for WXXI.

This is connections filling in for Evan Dawson and Gino Finaly.

Today's connection was made on May 20th when the United States Senate passed the No Tax on Tips act.

The bill now in front of the House would create a new tax deduction of up to $25,000, specifically for cash tips received by employees in their course of work.

The bill was introduced by Texas Senator Ted Cruz with bipartisan second co-sponsor support and passed somewhat unexpectedly.

As NBC news reported, the bill was put out for unanimous consent by the Democratic Nevada Senator Jacky Rosen.

Meaning any single senator could block it.

Nunn did, and the bill went through the concept of no tax and tips, with a common refrain of President Donald Trump on the campaign trail, and was also supported by his opponent, Kamala Harris.

Proponents say it's a boon to working class service workers and puts more money in the pocket of everyday Americans.

But critics argue the true benefit will only be felt by the highest earners, with diminishing returns for the poorest Americans.

So to talk to us about it, I'm joined by Ken Gardner, economist.

Kind of thing for me.

Gina.

Yep.

Maria Stoyanov, a montoya, a bartender, an English teacher.

Do I get that right?

Stoyanov.

Thank you for having me.

I try I tried to practice before and I still messed it up.

No worries.

Casey Moore is organizing director of Workers United of upstate New York.

Casey, thanks for being here.

Happy to be here.

Thanks for having me.

And Melissa Fleisher is president of the New York State Restaurant Association.

Melissa, thanks for being here.

Thank you.

So I kind of want to lay out the groundwork of what this proposal means and what it will do.

So kind of want to have you kind of speak to a bit of what you see as the economic effect of a bill like this.

What's intended and what you expected for the actual outcome to be.

Well, that's a complicated question.

You know, sorry they had to start with that with that disclaimer.

the notion of of reducing, the burden of the public sector on people of lower income is not new.

We've been doing that for a long time.

Our whole tax system is a progressive tax system, so that if you're a relatively low income, the share of your tax and your income that you're paying tax is lower.

And so and so that is a time honored principle.

And we see that in terms of the standard deduction.

We see that in terms of the tax tables themselves and lots of other things that benefit people who are of a low income.

So I think the the reflex here is to say, gee, we've got this, this class of individuals who are paid a lot, and why don't we help them out by getting rid of their the tax that they're paying on their income.

but I think the question that this, this poses and before you try to kind of trace through the I mean, I mean, first, the summary on the total economic impact is it's really low.

Because, you know, for two reasons.

First, that that, that people who are tipped workers, generally don't have high income anyway.

And if you're, say you're an individual, you, your standard deduction is $15,000.

You have to make more than $15,000 to have to pay income tax at all.

And, you know, full time at New York State's minimum wage brings you 16, $700, 16,700, something like that.

If you're head of household, you know, your, the standard deduction is more like $22,000.

So, I mean, it's estimated that only 37% of individuals are actually be affected by this.

So the economic impact, just because the class of people for whom the income tax actually bites, who are, who are tipped workers, the economic impact is really going to be small.

but the question I just want to put on the table is why tipped workers?

Why not?

Oh, home health aides?

Why not social workers?

Why not custodians?

What is it about tipped workers that makes them, more deserving of elimination of of income tax than other people who are, generally in the same income class?

Really?

I mean, you work in a tip industry.

do you think this is the kind of thing that would massively benefit you, in the long run?

Not in the long run.

And I think, in the short run, for sure, I would have some more money in my pocket, weekly.

But it's not going to help with the cost of anything in the long run.

Such as, health care, for example, or child care.

And I would use it, I guess, to stimulate the economy by paying my student loans and not necessarily spending or investing.

You know, I think with, more income, there has to be more financial literacy and responsibility and awareness and how to sort of invent, invest that income.

But I really like your question or the, the topic that you pose is why tipped, employees.

And I think the issue is more, how we value certain bodies of labor.

And, something that I've struggled with as a bartender because it is my craft.

It's my art.

and it's very much what I am able to, support a family of four on.

is my work as a bartender.

It's a real job.

And I think sometimes when we looked at tipped employees in labor, the labor itself isn't valued as much as a paycheck or a salary job.

And maybe that's why we're sort of approaching this population.

and hoping to kind of generate more voters or generate more spending on that sort of ground level.

But I don't think that it's going to have lasting effects that are really going to help put me in a better economic situation.

So, Casey, a Workers United represents a good amount of tipped service workers.

And I think most notable is, Starbucks workers United is under the Workers United umbrella.

do you see this as something that is overall beneficial to the workers, that this is kind of meeting some kind of need that, have previously gone on?

Not in.

Well.

Will, as it's been put up by the proponents, put a lot of money back into the pockets of, you know, regular working Americans.

