>> From WXXI.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

>> Our connection this hour was made a couple of months ago.

When Michelle Obama was responding to a question about whether she would consider running for president, she remains one of the most popular Democrats in the country.

But she responded essentially no way, and not in small part because she had come to doubt whether this country would ever elect a woman.

After the elections of 2016 and 2020.

Four weeks later, talking to podcaster Alex Cooper, Obama clarified her remarks.

But they had already sparked a fire of discussion.

The Democratic Party is likely to head into 2028 with a lot of electoral advantages.

A historically unpopular president from the opposite party, who has served two terms for starters.

But the party is nowhere close to settled on who its nominee should be.

It's a wide open field, and there are a number of Democratic women who could lead the ticket.

Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer has explored a run for the White House.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is being courted by some party activists and leaders.

Former Vice President Kamala Harris says she's considering another campaign, and there are other glass ceilings that could be broken.

There are a couple of Jewish candidates who could be the first Jewish person to become president in the field for the Democrats, but will the party decide it's too risky to try to break a glass ceiling?

Will they focus on identity in the same way that Vice President Harris explained her decision not to choose Pete Buttigieg as her running mate?

Harris wrote in her book that the former transportation secretary was her top choice, but she said that asking the country to vote for a black woman was already a lot.

Asking them to vote for a gay man was a bridge too far for Vice President Harris.

And so she went with Minnesota Governor Tim Walz.

Our guest will have a lot to say about this, and let me welcome them now.

Lester McCoy is a Monroe County legislator from district number 18.

Welcome, legislator.

Nice to see you.

>> Thank you.

Good to see you too, Evan.

Thanks for having me on.

>> Kelly Cheadle is an artist and a community organizer.

Welcome to you.

>> Hi, everybody.

>> Nice to have you here.

And later this hour we're going to be joined by Jerry Lynn Sparks, who's a former congressional press secretary.

So let's let's start by listening to some of the comments that sparked some of this.

If we could, I think, can we do that?

Yeah.

Okay.

So the first one is Michelle Obama.

This is kind of what sparked the initial discussion about identity and whether the country is ready for a woman.

Let's listen.

>> Well, as we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain't ready.

That's why I'm like, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying.

You're not ready for a woman.

You are not.

So don't waste my time.

You know, we got a lot of growing up to do, and there's still I'm sadly, a lot of men who do not feel like they can be led by a woman.

And we saw it.

>> Okay, so that you can understand the passion there.

Now let's listen to Michelle Obama talking to podcaster Alice Cooper.

And, you know, I think clarifying some of those remarks.. >> That statement was, you know, there was the humor of it, like, stop looking at me.

Right?

You know, so it's also my wry humor.

It's like, come on, people.

>> As a country, what do we need to do to be ready?

>> Let's not be mad because I made the statement.

Let's look at the fact that we've had two really qualified female candidates.

One who was first lady, secretary of state, well educated, you know, my husband beat her, right?

People were more comfortable with him as a newcomer.

Right.

And now we just had the former the former vice president.

You know, we've had we've had qualified women and they just, you know, again, if they're not perfect and they don't cross every T and dot every, I, there's a falling shortness that is happening that I, you know, I'd say, well, why can't we talk about that?

>> All right.

Legislator McCoy, what do you hear there?

What comes to mind when you hear Michelle Obama really challenging whether this country would elect a woman?

>> Well, I understand what she's saying.

I understand where she's coming from.

And I see where she came back and she kind of clarified what she was talking about.

But I agree with her.

I agree that the country when Kamala lost, we got to the point where we were like, okay, Trump is back in now that Trump is back in, we see the damage that has been done with his presidency.

Now people are ready.

At one point I was like, I don't know if people are ready for anyone besides a male, a white male.

At one point now, we had Obama, but, uh, now now people have been woken up.

We'll say, and they now have the ability to see that being indecisive about who is leading them and who is leading their country, or just being flippant about who is leading their country is not going to lead us down the path of prosperity.

And we see that.

And we saw the people that were out at the No Kings rally.

Um, this past weekend.

The passion that is out there, people are now awake and they are ready.

They're ready for a competent leader.

>> A competent leader, no matter who that person is.

>> Correct.

>> Do you think this country is more likely in 2028 to elect a nonwhite male candidate?

>> I absolutely do, I absolutely do.

It's it's competence.

We need someone that is competent to lead this country back to where we were.

We were one of the top countries, uh, financially that came out of Covid, um, it's, it's been ruined since then.

Our relationships internationally have been ruined since then.

It is about a competent leader being in the White House and bringing America back to who we were.

The melting pot that we are.

But that is still a strong leader within the world.

>> Kelly, what hits your ears when you hear the the former first lady there talking the way she she did on those various settings there.

>> So you know, at first you have your gut reaction, but then, you know, I want to think about context.

So like the first lady is being interviewed about, you know, this, this concept of, you know, whether or not she should run.

First of all, I'm not a big fan of dynasties.

So just because somebody has a name and name recognition does not mean she is remarkably qualified.

She's a lawyer, she's brilliant.

I'm not going to doubt her skills, but this was an interview about a book that she was releasing.

