From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in the fall of 2024, when a new academic year began with a new benchmark, the average cost for a year of American private higher education had surpassed $60,000.

A handful of schools reached the $100,000 mark.

Meanwhile, fewer high school students were applying to college.

Incoming freshman classes were down about 15% from their peak in 2010.

Some of that is because of the well-publicized enrollment cliff, but some is because Americans tend to say they doubt the value of a higher ed degree, or at least they don't believe in the value the way they used to.

Just over a month ago, Nazareth University welcomed a new president.

Maureen Finney takes on the challenge of leading the institution that has around 2000 undergraduate students, 500 graduate students.

We invited President Finney to join us to discuss the future of higher education, what schools are teaching, what's changing, what students are asking for.

How to deal with the enrollment cliff and more.

And she's generous enough to join us in studio today, president Maureen Finney of Nazareth University.

Welcome to the program.

Thank you so much, Eva.

And I'm really honored to be here.

And a little bit of a background or for yourself, if you could introduce yourself to the audience a little bit about your own sort of work history and your path.

Sure.

Position.

Sure.

So my path, to this position was not direct.

I am a physician assistant by clinical training, and I entered the higher education landscape by being a PA faculty member, became a department chair, then became a dean at dual University of Health Professions.

All while teaching and learning and administering.

I saw patients at the Erie County Medical Center for 25 years and primary care, and then I became the provost and executive vice president at Hilbert College for about a year and a half before I took the provost post here at Nazareth in 2022.

So I've been here in Rochester now happily, for four years.

I really love Nazareth University, and I'm deeply honored to assume this role.

And you're from Buffalo?

I sure am.

Go.

So not too far down the road?

Yes.

When?

When you were of college going age, where did you go?

I went, to undergraduate at Niagara University.

That's where I met my husband.

My father was a teacher there for 45 years.

So, it was a beautiful, pathway.

And do you remember what did you pay for your higher education?

I don't remember, but I know it wasn't what we charge now.

It was, I think room and board was maybe $1,500, and tuition was probably about 7 or 8000.

Yeah.

I mean, according to the Education Data Initiative, since 1963, inflation adjusted tuition has risen 312% at public universities, 259% at private universities and colleges.

And I know that doesn't surprise you.

I know you live in that world now.

But again, that's inflation adjusted.

That's not just raw dollars, right?

So the cost of higher ed has truly gone up immensely for American families.

A lot driven by the 80s and 90s.

But certainly here we are today.

Right.

So I want to talk a little bit about how you see this.

And I saw something interesting on the Nazareth website.

So the cost for a year at Nazareth is listed at about $67,000.

But your website says zero students pay the full sticker, correct.

Zero.

Correct.

So why is that the full sticker.

Right.

Good point.

I think, you know, I think you're you're putting a pulse and higher education phenom that we really do, I think have to address as an industry.

When you have a sticker price like that across the board and Nazareth is not different, I think it is a rate limiter to those that think that maybe access and opportunity aren't for them.

And Nazareth is all about access and opportunity.

And so we work very hard, through our endowment, through scholarship opportunities, to make sure that we can meet learners where they are so that they can have a Nazareth education.

So when you talk about a rate limiter, I think what I hear you saying is, even if no one is paying the sticker price, the fact that the sticker price is that high means someone's going to look at that and go, that ain't for me.

I'll never for that.

Absolutely.

And so the equal message, I think, is, and I think we're doing a much better job on this now, is really connecting with families and connecting with students about what a standard package would look like.

And the opportunities both from institutional resources and external resources, to help finance the education.

Is there pressure on schools like yours to have a sticker price that's higher than the national average, because you want to create the impression that you're better than the national average?

You know, that's a really good point, I think.

I don't think it's an absolute.

I think you know, for as much as the sticker price could be off putting, there are a set of consumers that want to say, well, I'm going to X school and they're going to discount it.

This much, and this is how much they value me.

So sometimes the scholarship really is a value statement from the institution to the student to say, look how much they value me.

So it is a bit of a it is a bit of a quagmire, of being competitive in the field of ensuring that we can articulate the why of the investment.

And my leadership team and I are really focused on that this year.

We realize this is a financial investment.

It's a psychological investment.

It's an emotional investment.

It's an intellectual investment.

So what is the ROI of that investment?

That is a more forthright answer than I expected.

I expected you to tell me that.

No, there's no pressure to you know, that there is.

You're saying there is a psychological component to all of this?

Absolutely.

I mean, the and we I think we'd be fooling ourselves if we didn't realize that it is a it's a consumer driven process.

We have to tell the story of the why.

And people love to feel valued and seen.

We all do.

And so the the external facing price point that we advertise equal to, that has to be how we're going to help people get there so that they can have access to a Nazareth University education.

