>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made last February when U.S.

Attorney General Pam Bondi told Fox News that she had the client list of the Epstein files sitting on her desk.

She promised the public that she would release the full Epstein files within days, fulfilling a campaign promise from President Trump.

On February 27th, Bondi claimed to do exactly that.

Within hours, it was clear that she was not telling the truth, and the most prominent critics were far right online influencers who had spent years calling for the full release of the files.

Bondi had simply rereleased portions already public, hoping to satisfy people who wanted the files.

President Trump then said the matter was closed and that people should just move on, but people did not move on.

Republicans in Congress tried to block the release of the files, but by late fall they had no choice, at least legally.

And now we've seen thousands of new pages of documents, but they are heavily redacted, and there is a trove of documentation still under government lock and key.

This hour we have a conversation on the lessons we should take away from this saga, whether we ever see the full files or not.

What's clear is that children were trafficked and targeted, and a lot of powerful people knew it.

This is supposed to be a country where that doesn't happen.

My guest this hour has worked in the protection of children for a long time, and I'm glad to be sitting down with Mary Whittier, interim CEO of the Child Advocacy Center of Greater Rochester.

Welcome back to the show.

Thanks for being back here.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> I don't know a whole lot of people who are fiercer advocates for children than you.

And so I want to start by asking you when people say, you know, release the files, release the files.

Have you been in that chorus?

Do you feel like we're being denied information?

>> Of course.

I think that what are you hiding?

You know, what are you hiding?

And I think that, you know, the whole sex trafficking.

And when we talk about kids, we're talking about kids here.

And, you know, there's a lot of claims.

Well, there's millions of pieces of documentation.

And we got to get through it all.

And we have 400 lawyers working on it.

This was what the Transparency Act, the Epstein Files Transparency Act got passed on November 18th.

They were DOJ was the Department of Justice.

Sorry, I'm talking acronyms a lot.

Yeah.

It's bad.

>> I think you can say DOJ.

>> It's on December 19th was supposed to have reviewed everything released.

And it is a fraction of the files.

There's like 5 million pieces of documentation.

And I think I don't I don't care where you are politically, I don't care who you vote for and all that stuff.

The most Americans want to know, want to know who in power.

Many men, some women, too many men in power who was involved directly or indirectly, who was involved in basically the rape and sexual assault and sexual abuse of children of minors.

Most people want to know that.

>> There was a piece about four, almost five years ago that came out that you know, at first glance, whenever I see the word Pizzagate, I recoil because Pizzagate was was not a real scandal.

And it was, you know, trumpeted by some far right folks as, you know, an underground dungeon in a pizza parlor.

And someone actually went in there with a gun.

And, I mean, it was a mess.

But the piece that I read almost five years ago said the Epstein Files saga is what makes people believe the Pizzagate are real, because sometimes a conspiracy, sometimes a conspiracy is real.

Sometimes there is a conspiracy.

A lot of the times not.

But sometimes there is.

And this is the kind of thing that makes people go, well, what else are you hiding?

>> Oh, of course.

And if you've got nothing to hide, why don't you share the information?

And a lot of people are criticizing.

They've redacted pages and pages all blacked out, and yet you're thinking, okay, well, whose name is in that that you're protecting?

But on the flip side, they say, well, we're doing this to protect the victims.

And some of the victims names have gotten out.

So it's it is, again, we as a country deserve to know this.

We are talking about children here.

And the reality is this in our country, 1 in 10 children, by the time they turn 18 will suffer some form of sexual abuse.

Right?

>> 1 in.

>> 10, 1 in 10.

And actually, that I hate to even say this, but, you know, 30 years ago it used to be 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys.

But, you know, we've made some progress.

It doesn't feel like 1 in 10, because it does seem like the more people talk about child sexual abuse, the more people come out and tell their story and what happened to them.

>> It might be more than that.

>> Oh yes.

But my point is, is that 90% of kids are sexually abused by someone that they know, love and trust, which is why only 10% ever disclose.

And in a situation like this where kids were raped and trafficked and given whether it was money or things that they didn't have because they had nothing and were really completely taken advantage of, and then you've got people that are complicit in this.

It's just I mean, this is the world that we live in at the CAC of Greater Rochester every day.

Right?

So we see kids all the time, and we've been around for over 21 years and have evaluated more than 33,000 children for sexual abuse.

We also evaluate all the kids that have been severely physically abused.

And our team of professionals also investigates all the child fatalities.

So, you know, child abuse is a real thing.

And this is absolutely a part of that.

So when we're talking about, you know, the sex trafficking of minors and you're talking about people in power that are either directly involved or knew something was happened or kind of thought something was happening.

They don't want to say, well, we as a country deserve to know.

>> Listeners, have you got questions, comments as we talk about the lessons from this scandal this hour, you can call the program toll free.

844295 talk.

It's 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you're in Rochester 2639994, you can email the program Connections at wxxi.org.

You can join the chat on YouTube if you're watching on the WXXI News YouTube channel.

We're talking to Mary Whittier, interim CEO of the Child Advocacy Center of Greater Rochester.

So when they talk about, well, you know, we've got to protect the victims here.

I want to talk to you about what it means to truly protect victims.