>> So, you know, like the premise of the question for her.

>> I think that, well, no, not that I don't like the premise of the question for her, but like, we are I mean, and maybe this speaks to the challenge that we have with female candidates.

Her statement is being hyper analyzed.

And yet the president of the United States can say that we don't have money for Medicare because we have to have money for a war.

Like, why are we taking a discussion about that?

>> Oh, yeah, I hear that.

And and we do plan to.

>> Oh, and I'm.

>> Sure and I suspect every ad in the country that run by Democrats in the fall may have that clip.

>> I hope they do.

And some of this also speaks to the system, you know, like to reduce the losses of Hillary Clinton and, um, uh.

Kamala Harris, Kamala Harris, thank you.

Word word recall sometimes is difficult.

Um, to just their gender is, uh, oversimplification.

I think there were other factors involved in their losses that if we don't discuss those factors, we're doing ourselves a disservice and we're doing future candidates a disservice because like, were those candidates?

I mean, poor Kamala got kind of dumped in midway during the process, didn't go through the, the formal, um, primary process that would have kind of brought up more of these conversations, introduced her more to the country, yada, yada.

We need to have a way for the American public to vet their candidates beyond soundbites.

And it's really difficult in this world where, uh, you know, I think of like the first video that showed on MTV video Killed the Radio Star.

You have people who are incredibly talented, but because they didn't fit this new medium, we lost them.

Like we didn't listen to them anymore because they didn't, they didn't look the part.

What presidents are we missing?

Because they don't look the part?

Are they the soundbites that they say that are cogent aren't selected?

>> So when you say we shouldn't just look at gender, that there's other factors involved.

I mean, first of all, I think that's correct.

But I also am curious to know.

So just let's take Hillary Clinton, Secretary Clinton runs in 2016.

Mhm.

Um, do you think she lost because she was a woman?

>> I'm not necessarily capable of that sort of meta analysis of like, what particular reasons?

You know, I have a gut reaction.

Um, I don't think that she connected to, um, middle America, the broad spectrum of America.

I think she, um, she missed, you know, back in the day, I was a big fan of Bernie still am.

Um, he was speaking to the needs of the average American person.

Um, he was speaking to Trump voters and had he had the opportunity, I think he would have been able to win over many of those people because he was speaking to the economic hurt.

He was speaking to the difficulty of keeping food on the table.

Um, for health care, for all of these things that are bread and butter issues.

Um, and it's difficult because, you know, how do you.

How do you have a deep policy discussion about why you don't just go and decide to attack Iran with folks who are worried about how they're going to feed their kids?

Like that's yes, that's a, that is an existential threat, you know, causing a new war.

But that's so beyond the, the battle that they're fighting at home to just stay alive.

>> Yeah.

And so I think part of how I think about just taking 2016 is there's a school of thought that says someone with exactly Hillary Clinton's resume, but a man instead of a woman wins that election.

And I can understand that there's no way to prove to your point exactly how many voters would have flipped a vote or dug in because it was a woman.

We'll never know that the election in 2016 were so close.

20,000 votes in Wisconsin, you know, 10,000 votes in a couple states like that, that could have flipped it, that it's easy to imagine that that might have been a tipping point.

But what I'm hearing from you is don't lose sight of the fact that you think criticisms of her actual campaign, her policy, her approach to Americans is also fair.

>> Absolutely.

I would like to get beyond the conversation of gender.

>> Just identity.

>> And I well, I mean, identity does influence how you move in the world and how other people move with you.

So that's that was it.

But like, give the American people some credit, if you give them a chance to actually hear from a candidate, to actually have, um, policies looked at and talked about instead of just reduced to soundbites, you know, I've sat there and watched press conferences with the president from start to finish.

And then I will listen to a news broadcast that picks out the two times that he was able to string words together cogently and be like, um, did you guys watch the same press conference that I did?

Why is no one telling the emperor he has no clothes?

So for as much as this is about the candidate, it's also about the way in which the information about the candidates is distributed to the American people.

>> Yeah.

Also, I think fair, um, legislator McCoy, when it comes to 2024, is it your feeling that someone with Kamala Harris's resume but a man instead of a woman, everything else being the same?

Does that candidate get elected?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> Do you think so?

>> Yes.

And I think that is exactly why she picked him to be her VP candidate.

Um, because he spoke to that, uh, part of the country where they couldn't deal with having her as the, as the leader of the free country.

>> He was supposed to speak to that part.

Yeah, yeah, he.

>> Was supposed to.

Yeah, he did.

>> Oh, no.

Oh, yeah.

I think he certainly attempted to.

Yeah he did.

>> Yeah.

He did.

Um, and.

>> Then what I'm saying is I don't know how many votes Tim Walz flipped, but I understand the purpose of him on the ticket.

>> Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Um, I do appreciate that they did go out into middle America as you as you brought up, uh, I believe that's a part of America, even, even rural areas here in Western New York.

That's forgotten by the Democrats or taken for granted by the Democratic Party.

Um, they're out there.

They want to hear from you.

They also have Connections with the struggles that people in inner cities have.

So bring the message out there, bring that message to middle America.

