From Sky news this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made this past October, when an award winning newspaper announced it would have to shut down its printing press.

The Star-Ledger is New Jersey's largest newspaper.

The winner of several Pulitzer Prizes.

Turns out there's been plenty of corruption in new Jersey over the years, and the Star-Ledger was often the source to reveal it.

But the publisher and the editor said that the changing habits of the American public made the decision to shut down the print edition inevitable.

He called it an emotional decision for everyone involved.

That's a newspaper that's been doing investigative work for 157 years.

A recent survey finds the vast majority of American newsrooms are either shrinking or just trying to sustain current staffing levels.

It's not a great time to be a journalist.

Nearly half of all American journalists work in newsrooms that cut staffing levels in the past year.

So who wants to do this for a living, and is it inevitably going to get worse?

Back in 2014, journalists had this rosy notion that social media would be an effective tool.

Today, they tend to see social media as the end of journalism.

Last week, sky's audience stepped up with a very strong, fun drive.

We're grateful for that.

Literally dozens of new members cited the need to protect journalism here and around the world.

This hour, I want to do a lot of, you know, sort of needless navel gazing.

We want to have an honest conversation about the state of journalism in 2025, and I think we can do that with some of our colleagues here.

Gino Fanelli is Sky news investigative reporter.

Welcome back.

Nice duds today if you're watching on the YouTube channel, Gino and me looking very 20.

We were picking out our outfits this morning, you know.

And where were you, Veronica?

I wasn't invited.

Currently, I'm feeling very left out.

Senior producer and editor at Sky news Veronica also heads up the student journalism program.

New Jersey native.

Did you did you know that there was corruption in new Jersey?

Everybody knows there's corruption in new Jersey.

Yes, but that's because of the Star-Ledger.

Absolutely, yes.

Did you grow up reading any of the Star-Ledger?

I mean, is that, like a big deal?

No.

We read it's a it was a Gannett paper.

the Asbury Park Press was our home paper.

So, yeah, I mean, so again, newspapers, everybody is sort of clear on where this is going.

And, and I, I want to say from the outset here, if your habits are that you still love to hold a newspaper, like my mother loves to walk to the end of the driveway and pick up a physical newspaper every day, sit down and read it.

She loves that.

And in 1988, newspaper circulation peaked in this country.

That was it was almost 40 years ago.

So we know where this is going.

It doesn't mean that newspapers can't exist in different forms, and we have to be in a lot of different places.

But in general, I'll start with you, Veronica, I.

Are you worried that conversations like this get navel gazing, or do you think these are important conversations for the public to understand what's going on in our world?

both.

Yeah.

The short answer is both.

First of all, we have to make sure that we're not three journalists sitting in a room talking about how we consume our news and therefore sort of like make that the thing that we think everyone else.

I would I wish everybody else would just.

Right, right, right.

Like same thing forever.

Exactly.

Or you know.

Well, I got my news this way this morning.

So therefore, that's how I'm going to make my news for the rest of my career.

So we got to make sure that we're talking to the people who consume the news, but also, you know, it is important for us, I think, to every once in a while to get together and make sure that we're on the same page about the the direction that we're going in.

I mean, even the three of us talking about this on the air and hopefully bringing in some new voices from our newsroom, and putting it out to your callers, maybe we'll get some ideas right here about some things that we can do, like right now to sort of reach new people.

Yeah.

To that point, listeners, we absolutely want to hear from you.

I mean, are we reaching you where you are?

Other times where you think, like, I wonder why is not on whatever I was going to say X as like an example.

But no, I didn't mean land.

I mean, like that's just not the platform X, the platform formerly known as X.

So like ten years ago, I want to say like March 2015, I was on this show and I was on with Gary Craig and Justin Murphy, and we were talking about the future of journalism, and we were very flowery about like, Twitter is a great platform and I wish we had time to pull clips, but we didn't.

But, it's just interesting to think about how that conversation did not hold up at all.

At all.

There were some smart things said by the folks who were who are more seasoned journalists than me, but I was very optimistic and naive and so naive.

Do you know, finally, how do you think things are going in 2025?

Oh, great.

Everything's going great.

No, I mean, you know, this is something I think about a lot about in the modern media landscape.

And, you know, the the problem is and media literacy is at an abysmal level, understanding what's good information and what is, objective information.

What is, verifiable is it's a skill a lot of people don't have.

And I don't particularly blame them for it because they're in, in day to day by day with a thousand different sources that are all skewing in different directions to, you know, feed very niche audiences to, there's a lot of confirmation bias, news outlets that exist now that exist not to give you good journalism, but to make you feel like you understand the world from your viewpoint better, to reaffirm to the biases that you already have.

And, you know, when we're talking about the ecosystem that we're in with journalism, my job is not to entertain people.

My job is not to, you know, for making bombastic claims or, you know, making people angry or, fearful.

And those two things are very, very profitable.

So, yeah, we have an extreme amount of podcast websites, TV news programs that sell fear, and that is kind of overtaking a lot of the traditional journalism market in a very unfortunate way.

that at this point, I think a lot of people don't even understand what journalism is anymore.

