From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made this past weekend when South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham died at the age of 71.

His doctor said that he suffered an aortic dissection, a catastrophic health event that affects roughly 13,000 Americans every year.

The average American adult is 38 years old.

The average member of Congress is 20 years older.

The average member of the U.S.

Senate is a record 65 years old and climbing.

Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley will turn 93 in a couple of months.

Bernie Sanders is turning 85.

It's always perilous to assume we know what the founders of the country might say about something.

Things were quite different in their time, but if you've seen those paintings of the founders debating in the early days and they're wearing powdered wigs, it's always surprising to find that the average age in that room was around 40.

Senator Jon Ossoff of Georgia is 39.

He is the youngest of 100 senators today.

Last night, Jon Stewart of The Daily Show weighed in on the passing of Lindsey Graham and the health questions surrounding Senator Mitch McConnell, who is 84 years old.

Let's listen.

Not to put too.

Fine a point on it, but the last person to speak to Graham is our 80 year old president.

The governor who chooses Graham's replacement is 79.

One of the candidates being considered is 78.

But he backed out because he's too important at his current job in the House of Representatives.

All the Save the Todd Blanch hearings, which are being.

Run by 92 year old Chuck.

Grassley and whippersnapper Dick Durbin.

81, the entire.

Congress is falling apart due to a lack of not just political will.

But bone density.

All right, so maybe you think that entire conversation is unjust and unfair.

Maybe you think there should be age limits for certain offices.

Maybe you think, look, this is just up to the voters, and we get what we get.

We'd love to hear from you this hour.

On the subject of congressional age and its impact.

And our guests include in studio someone who has been elected to office.

That's Mark Johns, Monroe County legislator for district 80s, former state assembly member.

And Mark, it's nice to see you in studio.

Great to be here, Evan.

And next to Mark is Patrick Coyle, chief of staff of the Rochester Genesee Valley Area Labor Federation.

The last time we talked about this was seven years ago and you were here, so you're seven years older.

My hair was still brown, but.

I don't think it actually was.

I would say majority brown.

It's less.

Yeah.

Look, just give me the credit, Evan.

Come on.

You're 34.

I am 34.

Yeah, I'll be 35 this year.

Well, you got more hair than me, but it's actually more gray.

Gee, Evan, the shoes I'm wearing are 34 years old.

Marky Mark, you you know what you're signing up for?

I knew what I was signing.

You do now.

So, Mark Johns, you hear that clip from the Daily Show?

Is it unfair to focus on age like that?

I think it is.

There's a lot of people that die at a young age, and you're going to hold it against them.

That they had cancer or some debilitating disease doesn't mean that their brain isn't functioning.

Okay, Patrick, was that clip unfair?

I don't necessarily think it was unfair.

I certainly think, you know, there was hyperbolic language, but, you know, I think it speaks to one of the larger problems that, you know, is exists in our political system right now.

Right?

Which is, you know, I think a lot of our current problems can be traced back to the fact that people feel like their elected representatives do not understand them and their problems.

And, you know, I think like a big part of that is the feeling that, like their elected officials are so much older, you know, than their average constituent.

And so what do you.

Let me ask both of you.

Well, first off, I should ask Marc, do you agree with Patrick's assessment that the age gap between the average American and their elected leaders makes it more likely not.

It's not impossible to stay in touch, but more likely that elected leaders become out of touch.

Do you agree with that?

Not exactly.

I think that Bernie Sanders is 80 something and he appeals to a younger crowd.

So I think it's really where your mindset is that counts.

People look at Evan.

Here's the quote of the day.

What do people 65 and 35 have in common?

The answer is they both been 35, but only one of them has been 65.

And that extra 30 years of experience and being able to learn, I think, makes you a better legislator.

So wisdom.

Wisdom with age, of course.

Yeah.

If it comes I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, we have a bunch of geniuses down in Albany or or Washington.

I used to joke when I was in Albany, I said, let's, you know, let's give the assembly, an IQ test and have the Senate score it, you know, and, there is no qualification on age.

There's no qualification on IQ or education either.

So, Patrick, that 65 versus 35 difference Mark sees it, generally speaking, as a chance to bring more accumulated wisdom to office.

Yeah.

And again I think you made a really good point right.

That it's not it's not one size fits all.

You know, there are you know, for every there are a lot of representatives who are very old who, you know, I think are still doing a great job of staying in touch with, you know, their constituents and, with the issues that they're asked to legislate on.

But, you know, there is a point more generally about, you know, the worlds that they came up in.

You know, I so the average member of Congress when I was born in 64, 65, give or take, and I looked it up this morning, I was curious about it.

The cost of college annually in when those guys are going to colleges are still under $1,000 for public schools every year.

You know, for private schools, it was only about 4000.

And how are we supposed to ask those guys to understand what it's like to, you know, struggle with a student loan payment, you know, to not be able to afford a house, you know, just like the world has changed so much from the time from from the world that they grew up in.

I think it's fair to question whether, you know, they will be able to most effectively, diagnose and solve the problems that face many of their constituents.

All right, Mark, fair or unfair?

Well, I mean, he brings up a good point, but, let's be realistic.

How does you know, how do electing people in their 20s and 30s, which is the definition of a career politician, they become rich, they become multi-millionaires, mega millionaires.

How is that helping the average 2030 something year old?

I mean, just because they get rich and famous, how is that helping you?

We all know the college loans and experience and all kinds of college debt is a detriment to buying your first house.

