From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Julie Philipp filling in for Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in a local craft brewery.

You got it.

We're talking about beer and the people who brew it.

Serve it, distribute it, sell it and make labels.

And last but not least, drink it.

They're the people keeping the craft beer industry alive.

And this week they are the main focus of the Flower City Brewers Fest Friday night at the Rochester Public Market.

But the celebration takes place against a backdrop of challenging times for this once booming industry.

Production is down.

Sales are down.

More of the nation's craft breweries closed last year than opened.

Some say it's a correction.

An article in the Rochester Beacon this spring noted tight margins have always been a part of the game.

But quote for a long stretch of the 20 tens, that demanding reality was papered over by graft and act.

But others say it's more nuanced than that.

A Chinging world means breweries need to rethink just about everything if they want to keep the taps running.

This hour, we're going to find out more about the festival and the industry itself.

With my guests here in studio.

Let me introduce them.

I begin with Paul Leone.

He is executive director of the New York State Brewers Association.

Hi, Julie.

Thank you.

We have Jeff Ching, managing partner at Strange Bird Brewing.

Thanks.

Nice to be here.

And Andy Cook, owner and head brewer at Swift Water Brewing.

Nice to see you.

Nice to see you.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks.

So I want to start out just setting the stage for people with a quick definition of what a craft beer is, so we know what we're talking about.

Why don't we start with you, Paul?

Well, it's a broad one.

You know, I would say a craft brewery is basically a smaller brewery wouldn't include the bigger breweries like Anheuser-Busch.

It would include, for those listening to the station, like the swift waters and the strange birds and the spotted octopuses and all of those smaller, breweries that are in the technical term, you know, just under 2 million barrels of beer a year, which is, you know, most, most breweries in New York make about 500 barrels a year.

So small.

Okay.

And, Andy, I want to ask you what what made you want to be a craft brewer to begin with?

I just really loved, making.

I actually got into, because I love making food, and that kind of grew, extended into beverages as well.

And when I found out I could make my own beer, I was, I was all about it.

Okay.

And you know, I was surprised to find out a little bit about the history of this festival and the industry.

This is the 32nd year of the festival that really surprised me.

32 years?

Yeah.

There's no festival in the state of New York that it's gone on this long.

And so, you know, it started, 32 years ago with John or Lobb and Roebuck Brewing Company in a little parking lot not far from the station, and has, gone through some different places and was at the ball field for a little while.

And now we're at, I think the very best location we could be at is the Rochester Public Market.

And we're going to get into all the details of the festival later in the program.

But first, I want to talk about what's going on in the industry itself right now.

Nationwide, 60% of craft breweries reported declining production in 2025 compared to 39% reporting growth.

So let's break it down.

How do things look first in New York State, across the state, with breweries.

And then I want to talk to to you guys.

So, Paul, could you talk about what the industry is looking like statewide?

Sure.

When I started as the first executive director of the Brewers Association in New York State, in 2013, and when I was hired, there were 135 breweries.

Today at our peak, actually just a few years ago, we are 535.

So the second most are now we're hovering around 500.

And before Covid, we were opening a brewery about one every eight days.

And so the growth was, was really just massive, and quick and never sustainable.

And I think that's what people, you know, or when they say, oh, we're at this big downturn, it's like, well, there was no way we were going to continue to open brewery every eight days.

And then nobody had a pandemic on their bingo card.

And all of those things that that happened.

And so, you know, New York State, where we are right now is, yes, breweries.

You're starting to see some breweries close.

You read about that, but you're still seeing breweries open.

And we're still hovering around 490 to 500 breweries.

Okay, so in the past year, have you seen a more significant decline or it's just been kind of a steady decline over the past 5 or 6 years?

It has been, well, I mean, it's been more noticeable over the last few years, I think, for a variety of reasons with some folks, and you're starting to see breweries open, continually.

So, you know, I say we're flat, in New York State and especially in the Rochester area, it's where we're, you know, and are you going to see more breweries closed?

I'm sure it's going to happen.

It's a business, and not all businesses are going to make it.

But you're still going to see some open.

Okay.

And we're going to get into some more of the reasons I want to ask you, starting with you, Jeff.

With Strange Bird Brewing, you guys actually seem to be doing pretty well.

But how are you seeing the state of the industry now?

From our perspective, we've had growth year over year.

We started with, selling about 500 barrels of beer when we opened in 2021.

And we're approaching 2000 barrels, in 2026.

So we've had consistent growth.

Our taproom has been very busy.

We offer a full restaurant and, you know, other beverages, but, craft beer is still our primary, revenue source.

And it's been good.

So you haven't seen any decline in production, sales, that kind of thing?

No.

We've been able to add, sales accounts throughout New York State.

Now we're delivering down in New York City, Buffalo and Syracuse.

It's been really positive for the year.

How about you over at, Swiftwater?

Yeah.

So we've kind of gone in the opposite direction as, Strange Bird and we were distributed throughout New York State and New Jersey, up until about 22 or so.

And we've kind of slowly retracted.

So that's led to less production by gallons.

But we're selling more of it.

You know, directly out of house, out of out of the front of the house.