And it's less about this has the most verified information.

And it's, you know, the old journalism adage of, the coach's version of the truth.

It's more this is the thing that feels the best to me to consume because it confirms my bias.

It confirms my biases.

Exactly.

And if you whatever their bias, you might be whatever the conspiracy might be, there's always someone who's willing to buy it.

Let me give you an example of something I've seen a ton of in the last five days.

Boy, do people really believe that whatever their bias is politically.

Pope Leo has said something that confirms that and they're like, look what he said about MAGA.

Look what he said.

Pope Leo almost certainly didn't say whatever quote you shared.

I don't I don't mean to disappoint everybody, but whatever Pope Leo quote that you've seen that instantly fires up, you know, you're that dopamine rush of like, yeah, new pope.

Me and him on the same team.

It's a very good effect.

Quote.

It feels great when the world conforms to everything you already believe.

And the sad reality is the world will never do that.

And if anything, it's telling you that it's lying to you.

But but here's like to Veronica's point, we've been having media literacy conversations for years.

I think schools are talking about, I don't know what is actually being taught.

I would love motivated reasoning and confirmation bias and those kind of things to be taught in schools.

I don't know that that solves it certainly doesn't solve everything.

But like, how is it 2025?

And we have a ton of people who just and I'm sure I've done it.

I'm sure I'm not like at the top of the mountain here, but how are we so, so willing to trick ourselves into believing that some new figure like Pope Leo just believes everything that we believe politically, that we're going to blindly share a quote and not not even look to see if he actually said it.

I think your question assumes any sort of intention on behalf of the person who's sharing this quote.

It happens automatically.

I mean, your brain is wired to sort of like do it.

I'm sure I'm not.

I'm not talking about Pope Leo, but I'm sure I fall into that trap right?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, think about, first of all, the fact that a lot of these apps that you're reading these things on are designed to keep you on them.

So your tendency to move to a second source or verify that information is not built in to how you use the software.

So like if I see a quote, Pope pop up on Facebook from Pope Leo, I'm not going to open my browser and Google it.

Like it's just that's not what the technology is made to encourage me to do.

And also that's not how I'm I'm not going to be rewarded for that either.

Like socially, by the people that follow me or, you know, like as a culture, we're not like, praising people who descend to those things.

No, that's exactly right.

and so let me do a little bit of a quiz for Gino and Veronica.

You wanna do a little question?

I have a little fun here, but.

Yeah, let's see.

Let's see what the public thinks here.

Anyway, this is the American journalist Study published by the American journalist.org.

pretty comprehensive.

and so I'm going to ask you a few things that come out of the survey, okay.

How many journalists in this country are college graduates?

What percentage of journalists?

Gino, first, what percentage of American journalists are college grads?

90%.

Okay.

Veronica 90.

In this country?

Yeah, 95%.

96%.

Veronica's got one on you.

There is like the price is right.

However, I it's like the price is right.

The price is wrong.

how many journalists were college grads in 1971?

Gino 42%.

Veronica 12%.

58%.

So just over just over half.

But 50 plus years ago, almost all 96%.

Now that I don't know exactly how I feel about that, maybe not great, but that's a that's a big, big change.

I think there's a lot that you can say about our, you know, whether or not a college degree sort of informs journalism, but whether it forms maybe any, profession that you get into these days.

I think we're having a reckoning with our.

Oh, yeah, with our sort of the way that we structured our society around college.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm $40,000 in debt, and I couldn't tell you one thing I learned about journalism from going to school.

But also, I mean, I do think that there's value in in learning how to, I don't know, parse through documents like, you know, like the stuff that you do in the newsroom every single day.

Do you think that having gone to college in general makes those things easier for you?

No, no, not at all.

But working in the field made me.

It made it easier for me.

I mean, I consider this a trade job more than anything else, where you have to know how to do the things and you know how to interview.

No, how to find documents, no.

How do I know how to write?

Which is an art form?

I believe it's an art form, but it's also a skill that you have to learn by doing.

I went to RIT by the time I graduated and feel bad because one of our interns is from our city.

But by the time I graduated, I had more experience in the field than most of my professors did because I was freelancing all through college.

And so, did I learn anything from going to school?

nothing that I can really get off the top of my head.

So maybe a little too much gatekeeping.

Yeah.

Extreme amount of gatekeeping.

You cannot get a journalism job nowadays without a college education.

And the amount it pays to be a journalist, it's egregious to expect a person to have to pay for a bachelor's degree in order to work at a job where you're making, at best, slightly over the median income.

Well, what percentage of American journalists are white?

All right, overwhelming majority, 78%, Veronica.

70%.

Right.

About 80% still.

Yeah.

So, and that hasn't moved much.

What is the breakdown, by the way?

That's one for Gina.

Now, do you know, and Veronica tied one one.

What percentage of American journalists are male in the male female breakdown?

What is it?

Got to go with?

do you know, first year on this one?

I feel like it has to be closer at 55%.

Okay, Veronica, I was going to say 60%.

It's 59, 41 male.

Female.

Yeah.