So, you know, I know that as an older guy, but the reality is, you know, until we get a campaign finance system and I know all this stuff to me fits together, we need term limits.

Obviously, we we shouldn't be voting for people who don't take a term limits.

Pledge plenty other offices to run for, but used to be term limits was 12 in a row.

You got to go now.

Term limits USA says it's six years everywhere except for the U.S.

Senate, which would be two six year terms.

What term limit in general do you want to see?

Well, I was I was good with the 12 in a row.

You got to go to.

12 years of service.

Yes.

Well, in in any one position, I mean, if, if you were obviously I never made the 12 years, but if you're in the assembly, you can run for the Senate.

If you're the Senate, you can run for the Assembly, you can run for governor, you can run for Congress, County, Ledge County executive.

You know, you wouldn't go to a casino if you didn't shuffle the deck right.

And God term limits us all, as we found out with, you know, Senator Graham there.

So, you know, when your time is coming up, it's coming up.

And whether it's politically or it's the end of life, there's going to be a certain amount of time and then look at the big push now with some people is, term limits on Supreme Court judges.

Yeah.

So let me hit a couple of those points with you, Mark, and then I'll get Patrick response on this here.

I take the point that you say God term limits us all, and you don't know when your time is coming.

And, you know, certainly best wishes for the family and people connected to Senator Graham.

That was a shock.

But, you also bring up the Supreme Court and, you know, your Democratic friends probably feel differently about the legacy of Ruth Bader Ginsburg because of decisions.

Well, Patrick might make a different view of this, but I'm just going to say there's plenty of Democrats who've emailed me over the years to say their views of RBG changed because she made a decision to stay in office, stay there or stay on the bench, stay on the bench, stay on the bench.

And I guess I'm just I feel like when you talk about term limits, but you also say the age of representatives are not is not a problem.

Term limits would effectively make things younger.

You wouldn't have the option to die in office for the most part.

Right.

Well, as far as Ruth Bader Ginsburg goes, they wanted her to leave so Biden could appoint someone who would be a more.

Left, like it was not by I think it was Obama.

But yeah.

Obama.

Excuse me, pardon me, but the point is that idea of term limits on Supreme Court judges was back in the 90s, and it was pushed by a right wing guy named Pat Buchanan, and the Democrats didn't want to go along with it then.

Now the Republicans don't want to go along with it, but.

At the start of the show, you talked about the accumulation of wisdom that comes with age.

Why then, do we need term limits?

If that accumulation of wisdom helps you be a better legislator, a better jurist?

Why do we need term limits?

Because I feel if you go out and have, you know, work a so-called real job, a career and then you take the knowledge that you've gotten from life experience, including work, and then run for office, there's a big difference at 28 or 38 getting elected than at 58 or 68.

And if you're going to be term limited, you know, I mean, the rich lobbyists want young, rich career politicians to stay in office.

They don't want somebody coming in like Mark Johns, you know, rocking the boat and talking about what they get paid and their pensions and everything else.

You know, I just got through with a primary.

Obviously I didn't win, but I talked about some things that you never hear any politicians talking about what they get paid, how rich they become, multimillion dollar pensions, tax free per podiums.

I mean, this is the kind of stuff that you will never hear any career politician talking about.

It's like the magician's code of honor.

You don't tell people how the trick is being played, right?

I'm pulling back the curtains.

And believe me, people in my own party are not happy here.

All right, so, Patrick, two things here.

First, just briefly on with Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

Do you have a different view on that?

You're trying to get me.

You're trying to get me, beat up by the callers.

Evan.

You're trying.

I'm not trying.

I'm just asking.

You know, I think given you know how the situation played out, I think it is fair to have, you know, what happened with her seat.

And the Supreme Court since then affect how you view her legacy despite her many trailblazing achievements?

Okay.

Now, in general, what do you make of the notion of term limits?

And is that a solution here?

I don't think the term loans are a great option.

Right.

Like I think ultimately, you know, we have term limits and their voters, you know, and I many of the states that have passed term limits, right?

I think Michigan has an eight year term limit for state legislators.

And, you know, to Mark's point about rich lobbyists, when you make when you make it so you can only serve in state government for eight years, ultimately you're all you're doing is creating rich lobbyists, you know, because people will do their eight years and then realize they're, you know, 45 and and.

Become a. Lobbyist.

Yeah.

Well, Mark is suggesting they might go back to the private sector.

They might in his words, his words get a real job.

Why does everyone going to become a lobbyist?

Because that's what they know.

That's that's what they know.

Right.

And there is always going to be a market for it, not a mark.

It's probably not the right phrase, but you know, these institution needs that needs to have centers of knowledge.

You know, they need to have people like, hey, here's how a committee meeting works.

Here's how a bill gets passed, here's how legislation gets proposed.

Here's, you know, the people who know the most about this issue.

And ultimately, term limits, especially like the short they are, all you're doing is moving those those centers of institutional knowledge from to a position that is not democratically accountable.

You know, it moves from electeds to staff to lobbyists, you know, to, you know, other interested parties who are not directly accountable to the voters in a way that I do not think is good for small democracy.

Okay.

So let me take a little bit of feedback here.

And no one's yelling at Patrick yet here, nor Mark.

But listen, if you want a yellow Patrick or Mark, they're ready for that.

It's 844295 talk.

It's toll free.

And they can.

Yell at Evan, too.

Of course, of course.

8442958255263 WXXI.

If you call from Rochester 2639994, you can join the chat on the YouTube channel for Sexy News if you're watching there and you can email, as always, connections at wxxi.org Alex emails to say I think too many elders jump to the idea, understandably, that voters and citizens are just being anti old.

