>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in the bedroom.

Or perhaps we should say our disconnection.

This hour is made in the bedroom.

There is all kinds of data showing that in some ways we are not in a very healthy or exciting sexual era in this country.

American women in particular have had a significant jump in sexlessness in the last decade.

Half of Gen Z adults have not had sex, a big drop from previous generations, and surveys show that attitudes about sex have been negatively affected by a lot of factors, from porn to social expectations to dating apps, couples and sex therapists.

Eleni Economides has been watching this unfold, and she says, quote, desire discrepancy in intimate relationships is the norm, not the exception.

When partners do not understand it, they personalize it and struggle to talk about it.

As a result, they fight, disconnect emotionally, have affairs, and proceed to unnecessarily separate or divorce, only to experience the same problem in their next relationship, end quote.

And that's for people who are already in relationships.

But for a lot of Americans, we are more isolated.

We're not together in person as often.

We're struggling to connect, let alone end up in the bedroom together.

So what is going to shake Americans out of these destructive patterns?

Eleni Economides is here to talk about everything from libido to what she is hearing from couples in her practice individuals, what is causing maybe a drop in libido or sexual dysfunction.

And she says we can talk about it, even if it's hard for a lot of people to talk about.

Eleni Economides is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified sex therapist, and a certified life coach.

Well, thank you for pushing us to be able to talk about hard things.

Welcome to the program.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> How long have you been in practice here?

>> Um, I've been seeing couples since 2014.

Okay.

And through the work with couples came the need to be able to talk about sex in a more educated and professional way.

So, um, my sex therapist certification came a few years after that, after seeing couples for couples therapy.

And I think that was in 2018.

And couples and sex therapy has been my jam since then.

I do see individuals as well.

Um, but, um, yeah.

>> Okay.

So I want to say at the outset, we're going to encourage people, if you want to email comments, you can email connections@wxxi.org.

If you want to use your name, that's fine.

If you want to use pseudonym, that's fine.

Um, we solicited comments in advance and you can get a lot of people to talk about artificial intelligence and politics.

Sex, not so much.

Um, people are, I think, struggling in certain ways.

And I think that's partially why you reached out to us that there is a taboo in some ways in talking about this, isn't there?

>> I mean, of course, right.

There is.

I was surprised you you were open to this because.

>> You were surprised that we said, yes, you can come on the show.

>> Yes.

To talk about sex.

Yes.

>> Okay.

Why is that?

Just because it's supposed to be out of bounds?

>> Yes.

I mean, very often I can't even use when I mark it.

I can't use the word the word sex.

>> When you mark it.

>> When I market my services, whether it's, you know, definitely Facebook, Facebook.

>> Doesn't ban the word sex.

>> Do they?

Well, your contact has your, your content has to be very carefully curated to not, uh, include certain.

Yeah.

Words like orgasm.

You have to kind of use different symbols for the algorithm.

Yeah, yeah.

But, but in general, sex is a taboo, right?

That's it's always been and um, it's what contributes to it being a, you know, people struggling with it.

>> But this was supposed to be different now.

And by that, I mean, you know, in the last ten years especially, we've had the MeToo movement, we've had a lot of talk about consent.

We've had a lot of talk about sexual equality.

Um, about better communication, about kind of blowing up some of the old stereotypical ideas that kids might grow up with about sex.

This was supposed to be a better era for this.

And it's doesn't look like it is.

Why is that technology primarily?

Is it isolation?

>> Well, definitely technology and isolation contribute to, um, are you talking about less sex?

>> Because I think it's less sex.

I think it's the way people talk about their own sex lives.

I think it's the frustration that people feel.

It's single people feeling like it's impossible to date to find a partner.

Um, and I'm not talking.

I hope it's obvious.

I'm not talking about like incels or just people who like young men who think they're entitled to sex.

I'm talking about average people who are struggling to find partners or are not loving the dating apps, not loving how hard it is to connect with people.

And I think it's because we're together in person less than we used to be, and a lot of different ways in the workforce where we work more remotely.

Um, in, in, and when it comes to dating apps, a lot of what you do before you see somebody is done online as opposed to, you know, stereotypically in a bar or after work or for coffee.

>> That's right.

>> So we're not really interacting in person enough or a lot.

And I wonder if that means like, we've atrophied in our ability to relate to one another.

>> Um, um, there is that component is big.

It is much less opportunity for organic meeting other people and starting to date and testing relationships.

And you talked a little bit earlier about consent.

And even though you would think, right, we're talking about consent so much more openly.

And, uh, the awareness has increased that also has somehow increased the fear about engaging, you know, or finding yourself in a situation where consent is not there.

>> Right, right.

>> So people are a lot more careful when they're starting, um, to date, but once they decide, then relationships actually unfold better once they decide to start seeing someone.

AM I making sense?

>> Yeah, sure.

It's harder to sort of get going.

>> It's harder to get going.

But once you get there, there's a lot more communication nowadays.

Uh, afterward.

>> What you're describing, what you just described with the fear that people might have about consent, is that tied to the idea that if, if there's not almost like a signed contract, that someone could wake up the next day feeling regretful and all of a sudden was that even consensual?

