>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made with a bright smile and a joyful disposition.

Teen empowerment is an organization on Genesee Street that works with young people to help create peace, equity and justice in the community.

And the first person that those teens see when they walk in the door is a man named Jerrard Brown.

The person with that bright smile, with that joyful disposition.

From what we've heard from people from different walks of his life, Jerrard Brown is a leader.

He's a role model, he's a friend.

And through his work at the office, as the office and facilities manager for teen empowerment and also the youngest ever senior pastor at Holy Trinity Baptist Church on North Street, he has built community and served as a mentor, especially for young people who need it.

As he told WXXI, Racquel Stephen, he said, I think the pastor should be the homie.

This hour, we continue our spotlight on black community members whose work might be under the radar a bit, but you should know about.

It's making a difference.

It's a series from WXXI Racquel Stephen.

She is unable to join us this hour, but you can find her work on our website where she introduces us to Pastor Jerrard Brown, who joins us now in studio.

Pastor, it's great to have you.

Welcome to the program.

>> Thank you.

It's good to be here.

>> And welcome to Sahiyra Dillard, who is program Coordinator at Teen Empowerment.

Welcome.

Nice to see you.

>> Hello.

Thank you for having me.

>> So I'm going to ask Tara first when people say, what is teen empowerment?

What do you do over there?

What is it?

>> Teen empowerment is a youth led organization.

We try to pair the youth with adults.

we're very neighborhood based, neighbor oriented.

we believe in trying to spread peace, justice and equity within our communities.

And that's our our motto, our task.

>> We've really appreciated the conversations with T throughout the years, and this is a great chance to kind of drill into it a little bit, but I want to go back with Pastor Brown first to a little bit of your upbringing, upbringing.

You grew up in Rochester.

I did okay, and you've said that you understand a lot of what teens today that you work with are going through.

So why don't you tell us about your childhood first?

>> Yeah.

So I grew up on the East side, which is off of Hudson Avenue, Bernard Street.

It was a rough neighborhood.

same in any other neighborhood for those youth who are marginalized or from marginalized communities.

We had food pantries.

There were drugs, alcohol, people on the streets, violence.

anything you can think of was there for me, it was being a black boy in a neighborhood full of black boys and girls.

And the only time we saw any other race come through was policing, was to come and tell us that we were wrong, or to try to fix something that probably we didn't think was broken.

And so not only did I grow up in that neighborhood, then also my upbringing is a single family, a single parent household that left very early, drugs and and robbery.

He in and out of jail and things of that nature.

and so we come from where I come from a place where I understand the kids that we serve.

Now.

>> What's your first memory of your father?

>> Abuse.

the first memory that I could think of was hiding from my dad for five hours.

And how old were you?

I was five years old.

Five years old?

I was hiding from him because I knew he wanted to whip me.

I made a mistake.

I walked in, I'm a triplet.

I walked in on my twin sister who had just got out the bathtub.

She was naked.

It was an accident.

I walked in and I was like.

And he saw that as something intentional.

So he wanted to whip me for it.

So I hid under the bed for five hours.

He could have just dragged me out, but lazy.

So I stayed under there.

He called me out.

I did not go out.

He decided to not go to work that day.

My older brother, who was seven years older, called me and said, hey that's what they used to call me.

Rock.

Come on out.

Dad is gone to work.

Get some dinner, get something to eat, and now and then go back under.

So when he comes home, he'll be safe.

I got from under the bed.

I'm walking towards the kitchen and you have to pass the bathroom.

My dad swings open the bathroom door and I thought I was going to die.

It was so bad.

I still have the I still have marks.

From that moment of five years old on my body.

he beat me so bad.

And I think that set the trajectory for our relationship.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> Yeah.

>> When did he leave?

How old were you?

>> so he was in and out between the ages of five, six, seven.

But I believe I was nine when he finally, when my mom decided that.

Okay, enough is enough.

Don't come back.

I it wasn't in my.

It wasn't until I was in my 30s, late 30s that I learned that they divorced because my mom wanted to protect her children.

Wasn't that she just hated my dad, but she wanted to save us.

And she saw the abuse.

>> And do you have did you have any more contact with him over the years?

>> Oh, yeah.

We're good now.

we've talked.

I've forgiven him, I love him, I look out for him.

I wrote a book called more Grace, and he knew he was in there, so it's like, I hope he didn't do me too bad in that book, and I didn't but I definitely shared my reality in that book concerning my relationship with my dad.

>> When did you get to a point where you could forgive him and you could build a relationship with him?

>> It was my relationship with Christ.

it really started with having a real relationship with a higher power for me.

And then someone told me one day he said, you know, your dad was sick.

You know, my dad was an addict.

He was a drug addict.

And so because of his disease, he couldn't express how much he loved you.

And so those expressions came out through abuse.

And I think understanding addiction, understanding, abuse a little more helped me to have more grace for my father.