Almost on the money there.

and that has moved over time, but it's leveled off.

That's plateaued in the last couple of decades.

And lastly, so it's two one Veronica.

Here you go.

You know, you got to tie it up right here.

What percentage of journalists say they are very satisfied working in their jobs?

Veronica, first a hundred first time journalists love their jobs.

My non cheeky answer would be like in 2025.

Yeah.

maybe 50%.

Okay.

20%, 29%, 29%.

American journalists say they are very satisfied working their jobs.

In 1971 it was 50%.

So even then, I think most people will just it breaks my heart.

People are negative about their jobs, but journalists are very negative about their jobs.

So it's two two.

And I was going to give you one more fifth one, but I told Veronica about this for the show even started.

So I mean, like Veronica knows the answer here, but I'll just see how Juno does.

this journalist perception of social media is social media making a positive impact on journalism?

2014 Gino, what do you think the breakdown, was when you asking the average American journalist what percentage said that social media is making a positive impact on journalists?

76% 7,070% in 2014 said it was positive.

What percent now say it's positive 12%.

26%.

Wow.

That's a lot.

Yeah, I'm surprised those are our content creator journalists.

Yeah, exactly.

but it really is.

Essentially, those numbers have flipped in a decade and flipped for a lot of probably pretty obvious reasons.

not the least of which is, is that if you ask people under the age of 30 in this country where they get their news from, the biggest source that they will tell you is TikTok, and journalists feel very threatened by that.

So, you know, it looked like you were going to jump in.

There was something that just sucks.

That's that's terrible.

Wait wait wait, wait.

I'm just.

Yeah.

What is it?

That sucks.

Pretty much all of it.

But the TikTok part of it is, TikTok is not a good avenue for, doing journalism on it.

Okay.

Can I just be like, the the token optimist here can train or optimist?

Optimist.

I would say optimist.

Okay, I hear what you're saying.

Do you know about like TikTok is not the place, but.

Okay.

But why why why isn't it the place?

Why can't it be made?

And why can't it be the place?

I think it could be.

And I also think that it has melted the brains of an entire generation where the ability to think critically about something has been completely replaced by the dopamine rush of scrolling through video after video, feeding you nonsense.

So is it, something that you could use as an avenue to put out good journalism?

I think it absolutely is.

Is it being used for that?

No.

I think people are trying to, but is it anything in the face of what Tik Tok is mainly used for, which is silly nonsense?

No, I don't I don't think it's even competitive in any way, shape or form.

And that doesn't just go for Tik Tok.

That's pretty much every platform at this point.

It's just all, instant gratification, monkey brain kind of stuff.

well, then that's okay.

I think it is worth saying that I agree with some of the concern that Geno is expressing.

I'm just going to be honest.

I mean, like, I don't if I were to choose which way where this society was pivoting, I wouldn't be going in that direction myself.

But I don't get to choose.

And on top of that, to Gina's point, it's not just a 46 year old guy who's bummed about it or Gina or anybody else when, Greg Lukyanov is one of the the coauthors of a number of books about the effects of media, the effects of culture on teens and young adults, and help put together a survey and found that, American teenagers will tell you they're either addicted or they're on TikTok all the time.

Nearly half will also tell you they wish TikTok were never invented.

They see it.

It's like they see it as the piece of chocolate cake that's always in the kitchen.

They're like, I wish it weren't there.

It's there.

I'm going to eat it like I wish or I think, get it out of here.

Because if it's here, I'm going to eat it.

That's TikTok for a lot of people, but it's there, you know, we're not going back man.

Like so.

And if TikTok goes away or if it gets banned, something else will take its place.

So we have kind of given up the floor.

We've given up that arena in this high minded effort to keep newspapers and print like that kind of thing, and radio station and radio, I mean, like in ways that have prevented us from being where everybody else is.

So I think it can be we have to find ways to do what we do on those platforms and we try to, I mean, I, I'm begrudgingly doing videos for Instagram now and have been for a couple of years now.

I never wanted to do that.

it's not my thing, but people seem to like them.

And if people like them and this is a good way to get stories out there, then I'm going to do it.

so, Veronica, Gina's always so disappointed when people, like, love his stuff, because they do.

They really appreciate his work.

Like, oh, no, how dare they?

I, I think though, that, like, there are some good points being made here, but one is definitely that the kids are on TikTok.

whether or not we think they should be on TikTok, that's not my job, right?

I mean, it is my job as a parent, maybe, but like as a journalist, I can't really do anything about the fact that they're there and being upset that our society is continuing to, like, go in this direction of prioritizing and being addicted to these, like short form vertical videos is not going to do anything for journalism.

So meeting people where they are, I think is very squarely the mission of public media.

It used to be that we would put television on the airwaves for free, or we'd put educational content on the radio for free and that's how we reached people, with our information, our news, our education.

And now I think we have to reach people where they are on TikTok, on YouTube, and whatever social platform is going to be emerging in the next year, and trying to do it in a way that's like aligned with what we are proud of at Sky and other public media stations, but also in a way that like engages people and keeps them informed and improves their life.

And like all these other things that we are in this business to do.