And I'm thinking about some of what Vice President Vance recently said.

So before JD Vance was even in the Senate back on September 4th, 2021, he had been one of the harshest critics of Donald Trump.

He compared had he compared ten years ago, he compared Trump to Hitler.

Here's what JD Vance tweeted on September 4th, 2021.

He said, quote, remember when we learned that our wealthiest and most powerful people were connected to a guy who ran a literal child sex trafficking ring?

And then that guy died mysteriously in a jail, and now we just don't talk about it.

That was JD Vance September 2021.

Now Vance is vice president.

He says no one is hiding anything and any way.

It takes a long time to go through all the documents and make sure that the victims are protected.

He's flipped entirely.

So what does it mean to to legitimately protect the victim?

What should they be doing in communicating with people who are known victims in redacting documents appropriately?

What should be happening.

>> If they're going to protect victims?

First off, you know, you've got a lot of adult women that are you know, some of them are speaking out, right?

And they so they should be protecting their names, getting permission from them.

They shouldn't.

What they shouldn't be doing is protecting the people that were sexually assaulting and raping and sexually abusing these kids.

So to protect victims, I mean, it's similar to why we get calls all the time at the CAC.

and a lot of times sometimes for media, but they'll say, well, geez, did you have this case, did you have this case?

The media now knows we can't say we had X case or Y case because we are protecting the identity of that child, right?

So we cannot say, oh yes, little Johnny Smith came to what used to be called Bivona Child Advocacy Center.

Now CAC, we can't say that.

Right.

So what we say is it's an opportunity to educate, to educate people that this is the darkest of the dark.

And it happens and it happens every single day.

Again, 1 in 10 kids, by the time they turn 18 will suffer some form of sexual abuse, including the sex trafficking.

Yet less than 1 in 10 disclose that because 90% of kids are sexually abused by someone that they know, love and trust, this is a little different.

This is hush money.

This is threatening.

You are talking about.

Think about it.

The president, United States, no matter who it is, is the most powerful person in the world.

You've got people that are so incredibly powerful, so incredibly rich.

They've got resources, and you're talking about a 14-year-old who can't afford to to buy lunch or can't afford to eat, but so what we need to do is you can you can take the time to redact, you know, some of the the victim names, but I don't believe if you have nothing to hide, Evan, then why has it taken this long?

If you have nothing to hide, then release this information.

>> They can do the work to redact and to protect victims and names, still names, et cetera.

and they can still have documents out by now.

>> 100%, 100%.

>> There's no reason.

talking about this.

This should still be delayed.

>> Like no, no.

And they'll say, well, we got 5 million pieces of documentation.

And and again, it's if we made this a priority and if you, if you talk to anybody, you, you go, you go to a soccer game, you go to your, your job, you go to a Wegmans.

You look on social media, people just keep saying, release the files, release the files.

And now they're like, okay, well, we came up with this this Epstein Files Transparency Act.

It doesn't does it feel transparent?

I don't know, not really.

>> Well, especially when The White House spends a lot of time talking about Bill Clinton.

And and listen, Bill Clinton's in the files a lot.

I don't think this should be Partizan.

Absolutely.

It's a disaster.

If it's Partizan it does not matter to me as an American and it shouldn't matter to most people if it's Bill Clinton, if it's Donald Trump who is in there, put it out there.

>> Absolutely.

>> And then let the consequences come to those people.

>> I agree 100%, and I think that we're in line with with most of the people in this country, it doesn't matter.

That's why I said most people it doesn't matter political party.

They just they want to know.

And people then need to be held accountable.

It's so much of the issues and the dynamics around sexual abuse and sexual assault.

There's something that Dr.

Roland Summit called the Sexual Abuse Accommodation Syndrome, and it talks about how children accommodate.

Right.

And they why don't they tell why people say this all the time?

Well, if that really happened, they of course they would disclose.

Are you kidding me?

Most kids don't disclose because they feel ashamed or embarrassed.

This.

Can you imagine if it's some rich person and they can pay you off?

Or they'll say, I'll kill your mother, I'll kill your brother, I'll kill your dog.

You'll never.

You're going to get deported from this country.

Like these are kids.

>> Well, and then the other aspect is there's a clip I want to listen to here.

The other aspect of what may have happened with some of the kids who were trafficked is you start telling these kids you have no life and no future.

I can give you a future.

You can fly on planes with with powerful people.

You can go to beautiful islands.

You're going to have to play by our rules, but we're going to give you a better life.

>> And we're going to give you a great bed to sleep in.

And all the food you want, and clothes and designer, and you think that enticement.

But that's part also, Evan, of the human trafficking.

>> They trap you in with that.

>> Very much and then you're hooked and then you're locked in.

And it's this constant push pull and it causes so much emotional damage because, well, but at least I've got a bed to sleep in.

At least I'm at least I'm warm.

At least I'm getting something to eat.

At least they say, you know they care about me.

Like, yeah, so I have to give a. So.

So what can I say?

on the.

>> I don't know, I, I, I don't know.

How about this euphemized in the future and then we'll check to see if that's okay.

But yes, I understand what you're saying.

Yeah.

So let me edit this.