Um, as a human being, it doesn't again, I go back to it doesn't have to be a male, a female, gay, straight, whatever, just as a human being speaking to them as a human being, letting them know, you know, hey, here's what's going on.

Here are my policies to fix what you have going on and being very clear, um, in that message.

>> I think part of why we're having this conversation that might in some ways annoy people, which I, I'm going to say it kind of annoys me that we're still kind of doing this.

>> I agree.

>> The reason I think it matters is a couple of points here.

Number one, having covered a lot of elections, every election, the biggest election of our lifetimes.

But now it sort of feels like it kind of really is all the time.

Um, there's a lot riding on elections.

Correct.

Um, and there always was, but there, it feels especially really, really sort of on the precipice now and then you even have people like Kamala Harris and her book saying, you know, I, I couldn't really go with Pete.

Like she wanted to pick Pete Buttigieg.

Yeah.

She questioned whether the country would put a gay person into the White House.

So this question of identity and glass ceilings is not just sort of construction of the media.

I mean, like there are candidates themselves.

The vice president herself was wondering and and it held her back.

You look like you're questioning there, Kelly.

>> I, I question everything.

It's the joy of being an artist.

No, I think, you know, there's this whole idea of, are we ready for a female candidate?

Are we ready if we wait until we are ready, it will never happen.

Like if I waited to be ready to be a parent, there would be four incredible young adults that would not exist.

>> That's the truest thing I've ever heard.

>> Like so like this idea that like, so true.

I think like would like if I asked you a year and a half ago, can New York have a socialist mayor and openly socialist mayor, you would look at me like I had six heads.

>> New York City.

I think I would have said, you know, that probably could hamstring him, but that's where you'd win if you.

>> Were okay.

So could we have a woman president?

Evan?

>> Oh, do I think we can?

Yes.

>> Okay.

So like, I think that that makes sense to me.

Like.

>> Do I think misogyny affects vote totals?

I'm with legislator McCoy.

I think, yes, it's impossible to measure how many.

>> Yes.

>> Right.

Do I think do I think Pete Buttigieg could elect could get elected as a gay person?

Yes.

Do I think it would be harder because he's gay?

Yes.

Do I think Josh Shapiro could get elected or Jon Ossoff as a Jewish person?

Yes.

Do I think it will be harder?

In some ways, yes.

And in some ways maybe.

No, I don't know.

>> So maybe that's maybe that's more of the question is like, what are the privileges of white, male, white, straight, white maleness that give them a pass?

Like, why are we giving the president a pass for being incapacitated and not able to do his job?

Like if that were Kamala and Kamala were at the position?

>> And are we talking about Biden or Trump now?

We're talking about Trump.

>> Trump.

I mean, honestly, you could probably even say the same thing about about Biden.

Like there is.

And also like, you have to factor in how does this impact or how has this impacted by the power structures that exist?

Like who is, who is best served?

Yeah.

>> It's, I was going to say it's the power structure.

It's the handshakes, it's who's in the room, who makes those decisions.

Right?

And then it's those people taking a look, taking a look around that room, seeing who's there, seeing who's not there.

And are they willing to do something about that?

>> So, um, you mentioned that you do think now though, that what held Kamala Harris back the votes that didn't go to her because of gender specifically, you think that that can be overcome in 2028?

>> I do.

>> So what's changed to make?

Here's why.

Partially why I ask and partially why I still think this is a really relevant conversation, right?

We have an overt movement on the far right that used to be sort of fringy and laughed at.

That is now very popular among young men.

Again, it may not be mainstream, but it is not in the fringe.

The sort of the male influencer culture.

And they talk openly about how women are to blame for everything and.

>> Who should funding them.

>> Who's funding them?

Yes, that's a good question.

>> I mean.

>> That part well, I mean, certainly people like Elon Musk, people like Peter Thiel.

>> So are they popular?

Are they well funded and well broadcasted?

>> Oh, I mean, okay, so that's a chicken and egg thing.

But I do think the popularity is real and that they have a lot of young teens and 20 something males who do look up to figures who talk about women in ways that were way out of bounds ten years ago.

And so I don't I don't know how much more ascendent that could be, if that will always be, you know, a single digit chunk of the electorate or it's like, are we going back there?

I don't know, I mean, it feels really weird.

>> It does feel weird.

It feels really tradwife thing like, yeah, totally weird.

>> It feels.

>> But I think.

>> I feel, I feel like so naive.

Yeah.

Even feels weird because Kelly's probably like I told you.. >> Right.

>> Come on, Kelly, I told.

>> You.

I mean, like, so for for me, you know, if we all had really solid American history teachers or world history teachers back in the day who could teach us not a very narrow curriculum, we would see this is the same song with different instruments.

This is the same thing that, uh, empires have done throughout history.

What do you do when you want to stay in power?

You divide the people.

How do you divide the people?

You make someone the other.

That's right.

You harken back to like traditional values.

You take women out of the position of power and you put them back into the home.

I have no problem if someone wants to be, uh, making corn flakes at 2:00 in the morning so that their family has them fresh, if that's their choice, but don't pretend that that tradwife material that's on, uh, Facebook and Instagram and whatever isn't generated by a staff of 50 people to make it look like they're like, we are marketing the same way we are marketing subpar candidates to maintain the power structure.