Tons of talking heads stroked their chins in November 2024 about how both parties have struggled to develop younger talent, especially among the dem camps.

I think the issue is more the concentration of power among an increasingly small part of the population, whose perspectives just don't match those of their constituents.

The argument for age is experience and connections.

Jen Lunsford, who was on the show yesterday, is a contradiction to that idea.

I'm not going to guess her age, but she's fairly well established in the Assembly majority leadership.

Joe Morelli, for all his faults, is relatively young, not hard to develop younger voices.

I think Congressman Morelli is I think he's in his 60s, I don't know.

Yeah.

Can you fact check me on on the congressman's age?

But Alex says people don't necessarily see themselves in politicians who are old enough to have lived through desegregation and a political axis that still featured the Soviet Union.

Patrick and Congressman Riley, 69.

Go ahead, Patrick, what do you think?

Yeah, I think that's the the perfect way to look at it.

Right.

It is not necessarily, you know, the age, but more, you know, the idea that you're elected officials are out of touch, are not listening to you in a way that like a younger, you know, candidate might not be.

And I think something that's really interesting to look at, through the lens of this conversation is the most recent, congressional primaries in, in New York.

You know, I was so struck, by some of the candidates that won, you know, the in in particular Valdez, the Valdez Reynoso race because, like, Reynoso is not a particularly old guy, you know, but he kind of lost his career waiting his turn, you know, in that like, he just, like, waited and waited and waited until they were like, hey, it's your time.

And the moment totally passed him by, you know, and like, if you look at like some of, like, the more left leaning candidates that won their all, you know, many of them are under 35.

You know, I believe the woman who beat, Adriano spot is 32.

I don't know, Clara Valdez Valdez's age off the top, my head.

But, you know.

Yeah, I think there was a really interesting conversation there, kind of about the party's role, in kind of making sure, you know, there was a process for, you know, waiting your turn and not, you know, not challenging incumbents in a way that allowed a generation of ambitious politicians to just watch their, careers die on the rocks, you know?

Well, that's an interesting idea.

Mark and Mark Johns, as someone who's been in the assembly, he's on the Monroe County legislature.

Patrick is talking about this idea that if if you just wait your turn, your turn will come.

Don't primary challenge somebody.

Don't step out of line.

And then your shot will come.

And he's saying, if it doesn't come, if the incumbent stays, and then all of a sudden, you know, you're not that old, but you're still considered past.

And I wonder if you think that does happen.

It probably does.

But I've had in favor of it.

You know, I'm, I'm for, challenging people.

You know, the rich lobbyists want rich career politicians that are bought and paid for to stay bought and paid for.

Remember, they say we need a new generation of career politicians.

That's what they said 50 years ago when Chuck Schumer was running Bernie Sanders in all them.

So all these 20 and 30 something career politicians, 30, 40, 50 years from now are still going to be there like the crop we got in.

We need real campaign finance reform, not this mixed blend of what they have in New York state.

But either you take public financing or you take special interest money.

Let's have a level playing field.

Let's get rid of gerrymandered districts.

Let's go out there and have a contest based on ideas.

But Patrick is saying that if there are term limits, you're going to see a lot more lobbyists, a lot more career.

Do you agree with that?

No, because I'll be honest with you, I could become a lobbyist, right?

I mean, I'm credentialed to be on the Assembly floor.

I spent some time down in Albany.

I could have hooked up with one of the big lobbying firms.

I didn't do it, and I don't think most people do.

But you don't go into Wegmans and give them 100 bucks and walk out with nothing.

You don't give hundreds of thousands of dollars to campaigns and expect to get nothing in return.

And that's the problem.

I don't care how old or young you are when your goal is to get reelected and reelected in reelected, you start going to the big money, and the big money expects something in return.

Connected to this point that Patrick made was a conversation I had in March with Nate Salzman, who is, on course to be the next supervisor in the town of Brighton.

He is, he was a 33 year old town council member who decided that he was going to, he was willing to primary and he wanted to challenge the 70 year old incumbent supervisor, Bill Maley.

From his own party.

And when Nate Salzman was on this program, we talked about the idea of willing to risk some backlash from a quote unquote, establishment.

If you run a primary campaign and what it is like to be viewed as the young person challenging, you know, an incumbent who's been there for a long time, and I want to listen to some of what Nate Salzman said about that.

I think that our party needs to try new things.

And, you know, I think that our argument and when I came on your show to talk about the abundance agenda, you know, I'd argue that if our party's best case to the voters is we need to return to what we had before, we're going to continue to lose to the party of Donald Trump.

And we have to argue for a government that works better for people.

That really takes on the affordability crisis, that tries new things and has new ideas, that welcomes, new people to to the party.

And I'll tell you this a lot.

You know, I talked about the 70 volunteers who signed up the week I, announced I was running for office.

My work now is trying to get those 70 people involved in the Democratic Party, and folks have come up to me.

They said, well, I've never volunteered for a campaign before.

And I said, perfect, you should go volunteer for other campaigns because people need to hear new perspectives and new ideas.

And so I hope that our national, leaders are listening to that as well.

So I want to be clear, in talking to a salesman who, by the way, he's gonna be on the show tomorrow on a totally different topic.

He was not denigrating the supervisor.

He wasn't saying I'm running because I'm tired of old ideas, but he was saying that there is a value to bringing in new voices over time.

And he wanted to be one of those new voices.

I think he walked a fine line there, but I don't think he was criticizing the supervisor.