Do you think it would accomplish that goal and is the most efficient way to do so?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And, I agree with the speaker right before me that I think in the immediate it would be great.

We're always going to advocate for our members to have more money in their pockets, especially as there's, rising cost of living and all of this.

But I ultimately agree that I think this policy is a lot.

It falls in line with a lot of what the Trump administration likes to do, which is take something that's not ultimately going to solve the root of the problem and do something flashy.

That sounds great, but that does not address the root of the problem.

I think, you know, if you look at the other things that are going on, at the federal level right now, Trump's big, beautiful bill, you're going to cut Medicaid and Medicare and a lot of the tip service workers that we represent rely on that for health care.

And so you're going to, you know, it's the exact thing that we talk about in a union organizing campaign where companies will often do this, they'll give with one hand and take with the other.

And this is exactly what the federal government is trying to do.

And the thing that they're taking away is much more impactful than a few hundred dollars, potentially zero for some people.

and I think the other thing that we need to look at is that, it shifts responsibility away from the employer, which is a huge thing there.

I know companies like DoorDash and Uber are lobbying and advocating for their workers to fall under this policy, but what that does is removes the responsibility from them to pay a living wage to their employees.

and instead says, well, you have a tax break, so you don't need a wage increase.

you have the federal government taking care of that, which is, again, welfare for these big billion dollar companies like Starbucks, where I was a worker, but it doesn't address, the root inequality of what we're seeing going on in this country right now.

I think you're absolutely right to.

And if I may, I'll go ahead.

I've I've again been, I've been working in a tipped industry since I was 14, and I've often heard, well, you don't pay taxes on your tips anyways.

even without people having the actual knowledge of that.

And, and the burden of paying me is on my guest.

Right.

And if they assume that I don't have to pay taxes, they'll probably tip me less.

And they don't understand that that tip goes to more than just me.

oftentimes, tips are allocated to different people within the restaurant.

You have your, host and your dishwashers and all levels that make that cocktail delicious for you.

Right?

And I don't get all of that.

It goes to my teammates.

And the less people are tipping, the less money I get.

And then when you're talking about, the burden of responsibility, and we're looking at the minimum wage for tipped employees, it's significantly less than non tipped.

Right.

And the the American people are left to pay us.

They're responsible for paying me.

And that's according to their whim.

Right.

If they think that I'm good enough, they'll leave me more money.

But I can be better for someone that has the ability to pay me more.

And they might not necessarily do that.

Yeah.

And I this is the conversation we were having, in the newsroom before the show with that.

This is the very American system.

Like this is not the way most of the world works, that a gratuity, a tip is usually, put on to us or given to a service when you like the service a lot and you want to show appreciation for it, it's not considered a supplement to the, wages that the employer doesn't actually want to pay.

or doesn't have the ability to pay.

They could be one or the other.

But, Melissa, I want to turn to you on this a little bit.

this is just a fact of reality that tipped service workers are often paid less directly from their employer.

The expectation if take maturity and tips kind of make up the gap and allow you to make a living in, that industry does removing the tax not just an expectation.

It's a reality.

It's a reality.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

and do you think that taking taxes off of tips, again to specify its cash tips only that this bill would apply to, does that level the playing field of the wage gap that does exist at the core here, that there is a, there is a wage gap that exists for service workers.

they are paid at a lower level.

And, does this help them ultimately to make more money and put more money in their pocket?

Yeah.

Happy to clarify a couple points here.

from our standpoint.

So from the New York State Restaurant Association standpoint or the National Restaurant Association standpoint, this was not something that we were actively seeking or advocating for from either presidential campaign or camp at the time.

and when they came up with the idea, I mean, we want to support our employees and and this proposal came forward.

So it was it is supported by the National Restaurant Association.

But this, concept, first of all, let's clarify.

In New York State, you cannot share tips with back at the House employees.

So line cooks, dishwashers, folks like that can't be included in a pool or a tip sharing situation in the restaurant.

but you do share typically in the front of the house where you deal with the hostess, the, bartender, the service staff.

So, that's all true as well.

So it's not just the individual receiving the tip.

state law requires any time that you do not receive full minimum wage based on the cash wage from your employer, plus your tip that we make up the difference and pay full minimum wage.

But, from our data and our statistics, Bureau of Labor Statistics, you know, the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics is showing New York data, has an hourly mean wage for waiters and waitresses of 24, 54 an hour and 51,000 annual mean wage.

So I would agree with the rest of your speakers that, you know, this might not have a huge impact, but we are concerned about, you know, what is the message?

This tends to our kitchen staff, who are just as valuable team members to the entire restaurant family and need to also be recognized for the hard work that they're doing.