We are marketing and, and manufacturing this content to brainwash our young adults into thinking that it's acceptable to, um, be a misogynist.

It's not acceptable.

And, you know, if mom and dad are working three jobs and they're not home to provide guidance to their kid and say, whoa, that's totally not cool for you to, to speak to someone like that.

They're relying upon you to like, we're, we're creating this like self imploding nonsense that's just going to send us all to, to like work camps.

>> Yeah.

Kids are grown up online.

They're being raised sort of by online values in many ways.

So that's how to your point about the staff of people and the money that backs this stuff.

That's one thing.

But if it didn't have any purchase, then, you know, they would fund something else.

But but it's popular with some people.

I mean, like young men.

>> Of course it is.

Of course it is.

Because again, it's been marketed appropriately.

And, and I just saw, I forgot the, uh, the show on Netflix, uh, that talked about the, the young men and the influencers.

Um, it's, I had no idea.

I'm like you, Evan.

I had no idea all this was going on.

And it's pretty disgusting.

>> The manosphere documentary.

>> Did you see?

Yeah.

That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

You'll have to watch it.

It was pretty incredible.

>> Your brain might ooze out your ears by the end of it.

Just like mine.

But.

But it's still.

I mean, it's worth knowing what's out there, right?

>> That part it's worth knowing.

It's worth knowing what the, the next generation is really into what they're, what they're grabbing onto.

And Kelly, to your point, it's being funded.

I totally agree that it's being funded, but just like they can be funded, we can also fund the good.

>> Are.

>> Well, it also I mean, like the other, the other piece of this is so I'm, uh, my generation.

So I was born in 77.

So you can do the math.

Um, I was told, you know, I could be anything.

I could do anything.

No one ever told me.

You might not want to do all the things at once.

So there is real burnout of like, oh, crap, I thought I could have a job.

Um, like a career and kids and this and that and that.

And then you're realizing this is you can't have all of these things you have to choose because we aren't, you know, giving people the resources they need.

We're not paying people a living wage, you know, like it's not possible to have all of the things in your sanity.

So that sort of.

Uh, aspirational existence of like, ah, I just wake up in the morning and I, I just take care of my kids and everything's lovely, you know, we're erasing the parts where like, you know, on the frontiers days, there were bears that would come and like destroy, you know, like, so we're painting this imaginary escapism that is tempting because life is not working.

So why do you know if I'm giving you an option of an easy answer of, oh, you can just stay at home and make corn flakes, or you can go and you can change this system that is designed to eat people.

The corn flakes sound a lot better.

Yeah.

>> Maybe you do.

>> I, I see your point.

I do see your point, Kelly.

Um, I saw this when I got elected and I started working with the county legislature and being on the inside of, of government.

I didn't have sometimes the luxury that, let's say my white male counterparts had, um, some of them are retired.

And so this is not County ledge is not a full time job.

It is part time.

And the majority of US legislators have a full time job that we're doing.

Um, but if you think about going back, who is available to do these kind of positions and to be self-funded so they could be involved in, in government, it is not people that look like me at all.

Um, so to your point about the burnout, doing the full time job, doing county ledge, raising kids, everything else that comes with life, it is a lot of burnout, but our generation, that's what we do.

But we're tired now.

So I see the cool thing is, and then I'm going to bring up being an African American female in this whole No Kings rally, and seeing some of the soundbites of, hey, this is not the fight for for black people or for for women or black women.

I agree with that because we have been fighting for a long time.

Don't get me wrong, I don't need to generalize it.

Yes, there are those that that did not go out there and fight.

Those are there are those that decided to always stay on the sideline, but.

Which is fine.

But as someone who was always out there when I was living in Houston, I was out there downtown Houston after George Floyd was murdered, um, protesting.

I was down there in Houston for the Women's March, like totally involved.

But after you do it so much and you don't see the change, my my sister in law ran for, uh, representative down there in Houston.

It's, it's you're tired.

You're kind of beat down, right?

So you need other people, which is so great to see with the no Kings rally out there, the volume of Americans that are out there that have never protested before is incredible.

And this is why I lean towards Evan, even though there's a part of me that's like, I don't know yet, but there's a part.

There's a there's a big part of me that says, we're ready.

We're ready because of the current movement, the groundswell in this country for better.

>> And I just want to bookend that.

If only.

And I'm going to as a white woman, if only we had listened to all of the black women and black men who were like, hey, this is a problem.

You know, why did it take that problem becoming a problem for white people, for them to show up?

And I'm not saying like all, you know, like, obviously there is a portion of the community that is stepping up regardless, but like en masse.

Why has it taken this long for us to realize that?

What impacts my neighbor impacts me?

Like this whole time, like we, we failed to close the loopholes in the Constitution around slavery.

Slavery is still legal in the United States.

If you are in prison.

We did not get rid of that.

And so now we are all subject to getting hoovered up into one of these detention camps.

If, um, you know, Ice decides to pick us up one day and we aren't backed by whatever legal supports are necessary to extricate us or there's not enough people out there fighting.