And then I see it as God protecting me.

Have my dad raised me?

I don't think I would be who I am today, so thank God he didn't because it would have been drugs, alcohol, ladies, influences, violence, violence.

Very violent.

he was fighting his brothers, his sisters, anybody that came through, you know.

But mom got us free.

Then she moved grandma in, and grandma introduced us to Jesus and made us go to church and kept ordering our lives.

And my mom, she was the best mom ever to just cultivate us and let us be whoever we want it to be.

>> I want to close the loop on your dad's story, and then I want to.

I want to ask you about going to church in those early years, because it's hard to convince some kids to to go to church, as you know.

You know, they don't all have a pastor like you.

Yeah.

but I, I find the grace that you're showing really, really powerful.

You're acknowledging your belief that your father was sick, that that wasn't necessarily a representation of whether he loved you or not.

I have to think, though, when you're five, when you're six, when you're seven years old, did you feel like my dad doesn't love me?

>> I thought he hated me.

>> I thought he hated you.

>> again, I'm a triplet, and I felt like he treated me different.

>> And I did.

I didn't know why.

I didn't know what I did.

You know, it's kind of like you don't ask to be here, you know?

Like I didn't ask to be born.

And then we're.

We're the same age.

But you love your daughter.

You love your son.

You know, at the age of 12, I remember him bringing them money.

And he's like, I'll bring yours back, you know, because I don't have it all.

So he gave my brother $50.

He gave my sister $50, and he said, I'll bring yours back.

And he I'm still waiting for him to bring me back mine.

You know.

and so, yeah, I thought he hated my guts, you know, and it wasn't until actually last year that I heard my dad tell me he loved me, you know, and that he was proud of me.

After all the years of pastoring and getting awards and finishing school and finishing college and getting married, having kids, and for the first time to hear that, hey, I absolutely love you, you know?

And no, he means it.

It meant the world to me.

And and some people say, well, maybe it was too late.

I think it was right on time.

>> I was going to ask you exactly that.

Yeah.

If if for you, it's not too late.

Do you talk to men in this community and tell them whatever has happened?

Past is past and it's never too late?

>> Absolutely.

Again.

And that's what, you know, not to promote my book, but that's what my book.

promote your book, pastor.

Go ahead.

It's on Amazon.

but that's what more grace.

What's it called?

More grace.

More grace.

It's called more grace.

the the extended version or the expanded version?

and that's what it's about.

It's about it's never too late to reconcile.

It's never too late to heal.

It's never too late to forgive.

Had I not forgave him, I think I would have been a replica of him.

a lot of times, even in my marriage, I felt like I was repeating some of his behaviors in my own marriage.

just just innately, you know, thinking that I want to be so far removed from who he is that I am going to be better.

And instead, I became his twin, you know, and it took my wife to kind of acknowledge that.

I know you're trying to be different, but you're no different.

>> You weren't violent, were you?

>> Wasn't violent.

wasn't violent physically.

Violent emotionally.

Because you could be emotionally abusive.

neglect could be a form of abuse, you know, and high minded.

And pride could be a form of abuse.

And so I had to address those areas that I didn't like in him to make sure I wasn't repeating those behaviors.

And I think the first step was forgiving him, saying, he's just a man.

He's flawed, he isn't perfect, but he's what God gave me.

And so there was something about him that I needed in my DNA to be who I am today.

For other people.

>> A lot has been written and said about the need for kids to grow up knowing that they're loved, knowing that they're cared about t over the years.

And we'll talk about this later in the program.

We know T has stepped in in amazing ways for kids all across our community for a long time and in different ways.

Building opportunity, paying people for work, you know, honoring their work.

listening to kids voices when kids don't feel listened to, but also sometimes just providing love and mentorship.

So I'm not inventing the wheel with this question, but your story is so remarkable to me, and you tell it in a way that is very blunt and open.

I mean, I know you've been doing this for a while.

>> Yeah.

>> How important is it for us to have a community where, you know, parents stay together, parents get divorced, parents split up, but parents find a way to say to their kids, wherever I am, I'm going to be with you.

Yeah, I'm going to be involved with you.

I'm going to love you.

How do we get to a better place there?

>> One of the things that I address in the ministry that I serve, not only are we coworkers and she's a program coordinator, but she's also a member of my church.

but one of the things that we try to teach is that there are some people who don't have a choice, and that's the seeds that are brought into the world.

They don't have a choice on who their parents are.

It's not like they could be like, hey, I want you to be my mom and you to be my dad.

You know while I am a very proud black man, if I had a choice, I would have come as a white man because of the the privilege that comes with being a different race.

whereas I wouldn't have been 15 with five cops.

Guns held up at me because I'm standing on the corner waiting for my sister to get off the bus, and they frisk me.

They say, put your hands on the wall.

They got guns pointed.

And I'm like, I just started preaching.