What you're saying is they may say so I have to engage in sexual activity that might be new to me, might be unwanted for me.

Almost certainly is unwanted weight.

>> But let me interrupt you.

Not sexual activity.

Rape.

>> Okay.

Okay.

>> Okay.

Let's call it what it is.

>> Thank you.

>> This is not consent.

>> I'm trying to euphemize for for the sake of editing on the airwaves.

But.

But we shouldn't euphemize so much that we sanitize this.

>> 1,000,000%.

>> Okay?

And so I appreciate that distinction.

Now, which brings me to this.

You had a conversation with our colleague Adam Chodak, and I thought it was a really good conversation.

And he referenced a point that was being made on The Megan Kelly Show.

Megyn Kelly has her own podcast and show, former Fox News host, former NBC host.

She was having a conversation with Batya Ungar.

Sargon, who has her own show, and they were talking about the idea that it's different if the kid is 15 or 14, but looks like an adult versus eight years old or young, and I want to listen to this clip because this clip got a lot of purchase.

A lot of people thought, yeah, this is a good point here.

And maybe the kids involved actually wanted this.

Maybe they were consenting.

Maybe it wasn't a case of just against their will.

Let's listen to what Megyn Kelly had to say.

>> As for Epstein, I've said this before, but just as a reminder, I do know somebody very, very close to this case who is in a position to know virtually everything, not everything, but virtually everything.

And this person has told me from the start, years and years ago, that Jeffrey Epstein, in this person's view, was not a pedophile.

This is this person's view who was there for a lot of this, but that he was into the barely legal type like he liked 15-year-old girls.

And I realize this is disgusting.

I'm definitely not trying to make an excuse for this.

I'm just giving you facts that he wasn't into like eight year olds, but he liked the very young teen types that could pass for even younger than they were, but would look legal to a passerby.

And that is what I believed.

And that was what I reliably was told for many years.

And it wasn't until we heard from Pam Bondi that they had tens of thousands of videos of alleged, forgive me, they used to call it kiddy porn.

Now they call it child sexual abuse material.

On his computer that for the first time I thought, oh no, he was an actual pedophile.

I mean, only a pedophile gets off on young children abuse videos.

She's never clarified it.

I don't know whether it's true.

I have to be honest.

I don't really trust Pam Bondi's word on the Epstein matters anymore.

Yeah.

So I don't know what's true about him, but we have yet to see anybody come forward and say, I was a like a I was under ten.

I was under 14 when I first came within his purview.

Look, it's you can say that's a distinction without a difference.

>> No it's not I.

>> Think there is a difference.

There's a difference between a 15-year-old and a 5-year-old.

You know, it's just whatever.

>> All right.

That's Megyn Kelly talking to Batya Ungar.

Sargon, what do you hear there?

Mary Whittier?

>> No 15 five.

So you're going to compare what's worse?

>> Raping a 5-year-old or raping a 15-year-old?

No.

And I don't care how old the 15-year-old looks.

To me this is justifying the justifications.

Are you kidding?

No age of consent in the state of New York is 17.

Across the country, every state's a little different.

16, 17, or 18 is age of consent.

And remember age of consent.

Okay, so let's say it's 17 here in New York.

And a 17-year-old is having a relationship, a consensual sexual relationship with a 19-year-old.

Right.

So that that's consent.

As long as there's not abuse of power, that sort of thing.

You have a 17-year-old with a 47-year-old that's a different animal, like.

So it is about power.

It is about control.

It is about taking what they want.

And this rash, it feels like a rationalization.

You're going to say, well, boy.

>> She was 14, but she looked 18.

>> Or boy, you're sick.

You are really sick.

If you rape a if you sodomize a 5-year-old, you're really sick.

You're just sort of sick.

If you sodomize a 15-year-old.

No, I'm not buying that.

No, these are kids.

These are impressionable kids.

Remember, this is a little different because, again, age of consent in New York State is is 17.

It's the youngest is in the States is 16.

But it's like you're going to rationalize that and say, well, they look a little older.

Or I actually.

>> Thought they were barely legal.

That was the phrase Megyn Kelly used that they wanted girls who were barely legal.

And then Megyn Kelly says, you know, like 15.

>> Yeah.

>> Which was to me totally incongruous in the clip.

>> Yes.

And and I feel like, how are we not all ready to throw up whether they're 5 or 15?

It's let me tell you, it is.

You cannot justify this.

He is a predator, was a predator because he's no longer with us.

And we, Evan, we see it every day at the CAC.

We see it every day, and we have kids and victims as young as six months old, all the way up to we see we see kids up to the age of 18.

And then we also see over 18 that have intellectual developmental disabilities, which is a whole other ball of wax, because a lot of those times, those kids are nonverbal and they can't even tell you what happened.

But we see this abuse every single day.

We we evaluate about 18 to 2000 kids a year.

And again, a lot of these kids, most of them do not tell or if they disclose or kind of dipping their toe in the water to see, geez, is someone going to believe me?

And then if nobody does, then it's even worse.

and I think with the situation like this, like you said, it's enticement.

They go after they've gone after the vulnerable.

A lot of these kids didn't have much broken families.

Right?