And then also, we're self distributing to a few retailers in, in Rochester.

So while we, while the, the volume and style and the, the revenue is actually up.

So, I don't know if you can slice it either way, but, we're, we're essentially, we kind of cut out the middleman a little bit.

So we're, we're able to make more well, even while we're making less beer.

Okay.

Would you say you're you're thriving brewery?

You know, it depends on your definition of thriving.

We're profitable, so, you know, that's, that's the number one goal, right?

Is to, to be able to pay ourself well and, still have money left over to, to pay all the other bills.

Okay.

We're going to get into some of the challenges.

There seems to be a slight, disagreement over whether, as you've stated, this is really a correction to an industry that was just about, you know, growing too fast, too quickly.

And others saying no.

And I'm sure we can get into the very specific challenges.

There's a lot of other things going on that are just making it tough in an industry that's always had a pretty tight margin.

So first, let's talk about the viewpoint that this is simply a correction.

You touched on it before, but can I hear more about that?

Yeah.

I mean, again, it was it was never sustainable.

I know there's a pizza, shop analogy.

You know, when a pizza shop opens, you know, all the time when they closed, nobody says, oh, the industry is in trouble.

That's it.

No more pizza shops anywhere.

And so that's kind of where the brewing industry is right now to to what you just mentioned.

I think the challenge since 2020.

And I know, you know, Jeff just said they open to 21, but really they were supposed to open earlier.

And I remember you're like, you know, you guys were paralyzed with fear over a pandemic.

And then ever since 2020, there is and I correct me if I'm wrong, but there's never been a predictable year of like, oh, this year is going to be great, or we're going to do this.

There's always been a challenge year after year.

And, you know, right now I think the biggest challenge for breweries is, is economic.

You know, where we are in, in this country and where we are in terms of, you know, there's not a lot of expendable income for some people right now to go to a brewery and to, to buy, you know, the four pack or, you know, have a nice night out.

And so there's those pressures and then the tariffs did, did touch some of the breweries when it comes you know, a lot of our malt comes from Canada and a lot of our steel comes from Canada.

And so the economic pressures that breweries are saying just one on top of another.

But, I think a lot of them and Andy sort of just touched on it, have found a way to pivot and adjust, you know, to become profitable and to stay in business.

Okay.

We're going to get into some of the ways that breweries might need to reinvent themselves.

But first, I want to hear specifically, starting starting with with with you, Jeff, what are some of the biggest challenges you're facing now?

If you had to make a list of the top five things that keep you up at night or or forced you to drink an extra beer at the end of the day, what are those?

Well, I think a lot of it, Paul just mentioned there's a lot of uncertainty with, how we source our ingredients and the, the costs that we could expect.

So we have to do a lot of planning, a year out for how we, brew our beer.

So when you don't really know what's going to happen next month with tariffs like, that's a, that's a big concern and it's a big worry for us.

And then I think other issues just staffing the restaurant, those are other concerns that my background is restaurants.

So that's something we've always faced.

But, those are the two things people managing our people and then knowing how much our, ingredients are going to cost.

Okay.

And so when you, make your ingredients, does the cost of the ingredients come into play there?

So you're trying to figure, Oh, yeah.

I'd be a little more specific.

So what, you mean we we source our hops?

We have to contract them.

So we we, agree to buy a certain amount of hops for the for the next calendar year.

And so we kind of lock those in.

That's a nice thing.

We can get pricing there, but our malt and stuff can fluctuate.

Our price of cans can fluctuate.

So, we're trying to set a price to sell to Wegmans and sell at the taproom.

If we don't, if those prices go up, we usually end up absorbing that.

That, difference.

Okay.

And how about you what would you say your top five ish economic challenges are right now.

What's costing you the most.

You know, I think I just, I can echo what, what Jeff said and you know, while ingredients are for sure a concern, you know, there's a lot of other prices that are variable as well, like electricity and, and energy.

And then I think I would also echo that, that staffing is, is one of our biggest challenges, just finding awesome people and, retaining those people and developing them to, have more responsibility over the business is, is one of my biggest challenges.

Yeah, yeah.

So could you I know in the Rochester Beacon you kind of walked through, the specifics of those challenges, particularly when it comes to staffing and and the costs.

Sure.

And a little bit, what is it costing you?

Yeah.

So we've always paid, a true minimum wage rather than a server minimum wage.

So that essentially our staff is making, you know, the minimum wage right now and 16 bucks an hour, I believe, and then tips on top of that.

And, you know, kind of what I laid out, in talking to my buddy, well, was the, you know, really, he had written in our article about craft, craft beer selling regularly for $8 a pint now, and I just broke it down, and I'm like, look, well, like inflation is this.

And, you know, if you look at the, the minimum minimum wage over the last 12 years since we've, we opened it's, it's it's more than doubled.

I think that's right.

It's about doubled.

So, you know, it's not really that surprising that if those costs are, are doubling or are close to you over that period of time, you know, it's just simple math.

The cost of a pint has to go up as well.

And you're talking about.

Well, Cleveland, the the beer expert in that wrote this article.

So are you getting pushback from customers on that $8 pint every now and again?