Was that over the line or some sort of, uh, coercive or aggressive act?

I mean, what exactly do you mean by the fear that people might have about consent?

>> Um, well, um, the awareness that it actually can, can happen, like the freedom for women to say no.

Mhm.

>> Okay.

>> There is more awareness around that, right.

So in the past, you know, you sort of, I don't know how many words I can use here.

Like you put out, this is what you were supposed to be doing when you met someone.

You know, you sort of like make out and have sex right now, women are more careful, right?

When they when they are engaging in a relationship.

>> Which can be a.

>> Healthy thing.

It is a healthy thing.

Yeah.

It is.

It is a healthy thing, but not but men are also more scared, right?

To kind of like engage in case they are misunderstood or.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

From that aspect.

>> So that is creating a barrier.

But once couples get over that, some of these changes in the last decade are creating maybe better relationships.

Mhm.

Okay.

You also work with couples, though, who are struggling in a lot of different ways.

And when you write to us and say that desire, discrepancy in relationships is the norm, not the exception, what do you mean by that?

>> I mean, um, you can't match your sexual desires.

Um, most of the time, right?

So there is always a higher desire partner and a lower desire partner in any relationship.

And maybe in your previous relationship, you were the higher desire partner, but maybe in this you are the lower desire partner.

So it's always in relation to your partner, the level of desire.

So in a relationship, you can be the in your previous relationship, maybe you wanted sex more than your partner, but in this, maybe you want it less than your current partner, right?

So it's a very relative thing, but it's, it's always there in the beginning.

Desires are a little bit more matched because people, they have the new relationship energy.

There's a lot less stress on the relationship.

There is no baggage, right?

We don't have.

Disappointments, miscommunications.

I mean, miscommunications can happen, but we're not mad at each other.

We're not upset.

Right?

It's very everything is very easy, right?

That's right.

So it's easy to want to to have that connection, right.

There is no mental obstacles to it.

Um, but as the relationship progresses, people settle down to, you know, more of what is normal for them.

And it's going to vary, it's going to vary and it's not a problem if you know how to talk about it.

And if you know how to give yourself permission to want it more or to engage in it from a place of understanding the value for the relationship value of sex, right?

Rather than relying on, do I feel horny or not?

That's, you know, if I don't feel horny, I'm not going to have sex because I'm going to wait for horniness to kick in, and then I'm going to have sex.

But if you are in a relationship that you have a higher desire partner and you are the lower desire partner, if the sex is, um, sex can be very valuable for the relationship, for the connection, for nurturing the couplehood.

And if, if we don't know how to talk about it, if he takes it personally and he gets upset and he feels rejected.

>> Why are you saying he is it usually he.

>> Because it is.

It is usually here.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then pulls away rather than has a discussion about what's going on, how can we make it, you know, easier?

People get very kind of like personalizing everything.

And then they start to distance from each other.

And then the less communication you have, the more discrepancy you have.

>> I want to come back to that point, but there's a piece of insight that you sent to us that was tied to this that I think was really important.

You write that when partners don't understand this discrepancy in the separation that can lead to fighting can lead to disconnection.

Emotional disconnection could lead to affairs.

>> Mhm.

>> And it and you've seen it lead to separation or divorce, because there's this idea that this is too far separated.

It's not going to be fixable.

One person might feel hurt or rejected or whatever.

And then those two people go apart and they end up in different relationships, but they end up in the same cycle.

So thinking, well, this is the problem with us.

I'll just leave this relationship and find something better elsewhere.

And what you find elsewhere is it's a lot of the same dynamic.

And that can be really tough for, I'm sure, for people to find they thought they were running away from a problem and yet there they end up with the same problem somewhere else.

>> Yes they do, they do.

I mean, don't get me wrong, some separations and divorces are really.

>> Of course, better.

>> I don't want to misrepresent.

>> Say, that's right.

>> You don't believe.

>> In separating.

But but.

>> But I thought that was pretty profound.

>> Mhm.

Yeah.

Oftentimes because, you know, a it requires a certain level of emotional maturity to be able to have conversations that are honest and open around sex so that you can, um, modify and accommodate your behavior to sort of, uh, take under consideration your partner's needs, right?

When you can't do that and you don't know how to talk about this with your partner, you're just going to assume it's your partner.

Like somehow they don't love you enough.

They don't appreciate you enough, they don't desire you enough.

And therefore they're not the right partner for you.

Right?

So you're not really looking to problem solve much.

You're looking to just get rid of the problem, right?

Which is, oh, my partner is not so interested in sex.

So I have a, you know, I'm a highly sexual person, so I need to find someone who is also highly sexual, right.

But you're going to find someone that has their own, um, desire that what you see in the beginning is the new relationship energy, right?

>> So then you think you've solved.

>> That problem, right?

Right.

>> But as the relationship becomes longterm, then you're going to see the discrepancy again, right?

And sometimes it's bigger and sometimes it's, you know, not not so profound, but it's going to happen.

>> And it almost inevitably happens because, as you said, take two.