Is it fair to say that you think a student who's paying, let's say, their family or the student is paying 44,000?

Would they feel more valued if they were able to say I'm getting a third off every year?

Nazareth values me that much.

They're not going to third off sticker.

I'm only paying 44 versus Nazareth cost 44 and I'm paying full way.

Yes there is there is that.

There is.

There's a huge body of literature now about the consumer psychology of, college going and families.

And I, you know, I think the one part that we always keep in mind of and our leadership team is, you know, financial literacy often goes with those that have had the opportunity to be educated in a higher education system.

And so as we as a university are ever focused on ensuring access to all those that have, parents or grandparents who didn't go to college might not even know what questions to ask.

To get them to a place where they can actually feel like they could afford and belong in the institution.

So we actually have, first generation financial aid counselors, first generation admission counselors to work with that body of students.

Here's the cynical side of me, okay?

Tell me why.

If no one is paying for boat, you don't just cut cost to begin with.

Cut that sticker down.

You know, it's a lot of institutions have done that.

They call it a tuition reset.

And, you would think that that would work.

But retrospective analysis shows that it doesn't.

The consumer psychology doesn't work in that way, that eventually the actually the cost of educating the student, as you noted so nicely in your introductory comments, it is going up.

You know, salaries are have to keep up with being competitive.

The benefit profile to help health care.

What you know, something about.

Yes, yes.

All of that.

You know, none of those premiums are decreasing.

And so, for an institution like Nazareth and this is not uncommon, you know, 90% or $0.90 of every dollar in our operational budget comes from tuition and fees.

So it is the lifeblood of, strong institution.

And you're an institution that you want to grow.

Absolutely.

You're, again, about 2000 undergrad, 500 graduate students.

How big do you want to get?

Ideally, I would like to get to a total enrollment of about 2750.

With the case mix.

That's my I guess my.

10% growth from.

About 10% would be great.

Yeah.

We have the capacity on campus to be able to house, that increase of, of students.

We have the classroom space, we have the infrastructure that we could easily, accommodate that.

The thing I think that's even more important, though, and, you and I were just chatting about this quickly when I first started in higher education.

You could say I am going to grow this, and you didn't really have to have the strategic aim or plan behind the how of it.

This is going to be strategic growth.

Looking where mission and market meet.

So an example of this and the commitment of the institution of this is the starting of our PA program, which of course I'm very proud of.

That's a a premier example of where Nazareth is looking at market opportunity and mission alignment with our institution.

So likewise, we are soon, hopeful to be starting a nurse practitioner program in women's health, a doctorate in social work.

These are all opportunities where we know there are learners seeking, education, and it will strengthen our institution as well.

And you seem to be asking very direct questions about what are the jobs of the future and what are the lines of work in the careers that are going to be durable?

No matter no matter what comes down the pike with technology?

Absolutely.

So I think the beauty of Nazareth is we know who we are as an institution because of our founding.

And we do embrace the liberal arts and sciences because it does teach you to discern.

It does teach you to critically think, and it does teach you to communicate effectively no matter what technological advances happen, AI, etc., etc.

you still need those high level functioning skills.

99% of our graduates currently are either employed in their field of choice or in their graduate field of choice, six months after commencement.

That's extraordinary.

So we are doing something also right at Nazareth of ensuring that with that beautiful, liberal arts and sciences core and the professional field, this integration of where liberal arts and sciences and professional fields can meld is really the sweet spot for Nazareth.

Right.

Let me close book on a couple other of the dollars and cents stuff.

Sure.

Which I know you love to talk about, too.

Yeah, we're going to talk more about the different fields that you do offer and how you make those decisions.

And frankly, what students are telling you.

I'm very curious about that.

We're talking to Maureen Finney, who is president of Nazareth University as of the beginning of July.

So just about a month into the new job, in Maureen comes to us, on a day where, I mean, I understand it's summer, but a lot of work to be done with students while students come in when.

They come in three weeks.

Oh, three weeks.

Very excited.

Yes.

Come back, students.

We missed you there on the doorstep.

If you've got questions, comments, listeners, as we talk the future of higher ed here, you can email the program.

As always, the email address is connections at WXXI dawg.

You can join the chat if you're watching on the Sky news YouTube channel.

Or you can call the program toll free.

My phone still work.

It's 844295284429582552636.

If you call from Rochester 2639994.

President Finney is with us for the hour here.

So, last couple questions I have on the dollars and cents is this when you look at that last 60 years, higher ed costs for private schools are up two and a half times.

Public schools are up three times.

Could we do that?

I mean, is there going to be a point where in today's dollars, the average cost is going to be over $100,000?

Could we get that high?

I certainly hope not.

I think that, you know, your premise at the beginning of the conversation is is a right one.