So I want to, add something in for the people that are directly involved in this industry.

during the campaign season last year, this was a constant talking point.

it was targeted ads on social media.

I saw constantly of, vote this way because, mostly with vote for Trump because no tax on tips.

I saw this dozens, if not hundreds of times during the campaign season.

was this something that people in the industry were really clamoring for before, the campaign or did this just kind of did it from your experience?

Did you see anything like that?

Maria, I turn to you did.

Personally, this is not the topic that I am concerned about that my colleagues and friends in the industry talk about, that's not the most important thing for us, where we want health care and, I know I've worked in restaurants where health care was available in 401 case, and that's wonderful.

And there are restaurant groups in Rochester that offer that, and that's terrific.

but again, the taxes on especially cash tips were moving more and more to a cashless society.

I don't make a lot of cash tips, to be frank.

most of my tips come in credit card form.

it's it just isn't a big deal for us.

That's not the forefront.

That's not what nation I'm sorry to enter.

That's okay.

Condition under the legislation does include.

Okay.

And it's very strange.

The definition of cash tip includes credit card.

I know that's very odd to say, right.

But it's it's wonky legislation.

Yeah.

Thanks for clarifying.

Yes.

Pretty sure that was true as well I got confused why and the cash the cash piece of this I mean you know it.

Yeah.

I mean it's still probably true that in many establishments the cash tips are not wholly reported.

So, it's, that's that's another little wrinkle in this.

The other thing that's interesting is and I think that that the notion that in New York State, restaurant owners are obligated to, to, to level up to the minimum wage, that's not true.

And, and we have a much higher minimum wage in the rest of the country.

So if you go to a different state where you don't have that leveling up provision and you're still at the $7.15 an hour, the tips are fairly a much larger voluntary tips are probably a much larger portion of a tipped worker's salary than there would be here in New York State.

So, Casey two, I wanted to touch on this point to you of, the workers that, Workers United represents.

was this a topic of conversation, over the past couple of years that led up to, you know, this being a campaign topic, was this something people they were really demanding and hungry for?

over the past two years that you've seen.

That's a great question.

And I work with, a wide range of workers, from restaurants to grocery to, larger chains like Starbucks and baristas.

And I can't say that it has been something that I've heard before.

I think, you know, the work that I deal with were directly bargaining with the employers.

So that might be a part of it.

but a lot of the conversations are around, you know, type guarantees from the employer.

So if, you know, we're not getting a certain amount of tips from the customer, can the employer, basically fill that gap.

But I think the things that I've been seeing from workers and, you know, my own experience as a Starbucks barista is kind of the point I made before where the concern is more about how am I going to afford housing, how am I going to afford health care, and what benefits do we even have access to in the service industry.

So from my experience, that's where the conversation has been more around.

And the idea of tax on tips.

While I know there's some unions, I believe it was in Nevada.

There was a large union that came out in favor of this during the last presidential election.

it's not a huge conversation to Maria's point, that I've been a part of.

So.

So the puzzle, if I can.

Gina, the the muscle here is, is that, you know, this Ipsos poll.

So the 75% of Americans roughly where supportive of the notion of having no tax on tips.

And yet what I'm hearing from the other people on the show today, that.

yeah.

It's not really a big deal.

And economists universally have said, yeah, no, it's not really a big deal.

So I think what we're up against here is a, you know, a great campaign throwaway line.

and, you know, it's been one of my challenges with looking at economic policy coming out of this administration is it doesn't seem to come out of a considered, assessment of, of of positions.

I mean, once again, white tipped workers, one out of their workers, you know, this became a throwaway line for the campaign.

It doesn't I don't think it has made a big difference to the campaign, but I mean, I and of course, so, you know, Harris immediately adopted it as well.

And it said, you know, your perception, you know, is that this is a this was a Trump initiative who has probably Trump first.

But then Harris jumped on board.

So anyway, I think we're caught up in the craziness of our current political moment.

I mean, it's hard not to be well.

And if oh, sorry, could I just add it?

No.

Go ahead.

Actually, yeah, I, I actually agree with what Melissa was saying about, you know, why some tipped workers and we're not even clear about what industries those would be.

They said that they would come out with a list of, you know, industries that have typical tips, like what does that even mean?

And so my other thought is that, of course, that creates, divide in the workplace.

So instead of being frustrated about, you know, the federal government potentially limiting the amount of people who can access Medicaid, you're going to be mad at your coworkers instead, because why does the front of house staff not have taxes on their tips?

And now we're paying full tax even though we make, same amounts.

And maybe I know a lot of restaurants where the back of house actually makes a lot less than the front of house because they don't have access to the tips.

So I think it creates, an environment that is not productive.

either.

Yeah.