Like, because you're a 15 year old, 15 year old black boy with a.

>> Hood standing on.

>> The corner, standing on the corner of Hudson and Bernard.

>> Couldn't have been doing it for a good reason.

>> When they were done, there was no sorry.

There was no.

We we apologized.

We were wrong.

Simply.

You look like someone we were looking for.

Simply put, I think it's important that children know that they do have a mom and a dad.

Because if they don't those streets will start parenting them.

I'll always say the drug lords are better at discipling people than the church because they know how to make you feel loved, make you feel seen, make you feel appreciated, make you feel protected.

Whereas in the church, we're all trying to get to this God ourself and we're leaving the community out.

We're all trying to like, get to heaven.

No one's like, let me disciple you and let me help you.

Let me love you, you know?

And I think had that dynamic been in my life early with both parents, even though you all are broken up, you don't divorce your children, you divorce each other.

I think I would be a little further along, but again, I'm grateful for the journey for where I am now.

But I know I would be further along because I have more confidence.

I would have the sense of protection that I didn't have.

So I feel like I've, I've protected myself a lot, even though my mom was like a mama bear.

She just, no matter what, she'll lift a truck for her babies.

It doesn't matter, you know?

but to have the protection of my father, it would have been different.

And I would not have leaned on other people to try to replace him, which I did very often as well.

Men, mentors and things of that nature.

>> So one other question on some of that dynamic in our community.

And then we're going to talk more about the work that you're doing now that my colleague Racquel Stephen has highlighted as part of her month long series, we're talking to Senior Pastor Jerrard Brown from Holy Trinity Baptist Church, and Sahiyra Dillard is also here.

Both Sahara and Gerard work for teen Empowerment, an organization that we know well and has been doing really important work in this city for a long time.

Tomorrow, Rock the future releases its annual State of Our Children report card, and they were on this program a week ago previewing that, and we had a chance to see it in advance.

And what there's a lot of things that stood out to me.

But what maybe struck me the most, Gerard was.

A generation ago, this wasn't the case.

But now young girls in Rochester are doing better than boys on most subject scores.

Graduation and plans to go to college again.

I don't want to make this seem like the only future you got is if you go to college, and if not, you're.

I mean, there's a lot of different ways to build a future.

We know that.

But the disparity in the last year where there was full data, something like 31, 32% of of Rochester RCSD girls were going to college when they graduated, 9% of boys.

It was incredible.

The disparity.

And some of them are going to go to the trades, some will have other work, but everybody was concerned sitting at the table looking at that, going like, whoa, so what is it?

I don't know if it's post-pandemic.

If the pandemic hit boys harder, I don't know what's going on.

But in general, boys are adrift.

They're struggling in surveys in this city.

You talk to boys, you've heard it.

They say they don't really see a future.

What's going on?

>> I think boys are growing up too fast.

I feel like they've become a people that we got to.

We got to be the dads now.

We got to be the protectors.

We got to protect our hood.

Too young, way too young.

You know?

We got to go get that money.

You know, we see mom working her butt off to provide for us and our siblings.

And so while she's at work, let's go flip something, you know, and I know, you know, we look at, you know, the selling of drugs and our young people with guns and things of that nature, but we don't see what's beneath it all, what's beneath the violence.

Right.

It's not I hate I even hate the term black on black crime.

You know, it's crime.

Proximity like it's we're here.

We're all impoverished, we're all marginalized, and we're all trying to figure it out.

And so now you have young boys who are like, I got to protect my house.

I got to make sure I get that money.

I ain't got time for school.

I don't have time for college.

I don't have time for any.

I don't even have time for a legit job.

I need to get the money as quick as possible.

And then you have moms who don't know what's going on, but they secretly want the help, and so they don't know how to tell their children be children, be a boy, be a child, go do a sport.

No, I kind of low key do need you to do something and just don't tell me about it until that boy gets hurt, until one of them is killed.

Now you're crying because you missed the opportunity to tell him.

I don't need you to be my husband.

My protector, but my son and I believe our black boys are not allowed to be sons.

And I believe our neighborhoods have become a bunch of have been become filled with young men who feel the responsibility, but they don't know how to go about it.

>> And I can't ask you to come up with every perfect answer, but what would start to change that?

What does this city what does what do our kids need?

>> A restoration of black families.

I think it's not just a restoration of black families, but affirming resources.

You know, you say one thing, but it's a it's a multiplicity of things.

We need resources.

We need more teachers in school who don't mind taking time to work with a 15 year old reading at a third grade level.

We need college to not be so far and so expensive.

I just graduated with my bachelor's degree in leadership, and I'm like, $52,000 in the hole, you know, like it is.

It is become the hardest thing to be successful.

And the only time we see people successfully make it is if they don't look like us and our parents or their parents, our friends, parents who knew to save money early on, who knew who to put up money in a savings account and in a trust.

