>> HELLO EVERYONE, WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY," HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE ECONOMY IS JUST AWESOME, INCREDIBLE NUMBERS CAME IN.

>> BUT THE PEOPLE FEEL DIFFERENTLY, TRUMP'S APPROVAL RATING AT A RECORD LOW, ANALYSIS OF A BAD MONTH FOR THE PRESIDENT.

> >> PLUS -- >> SO FRAGILE, ONE BUDGET CUT WOULD MAKE EVERYTHING FALL APART.

>> HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED BY USAID, THE HORRIFYING IMPACT OF TRUMP'S CUT LAID BARE IN A NEW DOCUMENTARY.

THE DIRECTOR JOIN ME ABOUT WHAT THEY FIND ON THE GROUND IN KENYA.

> >> PLUS FLASHLIGHT, A BOOKER NOMINATED NOVEL.

> >> AND - - >> THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DRUGS IN AMERICA.

>> AS THE ADMINISTRATION TARGETED DRUG CARTELS IN LATIN AMERICA, CAN THEY SOLVE AMERICA'S DRUG CRISIS?

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SHOWEN WARSAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

> >> A JUDGE TOSSING OUT THE CASES AGAINST COMEY AND JAMES RULING THAT THE PROSECUTOR WHO BROUGHT THE CHARGES WAS UNLAWFULLY APPOINTED.

LINDSEY HALLIGAN HAD BEEN APPOINTED BY THE PRESIDENT TO GO AFTER HIS POLITICAL ADVERSARIES.

ANOTHER LOSS AFTER THE ELECTIONS THIS MONTH.

AND THE RELEASE OF THE EPSTEIN FILES LOOMS LARGE, THREATENING TO FRACTURE HIS MAGA BASE.

AND HIS APPROVAL RATING IS AT A RECORD LOW.

LET'S GET INTO THAT WITH STEPHEN COLINSON WHO JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON.

YOU WROTE ABOUT THE PRESIDENT, NOT SO GOOD, ALMOST TERRIBLE FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS HE'S HAD.

WE'LL GET INTO THE ECONOMY AND THE EPSTEIN SITUATION BUT START WITH YESTERDAY.

THE FEDERAL JUDGE DISMISSING THE CASES AGAINST FORMER FBI DIRECTOR JAMES COMEY AND NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL LETITIA JAMES BECAUSE THEY RULE --THE JUDGE RULED THE PROSECUTOR HAD NOT BEEN APPOINTED LEGALLY AND ACCURATELY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE SITUATION, THE PRESIDENT DIRECTED THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO GO OUT AND PROSECUTE, IT'S VINDICATION, AND THE COURTS STEPPED IN.

SHOULD WE VIEW IT POSITIVELY, THE GUARD RAILS ARE HOLDING UP, OR WORRY ABOUT WHAT'S NEXT, THE PEEL OF THE RULING?

>> FOR SUPPORTERS OF THE DEMOCRACY, IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT IS COMING NEXT WITH THE ADMINISTRATION.

THE GUARD RAILS ARE HOLDING UP PARTIALLY.

THE JUDICIARY HAS BEEN THE PREMIUM BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT THAT'S STOOD UP TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE PRESIDENT'S EXPANSIVE CLAIMS OF EXECUTIVE POWER.

NOT JUST IN THESE CASES WHICH FAILED FOR PROCEDURAL REASONS BUT MULTIPLE JUDGES HAVE RULED THAT THE USE OF TROOPS IN U. S. CITIES TO ENFORCE HIS CRIME AND IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN WAS NOT LEGAL AND FLOUTED THE CONSTITUTION.

THE JUDICIARY IS, I THINK, CONTAINING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR THE BIG SUPREME COURT DECISION WHETHER HIS EMERGENCY USE OF TARIFF POWERS IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

THAT WILL BE ANOTHER ONE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, A DECISION BY THE SUPREME COURT EVEN BEFORE TRUMP TOOK OFFICE THE SECOND TIME ARISING FROM HIS CRIMINAL TRIALS, THE PRESIDENT HAS SUBSTANTIAL IMMUNITY FOR ACTS IN OFFICE HAS GIVEN THE WHITE HOUSE MASSIVE -- A PERMISSION STRUCTURE I THINK TO PUSH THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO ITS LIMIT.

LOOK AT FOR EXAMPLE THE DISMANTLING OF USAID, THE COURTS WERE USED TO TRY TO CURT AIL THAT, BUT BY THE TIME THEY CAME TO FRUITION, IT HAD BEEN WIPED OUT.

THE ADMINISTRATION HAS WORKED OUT HOW TO WORK AROUND THE COURTS TO SOME EXTENT.

CHECKS AND BALANCES FROM CONGRESS, WE'VE SEEN LITTLE FROM THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS APART FROM THE DECISION TO TRY TO FORCE THE ADMINISTRATION TO RELEASE THE EPSTEIN FILES.

>> AND WE'LL GET TO THE CONSEQUENCES OF CUTTING USAID IN THE NEXT SEGMENT.

THE OTHER DEVELOPMENT, THE PENTAGON ANNOUNCING A PROBE AND POTENTIALLY COURT MARTIALING OF AN ASTRONAUT AFTER HE AND FIVE DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS URGED MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY TO NOT ACT ON ILLEGAL ORDERS, NOT FOLLOW ILLEGAL ORDERS, AND TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION.

THE PRESIDENT AND SOME OF HIS SUPPORTERS SEEM TO HAVE NOT HEARD OF CHOOSE TO NOT INCORPORATE THE WORD ILLEGAL AND ARE SAYING THEY'RE ACTING UNLAWFULLY BY SUGGESTING THAT MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY SHOULD NOT FOLLOW ORDERS.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THE VIDEO CLAIMS, BUT JUST THIS ARGUMENT ITSELF AND THE PENTAGON LAUNCHING A PROBE, WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU ABOUT THE POLITICIZATION OF THE PENTAGON?

SPENT SO MUCH TIME FOCUSING ON THAT QUESTION FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

DO WE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THAT IMPACTING THE PENTAGON AND DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE?

>> YEAH.

IT SHOWS US THE ADMINISTRATION WILL USE EVERY POSSIBLE AVENUE IT CAN TO EXPAND PRESIDENTIAL AND EXECUTIVE POWER.

YOU RIGHTLY TALK ABOUT HOW THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED TO TRUMP'S POLITICAL GOALS.

BREAKING DOWN THE WALL OF INDEPENDENCE BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

THIS GOES ACROSS A MORE TROUBLING LINE.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, MARK KELLY, FORMER SHUTTLE ASTRONAUT, U. S. WAR HERO, FLEW CARRIERS, JETS OFF CARRIERS IN THE FIRST GULF WAR.

HE'S RETIRED.

TALKING ABOUT BRINGING HIM BACK INTO UNIFORM TO COURT MARTIAL HIM OVER THE USE OF HIS OWN FREE SPEECH.

AFTER ALL, ALL HE SAID WAS MEMBERS OF THE SERVICES SHOULD ALWAYS OBEY THE LAW.

THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE SUCH A HEINOUS OFFENSE.

IF THIS WERE TO GO TO COURT MARTIAL AND HE WAS FOUND GUILTY, THEORETICALLY THAT RAISES THE POSSIBILITY THAT ANYBODY IN THE ARMED SERVICES, SEEN IF RETIRED AND CRITICIZE A PRESIDENT, THEY COULD FIND THEMSELVES LEGALLY LIABLE.