And I, I think that, you know, from the consumer side of things, it is a real reality that especially I think since Covid, I think this has been happening before then.

But, since the pandemic era, we have seen the proliferation of tipping, beyond where you traditionally expect to see it.

I mean, go through your day to day life, and you will probably be asked to leave a tip about three times for how you throughout your day.

That would be my guess.

It's it's the tip jar that has become ubiquitous, right?

Yeah.

The tip jar, the tablet screen.

virtually everywhere you go.

I went with one of my friends to get ice cream last night, and I went through a drive through, and I was asked to leave a tip at the drive through which I never experienced before.

That's an it's odd.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the idea of supporting the workers themselves, but has it come to a point where this has been a way of subsidizing often low level workers, that the employers themselves are not paying for it?

they they are not paying living wages, and then it's being pushed off to the consumers themselves.

I pulled this week, the, financial publisher, publisher, bank rate, they did a survey, they found that nearly half of Americans, I believe, about 46%, view tipping culture as, quote, out of control with the phrasing that they used.

so two parts to this, and I want to lay it out to the table.

the thoughts on that one.

What is the core issue here that we are seeing such a peripheral proliferation of tipping being integrated in our day to day life?

And what is the core issue that we could solve here?

what could actually be done beyond just removing taxes and tips that would actually help the workers themselves?

as a worker themselves, Maria, I would want to turn to you first of, some of your thoughts on that.

I think it comes down to how, again, we value different labor systems.

And, why is my work in a restaurant, seen as not worthy of a livable federal and state wage, right.

And why is our practice to, fill in that gap, with gratuity and, and and if you do look at, tip, restaurant workers in other countries, they are paid, a more livable wage.

And, and tips are optional to show gratitude for that extra level of service.

So I'm not the economist, so I don't have a solution for that.

But I do think it's it's important to, pay you livable wages, to all types of labor.

And, how do we decide?

Again, we were talking about the front of the house in the back of the house versus, delivery drivers versus drive through, clerks.

Like, how do we decide what labor is more important and deserve, a higher wage?

Is that a fair question?

I can't solve that in this moment.

But, the way we structure our livable wages in this country and looking at housing and health care access is important to consider in all of that.

Can I turn to you a little bit?

I mean, is this sustainable the way that things, of course, is sustainable?

It's been sustainable for, how many, how many generations?

This isn't new.

it is a culture that's unique to the United States.

and it is wildly, inequitable, unethical.

So any question about that?

I mean, I had a period where I was also working in a, in a nice restaurant, you know, the at least as soon as we kept the lights down was a very elegant looking place.

If you turned off the lights, you know, the cigaret burns and the faded, curtains and all that.

But we did.

but it was a fun place to work.

I was, you know, was making of, you know, cooking at the table.

I made steak, Diane.

Flaming cherries jubilee.

I mean, it was really a lot of fun.

You're dating yourself with those, right?

Oh, yeah, I am indeed.

And, but, But it was fun while it lasted.

Yeah.

It was, Oh, I shouldn't shouldn't tell you how many years, a long time ago.

but, but but but enough exposure to that to understand, again, just how inequitable the tipping business is.

So if you're, you know, the tip is a proportion of the, of of the final bill, if you are fortunate to be, serving tables in a place where the average entree is 50 bucks, you're making a lot more money than if you're serving in a place where the average entree is $15.

And the difference in the work is, frankly, not all that significant.

so I think that there is and I think it's also clear that, there's a certain a certain amount there's a fair bit of showmanship involved and extracting better tips.

no surprise that, probably attractive young women get better tips than the the from frumpy 50 year old who actually knows the menu a little bit better.

so and there's all sorts of ways in which the system is a mess.

and I have no suggestion on how to fix it.

Again, it's deeply embedded in the culture.

And as you say, Gino, this this particular practice is moving into places where we didn't used to be the case, you know, tipping, into, you know, I mean, for heaven's sake, the ice cream parlor, the drive up ice cream.

Yeah.

They put that tablet in my face.

And at 18, 20 or 25%, they really.

I.

You reached out a window.

I think you.

And this isn't about not supporting the workers themselves.

I'm always going to tip begrudgingly sometimes when I don't think that it's a, certain service that is the tip that points out, that points out that the, the ostensible reason for tipping, which is that we're in a tip, for better service and not tip for worse service.

Many of us, I think, feel the same way you do.

I you know, this is kind of something I really just need to do.

Yeah.

The guy was kind of grumpy.

but, you know, I'm.

You.

He's he's, you know, he's depending on this, so it's just the system is just broken in so many, many different ways.

I, I think also the, the type, the level of service has an expectations of our service staff has changed too.

I study our food menu.