So, you know, and a lot of this is, uh, someone used the comparison to a chorus sustaining a note like, you can't.

I can only hold a note.

Well, I might not be able to hold a note at all, but, like, theoretically, I can only hold a note for what?

Maybe 30s.

But if I'm there in a group, I take a breath and someone else fills in.

So that's what we need to do.

We need to go out there, rest.

Someone else goes out there.

>> Legislator McCoy.

Do you look at the No Kings rallies and say, where the hell have you been?

Uh, because I, I mean, I've.

seen Kelly's, I think well-articulated point.

I've seen in more in the online spaces.

It looks more like the.

Well, where the hell have you been?

Yeah.

And you know, a little more frustrated, like, oh, you'll come out for this, but not that.

Right?

Do you feel that way?

>> Um, in the beginning.

Yes.

Yeah.

To be very honest.

Um.

>> But not.

>> Now.

>> Because again, it takes, uh, all right, I'm going to take it back to, uh, before I had children, right.

I would see my sister in law.

She, she was dealing with the kids.

She was dealing with X, y, Z and I'm like, God, why don't she just do this?

Or why didn't she just do that?

Right?

We're just, you know, just do this, you know, Monday morning quarterback over here.

And then I had my own kids.

I went through the gantlet with having children.

Um, and I'm like, God, I'm sorry, I didn't know I did, I didn't know, and that's exactly how I feel about people that are now seeing what's going on with what has happened with, you know, minorities.

And it's right in front of their face.. >> And so and so you think, like, I, if it took this long, that's like, welcome in.

Or do you are you frustrated?

>> It's both.

It's both.

Yeah.

It's both and it's welcoming.

Um, I'm glad you finally see it.

But then God.

Okay.

Did it have to take this long?

Roll up the sleeves?

Yeah.

Get going.

That's that's it.

Kelly.

It's it's.

>> It's all the more reason that we need to fund arts education because if we want to cultivate empathy in people so that something doesn't have to happen to them first for them to feel for their brother or sister, you know, we could have the kids go to the theater and experience that.

Doesn't that seem like a pipe dream right now?

But I don't think it is.

>> The artist is always going to advocate for the always going.

>> To advocate for arts funding.

>> So let me just get let me just get a few emails from listeners and then at Connections at wxxi.org.

And then, um, we'll welcome a third guest on the line coming up here, someone who's been on this program before, one of the co-founders of the, um, some of the Democrats in the rural parts of Monroe County, Jerry Lynn Sparks has been organizing with them.

And she's a former congressional press secretary.

Briefly here, three different women write into the show saying Kamala Harris did not lose because she's a woman.

She lost because of her stance on Palestine.

Do you agree with that?

Kelly?

>> I mean, if you're looking at vote totals, there is a large portion of the country that recognized that there was a genocide happening in Gaza that was not was being pushed like that conversation wasn't allowed to happen.

Um, and it's sad seeing people not being motivated to vote because they don't see that existential threat of not voting.

But also we have to give people a reason to vote.

So if I'm going to go out there and I'm on the fence, if someone is ignoring a key issue to me and I don't see my government moving and making strides to protect people, you know, if if you're saying my voice doesn't matter here, then why does my vote matter?

So we have to like, we have to have conversations even when they're difficult, and especially if you're going to be the president.

>> Okay.

What do you think they're Lystra.

>> I would agree.

Um, it's those difficult conversations that have to come to light that we have to have.

And now we are having and now people get it and people are there are a lot of American citizens that are doing a lot of work to understand and to learn what is going on and how we got here.

And it's amazing.

And it's extremely exciting to see, um, again, the dichotomy of what took you so long and welcome in, uh, but it's, but again, it's, we have to embrace them and we have to allow them to learn and to move forward.

It's just like with anything in life.

And I understand the group of people that are like too little, too late.

I understand they're angry, they're tired, and there will be those people and rightly so.

And they are fine having those feelings because what matters is the groundswell of people that have jumped in and started making their voice heard about how this needs to change.

>> And like, blessed are the teachers who are giving us space to learn because like, did you come out of the womb knowing everything that you know now, right?

Yeah, we're gonna mess up.

And if we're not messing up, we're not doing anything difficult.

>> Right?

>> Uh, so Charlie writes in to say, Evan, I do not believe this country will vote for a woman for president.

I've had male friends from both conservative and liberal say there's absolutely no way they'd vote for a woman.

It disgusts me.

It frustrates me.

I think we're stuck with this outdated thinking for a few more decades, and I hope I am wrong.

>> Wow.

>> Why are they still your friends?

>> Wow wow.

I mean, no, but but well, Kelly too.

I'm one.

I'm of the mind where it will take all different kinds of friends.

>> That's true.

That's true.

>> Because we have all different kinds of people in this world.

Um, and it may take a while for them to see your side of things.

It may take a while for you to see their side of things, but if you remain their friend, I believe within time it'll be easier to help each other out and to see how this is affecting a particular group, or in turn, or in themselves.

>> And look at how this conversation just happened.

She just flipped me from a Na to a yeah, you have a point.