Any two human beings on earth, it's unlikely that you're going to get this.

It's unlikely you're going to get an exact perfect sexual desire frequency match.

So there's always going to be something to work through in terms of some level of discrepancy, sometimes big discrepancies, sometimes smaller.

>>, of course.

And I think maybe this is where we need to talk about desire and what really, I mean, when I'm talking about desire, I most people talk about desire as, you know, sort of like a biological pool.

>> Same thing as libido.

>> Libido, okay.

Libido.

>> Desire.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

>> Go ahead.

Um, sexual appetite, sexual drive.

So most people talk about it as this sort of like a urge, right?

This biological pull you sort of like want to have sex, you're turned on and you're horny and right.

And but in my world, the biggest sex organ is the brain, right?

What what goes on in between your ears is more important than what goes on in between your legs.

And because it's, it's it's as much as a mental process as it is like a biological or, um, physiological sort of phenomenon, meaning the attraction that you have toward a partner or wanting to be with them.

It does depend on, um, the mental stimulation and the emotional stimulation that this person provides.

Right?

>> I mean, it makes sense.

Yes, yes.

You're the therapist.

>> Yes.

So people though, sort of like they, they only see this as a biological or physiological issue.

And they're trying to like fix that rather than understand all the other components that play into desire.

There is the, you know, biology, there is the quality of your relationship with your partner, your communication and your connection.

But then there is your relationship with yourself, your self-confidence, your, you know, how much do you like yourself and your body, your, you know, body image is huge here.

Like our desire to share ourselves with another person so intimately is going to be impacted by our body image.

So it's not just a biological pool.

>> But what you're describing, the sort of the between the ears being the most important.

I remember the actress Jenna Fischer, she played Pam on the office and she but she had a, a social media meme go viral.

It might have been from some of her writing where she was trying to describe for men, in her words, Jenna Fischer from The Office.

Why are you not getting laid?

And and she said, do you know where the vacuum cleaner is?

Are there certain things that you can help with more?

Mhm.

Do you want my attention?

You've got my attention.

And then the response to a lot of that from a lot of the men reading that was, well, when my partner doesn't want me, I'm going to the gym more often to try to look better.

Mhm.

And Jenna Fischer was going, you're going to the wrong place.

Find the vacuum, find the cleaning supplies, help me out.

>> A little.

>> Make sense to you?

>> Yeah.

I mean, it's funny.

>> It's funny.

If the laundry.

It's a sexual act.

>> It's folded.

But it is, right?

>> It's a sign that you sort of.

You you care.

You see me, you know, I matter to you because you're you're opening up time for me.

When you do that and when you're opening up time, then I can be with you.

I have time to be with you.

Right?

I don't have to do everything.

>> Is that why that the most well lined, well-known line from the movie, The breakup with Jennifer Aniston and Vince Vaughn?

Vince Vaughn says, you want me to do the dishes?

And she said, I don't want you to do the dishes.

I want you to want to do the dishes.

And he says, why would I want to do the dishes?

>> Mhm.

>> Totally disconnected.

>> Mhm.

>> I mean, it's fiction, but there's a reason.

There's a reason that's the most viral clip from probably that movie.

>> Mhm.

>> Okay.

So when you're working with couples, then does this turn a light bulb on or do you get resistance on these points?

>> Um, yes and no.

Right.

People want it to be, they want to be, right.

So they think they know what's going on, even though they've tried everything based on what they think the problem is.

And it hasn't worked.

But you know, once, once we talk a little bit more about specific life examples from their from their relationship, it starts to sink in, especially this, um, that's one big thing that seems to, uh, you know, um, light a light bulb sort of like, yes, you're right, this is not always going to match.

And it's not, doesn't have to be a problem as long as we know how to talk about it and how to bridge the gap rather than we are on different sides.

That is the one thing.

And the other thing is, um, understanding sexual desire as not just a biological phenomenon and as something that requires openness and willingness to start and, um, let it develop.

>> So let me close this section.

Then I'm going to read a little bit of feedback.

And then, um, after our break, we're going to talk a little bit more about what our guest Eleni Economides, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified sex therapist, what she sees as the effect of a growing culture of porn and technology, and sometimes video games.

I mean, like people are on tech a lot, sometimes a lot more than we're actually talking to each other.

And I want to talk about what the effects on relationships could be with that.

Um, but just to kind of close this loop with couples, if the typical imbalance you see is the man wants more in a heterosexual relationship, a man wants more, a woman is good with less.

And that creates this chasm.

Um, we're talking about how the man can understand it.

But what do you talk about with women who say, you know, well, maybe I want to feel differently or maybe I, um, you know, what's going on with my libido because I'm the man in this conversation.

I just want to leave the room and let you talk for 20 minutes.

And because this is not my department, but I appreciate the fact that you reached out and wanted to discuss this because you see it as an issue.

So what are you talking about with women?

>> Yes.

Um, so I helped them understand, uh, lower sexual desire.

Yes.

70% of the time it is her that, uh, she struggles with lower sexual desire.

I help him understand why this is happening, right?