THIS IS A HUGE CROSSING OF A LEGAL AND MILITARY RICEN, USING THE POWER OF THE MILITARY AGAINST A CITIZEN, NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> AND DECORATED WAR HERO AND ASTRONAUT AS WELL.

POLITICALLY I CAN'T IMAGINE THIS GOING WELL FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND WE NOTED LOWER APPROVAL RATINGS, CONCERNED VOTERS, REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT, OVER THE ECONOMY AND THE PRESIDENT LOSING THE BATTLE OVER THE RELEASE OF THE EPSTEIN FILES WITH HIS PARTY.

STEPHEN, THANK YOU.

> >> 91 MILLION LIVES SAVED IS THE EXTRAORDINARY LEGACY OF USAID ACROSS 20 YEARS ACCORDING TO THE LANCET, THE DISMANTLING HAS CAUSED 200,000 DEATHS, THEY SAY, INCLUDING CHILDREN, AND THE ADMINISTRATION REFUTES IT BUT THE PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE SEEING IT FIRST HAND.

A RENOWNED SURGEON WHO SERVED USAID TRAVELED TO KENYA WITH A DOCUMENTARY TEAM.

HERE'S A CLIP.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> THE TWO DIRECTORS ARE JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU.

IT WAS A DIFFICULT FILM TO WATCH BUT IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF ANYONE QUESTIONING WHERE THE USAID FUNDING GOES AND WHO IT HELPS.

BECAUSE YOU SEE THE LIFE OR DEATH DECISIONS THAT PARENTS LIKE ROVINA HAVE TO MAKE ON A DAILY BASIS.

TOM, IT SHOWS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN AID GOES.

WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO CENTER THE STORY ON ROVINA?

>> WE CHOSE TO CENTER IT ON ROVINA BECAUSE HER STORY EPITOMIZED WHAT IS HAPPENING ACROSS THE WORLD, AROUND THE GLOBE, TO THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

WE DID A LOT OF WORK TRYING TO FIND STORIES AND WE WERE GIVEN MANY, MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO TELL THE STORIES OF MANY PEOPLE IMPACTED AS SIGNIFICANTLY AS ROVINA WAS.

BUT HER STORY HAS AS PART OF IT A DRAMATIC ELEMENT, WHICH HAS TO DO WITH A CHOICE SHE WAS FORCED TO MAKE, A CHOICE NO MOTHER SHOULD EVER HAVE TO MAKE.

IT HAD TO DO WITH A CHOICE BETWEEN A CHILD, A SINGLE CHILD AND MANY OTHER CHILDREN SHE HAD AT HOME.

WHAT WOULD SHE DO IN A CIRCUMSTANCE WHEN THERE'S TREMENDOUS FOOD INSECURITY INVOLVED?

HER STORY IS A POWERFUL, POWERFUL STORY OF -- THAT TELLS US THE PROBLEMS SUBSEQUENT TO THE CUTTING OF USAID.

>> YOU FOLLOWED COMMUNITIES FROM ADVANCED AIDS WARDS, TO REFUGEE CAMPS, MORTALITY FROM SEVERE MALNUTRITION HAD DROPPED BELOW 1%.

WHAT IS THE FIGURE TODAY?

>> IT'S HARD TO SAY EXACTLY WHERE THE STATISTIC IS NOW, BUT OVER THE LAST TWO DECADES, SECURITY ACUTE MALNUTRITION HAD A 20% DEATH RATE.

THERE HAVE BEEN DISCOVERIES AND APPROACHES THAT HAVE REDUCED THAT DEATH RACE TO LESS THAN 1% AS YOU SAID THERE.

THE SYSTEM THAT MAKES THAT WORK IS BEING ABLE TO REACH PEOPLE AT THEIR OWN COMMUNITY WITH A COMMUNITY HEALTH WORKER, WITH A TAPE MEASURE AND SCALE TO CHECK ON YOUNG CHILDREN, BEING ABLE TO GET FORTIFIED FOOD THERAPY FOR THOSE LOSING WEIGHT AND SEVERELY MALNOURISHED AND RESCUING THEM AS A CONSEQUENCE.

THAT SYSTEM HAS BEEN BROKEN, AND WHAT I SAW WAS THE CONSEQUENCES FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THERE.

RESULTING IN MUCH HIGHER LEVELS OF STARVATION AND MUCH SICKER CHILDREN COMING INTO WARDS.

AND ON THOSE WARDS, NOT HAVING THE STAFF OR RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND.

YOU WERE SEEING DEATH RATES ELEVATED WHEN I WAS THERE WELL ABOVE LAST YEAR'S.

>> TALK ABOUT STAFF CUTS AND NUMBER OF DOCTORS AND MEDICAL NURSES THERE TO ASSIST THE PATIENTS.

WHAT IS THAT RATIO NOW?

TOM OR DR.

GAWANDE?

>> I'LL JUMP IN.

AS AN EXAMPLE, FOR A COMMUNITY OF 300,000 PEOPLE, ABOUT ONE COMMUNITY HEALTH WORKER PER THOUSAND REFUGEES.

PEOPLE COMING FROM SOUTH SUDAN, SOMALIA, ACROSS THE BORDER INTO KENYA.

KENYA IS A GROWING ECONOMY, INCREASINGLY IMPORTANT PARTNER TO THE U. S. , AND WE PARTNERED WITH THE REFUGEE CAMPS TO KEEP PEACE, STABILITY AND ATTEND TO HUMANITARIAN NEEDS.

THOSE WHO DO THAT WORK WERE CUT BY TWO-THIRDS, UNDER 100 FOR THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY AND COULD NOT KEEP UP ATTENDING TO THE MOST AT RISK.

AND THAT'S HAPPENING ACROSS THE WORLD.

>> TOM, YOU HIGHLIGHT SO EFFECTIVELY THE COURAGE OF THESE DOCTORS THAT ARE TRYING TO DO THEIR JOBS SO BRAVELY EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FROM AN INTERVIEW WITH A CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER OF CLINIC SEVEN.

>> CLINIC SEVEN PROVIDES THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF CARE FOR ALL REFUGEES.

WE STARTED TO SEE THE IMPACTS OF THE FUNDING CUTS QUITE EARLY WHEN WE HAD THE FIRST WAVE OF PEOPLE BEING LET GO OF.

THERE WAS A LOT OF INCREDULITY, THIS ACTUALLY CANNOT BE HAPPENING.

SEEMED UNIMAGINABLE THAT THE CUTS WOULD BE AS BAD AS THEY WERE, AND AFFECT THE SECTORS WHERE LIFE- SAVING ACTIVITIES WERE ONGOING.

>> AND TOM, THE FILM CENTERS ON A TERRIBLE CHOICE NO MOTHER SHOULD HAVE TO MAKE, THAT IS ROVINA, BUT FROM THE TIME YOU SPENT WITH THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS AND DOCTORS, WHAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE CHOICE THEY ARE MAKING BY CONTINUING WITH IN JOB AND THE DEDICATION TO THEIR PATIENTS DESPITE ALL THE OBSTACLES AND NEW ONES NOW WITH THE CUT OF USAID.

>> I HAVE SO MUCH RESPECT FOR THAT DOCTOR.