Look at look at how nice that works.

When we when we talk with one another, okay, we're done.

It's easy to give a flip answer, you know, like to like, why are they still your friends?

But like, yes, like you do have to have those conversations and challenge them.

Like, what do you mean?

Like, where did that, that idea come from?

>> Yeah, yeah.

Um, let me get one more.

John wants to say that, uh, he says, Evan, the irony is that I do not believe Democrats.

Our party is going is going to put another woman forward, at least not in 2028.

And we're going to miss the boat.

On the best candidate, Gretchen Whitmer.

>> I feel like they're right.

Sadly.

>> That's from Jon, but.

>> Go ahead.

Yeah, John, I feel like you're right.

I feel like the establishment is a little bit burned from what happened with.

>> Something, quote, unquote safe.

>> Yeah, they want something safe.

>> And John sitting there going like, I think the best candidates, Gretchen Whitmer and if you bypass her because she's not safe enough, then that's also a mistake.

>> That's also a mistake.

>> Okay.

I think that, uh, part of the problem we run into is that we have these complex systems and that when humans think that they can, like influence these complex systems, you have unintended consequences.

Hence Donald Trump, like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if Donald ran because he'd be easy to beat?

Um, not so much that you kind of messed with this, you know, factors that you didn't understand.

So I think, you know, again, the whole idea of like, who's in power, the Democratic establishment, the system of consultants that decided to rein in Tim Waltz when he was calling folks weird for what they were doing, when what they were doing was weird.

And that, that I think resonated with lots of people.

And then all of a sudden it was kind of like a more buttoned up version of Tim Waltz.

They didn't let him let Tim be Tim, you know, and they kind of restrained Kamala too.

Like they this, this amount of control that they put on candidates because like, you have to follow this very narrow line.

They lose their humanity and their connection to the American people that might drive more votes.

Like I would rather have an imperfect but honest person.

I know that sounds like a crazy idea to have an honest person, um, running for, for office, but like.

You, you lose bits of your integrity when you go through this process at that higher, higher level because these consultants and things decide that your image should be honed a certain way.

>> It's financial.

>> Yeah.

>> It's financial.

It's, it's again, if we go back to the whole money in politics, it's, it's financial.

It takes a lot to run for office.

Um, it takes a lot to reach people.

It takes a lot to travel, to speak it, it takes a lot.

And it, it requires a lot.

So the people that are going to fund that.

>> Um.

>> They may not say they want something in return, but it's kind of understood.

>> Now.

They think they're licensed to bring in the consultants and tell you what to say.

And that exactly.

So we have to take our only break of the hour.

We're going to come back, uh, with, uh, uh, we'll welcome in a third guest.

We've got Kelly Cheadle, an artist and community organizer with us, legislator Lystra McCoy from district number 18 in the Monroe County Legislature.

And we'll come right back with Jerry Lynn Sparks, a former congressional press secretary, on Connections.

Coming up in our second hour, it's the Friday news roundup.

We start with the conversation with our colleague John Campbell, talking about a rather controversial proposal from the governor on ways to cut the rate of auto insurance.

But a lot of opposition on that.

We'll talk about it.

We'll also talk to Brian Sharp, my colleague, talking about possible changes to the Red Wings'' stadium in the future.

And we're going to talk to County Clerk Jamie Romeo about changes at the county clerk's office.

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Usb-c Ebsco.com.. >> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson I want to bring in on the line Jerilyn spark to, um.

My first conversation with Jerry was years ago, way back when Jerry was working for Eric Massa in Congress.

She had some very hard jobs in Washington, wrote a book about some of her experience, grew up in North Carolina, understand sort of rural American politics, and has done some Democratic organizing in rural parts of Monroe County.

And Jerry's on the line with us.

Welcome back to the show, Jerry.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> So just briefly, I know you're popping in late here, and I know you've heard some of what has been discussed, but I just want to kind of get your quick takes on this.

Are we focusing too much on the question of gender?

And do you think that that is a valid question for Democrats as they move toward 2028?

>> So I think that you're right.

We are focusing too much on the idea of having a woman president just to have a woman president.

That's not what we need.

We need someone who is elected based on their skills.

And there are many talented women out there.

Um, I think what happened, if you'll allow me to, like, do a little like deconstruction of what happened with Kamala Harris, she tried to skip to the front of the line.

She didn't win a primary.

She wasn't popular.

And at the end of the day, what is a any election, any election is a presidential, especially at the presidential level, is a popularity contest.

Doesn't mean she didn't have the resume for it.

It just meant that winning the primary is what tells the people that this person is electable.

This person is wanted by the public, and she she did very well.

And I think in my lifetime we will see a woman president, but not because she's a woman.

We need to move away from the concept of idealization over the reality of what we're looking at.

And, you know, we keep doing that.

Um, Hillary Clinton, everyone said it felt like, you know, this is her her, right?

This is like, you know, the next thing in her ascendancy.

And she wasn't that popular because of some of the personality characteristics.

And, you know, George Bush, people elected him because they said he's who you want to have a beer with.

You want to have him.

>> In your I, I just say I, I, I'm.