But I would say it's pretty rare.

You know, I think I think most of our, our customers.

Do you realize that the nothing has gotten cheaper over the last 12 years?

So for anything and we also do, we make a, a light lager that is very affordable for us to make.

And so we, we price that accordingly.

So, you know, you can walk in and get, a pint for much less than eight, $8.

Yeah.

And I think that, and I think, I think maybe that is starting to turn around.

I think for a while after Covid, it was it was really hard to talk to talk people into coming out, to have a few pints in a, in a meal.

And I, I think, I mean, we're seeing this year, about, 12% growth in and traffic, at our restaurant, which, it's super exciting for me, for sure.

So that that wasn't as much related to the cost as to fear of of getting sick.

It's so hard to say, like, you know, I, I do think that I grew up in a rural area in New York and I, I hang out in a small town in the Adirondacks and and living in Rochester, we always took it much more seriously.

As far as, like, masking and like, social distancing, we did way more of that.

And then I think it hung on longer in urban areas.

So for us being located in the center of Rochester, maybe we saw a traffic pick up over the five years since 2020 rather than, you know, where I grew up in a in a super rural area, the restaurants pop pop back like a year later, you know?

Okay, so looking at it statewide, there was a lot of discussion about this $8 pint in Rochester.

How do the how does it compare to the rest of the state in terms of the cost of a pint, and then also what people anticipate?

Well, I mean, it's it's it's depending on where you are in the state.

I mean, I think if you go to Manhattan, you're seeing $12 pints.

And the interesting thing about the $8 pint, $12 pint, $9 pint, $24 for a pack is the margins are still so thin for the breweries that are selling these beers at that cost.

And I think maybe the public doesn't understand that.

They think, oh, they're raising prices so that they can, you know, make more money.

And I think they're raising prices because they have to, and that's the that's the issue that they're all challenge right now.

So, yeah, downstate you know, it wouldn't be uncommon to see ten, $12, down in New York City, Long Island, upstate.

Yeah.

We finally, you know, used to be five, six.

There's now seven, eight, even nine in some places out of sheer survival.

Right.

Okay.

So the, one thing that also is not discussed when we talk about the industry, so much is that the, the the economic impact of the industry, you know, we're all talking, oh, can we go get a beer?

That's the impact of this.

But there is a very real economic impact on the state as a whole.

Do you want to walk through some of those numbers?

What are what the breweries impact is?

Yeah, we're we're a $4.8 billion economic impact right now in the state of New York.

Which makes us number two in the country.

So it's again, it's the volume.

It's the number of breweries.

And it's also involved in the amount of tourism.

And so the last day that we did was 24, so, yeah, $4.8 billion, 20,000 jobs.

So we're pretty healthy economic impact.

We we we benefit.

You know, the fact that the great thing about beer, beer is bipartisan and the one thing that Albany has always really done on both sides of the aisle has support this industry and the wine industry, insider industry and the spirits industry.

And so our laws in New York are generally a lot more liberal than, than most other states.

Andy mentioned it earlier.

We can self distribute.

There's still a lot of states, southern states, that they can't even deliver their own beer.

And and there's even some states that that, you know, have challenges of how much beer they can sell over the counter.

So in New York, because of, of, of both sides, really just supporting this industry, we've been able to grow and been a good economic impact back to the state.

Okay.

And, Jeff, one of the things that people are saying is and we're seeing it kind of the same thing that happened with the breweries is with the cannabis industry.

You see one opening about every day somewhere in Rochester, it seems like.

Is that affecting your business?

Are people is it is do you think the cannabis industry, the legalization of that in New York as a competitor to, you know, I don't see it as a competitor.

We don't really have any, guests coming in house, you know, requesting, cannabis seltzers or, we don't really see a drop off in our, restaurant sales in that in that term, I think we've we've seen restaurant growth and people in-house.

And I think what Andy mentioned, there has been a bit of a social rebound and people wanting to come together and experience things out of their house.

So I think, breweries provide a great place to do that.

So you guys aren't seeing people choosing cannabis over alcohol?

No, that's not really on your radar.

Oh my God, not that I've seen that.

Okay.

And you touched on this before, Andy, and it was also in the beacon article.

You were, you said and it's kind of a quote here, it no longer makes a lot of sense for breweries to try to be Wegmans brands.

Why did that make sense before and why doesn't it make sense now?

Well, I don't know.

I think you know, in rethinking that, like I think it's it's very, very specific.

So, you know, I think Strange Fruit is at the size where, they, they have the staffing set up to, do that, the selling into Wegmans.

And, you know, I think, I think from my perspective, no longer made sense to, to chase that volume because the distribution channel, it has become much harder to work through, and much less accommodating to smaller brands, I would say is you're downsizing a little bit.

So what is that distribution?

The requirements that make it so hard, I think I think just, I think in order to work with a distributor, I think that, you need to invest a lot in the staffing to work alongside that distributor and sell, sell the, the beer into bars and restaurants and and ten years ago when we started distributing, we had a great distribution partner and that really provided the sales staff for us.

Because we couldn't afford to hire somebody full time to do that.