Yeah, I'm I'm with you there.

I mean, we have to now and I can be the curmudgeon and I probably will be at times.

Do you know you you and I can be curmudgeons at times, but that's still me.

But that's where people are going to be.

And if that's where they're going to be, we've got to be there.

We have to.

I think it's an obligation that we have to the community and also just to like explore this further, like what is his role as like an educational organization in helping people understand what their relationship to their phones should be and helping parents understand what their child's relationship to their phone should be like?

Why can't we set the tone and in some ways give people, a way to think about how to sort of engage in that media literacy that we're talking about, like, what are we doing to make sure that people are informed in that way so that they can carry that into, like, all the interactions that they have with media outside of WXXI?

I don't know what that looks like, but I'm going to bring it out to you guys.

What do you guys think?

Do you know, that's, that's a big question.

I mean, I don't I don't know what the right way is.

I think we're in this very, very hard time period where, it almost feels like it's, we're in like, an intermediary phase.

Like a lot of the really establishment social media companies have changed a lot over the past few years.

Twitter is the best example of that.

I mean, Twitter has turned completely crazy.

and, it's not that used to be the best avenue to reach people where they were locally.

I used it a lot.

we are we use it a ton on this program.

Yeah.

And, it was actually great for that.

And then the shift happened where, you know, Elon Musk bought it and it turned into I can't even it's hard to describe what it is now.

It's just pure vitriol.

And, the only people you're going to engage with on there are anonymous accounts that want to scream at people.

So what is the best avenue for being able to put out good journalism and educate the public?

and reach?

I think that our biggest challenge with reaching young people, where they are, I don't know how it's done right.

maybe there is no right way.

but I think there is an argument for just trying to get everything on everything and seeing what sticks and what doesn't flood the space.

Yeah, we have, the thing that we have to try to resist is cynicism, cynical that things have changed.

Therefore they are worse.

Cynical that, you know, every oncoming generation will do things in a way that is less, healthy for them.

And therefore I don't want to participate in it, but cynical in a way that also gives us like the sort of moral high ground to out, right where it's just like, I'm not going to be a part of that because I don't think that it has value.

it has value for the people who are on it.

And, and so long as we continue to, to think like, well, there's no, nothing of value on TikTok, then we're not going to want to engage on that platform.

And then we're missing out on an opportunity to to tell stories, to tell the stories that we're already reporting and telling in other ways, and tell them to an audience that probably would really benefit from them, honestly.

and yeah, I don't I don't think we're I don't think we've connected that dots those dots yet.

But like Gino says, like we're definitely in a transition phase where we are thinking more about it.

Well, and Veronica and I were talking before the program about, conversations that The New York Times and Ezra Klein has recently had about how education is having to change.

You probably heard the stat that popped in my brain, which is that in 1974, the average how many what percentage of American teenagers read at least six books for fun?

1974 what percentage of American teenagers?

And I think Veronica already heard this podcast I did, but I don't remember.

Stats do not go with numbers 82%.

It was 60.

Really, 6,060% of American teenagers read at least six books for fun in 1974.

What about last year?

How many American teenagers read at least half a dozen books for fun?

14%.

It's 11.

And I thought that was high.

I'm like 11%.

That's one out of nine.

No way I would have put it in the single digits.

And I bring that up because when print journalism was the only thing, and then radio and TV come along, the print people were like, TV is going to rot your brains.

It is terrible for journalism.

It is terrible for news consumption.

Terrible way to explain the world.

You can't do it.

And I mean, but wasn't it like, can we can we be real for a second?

Well, yeah.

I mean, in many ways I'm not talking about like local television news that does the best they can with what they have to to bring stories about, like the community.

But I'm talking about the model of television journalism.

Like, you can make an argument that it it created a business, around rotting people's brains and keeping them engaged and sort of pushing that fear that we talked about the 24 hour news cycle.

I mean, if you're in the a daily market, how do you fill that?

just do crime stories over and over and over and, you get that dopamine rush and people are locked in and all that just moved to Facebook.

it's it's scary.

and I think to the point, just the whole model of profit driven news, beyond just social media is kind of the problem here.

Like, we have these outlets that have popped up in the past few years, Newsmax open, you know, a little bit older Breitbart that, like, exploded in popularity.

Why?

Because not because the quality of the journalism is great because it was selling a product.

And that product is fear and affirmation.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that is a very powerful combination.

And it makes a lot of money.

So that is also killing the journalism market.

so yeah, I just bring up some of that change in our norms to point out that, like, we are just not reading at length and the same way that we feel in our curmudgeon phase about TikTok and the like, this whole lot of people have felt about any change that comes.

So the question just becomes to journalists, what are you going to do?

And I think I agree with Veronica that we don't have the moral high ground that says, I'm sitting out, I'm sitting it out, not doing it.

And if we have to be there.

So that's part of where I think we're going.

let's, let's take a break here and let's, let's bring in a couple of people who are younger, the future younger than us, for sure.

And they'll have a lot to say.

they're going to bring a lot of insight on the other side of this break.

We're talking about journalism in 2025.