So we are raised to have a negative relationship with women, to have a negative relationship with sex to, to suppress our sexuality.

Because, um, you know, somehow for us, there's a double standard, right?

For boys.

You know, boys are going to be boys being sexual.

>> And you think that double standard still exists pretty prominently, despite all the work and the culture.

>> For sure, for sure.

>> So women are raised with this negative view of sex.

>> Yes.

Negative view of sex.

They're discouraged to, you know, express themselves sexually.

Right.

Um, and they start to develop this sort of like fearful relationship, right?

That creates sexual shame.

Sexual shame is very prominent.

Um, but also purity culture.

It's still very much alive.

The idea that, you know, the less experience you have, the less partners you have, you're more, excuse me, valuable partner, like more, you know, wanted as a partner because you're not damaged goods.

>> Um, hold on, just before you continue this purity culture thing.

>> Um.

>> Who perpetrates that women or men do men online, they want more pure women.

>> Well, they don't want more pure women, but they will not marry a woman who is very.

>> Much out of touch with the culture online.

Yeah.

Okay.

>> The.

Right.

So they will marry the one that is, you know, um, more inexperienced and clean, quote, unquote.

>> Is this where that phrase people say, what's your body count?

Like?

Men are always.

>> Asking that kind.

>> Of thing.

Yeah, right.

They will, they will sleep with a woman who's experienced and, you know, but.

>> Enjoys it.

>> But not Mary.

>> I mean, we're over generalizing.

>> Of course, of course.

But in that part.

>> Is the sentiment.

The sentiment is that, you know, we worked so hard to have this equality and this idea that, you know, sex is normal, it's healthy, it's neutral.

It's not a bad thing.

Everybody has it.

That's why we're all in this earth.

Right?

But then for women, it carries this moral value and who they are as people.

>> That men are not required.

>> To know.

>>, feel.

>> About, know.

>> It doesn't matter how many partners you have, it doesn't say anything about your character and about your you know, what kind of person you are.

But for a woman, it will.

>> So when you reached out to us, you used.

The word patriarchal.

Is that.

Is this related here?

>> Yes, yes.

So, so because we are raised in a patriarchal society, uh, women develop this socially programed sexual anxiety.

>>, socially programed sexual anxiety.

>> Yes.

Okay.

>> So, it's all of those sort of like internalized beliefs and narratives about sex and women and men, right?

That create a lot of shame, a lot of fear of judgment and anxiety about when are the right conditions for me to engage?

Because the only right condition for a woman to engage in sex is if she's loved, right?

Because if I'm having sex, if I'm having a one night stand, it's a shameful thing because I'm only doing it for sex unless it carries some sort of like, value of love.

It's frowned upon by both men and women.

Right?

So most of the time you're not gonna, you know, most of the time you can know that you're loved, but you may not feel it at all times when you are with your partner, right?

That's why women talk a lot about I want to feel connected.

I want to feel loved before.

I want to have sex.

Have you heard that before?

>> Of course.

>> Right, right.

But why?

Our brain is conditioned to look for that requirement before we say yes to sex.

And if we just had a fight with our partner and we're not very close and connected, our brain knows to not have desire for it.

>> All right.

Now, this is where you're connecting.

I was wondering how you're going to connect this, because part of what you were talking about was the way that boys and girls and then young men and women grow up seeing sex and the differences and why that might affect behaviors or stereotypes or reputations growing up.

But once you're either in a marriage or committed relationship, what you're saying is all of those things that get programed from a young age still manifest in an ongoing relationship.

>> Yes.

>> And can drive down desire.

>> Yes.

Mhm.

Okay.

>> But also she learned to have sex for him, right.

So her pleasure was, is not at the forefront in her mind.

Or maybe sometimes.

I mean, actually that's not true.

A lot of men really care about their partners sexual pleasure.

It's very important for them that she enjoys it.

But she was not raised to think that or to search for.

>> It, or.

>> To think it's.

>> Okay.

>> Or to think it's okay to think it's, you know, it's like he wants to focus on her.

And she's like, oh, no, no, no, no, I'm okay.

I'm okay.

>> So you're gonna need that.

>> So you kind of deprogram some of your clients.

>> On this.

Yes.

>> That's what we do.

We.

>> Yeah.

>> Does it work?

>> It does.

It does.

Yeah.

We rewire the brain, the beliefs around sex.

We poke holes and, you know, debunk myths that, you know, all he wants is sex.

Not true.

Right?

He wants you.

He wants sex with you.

Right.

Um, or he cares about is not just his pleasure.

Right.

Um, so yeah, we just break it down and look at the evidence, right?

It's actually not like a lot of women believe stuff that they don't even know why they believe that or who they learned it from.

>> Um.

>> Was it school?

Was it their caregivers?

Because they're like, nobody talked about sex.

I don't know why I think that because nobody told me this, but I still think that I don't know, sex is dirty or, you know, it's not the most important thing in a relationship.

And I'm not saying it is the most important thing in a relationship, but when you believe it's not important, then you're not going to look for opportunities to have it.