I think that, we have to look as a market, you know, we're mission driven, values driven institutions that really want to ensure access and opportunity.

Nazareth is founded on that.

And so, you know, at some point, folks are just going to say, this is not worth the investment and we can't get ourselves there.

I mean, at this moment, I can absolutely say higher education is worth the investment.

Because the price point is at that is at that level.

But I think, like most things, you know, I it's similar to degree chases of certain professions going to a doctoral degree and then students having to incur more debt to have the same level of functionality.

I think we have to look at that at higher and higher education as well.

And national leaders all across the spectrum, are constantly having these conversations about what is that sweet spot of ensuring we have a strong financial model, and a strong financial model for most institutions is enrollment.

It's not.

There are, of course, is a subset of the, you know, premier institutions, the Ivy League institutions that have billion dollar endowments and are able to offer things that's not 90% of the campuses across the state.

So.

We do have to keep our eye on that.

I mean, certainly the market this is where the market will tell you if it's too expensive.

Absolutely.

And in some ways, that has started to happen, although a lot of probably what we've seen is enrollment, Cliff, which we're going to talk about in a moment.

But yeah, I mean, the market will tell you if there's no return on investment anymore.

Yes.

And, you know, with some of the new, federal, government guidelines of ensuring that we are transparent about the value of education, we are being encouraged to ensure that our students know what they are committing to.

Explain what that means.

Yes.

So there's a federal Value Transparency Act where, and it'll be an action next year where each of the undergraduate programs and graduate degrees across higher education have to show that the earnings, if it's a baccalaureate degree, that the earnings of that degree are higher than a high school graduate average earnings.

Now, what that says is that the only thing that matters is salary.

It doesn't mean employability.

It doesn't mean retention in the workplace.

Of course, there's other values that come with a degree.

But we are all being held now to that, to that standard with this new federal government.

Dictate.

Yeah.

So when I first read that, I thought the same thing.

I thought, first of all, philosophy degrees are dead.

Liberal arts are in trouble, and they were already in trouble.

Am I wrong to think that.

I yeah, I, I sure hope we don't say it in that way.

I think that we need we need, society that knows how to critically link, critically think, discern, disagree.

We need collegial disagreement.

We need to know, how to do that together.

And degrees in the liberal arts help you do that.

Okay.

But in terms of showing ROI, can you show can the average school show ROI on those degrees?

So, the data is still coming out.

What I would say is in institutions like Nazareth, many of our students who, major in the liberal arts also double major and professional degrees, and, and have many minors.

And so, you know, the some of the statistics that I'm really proud of about, you know, Nazareth in our education is the, six month placement, graduation rate.

But on average, our students complete five experiential learning opportunities before they graduate.

So study abroad, internships, externships, and 99% of those supervisors said they would hire a Nazareth graduate.

So, well, I know that the the narrative is there's no value in those liberal arts degrees.

I would I would show this data as equally important to say, no, they're critical part of our workforce.

They are getting hired and they're contributing to the greater good.

Let me grab a phone call.

This is Adam in Rochester on the phone with President Maureen Finney of Nazareth University.

Hey, Adam.

Go ahead.

Hi.

So my name is Adam Rich, and I'm just wondering, how does novelty scholarship and play a role in not in student success and honest answers.

Really?

Promotes or sustains faculty scholarship?

You know, as we try to gain student enrollment.

Yeah, we increase retention rate.

Oh, that's a great, great, great question, Adam.

Thank you for asking that.

You know, teaching scholarship and service are the three pillars of, what, make up, faculty portfolio and what's so important about it.

And at Nazareth, we have extraordinary scholarship on our campus.

You know, we've had many Fulbright scholars, which I'm very, very proud of as part of the tenure, and promotion process, scholarship is heavily looked at.

We actually use Boyer's model of scholarship to ensure that certainly it's wonderful to publish a paper.

And in our one, journal.

But equally important is the scholarship of innovation and creativity and teaching and learning.

So that's one our arm of it.

In addition, we have faculty leaders who lead our, Office of institutional, research and, scholarship.

So we have a whole day on campus and it's usually in April.

So, Adam, if you're in town, I'd like to invite you.

You'll love it.

Where our students get to present their faculty related scholarship together.

And it's a transformative moment.

So why I really like your question.

I think, a part of the underpinning here is this is part of the piece of the value contribution of being in a higher education environment.

It's the scholarship of inquiry and research that's also important of asking questions that we don't have answers to.

So, Nazareth is really strong in that regard.

You know, what I always say to people is, you know, we might be smaller in size, but we are certainly mighty on the Nazareth campus when it comes to scholarship.

Adam, thank you for the phone call.

84429528442958255.

If you want to join the program 2636 if you call from Rochester 2639994.