Didn't didn't have a lot of resources, a lot maybe in poverty, you know, and then some of them was, well, my one friend said I could make some money, I could still go to school, but I don't have any money.

And I got to help pay for my for my family back at home.

And, and so if I, if I do this with my friend, then at least I can, you know, help my family back.

It's just it's very, very complex.

This whole issue, I mean, what's not complex is right and wrong.

It's wrong.

Right.

But but for kids, for kids, it's this is the only way I can afford to help feed my family if I engage.

>> But that's different than consent.

>> Oh, these kids are not consenting.

I can tell you that right now.

They're not consenting.

>> No.

Well.

So.

Okay, let me read some feedback from listeners here.

First of all, Andrew says, is your guest saying if 215 year olds have sex, they're both going to jail for underage.

>> No.

>> Okay.

So do you want to explain?

>> No.

Sure.

And you know, some of us.

Well, no, not me.

But, you know, there are people in the community that at 15 they had sex, right?

So the the issue is the imbalance of power.

Right now.

Technically, now I'm not a lawyer.

So don't don't quote me on this, but I think there are some things that technically they say are illegal.

So you're not supposed to have sex before you're 17.

Does anybody follow that rule?

I don't know, but no 15-year-old?

Absolutely not.

It's the imbalance of power.

But you know that whole phrase, I'm dating myself here, so don't ask me how old I am.

But, you know, 16 will get you 20 that that whole thing.

>> 15 will get you 30, 16.

I've heard variations of it over the years.

>> Yes.

Right.

So no, it is, it is illegal.

>> By the way, we should explain a legal phrase.

Have sex with a 16-year-old.

You're going to get 20 years in prison.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, I think it's.

I think it's obvious, but go ahead.

>> I know.

So no 215 year olds are having.

>> Or I should say, I'm going to use your term rape.

A 16-year-old.

>> Yeah.

Correct.

>> If you're 40 years old and you rape a 16-year-old, you're going to get 20.

>> You're going to go, yeah, you're going to.

get better.

It is good job.

good job.

Okay.

And I think but there are some you know, sometimes you've got like a 17-year-old and a 20-year-old.

People are like oh you know like well he's older and but no we're not we are not talking about that.

We are talking about someone taking advantage of a minor and the ability to consent.

However, your listener, Andrew, 215 year olds, we're going to pretend here for a minute, 15-year-old girl is completely inebriated, completely under the influence, and the 15-year-old boy is not.

And he has sex.

I'm putting people can't see me, but I'm putting that in quotes.

Sex.

No, that is, she cannot consent.

>> Yeah, okay.

>> She's incapacitated.

>> Circumstances matter.

>> Of course.

Sure.

Of course.

>> But just the general question Andrew has.

If 215 year olds who are dating have sex, no one's sending them to jail.

>> But I'm going to say, for the record, please protect yourself.

Yeah.

Please protect yourself.

>> Yeah.

My goodness gracious.

>> Yes.

>> okay.

now let me work through some other feedback here.

Steve.

Where is it?

Steve?

Steve just said, thanks for keeping this at the forefront of the conversation.

It seems like there's a lot of things going on with the government right now being used to distract from this issue.

Steve and Rochester, I can't speak to intentional distraction from the issue.

Steve.

I can just tell you a lot of the people who spent years saying this should be an absolute priority are now in power, and it is not a priority.

aureus says if they if legally they were required to release all the files by a certain date, is there some form of penalty for still not doing so?

Is there any legal recourse to force the release of the remaining documents?

Thanks for your incredible reporting and programing.

Yeah, I mean, the answer is there's not much right now.

I mean, like you're literally saying the United States Congress not able to get information out.

>> Exactly.

And then I read just recently, on January 20th or 21st, then it's supposed to be, okay, well, we'll have our report then.

You just wonder, like, you know, is it a lot of material?

Yes, it is, but you've known about this for years.

You know what I mean.

You've known about this for years.

So allegedly, on January 20th they're supposed to come out with more information and again we want to protect the certainly the victim's identity, unless they go on CNN or MSNBC.

Fox News or whatever, or XXY, and they.

>> Want to wrote a book as one of them.

>> Absolutely, absolutely.

And in fact so we at the Child Advocacy Center do have hosts, one of the largest child abuse conferences in the country and certainly the largest in the northeast part of the country.

And I was not here last year, but last year we had Julie K Brown, who was from the Miami Herald, who really.

>> Amazing reporter.

>> Right.

really had a lot of responsibility for kind of blowing this case up, like, and just uncovering a lot of information.

Yeah.

And so, you know, one of the this is January is human trafficking, National Human Trafficking Prevention Month.

And actually at our conference, we are having a couple of guest speakers not local, but we've got speakers from all over the country that come and a lot is on human trafficking and sex trafficking and, and, and we've got local resources here too.

And I do want to say this, Evan, if you have listeners out there or you have people out there in I know you have a you know, your audience is maybe not necessarily, you know, the the young kids, but if you are sitting there suffering in silence or you have never disclosed that you've been sexually abused and you are 47 years old, I just want to say, please call us at the Child Advocacy Center.

585935 7800 or visit our website at Grok.

G r o g r r o cag org.

Because I cannot tell you, in all the years I have worked for again bavona now CAC how many adult survivors have have come up to me?