You're just going to be like, oh, you know, it's like, you know, if we have time, then maybe or if the conditions are right, if the kids are in bed and if the dishes are washed and if the dog is walked and then right, it's like, then maybe it's a good time to have it because nothing else, you know, uh, is a priority.

Now.

>> But you're saying this deprogramming can work.

>> Yes, it can.

>> Well, let's take this only break of the hour.

We're going to come back and get some feedback from the audience for Eleni Economides, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist.

She's a certified sex therapist and a certified life coach.

And we're going to come right back to that feedback on the other side of this only break.

I'm Evan Dawson Tuesday on the next Connections in our first hour, Randi Stone joins us from the University of Rochester talking about the possibility that Vladimir Putin would want to invade another European country to try to take advantage of a weak US.

And what happens next, then, in our second hour, Compeer wants us to scroll less and connect more.

How do we do that?

Talk to you Tuesday.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

All right, before I get to your emails, I have a phone call.

Keith and Victor wants to weigh in.

Hi, Keith.

Go ahead.

>> Evan, how's everybody doing?

>> Great, sir.

>> I would just.

>> Like to preferences.

I'm older, and, um, I'm just having a really good time in my life now.

Now, when I was a young.

I'm a baby boomer.

I'd be willing to bet anything that nobody in our generation knew anything about sex.

It was trial and error.

And then you, you, you finally figure it out.

Um, if you're dating and you were involved in premarital sex, you realize it might have been enjoyable.

It was fun.

Then you fall in love, you get married, you do it as an expression of love.

And then you say, well, wait a minute.

Let's see if we can have some kids.

And then you do it to procreate, and then you get into a grind where, okay, it's Friday night, the kids are sleeping, but there's many, probably about 5 or 6 different reasons.

People have sex.

And there's probably just as many as to why they don't.

And I think that's become the problem.

Um, with the younger generation.

I can't speak to them, but I see the way, you know, people are dressed, people are asked what they see online and what they see online is not a true representative of what sex is other than pornography.

And even that's not real.

So I think it it's got to be difficult to counsel somebody, um, who might be having sexual problems.

And I'm using air quotes because if the couples aren't compatible, that's the problem.

But if they're individuals, there's no problem.

Does any of that make sense?

>> Eleni if you want him to clarify, go ahead.

>> But what do you think?

>> I didn't get the last part.

If they're individuals.

>> Yeah.

Give me the distinction, Keith.

>> Yeah.

Help us understand the distinction.

There.

>> If you're if you're a couple and you're having sexual problems, that means you're having sexual problems together.

But if you're individual, all of a sudden you're not married.

You may not have any sexual problems because sometimes just being together with the same person can become problematic.

So I think you need open discussion.

Everybody has fantasies.

I mean, way back in the Stone age, like in the 60s, you didn't talk about fantasy.

You didn't talk about anything because nobody my age really knew anything because they didn't teach sex ed.

They didn't talk about condoms.

You you had to talk to the you had to have the courage to go see a pharmacist and ask them for a condom.

Now you walk into Walmart and there on the shelf.

>> Yeah.

So, so Keith, let me just jump in here.

I mean, one of the great Golden Girls episodes was Betty White.

Was it Betty White's character?

Was it Rose?

They were in the pharmacy.

Megan Mack knows every Golden Girls episode wasn't there.

And was it for Dorothy?

Well, one of them, they needed condoms and they wanted to be discreet.

And the pharmacist, you know, like condoms on aisle for.

>> Like.

>> The whole store could hear it, you know?

And the Golden Girls are horrified to Keith.

And that was in the 1980s, of course, that show.

But but Keith's I think what he's driving at here is he came of age at a time when there was no discussion about it.

There was a lot of trial and error, and there's supposed to be more discussion.

But if you're an individual who's struggling, you're just an individual struggling.

If you're in a relationship now, you've got a problem.

How can you match up?

Can you talk about it?

Can can you learn to be a better communicator?

Um, you know, can you because, you know, Keith.

Yeah.

I mean, like people all have different ideas on what they want, but not everybody wants the same things.

How do you become a better communicator about that?

How do you find a way through that?

>> Mhm.

>> By not assuming that it should just happen naturally.

>> Mhm.

>> And that, you know, the pieces should fall together on their own.

If this is the right partner for you, then there's no problem, right?

Pieces fall into place.

It should happen naturally.

It's spontaneous.

And therefore, when it's not.

It's having to talk about it.

We think it means there is a problem, but there is no problem talking about it and having open communication about, hey, do you want to try this?

What do you think about that?

Like we're, we're afraid that we're going to be judged by our partner if we make suggestions and recommendations of how to spice up the sex life, how to bring in novelty, right.

If you're willing to talk about it, you're going to find a lot of, like Keith said, people have fantasies, they have curiosities.

They want to try things to, to spice things up.

When I say that, I mean just, you know, change up the routine, right?

But this fear of judgment and this idea of, you know, what if it doesn't go well, there's a lot of anxiety around, um, trying something new and not having it be this amazing experience that you thought it was going to be.

But communication and keeping it open and, um, checking with each other, how, how was that?

Was that yay or nay?

Should we do it again or not?