SHE AND THE OTHER DOCTOR IN THE FILM HAVE GIVEN THEIR LIVES OVER TO TREATING A POPULATION NOBODY ELSE WILL DO.

IT'S AN AMAZING -- IT'S THE NORTHERN PART OF KENYA, NEAR THE SOUTH SUDANESE BORDER.

THEY'VE BEEN THERE YEARS, ONE MORE THAN TEN YEARS.

AND HAS DEDICATED HER LIFE.

I HAVE TO SAY THAT THEY ARE ON THREE-MONTH CONTRACTS NOW, THOSE DOCTORS, BECAUSE OF THE FUNDING CUTS THAT HAVE HIT.

THEY STILL LIVE ESSENTIALLY MONTH- TO-MONTH AS PROVIDERS, DEDICATING THEIR LIVES AND CAREERS TO HELPING THESE MOST NEEDY PEOPLE.

SO THE AMOUNT OF WORK AND DEDICATION TO THE WORK THAT THEY PROVIDE IS ASTOUNDING.

AND NEEDS TO BE SUPPORTED.

>> DR.

GAWANDE, THE FIGURES WE CITED AT THE INTRODUCTION OF THE SEGMENT HERE, WHICH THE U. S. GOVERNMENT HAS REFUTED BUT WERE REPORTED BY "THE LANCET," CAUSING THESE DEATHS, INCLUDING CHILDREN, OTHERS FOLLOWING SUIT AS WELL.

YOU DESCRIBE IT AS A PUBLIC, MAN- MADE DEATH.

I'LL PLAY SOUND FOR YOU, MARCO RUBIO ASKED ABOUT ELON MUSK'S ROLE IN DOGE, WHICH HAS BEEN DISMANTLED, AS HAS USAID, BUT HE SAID NO LIFE WOULD BE LOST.

>> HAS ANYBODY IN THE WORLD DIED BECAUSE OF WHAT ELON MUSK DID?

YES OR NO, IF YOU WON'T ANSWER, THAT'S MY ANSWER.

>> NO ONE HAS DIED BECAUSE OF USAID.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RUBIO, NOW THE SECRETARY OF STATE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, WHAT WERE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> HE'S REPEATED IT MULTIPLE TIMES.

HE UNDERSTANDS VERY WELL WHAT USAID DELIVERED IN THE WORLD, HE WAS ONE OF THE AGENCY'S BIGGEST DEFENDERS, SIX DECADES OF REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC SUPPORT.

THERE ARE CRITICISMS THAT ARE VALID, COULD BE MORE EFFICIENT, USE LESS NATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND MORE LOCAL.

BUT NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE TO ADDRESS THOSE PROBLEMS AND HE'S REFUSED TO ADDRESS THE DEATH TOLL, HAS DENIED ANYBODY HAS DIED, EVEN WITH AMPLE INDICATION, DOCUMENTATION, OF THE DEATHS.

AND WE HAVE REASONS TO BELIEVE THAT THE 600,000 ESTIMATED SO FAR IS A --IS IN FACT SMALLER THAN THE ACTUAL TOLL.

THIS IS WHAT IS ESTIMATABLE FROM THE EXISTING DATA THAT'S POSSIBLE.

>> SAID, LOOKING AT NOTES IN YOUR FINAL MEETING AT USAID, THAT YOU FELT THE WORK WAS BIPARTISAN AND STABLE.

YOU NOTED YOUR WORK WITH THEN SENATOR RUBIO, NOW SECRETARY OF STATE, AND THAT YOU LACKED IMAGINATION IN ANTICIPATION OF WHAT WAS TO COME.

GIVEN EVERYTHING YOU'VE SEEN, FACT YOU LACKED IMAGINATION ABOUT HOW BAD THINGS COULD GET SPEAKS VOLUMES.

WHAT DID YOU MISS IN YOUR VIEW?

>> I MISSED THE WILLINGNESS TO DISREGARD SIGNS --THE PRESIDENT SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THE DAY OF HIS INAUGURATION, CAUSING ON A PAUSE ON THE FUNDING, RUBIO TURNED IT INTO AN ORDER.

AS LETTERS HIT, MIDWIVES WERE PULLED OUT OF DELIVERIES, FOOD AND MEDICINES ON THE SHELF WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GET DELIVERED, AND WE HAD A CHANCE TO SEE IN SETTINGS ACROSS KENYA AS AN EXAMPLE, ACTUAL DEATHS THAT RESULTED FROM THAT.

IT WAS CLEAR IN THE FIRST COUPLE WEEKS THAT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WOULD DIE IN THE FIRST YEAR.

AND I DID NOT IMAGINE THERE WOULD BE PEOPLE LIKE ELON MUSK, SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN AN ADVOCATE LIKE MARCO RUBIO, WOULD TURN ON THE AGENCY, HAVE NO CURIOSITY ABOUT THE HARM BEING DONE AND SHUT IT DOWN, PURGE THE STAFF, TERMINATE 86% OF THE PROGRAMS AND IMPOUND THE FUNDS.

RESULTS ARE CATASTROPHIC.

SAVED 90 MILLION LIVES LAST 20 YEARS, IT'S ARGUABLY THE HIGHEST IMPACT PER DOLLAR OF ANY AGENCY IN THE U. S. GOVERNMENT AND IT'S BEEN WIPED AWAY.

>> WHEN WE LOOK AT THE COST ALONE TO U. S. TAXPAYERS, ROUGHLY USAID IS $24 A PERSON PER YEAR.

AND DR.

GAWANDE, I HAVE HEARD AFTER THE CUTS WERE IMPLEMENTED FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT THERE WERE DEMOCRATS SAYING THIS IS NOT THE POLITICAL HILL TO DIE ON, THERE ARE OTHER CHALLENGES AND POLICIES THAT WE SHOULD FOCUS ON IN COMBATTING, PUSHING BACK ON THIS ADMINISTRATION, NOT USAID, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING AVERAGE AMERICANS ARE THINKING ABOUT EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I WONDER HOW YOU JUXTAPOSE THAT ARGUMENT, THERE ARE FAMILIES STRUGGLING IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL, WITH THE VIDEO HERE AND DOCUMENTARY OF WHERE SOME OF THAT MONEY COULD HELP, CASES LIKE ROVINA AND HER DAUGHTER.

>> FIRST THING I WOULD SAY, EXACTLY AS YOU POINT OUT, $15,000 PER AMERICAN TAXPAYER PER YEAR, THE BUDGET I RAN, IT WAS $24 PER AMERICAN AND REACHED HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

SECOND THING I WOULD SAY, INDIFFERENCE TO SUFFERING AND LOSS OF LIFE FROM THE DISMANTLING OF GLOBAL PUBLIC HEALTH IS COMING HOME.

IT'S THE SAME APPROACH THAT'S BEING USED TO DISMANTLE OUR VACCINE SUPPLY.

HIV PROGRAMS STOPPED ABROAD ARE HIV PREVENTION PROGRAMS STOPPED AT HOME.

WE'VE STOPPED PURSUING RESEARCH OF HIV VACCINES OR MRNA VACCINES TO PREVENT THE NEXT PANDEMIC.

THIS DAMAGE IS OCCURRING AT HOME WITH THE DISMANTLING OF RESEARCH AND MAJOR PUBLIC HEALTH OPERATIONS.