Junior finale, Veronica Volk, Evan Dawson from Sky news.

We'll come right back here.

Coming up in our second hour, federal funding cuts to USAID and the funding freeze for the U.S.

Fish and Wildlife Service have halted projects centered on animals facing various threats, including extinction.

We're going to take a look at a local project that might serve as a model for continued conservation work, especially with those cuts at the national level and animals under threat.

That's next hour.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

You know, I've been so immersed in this conversation, I even have mentioned the phone number.

And I see the phone is ringing.

So it's 844295 talk.

If you unlike my 13 year old who says nobody makes a phone call anymore, he's always like, why would you ever give a phone number?

Nobody makes a phone call.

Well, some people do.

And there you go.

844295 talk.

8442958255263 WXXI.

If you're in Rochester.

2639994 I'm happy to say he's wrong.

People call this program every day, but you can email us connections@sky.org.

You can join us on the YouTube chat.

If you're watching on the Sky news YouTube channel and hello in studio two.

Well, Veronica, I know as the, the coordinator at someone's heading up the student journalism program.

You want to do some introductions here?

Sure, absolutely.

We have, two summer interns for our news department, and, I'll actually, I'll let you guys introduce yourselves.

You want to go first, Natasha?

Sure, I can go first.

Hi, I'm Natasha kiser.

I'm a fourth year photojournalism student at Rad.

Okay.

Hi.

My name is Rasheen Meyer.

I'm an international relations and economics major at the University of Rochester.

And I'm also entering my fourth year.

All right.

And so we've had a great experience, with the students and what I love, I'm going to be clumsy.

Like, where do you get your news?

But I can I always want to know.

Right.

Like, I just want to say before we get into this, that like we do the internship program for a variety of reasons.

Number one, we I really like working with college students because I really like the idea of introducing people to the brand as not just like a place where you can get your news, but also maybe a potential work environment.

But one thing I always do in the program is talk to people about where they get their news, how they get their news, what they want to see more of.

What do you, as a twentysomething, care about?

Because it's hey, like I said in the beginning, I think it's important to stay in touch with people who are the perceived audience to get real answers about where and what they want to see.

So, yeah, so let me just ask Natasha and Russian.

Then I want to just describe a little bit of, what you want to do, what, not only with this experience, but in your future.

So I'll start with Natasha.

I love, like, immersive storytelling within the community, and I think that's what brought me to tie originally was the ability to become part of the community and become a journalist within the community, and even that with RIT, I would love to move to DC afterwards.

I have a huge interest in politics and human rights and international relations, and I think that's what brought me is like telling the stories of the people in our community.

Okay, what are the things that I hear?

I'm sorry.

I'm going to jump out.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it gets you in a second version.

But one of the things I hear in Natasha's answer, by the way, that I just want to sort of like underline is this idea that, like, good storytelling is universal, no matter what platform you're on and no matter how old you are, like, you want to be told a good story.

And so that's something that like, no matter what phase of your career you're in or whatever media you're reporting for is a valuable skill to have.

So yeah, absolutely.

I think that's, that's universal.

That will always be the case.

And that can be a good way to reach people, like just a good kind of standard to keep in your mind, whether you're on TikTok or on a talk show machine.

What about you?

I have had brief experience with and within the political science department when talking about, local media and how it truly impacts people's information and how they share information.

And it's also a source of community bonding.

And it's something I've been more interested in, with research in general.

And just like learning how people connect and how that also can feed into protecting democratic ideals.

one of the books that we most recently read in one of our political science classes, Tocqueville Democracy in America, and specifically talks about this.

And, I mean, at the time, he was, targeting newspapers as an important source or media source for, improving democratic ideals.

But as we see now with WXXI and other like local news source stations, these are important, things that we need to preserve.

And it's something that I've been looking into getting involved in.

So I'm going to do that cliche thing though.

Take us through your your news habits.

Then I'll start with you rushing.

So what's a daily news consumption diet for you look like I would say similar to my peers.

I do consume a little bit of I would say just palate, excuse me, politics.

and news on social media platforms, as we've talked about on the show with Instagram, not so much TikTok.

I feel like, there's, definitely an awareness with my viewers in general that TikTok cannot always have the most factual information.

but I also do consume BBC news podcast to try to get a more international or global perspective.

and then in general, The Washington Post, just newspapers online unless.

Yeah.

what about you, Natasha?

I feel kind of similarly, I, I feel like I'm subscribed to every major news publication that you can think of off the top of your head.

and when I wake up, I, I'm normally checking, like, Instagram and stuff because I follow most of their, like, course, but like their socials.

And I think Veronica and I talked about this.

I also follow a lot of like, politics based photographers because I get a lot of my, like, visual news that way instead of just primarily through the actual like publications and articles.

I also look at the photographers Instagrams and see what kind of coverage they're doing and what they're seeing within their own camera lens.

Okay.

And do you feel the same way about TikTok?

I, I think kind of like I'm a middle ground between do you know Veronica of like it's not super conducive to getting the best information because it's so short form.

I feel like TikTok, they've expanded how long their videos are, so it's not as problematic.

But especially with like that short form, you're not getting the whole story.