I spend a lot of time, crafting cocktails and working with the back of the house to make sure my ingredients complement their ingredients.

And my fellow, I'm lucky to be cross trained and I can work different areas in a restaurant, and we spend time learning about our wine list and the wine producers and their vineyards and their, we serve all natural wine, so we learn about that process too.

And there are different certification programs that these tipped employees spend time and money to further themselves in these careers.

To my only point, it's not all of them.

And and again, I don't think that that that the that the wage system for the person who walks in off the street doesn't know that.

Right, exactly.

They don't know that about us.

And I think that's part of why I was eager to come on the show today, is to kind of share that, like I, I'm also a high school English teacher, and I do a lot of prep that happens before I enter the classroom.

And I talk about Macbeth.

I do a lot of prep before I enter the bar and talk about my swizzle.

Right.

And there's there's a lot of research that we do for that too.

So our time isn't just, necessarily that 35 seconds that I hand you your ice cream cone.

Right.

And I don't want to diminish that.

drive through worker.

But we do put time in behind the scenes, just as you put time into research.

These questions that you're asking us today, should I tip you for asking such a poignant question?

Right.

Or, you know, I wouldn't say no.

Perfect.

Put it on my tab.

I can I can also say that, you know, working as a Starbucks barista for almost two years and I've had a variety of jobs in the service industry before I became a full time union organizer.

But working at Starbucks was the hardest job that I think I've ever had in my life.

I mean, the, you know, there's a certain person a lot of times that that goes to Starbucks.

So like when you're a new employee, you know, and somebody is shouting venti ice mocha with two shots of blond espresso and two shots of vanilla and this and that.

And, you know, it takes a little it is a skill.

You know, it takes a long time to learn.

It took me about six months to be able to make the drinks as fast as they wanted us to go, because it really is a factory line.

Working at a place like Starbucks where you're in a position for, you know, 3 to 4 hours.

I got carpal tunnel from working at Starbucks from, you know, the speed that they expected us to go and the drive thru times that they wanted us to hit and, you know, my mentor in the labor movement often says, especially when we were organizing Starbucks, you know, the only difference between, why a factory worker, why it's normal that we think of them as skilled labor and the fact that they're able to afford, you know, a middle class lifestyle, although that's quickly going away.

And the difference between a barista is that one organized in the 1930s and one didn't.

And, you know, I, I'm sure there's differences between multibillion dollar corporations like Starbucks and your average mom and pop restaurant.

And I understand that and understand the cost differential.

But I think that's, again, a broader conversation about the policies.

It's not just about the tip worker or the tip tax.

It's about, you know, why are billionaires the ones that are getting the massive tax buyouts from this, you know, new administration?

why are companies allowed to price got gouged like in the pandemic when we were seeing all these prices for foods increase and we were wondering, why is this happening?

And it's that, oh, companies can just get away with doing that.

So I think to the point about how do we solve this?

This is a huge question about the policies that are not just at the state level, but are happening at the federal level, too, and workers having a voice on the job, having better rights to unionize, I think is a massive part of fixing that, because right now we're down to 6% unionization rate in the private sector, in this company, in this country.

and, you know, you can look at the graph, it shows as unionization rate goes down, income inequality becomes a lot bigger.

So that's that's another huge piece of the puzzle, which I know we don't have time to get into.

Really.

In an hour segment.

we're got to take our first call, which you're hearing.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

No.

You're good.

I was just going to say, I think what you're hearing from everybody is affordability, right?

I mean, that is sort of the the biggest problem right now, cutting across all lines here of of each of us on the call, whether it's business or it's, it's workers.

I mean, affordability has become the challenge that we can't overcome right now in terms of the employees.

They've done an excellent job articulating what the challenges are in terms of child care and housing and health care charges that they're struggling to deal with.

And then the restaurant side, you know, we've struggled since the pandemic to come back and deal with the cost of goods.

And the prices in the restaurants have risen, you know, accordingly, everyone has seen it and it's made it more challenging for us to run our small businesses and our restaurants across the state and across the country.

So it's really about affordability right now.

We're going to take our first call the hour from, Tom and around to quite Tom.

Go ahead.

Hello.

Yes.

I had a my friend who passed away and worked all his life as a waiter and made very, very good money between here in Florida of skills restaurants.

And he never we, reported his cash tips.

So when he retired, he told me he got he was received the minimum, which I think is around $600.

Social security benefit.

I wonder if that was covered on people not, recording their tips.

I mean, they're only hurting themselves when they retire.

Thank you.

I'll hang up in the no tax, the no tax on tip legislation moving through either the reconciliation bill in the House or the Senate version that passed as a standalone.

This is wrapped up into that one big, beautiful bill in the House.

that actually is going to only apply to income tax and not like a tax.