Um, it's a, it's a valuable thing.

>> Keith.

Thank you.

Let me get Shawn in Rochester on the phone next.

Hi, Shawn.

Go ahead.

>> Hi, Evan.

Um, I just had a quick question as far as, like, because I know you guys just touched on the fact that like, it's a double standard for women and promiscuity.

Um, I was just in a three year relationship, um, with somebody that's about 30 years older than me.

And we had a great sexual chemistry.

Um, but being that I was open and honest with him when we first met about, you know, the body count and my promiscuity, uh, we pretty much got in a situation where when, when we weren't together or we weren't having sex, there was a lot of mistrust from him because of my past.

And like, how do you navigate that or try to fix that?

>> Uh, Shawn, hang there for a sec.

Don't hang up.

I'm going to put you on hold.

I'm going to let Eleni respond, and then we'll bring you back if, uh, to clarify anything here.

Go ahead.

Eleni.

What do you think?

>> Well, that's part of the what I was talking about earlier, right?

It's sort of like there's this morality clause in how many partners you've had.

So people or a man might think they cannot trust you because if you like sex too much, or if you've had too many partners, that may mean that you're not trustworthy.

>> Well, you're saying it's rare that a man would be viewed the same way.

>> If a man has a lot of partners.

Nobody.

>> A man's had a lot of partners.

If a woman's had a lot of partners, there might be something wrong there, or there might be a trust issue.

>> Mhm.

Okay.

>> What does it mean?

That she had so many partners?

Right.

Is she, you know, not easily satisfied.

It's sort of like being thought of as a problem for a woman to have many partners before or a lot of experience.

Somehow it's something is off.

>> So let me ask something on Shawn's behalf, and then I'll have Shawn clarify.

I don't want to assume that Shawn's.

I think Shawn's ex or previous partner, you know, was malicious in this.

What you are teaching us this hour is that might just be something that's inculcated over time.

>> That's right.

>> You know, and whether you even realize that double standard or not.

>> Correct.

>> So what can someone like Shawn do if those trust issues are arising?

I mean, trust issues can kill a relationship.

What can someone do with a partner who's not trusting them?

Then.

>> Um, I mean, obviously having a conversation with those two partners, right?

Like, so how was, you know, what did you like, like actually understanding what did it mean that this person had many partners?

Does it mean that they like sex a lot?

Does it mean that they just couldn't find, you know, a person that they could connect with and they were changing?

Like, what does it even mean?

Understanding.

Oh, okay.

How did that happen?

How did that come to be like, did you just like sex a lot?

Or I mean, maybe, maybe this person was cheated a lot, right?

And that's why they had different partners and that's why.

But we don't know, right?

If we're not curious to understand.

>> But what if the answer is just, well, you know, I'm, I'm a pretty sexual person.

>> And that's.

>> Why I.

>> Enjoyed that.

Could be.

>> And that's.

>> That's a. Legitimate answer.

>> It can be a very legit answer, right.

And it doesn't mean that you're not trustworthy or that you're a quote, unquote cheater.

Right.

Um.

>> But, but you got to confront that conversation directly.

>> Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, does this partner have any other reason to, to doubt, um, you know, being able to trust just the number of previous partners should not be a reason.

>> So let me ask Shawn about that then.

So, um, you want to elaborate a little on the story now that you've heard some from, uh, Eleni there, Shawn.

>> Yeah, it was, it was a lot of the fact that it was previous partners, which caused him to kind of feel like I was always looking for something or looking at other people, which I wasn't.

And mind you, I, um, I am bisexual.

So he would look at women and like, comment on them.

But if he assumed that I was looking at a man, then it's like we're arguing.

And on top of that, at the time of my promiscuity, I was, um, having a. I was having an issue with alcoholism.

So, um, being that that was a factor.

And then I stopped drinking when I was with him.

But if I did drink, he still would feel some type of way about things.

So it was just a lot.

And I was trying to mitigate the trust and being as open and honest with him as possible.

But I don't know, it could have been just that the previous life that I lived and the fact that we did have such a big age gap, I'm not sure, but I was curious to know, how about that, do.

>> You think do you think there's a double standard?

Shawn, do you think, um, that.

Yeah, yeah.

>> Every time, um, it gets brought up and we talked about body count and everything, he will say, oh, that doesn't matter.

I'm a man.

Or for instance, it was an issue or that came up and, uh, I've never cheated in a relationship ever in my life.

And he said he cheated in previous relationships, but that doesn't matter because it was reasons behind him cheating versus.

So it's like, I can't trust you.

You can't trust me.

Even though I've never had a history of cheating, but I can't.

I'm supposed to trust you and you have all these different histories.

So it's definitely a double standard.

>> Well, Shawn, good luck to you, Lenny.

What else do you want to say there?

>> Um.

It's true.

There is a double standard, right.

Um, if you're, if you have, if you like sex too much or if you're just enjoy sex in relationships.

Um, many, many men won't trust you.

>> Yeah.

I mean, that has to be very, very dangerous for relationships.

Continued success.

I would think so.

>> That's right.