>> Not saying to George Bush, I'm just saying I hear that phrase so often in politics.

Jerry, over the years, I'm like, we still are stuck on who we're having a beer with.

>> So at the end of the day, it's relatability.

Obama won because my God, what a great, relatable person he is.

He's authentic.

I heard one of your callers talking about someone who's honest.

I honestly feel like Obama's just being himself.

Like he's he is he clever?

He's a lawyer.

Yes he is, but I always get the feeling that this man is so confident he doesn't have to hide behind the policy.

He wants to tell him what to think, what to believe.

He is, what he thinks and what he believes.

And that's why he ran.

And that's the kind of authenticity that I feel like we need.

I love Gretchen Whitmer.

I think she's fantastic in it.

And I've said on your program before, the best presidents are governors.

They know how to run a budget.

A state is a mini federal model.

Like, you know how to run a budget, you know how to be the one in charge to make decisions and to have accountability.

And we're just we always do better.

Bill Clinton was a great president, in many ways, and in some ways he failed.

But he was a governor.

Those make the best presidents.

>> Well, okay, so let me get back to some feedback here for all of our guests to jump in on.

First of all, Luis writes to say, uh, Evan, I have six sisters and other female relatives in all age ranges.

They support both parties.

They've told me that they would not support a female president.

It's just not for a woman.

They say, I don't get it, but what can I say?

That's from Luis Luis.

I, I can't imagine that's representative of the full population of people, but that is one person's experience.

And I appreciate the feedback.

Um, and a question from a listener, uh, Carol wants to know why we're not talking about AOC more.

She said, I love AOC.

I want her to stay in Congress.

I don't think she could win in the South, uh, or in purple states, but I think she's great.

So she wants to know why we're not talking about AOC.

Morgan Kelly, should we be talking more about AOC?

>> I think we should be talking about lots of people.

Okay.

Like, I mean, like it's the what year is it?

>> Right?

2026, 2026.

>> Why are we like, like crowning Gavin Newsom?

Like it's 2026, the first primary isn't for how long we should be talking about everybody who is of the caliber, the resume, the whatever to take on the next president.

Let these folks be vetted.

Because if we didn't learn like, like, um, like James was mentioning, like the fact that Kamala skipped the primary process.

And I think.

>> That's her fault, by the way, because President Biden wanted to stay in this thing until well after it was pretty clear that it wasn't going to work.

>> There's lots of and like, you know, even now with with Trump and Vance, you know, like, are they trying to hold on to Trump's like for.

So he makes it to the two year mark so that that way Vance could theoretically be there for ten years.

Like, were they trying to like slip Kamala through by making her the vice president who then became president?

And then you're the incumbent, like, I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback or try and figure out what who, who thought this was a good idea and what plan?

Again, complex systems, if we're trying to like mess with them, we're going to have unintended consequences.

Let the process play out.

Let's see who's raising their hand and say, yes, I'm in or I'm considering it.

Let them float their test bubbles.

Let them have conversations on news programs that are actually substantive, so that we can hear how their brain works, how like, how do they respond to things under stress?

How do they respond to the needs of people?

Do they recognize that people are human beings that are flawed and beautiful and need help?

Sometimes?

Who are they?

We don't know who they are beyond what their marketing images are.

>> So there's time and we'll be talking.

So the.

But the listener said, AOC.

So Lystra two.

>> Yeah.

>> Cara wants to know about AOC.

>> I love AOC, I do, I do, I want her to be in Senate.

Actually.

But if anything that the DNC showed us, I had the privilege of being able to go the amount of amazing young, up and coming Democratic leaders that we have is just we have a whole bench full.

And I agree, Kelly, we need to discuss all of them.

Jasmine Crockett like, like all of them.

There are so many around the country and there are so many different races that that were won around the country that that I'm sure we haven't talked about.

I believe there was a race in Georgia that just happened at the end of last year.

It was like a first female.

Um, I don't know if it was.

I cannot remember the position.

I don't want to get it wrong, but there are so many people out there that we need to continue to look the, the Democratic Party needs to make sure that they're looking at all of those people that were pulled in when we had the DNC, and that came and spoke at the DNC.

There's a lot of them.

>> I have a couple of emails from people saying, similar to what we just heard in studio, be patient and don't anoint yet and don't anoint.

Gavin.

Gavin Newsom.

So Jerry sparks, if you were still advising people, if you were advising campaigns the way maybe you used to, would you tell them, um, step aside.

Gavin Newsom's got this wrapped up.

>> Yeah.

I don't think that Gavin Newsom should be anointed.

Nothing against Gavin Newsom.

But California's already going to go Democrat.

You don't gain anything by having him be the candidate.

He's not bringing his state.

Of course, al Gore didn't carry Tennessee either.

Um, but I don't think that he has enough broad appeal.

I like that he's taking it to Trump.

I like he's got that strength of character.

Um, but can I just go back to a couple of more assessments on Kamala?

One of the things I and again, I join your program late today because I had an appointment, but when I heard that she was the choice, I called my friend who I worked with in Congress, Donna McLean.

And I said, we just all saw the election.

I said the same thing with Hillary, and it's not because I don't think women can win.