And like a tax is where Social Security and, Medicaid come in.

So that's important that people can continue to pay into and then get, did I say Medicaid or Medicare, Medicare, Social Security benefit.

So if you don't pay into that system, you can't get out of that system.

So that's one of the things that we're making sure as, as representatives of the restaurant industry that it gets included in that legislation, because if we stop paying into that, then things like Social Security and unemployment benefits would be impacted.

So not like, taxes on payroll, but income tax only.

Just to clarify, we're going to take our first break of the hour and we'll come back.

We'll be talking more on tax on tips.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday and the next connections.

It's the last of our five interviews with the candidates for City council running in Rochester in the Democratic primary.

Your chance to hear them at length, to talk about their positions on the issues, to answer your questions and to prepare you before you vote.

The last of five coming up on Monday.

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Unless you're trying to get a mortgage and we're back on connections.

I'm Gina, finally filling in for Ivan Dawson.

We are talking on the No Tax on Tips act.

And for Ken in particular, I wanted to play a quick clip from Treasury Secretary Scott Bezzant on how the tax deduction will actually be paid for this, with the plan that the, federal ministration have.

So I think we have that clip that we can play here.

The president campaigned on no tax on tips, the no tax on Social Security, no tax on overtime and the restoring interest deductibility for autos, for American made autos.

So, terrific income could be used for tax relief on all those immediately.

So the argument he's making there is that, tariffs will be able to pay for all these different tax deductions and, tax.

So let's take two for two bad policies and roll them all into one.

That's why I want to get your thoughts on one big ugly bill.

That's right.

There we are.

I mean I could go on at length, but I think many people have heard those arguments.

The, the, the the whole, the whole tariff, thing.

Is it just a big can of worms and, it's complicated.

and the administration is going at it in a, in a purely bizarre fashion.

So let's talk about the I mean, this is not limited to service workers.

I think everyone, whatever industry or and save for some very, very lucky people out there are feeling some kind of economic squeeze.

and the wage gap in this country has widened.

and we are in a position where the core question that we have to kind of address, I think, is how do we make sure that every American has access to a sustainable living, a good living?

and we're in the context of talking about the service industry here, but again, it's not limited to just that.

But, Casey, I want to turn to you to start on this, this is seems like a tiny little startup that has a lot of bipartisan support.

It has a lot of people talking about it.

It seems to be attractive to voters.

But from the conversation we're having, it sounds like it doesn't really actually do much to address the core problem.

What do you think would, what what does benefit the average worker and can help them, you know, just have a stable good living from their employer?

Oh, wow.

You gave me a a big one.

where do I even begin?

I mean, I kind of already addressed this, but, you know, from my camp, it's having a union.

It's having.

And it's for those of you who have gone through a union organization process, you know, it's insanely, incredibly difficult to do.

and companies have outsized power.

The National Labor Relations Board, which is also under its support for your, from, you know, is it was already a weak institution is an even more weak institution these days.

and having a union is about having an equal voice and a company.

And so again, I'm thinking about companies like Amazon, companies like Starbucks, like Microsoft, these huge corporations that make billions of dollars where they do have low wage workers.

you know, I think I saw this statistic where it was something like the CEO of Starbucks, you know, only has to work an hour of his time to make what an average barista makes in an entire year.

You know, that's the that's the kind of inequality that we're living in.

And so if you look at policies that I think I would support, you know, you have the proact, which would help, workers be able to organize a lot easier.

You have Medicaid, for all, which would help with health care costs, because having your health care tied to your employer is another, you know, wormhole that we could delve into that makes it you know, alters the power dynamic a lot in the workplace.

you know, there's ideas of universal basic income.

Let's, you know, a little bit more out there, but there's lots of policies out there that would actually address and make a huge difference in the lives of working people.

And in my opinion, this is not one of them.

Maria, what about you?

I mean, what benefits the average service worker actually would help policy wise?

I think I've mentioned it a couple of times.

just access to health care.

and I think you just mentioned, having carpal tunnel.

and I went to my doctor to talk about my carpal tunnel, and I had trigger thumb from shaking tens, and his response was, well, stop.

I'm like, oh, cool, but I have to pay my mortgage.

I can't just stop.

So just having those sort of, safety nets, too, for it's a, tipped employees have both a very physically taxing if you say no tax, there's still taxes on our physical health and our mental health too.

So so ports around that too.

are very important for sure.

Melissa and the, the, the restaurant and, when you talk to restaurant owners, that are, you know, trying to, you know, support a staff, they're in a pretty, you know, razor's edge kind of margin industry.