THE HARM DOESN'T JUST STAY ABROAD.

>> WHICH IS WHY SO MANY HAVE ARGUED ASIDE FROM BENEVOLENCE THIS WAS SOFT POWER FOR THE UNITED STATES TO HELP IT GEOPOLITICALLY AND ALL THOSE ISSUES THAT DR.

GAWANDE JUST LISTED IN TERMS OF WHY IT'S BENEFICIAL TO CONTINUE PROGRAMS LIKE THIS.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, TOM, WHAT YOU WERE HEARING FROM THOSE ON THE GROUND AND THOSE YOU WERE INTERVIEWING, HAS THEIR VIEW TOWARDS THE UNITED STATES CHANGED?

>> YEAH, IT HAS.

WHAT WAS ASTOUNDING IN OUR EXPERIENCE WAS HOW WELL VERSED THEY WERE IN GEOPOLITICS.

UNDERSTOOD EXACTLY WHERE THE CUTS WERE AND WHO WAS MAKING IT.

GENERALLY SPEAK THE SENSE IS AMERICA HAS LOST ITS SHEEN AND REPUTATION.

IT'S UNDEPENDABLE.

AND AS A JOURNALIST AND AMERICAN, IT'S HARD TO HEAR THAT, TO HEAR FROM THE PEOPLE MOST AFFECTED.

ROVINA'S STORY IS ONE OF THOSE STORIES THAT COMPELS US TO UNDERSTAND MORE BETTER WHAT THE REAL SUFFERING IS AT HAND.

I DO HOPE PEOPLE GET A CHANCE TO WATCH IT.

>> I HOPE SO AS WELL.

HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT.

IT'S ABOUT 20 MINUTES.

DOESN'T TAKE LONG.

BUT YOU REALLY SEE.

>> ON THE NEWYORKER.

COM.

>> YES, SEE THE DEVASTATING CHOICES OF CUTTING PROGRAMS LIKE THIS ON FAMILIES ACROSS THE WORLD.

ATUL GAWANDE, TOM JENNINGS, I APPRECIATE IT.

> >> "FLASHLIGHT" WAS SHORT LISTED FOR THE BOOKER PRIZE AND LONG LISTED FOR ANOTHER AWARD.

THE UNRAVELING OF A FAMILY ACROSS GENERATIONS FROM KOREA TO JAPAN TO INDIANA TO THE U. S. IN THE U. S. , IT'S SECRETS, LOSS AND ALIENATION AND CHARTING A DARK PERIOD IN JAPANESE/KOREAN HISTORY.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, CONGRATULATIONS ALL ON THE ACCOLADES THE BOOK HAS RECEIVED.

START AT THE WATER'S EDGE, THE NOVEL BEGINS WITH THAT DEFINING MOMENT, TAKING A WALK ON A BEACH.

HE ENTERS A MISTY AREA AND NEVER COMES BACK.

BEGAN AS A SHORT STORY IN THE NEW YORKER YOU WROTE IN 2020.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO REVISIT IT AND EXPAND IT TO A NOVEL?

>> TO BE COMPLETELY HONEST, I WASN'T EXPANDING OR REVISITING AS ALREADY TRYING TO WRITE THE NOVEL IN 2020 WHEN THE SHORT STORE YIR STORY WAS PUBLISHED.

I HAD THE CHARACTERS AND SITUATION BUT COULD NOT FIND MY WAY IN.

THAT STORY WAS MORE OF A CARVE OUT OF MATERIAL ALREADY THERE, THEN I WAS ABLE TO STRUCTURE IS FROM THERE.

>> AND MUCH OF THE BOOK IS CHARACTERS THAT DON'T FIT IN BECAUSE OF RACE, CULTURE, HERITAGE, LANGUAGE.

WHITE AMERICAN MOTHER WITH AN ASIAN FATHER WHO DOESN'T FEEL SHE FITS INTO LIFE IN THE UNITED STATES OR JAPAN.

YOU WROTE SO BEAUTIFULLY ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE SHE HAD.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT OR READ A PASSAGE FROM THE BOOK TO GIVE US A SENSE WHAT THAT EXPERIENCE WAS LIKE?

>> YES, AND THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT.

AFTER THEY GOT OFF THE PLANE AT TOKYO AIRPORT BEFORE THEY FOUND GREETERS OR LUGGAGE.

A LITTLE BOY WITH BLACK HAIR LIKE A GLOSSY BLACK BOWL POINTED AND GAPED AT LOUISA, GAIJIN, HE CLAIMED IN HORROR.

HE WAS DRAGGED OFF BY HIS MOTHER WHO HUSHED HIM BUT AT THE SAME TIME STARED AT HER.

WHY ARE THEY LOOKING AT ME.

JUST LIKE THE JAPANESE MOTHER, HER OWN SAID SHH.

BUT WHY?

THEY'RE NOT USED TO AMERICANS.

I DON'T LOOK AMERICAN.

ALL HER LIFE SHE HAD BEEN ASKED WHAT SHE WAS, WHERE SHE CAME FROM.

IN THE SECOND GRADE THANKSGIVING PLAY SHE HAD BEEN CAST AS THE SOLE INDIAN.

SHE EXPECTED THE DISADVANTAGES OF THE BROWN HAIR, EYES AND SKIN FROM HER FATHER WOULD BE ADVANTAGES HERE.

MUST BE HER MOTHER'S FAULT.

>> SO MUCH OF YOUR LIFE MIRRORS LOUISA.

YOU HAVE AN AMERICAN JEWISH WOMAN, A KOREAN FATHER, SPENT TIME IN JAPAN.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS.

I GREW UP IN THE MIDWEST, NO ONE LOOKED LIKE ME.

WE WENT TO JAPAN AND I WAS EXPECTING TO FIT IN BRILLIANTLY AND BE RECEIVED WITH GLORY.

YOU KNOW?

AT LAST, HERE YOU ARE, A PERSON WHO LOOKS LIKE US.

AND OF COURSE I DIDN'T LOOK LIKE ANYBODY THERE EITHER.

HOW MUCH OF YOUR OWN LIFE IS IN THIS BOOK?

>> THIS BOOK STARTS IN MY OWN LIFE, AND THEN REALLY DEVELOPS INTO A KIND OF WILD PLACE THAT MY LIFE THANKFULLY NEVER VISITED.

I WENT TO JAPAN WITH MY PARENTS WHEN I WAS A LITTLE GIRL, SAME AGE AS LOUISA.

IT WAS THE LATE '70s AND THE FEELINGS OF EXPECTING TO FIT IN AND NOT FITTING IN ARE VERY MUCH DRAWN FROM MY EXPERIENCE THERE.

BUT MY EXPERIENCE THERE WAS IN THE END VERY ORDINARY.

IT WAS THE EXCITING CULTURE SHOCK OF A YOUNG CHILD WHO HAD NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE OF HER OWN COUNTRY OR EVEN TOWN VERY MUCH.

THE WAY THE BOOK MOVES FORWARD FROM THERE, FROM THIS JOURNEY INTO A SERIES OF EVENTS THAT ARE EXTREMELY EXTRAORDINARY, I'M HAPPY TO SAY, IS COMPLETELY NOT BORROWED FROM MY OWN LIFE.

IT'S A WAY I OFTEN WRITE.

START WITH AN EXPERIENCE THAT'S COMFORTABLE TO ME, MY OWN, AND END UP SOMEWHERE DIFFERENT.