So when it's time for college, y'all just take that money and you go do that.

We don't have that literacy.

We don't have proper financial literacy.

We don't know what it means to save because we don't have enough to save.

We got to pay the rent.

We got to eat, you know?

And so I think resources I think that being available and then proper schooling, proper affirmation and I just think it has to start there because after you get a broken family, we're here now.

You know, I grew up, most of my friends did not have both of their parents in the house, either.

One parent died or one parent just decided it wasn't a good idea to be here anymore, you know?

And so and that wasn't just in the black, because most of my friends growing up were Caucasian.

So they were.

But they had a different experience from those in a single black family household.

>> So Sahara, you go to Holy Trinity Baptist Church.

>> Yes.

>> What is it like seeing this man in the pulpit?

>> It is very, very interesting.

I think what people love most about him as a pastor is that he doesn't create this hierarchy in his church, like when I read the the post that said the article that said, homie, I'm like, he is quite literally a homie pastor.

And I think it's because of just how transparent he is with the way that he preach.

It's not like a looking down on you.

It's not a this is right or wrong.

It's a I've been through this myself, so I can tell you firsthand that this is the right direction and that is that's a true gift.

>> Pastor, I'm looking at a picture on YouTube here.

If you're watching on the WXXI News YouTube channel, we just had a picture, Pastor Brown up there.

There he is, there he is.

You you got some serious threads on a Sunday, I guess.

Do you believe in dressing up for church?

>> Not every Sunday.

>> Not every.

>> Sunday, not every Sunday.

since moving to Holy Trinity, we dress up more than we did.

We were the ripped jeans, skinny jeans, church for a while, for about 6 or 7 years, maybe.

we just showed up in T-shirts and hats.

>> What's wrong with that?

>> Nothing.

You know, I think when I decided, well, when I got accepted as pastor of Holy Trinity, which is a traditional Baptist church, my heart was to unite cultures.

And when I say unite cultures, this free, non-denominational, non-denominational culture with the Baptist culture bringing them together was not easy at all because you have your seasoned.

I won't call them old, but you have your seasoned people who need order.

They need church to look a certain way.

And then you have this new generational church who wants loud music and comfortability and, and freelancing and, and so one of the strategies that we came up with and I say we because my wife was very instrumental in helping as well.

Is that okay?

On this Sunday, we're going to all dress down.

On this Sunday, we're all dressed up.

On this Sunday we'll be senior citizens.

Sunday on this Sunday will be Youth Sunday.

and what has happened now is our senior citizens are coming in dressed down and they're comfortable.

They're wearing T-shirts and jeans.

Whereas in they wasn't doing that at all, you know, and one we call them mothers.

One mother is in her 80s.

She came up to me and she's just like, we're free, but we're covered.

And that's because you came your leadership feels freeing because I didn't want to be.

I didn't want to be their father.

I didn't want to be their tyrant.

I want to partner with them and let's do it together to build something that hasn't been built before.

>> I want to ask you a couple more quick questions.

this is a congregation, by the way.

His congregation is more than tripled.

>> Yeah, yeah, that's.

>> You understand what's going on in congregations across the country?

>> They're dwindling.

>> Yeah.

It's not easy.

You're hearing some of why, but everything from Raquel's reporting indicates it certainly hasn't always been easy, that there have been spaces that you have been and some other, maybe other church leaders, other spaces, maybe some of your own.

thought he's too revolutionary.

He's too firebrand.

he's too.

This is too that you've you've experienced some of that, haven't you?

>> At the church I'm pastoring.

I actually kind of all but got kicked out of it at 19 years old.

So this church I was raised in and I was just as radical I had more advancement.

Well, I would say my eyes were open more because I went off to a Bible college in Columbus, Ohio, and then I was a part of every singing group here.

Just.

I can't sing, but I just liked the music.

So I'm gonna join this choir, and I'm going to be a part of this event.

But then I would take it back to Holy Trinity, and it was too much for them.

The dancing, the singing, the shouting, the what we call speaking in a holy language, speaking in tongues.

it was way too much.

And it wasn't accepted.

It wasn't appreciated.

So at 19, which I got married at 19 and about three months after I got married, I told my wife, this is going to be our last Sunday, but I didn't tell her the right way.

I told her it was going to be our last Sunday in front of everyone else.

After after praying and singing, I had led praise and worship.

I'm drenched.

I'm singing.

I'm like, God, you're so awesome.

And I opened my eyes and the whole church is looking at me.

I said, oh, this is my last Sunday.

I got up during the announcements and said, I just want to say, this is my last Sunday here and my wife is pregnant.

Have a good day.

It was the worst exit ever.

19 years old.

>> Well, listen, we all do things.

>> Oh, I regret it, I regret it, I regretted it every every church I went to.

Not that they were awful experiences, but I realized that the pastor that I had of my childhood was the absolute best pastor for me.

the others were great.