So on that question about academic sort of exploration and achievement, one of the trends that seems to be kind of parallel to what we've been talking about is so grades are way up and I don't have all the data in front of me.

I certainly don't have data from NAS, although, you know, Harvard's grades have been pretty well publicized.

You know, I think a generation and a half ago, the average Harvard class, 25% students got A's.

Now it's more than 60%.

And, you know, I think students are smart.

I don't know that they're that much smarter than they used to be.

And I've taught exactly one class in my life.

I was telling, President Finney before the program I taught an under.

I'm sorry, not an undergrad.

And I was an adjunct for one semester at Nazareth more than a decade ago, and I had a great experience.

I'm a human being.

I didn't want to see any students fail.

I had one student who just wasn't doing the work.

And I'm like, what can I do to get this dude?

Like, don't come to don't come to Nazareth and then fail a class like this.

So I'm trying to pull the student forward.

And maybe I'm not tough enough, but it seems like the culture used to be more students would show up, they be undeclared, they figure it out.

It would be this academic exploration.

They would be challenged.

Professors had high standards.

You could fail if you if you didn't do the work.

And now it's like, well, prices are up and the Trump administration is saying, I need to see ROI in every single major.

And students are looked at as like clients, and you really want clients to be happy, so you want them to walk away thinking, okay, I got decent grades, I can set myself up.

For a good future.

I don't know anybody who's looking at grades any more in transcripts.

Maybe they do, but it just feels different.

Am I overthinking it, or do you think that change in culture is there?

I don't know if it's there in that level of absolute, what I would say is that, integrity and setting our students up for success is primary.

So at Nazareth, we've done a lot of backing up the training, if you will, of knowing what students need from the moment they put their feet on campus to be successful.

And part of that is establishing expectations and outcomes from the very, very beginning.

And we've done a lot of professional development with faculty and staff about what that means.

We've completely restructured their entrance to college course.

You know, most campuses have the one credit course in that regard to say, you know, this is what it means to be successful.

In addition, I have to really applaud the faculty because, while they are rigorous for certain, they are so supportive.

On the success of the student meeting with the students often.

You know, campus office hours are always busy and on our campus.

And many of these degree programs lead to licensure.

So we have to ensure that our students are prepared the first time they sit for those exams.

So there really can't be that great inflation just for the sake of, you know, to seek to do it.

I do think that, you know, the transition from high school to college, the biggest leap is this cultural difference of, you really do have to show your work and you have to produce it in college.

You have to come prepared for your exam.

You know, I think where I see students sometimes struggling is that leap of of it'll be fine.

They'll let me take the exam the next day.

And it's just not like that.

Do you think your students are students first or clients first?

Oh, students first, students first.

We when I was provost not too many months ago.

Not.

Yeah, right.

We developed a whole new student thriving, framework of what it means to have students at the center of what we do and how we do it.

So we have intentional strategies, academic support strategies, psychosocial, strategies, financial strategies to really surround the student experience.

So it's been an all campus and effort, which I'm very proud of.

And we've seen record year over year fall student retention.

Do you think in higher ed sometimes in other places students are treated like clients first?

Is there a pitfall there?

Perhaps?

You know, I, I have had the privilege of always working in, private higher education.

I haven't worked in a big, system, where perhaps that that could be.

I've worked at places where your faculty and staff know your name.

In fact, commencement has always been one of my favorite days because I know the students.

And to see them at that culminating point is such a full circle moment, not just for them, but for me as well.

So, you know, I think human beings, no matter where you are, like I said earlier, like to be seen and heard and valued.

And that's what we do at Nazareth.

Let me read an email from that I got this morning before the program from C.J.

in Rochester.

C.J.

says, driving across New York State on Saturday and looking at small college towns where the college has recently closed it got me thinking, what about having skilled trades majors offered at private colleges?

A school like Union College in Schenectady benefits from having engineering combined with liberal arts, all students engineering and otherwise take the core liberal arts curriculum.

This affords engineers with a breadth they may otherwise lack and supports the entire college.

By combining skilled trades with liberal arts liberal arts, we will strengthen the colleges by opening a larger pool of applicants.

The students benefit from the breadth provided for skilled trades, and from critical reasoning and flexibility provided by the liberal arts curriculum.

Our nation benefits by having a larger segment of society more prepared for changing economic needs that siege in Rochester.

What is a great question, C.J.?

A great thought, actually.

It's almost like you're you're seeing my future ahead here.

C.J., as we are, strategically planning forward right now, I'm in the middle of my listening session across, Rochester in the region, and our fall assembly day, when faculty and staff are back, is to say, what will our students say about us for our next 100 years?

How how will we have mission and market meeting?

And so all ideas are on the table about how to strengthen both traditional teaching and learning, and perhaps a traditional, teaching and learning.