And that's why a lot of women are very careful and very cautious and very anxious and sort of worried about, um, engaging in sex freely.

And, uh, you know, uh, claiming their pleasure because it's, um, they fear they're going to be judged and they will be judged.

>> Uh, a listener named Kate wants to know what about the increase in the use of SSRIs, which can have a negative effect, negative effect on libido.

>> What about it?

It's true.

It's true.

Right.

SSRIs will negatively impact libido.

And, um, now you have to be honest with yourself.

Sometimes the libido is low.

Even before an SSRI, um, came into the picture, um, but then sometimes it's just easier to attribute it to that if you're not very either, you know, aware of it from before or open with yourself and your partner about it.

It becomes a little bit of a scapegoat.

But the actual reality is that they do impact sexual desire.

There are things that you can do.

You can try and find the one that has the least negative sexual side effects for you.

Or you could also, um, you know, sometimes they, there is a, you know, a couple other things that you can try adding another medication to counteract the side effects of the SSRI, but it's, it's, yeah, it can really impact much like birth control, much like antihistamines.

>> Antihistamines.

>> Yeah.

And a lot of people take allergy medicine.

>> Antihistamines and libido.

>> Mhm, mhm.

>> Mhm.

Yeah.

Okay.

So just good things to know for individuals.

For couples.

Yes.

Okay.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> And you do, you know, weigh the risk and benefit of being on an SSRI, right?

If you're really treating anxiety and depression, you know, probably better for your life to have.

>> That a lot of people.

>> Right, than to have, uh, you know, low sex drive.

But listen, this is huge because it comes back to this issue of waiting to feel horny in order to be sexual.

And when, when we believe that to be the truth, then an SSRI will negatively impact our libido.

And then we're going to think that we can't, you know, sex is not in the picture because of that, but learning to rely on your responsive sexual desire, the desire that shows up after you start, you know, how many times people you know, I'm not in the mood, but once we get going, it's it's nice and I enjoy it.

And every time I tell myself, I should remember how nice it was because, you know, um, who knows when the next time is going to be right?

So most people have responsive sexual desire, even if they're responsive sexual desire.

Do I need to further explain?

>> No, I don't think so.

I think that's the difference between someone wanting to initiate on their own and someone who might need others to initiate and then >> Get in the flow.

So if.

>> You are an SSRI, you're not going to have spontaneous sexual desire, as much horniness, but you might have responsive and you might just not even know it or take advantage of it or not think it's normal.

A lot of women come to me for low libido, but in reality they're like, well, yeah, once we start, everything is great.

I enjoy, I have fun, I have an orgasm, and it's great.

We feel more connected afterward, but I just don't want it.

And maybe that's not a problem that you don't think about it and you're not, you know, fantasizing what you're in front of the computer.

But if you're willing to like create the space and the time and, you know, step into a mindset of, I'm going to start engaging in sex so that I can get horny.

It can be a beautiful, um, explanation of how you can have good sex until your 70s and 80s.

>> Okay, back to the emails here.

And turns out we might have needed two hours with you.

I thought, you know, are people going to share their story?

>> That's right.

Once you start talking about.

>> Once you.

>> Get going.

Want to know?

>> It just just took one.

Yeah.

Linda says, uh, to me, it is no mystery why women are losing their desire for sex.

When you hear the statistics that one out of five women in this country are raped, and the statistic that one out of three women worldwide are abused by their partners, it does something to the psyche.

I'm a lesbian, 72 years old, and I came out when I was 22.

For me, it was a choice.

I think it was about role rejection and the awareness that most of the physical violence in the world is perpetrated by men.

And because men are from Mars, the emotional intimacy is way more difficult to nurture.

My father used to ask me over and over why I hate men.

I said, dad, I don't hate men.

I just don't trust them.

I also am very concerned about our young men having total access to pornography, mostly degrading and demeaning, if not violent, toward women, when that is how you learn about sex at a young age.

How can you grow up to be a kind, sensitive, caring lover?

In closing, I would like to say that I have some very good, gentle, caring men in my life.

But as women are losing their rights by the day and men still hold all the power and wealth, I'm surprised that any woman wants to have sex any more.

We need men not just to agree with us, but to get on the front lines and fight for us.

That's from Linda.

>> HMM.

>> There's a lot there.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, she's making great points, right?

Um, learning about sex from porn.

That's part of the problem nowadays.

Earlier we talked about, you know, fear around consent and all of that.

The truth is that, you know, pornography really depicts a very inaccurate and unrealistic view of sex.

And there's a lot of violence, quote, unquote, like aggressiveness to it nowadays.

And that has become an issue.

>> Do you think it is messing up teenagers.

>> Not just teenagers.

Yeah.

Not just teenagers people.

I mean, I have I have young clients who have developed sexual pain disorders because their partner was, you know, engaging in rough sex because that's what they thought sex is, right.

Hair pulling.

>> And what is a sexual pain disorder?

>> It's pain with sexual.

>> Okay.

So it's not you're not desiring pain during sex.

No.

Struggling to have sex.

>> Without pain?

Yeah.

>> Like having, you know.

Yeah.

Having pain.