And that was the first time they've ever disclosed this, that they were sexually abused, that they were raped, that they were taken advantage of, that they were paid for sex, whatever it was.

And just the notion of, oh, my God, this is the dirty little secret.

Oh my God, we don't talk about this.

You know, the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

We're going to put our heads in the sand.

We cannot do that.

We're better today than when I was a young social worker in CPS.

You know, 35 years ago.

But we have so far to go.

We have got to talk about issues like this, issues about child abuse, issues around domestic violence, issues around power and control because it is so pervasive.

And it's not just here, it's all over the world.

>> So let me just ask you a question that is maybe related and is not about kids, but is about the idea of professional sex work.

There's a lot of debate about whether adults should be able to simply engage in sex work, if they so choose, and on one side, you've got a very libertarian aspect that says, you know your body, your choice, and you know sort of what market you can create for it.

And the risk.

>> That yourself out.

Right.

>> Then the other side says is it likely to pull in people who are already really vulnerable and already really hurting or feeling some sort of desperation?

And is there sort of an imbalance there?

And should that either be regulated or banned outright here?

do you have any disposition towards that?

>> Well, this is what I will tell you.

the vast majority of prostitutes, whatever term you want to use, have have childhood trauma, most of which is being sexually abused as a child, most being exposed to domestic violence.

The vast majority of female inmates, almost 90, 97, 98%, have childhood trauma, mostly.

>> Female inmates that.

Hi.

>> Yes.

And they'll say, oh, you know, they you know, they were they're in there for drug use and this that, you know, how many people that are abused and abused, drugs and alcohol.

And I don't mean this for everybody, but there is trauma that they are masking.

So female inmates, this has been studied and spoken about.

Same thing with prostitution.

So then now we're switching to this.

Well, you know, I'm a college kid.

I can't get a job.

But man, I can make a thousand bucks.

So why should I do that?

So, you know, I'm not going to.

That's.

>> I know it's outside of the work that you do.

>> It is.

However, I got to think to myself, self, I think about self worth.

I think about self esteem.

I think about risk, risky behavior.

I think about for them is that is it so desperate to be able to do that.

And a lot of those women will share with you really, really rough childhood, really dysfunctional lot of trauma and a lot around child abuse.

And 60% of children that that we see and that are child abuse survivors suffer what we call poly victimization.

Right?

So they're not just sexually abused, they're exposed to domestic violence.

There's substance use in the home.

There's mental illness, there's neglect.

There's you know, poverty.

So it, you know, there's a lot of kids.

It's not just, oh, Uncle John raped me.

It's that happened.

And they grew up in a violent home, and they had no food.

And there was educational neglect because they couldn't go to school because they were taking care of their three little siblings.

So 60% of kids suffer from victimization.

And it's it's complicated.

If you look at a lot of drug treatment facilities, a lot of trauma, a lot of.

>> Abuse.

>> Trauma, yes, yes, yes.

And and child abuse and domestic violence, about 50% of the cases that we see at the CAC have DV involved in them, domestic violence.

So it's it's child abuse.

It's sexual abuse or severe physical abuse.

Because remember we also evaluate those kids.

And we also our team of professionals evaluates all the child fatalities.

But the the correlation between child abuse and domestic violence is is huge.

And that connection and which is why we have a very strong connection and affiliation with Willard Domestic Violence Center, because we see their families, they see our families kind of thing.

And it's it's pretty pervasive that way.

>> After we take our only break, I've got more questions from the audience for Mary Whittier, who is joining us, the interim CEO of the Child Advocacy Center of Greater Rochester.

And we're going to talk before the end of the hour about, you know, some of the important lessons that she hopes we are all taking from this.

Again, like I said, off the top, whether we see the full release of Epstein files ever or not, we know enough to be horrified.

And what are the lessons that Mary thinks we all need to take to better protect kids in the future?

We're going to talk about that.

We'll answer your questions if you want to join the program.

844295 talk.

If you want to call the program 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you call from Rochester 2639994, email the program Connections at wxxi.org or join the conversation on the YouTube chat.

If you're watching on WXXI News YouTube channel, we're coming right back on Connections.

Coming up in our second hour, 2025 was a difficult year for American nonprofits.

Roughly 1 in 3 lost some form of funding.

Charitable giving has wavered with the uncertain economy, and nonprofits are trying to do more as demand for their services rises.

We're going to talk to a couple of parents of children with disabilities who also work for Starbridge, which provides some of those services about what they are doing.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

It might be evident to you from the start we're talking about the Epstein files.

We're talking about lessons that we all need in our society to learn from this scandal, whether we ever see another document or not, whether whatever we end up seeing in the future regarding redactions or not, we know enough that kids have really, really been hurt here.

And whether that's clear enough or not, I should just say we're talking about sexual violence and for for listeners, for viewers who that's hard for.

Just know that that's part of the conversation.

I will also say that, you know, I mean, I appreciate if you were listening in the first half hour, did we ended up do we end up redacting or dumping what was said?

The one line we did.

So there was one little section, and I just want to say Mary Whittier and I have been talking about how do you talk about this in ways that are really direct and really descriptive, that don't just sanitize and scrub things so clean that you actually protect the abusers?