They served their purpose.

I loved them to this very day.

But what God wanted from me, it was there.

But I was a hothead and I was a revolutionary.

And so when it was time to decide if they would bring me back in, they brought that up like, hey, you left us.

I was 19, I probably shouldn't even got married at 19.

Who was watching me?

Who was taking care of me?

but I had to apologize for that, because now the people that I thought were awful are now the people I'm responsible for.

>> So.

But there's something that you do in just half an hour.

I can see something that you do that I think is truly extraordinary.

And I want to ask Sarah about this, too.

You model a humility and accountability that can be really tough.

You talk about pride.

and you've gone through so much in your life.

You told Raquel that there were days, of course, when you were growing up, that you wanted to be anywhere else, that you wanted a different life, that you wanted a better life, that you wanted to get away from abuse.

But you look back now and you say, at least I can relate in very authentic ways to kids who are hurting in that same way.

Yeah, they don't have to question it.

They know that you've been there.

So you see the the value and the pain that you suffered.

>> Absolutely.

>> And you could use this, all this pain in a way to build up this pride and this mass.

But you're accountable.

You're willing to say, I made a mistake, you're willing to say I hurt somebody or I shouldn't have done it this way.

I don't know where that comes from, but I think that is tremendously healthy.

>> I don't know where it comes from either.

And when when I was able to do it, it was the most freeing thing ever.

I remember calling someone who left our church.

I called them like a couple of years later and was just like, you know, I was a new pastor and I dropped you, you know, and I made you feel like you were disposable because of my own.

Whatever.

Because I'm trying to build and I'm this powerhouse, and I can't be more powerful than the people that I'm partnered with.

And if they're not growing, if I'm not growing, they're not growing, then we're not doing something right.

And it was that moment where I learned that humility and accountability is actually freeing, but it's freeing to people who are no longer in bondage, you know?

And for me, I realized that his it was good.

There's a scripture that says it was good that I was afflicted.

I'm glad I went through what I went through.

I'm glad I had my first 40 ounce at nine years old.

I'm glad about.

nine years old, nine years old.

My older brother was having a party, and he didn't want us to tell our mom.

So the barter was get us a 40 ounce from the corner store and we'll be quiet.

And so we each had our own 40 ounce.

While he played spades and did whatever he wanted to do, you know?

So I'm glad that happened.

I'm I'm glad that I wasn't raised up in the church.

Right.

Even though I was raised in church, I wasn't raised up in the church.

Sundays used to be party days for our household.

once grandma moved in, we started going.

But still we had a balance.

We had a healthy balance of what family is.

So it's not like we wasted family time in church.

My mom made us know that we were important.

Family is important.

That grounded me for church, you know, that grounded me for my faith.

At some point, we were the kids were the only ones going to church.

My brother and sister and I, we would walk in our church that I'm pastoring now was three miles from our home.

We would walk from our home to church on some Sundays.

On some Saturdays for rehearsals.

We were walking from Sunday school.

Finally, a minister saw us walking every Sunday.

He's like, why are you guys walking to Sunday school?

We want to be there.

And so I believe there was a deposit that was dropped in us.

that wasn't innate to our actual upbringing.

That shifted us.

And I think the humility comes from anybody could have been in this position.

Anybody could have had a hard way to come up.

You just never, ever know.

>> Sahara, you talked about hierarchy.

You talk about establishing the way that some churches make you feel like you're far away, that you're far below and you know you're far removed from a pastor, a church leadership.

Or you can do it the way that Pastor Brown does, which is to make you feel like that hierarchy doesn't exist.

Like that is true community.

There's true equality.

and is is that humility again?

I mean, this is someone who is very confident.

He's very bold, he's very brash.

very I can see it in half an hour here.

But I also hear someone who can say, I'm sorry, who can say I did wrong.

What does that mean for you?

As part of a congregation, to know that the pastor doesn't think he's perfect.

>> It means a lot because it lets us know that he's trustworthy in that position.

It lets us know that he won't like, you know, he's not as rebellious as that 19 year old was.

So.

>> God, no.

>> It it makes us comfortable in the space.

And it also makes us be able to be vulnerable as well.

It doesn't make us want to feel like, isolated or feel like what we've done was so wrong that we can't come out because the entire point of a church is to be able to say, I did something wrong and I need help.

And so if I cannot do that, and if I am not comfortable in the church, then what is the reasoning to have a belief at all?

You know what I mean?

you're supposed to grow.

You're supposed to make those mistakes and repent.

pray about it and see what it is that where you can go from there.

And I think him having that humility and him knowing that he is not God is a huge thing inside of a church.

>> Now, you're how old now?

>> Sahara 1919.

>> You see, you're the same age when he.

>> Was.

>> So you're 19 years old.

But but, you know, you could do a lot of things with your time.

And a lot of people are choosing not to go to church.

Why do you think people have drifted away from church community?