And I feel like that can become problematic to spurring misinformation.

So I don't think it's the best way to consume information.

But I definitely don't think it's it's the worst like outlet, to be consuming it for now.

These are news in terms are we self-selecting for pretty media literate people who have a good sense of maybe the shortcomings of each individual platform, or is this indicative of anything?

Do you, Veronica?

I mean, like I'm looking for students who are smart and care about news.

So I think that this sample size is very specific to what that may be.

The more, media literate side of, of college students and their media consumption.

But I do want to say that, like one thing that both of you guys said is that you're following people on social media who are sharing the news, and this reflects like a total shift, because even, at The Washington Post, which you mentioned rushing like there's a shift from this trust in an institution to a trust in a, like an influencer or a creator or a an individual who is seen as like an authentic voice on a subject.

And like, I actually pulled some cuts from, from TikTok from their way.

Pro TikTok.

I do you know who, Dave Jorgensen is and so anyone out?

Oh my God, no, he's not a good example.

But, anyway, he's a video producer and he's a journalist for the Washington Post, but he makes TikToks and he I pulled a clip from him where he's talking about how the, the Qatari royal family was going to donate that luxury jet at the Department of Defense.

So this is like a very TikTok presentation of that story.

the Air Force One plane sucks.

It's like three decades old.

Hey, we have this $400 million plane just laying around.

Do you want it?

Really?

This doesn't seem ethical.

Is it ethical?

Officially, no decision has been made, but it would be temporary.

What is he doing?

He's right on social media.

That's okay.

That sounds a whole lot like emolument, which I specifically said.

You cannot do.

Emoluments.

Emolument after I'm president.

It would just be donated to my library.

So it's fine.

That doesn't make it okay.

It's not a done deal, but it could be, you know, it is a done deal, kind of.

The US just agreed to lower tariffs for 90 days out of the deal.

So I mean like the here's here's a guy who is, sort of known for his TikTok videos, but he's like he's spreading information.

He's telling stories.

He's doing it in a very TikTok way.

He's one guy, but he's also representing sort of this legacy media organization.

And I think that he's a good example maybe of like this transition that we're talking about and that we're seeing, and maybe something that maybe it's like a way in for us to think about how we can position ourselves in a way where we are doing something similar.

Yeah.

And so do you know, what did you make of what you just heard there?

I think Veronica is right.

It is a way of conveying information is not the way that I would do it.

But, you know, it works.

and, you know, it's just a thought that I'm having is we're like, having this conversation we're focusing a lot on, like, the younger generation, which I think it's still reachable.

You can still find avenues to, promote good media understanding to the younger generation because there's still time.

but let's, like, not pretend that the baby boomer generation wasn't fried by Facebook.

I mean, the media literacy of older people is also dreadful.

You they were too obsessed with Gen Z, and I think we.

Yeah, I the part that I don't like about it is that it starts to come off at a certain point, like, oh, these kids are so dumb.

Like the adults are really dumb to like every generation.

I'm really bad at the dumb.

I'm like, that's a word.

I'm not.

Use the word dumb.

Oh my goodness.

but the point is well-taken.

I again, I wouldn't say dumb.

I would say anyone would be susceptible.

To the negative charms.

Let's put it this way.

Ignorant and not.

And everyone is ignorant in some way, shape or form.

No one knows everything.

Now, someone's ability to understand one subject might not be if you go to the ability to understand politics or understand, you know, geopolitical structures or the economy or whatever new subject that we're writing about, that might not be completely within their grasp.

I mean, it's our job to educate them on that.

But when we're in this kind of period of time where you can find something that can reaffirm whatever thing your brain can pop up of how things are actually working, you end up with people that are proud of their ignorance.

And, and, that is a scary part of where we're at right now, too.

So yes, there is the part of like, we can still reach some people and we still can educate, particularly the younger generation, but also, you know, everyone.

But also we are facing an insurmountable barrier of the love and adoration of not understanding the world, the proud anti-American mindset that a lot of people do have right now.

Well, educational attainment is the single biggest dividing line in American politics right now.

anti-LGBT, sort of striking.

This anti-LGBT poses very popular on the platform, as you're describing.

Let me say, Andrew, I'm going to take your phone call in just a second.

in the in that TikTok clip, I actually heard a lot of John and Hank Green.

I used to watch them.

Yeah.

There is like, this fast moving description of events or ideas.

And now the Vlogbrothers vlog.

Vlog.

What do you call it?

Vlog, vlog blog blog.

Thank you.

I mean, I think they still do what they do, but I mean, maybe not as prolifically.

but I hear a lot there, so that's probably going to be with us going forward.

Here.

You have this very fast moving media and platform.

It is it's fast moving.

They're packing a lot of information into a short period of time.

But isn't that what we do every single day?

I mean, not on your show, Evan, but like, the majority of my job is taking Gina's story and trying to distill it down to 60s so that we can fit in a local break on the radio.

We should have this show, and we should have that, and we should have everything in between.

Exactly.

That's what we should be doing.

and so before I get Andrew's phone call, let me just ask our guests here from Gen-Z if they want.