>> COMFORTABLE TO YOU, YOU'VE COME TO ACCEPT BEING DIFFERENT AND OTHER.

I RELATE AS AN IMMIGRANT TO THIS COUNTRY, MOVING TO THE SOUTH.

YOU WANT TO FIT IN AS A KID AND FROM DAY ONE YOU REALIZE YOU'RE NOT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

YOU SEEM TO HAVE ACCEPTED THAT.

THIS IS NOT A CATHARTIC EXPERIENCE BUT A PLACE YOU'RE COMFORTABLE.

>> I HAVE COME TO ACCEPT MYSELF AND THE WAY I LOOK AND APPEAR TO OTHER PEOPLE.

GROWING UP, ESPECIALLY IN THE UNITED STATES THROUGH THE '80s AND '90s WAS AN EXPERIENCE OF DISCOVERING SO MANY OTHER KIDS WHO DIDN'T FIT INTO THE SIMPLE CATEGORIES THAT EXISTED WHEN I WAS LITTLE.

IT'S BEEN AN EXPERIENCE OF THE COLLAPSE OF CATEGORIES OR PROLIFERATION OF CATEGORIES, NOT SURE WHICH YOU PREFER.

ISSUES OF LOUISA NOT LOOKING AND FEELING LIKE OTHER CHILDREN, THOSE WEREN'T THINGS I FELT I NEEDED TO WORK THROUGH ANYMORE.

WHAT I REALLY WANTED TO RETURN TO IN THIS BOOK WAS THE JAPAN OF THE '70s I VISITED SO BRIEFLY AND WAS ALWAYS HAUNTED BY.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK YOU WERE SO HAUNTED BY JAPAN?

WHY DID THAT STAY WITH YOU FOR SO LONG?

>> IT WAS SUCH A DIFFERENT PLACE FROM THE U. S. WHERE I HAD GROWN UP AND FROM THE JAPAN OF TODAY.

I ALWAYS HAD THIS SENSE, ONCE I BECAME AN ADULT AND STARTED WRITING, THAT THE JAPAN I REMEMBERED FROM 1978, 1979, ISN'T THERE ANYMORE.

AND I WANTED TO RETURN TO IN SOME WAY BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN A VERY POWERFUL EXPERIENCE FOR ME TO BE SOMEWHERE SO UTTERLY UNLIKE THE UNITED STATES, SO UTTERLY UNLIKE MY LIFE UP TO THAT POINT.

>> AND THE TITLE, "FLASHLIGHT," IT APPEARS IN IMPORTANT MOMENTS THROUGHOUT THE STORY.

WHAT DOES IT REPRESENT?

>> INITIALLY IT REPRESENTED THE FACT THERE'S A LITERAL FLASHLIGHT IN THE SHORT STORY YOU MENTIONED.

AND I'M NOT GREAT AT TITLES.

WITH THE SHORT STORY I FELT LESS PRESSURE TO HAVE A PROFOUND TITLE.

WELL, THERE'S A FLASHLIGHT.

SHORT STORIES ARE BEST TITLED IN A SIMPLE WAY, SO IT WAS CALLED "FLASHLIGHT" AS A STORY.

AS THE BOOK GREW AND GREW, UNBEKNOWNST TO ME, THIS IDEA OF ILLUMINATING SOME PARTS OF LIFE AND IN THE COURSE OF THAT CASTING OTHER PARTS IN A DEEPER DARKNESS, SO THE HARDER YOU LOOK AT ONE THING MAYBE THE LESS WELL YOU CAN SEE OTHER PARTS OF YOUR LIFE --THIS IDEA STARTED TO EMERGE IN THE BOOK BEFORE I COULD SEE IT.

MY AGENT, A WONDERFUL READER AND EDITOR HERSELF SAID I LOVE THE METAPHORICAL ROLE OF THE FLASHLIGHT, AND I GO WHAT?

>> THAT WAS THE INTENT, RIGHT?

>> I INTENDED IS ALL ALONG.

IT'S GREAT TO HAVE READERS THAT SEE THINGS YOU DON'T.

THE FLASHLIGHT PROBLEM, LOOKING HARDER AT OTHER THINGS.

>> IT COMES UP SO MANY MOMENTS.

THE FATHER CARRYING ONE, AND GETS LOST AT THE BEACH.

SHE STEALS ONE HERSELF FROM THE THERAPIST OFFICE.

THERE'S A METAPHORICAL ROLE THAT THE FLASHLIGHT PLAYS HERE IN THIS BOOK.

I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT LITERARY FICTION IN THE U. S. , AND THE CONTROVERSY OVER BOOK BANNING.

WRITERS UNDER THE U. S. ARE WORKING UNDER INCREASED SCRUTINY, I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT.

PAN AMERICA WARNED IT'S BECOMING MORE COMMON.

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW AS A WRITER?

>> I'M APPALLED BY IT.

HORRIFIED.

BUT NOT REALLY SURPRISED THOUGH.

I THINK BOOK BANNING, UNFORTUNATELY, IS AN EASY WAY TO WAGE CULTURE WAR, AN EASY WAY TO LASH OUT AT --IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THERE ARE CERTAIN MEMBERS OF OUR SOCIETY WHO DON'T BELONG, AREN'T EQUALLY DESERVING, AREN'T EQUALLY HUMAN, I THINK BOOK BANNING IS AN EASY AND COWARDLY WAY TO LASH OUT AT THESE PEOPLE, AND THEIR STORIES.

I LOOK FORWARD TO A TIME THAT BOOK BANNING IS ON THE DECLINE, BUT THE TRUTH IS, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN WITH US.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN DONE TO GREATER OR LESSER DEGREE THROUGHOUT HISTORY AND THIS HAPPENS TO BE UNFORTUNATELY A TIME IT'S ON THE RISE.

>> SOMETHING ELSE ON THE DECLINE IS THE AMOUNT OF TIME SPENT READING.

NOT ONLY AMERICANS, I THINK AROUND THE WORLD.

A NEW STUDY SHOWS THAT AMERICANS WHO READ FOR PLEASURE, THE NUMBER HAS FALLEN BY 40% THIS YEAR.

WHICH IS ALARMING, I WOULD IMAGINE FOR YOU ESPECIALLY AS AN AUTHOR.

BUT ABOUT I DO WANT TO ENCOURAGE OUR VIEWERS TO CONTINUE READING.

NO PRESSURE ON YOU.

BUT WHAT IS NEXT FOR YOU?

AND WHAT ARE YOU READING IN THE MEANTIME?

>> I'D LIKE TO JOIN YOU IN ENCOURAGING MORE READING.

READING IS IRREPLACEABLE AND ONE OF MY FAVORITE THINGS TO DO.

WHAT I'VE BEEN READING MOST RECENTLY ARE ALL OF THE INCREDIBLE OTHER FIVE BOOKS ON THE BOOKER SHORT LIST, EACH OF WHICH WAS AMAZING IN ITS OWN WAY.

I WAS SO THRILLED AND HONORED TO BE ON THAT LIST AND HAVE TO SAY IT WAS A TREAT TO REACH OF THE BOOKS BY THE OTHER AUTHORS.

WHAT I'M WORKING ON NOW IS FINDING THE NEXT THING TO WORK ON.