>> I think people have drifted away from the church community because of how huge of a judgment space it's become.

like, you know, just for instance, with the LGBTQ community, it's like the moment somebody walks in, why are you here?

We don't want you here.

if you're gay, you're going to hell.

But it's like, that's not your position or your place.

You're our only job is to bring.

We're supposed to bring them in.

We're supposed to love them and let them be who they are.

And people do not have that in all places.

And I think that that is the exact reason people drift away is because of the judgment that is in there, and because of people feeling like they're better than someone else, because they think that they're perfect.

>> Yeah.

>> Do we have that cut from Canter Mitcham?

Do we have that?

Let's listen to that first one from so Chantelle Mitcham, who you've heard on this program is associate pastor at Holy Trinity and director of programs at Teen Empowerment.

And she told our Racquel Stephen that Gerrard will leave the pulpit and worship on the floor with the people.

Let's listen.

>> He eliminated just so organically this divide between church leadership and the congregation.

>> Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly what you're talking about, isn't it?

>> Yes.

>> That's it.

So this is the remarkable story of Pastor Jerrard Brown.

Sahiyra Dillard is with us.

They both work for teen empowerment.

We're going to be in the weeks to come talking about some big, big news at t. new space, a lot, lot going on.

But after we take our break here, we're going to talk a little bit more about what that work looks like in the community and maybe how what we've been talking about in this first half hour dovetails with that.

So let's take that break.

We'll come right back on Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Thursday on the next Connections, we continue our breakdown of the state of the Union address.

We've got a lot of email already, and if you have offered your feedback, you're going to hear it on the air.

On Thursday, we're going to discuss more of the issues that the president raised.

We'll talk about what you think, and we're going to hear from some local Republicans as well.

That's coming up Thursday on Connections.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson during our brief break, Sara was telling us just a little story that I think the listeners should hear.

>> Go ahead.

>> Yes.

So Pastor Gerard Apostle was asked to be a guest speaker at a church, which my fiancee's mother attends.

And right after service, she called and she says, oh my gosh, I love your pastor.

He is just so real.

He was up there telling it all.

I said, That's Gerard for.

>> You.

>> But you weren't surprised.

>> Not at all.

That is definitely his character.

And again, that's what the people love about him.

That's what the congregation loves, is that he's very just open and honest.

And it's beautiful.

>> So, Sara, when did you start at te teen empowerment?

>> I started at teen empowerment when I was 14 years old.

just able to get a job.

So I've been here for quite some time now.

I've actually grown through something we like to call the leadership ladder.

so starting out as a youth organizer, growing to a youth history ambassador, working throughout the summer with the Clarissa Uprooted Project, becoming a research assistant, working with Janelle who had her own business called On the Ground Research, then becoming an associate program coordinator and now a full time program coordinator for the Northside site that just recently opened up.

>> And doing very well, by the way.

>> Thank you very well.

>> And so five years, it feels like a long time to you.

>> Yes.

>> what did it mean to you as a 14 year old?

What do you remember most about T when you started out?

>> well, at that time, that was actually during the Covid time.

So that was a pretty rough time for everyone.

being isolated, being inside the home.

And so when the opportunity came, it was like, oh, Covid, is this still going to happen?

And they made it happen.

And I think that's what I remember most, is them not letting the things in the world like, affect the work that's needed and them still finding a way to make it work.

And me actually getting the job, which what I love most, actually, is when you do get the job, they show up to your home and it's like the most beautiful thing ever.

It's just like, oh, I'm surprised, you know?

And it just makes you feel so good about yourself.

And so being a part of an organization like this at that specific time meant a lot for me, because it gave me something to do.

It gave me a reason to put a smile on my face, and it was just something so amazing.

>> What did the pandemic do to I mean, you were 13 when the pandemic hit.

What did that do to your social connection, your schooling?

What what would you say was the effect of it?

>> I would say the biggest effect for me is simply not knowing how to interact anymore.

when the hybrid schooling started where that was, we go in two days out the week and then zoom for the rest.

It was just like a everyone is literally to themselves.

We have our mask on, we're walking straight to class and that's it.

There's literally no human interaction.

And I think that was the biggest effect for me is just simply forgetting how to communicate.

>> Do you think we need to show more grace to, I mean, especially in those early years post-pandemic?

I mean, we're five years out now, but I mean, do you feel like we needed to show grace to especially the kids who, to your point, were barely interacting with people in person anymore?

And maybe those social skills were eroding.

>> Absolutely.

and I think most importantly not for children my age now, but for the younger ones who were actually born during that time.

Because all of their childhood, all they know is home, and all they know is whatever is going on in the home.

So now having to.

>> Integrate.

>> Integrate into this new environment, it it's something new for them.

And so they don't always know how to process feelings or they don't always know how to share things.

my younger brother specifically, he's someone who struggles a lot with that.