And it was just like another one of my side jobs.

So, and so they, they were really good to work with at that time, I think it's not like any one distributor.

It's really just the whole business model has Chinged so that they're really not interested in bringing on smaller brands, or if they if they are, then they're not very interested in, okay.

You know, we'll sell these three, three brands that you make because we know that they've been selling well for the last five years.

But like this new thing we're not really interested in.

So, you know, it just got a lot more challenging since Covid.

I would say.

And there's, I'm sure there are a lot of reasons that went into that, but it kind of all added up to the, it just doesn't make sense for us at our size.

It's small, but for Strange Bird, it does.

Yeah.

We it was unique for us.

As Paul mentioned, we opened we were building the, our building out in 2020.

And so, we realized we had to pivot.

Our original concept was to sell all the beer across the bar.

We never had any intention, really, to to distribute our beer, but that quickly Chinged.

And and so we opened only selling beer in package out of the brewery, without the restaurant open.

And then we had to start utilizing the self distro distribution opportunities.

And so when the restaurant finally opened, it wasn't really something we could just say, we're going to stop doing self-distribution.

And so we kind of had to figure out the best way to do that.

But, we have a small, devoted, hard working group of guys that, make up our distribution team and, you know, there and even Mika, our owner, one of our partners and myself were, you know, running beer, two accounts as best we can.

But, yeah, I think the hiring and working with the outside distributor is.

It's really tough to do the middleman.

Yeah, they're going to take a part of the.

Yeah, they take us, right?

Yeah.

And if I go in for those that listening that don't understand how it works, like we're still bound by the three tier system, which was created right after prohibition, nearly 100 years ago.

So you have the manufacturing tier, the breweries, they have to go through the wholesale tier that has to go to the retail tier, and everybody gets a cut.

And Fred Matt, who owns Matt Brewing, used to put it really great.

He said, would you rather make $7 a, $7 a pint or $7 a case?

And so it really is a volume business and it's not for everybody.

It's it's really hard to get into distribution.

And the distributors distribute beer.

They don't sell beer.

And so, you know, you have to hire salespeople and there's cost to that as well.

So it's not for everybody.

But the breweries, 90 plus percent of the breweries in the state of New York and even in the Rochester area, really are just going to make more money off the cross.

Their bar, as the original plan was, than it is to get into wholesale.

Okay, so it's pretty, maybe not rare, but fewer breweries get into this distribution model than than not, right?

Yeah.

And most of them shouldn't because it's complex and costly and all of that.

So okay okay.

All right.

We're going to take a short break.

And when we come back we will continue our conversation about the craft beer industry and learn more about the Flower City Brews Fest with our guests.

Paul Leone, executive director of the New York State Brewers Association, Jeff King, managing partner at Strange Bird Brewing, and Andy Cook, owner and head head brewer at Swiftwater Brewing.

We'll be right back.

I'm Evan Dawson, coming up in our second.

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Learn more at Excel bcbs.com and welcome back to connections.

We're talking about the craft beer industry with our guest, Paul Leone, executive director of the New York State Brewers Association, the managing partner of Strange Bird Brewing, Jeff King and Andy Cook, owner and head brewer at Swiftwater Brewing.

If you'd like to join the conversation, 263999 4 or 8 44295 talk for toll free calling.

That's (844) 295-8255.

Or you can email us at connections@wxxi.org.

And you can also leave comments on the WXXI news, YouTube live stream.

Lots of ways to get involved with our conversation.

So let's talk about moving forward.

It sounds like both of you have already thought about the model that you have, that you think will work best for you.

Where are you in terms of implementing Chinges to the model?

Where do you see yourselves going?

I'll start with you, Andy.

Yeah, I, I think, really strange where Dan and Swiftwater are fairly similar in that we really put a large focus on the food company and for our experience and brewing experience and brewery experience.

And, I would, I would say we both make fantastic food as well.

And so we're we're always continuing to push that.

And then, you know, I think one thing that I've really been focusing on lately is just, to, you know, we're we're primarily a brewery, so we're really passionate about making beer, but we get a lot of groups of ten people and 1 or 2 of them, don't drink beer.

So, we're really we're really pushing forward with expanding our wine and cocktail program as well.

So, you know, our focus is really just to, to make sure that everyone in that group of ten people will find something that they'll enjoy.

And how about you?

Yeah.

I, I agree wholeheartedly with Andy on that.

The brewery, coming into the restaurant and the brewery is a social experience, and we recognize that we want to attract, you know, as many people in as possible to, to have fun and celebrate.

But there's a lot of different, requirements that people have to go out and spend their money.

And so we've had a cocktail program and a full bar since we opened.

Nonalcoholic drinks are a big part of that.

And we're, actually rolling out a nonalcoholic beer, this fall.

So those are all things that we have to do every day to just, be competitive in a, in a, in a in a dining and restaurant and brewery scene.

Okay.

And why is it so important to have your own food and good food versus just, you know, a handful of breweries I've been to, you know, it's, pretzels and the, you know, but both of you seem to think the food component is really important.

I think when we opened 10 or 12 years ago, it wasn't the norm to for a brewery to even have food.