What did you hear there?

I mean, like in that clip, Natasha to you?

Yeah.

I think it's interesting because cross-platform social media is so, like, new and it's it's so prevalent to what we do as journalists.

And so even stuff like that, it you listen to it and you watch it and you think, I wonder what he's talking about.

Like if you don't know what's going on and you don't know the background of that, you're like, that makes me want to read more about that.

And I think that's what we need to be encouraging as journalists is like cross-platform.

Like, you can have that TikTok video that's satirical and that like gives you a snippet of information, but you also want to go read more, you want to watch it longer form video that explains the satirical.

The question is, will people follow up and do.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I think we need to be focusing on how can we encourage that kind of movement, because algorithmically it's it's bad, it causes echo chambers.

And we need to figure out a way to break that algorithm of like just consuming the same content over and over again and start actually trying to go cross-platform and very different publications.

Do you agree with Gina's point that older generation, Gina's words the baby boomers are struggling with?

I think it's interesting because, like, I think like 10 or 15 years ago, it was all like, don't believe everything you read on the internet or see on the internet.

And then now it's like, look at this AI baby runway.

Like, what are we doing?

Like, it's not even know what we do.

I don't know, but Facebook has become like a parody of AI videos now at this point that like on purpose, is it to show the absurdity?

I don't know, but I, I'm very, very turned off by that.

Yeah.

I want to hear Russian stuff.

Yeah, yeah we're watching.

Well, I agree with Natasha's comment on echo chambers.

I think that just can affect anyone in general.

one book that really stood out to me was Anna Lemke.

She's a, Stanford psych psychiatrist.

and she wrote this book called Dopamine Nation.

and dopamine has been a word that's been flying out of this discussion a lot.

and in terms of echo chambers, people just keep consuming this abundant content that we have.

humans are not used to this amount of abundance.

And we're we're meant to indulge.

We want to achieve that pleasure.

It's like a balance between pain and pleasure.

And we're conditioned and like an animalistic instinct to, obtain that pleasure.

And so that keeps wanting us to consume more.

And then when it comes to these echo chambers, we tend to diverge.

It starts to create a lot of polarization because, people are just content with the algorithms on these platforms like TikTok and Instagram, even Instagram Reels.

I know some of my peers will try to delete TikTok to get off the content, and then immediately get addicted to Instagram Reels.

It's it's an endless cycle.

but yeah, it's just a, I think it creates a lot more polarization and a not that people who are like, I mean, I think I fall victim to it too.

I won't say that people are necessarily dumb or like, not like, as intelligent or they're being ignorant.

I think they're just being like, conditioned through the social media to, believe these things and think that they are in the right, because everyone else on the social media is also saying that they are in the right and they're not seeing any opposition to their beliefs or biases.

Yeah.

And I think that is an important part of this, this topic.

Let me grab this phone call from Andrew, who's been waiting.

Hey, Andrew, go ahead.

I watch a lot of different news.

I like to watch MSNBC and CNN and a little bit of Fox only, the Fox News Hour.

And I usually just watch the last half hour that this from 630 to 7.

But I like to see as many different angles as I can get.

But I stay away from the far like Rachel Maddow.

I don't waste my time with her or at Laura Ingraham.

I don't waste my time with her because they're too they're too far gone with their stuff.

But if you really want to understand what's going on in the world, I have been having such a good time reading the Wall Street Journal lately because, like the other day there was a guy there, older people that loved these news stories write letters to the Wall Street Journal, and you can read them every day.

And the and the New York Times, still a little bit, but they're they you you hear such an accurate thing of what's going on.

Like, this guy the other day wrote a story about how he had dinner with Fidel Castro at the president of Harvard's, house in 1959, and he was talking about the the stuff that's going on in Harvard today.

And it was really interesting to read his perspective.

the kind of, how far Harvard has gone to, you know, out of bounds with, with they don't they just don't listen to any other point of view except for their leftist ideology.

Anyway, another another letter I in the wall Street Journal the other day was about a guy that was feeding kids candy in North Korea and the, you know, after they were cleaning up after the war and how how he was complaining about today's USA being canceled, and he was talking about the principles of how good USA is when, you know, when you do it.

Right.

But anyway, I my vote is for everything all at once, all the time.

Yeah, everything all at once.

Can I interest you in everything?

Oh, yeah.

Yes.

I think that shows like a there's still an appetite for long form journalism, I think.

and from a lot of people.

I don't know if that's the norm anymore.

This is sort of the danger of getting into, a little bit of, navel gazing place where we're like, we make long form journalism, so everyone must love it.

Well, but.

But maybe all of you can.

Maybe that's a good place to kind of steer this.

As we get ready to try to land this $400 million plane this hour.

back in 2000, probably 2005 or 6.

But I've talked about 20 years ago when I was a young reporter for the 11 p.m. news at the local ABC news station, we flew in these consultants from Texas, and they told us that nobody had attention spans anymore.

So all stories on the air had to be 30s or less.

And then in the 11:00 news, we had to have 30 news stories every night at 11.

That's a 30 minute block of news.