And he's actually been getting in trouble a lot recently, but he needs that extra hand on the point he was making of young men needing teachers who care and needing teachers who doesn't just give up on you because of your a bad kid, but someone who says, hey, let's sit down, let's have a conversation.

Let's figure out where we can go from here to try to make things better.

>> So you started at 14.

Gerard was just a little older than 14 when he started at Teen Empowerment.

You've been there for a couple of.

>> Years now?

Yeah, a couple of years now.

>> So what brought you in the door?

Teen empowerment.

>> Well, actually teen empowerment was part of my childhood.

Still, I was actually one of the first performers at the t conference that they had and they hosted, I believe, on the school of the Arts stage years ago.

And I had did a poem called The Power of My Hand.

and it was, by Lance Jeffers.

It's funny, because I had just did the poem a couple weeks ago as well.

so I knew about t, I knew because we we're like family.

Of course we go to the same church.

Her oldest son is actually my nephew.

My twin brother's son.

and I saw her work.

I saw what she was doing.

And at first, if I'm completely honest, because I am transparent, I just needed a job.

I had got kicked off one job, which I won't say any names of what that job was.

but they gave me a severance, and I believe they gave me a severance because I walked in and said, hey, we don't have any D.I.

Here.

They paid me.

They paid about 8000 to send me to a D.I.

Training.

conference in Savannah, Georgia.

I came back and said, hey, we don't have anything D.I.

There's nothing that is inclusive here.

And I just remember one of the higher ups telling me, we're going to send you, but we don't want to do anything with that right now, but we're going to let you do it.

And then they wanted me to join a different department, which was the communications department at that time.

And so you guys value me as a communicator.

You want to give me more money to do this, but you don't value me enough to help me identify where we actually fit into the scheme of this.

And so I just needed a job.

I was out of a job.

I had ended up picking up another job that just wasn't me at all.

And Shannon was like, well, we got space here.

And so why don't you come over?

And I thought this was just me making money until about two months in, I realized that, nope, this was not about money.

This was about purpose.

This was this was me becoming more aware of what the actual needs of our community were, of our communities were the people that exist in it.

Seeing myself, healing myself, looking at these kids.

And so it became more about purpose than anything.

>> Yeah.

I mean, it seems like a remarkable fit.

Here you are as a pastor of a church whose congregation has tripled.

>> Yeah.

>> And people are flocking to to be part of something that I know you wouldn't say you did it all on your own, but you're creating something pretty special.

And now you get a chance to work with kids.

You have your own background that is really instructive for helping kids who are going through some of the worst of the worst experiences.

And I, I remember it was a couple weeks ago.

We had the author of a new book on the show about happiness and about some of the traits of happy people and the it boils down, really.

I mean, it's a very simple phrase, and it's going to be like sort of kind of intuitive or obvious, but they said they like to ask people like, what do you how would you complete this?

Like in general, truly happy people blank.

And people like, well, like they don't have debt or they've got a lot of money or, you know, they have a good job.

It's like truly happy people feel loved, straightforward, but feel loved.

So when you describe what it was like growing up with a dad who you had to hide under the bed from for hours, thinking not only he doesn't love me, he hates me.

Yeah.

I don't think you doubted that your mom loved you, but you were still had a lot of fear in your life.

And yeah, talk to me about the.

Especially with boys who don't always want to talk about their feelings and don't always want to open up as much, but they need to know that they're loved, right?

>> Yeah.

>> I think that that it's from a deeper place.

Not only do they need to know that their love, I feel like we need to identify what healthy love is because if we're not careful, we'll start accepting anything that people give us and we will think, well, this is love, this affirmation, this.

And so teaching the difference between what's inappropriate and what's appropriate.

and so needing that dad's presence would actually happen is I became a great performer because every time I got an award, dad came to the awards show.

If I did a play, dad will sneak into the play.

If I was doing something on stage, dad would try to be there.

And so it was only when I performed that he showed up.

And so I think what happened in my own life is I became a great performer, and I didn't know who I was without the performance.

>> That is so interesting.

You knew deep down in your own mind, whether you articulated it or not, that I've got to perform, to feel.

>> Love, to feel.

>> Love by my dad.

>> And then it became now I have to perform, to feel loved by my congregation.

I have to perform to feel loved by my wife or my children, or, you know, I have to overperform I have to outdo everyone.

I have to be the best at it.

I have to dress the best.

years ago, if this was a meeting that I had had, normally I would come in.

I would have an A suit, a tie, you know, because I had something to prove that I was well dressed, I was clean and I was put together.

But then when I finally started, like not performing and living and existing, it's like, well, I don't have to do all of that.

The people that are supposed to love me will, and I think men need to know that as well, that while we don't express and we don't have the we don't always have the emotional intelligence we need the people who are supposed to love you will, and the people that you are called to.

They're going to come and you'll be able to serve them, and that your purpose is not to go preach.