So just the fact that that you had food was was a huge deal.

And it, people didn't care if it was the, the pretzel that you pulled out of a freezer and, and, through and through through and, toaster oven for a little bit.

That was fine.

You know, I think just the bar has been raised, and it's, I'd like to think it's partly my fault and partly Jeff's fall as well.

But, you know, now now people are really looking for, like, inspired food.

Good for, like, creative food.

Yeah.

I mean, we don't just compete with other breweries to to bring customers in.

We're competing with the whole hospitality industry.

So I think, breweries as, as Andy said, originally just kind of occupied this one space.

They would make a great IPA, they would have beer.

But we've slowly we're competing with the local.

We've actually become the neighborhood pub or the neighborhood bar down your street.

So, you know, we want people to, to really spend those dollars at our place as a, not as opposed to, but in addition to going to other restaurants in town.

And I say what you're seeing around the state, the sort of experience driven it and more of a it's not that different from the neighborhood pub that they've had too.

I mean, like, like Jeff and Andy said before Covid, you just go, you're going to have a beer and have some pretzels or whatever, and then go out to dinner somewhere.

And, and now people want to sit down and have something to eat, and not just something to eat, but something substantial to eat, which also benefits the breweries, because then they'll stay and buy another beer.

But which also is hard for some breweries, is breweries are really good at making beer.

A lot of them shouldn't be in the restaurant business.

Right.

So there's that challenge as well.

And there are some laws that that help with them to bring in.

They can bring in the local restaurant could open up a kitchen if they wanted to.

So there are things that they can do, to best fit their model.

But you out there must have to have food.

And oh, by the way, they also have to like, do experiential things like run nights on Mondays, which, you know, or trivia nights and those sort of things.

The brewing experience has evolved from making beer, selling beer to being much more experiential, for sure.

And those that have evolved are are doing are doing pretty good right now.

Well, are you guys expecting anything close to what you're doing now when you started out?

No.

And it.

Yes and no.

It for me coming from restaurants.

I have opened several restaurants in town.

You know, there's a degree that strange where we're just kind of doing a continuation of that, but, I had no idea that the complexities of operating a brewery before we open, I would say, you know, I was I always wanted to have a culinary program at Swiftwater, but I wasn't expecting, a friend of mine runs runs, pub in Rochester, and I was like, yeah, I thought I was opening a brewery in a taproom.

And he's like, no, you open a pub?

Yeah.

So, you know, it just that part of the business is it's way, way bigger and more important than I realized it would be.

Yeah, that's what it really feels like.

So what are some of the experience driven, some of the creative things you've seen, breweries do around the state?

It ranges anywhere from, you know.

No, but not far from here does adult prom once a year, which is sort of a fun event that they do.

I think I've seen Pinewood derby.

I've seen, you know, especially downstate, a little bit like book club night, which they say they'll bring in 50 people on a book club and people will read books.

Quietly talk about them and have beer.

So they're really getting creative.

Learn your community, small circles, what's effective in your community and really kind of tap into that and and have a night for it.

And also a lot of breweries are, are doing event driven stuff and rent this space out for events.

And so they're really challenging themselves to like, how can I make some extra revenue and give the people what they want?

And oh, by the way, it's a brewery and they're going to come in and have a few beers at the same time or have, you know, more than beer.

I think every brewery, you can get a nonalcoholic beverage of some kind, or a New York State wine or New York State cider.

And the laws are are pretty flexible for a lot of breweries to offer other things for those people, that aren't drinking.

And I was at, I was at a brewery and it was trivia night, and I saw there was a table of like ten, you know, Gen Z or solid Gen Z years.

And out of those ten people, three had beer, but the others were drinking either soda or a glass of wine or something.

But the key is there were ten people in that brewery and they were all spending money on trivia night.

So these are things that breweries need to think about.

Do you guys have anything in the works, some kind of things that you're thinking about doing?

Well, Paul mentioned we do a run club every Monday night and that's that.

We started that two years ago.

And we've now especially in the summer, we average close to 100 people that come down to the brewery on a Monday night.

On a Monday night.

Yeah.

And we run.

So they run first and then we run for.

Yeah, right person after the run, we put out pizza and salad and French fries for them, and there's no expectation that anyone comes in and buys anything.

It's really an opportunity to to meet people in your community.

We run across the river.

We have all these different routes.

We do, so that's been a really just great thing to, to participate in.

And then, with this fall, we're going to we do a yearly it's a mini Renaissance fair in our parking lot.

It's called good and boom, it's a celebration of Belgian beer.

So we try to have fun, kind of weird events like that from time to time to.

Okay, how about you?

Anything in the works or doing anything?

Yeah.

So we do trivia on Tuesday.

We work with, Facebook Bike Group, and they start at Swiftwater and bike to usually another brewery and then, back to swap other, we also have our Octoberfest on, October 3rd.

So that's a really big day for us.

We set up, picnic tables and tents in the parking lot and, and it's, and we have a, accordion player, Mariana, that comes every year.

So, that's always fantastic to answer.

Okay, so, numbers.