I'M SLOW, ALWAYS TAKES ME A LITTLE WHILE AFTER ONE THING IS DONE TO FIND MY WAY INTO THE NEXT THING.

BUT HOPING TO WRITE A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT MY FATHER'S FAMILY.

>> WE'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO READING ABOUT THAT.

JUST DISCUSSING IN OUR SHOW MEETING ABOUT THE BEAUTY OF THE CAMARADERIE AMONG THE BOOKER FINALISTS, SUPPORTING EACH OTHER.

THAT'S A WONDERFUL THING TO SEE AS WELL.

>> WE WERE SO LUCKY TO MEET EACH OTHER.

>> YOU'RE ALL WINNERS IN OUR BOOK AND WE SHOULD BE READING MORE BOOKS.

SUSAN CHOI, WE APPRECIATE YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> WHILE THE U. S. BATTLES A FENTANYL CRISIS AT HOME, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS TAKING ITS FIGHT AGAINST DRUGS TO THE CARIBBEAN.

DOZENS HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP ANNOUNCED MILITARY OPERATIONS AGAINST WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS ARE DRUG BOATS BY VENEZUELAN TRAFFICKERS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF CRITICISMS.

DRUG HISTORIAN ARGUES THIS STRATEGY IS FALLING SHORT.

>> DAVID, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE AN OP-ED IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" TITLED "I'M A DRUG HISTORIAN, TRUMP IS WRONG ABOUT FENTANYL ALMOST EVERY WAY. "

WHAT IS THE BIGGEST WAY THE ADMINISTRATION IS WRONG ABOUT THE NEW WAR OF DRUGS WE SEEM TO BE PROSECUTING?

>> FIRST, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

THE BIGGEST WAY IS THE IDEA THERE'S A DRUG-FREE AMERICA IN THE PAST WE CAN RETURN TO IF WE JUST STOP THIS FOREIGN SUPPLY OF FENTANYL.

THAT'S THE STORY, THE IDEA THAT OPEN BORDERS HAVE UNDERMINED AMERICA'S TRADITIONAL COMMUNITIES AND IF WE COULD JUST GET BACK TO THAT BEFORE STATE, EVERYTHING COULD BEGIN TO RECOVER AND WE COULD HAVE THAT TRADITIONAL AMERICA AGAIN.

AS A DRUG HISTORIAN, I CAN TELL YOU THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN DRUGS IN AMERICA, EVEN IN SUBURBS AND RURAL AREAS AND SMALL TOWNS.

BEEN QUITE A LOT OF DRUGS IN FACT.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS BEEN A CRISIS, BUT THERE ISN'T A DRUG-FREE PLACE TO RETURN TO IF WE STOP THIS.

>> ACCORDING TO THE CDC, THERE WERE 53,000 DRUG OVERDOSE DEATHS IN 2024, DOWN FROM 2023, AND ILLEGALLY MADE FENTANYL WERE IN 65% OF THOSE DEATHS.

EVEN WITH THE NUMBERS DOWN, MORE THAN 50,000 DEATHS A YEAR IS A STAGGERING NUMBER, SOUNDS LIKE A CRISIS.

DOESN'T THE PRESIDENT HAVE A POINT THIS IS A CRISIS?

>> WE SHOULD ABSOLUTELY BE TAKING SIGNIFICANT ACTIONS TO STEM THE DRUG BUT WE WANT THEM TO WORK.

WE WANT THE GOAL TO BE LESS DEATH AND HARM.

AND THE --IF WE AIM OUR POLICIES AT A GOAL THAT'S A MIRAGE OR FANTASY, THEY CAN'T SUCCEED.

WE WANT POLICIES THAT CAN ACTUALLY ACHIEVE SOMETHING TO IMPROVE PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND FENTANYL IS NOT A GOOD --IT'S NOT A GOOD PRODUCT FOR CONSUMER USE, IT'S POTENT, HARD TO PACKAGE FOR SAFE USE.

SO WE SAW A SHIFT IN ILLEGAL MARKETS FROM HEROIN TO FENTANYL IN THE 2010s, AND THIS WAS A SHIFT THAT DIDN'T OCCUR BECAUSE CONSUMERS WERE ASKING FOR IT, WE WANT A MORE POWERFUL OPIOID.

IT HAPPENED BECAUSE OF POLICY CHANGES THAT CHANGED THE INCENTIVES IN SUPPLY CHAINS AWAY FROM PROVIDING HEROIN, WHICH HAD ITS OWN PROBLEMS OF COURSE, IT'S NOT A PERFECT PRODUCT EITHER.

BUT THEY SHIFTED TO FENTANYL.

WE CAN DO THAT IN REVERSE, SHIFT AWAY FROM DRUGS KILLING SO MANY PEOPLE AND REDUCE THAT HARM.

>> HELP US PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE FOR US.

MOST ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE OPIOID CRISIS THAT AMERICA HAS STARTED TO DEAL WITH AND STILL DOES, ESPECIALLY IN RURAL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

HOW DID WE GET FROM PILL MILLS, OVERPRESCRIBING, PEOPLE GETTING ADDICTED TO PAINKILLERS, THROUGH HEROIN TO FENTANYL?

>> THE PROBLEM WITH FENTANYL BEGAN IN WHAT I CALL WHITE MARKETS, LEGAL MARKETS THAT SELL PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS, THE ONES PRESCRIBED BY DOCTORS AND SOLD BY PHARMACISTS.

WHEN THOSE MARKETED SPIRALLED OUT OF CONTROL IN THE OPIOID CRISIS, WHICH AUTHORITIES RESPONDED TO TRY TO FIX THE PROBLEM, THEIR ACTIONS WERE IN KEEPING WITH THE PHARMACEUTICAL ARGUMENT THAT THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE PRODUCT BUT THE USERS, DIVERTING THEM AND MISUSING THEM.

THE STEPS THEY TOOK WERE TO EXCLUDE THOSE BUYERS, PEOPLE WITH ADDICTION, FROM BUYING IN WHITE MARKETS.

THOSE ARE PEOPLE STRONGLY COMMITTED TO BUYING AND USING OPIOIDS AND THEY WANTED TO CONTINUE.

THERE WAS A MISMATCH BETWEEN SUPPLY AND DEMAND BECAUSE THEY DID NOT LIVE IN PLACES WHERE HEROIN WAS SOLD.

HEROIN MARKETS WERE A 20th CENTURY THING, THEY INVOLVED FARMS, WENT TO CENTRAL MARKETS IN MAJOR CITIES.

AND THE OPIOID CRISIS BEGAN IN THE SUBURBAN, RURAL AREAS.

THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO BUY OPIOIDS, NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE SELLING TO THEM.

MEANT SOMEBODY COULD MAKE A LOT OF MONEY.

NEW SUPPLIERS STEPPED IN AS MODERNIZERS.

DON'T NEED FARMERS AND GOP FROM THE SAP OF FLOWERS, THIS IS SO COMPLICATED.

HAVE A SYNTHETIC PRODUCT, MORE POWERFUL, AND INSTEAD OF SENDING TO A FEW MAJOR MARKETS IN NEW YORK, CHICAGO AND LOS ANGELES, SEND TO WHERE THE CONSUMERS ARE.

JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PRODUCT IN THE 21st CENTURY.