I think he's just talking about how in any situation, whether it's a company with a board, a company with leadership, an organization, a team, a coaching staff, government, new ideas matter, a new perspective matter.

And over time, if the incumbents stay in, stay and stay.

You don't get that.

I wonder what you heard there.

First of all.

Yeah, I mean, I have tremendous respect for Nate.

You know, we've worked together on, a bunch of stuff, and, he's, you know, he's brilliant.

I think he's going to be a great town supervisor.

And yes, like, I think that is the attitude that we should have.

You know, I think a lot of the I think many times the argument was that the Democratic establishment was making here, it's like you have to vote for us because we're the ones that, you know, can win elections and beat Donald Trump.

You know, and I think after 2016 and 2024, that argument struggles to hold water, you know, and so it is just a matter of like these, you know, gatekeepers and like the kind of like people are like, no, like, wait, your turn.

This is how it's done.

Like, I just think there's less of an appetite amongst, you know, the base voters for, for them be like, oh, we know we should just continue to do things the way that we've always done it.

You know.

Do you think the idea of running a primary against a longtime incumbent is out of line?

I of course I do not.

This is not of you that is widely shared.

But no, I think democracy, democracy is good all the time.

You know, I think if you think your ideas are good and you want to take a chance, you should take a chance without fear of professional repercussions, which is just very much not how the world works.

Right.

And so, to be clear, Salzman gets the designation.

He doesn't have to run the primary.

He told me, had he not gotten the designation, he would have run the primary.

He's also.

Yeah.

And so designation really is just like it's who the party is committed to help get their signatures for.

Yes.

If I would be really technical.

Bill Maley, the supervisor, decided after that point I didn't get that designation.

I'm going to honor that designation and I'm going to not run an active campaign.

Yeah, right.

But what Salzman told me was he would have run a campaign if he didn't get the designation because he thinks that's healthy.

But he did acknowledge that a lot of people in established politics tell him, hey, wait your turn.

You know, like a lot of people don't think primaries are healthy.

Yeah.

And they shouldn't, you know, they should not think that, you know, it is.

This is good.

I think it is good for voters to have a choice.

You know, I honestly, I think it would have been, great if Bill decided he wanted to take a chance at it, you know, and, like, I think that is the way that you could best be like, hey, this is the person who Democratic voters in the town of Brighton would like to be their town supervisor.

You know, a really interesting case here, is, one of Mark's old colleagues in the Assembly, Bill Mack, narrowly, who just lost his primary, to, Mo Brown, who is about my age, give or take, was a county legislator in Onondaga.

But, you know, Bill McAnally was 77 years old.

He got elected to the Assembly for the first time in 1999.

That was the first time he faced a primary was three weeks ago, you know, and in these heavily, you know, slanted seats where, you know, the general election was not very competitive.

Right?

That is like you are not basically not facing any meaningful opposition for 25, 30 years.

That's right.

So if you're in rural America and red areas, you know, the primary is the election.

Yeah.

If you're in urban areas, the primary is the election.

And then in a lot of places that are gerrymandered with districts, the primary is the election.

Mark Johns, how do you feel about the idea of running primaries?

Is there anything to be feared?

If you're the establishment, and do you think the establishment on all sides should be more welcoming of primary challengers?

I think especially in New York, we have, a form of campaign finance reform here.

And you're going to see, I mean, the district that I'm in, the 130th, which is Wayne County in Webster, it's at least somewhat a Republican district.

So I expect that you're going to see Republican primaries every two years.

The Democrats had a primary.

But, you know, as I said earlier, we need term limits for a lot of reasons.

You mentioned this, gentleman, the young fella from Syracuse, the one he was in the county legend, Syracuse last year in November, and Onondaga County, which is, you know, Syracuse, area Onondaga County put term limits on the ballot.

Okay.

That was last November.

It got 75% of the vote.

None of those politicians got 75%.

Everybody, you know, it's like they tell you in sports, don't read your own press clippings.

Oh, I'm very important.

Oh, you can't get rid of me.

Oh, I'm too good to be true.

Well, guess what I mean.

We've seen people die in office.

We've seen people get voted out.

Things still go along.

We're all complaining.

I mean, when you say we got new people with young ideas and fresh ideas, name me one.

I mean, the idea everybody comes up with platitudes.

Well, I've heard all the ideas and I agree with a lot of them, but you don't want the same established people in there forever.

Look at Vladimir Putin, an elected dictator.

Get rid of term limits.

Does that tell you something?

XI Jinping in China and elect a dictator got rid of term limits.

I would like to gently challenge the idea that that Putin, you know, enacted democratic reforms.

He didn't.

Okay, good.

Yeah.

We're on the same page.

Yeah.

He got rid of term limits.

Oh, I'm sorry, he got rid of term.

Yeah, exactly.

He got rid of term limits.

Right.

And so did XI Jinping in China.

I mean, it used to be two, five year terms in China.

XI Jinping is, you know, very full of himself, very important guy.

China wouldn't exist without them.

Well, maybe it would exist in a better way without him.

I okay, I see, so I see the point that you're making there.

But when it comes to new ideas, you say you've heard the ideas.

I'll give you an example.

I got a text from a listener named Joe who, who said, Joe who wants to talk about AI regulation.

So he says, this is an example when you only have people who are in their 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, regulating AI is so new and it's moving so fast.

I'm not saying that your age dictates whether you get it.

I'm 47, you know, like I don't get it.

I don't want to regulate it myself.