And at the end of 2020 or 2026, compared to the numbers at the that I spouted off earlier about the end of 2025, when 60% of the breweries, had a decline in production, what do you think the end of this year is going to be?

Is it going to be flat?

Is it going to be better or worse?

I still see flat.

I mean, you know, we had we had a pretty significant closing in Candida wood, naked dove, you know, that was one of an early pioneers.

But we've got, you know, Palmyra, New York now has a brewery, you know, has Drummond's, just opened, Wheel Works, which is a major.

It looks like a major operation opening up in shorts ville, fully experiential, that they're going to have golf simulators and, you know, all sorts of fun things that you can do there.

And, you know, our the, the one la the one thing that we see where we actually see a little bit of growth is if you have a farm brewing license in New York State, you can actually open up what's called a branch office.

And so, you know, you're seeing other breweries, like, I don't want to open another brewery, but with this license, I can open a taproom somewhere else.

So you have, there's a brewery in Brooklyn called Wild East.

They're going to open a taproom soon in Canada.

And you're seeing breweries, like, how can I make more revenue?

Well, you know, I'm going to open a taproom in this town that might be, you know, a couple counties over.

It's manageable.

I can go back and forth, and then I can just sell my beer in my own spot.

So you're seeing a lot of that happening.

You got spotted octopus that took over the rock space there originally?

A buffalo brewery.

And so, so you're seeing a lot of those moves right now.

So in terms of new breweries and breweries closing, most likely we're seeing flat right now.

Okay.

And what do you think is in store for you as you look at 2026 at the end of the year, where do you think?

So?

Swift water is going to be I mean, sorry, that's strange bird.

Well, we've seen growth from 2025, primarily in our self distribution, arm of the business, the restaurant is has had modest growth, but we're we're lucky.

We're we're doing pretty well on the weekends.

It's been pretty busy.

Most, most days were open.

Okay.

And how about you?

Yeah.

So we'll we'll have distributed less, because we moved away from a 33rd party distro distributor last year.

But we'll, we'll make more profit on what little what we do.

We'll make more profit.

Selling less fat will be more profitable.

So there's that and then we'll we've seen like I said, we've we've seen about 12% growth in our taproom this year.

So yeah 2026 is, is will be a good year for with butter.

And you don't need to name names here, but you're in with a local other local breweries.

Do you see anybody else really struggling.

Do you anticipate additional closures or you think it'll be, I'm sure there will be.

Like Paul said, you know, there's I think we're, mature industry at this point.

And, really, we're not a lot different than most of us are, operate more as restaurants and bars than than really as breweries.

It's, a minor complication, thrown into the mix, for sure.

But, you know, really, we're in the, in the restaurant industry as much as anything.

And it's just the, the it's been that way for, for ages.

The restaurant restaurants come and go.

So, I'm sure we'll see some folks getting out of business and hopefully out on their own terms, and other folks getting in.

Any anything to add to that?

Yeah.

No, I think I think that's an accurate statement about the restaurant industry.

I haven't heard anything from talking to other business owners.

So, I mean, it seems like everybody I talked to is, is is, is managing pretty well and doing their best to work through some of these challenges, trying to figure the things out.

And the bottom line that I'm hearing here is that, you can't just make beer anymore.

That's absolutely correct.

And and you're seeing almost all of them are much more than that just to to their point.

Okay.

And you've talked about New York State and legislation.

Is there anything else that the state could be doing, anything you're lobbying for, pushing for in Albany right now that would, assist Brewers?

I think right now we're mostly in a defensive posture, trying to keep costs from going up for them.

You know, there's the expansion of the bottle bill.

You know, there's several versions of that.

One of them, you know, takes the $0.05 to $0.10, which is going to cost them more money.

And then the other one, just means expanded, which means, you know, wine bottles, liquor bottles, and then you have extended producer responsibility, EPR.

That's the other thing that we're keeping a close eye on.

Wine and grocery stores is a big, big no for us.

You know, we the shelf space is already dwindling for for breweries.

And we've seen this play out in Colorado in real time that did wine and grocery stores and, 40% of the liquor stores closed, and the wine replaced the craft beer in their aisles.

And so we get the convenience argument.

I've lived in states where you could get everything and and it's pretty darn convenient.

But at the same time, I think the people don't see beyond that.

So wine and grocery stores, is one that we're we're so defensive mode right now.

But, you know, we we really, are fortunate in this state that the state is usually, you know, very everybody they listen to us, they hear our problems.

And if there's a piece of legislation that we say this will help benefit, they want to hear about it.

Okay.

Thank you.

And before we get I, we've got about 15 minutes left.

So lots of time before we get into specifics of the festival.

And this is a little bit off the industry, but I it feels like a whole new artistic world.

They're the people that design the labels.

Yeah.

Can you talk about how labels are made and who's making them and and they're I mean, they're they're really creative for us.

I have a friend.

He's actually a rat professor of illustration.

And, so we contacted him early on, and he's done 90% of our, our labels, if not more.

And, so usually the process with, with Chad is that we can just, kind of give him a, the name of the beer or the style.

And he's just such a creative individual that he he he brings us back something, usually very surprising, but wonderful.