WE HAVE PLENTY OF EVIDENCE THAT CONSUMERS AT THE TIME DIDN'T LIKE FENTANYL, THEY PREFERRED OTHER DRUGS, OXYCONTIN OR HEROIN, BUT IT WAS HARDER TO GET THOSE, SO IT SHIFTED.

>> IF THIS IS A HARD DRUG TO HANDLE, WHY IS IT SO PREVALENT?

YOU HEAR ABOUT FENTANYL IN OTHER DRUGS OR OTHER DRUGS LACED WITH FENTANYL?

>> THE TROUBLE IS FENTANYL IS A BAD PRODUCT FOR CONSUMERS, OBJECTIVELY SPEAKING, IT'S HARD TO MAKE SAFE AND DOESN'T LAST LONG, ET CETERA.

BUT IT'S GREAT FOR SMUGGLING.

I CALL THEM PROHIBITION MARKETS.

WE THINK OF THEM AS TO ELIMINATE THE SUPPLY, BUT THEY DON'T.

FENTANYL IS STILL THERE, THERE'S JUST A DIFFERENT SET OF MARKET INCENTIVES CALLED PROHIBITION.

AND THEY FAVOR A POTENT PRODUCT BECAUSE YOU NEED LESS OF IT TO MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF DOSES.

THAT'S VERY --THAT CAN INCREASE THE CHANCES FOR PROFIT.

BECAUSE FENTANYL IS SUCH A GOOD PRODUCT FOR SMUGGLING, IT STARTS TO OUTCOMPETE OTHER PRODUCTS.

BUT ALSO PROHIBITION MARKETS DON'T INCENTIVIZE SAFE PRODUCTION PRACTICES.

WHITE MARKETS, PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES HAVE TO DO A LOT OF EXPENSIVE STUFF TO MAKE SURE WHEN YOU BUY THE PRODUCT, IT IS WHAT IT SAYS ON THE LABEL.

BUT IT'S JUST AS LEGAL TO SELL ACCURATELY LABELED FENTANYL, OR POORLY MIXED.

OR SELL SOMETHING YOU CLAIMED AS COCAINE BUT IT'S LACED WITH FENTANYL BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T CLEAN THE MACHINES.

WHAT HAVE YOU.

THERE'S NO INCENTIVE TO DO THE PROCESS, THE INCENTIVE IS AVOID THE COPS.

FENTANYL SPREADS OUT BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR PEOPLE WHOSE JOB IT IS TO MAKE MONEY SELLING DRUGS.

>> THERE'S ALSO BEEN QUESTIONING OF WHETHER OR NOT THE BOATS WE HAVE TARGETED AND ATTACKED, ARE THEY COMING FROM VENEZUELA CARRYING FENTANYL ONTO THE SHORE OF THE UNITED STATES?

>> NOTHING I'VE SEEN GGESTS THEY HAVE FENTANYL ON BOARD.

THE SUPPLY CHAIN DOESN'T INVOLVE VENEZUELA, AS FAR AS I'M AWARE, THEY'RE NOT A SIGNIFICANT SOURCE OF ANY DRUGS TO THE UNITED STATES.

I WENT TO THE UNITED NATIONS DRUG AND CRIME REPORT.

SEARCHED FOR COUNTRY NAME.

CHINA COMES UP, MEXICO, A LOT OF TIMES.

VENEZUELA COMES UP LITERALLY WITH ZERO.

THERE'S NO EVIDENCE I HAVE THAT SUGGESTS THEY'RE CARRYING THOSE DRUGS.

THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH SHOOTING FIRST AND ASKING QUESTIONS LATER.

THESE ARE IMPOSING THE DEATH PENALTY ON PEOPLE WHO AS FAR AS I CAN TELL HAVE NEVER EVEN BEEN ACCUSED OF A CRIME, MUCH LESS CONVICTED OF ONE.

>> WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THE OP-ED AND YOUR BOOKS, YOU HAVE A LONGER ARC LOOKING AT HOW THE CULTURE AND COUNTRY OF AMERICA HAS HAD PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE WITH DRUGS WE COULDN'T CONTAIN, BECAME SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE.

PRESIDENT NIXON WANTED TO START THE WAR ON DRUGS AND WE'VE HAD A DIFFICULT RELATIONSHIP TRYING TO FIGURE THIS PROBLEM OUT.

>> WHILE THERE LONG HAS BEEN WIDESPREAD DRUG USE IN AMERICA.

STARTING IN THE YEARS AFTER THE REVOLUTION, HISTORIANS CALLED IT THE ALCOHOLIC REPUBLIC.

DRINKING RATES SHOT UP TO LEVEL NEVER MATCHED SINCE, EVENTUALLY CREATING A CENTURY LONG CRUSADE AGAINST ALCOHOL THAT CAME TO A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO CRIMINALIZE THE SALE AND TRANSPORT OF ALCOHOL.

THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN THERE.

AND THERE'S TIMES THAT WIDESPREAD DRUG USE HAS LED TO PUBLIC HEALTH CRISES AND TIMES OF WIDESPREAD DRUG USE AND NO HEALTH CRISIS.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?

I'VE DEVELOPED A RULE OF THUMB.

PUBLIC HEALTH CRISES USUALLY COME WHEN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES OR LOTS OF COMMUNITIES ARE FLOODED WITH A DANGEROUS DRUG, MEANING IT'S REALLY, REALLY EASY TO ACCESS.

AND THINK ABOUT THIS IN MY OWN LIFE, IN 1980s I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL AND KIDS KNEW HOW TO GET BEER AND CANNABIS.

OUT OF ALL THE ILLEGAL DRUGS THAT EXISTED, THOSE ARE THE ONES KIDS USED IN MY HIGH SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY WERE EASIEST TO GET.

THERE WAS INFORMAL HARM REDUCTION GOING ON.

IN THEORY, SUPPOSED TO USE NO DRUGS, BUT IN REALITY THE ONES THEY HAD ACCESS TO WERE RELATIVELY SAFER THAN IF I'D BEEN IN HIGH SCHOOL IN THE 2000 s AND EVERY PARTY HAD A TON OF OPIOID PILLS.

THAT FLOODING IS BASIS OF A LOT OF THE CRISIS.

>> DO YOU SEE PARALLELS, NIXON STARTS A WAR ON DRUGS AND PRESIDENT AFTER PRESIDENT IN DIFFERENT WAYS QUOTE THAT OR COME UP WITH THEIR OWN SLOGAN.

JUST SAY NO WITH NANCY REAGAN.

EVEN NOW, ARE YOU SEEING THE RHETORIC POLITICALLY THAT COMES OUT TO STOP FENTANYL, ARE THERE PARALLELS BACK IN HISTORY?

>> A LOT.

EVEN BEFORE NIXON.

FIRST FEDERAL ANTIDRUG LAWS WITH MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCES WERE 1950s.

IT'S EASY TO UNDERSTAND THE REACTION.

ADDICTION IS FRIGHTENING, I'M A PARENT OF THREE CHILDREN AND IT'S TERRIFYING TO IMAGINE THESE HARMS BEFALLING YOUR CHILDREN.

THE IDEA OF SOMEONE SAYING I'M GOING TO TAKE A TOUGH APPROACH AND REALLY PUNISH AND SCARE THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO THREATEN YOUR CHILDREN --IT'S EMOTIONALLY SATISFYING.

AS A PARENT I FULLY UNDERSTAND IT.