I mean, what helps, what what could how what burden or regulation or policy could help to, you know, make the give the industry a little bit more breathing room, to, you know, support workers and give, the workers their living wages.

Well, one of the things we're trying to push for, this year, and we're quickly running out of time with the New York state legislative session, but, swipe fees on credit cards have risen, and a cost to the restaurant.

It's now the third or fourth largest expense to a restaurant behind labor and food cost.

sometimes rent, depending on where in the state you are and whether or not you own your location.

So what we're talking about with swipe fees is we are getting charged that three 4% on credit card swipe fees, on sales tax and on tips.

So that's coming out of the restaurants pocket.

When they remit that money to the employee, or they remit that money to the state for sales tax.

And we think that that should be changed.

And surprisingly, what we're hearing is that could average out to about $8,000 a year for a small business.

and we think it's really important.

And we have a coalition of other small business owners, not just restaurants that would be impacted on the sales tax side.

so that's something that we think would not cost the state government money would not impact negatively any of the employees or the guests, but would be positive for the restaurant and be able to keep some of those dollars in our pocket for the restaurant owner to hopefully keep building out the restaurant and get through some really difficult economic times.

Ken, I want to turn to you a little bit on this.

I mean, do you see any policy positions that can?

Well, let me I'm going to make things more difficult by throwing in some challenges here.

you know, when we talk about, unionization, we talk about the power dynamic between owners and workers.

you know, it has always been true, particularly so prominently so in the last 30 or 40 years that the advent of labor saving technology has put a tremendous amount of pressure, on the labor movement, which is one of the reasons why the labor movement, of course, has been shrinking.

and in, in, in this sector as well.

I mean, the, the fastest growing segment, in the of, in the out, you know, the food away from homes, category is fast casual, fast casual like Panera where you can order from a, from a kiosk and, you know, the amount of labor, there's no table service, the amount of labor required to run a fast casual recipe restaurant is far less.

The amount of training required for the people who are working in the fast casual business is lower, and so that puts some pressure on, I think on the attempt to, to unionize, you know, workers in that particular sector.

And we're going to continue to see that, that impact on technology.

And I you know, we're all tired of talking about AI, but, you know, there's no question about that.

Are moves that the technological pressure on on labor, engine new industries and, and new sectors entirely and, me and yours, Gino, I mean, the the unfortunately, yes.

technology on the on the, on journalism is astonishing.

on the, you know, one of the founders of the Rochester Beacon and, you know, we, even at our very small size, we struggled to figure out how that affects.

And I guess I'm I'm the opinion editor, and I get submissions that I read and I say, you know, darn, this thing's been run by an AI.

So am I actually going to pay someone a small stipend?

We don't pay much, but small stipend for for, you know, cranking up an AI and sending me this, you know, apparently superficially literal literate.

I'm sorry.

essay on on an important public issue.

So it's, you know, those problems are are.

I'm afraid we can get going to get more significant over the next 20 years.

Yeah.

Or two.

What you talk to, you know, that won my industry.

Absolutely.

I you look at any TV news website article they it's all formatted by AI now and we don't do that here and never will.

Anyone who tries to is going to have to fight me.

but, you know, in, in the service industry, you can look at how, especially larger industries have replaced low level workers with automation.

self-checkout lines and self-checkout lines have gotten very efficient over the years.

They they know in your hands before you even scan it.

it's only reasonable to think that as soon as the opportunity presents itself, probably to the the larger, players in the restaurant industry, if they can replace someone with an automation or AI or some kind of new technology tool, they will, a bartender might be difficult, a server might be difficult, but there are ways to do, things that typically would be worked by a low level worker.

Murray, I would like to get your thoughts on.

Yeah.

I think the most important thing for us, and, is the human connection and no, I don't I didn't mean to click into the name of the show, but I think that's our relationships that we foster in all of our work.

is the most important part and the humanity that we bring to it.

And you knew that article was written by AI because it lacked humanity.

I know it wasn't far off.

a lot of people submit that.

I know as written.

Yeah, by themselves.

I know in my challenge to submit an essay better and better that ChatGPT wrote, it lacks their humanity and connection.

If I'm looking for a fast bite, maybe I'll go to Panera.

But chances are I'm looking for not only something delicious, I want that human connection.

And you can't replace that with a robot.

I agree with that.

But I mean, the question is the share of the customers that are looking for the human connection.

I think that's why my guests come in.

They well, they love to see us and we love to see them.

And I'm sure that's true.

And I think that's a, and there will always be a place where that where that human connection is highly valued.

Unfortunately, here, you know, you're struggling with, a in an industry where a lot of people are looking simply to get in and out and get in and out fast.

It's tough.

It's just a tough place to be.

I want to build on that a little bit.