My purpose is not being in the pulpit.

Most people say that's purpose for me.

That's not my calling.

I feel like my calling is partnering with this community as we pursue better and healthy lifestyles.

I feel called to be a husband.

I feel called to be a father.

You know, I don't feel called to the pulpit.

The pulpit is an expression of my persuasion.

I am persuaded that I want other people to know about this God, that I love, that has saved me, that made me a better husband, that made me a better father, that healed my relationship with my father.

So that's why I preach.

>> How many kids do you have?

>> I have two, well, I have, I say I have two, I have three.

So my wife and I kind of took in a child when she was 13.

She is now 24.

She'll kill me if I don't.

>> Get that right.

>> But she is a spoiled 24 year old, and then we have a 17 year old who will be 18 in April, and we have a 16 year old.

So three girls.

>> What have you learned most about when it comes to you?

Talk about performance and you talk about learning the lesson of not having to always be on, always performing, to feel loved.

What about as a father?

What have you learned about how to handle, you know, a a changing child?

>> I think we have to give them space.

I've learned to give them space.

I started out as a very strict father.

We're all going to church.

We're all going to.

You're going to get in bed at this time.

You're going to do these things.

All of this is going to be in place only because, again, I didn't have that and I wanted it, you know, to.

>> You wanted that structure.

>> I wanted.

structure from my father.

My mom gave us structure, but I wanted structure.

And I wanted his voice to be the loudest voice.

and so what I learned with children is that you having the loudest voice doesn't mean you have the voice of authority.

And sometimes the voice of authority is the one that can be in the room and not say anything, yet acknowledged.

And so for my girls, we've gotten to a place where I don't have to say much.

They and she could tell you, we don't play that.

We don't we don't play that back and forth in the church.

We don't play running around.

You know what time you go to bed?

There 16, 17 years old.

They still have a bedtime.

830 you need to go to bed because you're still in school.

You know, you still need to be fresh for the next day.

and so I feel like that's important, but I've just learned to give them space to still grow up.

Give them space to voice their opinion.

Who are you?

We had to ask one of our daughters, and I won't say it live, but we had to ask them.

Who do you want to be?

Because you are thinking that because we are pastors, we can't love who you decide to be.

But I will never let my role in anybody's church usurp how I love you unconditionally, deeply, and passionately.

And so I think we saved her when we did that.

You know, we got her back because she was in this deep, dark place.

You guys are pastors, and I'm dealing with some stuff, and I don't think you guys, I'm going to go to hell.

And I'm just, like, not on my watch.

>> You won't go to hell.

>> You know?

So I and I think that made me a well-rounded pastor.

Not to shift gears a little bit, but what she mentioned about, you know, the church and how we deal with the LGBTQ.

My twin sister has been a lesbian for years.

You know, she has a daughter.

And recently, two years ago, she got in front of the church and she says, I don't want this lifestyle anymore.

And so she went from dressing like a boy for 16, 17 years.

Her daughter never seen her mom not look like a man to.

Now, my sister is back to being who she was when she was growing up.

A pretty girl and nails and hair and lashes.

And she's dancing.

Her daughter's like, who is this?

Because I never had this.

And you know what she told me?

She said, the reason why I came back was because you never made me feel unloved.

You never made me feel like I wasn't supported in this church.

That made me want to know God for myself even more.

Now I know he can heal me.

I know he can deliver me.

And even if I never get married, I still know I'm deeply loved and I can live this life for Christ because of how everyone in this church has treated my journey.

>> I want to thank our guests for coming in, and I feel like we just scratched the surface.

So if you want to learn more.

So we're going to be talking to your colleagues at tea soon about some big stuff happening there.

Where are you located now?

Where's the new digs?

>> We're located on the corner of Dewey and Magee, 1298 Dewey Avenue.

>> And how's it going there?

>> It's going really great.

space is looking good.

it's been amazing.

Grand opening was amazing.

The open house was amazing.

I'm proud of the work we've put out so far.

>> Did a good job.

>> And, pastor, where do people see you in action?

>> Well, I'm at 373 Genesee Street at the main T building.

Other than that, you can come to 397 North Street, Rochester, New York, at 11 a.m.

every Sunday.

>> 11 a.m.

on Sundays.

There's still space.

>> There's still space.

>> Okay.

Thank you for telling your story.

>> Thank you for allowing me to.

>> Share it.

>> Yeah.

Thank you for being here.

And Sahara, thank you.

Great meeting you.

And again, I know a lot of your colleagues at T. We look forward to talking to them, to all of you guys soon about what's going on there.

Thanks very much.

Thank you.

Sahiyra Dillard Program Coordinator, Teen Empowerment and the office and facilities manager for T, is the senior pastor at Holy Trinity Baptist Church.

That's Pastor Jerrard Brown from all of us at Connections.

Thanks for watching.

Thanks for listening.

We're back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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