So there's there's language that I'm not allowed to use on the radio, I'm not allowed to use on YouTube, I'm not allowed to use on a podcast or all of our platforms.

But it's pretty descriptive.

So we're going to talk as specifically as we can, because we need to know people to know how serious this is, how direct this is, without protecting abusers.

And you're used to speaking very frankly, aren't you?

>> I am, I apologize for that.

But you know what?

It reminds me?

It reminds me for people that are listening, if if people have not seen the movie spotlight, put that at the top of your list.

But there is a line in that movie where the the reporter who actually we also had at the conference many years ago she was Sacha Pfeiffer.

She was fantastic.

She was interviewing an adult survivor, and they were in a coffee shop.

And he, you know, he's very nervous and he's eating like four muffins and he spills his coffee and, you know, and she says, it's okay.

You know, take your time.

And he's she's like, you know what?

Tell me what happened with the Catholic priests.

And she said, well, you know, he said, well, you know, he molested me.

And she takes him out of the coffee shop and they talk and she says, you know, I think if we just say molest like it's sanitized, it's the word you use.

We're over sanitizing it.

Now.

We're on the air.

So I won't won't be as descriptive as I was before.

But I think it's that kind of thing.

We want to understand.

These are kids that are being raped that are being, you know, orally or anally sodomized.

Yeah.

Yeah.

and.

>> Digitally penetrated.

>> Yes.

I can say.

>> That we're speaking very directly.

>> Yep.

We are not talking about.

Yeah.

So and I know this is not the cocktail party people want to talk about.

This is not the.

But if we don't, you know, we used to say all the time when we were in child protective and the CDC, for years, you see something, you say something, my dear colleague at the D.A.

's office, Sarah Van Strydonck, who is actually going to go to Ontario County, her famous quote is, don't be a bystander.

Do not be a bystander.

Do not be bystanders.

There were for this in the Epstein.

Like how many people that knew about this stuff and didn't say anything because they're protecting their own reputation, because they're protecting their image, because they're protecting this, because they can pay off kids.

It's horrifying.

>> So let me get some more feedback here.

Michael wants to know that if it turns out that President Clinton is shown to have abused girls, do you think he should go to prison?

>> I think that no matter who the politician is, who the man in power is, who the woman in power is, if if there's another statute of limitation laws to, again, I'm not the attorney here, but I think it's anybody that is raping kids needs to be held accountable, whatever that is, whether it's prison, if it's, oh, the statute of limitations is expired now because there's that issue too.

I think everybody should be accountable.

I don't care who it is.

>> Bill Clinton or anybody.

>> Know who cares?

I mean, no offense, Evan Dawson.

>> Yeah, if I'm in the Epstein files.

>> Man.

>> Send me, send me.

>> To prison.

I got lots of cop friends.

They'll be coming after you.

>> I mean, honestly, right?

I mean, like, that's the the standard has to be that if my dad ends up in the files, which he's not.

>> Yes.

>> Send him to prison.

Yes.

Do something.

>> Yes.

And that's the whole point.

You see something?

You have to say something.

Whether it's the Epstein files or whether you know what listeners, if it's in your neighborhood, if it's in your family, if it's on the soccer field, if it's in the school, if it's at Uncle Joe's house, if it's the babysitter, we have got to say something.

And I tell this to people all the time.

If you're not exactly sure, call us.

Call us.

We will work it out with you in terms of like, I'm not really sure if something's going on.

This child said this or my niece said that, or my nephew said that, or my grandson 585935 7800 cc of Greater Rochester.

We are the community resource for child abuse.

Call us.

I would rather have you call and us say to you, oh yep, no, you're doing the right thing.

Or then you're sitting there wondering what to do and we don't get the call.

Call us please.

>> And stop protecting people based on political party Connections.

Power.

>> Correct.

>> Enough of that.

>> Correct.

>> So let me read a couple from Dallas here who, you know, thinks that we're not being fair to President Trump.

He said that he said, remember when the Democrats put out pictures of Trump with beauty contestants and black their faces out so it would look like he was with minors?

That was funny.

So that was a few weeks ago.

Dallas.

And that was not like the National Democratic Party that I understand.

But regardless, if your point is that people are are trying to railroad Donald Trump and make it look like he's got an interest in young girls when he just doesn't.

I want you to tell me a few things.

Why did Donald Trump brag that when he ran the Miss Teen USA pageant, he knew how to bump into their dressing rooms so he could see them changing?

Miss teen USA said that said that when you're famous, you can do anything.

You can grab them, you can do anything.

You can assault people if you wanted to.

He said that.

Why did President Trump spend so much time with Epstein?

Why was he so close with him for so many years?

And why did the Wall Street Journal report just a few weeks ago?

You talk about a story that I thought was going to be huge and didn't get a lot of play.

The Wall Street Journal reports that Trump and Epstein did finally, in the 20 teens, have a falling out after decades of traveling together and being together.

And you've seen Donald Trump doing the that underbite move and, you know, looking at young girls on a dance floor and sitting with them on his lap.

But after all these years, they have this falling out.