There is someone in the New York State Assembly named Alex Boris, who's had a lot to say about this issue, just lost a narrow primary himself for Congress.

But, Mark, is this an issue?

Joe wants to know where you do want younger voices helping craft policy.

Most of those younger voices are going to be the staffers.

Like I said, there is no IQ test to get elected.

It's all about money and name recognition.

So hold on.

I think what you're saying is policy comes from an elected leader, but that person has a staff, right.

And you may have younger people understand.

Not only that, but the general staff that does the whole Republican or Democrat side, you know, there are some great staffers down in Albany and I assume down in Washington, both parties, and they are the experts in different fields.

And when you say, I'm going to write a bill, whatever the bill is, no one's writing their own bills.

They go to bill drafting and have the bill written.

But let me go back to what you said earlier this hour.

No one goes into Wegmans and spends $100 and doesn't walk out with something.

No one writes a check to a politician without an expectation, a big check of something in return.

And if the longer you've been in office, the more you have been potentially campaign funded by the kinds of forces that are going to oppose regulation, especially with AI.

And so you may have young staffers, you may have people who understand issues.

But if you're the decision maker and you've been in office that long as the incumbent, are you not influenced by the past relationships that are telling you you can't regulate AI?

Oh, of.

Course you're having.

Obviously that's what you're being influenced by that.

But if you know that, let's say you got a six year term pledge or eight year, whatever it is, and you're in your final term, maybe you're going to have some guts to stand up to the big money and say, you know what, I don't think I'm going to play this game anymore.

I'm term limited.

I'm going to stand up for what's right instead of what's beneficial for my future.

I'm going to worry about the constituents.

Patrick, you think that happens?

I, you know, and I have tremendous respect for Mark.

I could not disagree more.

I think, you know, like, that is the point where I think you are most prone to, you know, being corrupted or, you know, having being prone to, you know, want to, you know, take have somebody, you know, take advantage of your vote because, like, if you're term limited, you're going to need a job, you know, especially if you're if you're not 70 years old, you know, there there are people who like, if they could just run for reelection and continue doing the work they're doing now, I think that they would be.

Yeah.

I think you're much less likely, to risk, you know, corruption if that is the case.

Yeah.

Well, Patrick, you're not exactly happy with the cast of characters we have now, so let's keep reelecting them and we can keep complaining about the same things.

I want to keep getting invited back.

I can actually just.

I do this.

For the record.

We all love Evan Dawson.

Get out of here.

All right, more feedback from listeners.

I'll grab an email here from Charles.

He says we probably should have a younger Congress, but young people have horrible taste in music.

And the decline of veterans in Congress in general likely means that if older member leaves, what vets may not be able to make up the delta.

Also, apparently there's a lot of young people who are okay with communism, and I would hope that we can all agree that we should just ignore everything.

Those he says morons have to say.

So what Charles is saying there?

I'm going to try to condense what I think Charles is saying.

You can talk all you want about wanting to get younger, younger, younger, but if you get too young, Charles is basically saying 20 something.

Activists are idealistic, but that idealism isn't going to craft smart or sensible policy.

It's extreme.

What do you think, Patrick?

Well, it's always much more difficult to government than it is to campaign.

And but if you are going into office with a majority, you know, or like an ideological codger that is big enough to pass policy, you know, effect it at scale, I think that does say something about like what voters want and the priorities, you know, which is not to weigh in on the merits of any specific policy or ideology.

But yeah, I think if you're one person in one seat, I don't think you have a mandate that is nearly.

But, you know, if it is a across the board, you know, the kind of like what we saw this year.

You know, I think there's 6 or 7 Democratic incumbents who have, lost election in the House.

It's the most in a generation.

You know, we almost had, an incumbent senator, lose their primary, which almost never, ever happens.

Do you think your party has moved in?

Its younger, cohort?

Too far to the left?

I don't know if there.

I disagree that a lot of the movement and satisfaction of ideology.

You know, I think that there are, you know, there are moderate members who are just as interested in fighting very hard.

You know, I think it is much more Brad Lander has a great line about this where he's like the the divide in the Democratic Party isn't about, you know, capitalism versus socialism.

It's about fighters versus folders.

And, you know, I think that is what it is.

I think it is like there is a base that wants to see a party that is much more vocal about their values, and prepared to fight for what they believe is right, versus, you know, kind of people who are just perpetually, you know, existing.

And Bill Clinton second term of just, you know, like we we've got to compromise and, you know, sit down to come up with a nice bipartisan solution that, like, I think many people, you know, base Democratic voters just are not that's not the political message they want to hear at this point in time.

Andrew and around Quinn on the phone, hang there for one second.

I got to give Marc his last word, because Marc is then off to a news conference about what's happening.

By the way, if you want to break any news.

Yeah, we're doing, a news conference for, tax, cuts, property tax reduction for veterans, disabled veterans.

And so, Bipartisan work on that.

It.

Is myself, Adam Bello, a bunch of, I think almost everybody's on board.

But, just a. Final thought from you.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Well, dereference the last caller, he said that, you know, young people have bad taste in music.

He probably was right about that, but.

Well.

How did your parents feel about your taste in music?

And they hated it.

Yeah, I'm with Patrick.

I like the younger stuff, but, I'll tell you what.

You know, there was an old band called The Who.

I don't know if you guys remember them, but they had a song, so you won't get fooled again.

Remember that song?

Of course.

The last two lines in the song are.

Meet the old boss, same as the.

Or meet the new boss.

Same as the old boss.

Yeah.