And Maria, just tell us why you entered the industry and why you stay in it.

it seems like it is a tough and sometimes physically taxing job.

So, I feel like I've been in this.

I think the way that I love is seeing full bellies and, I've been.

I come from, Eastern European background, and hospitality is always been really important.

and I just, I love that I can be creative and, and what's different, I've also been a teacher all my life, I think, too.

And the thing about working in this, in the food service industry is that it's not such a long term investment, as teaching as I, my seniors will graduate, and I may not see them for decades.

Right.

But I know immediately how you feel about that cocktail that I just poured for you.

And just shameless plug really quick.

It is Rochester cocktail revival week.

and so there's lots of great experiences around town and feel free to go and tip extra.

I'm speaking of tips, but anyway, and and that's part of it too.

In in the restaurants, I'm not just slinging beers and pasta.

I'm, I'm making connections and, developing these relationship with my guests to and understanding what they enjoy.

And I want to bring them that joy because as corny as it sounds, it brings me joy.

and it also, I can afford, working at a different kind of school that gives me some extra family time.

not necessarily in the public school system.

And, I, I could afford, being with my babies when they were young, too, because I'd work in the evenings so I could be with them at night.

So I think that the restaurant industry is a very vulnerable and forgiving place that focuses on fulfilling these human needs of, you know, food and sustenance, but also our emotional needs for humanity to.

And, Casey, you had mentioned how just difficult the work at Starbucks was.

yeah.

And I think there is an impression that a lot of people have that a lot of service industry jobs are for kids, people right out of high school or sometimes low level workers, unskilled workers.

And I was wondering if you can just respond to that idea.

This is a common refrain of, whether you think that's true or not.

I don't think it's so far from the truth.

you know, I would say to those people, okay, I'd like to see you, you know, make 50, 50 lattes during rush hour at Starbucks at seven in the morning when you're responsible for doing ten different tasks.

And also the idea about service, you know, it's a high school job, you know, okay, to Starbucks closed from the hours of 7 to 3 while everybody's in high school.

No, of course not.

There's people that I have, friends that have worked at Starbucks for decades.

and they love working there.

A lot of people do, as Maria was saying it, genuinely enjoy their jobs, but it's often just not a sustainable job.

Whether the physical toll it takes on people, you know, lack of health care or some of these other things that are just necessary.

So I think the way our society looks at service workers, and I think it is changing, though I have this one very short story I'll share where, you know, when I was first organizing at Starbucks, everybody kind of said that same refrain, like, if you want a union, if you want a real job, then go, you know, get education and go, you know, work in an office or whatever.

And then, you know, about a year and a half later, we were having a picket line at a different employer, also service industry and somebody, I kid you not, yelled out the window, if you want a union, go work at Starbucks.

And so you know, a year and a half ago, I was told that Starbucks workers didn't deserve a union.

So I think it is a lot about just how we view, these jobs.

And in my opinion, there's no such thing as unskilled labor.

All labor is skilled.

And it's just what, you know, it's a change in mindset that that we have to embark on to, to change those expectations.

So, Melissa, I want to turn to you on this, too.

I mean, what what what kind of person, from your experience is the kind there, the attracted to the service industry and is, you know, there for the long haul that, are, are doing that kind of work and they're doing it day in, day out and, are committed to it.

What how would you describe a person like that from your experience?

I would say that, you know, you meet a lot of people.

People people, so those people who are very outgoing, very friendly, love talking to people and meeting new people.

They're usually very energetic.

love the flexibility of the industry.

You know, that's something you have to embrace.

You have to embrace that.

You can work different shifts, but you're also going to work weekends, you're going to work holidays, you're going to work times when your family and friends have time off.

but you know you love it and you have a passion for it.

And I couldn't agree more with Marie and Casey on, you know, raising the bar on the professionalism of this industry is hard work, and it should be viewed as as professional a job as anything else out there.

So, I mean, I think that's what you find is that you find people with a real passion either for feeding people or seeing people, depending on whether or not you know, they're cooking for them or they're serving them.

But it's it's all about pleasing, pleasing the guests as they walk through that door and and putting a smile on their face.

Can I ask a clarification question?

does this bill, include other types of service like, hair and spa service?

It does.

Yeah.

And that's why Nevada was so, their senators were so hot and happy because the casino workers so there is yeah, it's pretty much it's anyone who received the tap.

so.

And, yeah.

Melissa, that sounds like a worker who deserves health care.

so, yeah, I appreciate, Oh, you are being here.

Ken Garner, economist.

Maria, thank you so much for being here.

This is great.

Casey, with Workers United and, Melissa with the New York State Restaurant Association.

A lot of people here today.

thank you both for being here so much.

Thank you.

Everybody.

Oh.

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