And the Wall Street Journal reports that it's because Trump was told that there is credible evidence that Epstein sexually assaulted a 15-year-old, and Trump's response was that, well, then he probably shouldn't be at Mar-a-Lago.

Not like I'm calling the feds.

I'm calling the police.

I know this guy's connected to a lot of powerful people.

He just basically was like, make sure he's not showing up at Mar-a-Lago.

That's it.

That's all.

And to you, he's getting railroaded.

I mean, like, if not a single other document comes out on Donald Trump.

I don't know how you look at this and go, yeah, he was the good guy here.

Yeah, I don't get it.

And I want you to explain, I don't think Bill Clinton's a good guy here.

I don't think Donald Trump's a good guy here.

>> Prince Andrew.

>> Prince Andrew is obviously like one of the worst of the worst.

But I don't understand, like, why are we dividing on Partizan lines here?

Why can't we just call this squarely?

>> And that's the thing.

It doesn't matter if one of our local politicians doesn't matter what party they are.

Was molesting kids.

You better believe we are going after them like this.

To me, we are talking about kids, we are talking about kids, and we are talking about sexual abuse and sexual assault and rape and sodomy.

I don't care who you are, but you know, kids don't vote.

People in power have the ability to do whatever they want.

you know, we saw that with our own governor, right?

With with women, like, come on, you know, just taking advantage and previous governor, I should say previous governor.

>> Governor Cuomo.

>> Yes.

>> Andrew Cuomo.

>> Yeah.

Yes.

Thank you.

And you know it.

You how about well, this is a whole other ball of wax, but, you know, treating women is more than just sex.

How about that?

How about just treating everyone as equals.

How about that?

So I just feel like you know, whoever's name is in there, whether it's sports.

celebrities, whether it's politicians, whether it's business owners.

>> Movie.

>> Stars, movie, bring it on, bring it on.

And then they need to be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

That's my vote.

I don't care who you are.

>> got an email from a listener who says that there could be false allegations in the Epstein files, and that they're going to be careful to make sure they are investigating this so they're not putting out documents that share allegations, because in the files there's pictures, there's videos, there's emails, there's all kinds of things.

Right.

So when Mary talks about hundreds of thousands or millions of documents still that have not been released, it's not just like a bunch of pieces of paper.

There's a lot there's a lot that you could print out, but there's video, there's pictures, there's all kinds of stuff.

And a listener is asking, well, if you're in the files, but people are talking about you in an email, but you didn't do anything, you know, that would be unfair to that person's reputation.

>> So let me say something that I've said many, many, many, many times.

And we get into this a lot at the CAC of Greater Rochester, where it's like, well, how do you know the kids are telling the truth?

And how do you you know, first of all, we do a whole complete evaluation and we've got a whole forensic process that we go through.

But research for years and years and years repeated about 94% of children that disclose sexual abuse are telling the truth.

You can look that up.

This notion of most kids are lying.

Most kids are making it up.

Most kids are.

You know, it's the same thing with, you know women that cry rape.

What happens is the one woman that says she was raped, but she wasn't.

That gets all the play.

And then everyone says, see?

And what happens, unfortunately, is it moves the movement back about 25 years.

But the vast majority of kids, about 94% who disclose sexual abuse or sexual assault or rape or sodomy, digital penetration, whatever you want, whatever terms you want to use, are credible and are telling the truth.

>> You're saying the false allegations set the movement back every time it happens, like a high profile false allegation, right?

>> You know, you think about like, you know, Duke University and the lacrosse team and all that, disaster, right?

>> The rolling Stone story.

>> Right.

But most women that are saying I was, you know, how hard it is for women to come forward and say that you know, how hard it is for a 8-year-old to testify in court in front of a bunch of like, what's the motivation here?

I think that's the other thing.

And I know our colleagues in the D.A.

's office are not here, but finding jurors to even be able to wrap their heads around the fact that this could even happen, I think is and that's what we have to do.

Education.

Evan, no one wants to believe that this happens, but it does.

And this is the world.

I mean, it's the world that I've lived in for the better part of my career.

And if I had a dollar for every time someone said, oh, man, that doesn't happen, I wouldn't have to work, you know, it's just.

But but there is a darkness there and an evilness or whatever you want to call it, where people do atrocious things to kids and someone like Jeffrey Epstein, who is an absolute predator.

That's that stuff is real.

>> So what's the most important takeaway that you want us all to have from this?

>> I want you to believe the unthinkable in that children are sexually assaulted, sexually abused, raped every single day in our community, in our state, in our country and in our world.

And if you think that you don't, I will tell you right now, Evan, every person that is listening to this, they know someone that was a victim.

They just do.

They may not know it because their cousin might have told them that, or that their their teacher or their colleague or their coworker or the, you know, people that they go have a glass of wine with or, you know, play bunco with.

Is bunco even a thing anymore?

I don't know.

Well, that that is real.

You know, I use this this analogy the other day, 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage.

Most women do not talk about that.

But when they do, all of a sudden they'll be in a room of friends and they'll be like, or just, you know, colleagues.

Yeah, I had a miscarriage because they think they're all alone.

They think it's rare, they think it doesn't happen.

And then they start finding out.

1 in 4 women or their guy friends.

Yup.

My wife.

My girlfriend.