If you don't take the big money out of politics, all they care about is getting reelected in the New York State Legislature, $142,000 a year for part time work.

They're done the first week in June.

Multi-million dollar pensions, health care for life per Dems, over $200.

You had that one of those state jobs.

You weren't actually working part time, were you?

Just because the session ended, I. Probably am busier than most people.

You know I'm out there, but the reality is, yes, you have some people in your office.

If they are that valuable and by the way, there's a bill.

And now to raise their pay to 180.

Of course they always do that every four years around Christmas time.

They're very generous with the gifts, but, we gotta realize that they are in there for what's best for them and not always what's best for the constituents.

So whether they are young career politicians or older ones, we got to break the cycle of the big money controlling everything.

And I'm saying that as a Republican.

Hey, thank you for making time for the program today.

Thanks.

I've it's always nice to see Mark Johns.

He's a former state assemblyman.

He's a member of the Motor County legislature.

He's off to an event with them.

We're coming right back with Patrick Coyle, chief of staff for the Rochester Genesee Valley Area Labor Federation, and Andrew on the phone.

I got a pile of your emails.

Plenty of feedback.

They'll yell at Patrick now that Mark's leaving, we'll do that next.

Coming up in our second Our Connection Summer sessions features my favorite connections interviews the last decade.

Next hour we bring back the conversation with Chris Arnold, a former Wall Street banker who made a lot of money and then changed what he was doing entirely, started documenting the poorest neighborhoods in the country, places he was told he should never go.

And he learned a lot, and he shared it with us.

And you're going to hear that next hour.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

You don't think young music is bad?

I have notoriously bad taste in music.

And so I. But no, I just think there's always this idea, right?

Like you're in your 30s now.

You can look at the teens and think, what are you doing?

Like, it's a rite of passage.

I really try hard not to write because you can go back, you can find it, you know, historical artifacts in the Roman Empire, where it's like these people who are born 20 years after me are going to ruin the world.

You know, it's truly the oldest societal impulse.

And so I try and I know I'm getting old, you know, you don't want to hear my opinions about basketball and how threes are ruining the game.

They are.

We have no midrange left.

They are.

All these young kids don't just want to dribble around.

Evan, I see, but you know I'm trying very hard.

So if we about, you know, music and cultural stuff to not, lapse into old guy tendencies.

All right.

That's fair enough.

All right.

Andrew, and around the quote on the phone.

Hey, Andrew.

Go ahead.

Yeah, but yes, of course, the issue is the reason we were talking about all these things.

Come back to the, affordability crisis, which is housing, and it's if you guys want, you know, look at mom, dummy.

He's building a grocery store.

It's costing, like, five times as much as it should.

According to the grocers associations, socialists don't know how to build houses.

What you need is, is like playing little houses like they used to build.

I mean, you go up by Culver and Norton, there's all these cool, dumb little houses up there.

It wouldn't be if you guys would just get out of the way and let people build lots of dumb houses for dumb people.

But many plain you could get a lot of this frustration out.

I my mortgage payment is 285 a month.

That's I mean it's that's crazy, but I only bought it I bought it 27 years ago and it's a beautiful little house.

I don't understand why you can't get back to that.

If you guys would just let carpenters build houses instead of having meetings and talking about taxing the rich, that's not going to help you build a house.

What you need is what you need is a wide open.

Here's your permit.

Go build me 40 houses or 100 houses that are that are creative and small and cheap.

But Andrew.

It's not rocket science.

Just help me understand something here.

Like I'm I'm listening.

And Patrick, I'm sure, will have something to say, but I want to make sure you are like, listening to today's show about the age of representation.

And I want to make sure I understand the connection here.

The connection is people are frustrated with the old politicians and their old stuff, which is not helping them get a cheap house which is going to have them, which is going to have them have a nice life.

People are getting killed by rent.

That's why they're miserable and they're looking at who is in charge, whether all these old guys are, well, let's get a new guy in there.

So they come with their Marxist ideas.

It's gonna fall flat on its face.

I see, so you're saying.

Yeah, if you turn too far to the left on the young side for the ideas, you're not going to get the solution that you want.

It's no, it's not going to work because they don't they're not really I don't know what they're up to, but they certainly are not about free market capitalism, which is what's going to get you cheap houses.

If you would just get out of the way and stop talking and give me some two by fours and we'll build you some beautiful little houses.

All right.

So Andrew is an abundance Democrat.

I don't know that he's a Democrat.

And I'm not an abundance guy.

Okay?

You're not in.

Abundance.

Those guys those guys want to move the wrong people into the wrong neighborhoods.

As far as I can tell.

All right.

Now, let me just jump in here and let's not let's.

Yeah, let's, let's stay to the previous portion of the call, Patrick Coyle.

And, what do you make of first of all, you're saying people are getting crushed by rent and mortgages?

Yes.

Of course there.

Yeah.

And I think that's you know, what I said at the top there are pretty much which is, you know, people feel like they cannot afford their lives.

You know, the American dream is inaccessible for, you know, generations that are coming of age now in a way that it was not 20, 30 years ago.

You know, I think about this through, the lens of my my in-laws, right where, you know, my father in law was, CEO at Elmira Prison.

And, you know, my mother in law was a stay at home mom.

And they were able to buy a house, you know, free and clear on, you know, one salary of a CEO, you know, in and this was probably 93, 94, in a way that it is absolutely would not be possible now if it was to, a couple in the same situation looking for a similar size house.

They're just they wouldn't even get qualified for a mortgage, let alone be able to find something.