There's obviously some folks that are in this space and doing this really, really well.

So, an examination of what it would take to make that possible.

And, probable would be something we'd have to look at.

But I like the idea.

C.J., thank you very much.

Debbie emails program to say a few months ago, I wrote in regarding a similar discussion that my grandson was currently attending UB as opposed to MIT.

The cost differential is vast.

The panel indicated he should be attending MIT due to the, recognition of MIT as a better education.

My daughter has a $50,000 school loan with a $600 a month payment with a family.

Her monthly expenses include daycare.

That's a steep payment on top of those expenses.

I cannot even imagine what that payment might be on a $200,000 loan out of college.

How can we expect middle class America to pay that loan payment?

It seems only the upper echelon can afford those prestigious, prestigious schools compared to 30 to 40 years ago.

Yeah, that's a that's a really good point.

And, you know, we kind of pulled on that thread earlier today that, you know, where is that tender point of ensuring that the financial model for the institution is, is what it needs to be and that we're not, advocating access for those that want a high quality education.

You know, what I say to, to students is your higher education experience is really a lot of what you make out of it.

What is your agency to, engage in as many opportunities that you can while you're on campus and, in your classroom and things.

So, you know, that's a that's a real example.

And I appreciate that.

Dallas wants to know if you have a lot of foreign students on campus.

We don't have a lot of international students.

You know, we have perhaps about 15 to 20.

So, that's obviously a market will be interested in, growing and strengthening.

There's a lot of opportunity there.

But currently right now, that's where we are.

And he's referencing hearing some conversations, I think probably University of Rochester and other places where they've got bigger populations.

Foreign students, particularly Chinese students, are you are is it correct that we're seeing fewer Chinese students coming to the United States in this current climate?

It is.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Dallas, thank you for that.

And then, one more here, a couple from two different David's, one of the David's is just asking about why not use the your endowment to bring down costs.

So this is a great time to do endowment 101.

Again, whenever I've got a university president, we try to do that.

And I read recently that the Nazareth University endowment surpassed $100 million.

Yes.

And, you know, I mean, everything is relative.

That's a lot of money.

I think University of Rochester.

Oh, boy.

I'm going to get myself in trouble.

It's like 2 billion, 1 billion, 3 billion.

It's in there.

It's over.

It would be not the M's like yours, right?

But $100 million is is is that a good number for you?

It's a strong number and it's going to grow.

And what does it mean functionally that you can do with it.

So functionally there there are designated funds that you can take certain percentage out to be able to scholarship students.

And so getting to the question is the more we grow that number, the greater percentage we can take out and the greater percentage we can scholarship.

And so that is an absolute aim of mine, as part of my presidency, is to grow the endowment so that we can continue to offset the cost with tuition, with scholarship dollars towards tuition.

For those who hear $100 million and think of it as a bank account that you can just draw from.

Can you explain?

Yeah, it's not like that.

They are.

There's rules and regs of what you can take when you can take it.

And what the funds can be used for.

Many of those funds are designated for specific purposes.

And not just for general operating expenses per se or for, you know, general scholarship dollars.

So we work with our advancement office and our finance office to optimize those resources for our students as much as possible.

Again, so that we can have access and opportunity.

And if you're just joining us, in the first half, our President Finney mentioned that roughly 90% of your budget is paid for by tuition.

And.

Tuition and fees.

That, Nazareth University sticker price is 67 K for everything, but nobody's paying 67 K. What's the average student pay?

The average discount is between, 35 and 40% off the tuition.

Pretty remarkable.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

But everybody's getting something.

Everybody's getting something.

How come nobody's paying for boat?

Nobody, like, put their hand up like I got.

I can pay for this.

No, no.

And you'd be surprised to is sometimes even when we look at that those, you know, higher earners, family with higher income, they're usually the more savvy to ask for for more scholarship dollars.

In general, it seems like you think that you're in a pretty strong financial position compared to your peers.

C.J mentioned driving around the state and seeing occasionally driving past literally a closed school.

We've seen that.

Yeah.

Starting to happen.

Yeah.

We probably would see more if the trends continue.

Yeah.

How do you feel your position financially.

We're strong.

I mean we just we just went through our S&P rating and had a very solid, response to that.

And there is no time anymore to be casual about where you are and how you are.

There has got to be urgent innovation and action every single day on a higher education campus to ensure that you're not one of those in that story.

And so, that hasn't always been easy for higher education.

I think the idea of thinking through things completely and seeing all sides of the coin before you act, it was a way that we operated, and now we really have to say, what?

What are we going to earn and what are we going to do this year?

What is the goal and how will we measure our success?

So, you know, that is the way I've led, my whole time in higher education.

And I think people appreciate that, that, you know, you can have ideology of how things happen, but you have to get it done.

