I'll start with a little bit of a high level definition.

So cultivated meat is bioligically identical The premise is you take an individual cell and you put it in an environment that convinces that cell to turn to two cells, four cells and grow in the same way that an animal out in the field or in a CAFO, is growing their own muscles.

The difference, though, is you don't have the ethical and the environmental baggage that goes along with that.

So it is meat.

You have a number of companies out there that are producing everything from fish to chicken, It doesn't say anything about it being healthier.

Certainly those aren't the claims.

This is much more about it being approachable and something that the broader population can actually get behind because food is personal, like you said, and trying to create products that enable people to make that inherent impact in their own daily life, in their own daily choices that improve the trajectory that the Earth is an important piece of the puzzle.

And it is just that there are no silver bullets.

But this is this is something that I think is fairly exciting in addition to some of the other technologies that are coming out.

I want to talk to you about precision fermentation, because I know nothing gets you more excited in the world than talking about this.

So what does that mean?

What exactly is it?

Sure.

So fermentation is a process, a technology kind of discovered not invented by humans, but more harnessed by humans for thousands and thousands of years.

I think the first documented case was like 12,000 years ago in China.

But precision fermentation is this premise that you can take yeast the same way that yeast is producing beer and alcohol in a in a brewery.

You could actually have a little conversation with those yeast bacteria and convince them to produce different proteins.

So eggs, for instance, eggs have a hundred different proteins.

We can now produce egg proteins.

In that same way, there's a company called the Every Company that is doing just that.

You see this across a number of areas, a number of products within the food space and out.

So, really exciting, but yeah, just like that you can go down and rather than having a CAFO producing eggs, you can have a very environmentally sustainable business that is actually brewing the exact same egg proteins without the need for that.

Dr. Jay, Just one more question, and it's about something that I love, which is beans.

If we could get people to eat more of them, would we change the world?

Absolutely.

Beans are just the unsung heroes.

Beans and peanuts.

Actually, there's even a study that analyzed the nutrition profile of different foods along with their environmental profile, and figured out the best foods to replace beef based on protein and calorie denisty energy would get.

And basically some combination of peanuts and beans were really the top one.

And many cultures have a legume as a staple food.

You can have beans in all different cultures.

Amazing.

I totally agree.

Thank you for that.

I want to get to just one or two of our emails.

Patrick wrote, The knowledge of the carbon output regarding protein will not change fact that I work out in the cold and construction and the leafy green salad cripples me in the middle of my day because that doesn't make the fire burn.

Who wants take that one?

Because I think I'm actually really grateful for this as well.

I hear this all the time.

And Nate, what do you think?

So the idea that protein must be sourced for meat is an argument that is heard over and over and over.

But it's well established we can get that from beans, legumes, peanuts, broccoli.

Right.

There's like all sorts of protein.

The gorilla and the elephant do not eat meat, right.

So that I think talking point is one that has been built on years and years of sort of societal conditioning.

In a way Hmm.

Yes.

And Dr. Barnett?

Sure.

Listen, when we talk about protein, we're falling into a trap.

People talk protein foods as if somehow they're different from all the other whole plant foods.

If you look at the percentage of calories from protein in whole foods, you'll see that almost all whole foods contain enough protein.

I mean, broccoli is 44% calories from protein.

You know, the plant foods that are higher than we think of as being high, some protein like beans are maybe 20, 25% calories from protein.

We only need about 10% of our calories from protein or maybe less, maybe 8%.

But let's round it up, let's say it's 8%.

And so white potatoes are about 10% calories from protein.

So there's enough protein calories in potatoes so that you're not going to become protein deficient.

What happens is potentially, you know, when someone's standing there asking me, where do I get my protein and they're holding a bag of potato chips and their soda, I'm saying, well, where are you getting your protein?

Because those white potatoes that were 10% calories in protein are now 5% calories from protein because you put all this oil in there and the soda is obviously got no protein.

So if you have an allowace of a couple of thousand, you know, maybe 2,000, 2,500 calories a day, and we're getting it from whole plant foods, we're going to be getting enough protein.

It's not really even an issue.

And yet, Dr. Barnett, surely you hear from people like that person I just mentioned, his emails, surely people come to you all the time and say, absolutely not.

I work in construction or this is not for like men like me or what have you.

So can you just speak to that?

Like, where do you meet these people?

Well, first of all, they should consider watching the movie The Game Changers, which is about the strongest people on the planet, you know, plant based athletes who are living on entirely a plant based diet and, you know, building extraordinary bodies and physiques.

And I run a 5k every morning when I get up before I go to work and I'm doing weightlifting and all that stuff myself, and that's all just on plants.

So, I mean, I try to walk the talk, but I wouldn't eat a green salad if in the middle of running or the middle of a workout.

I mean, I would eat something that's calorically dense.

Yeah.

The thing to remember is lots of whole foods as a percentage of their calories, have a lot of protein and lots of nutrients, but they're not necessarily calorically dense.

The reason we like legumes and grains is because they’re calorically dense.

So we can get a lot of those in at a time and we're not going to become hungry.

So I would say to him, he should find a bean burger or whatever, something that he wants to have for lunch.

I would not eat a small green salad, which although as a percentage of calories has a lot of protein, it's not a lot of calories.

So it's not going to get you through the day.

How's that for food?

For thought.

But it's true.

At least three times a day, we have the opportunity to stand up for the planet.

Every time we sit down to eat.

Until next time.

I'm Jasmin Singer.

Thank you for making today's environmental connections.