UNFORTUNATELY, HISTORY SHOWS IT SIMPLY DOESN'T REDUCE THE RISK, SIMPLY IS INEFFECTIVE.

DON'T HAVE TO DEBATE IF IT'S BETTER OR MORAL, BUT IF YOU WANT KIDS LESS HARMED BY DRUGS, THAT'S NOT THE APPROACH YOU TAKE.

PROHIBITION MARKETS SELECT FOR MORE DANGEROUS DRUGS, MORE DANGER TO YOUNG PEOPLE THAN LESS.

IF WE ARE SWITCHING NOW, SHIFTING BACK TOWARDS THAT RHETORIC, HARSH ANTIDRUG RHETORIC, TRYING TO DEAL WITH DRUG PROBLEMS THROUGH -LIKE ACTIONS LIKE BLOWING UP BOATS IN THE CARIBBEAN, THAT SUGGESTS ANOTHER PERIOD OF LENGTHENED CRISIS BECAUSE THOSE APPROACHES DON'T WORK.

THE WAY THAT APPROACHES HAVE BEEN WORKING TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF OVERDOSE DEATHS, YOU CITED 50,000.

THERE WERE OVER 100,000 RECENTLY AND NOBODY WAS BLOWING UP BOATS WHEN IT HAPPENED.

IT WAS BECAUSE OF A SET OF PRACTICAL POLICIES WITH THEIR GOAL OF PREVENTING OVERDOSE DEATHS.

TALKING ABOUT FENTANYL TEST STRIPS SO PEOPLE CAN TELL WHAT'S IN THE DRUG THEY'RE ABOUT TO USE.

AND SAFE INJECTION SITES WHICH KIND OF BRING INTO PROHIBITION MARKETS A LITTLE BIT OF THAT WHITE MARKET SAFETY WITH A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL THERE.

THOSE THINGS HELP REDUCE DEATH.

EVERYONE SHOULD AGREE THAT PEOPLE SHOULD STAY ALIVE AND THAT SHOULD BE THE CENTRAL GOAL OF DRUG POLICY.

>> WHEN YOU THINK OF THE LONGER ARC OF HOW A COUNTRY CAN TACKLE A PROBLEM LIKE THIS, IS THERE A COUNTRY THAT'S DONE IT WELL?

>> I THINK THERE ARE --THERE ARE PRECEDENTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

MOMENTS WHERE THE POLICIES WORKED REASONABLY WELL.

AND I WANT TO BE CLEAR, THERE IS NOWHERE THAT HAS NO DRUG PROBLEMS OR HARMS.

BUT WHAT HAD BEEN HAPPENING IN THE 1950s AND '60s WERE TWIN CATASTROPHES.

WHITE MARKETS SELLING SELLING BARBITUATES AND THERE'S TONS OF HARM, OUT OF CONTROL.

WAVES OF HEROIN ADDICTION WERE WASHING THROUGH AMERICAN MAJOR CITIES.

ALL ELEMENTS OF AMERICAN DRUG POLICY WERE FAILING DRAMATICALLY AND CATASTROPHICALLY BY THE LATE 1960s.

AND INITIALLY THE WAR ON DRUGS LOOKED DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IT BECAME.

INITIALLY INVOLVED TIGHTENING THE SCREWS ON THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY, REGULATING THE SELLERS WHO ARE MOTIVATED BY PROFIT AND RESPOND TO INCENTIVES.

AND THEY REDUCED MANY PENALTIES FOR DRUG CONSUMERS, AND TRAINED THEIR SIGHTS ON THE BIG SELLERS.

AT THE TIME THEY INVESTED MASSIVELY IN SERVICES AND SUPPORTS THAT PEOPLE WHO DEVELOPED ADDICTION MIGHT NEED.

THIS IS WHEN METHADON BECAME WIDESPREAD.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE COMBINATION OF REGULATING SUPPLIERS, AND IN A SMART WAY.

MORE DANGEROUS DRUGS LIKE AMPHETAMINE WERE RESTRICTED STRONGLY.

LESS DANGEROUS, CODEINE OR IN THE SEDATIVE CLASS, VALIUM, THEY WERE LESS INTENSELY REGULATED SO THE MARKET WAS STEERED TOWARD SAFER PRODUCTS.

IN THE MEANTIME THERE WAS SPECIAL RECOGNITION THAT PEOPLE WITH ADDICTION NEED DIFFERENT KIND OF RESPONSE THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

>> WE'VE HAD VERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE RUNNING NEEDLE PROGRAMS AND WE KNOW THE STATISTICS BACK UP THESE WORK.

IF WE KNOW THAT FOR SURE, WHY ARE THERE NOT LARGER SCALE POLICIES TO KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE TO GET OFF THESE DRUGS?

>> A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH CULTURAL FEARS ABOUT DRUG USE AND REDUCING THE MORAL STIGMA OF DRUG USE WHICH PEOPLE BELIEVE PREVENTS PEOPLE FROM USING DRUGS.

BUT IT'S ALSO THAT THERE'S A DEGREE OF LEGITIMACY TO THE FEARS THAT COMES FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE.

I'VE BEEN MOSTLY TALKING ABOUT HOW PROHIBITION MARKETS SELECT FOR DANGEROUS DRUGS.

BUT IT'S ALSO TRUE THAT FREE MARKETS, LEGALIZATION AND JUST OPEN MARKETS THOSE ALSO LEAD TO SELECTING TO DANGEROUS PRODUCTS.

CIGARETTE INDUSTRY ADDING HUNDREDS OF CHEMICALS TO INCREASE ADDICTIVENESS EVEN THOUGH IT HARMED LUNGS.

IT'S NOT IRRATIONAL TO THINK IF YOU OPEN UP AN INCH --WE LIVE IN A PROFIT DRIVEN SOCIETY, DRUGS ARE PROFITABLE.

CAN BE A REASONABLE FEAR IF YOU OPEN UP AN INCH, CORPORATIONS WILL TAKE A MILE, AND WILL BE DAMAGE.

SO YOU WANT TO KEEP THE DOOR SHUT.

THIS LEADS TO FAILURE OF POLICY CREATIVITY.

YOU HAVE PROHIBITION AND FREE MARKETS.

IF YOU DON'T EXPLORE ANYTHING IN THE MIDDLE, YOU HAVE THE TWO WORST OPTIONS.

IT'S A TERRIBLE TRAGEDY WE'RE NOT WILLING TO TRY TO APPLY THE INCREDIBLE EXPERTISE WE'VE DEVELOPED OVER CENTURIES MANAGING THESE MARKETS, I THINK WE NEED TO PURCHASE LEGITIMACY BY SHOWING WILLINGNESS TO REGULATE THOSE MARKETS ROBUSTLY.

THE GOAL IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY TO USE DRUGS BUT PEOPLE THAT USE DRUGS TO USE SAFER ONES IN SAFER WAYS AND REDUCE HARM.

>> PROFESSOR, THANK YOU.

> >> ONE MONTH TO GO UNTIL THE BIG DAY, THE COUNTDOWN TO CHRISTMAS IS OFFICIALLY ON.

IN GERMANY, DORTMUND IS SETTING HIGH STANDARDS FOR DECORATING, OVER 1,000 SPRUCE TREES FOR THIS MASSIVE STRUCTURE, 45 METERS HIGH, ALMOST 150 FEET.

THAT'S A TALL TREE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER.

PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.