Yup.

My mother, my aunt.

My this.

More so the more we can talk about that.

And you know, that's like, oh, I feel like a failure.

None.

None of which is true.

Not the same thing, but it's we have got to talk about this issue.

That's what I want people to know about.

And I also you see something, you say something.

Do not be a bystander.

You talk about our president who said, just don't show up to Mar-a-Lago.

What?

To protect your own reputation.

You couldn't call the feds, which is probably speed dial.

Like, I don't care who it is.

Let me make that clear.

I don't care who it is.

You harm a child, you need to pay the consequences.

>> What is it going to take for our society to get to that point?

>> Are a lot like people cannot, you know that?

What is the.

The monkeys hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

People have got to take that off.

People got to get their head out of the sand and say, this is possible.

And if somebody, whether it's a kid or an adult that said, this is happening to me, you support them, you believe them, you try to get them whatever kind of help they can.

But as a society, we need to value children way more than we do.

>> You know, when you think about who we are elevating to positions of power, that certainly matters.

And in 1992, people got to remember 1992, when Bill Clinton was first elected.

That was six years before Monica Lewinsky.

That was years before the the decades long travel with Epstein, all that stuff happened after he was elected.

But when he was running, it was clear he had some sexual dysfunction or, you know, stepping out of his, you know, it was clear that there was something.

Yep.

And they tried to smear Paula Jones and people like that.

But when you elevate people to positions of power, so Bill Clinton gets elected president and all that stuff happens after that.

Donald Trump is running in 2015, 2016, and the Access Hollywood tape comes out.

When you're famous, you can do anything, he says it thinking he's not being recorded, being totally unguarded, grabbing.

>> You know what?

I can't say it.

>> A month before the election.

>> People thought it was okay.

>> And he wins, and then he wins again.

After the only time in history that we've had, we haven't had a peaceful transition of power.

You elevate people to positions of power who've given you indications that they may not.

>> Who also, just for the record, there are 27, 28 different women who have accused spoken out about him sexually assaulting them or raping them, 27 or 28 different women.

>> Talking about Trump here.

>> Yes.

Yeah.

So but but I think a lot of it too is, you know, we need to raise our boys.

And our girls like we gotta raise our boys to respect women, to respect girls.

They are.

>> I mean, a whole other conversation.

>> On that whole.

>> I could ask you about the Tate brothers and all the things that are in the culture right now that are really, really ugly for young men.

>> Yep, yep.

>> It's not helping.

No.

Andrew Tate talks about women like they should be men's property.

They should be sexually dominated.

He has millions of followers and The White House helped make sure that he avoided legal charges in Romania.

It's we are elevating people like that to the forefront of society.

>> Yes.

It's disgusting.

Okay.

>> I mean, I didn't mean to make it a rant here.

>> No, but can I can I give your listeners also just because we're talking about sex trafficking and sex trafficking and human trafficking all kind of all together?

There is resources out there.

So there's a national hotline at one at eight, eight, 83737888 that people can call locally.

The center for youth has their safe Harbor program, and that that number is ( 585)271-7670.

And there's also an organization called Miss Julie's School of Beauty.

And that's for mostly women that have been through horrific, horrific abuse, a lot of human trafficking, sex trafficking.

And that is a way out to have a career in cosmetology.

And that program phone number is ( 585)355-4724.

But if you are out there listening and you know someone where sexual abuse has touched you, or a child that you know and you just need someone to call to figure out, what do I do with this?

So you don't want to be a bystander.

You do.

If you see something, you do want to say something, something you are an adult survivor that is never, ever disclosed before.

Please, please call us at the CAC of Greater Rochester 935 7800.

>> Last minute for the people in that category who have never disclosed.

And they're thinking, what good's going to be if I come talk about it now?

>> You are not alone.

You have a lot of good company.

We can help the UN.

That's unresolved trauma.

Evan, and you don't have to live your life with this secret that is probably eating you alive.

Because that's what we hear from survivors all the time.

>> Mary Whittier is the interim CEO of the Child Advocacy Center of Greater Rochester.

And pretty soon we're going to meet who are we going to meet?

>> You're going to meet Jeff Pier, and he is going to be the new president and CEO for the sake of Greater Rochester.

He starts in early March.

We're going to have about a month or so of crossover and a nice warm handoff.

>> And you're a big fan.

>> I am a huge fan.

This is a huge win for our community, for children, for the CAC, for our partner agencies and staff.

And he is an amazing, amazing person that has done a lot of work in victim services.

And he's he's he's a rock star.

>> One thing you and I have talked about in the past was, I hope one day we don't need a bavona or a.

>> Oh, God, we say.

>> We're not close, are we?

>> We are not close.

But until then, we're going to have the bavona.

We're going to have the CAC.

We are we are going to be the community resource for child abuse.

And we will continue to do that.

And until we don't need ourselves anymore.

But we are here for our community.

>> You are a treasure and I'm really grateful for your time and the work that you and your colleagues do, not just you and the many people who have worked with you.

>> They do more work than I do.

I'm going to tell you that.

>> Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> Mary Whittier, interim CEO of the Child Advocacy Center of Greater Rochester.

More Connections coming up in just a moment.

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