>> Because the root of the idea of what sex is supposed to be was aggressive, sort of violent.

That came from porn.

>> Yeah.

A lot of porn depicts, you know, sort of like the pain, the pleasure that's in pain.

Right?

So when they try to reenact that with a partner, they assume she likes that because that's what he sees in porn.

He he sees her enjoying it.

Right.

So he tries to do that in real life.

And she's quiet because she thinks she should take it.

Oh, because you know, right.

I don't know.

I don't know what this should feel.

I know it doesn't feel that good, but I don't want to say anything because this is for him.

Anyways.

>> Back to those old stereotypes.

>> So might as well endure.

And then you endure a few times.

And if you are not going to say no verbally, then your body is going to say no, we're not going to let anything come in.

You can't have that anymore.

So it's going to create the pain.

>> Just another way that porn is actually ruining sex.

>> It's it's very problematic.

It can be very problematic if you don't really know that you're watching a show.

>> Yeah.

Let me just say again, that probably was too generalized.

I mean, I'm not a sex therapist.

I'm not going to make any generalized comments about porn other than to say, if that's how you're learning about sex.

>> That's right.

>> Whoa.

>> Yeah.

And there is porn that's ethical.

That's feminist.

Right?

It's not commercial porn.

That is not porn.

That is very much like more realistic.

And definitely the people engaging in it.

Everybody is consenting and enjoying it.

>> Free range porn.

Okay.

It's probably not as popular as the rest of the stuff.

Unfortunately.

>> Uh.

Unfortunately.

>> So, okay.

So Linda's point there is a fair one.

Absolutely.

Yes.

She's also feeling that she had to tell her dad.

I don't hate men.

I don't trust men.

>> Mhm.

>> I mean, I understand the general construction of her fears.

You know, they're not.

But is there anything you can do with that?

That.

Is there a reason to try to help somebody?

Um, trust men more?

Or do you say, look, look, your experience is your experience.

>> And I get it.

>> I mean, your experience is your experience, right?

And healing from whatever trauma there is, is important.

And, um, um, you know, she's, she's right.

A majority of women has experienced some sort of, you know, sexual microaggression or sexual abuse.

Um, but the majority of clients I see, or at least women with low libido, they have, they haven't, they haven't.

So the low libido is not a result of sexual trauma, right?

Actually, women have sexual trauma.

It's easier for them to ask for help because there is an explanation.

But if it is just socially programed sexual anxiety, they don't they don't understand.

They think there's something wrong with me and the shame around that prevents them from talking about it and getting the help they need.

>> Linda, thank you for the email.

I'll read one more here.

It's from Patrick and he says he's in the other 30%.

He said, I've had a kid.

She'll be five in November.

I find that that's killed my sex drive with my current partner, and that kind of stinks for her.

Um, so just briefly, in our last minute or so here for, um, relationships that you counsel in which they're struggling because they've got young children and they think, well, young children has made it really tough to continue the drive here.

Um, I'm sure that's not new to you.

What would you say to Patrick or others?

>> No, definitely.

That's the most difficult phase in a couple's life.

Having young kids starting to create a family.

Right?

Because the roles and the identities shift so much.

Bodies shift.

So I would want to know a lot more than it's not just having a kid that did this right.

So I would, I would want to like, understand, um, what else Patrick thinks contributes to this, but certainly we're talking about getting to the point now where intimacy has to be intentional.

We have to be a top of mind and creating the space and time for it.

And, uh, otherwise, if we just wait for when we're gonna not feel tired, when there is the right time, when the kids are in bed, it's just not going to happen.

Taking care of ourselves is very important too, right?

Like, you know, much like when you were first dating and you were wearing your nice underwear and you were groomed and your perfumes and your lotions and you felt sexy and good, if you continue doing that, you're going to have more desire in your long term committed relationship.

>> Um, I appreciate you being here this hour.

>> And you said.

>> You said you were surprised that we said yes here, but part of why we said yes is just, you know, um, number one, we don't think there should be any third rails on Connections.

We think you ought to be able to talk about anything.

And if this is troubling a lot of people, and it clearly is, there's a lot of threads that tied together this hour.

People are struggling with dating apps.

People are questioning, you know, what's a healthy use of porn and what's a problem.

People want to know how to connect better in person.

And if there's one takeaway, I think that the audience will have is that if you've ever struggled in your sex life, it doesn't mean your relationship failed.

Probably just means you're normal.

>> Mhm.

>> And I appreciate you being here to, to, to bring that perspective.

Eleni Economides is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified sex therapist, and a certified life coach.

Come back sometime.

>> I would love to.

Thank you for having me.

>> You're going to be invited back here.

We do appreciate you.

And look, I'm not doing any PR for you, Lenny.

You're going to get enough phone calls, but just I want to say, for the people who are wondering, are you taking clients?

>> I am forming a group for women with low libido as we speak.

And that's the only client I can accept right now.

Couples full.

>> I figured you're full here.

Yes.

So I asked because I know people were wondering.

So thank you.

Thank you from all of us at Connections Connections.

Thanks for being with us on these various platforms.

We will be back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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