We're also lucky we, we hired, part time bartender 11 years ago.

Who happened to have gone to school for graphic design, and, he he works, he became a full time staff member and ran our ran the buyer program for a long time and even brewed for a year or two.

He's since moved on to a full time graphic design career.

But he he still makes time to do our labels label, so, you know, when you walk into a grocery store, the craft beer labels are in most cases, compared to the large beer makers, are just head and shoulders above.

They're just far more artistic.

Is it?

I mean, yeah, it's of developed with the industry.

If you look at a beer aisle, how do you stand out.

Right.

And and you know and so that's kind of like and the good thing about all the breweries and, and especially, you know, their breweries and all of them that you can it's kind of a extension of your personality in some ways.

And it's fun.

It can be a lot of fun.

And so, yeah.

How do you stand out?

And that's really what drives it.

Are there any awards for beer labels?

And there used to be.

There probably should be.

I mean, there are so many good ones out there right now that people just, you know, oh, I'm going to get this because the label is cool, you know, kind of thing.

Yeah.

And yeah, there's there's a lot of good ones out there.

The World Beer Cup might have had one this past year, but it it would be really nice to, to be able to recognize those artists.

And beer names is another fun thing too.

Yeah, yeah.

How do you decide your, the names of your beers?

It's a bit of a struggle sometimes.

When we first opened, we had a list of, ideas.

Just a brainstorming.

And, we've exhausted that list, and so, you know, it's it is.

It can be challenging.

It's a we're creatives.

I think generally in that room, it's a small group of us.

But it's kind of like writing a new song every single day, you know, or naming your band again.

I, I had the best beer name that nobody took, though, in Rochester.

One, because there's a, there's a style of beer called a saison.

And I said, somebody should do saison beer.

Anthony.

And and, and nobody took it because I guess she was very anti alcohol there.

Like, I don't think it would do it.

Yeah.

Wouldn't be a good idea.

What you mentioned in one of our group was that was the reason.

Yeah.

We, we said maybe we shouldn't.

Yeah.

Go there.

So you got to put a lot of thought.

How about you with your experience with naming the beers.

Yeah.

We just usually get 4 or 5 staff members, to, to usually go out somewhere else and have a couple beers and brainstorm a list and put that on the, Google document and, then, then mostly, you know, we, we go to our graphic designer and say, like, we're thinking about making this beer, here's 4 or 5 different names.

And he just picks out the one that he can see, vision for the label.

So you're integrating that.

So all right, so we we have plenty of time.

We got ten minutes left.

Let's start talking about the, festival itself.

So this year, for the first time, there's something called governor's craft Beer Row.

Can you tell us what that is?

Governor's cup row.

So, we have the largest state competition in the country is held right here in Rochester.

And, these two gentlemen have have, have, Ben judges.

Andy helps out doing it.

So we have, you know, on the average, around 1400 beers from all around the state that are entered in this competition.

We get judges from all over the northeast to come to the city convention center to judge beers, 1400 beers over a weekend.

They award gold, silver and bronze traditionally.

And, you know, 33 categories.

Is it Andy?

I think 33 categories, 32 in 32 categories.

And, and so, the gold medal beers out of all of those 32 categories go into a final judging.

So there's seven judges that judge just the gold medal beers.

They pick the one beer, the best of show beer.

Out of all of the 1400 entries, the 32 that win gold, this beer is the most shining example of this year's that wins the Governor's Cup.

And so there we've been doing that for ten years.

There are nine Governor's Cup winners total because he's won the first two.

And they're all coming together for the first time in Rochester, and they're all going to be in one row, as they have had having made the best beer in New York State over the last ten years.

Well, that's exciting.

So you both have been judges?

I have not been a judge before, you know.

You're welcome.

All right, so what?

Other than taste what what did what do you what did you judge.

Yeah.

So I mean, people drink with with their eyes as well.

Or they, they evaluate beer with their eyes as well.

So, the appearance, most of taste is to get a little bit nerdy.

It's actually smell, aroma.

So there's that, they're different.

Different viewers have different viscosity.

So you're evaluating, like the, the creaminess or like, if there's any, like, spiciness or, heat from the alcohol.

And then of course, taste and then like the, the thing that I like to think about is just like, do you want more of it?

You know, is is is a is a beer the as well balanced and leaves you wanting more.

And when you guys are making beers, are you thinking of this award and other awards around the nation?

Are you the you know, we can make it the best we can make?

Or is it just I don't think we're designing beers with awards in mind, but we have a tremendous amount of pride in what we do.

So there's there's motivation to make a beer that in strange for just one brewery of the year.

Yeah.

We won brewery of the year in the first year we opened in 2022, and that's like the most medals that year.

And we tie it.

Yeah, we tied that year.

And yeah, I think you were named Third Brew Pub in the US recently by.

Yeah, USA Fodor.

Paul.

Yeah.

Paul.

Congratulations.

Thank thanks.

What's super interesting if you think about this region and beer specifically out of all of those governor's cups, let's see within driving distance, Genesee has one Dean Jones, you have, Prison City, you have Eli Fish, you have lunc Heimer, and Wood Kettle, which is no longer open.