And, that's what we're going to continue to do at Nazareth so that we continue to strengthen our financial position.

When we come back from the only break this hour with the new president of Nazareth University, Maureen Finney, we're going to talk about academics at Nazareth and more about specifically how the president sees the current offerings and what might change in the future, how they're going to determine what to offer, and the kind of the feedback they're getting from students.

And there's a lot more to discuss.

I know we're going to talk a little about AI.

They teach AI there and a lot more with the president of Nassau on the other side.

Here.

Coming up in our second hour, it's the first in our connection summer sessions on the subject of how kids see a changing world.

And today we're talking about screen addiction, cell phone addiction, when's too early, how to recognize when something has gone too far.

What works and what doesn't.

And we're going to hear from a professional as well.

Doctor Michael Scharf joins the discussion.

We'll bring that back next hour.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

So we've had some folks from Nazareth, talking about artificial intelligence, some very talented people over there, who have a lot of industry experience, who are have been teaching some of your students about, not just the functionality of AI, but ethics and, and the future.

I want to set that aside for one second and ask you a different question.

Sure.

Is there an AI policy on campus related to the use of AI in cheating?

There is there is, we worked on that over the last year.

The academic leadership worked on basic, basic tenor of what I and academic integrity, how those things intersect in in reality, what happens is it's really up to the faculty member to say how much or how little of AI can be used in their course.

They set that standard in their syllabus right before this semester starts.

So I think it's upfront, honest and transparent with students.

You know, the reality is most of our students are coming from environments where they used AI before they even got to us.

Used it legitimately.

Yes, I would say I mean, you always know there's always those outliers.

And we've all seen the, you know, the articles of, you know.

Here's the headline in New York magazine from a year ago, everyone is cheating their way through college.

Overstatement, I think.

So I think this is.

A problem and I. Think it can be a problem.

Here's the skinny, you know, and I think this probably comes from my life.

Is that what I learned when I first became licensed as a PA is certainly not what I would be learning now.

Things evolve and you have to evolve with it.

And so what we've done on our campus is very intentional professional development in AI for our faculty.

What where can you use AI?

Where shouldn't you?

Should you change how you assess learning?

You know, the greatest I think struggle is the take home papers and then.

Yeah, yeah, then they run them through the systems and find that perhaps.

There's all kinds of horror stories coming.

Out now.

All of that.

Right?

Oh, yeah.

So now many faculty are now having in-class exams way back when, like I used to do with the Blue Book.

To say, what do you actually know at this point in time?

Yeah.

So I think it, it just, it really calls attention.

And we have extraordinary faculty at Nazareth to say, what is the take home message that I need to assure my students have?

And how am I going to assess that?

And in a way that's fair and in a way that is, integral to their learning process.

And then in terms of the classes themselves about AI, what does Nazareth currently offer?

So we have, 3 or 4 undergraduate majors that have AI inter intertwined.

We have a master's in business analytics and AI.

We have the responsible, ethical AI Institute, which infuses professional development learning across our campus.

You know, I think it's like anything, I think if you were to do a snapshot or cross-section of culture on campus, we have a cross-section of folks that love AI and think that it is, a significant tool and should be utilized even more heavily.

And then we certainly have a cross-section of folks that that don't feel that way.

And so it's like anything, right?

If you want to bring people into the fold, it's just continuing to educate the why of the work.

Which cross section would you be in?

Oh, I believe there's value in AI.

I, I think the opportunity is to say that and then to articulate why human interaction with AI is so important.

So how am I going to take that body of knowledge from AI and then use my brain to articulate the critical analysis that I took from it?

I think that's where we're missing is these series of absolutes of have and have not.

We as an institution are going to show the intersection.

And our students asking for that.

I imagine they are.

They are, yeah, they are, they are asking for it.

I think what they have, what they've asked for, and what the faculty worked so hard on last year is a policy of saying, you know, some students are like, I didn't know I couldn't use this, or I thought this was okay to use, and now we're all just trying to get to a same sense of literacy, of what does it mean on our campus?

Yeah, I mean, the bigger picture with AI that unnerves me.

I mean, it's a lot of things, but one of them is that to your point about how tools are used, we could be doing extraordinary things as human beings to gain better understanding of any number of skills, bases of knowledge.

We could be smarter than we've ever been.

But I think most of us are going, oh, cool.

Something that thinks for me, and I don't have to, and, you know, we've talked a couple times in this program about a recent piece in The Atlantic about the the society wide change in reading.

That number one, there are students showing up in college campuses saying, like, read a whole book.

I don't have to read books in high school or, that most Americans are not reading for pleasure or not reading books for pleasure anymore.

Haven't read a book in the last year.

And so we're reading shorter.

We're reading a lot, but it's all short.

It is without depth or complexity, and the complexity is what changed.