But listen to Andrew's point before that last point, that maybe kind of pass out a little bit and I blacked out and I'm we're back in a anyway, he, he is saying that while everyone agrees that rent and mortgage are the problem, that housing is a problem, that he doesn't think this pushed to the left in a younger generation is going to solve it.

I, I think the housing crisis in America is so big that, like, there's not one thing that could solve it, right?

If there was, we were just all be doing it.

You know, I think it is.

A man.

Says it's free market capitalism.

And he's he's allowed to think that I support him.

You know, but it is.

No, there it is too complex.

It boil down to this, like if we just fix this one specific thing.

Yeah.

But I, I do think that, you know, many of the it is broadly too difficult to build homes.

And I think if people I do think that much of the dissatisfaction, with the political situation would be lessened if people did feel like it was realistic for them to, you know, buy a house, right?

An honest job.

Are you an abundance Democrat?

Next question.

No.

Okay.

And that is a whole other conversation.

I'm very, very curious to have it.

All right.

Mark emails to say this is not Mark Johns.

This is Mark and email back.

No, Mark says, Evan, I agree there should be term limits in our government, which has nothing to do with age, but more to do with giving others the opportunity to serve as far as age is concerned.

And people in these positions and other positions, I think it's more about their job becoming their identity.

I have several friends who have retired and had no idea what to do next.

Their jobs became a big part of their identity and without work they were lost.

So it's two separate points, but interesting.

What do you think, Patrick?

Yeah, I couldn't agree with that more.

Where I think that that is, you know, Jerry Nadler retiring, which was the primary you referenced with, Alex Boras.

You know, and he was very open about it.

We were like, look like I just don't, you know, I think it is time for, you know, the another generation to have have a shot at this, you know, and to see what kind of ideas they can come up with.

But yeah, I think that is a lot of what we see of these people not want to give their seats up is just like, you know, they like the status, they like the celebrity, and they kind of struggle to be like, well, what would I do, you know, if I were not, you know, in the state Assembly or in Congress or United States Senator?

Yeah.

I mean, I think it's a range for people.

I mean, I've talked about my dad and his lack of identity when he retired and how he has struggled in retirement.

I see that point from Mark, but I do think identity is a big part of it.

But I also think it's just the connection to power and influence.

My dad loves being retired.

I hear so much about pickleball, in in Maryland.

Love it.

My goodness gracious.

Yeah.

He and he's I hear a lot about his pickleball game, which I'm always happy to.

He seems thrilled, but yeah, no, I also don't I think I would struggle tremendously with retirement, but.

Listen, viewers on YouTube is saying, says, Evan, your critical lens makes you a better shot at providing oversight.

I think that's in regard to my comments about I, yeah, I, I don't know.

I mean, I'm not saying that someone at 57 or 67 can't provide oversight to I, I am saying that there are certain issues that I do not just want one age cohort in charge of it.

Yeah, it's I mean, those are the two big things I want to talk about.

You know, in the lens of this conversation were student loans and I because I think both of them are so illustrative, just like the way the world is changing.

Chuck Grassley was born in, what, 1933, 20?

19.

Yes.

1933.

Yeah.

And he is the guy, you know, he's like, he's the guy who will probably have a big role in drafting much the legislation.

You know, the comes of this, right when you think about committees.

And yeah, I just do we trust who is not even a boomer but like an older member of the Silent Generation might even predate the Silent Generation to be the person who's like, I understand, you know, the cutting edge of technology in this country.

Chuck Grassley's grandfather was alive of the Civil War, and he is crafting major policy.

Yeah, yeah.

I can see a world in which that is not sit well with many people.

On tech.

And again, there's a danger to starting to sound adjust with this.

And I don't want to sound a just I, I struggle with this because Patrick made the point about music, but I actually think about this in this context a lot.

The older we get, the more tempting it is to the kids these days, right?

I mean, it's so tempting to do that in a lot of ways that should be resisted.

Now, one of the things I think is valuable to know is that there are plenty of opinions that you hold today that you may not hold in five or 10 or 30 years.

I do not believe all of the same things at 47 that I did at 37 or 20 7 or 17, and that's valuable to me.

That comes with what I think is the accumulation of an idea about the world and wisdom.

So I, I do think it's valuable to think that as we get older, the way we see the world will change, hopefully for the wiser, for the better.

But that doesn't mean, again, that somebody in their 20s or in their early 30s or Jon Ossoff is 39, he could be the next president.

So, I think this cuts both ways, and I don't want to be I don't want to host a conversation that just implies that age equals bad.

It's not.

No.

And yeah, I absolutely not say that either.

Right.

There are senators who are in their 80s who are very clearly still spry, you know, and able to, you know, clearly engage with policy.

You know, I think Bernie's a fantastic example of this, but also there are more, Senator, there are equally as many senators who are over 80 and under 50.

There's an equal number.

It's eight of both.

Eight of us are eight senators under the age of 58, over the age of 80.

Yes.

That's pretty that is pretty remarkable.

Yeah.

And what does that say about, you know, the priorities, the way they view the world, you know, and how in step it is with their the respective constituents.

You know, I think it is fair to have questions about that.

And yeah, I would I hope that nobody's, you know, hearing what I'm saying.

It's just like we shouldn't have, you know, people of a certain age in office anymore that would never, be, what I would want to say.

You don't want to see an aged, like, 78 presidency or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, it'd be anti-democratic in 15 different ways.

But, you know.

I agree with.

That.

It should be fairer.

You know, it should be easier to question your elected officials and to say, like, is this the best guy for the job still?

Right?