I don't think those were the right two candidates.

Hillary more than Kamala, just because of the primary being your like your your muscle.

You got to work that out.

But Kamala's campaign focused highly on abortion and I'm like, oh, what a great way to win by across the aisle bipartisan support.

What you need to do to win by focus on what they consider killing babies.

That is not a positive message.

Bill Clinton won on that famous line.

It's the economy, stupid.

And that's what really happens to voters.

They, they, they really have a hard time identifying with something unless it hits them personally.

What hits us all personally, the ability to have housing and food, that's the economy.

And she didn't focus enough on that.

And identity politics is what's killing the Democratic Party.

>> Well, but say more about that.

What do you mean?

Identity politics is killing the party.

>> So everyone talks about the first woman to do this first, you know, identity group to do this or just looking at anything that has to do with social things that really I don't think maybe belong at the federal level to the intensity that they are.

Now, I know that we need to have some protections.

Absolutely.

I'm all for that.

But the thing you need to focus on is the purpose of government is what what is the purpose of government?

Do Democrats really have a different definition of what the purpose of government is?

I think your voters have shown repeatedly they don't want war and they want to have a good economy.

Those are the two things.

And Trump is failing on both of those.

By the way.

>> Well, certainly what's really interesting, if you look at the way Trump polls his strongest issues a year, a year ago, a year and a half ago, when he was winning the election, were immigration, which has collapsed among independents who've been horrified by what they see by Ice.

And on the economy, which has collapsed, um, in huge numbers, really only sort of the Maga core is still with him in most cases now.

So the door is open in general.

Kelly, do you agree with Jerry that it's it's can you get housing?

Can you get food?

Focus on the economy, focus on human needs there.

>> I think for someone to have the capacity to consider things beyond their household, they have to have their basic needs met.

And we are denying the basic needs of people.

So how do if I'm worried about staying alive, how can I consider something beyond that?

So.

And so it does come down to this sort of meta economy version, I would say like even just, um, are your basic needs being met?

You know, like, are we free in America if I cannot get sick and not be certain that I will have a house, can am I free in America if, um, I lose my job and I'm not going to have a place to be.

>> Like if I slip on a patch of ice and break my leg, am I going bankrupt?

>> AM I going bankrupt?

And if if Lystra is not free, if you're not free, am I free?

So like, if you can't deal with those basic needs, how am I supposed to think about the high and.

And I would argue that like the need to be recognized as a trans person, as a person is a basic need.

But again, if that's not something that, you know, my impacts me directly, even though it does impact me directly because of family.

Like, um, if that's not in my, my bubble and I'm got this bubble really tight to my, my person at the moment because I'm fearful for fear, I think is the key word because I'm afraid for my basic existence.

How can my, how can my heart grow three sizes to include more people?

And that's by design.

Like if we are fearful, if we are afraid, then we don't care for people outside of our bubbles.

>> Well, and our last 90s I got to be real quick here.

So Jerry, about 30s here, the panel talked earlier about how President Trump last week, and we're going to talk about this soon, said we can't pay for daycare.

We can't cover all of Medicare and Medicaid.

That should be up to the states.

We're busy with the military.

I mean, that's going to be in a lot of Democratic ads.

As you know, Jerry Lynn Sparks.

>> Um, but, but.

>> For the listeners, like John who said, hey, as a Democrat, don't make this about identity so much that you won't select a woman if a woman is the most viable candidate, if and in his words, it was Gretchen Whitmer.

But regardless, what do you think the party will choose not to try a glass ceiling candidate just because of fear?

Jerry?

>> Um, yeah, I think that they've been burned twice.

I think Whitmer is a great candidate.

I think Elise Slotkin would be a fantastic candidate.

Um, Andy Beshear would be a great candidate.

But I think the Democratic Party needs to do some real numbers.

It's a popularity contest.

And fear is one of the things.

Safety is what people care about.

Who is going to make you feel safe and that they can improve the economy as a governor.

So it could be Whitmer, it could be, um, Andy Beshear should be a governor.

>> Okay, so.

>> Jerry wants the governor.

Lystra hasn't decided yet, but.

>> I've not.

Again, a qualified individual.

>> A qualified.

>> Qualified individual.

And Jerry, I will say I had the same gut feeling as you when it was announced that Kamala was going to be the next person nominated.

>> I felt fearful that that was going to be a loss.

>> I felt it was a loss.. As a black female, I was like, oh God, we just lost.

>> She.

Kamala Harris has said she's considering running again.

What do you think, legislator do you want?

>> I think she should.

>> Go through the primary process just like.. >> Just like everyone else.

Again, there's a lot of good people there.

>> So the panel says no anointing.

>> And I think that the people are going to save us, not the president.

So take care of your neighbor.

>> I agree.

>> Kelly Cheadle, thank you for being here.

Artist and organizer, legislator.

McCoy from district number 18.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> And Jaylen Sparks.

So we'll get you a full full hour next time.

Former congressional press secretary.

Thanks for being on, Jerry.

>> Yeah.

Thank you.

Happy Easter.

>> And to you as well.

And more Connections coming up in just a moment.

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