Literally, our ability to function with our brains and the kind of level up is that kids would say, yeah, and we're going to level down with it.

Let's hope not.

So I think this really leans into the import of liberal arts and sciences.

Sure.

Like this is the value statement of certainly I could be a tool, but it will never replace our ability to have this higher level integrated thinking and learning.

And that's what we need.

That's what the society needs.

So it's the and that I think our campus is really embracing.

When it comes to other academic pursuits.

Now I mean, you talked about, you know, your own background as a PA and what you are already bringing to campus and a vision for what you can offer.

Is that because you feel like whether it's nursing or related jobs, those are going to be stable no matter what happens in sort of an AI future?

Yes.

I think, you know, the nature of the work may change a little bit.

But it's a human connector field.

And, all of those that I, that I referenced earlier, PA and social work are human connector fields.

And so that's an absolute opportunity.

Our PA program had a waitlist, last year.

And that's not unheard of across the country.

So we know we're going to need a health care workforce that's meeting this aging demographic.

And so to really lean in on that is is important.

The other opportunity for Nazareth that I'm hopeful will come out of our strategic planning discussions is there's about 41 million Americans, across the U.S who have some college but no degree.

So they made some investment in their education at some point in time, but didn't leave with the credential.

So what are we at Nazareth doing to meet that adult learner market that takes the demographic cliff or decline equation?

It puts it aside a little bit to say, but we have this other market.

And so I'm hopeful that will come out of our strategic planning process of what undergraduate programs and majors should we be devising.

And crafting specifically for that market, to know that those learners need adaptability, flexibility online?

Like what does that look like and how do we make it a distinctly Nazareth experience?

Are there going to be some majors that are just going by the wayside?

I mean, when I was in school, I had a to I didn't have a minor.

I had two specializations and one of them was Spanish.

And for those who are I'm an Italian major, I'm a French major.

Do you need to do that anymore?

I mean, with with what technology is doing.

Are those going away?

No, not definitely not.

At Nazareth.

We have a robust, foreign language culture department.

And that's not changing.

That's not.

Shrinking.

No, I mean, traditional enrollments might be shrinking, but the way we've pivoted, and I have to give credit here to the leadership that that's done, this is we've made it more about the cultural intersection, and strengthening the cultural influences in our region.

And Italian and French, Spanish.

So we have a lot of community level programing that happens on our campus, and we bring our community partners to campus.

So the traditional major, I understand what you're saying, and, I think there's opportunity here.

Again, I think it gets back to something I said earlier is the series of absolutes doesn't work.

What should work is us creating the opportunity and articulating the why.

And if we believe that foreign languages are important, we should show the why of that work.

Talking to President Maureen Finney of Nazareth University.

And so let's make sure we do also explain.

We've talked a couple times about the enrollment cliff and the the general way I would describe that is around the financial collapse of 2007, 2008 for a lot of different reasons, sometimes just family stability and, and all of those factors.

Americans started having fewer babies.

Now that generation would be graduating high school, going to college, but there's fewer of them.

Yes.

And so there's fewer students to even apply for college.

And there's pressure on colleges because your incoming classes are going to be smaller.

Is that generally true?

Yeah.

That's true.

That's a true.

Story.

That's a true story, especially in the northeast, you know, not every region of the country is experiencing the decline like the northeast is.

But we have an enormous amount of higher education institutions.

And demographically, we have seen, a significant decline.

So it makes the whole mission, market value proposition discussion even more important because it's a competitive field.

Students now, not like, you know, way back when when you applied to 3 or 4 schools, they're applying to 12 or 15.

So, you know, you're happy to see the application number come in, but you're like, are they really committed to this, to this institution?

So we've had to be very intentional early and often about connecting with sophomores in high school, juniors in high school, even freshman eighth graders to start building the narrative of why Nazareth?

Because if you wait until their senior year, it's too late.

And how much do you think we will see other institutions closed because of this problem?

Do you think the closures are mostly done, or could there be more coming?

I think, you know, looking at the some of the trend data, I do think there may be more coming.

What I'm hopeful is and higher education hasn't always been known for this is urgency and action.

I think, you know, when you see a trend occurring, it's incumbent upon the leadership team to act in a way that protects and strengthens the institution.

So, we are laser focused at Nazareth on that, that we I have a huge responsibility as the president of ensuring a thriving future for that amazing institution.

And it never, never wanes at me.

I am always remembering of that.

I had some emails here.

Jack wants to know.

Jack says his perspective is he thinks the Trump administration is hostile to to higher ed and wants to know if this new law about ROI is related to trying to get more higher ed, either squeezed or closed.

What do you think?

Thanks, Jack.

So I would say that, you know, the the new legislation that's come down has definitely put higher education on its heels, in a way that perhaps we haven't been before.