You know, in a way that I think often it has not been for the last 20 years.

Let me get Jeremy in Rochester on the phone.

Hey, Jeremy, go ahead.

Hi.

Evan, you and I are probably about the same age.

I've been politically active for maybe 20 or 25 years.

Voted for different parties.

It is the same as it ever was.

And there's a line from the movie WarGames that I'll clean it up, he says.

The general says I would whiz on a spark plug if I thought I'd do any good.

It's time for new ideas because the old ideas aren't working.

It doesn't matter what party.

That's all I got.

Have a good day.

Jeremy.

Thank you.

Patrick, you just gave a thumbs up to that.

Yeah, well.

Yeah, I think that is just that sentiments like that are becoming much more popular.

I think that the reason we're having this conversation, right, where, you know, this is a topic of discourse in a way that you know, it just like has not been.

I think part of that is Congress getting, you know, both older statistically and also visibly older, right?

Where you've had like, you know, whether it's McConnell or Feinstein or, you know, some of the other ones where, you know, I think they're, you know, like, oh, this we worried this person is losing a step, you know.

But yeah, it is.

And also people's just general dissatisfaction with the political environment.

You know, I think people are ready for change.

I mean, the Daily Show I did we did in fact, check this.

I mean, they claimed last night that six, six members of Congress had died in office in the last term.

That's true.

And that is true.

Okay.

I mean, that is that's remarkable.

Yeah.

I think it's 4 or 5 House Dems and then Lindsey Graham, if I'm not mistaken.

Okay.

Off air from a listener.

I dearly wish we had an advisory senior states person type role for these elders.

Their wisdom has value, but their overwhelming and long standing presence blocks the introduction of newer ideas.

Not even getting into the power of the two parties and superPACs.

Recently strengthened by Scotus gerrymandering and abysmal voter turnout.

So this person is saying, yeah, be an elder state person, add your voice, but don't hog the stage or the policymaking.

What do you think?

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, that's I think she speaks to well, much of this is about which is you know, I think if, you know, people thought the country is headed in a great direction, and if people thought, you know, they they like their government representatives, and if people thought, you know, the world was the world that they wanted to see, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Right.

I think this is kind of downstream of how frustrated and how upset people feel with the world.

And, you know, the political environment and their economic prospects.

Couple of comments from YouTube.

One says when Schumer was born, Taft was president.

I don't think so.

Yeah.

Now, now you're challenging my my presidential timelines.

But Chuck Schumer is not a young person.

And that's I mean, again, that's not a criticism of Chuck Schumer.

He has been around.

He's been around.

He has been around.

It was Truman was president, not Taft, but okay.

And maybe that was just a snarky comment.

Maybe that was like saying Lincoln was president when Schumer was.

I would be curious to know who is president.

And Grassley was born Coolidge.

1933.

That sounds correct.

No, it's maybe FDR.

No, I think that is FDR by the FDR because he had the 12 years right after, Hoover and so Hoover until March of that year.

And then it was FDR.

We you got it on the second.

I have a marketing degree.

It's, you know, I have expected on.

Another comment on YouTube.

I'm still thinking about the caller, Andrew, saying is mortgage is $285 000.

I mean, thank God the video is not on me.

I think my jaw dropped for a good seconds.

But but Andrew said he bought his house 27 years ago and it was a different time.

And in the last decade, the explosion on this has has really, really buried a lot of people.

I mean, that's Andrew is not wrong to say rent and mortgage is a singular issue in this country that needs solving.

Yeah.

But again, if you're a person who's in these offices and your mortgage payment is $285, do you understand that?

Well.

No, that's an interesting point, because probably most of the people who are in elected office do not have, these stratospheric.

And if they did have a mortgage, it was likely around that that idea.

Right, where this, you know, conceptually, I imagine it would be difficult to get them to understand that your mortgage payment and your student loan payment could be 50% of your take home income.

If you're and that's as a person with like, a good job.

American senators are also rich.

And if you I mean that's.

The other thing.

Right?

Yeah.

I mean, if you've got a big mortgage and they can.

Absorb it, it's already dealing from the small population.

We're like, well, I don't have a market because my dad just bought me a house with his car dealership money, you know?

So I'll give you the last 30s you didn't agree with Mark Johns earlier this hour on term limits.

So what's what's something that you would like to see happen that you would think make for a healthier system?

I think Congress getting a lot of its power back, right, and functioning as a true co-equal branch of government.

And, you know, doing anything other than kind of serving as a cheerleader or opposition force for the president.

It would go a long way to help people.

I do think that, you know, higher congressional staff budgets, you know, more empowered committees could go a long way towards making people feel, you know, like their viewpoints represented, even if they're not a fan of whoever the current president is.

And, like, they have a voice for that.

Right?

Because I think that much of it is like, you know, in the last 20 years, Congress is pretty much ceded all of its roles to do anything other than like pass one reconciliation bill a year.

But now I actually think that's really interesting.

And that's a conversation for another day, because there's a lot of talk about the executive lurch toward more power and accumulation, but that has not been able to happen without Congress willingly ceding it.

Yeah.

Willingly ceding it.

Yeah.

And for variety of incentives.

But yeah, it's I think it is inseparable from people's dissatisfaction with the world around us.

Our thanks to Mark Johns, who joined us earlier this hour.

Patrick Coyle, chief of staff of the Rochester Genesee Valley Area Labor Federation.

Thanks for being here.

Oh, it's always, it's always a treat.

David.

Thanks for.

Having me.

Great to have you more connections coming up.

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