So, you know, you have those.

I don't think I forgot any big Alice, you know, have all won a Governor's Cup.

And those are all within driving distance of Rochester.

So how does the Finger Lakes region compare to other regions when it comes to to beer?

Oh, we rock.

Yeah.

The best.

Yeah.

Because you can't hear this in Long Island anymore, right?

Yeah.

Well, we are streaming.

All right.

So you technically.

Yeah.

But in just in terms of like, sheer numbers, you know, ways you measure.

How does Finger Lakes stack up this region?

Well, Finger Lakes really includes Rochester.

So it's kind of a big, big region.

You know, if you look at the largest beer regions, probably in the state would be Long Island, Hudson Valley and Finger Lakes for sure.

And this region is probably be the largest at this point.

If you include Rochester and the Finger Lakes region.

And what's really unique about this region is the uniqueness of this region.

The fact that you have the Finger Lakes and you have this city and you have the surrounding area and the personalities in the beer and, how they make their beer and being really integrated in the Finger Lakes with the wine industry so close, it's just kind of a really fun area to travel around.

And when you, when you think about it.

Okay, let's see, next up on the festival logistics, it's more than just beer.

Yeah, I think that's the whole thing.

Just like breweries, it kind of goes, you can't have, beer festivals used to be just beer festivals.

You'd go and you drink beer for four hours, and that's not it anymore.

You really have to create an experience for people to come.

Now, this is a 32 year old festival.

And so we, the New York State Brewers Association, took it over from John Earl job two years ago.

He got through 30 years.

He wanted to retire, which he has done.

And we've taken it over and it's all New York State beer.

But beyond that, we have spirits, we have cider, we have mead.

You can get a tattoo.

We have tattoo artists coming in.

You can listen to music.

It's we've got a food truck rodeo.

And so you really, what you're doing is you're creating an experience for for people to come and and just kind of enjoy an evening of entertainment and trying really great craft beers.

And some people like, well, I really don't like beer.

The great thing about beer festivals to me, is a you shouldn't drink them all and can't drink them all and be there, dump buckets everywhere, and it's really a great way for people to kind of go around to do a taste.

I don't like it, throw it out, put it in the put it in the dump bucket sort of thing, and, and just, you know, find what you like and be around people and listen to music.

And it really is just kind of a fun night at the public market.

Okay.

And I'm guessing this fest has grown over the years.

It has, it has I mean, at its peak, it was probably, you know, it was probably 2 or 3000 people.

And we're probably a little over 2000 people now.

For, for a variety of reasons.

But that's a good number of people, to come.

And I think what's also unique about this festival and the festivals that we do is the fact that the there are like, no volunteers, all of these, all the brewery owners are there pouring the beer so you can say, hey, where's where's this beer from?

And I think that's unique for people too, is that they can say, hey, oh, you're with the brewery.

Oh, you made the beer.

Try this and do that.

And it's it's just it adds.

It adds a lot to be able to talk to the people that are making the beer to learn about them.

Yeah.

And asking the questions that you're asking them, those sort of things.

And like, they're right, they're ready to answer.

And it's just it's a lot of fun.

It's really fun for us, too, because it's, you know, of all the brewery brewers and brewery owners, and we're very good friends.

So, it's kind of like a you share a passion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So this is, not a family affair.

Don't bring the stroller.

Don't don't bring the stroller.

Yeah.

It's, 21 and over, and there are designated driver tickets as well, which we have plenty of those.

And we take care of designated drivers with some food and, you know, and other things and, you know, we're big fans of public transportation in Rochester as well.

We've got plenty of that.

And, it really is, you know, the great thing about our festivals is, is the fact that, like, really everybody is really well behaved and everybody's generally pretty educated when it comes to, you know, they're going to spend the money to go out and do this.

It's they're going to they're going to really ask questions and, and just kind of take it all in.

And that's the beauty of this festival.

It really is one of my favorite festivals that we do.

We do five around the state, and it's so much popular, so popular that really we have breweries from the northern fork of Long Island coming to Rochester from the entire region.

They're all they all come here because of where it is and what the festival is.

So it's it's unique.

Okay, just a few seconds left.

How do people get tickets?

Flower City brewers Fest, dot com.

And they can get tickets there.

And or you can get discounted tickets at Strange Bird if you pay cash, no fees, $50, or Robux.

Okay.

And can you get them at the door?

You can get them at the door too.

Yeah.

77 degrees and sunny.

Okay.

And it starts at 5:00, 5:00 for VIP, 6:00 for general admission.

And there is a handful of VIP left.

Okay.

And it runs until 9:00, 9:00 on Friday.

Well, thank you all for being here today.

We've been, talking craft beer with Paul Leone, executive director of the New York State Brewers Association, Jeff Ching, managing partner at Strange Bird Brewing, and Andy Cook, owner and head brewer at Swift Water Brewing.

This is connections.

I'm Julie Phillips, sitting in for Evan Dawson.

Thanks also to our production team.

Everybody make it happen behind the scenes.

And to you, our listeners, I'll be back tomorrow at this time.

Until then, cheers and.

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