It certainly would be nice to be part of the conversation.

When these initiatives or acts come down to say, what are you really looking at?

Why is why is this so important to be part of the solution versus being reactive to to the act?

So I can see why, Jack, why Jack would think that.

And, a glass three quarters full gal that institutions like Nazareth have a good story to tell, so we're ready to tell it.

I think there are some institutions, and I think maybe Nazareth was here at one point where we take our, you know, humble humility really well.

We can't anymore.

We have to say what the value is.

And I'm okay with doing that.

And I, you know, I hope there can be just continued collegiality across the aisles.

Okay.

And I probably should have explained to Jack or at least have President Feeney explain a little bit.

So if you heard earlier this hour, President Feeney describing this new is it a law?

It's an act.

It's an act from from this administration saying essentially, if you are offering a major, you have to show there is an ROI for those graduates.

They are earning more than just an average high school.

Student, correct.

Over a three year period.

They're going to look at three years of data.

Okay.

But here's the part we didn't get to or what.

Or then the title for funding will be lost for that degree.

So what is that.

That's the students ability to take out federal loans.

So not closing you down.

They're not projecting.

So you're using this to go after you and close.

You know it'll but they will if you don't have the data that supports the ROI of that degree over a three year period.

So it's not even over a one year period.

They're looking at three years of data with the institution supplies.

Then they would they could restrict your funding.

Okay.

Here.

Jack, I hope that settles that there.

And a couple of follow ups from Dallas.

He's wanted to know directly if there has been cheating on campus with AI and Nazareth.

I mean, I think you said that you don't think it's a big problem.

I don't think it's a big problem.

You know, I because I'm not in the directly in the loop.

I can't say definitively if it is or isn't, what I, what I can say is that the faculty are very attuned to this issue, and, they work with students to ensure that the students understand the expectations of the course where we fell.

I think last year, short a little bit, or maybe the year prior, was when students will come to us and say, I didn't know I couldn't do that.

Well, now they know.

And so they know each each syllabus has their statement on it, whether they can or cannot use it.

So it's like anything Dallas, I think probably there's probably margins perhaps of intellectual, integrity issues, but it's not a preponderance at Nazareth campus.

And he's pointing out I did not see this.

I'm I'm going to trust him.

His fact check on this, because we talked a couple weeks ago about the fact that a high school in Salamanca was getting ready to use an AI humanoid robot in a classroom.

However, Dallas says that's been canceled at Salamanca, so we're going to find out if that's true.

But, the question is, is Nazareth going to get AI humanoid professors or teachers?

That is not on the strategic plan?

Teaching assistants.

Okay?

I mean, listen, you can do what you want to do.

But I'm glad to hear that.

Yes, I think humans should still be teaching.

Yeah, I do.

And hold is what we're being told.

So that is on hold.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's that's a it's a whole interesting other thing here.

And so maybe let's close with this year.

We've, we've covered a lot here and you do.

Right that you want to be a presidency of many that, you know, you are you really want to sort of draw on your entire campus to be a good leader?

Yes.

What does a good leader look like at higher ed in 2026?

Yeah, I think innovation, action, transparency, communicating the good and communicating the not so good so that the community is brought along with you on the journey, strengthening the endowment, diversifying revenue, supporting the student experience holistically.

Those are my aims.

And I think while I'm thrilled to be called the president, it is such a deep honor that I'm in this position because I really value what we do on our campus and the extraordinary colleagues that I have in faculty administration and staff.

It really is second to none.

And I'm just so thrilled to be here.

In our last minute.

Describe what you think is probably the biggest challenge that you have, that maybe a university president, when you were going to school didn't have.

I would say the dependency on tuition is certainly a challenge.

I, I don't know what the business model was way back when, when I was in undergrad.

But knowing that every single student matters not just from an ethical standpoint because of course they do, but from a financial standpoint that is the fulcrum of several meetings, a week of how are we supporting the student experience and how can we further strengthen the institution.

And however long your tenure is, when you are done on your last day, you will you will say, I will measure my success.

By what?

By knowing that Nazareth is a thriving higher education institution with national recognition.

National recognition?

Correct.

You're putting a stamp down on that?

Yeah.

Okay.

Doing it.

Will you come back some time?

I would love to.

Thank you.

In terms in terms of higher education, there's always something to talk about and there's a lot changing.

And I will say that Nazareth University is staffed by people in the Commerce Department.

They're incredibly, well, responsive.

And there's a lot of schools like that.

But you're here.

So I will just say to your team, thank you.

Yes, mate.

Have a great.

Team.

And let's let's continue to have this conversation with not only you but your tremendous staff.

I would love.

That.

Thank you.

Very much.

President Maureen Finney of Nazareth University, more connections coming up in a moment.

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