You know, in actual minutes of that, 30 minutes was actual news, not commercials, not whether or not sports nine nine minutes.

We needed 30 stories because no one had attention spans.

And I was like, well, that's we're doomed.

but now we're in the age of podcasts where the most listen to podcasts can be 2 or 3 hours long.

I don't know if everybody is listening to every minute of the of on or, many of the others.

And by the way, there's a whole gender breakdown.

I mean, young men and young women are listening to totally different podcasts, and I'm sure our guests from Gen Z can talk about that.

But all I'm which I'm saying is V, is it like people will have an attention span if it's for a certain thing?

Maybe that's a podcast, but not for news consumption.

You know, actual just straight reporting.

I mean, are we flexing the muscles differently because clearly we can stay with something for a longer time?

I, I mean, I can't speak to like the scientific, like the neurology of what is actually happening.

But here's my sense based on like, what I'm hearing from people who are much smarter than me, we don't have the attention span like we just don't.

We?

It's we are losing it.

We are trained to sort of want new things every second.

And actually, our brain is already made that way as sort of an evolutionary advantage.

It's just that our current media environment reinforces that in the worst possible way.

We're not reading anymore.

So we are losing a skill around sort of rapt attention of a single of a single thing.

Yeah.

but I think that media consumption of podcasts is easier for people as they're doing other things, which makes it possible to consume a long form news product while you're washing the dishes, walking your dog, driving to work, or doing something else that's like the way that we sneak it in.

you're not going to be able to read like a full New York Times feature, but you will maybe listen to the daily on your way to work.

So I think that that's a great place where we can reach people.

And we're doing it right now.

By the way, if you want to, follow connections podcast anywhere you get your podcasts, anywhere they're sold.

well, okay.

So just briefly here, do you and the men your age consume different podcasts?

Generally speaking, you think?

Natasha.

Yeah, I would say so.

I mean, that's such, such a different thing.

Kim.

This is the first time we're seeing this.

Men and women will consume entirely different media.

I mean, because of the availability.

To Geno's point, you can just chase down whatever fires you up or whatever confirms your biases.

Well, there's Dan, like the Instagram algorithm because of, you know, who I am.

My demographic force feeds me Joe Rogan.

Like it's like if I scroll on there, it's going to be Joe Rogan over and over and over and and I just hate that man so much.

And no matter what I do, it just will not go away.

it is shoved down my throat and, you know, it makes me think.

Or that why partially his podcast is geared towards, again, my demographic, but also it's, you know, funneled to that.

So yeah, I get it.

Somebody in the algorithm world saw a picture of you and they're like, that guy is going to love.

Oh yeah, yeah, we need to get that guy.

I mean, look, if you look at me there.

Yeah.

I'm not giving up on you.

Gino Fanelli Gino did not have coffee this morning or something.

You came out really loaded.

Actually, I had a lot of coffee.

Okay.

well, and as we get ready to wrap here, Tom wrote in asking how would you design a media literacy course starting in schools now?

Oh, I don't know, but I don't have to think about that.

It's a good question.

It's also really important, I think, that it's important for AI to start answering that question because, like, we have to think about ourselves not just as a news and information organization, but as in it.

I mean, we already do it.

We have an education department.

What can we do to sort of make media literacy a cornerstone of what we do?

So yeah, great question.

Natasha 30s, what would you want young people in schools to learn?

That's quite the that's quite the ask.

I would say probably how to how to spot reputable sources.

I think that's something that we learned when I was growing up.

And it's like first hand accounts and sources and stuff like that.

I think that's one of the most important parts of, consuming journalism and consuming art and stuff like that is, is figuring out who's making it.

Okay, Rasheen, I totally agree with Natasha.

we were always taught when we were young to stick to academic engines.

and like, just news sources, that were reputable that people knew, not blogs.

and I think in general also just a question everything.

And deep in your research, in everything that you do, if you see a source or you see something that kind of piques your interest, look into it more, because there's more to the story than meets the eye.

Yeah.

Rashid's point there, Gino, is about bias, and I think we should be teaching all forms of bias and critical thinking, younger and younger and younger, and offer a really stupid analogy here.

But, I eat Raisin Bran because it's good for you.

And to get it.

So it's a fiber.

And in the cereal aisle there's a galaxy of colors screaming at you from every direction, and you could get whatever garbage you want to.

Most of it is garbage, but the Raisin Bran is still there, and that doesn't mean that it has lost its value in the health benefits that it offers.

So you just have to know to seek out what you know is good for you.

And maybe you can have garbage every now and then too.

Is WXXI Raisin Bran?

No, I want to question whether or not Raisin Bran is actually healthier in everything.

I think Raisin Bran is a sugared cereal with a good bran.

I guess the one.

I guess I get one without the sugar.

The second source that does not exist.

It does.

Yeah, you have to really look for it.

That's fake news.

Also, Gina's point about the food dyes they're going away to brother, so don't worry.

No more colored cereal soon anyway.

Hey, this was fun, everybody.

Thank you all for being here.

We'll continue this, I'm sure, on another day soon, every single day.

And we'll have more connections in a month.

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