From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in February when a local barn was given a kind of death sentence.

The Clerk Road Barn in Penfield is one of those classic large barns that you might see in paintings or on country roads.

And it's the kind of barn that a number of other local towns have moved to preserve in recent years.

The town of Penfield seemed to conclude that their barn was past the point of saving, and they were seeking a contractor to demolish it.

In a recent report, News Eight's John Katko said that the town had little choice given the deterioration of the historic structure.

But a group of residents sees it differently.

Katie Andrus, for example, argues that the main issue has been neglect, and she wants the town to reconsider before the building is gone for good.

In just about every town in this country, there remain historic structures of some kind.

Maybe it's an old barn, a country store, but an factory.

The question is whether to preserve them and how.

What gets lost to history?

What is worth saving?

How do we connect our present with our past?

Let's explore those issues this hour with our guests.

And Katie Andrews is with us, producer of the documentary Still Standing The Barns of JT Wells and Sons that you might have seen in.

Hi.

Welcome.

Nice to see you in studio.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Larry Francis is with us, assistant director of the Landmarks Society of Western New York.

Thank you for being back with us.

Always a pleasure and welcome to Michael Jarvis, professor of history and archeology at the University of Rochester.

Happens to be a Penfield resident, Michael.

That's right.

Yeah.

That's right.

Well, thank you for making time to be on the program today.

And I want to say at the outset here, you know, you're going to hear from people feel very passionately about this issue.

I don't begrudge anyone who's working in local government hard choices.

it's often thankless work.

It's a lot of hours.

It's not a lot of pay.

And so whether you're in Penfield, whether you're in Perry, whether you're in Victor or wherever you are, I know these decisions are difficult.

We're not trying to pile on.

We're trying to understand the perspective of people who say, let's all, wherever we live, take a step back and ask us, ask ourselves, are we too quick to kind of dismiss our history, in these various forms?

And for Katie, why don't you tell people how how did you end up becoming the producer of a documentary about the barns of JT Wells and Sons?

it was never planned, I imagine.

Never planned.

I was engaged, and in 2015, we were looking for a venue, and I stumbled across this incredible barn, at the time called the Avon Century Barn.

And I looked at its website and just about died when I saw the beauty of the pictures, showing the barn.

And I contacted them and found out that they were about a year out for scheduling.

And I had waited my whole life for my husband, so I wasn't going to wait to have my, my reception there.

We found another lovely barn in Lavonia.

It was not a Wells barn, but lovely nonetheless, and my sister in law, arranged, unbeknownst to me, a fabulous opportunity her daughter had had.

The owner of the Avon Century Barn in first grade in Honeoye Falls, and she knew my interest in the barn.

So she arranged for a birthday present for me to shadow Sandy Howlett, the owner of the Avon Century Barn at the time, and I connected with Sandy, had a chat about possibly visiting her that summer and doing some shadowing, and I was getting ready for my wedding on my wedding day, having my hair done, and I had a ping on my phone and it was Sandy Hallett saying, I know you wanted to shadow me, but would you consider working for us?

My daughter is on bed rest.

She's expecting her first child and I said, I'm getting married today, but I can come over next week.

And, I went and visited.

And the moment I stepped inside my first Wells barn, my heart started pounding.

I was flabbergasted.

It was just unlike any experience I'd ever had.

I didn't grow up going in barns.

I didn't grow up with family that had them.

but something about the Avon Century Barn, which is now known as the Wells Estate, part of that estate now, it just stopped in my heart.

So I worked with Sandy that summer and went back, several successive summers after that.

But what really, stopped me in my tracks is that wedding guests would ask questions about the barn, and I couldn't answer them.

And that led me to research.

And as a researcher and a former librarian and an educator, I just hated not having the answers.

So that drove me to the town of Wheatland.

Historian that opened up the, research and exploration of the barns.

I found the book at the Scottsville Free Library that was written by a descendant, and that's where it all started.

And when did you come to realize that, when you mentioned Wells barn of roughly there's about 100, that they were kind of an endangered species and some of them were down.

Well, when I contacted Barbara Chapman, the Town of Wheatland historian, who is a wonderful piece of our documentary.

we didn't have a documentary at that time, but that was the ultimate goal.

She had had the same concern that, there was a barn at the time that was threatened for demolition.

It was good timing for me to kind of come into her sphere.

And together, she and I worked with photographer Dick Thomas to catalog and take photographs of the remaining barns in the area.

So we were grassroots.

We took photos.

We did in person presentations.

We went to the statewide conference.

We presented there.

you know, really that grassroots level was where we started.

We got to know the Wells barn owners one by one.

And, it just kind of grew from there.

And so there's different categories.

So the barn that we're going to be talking about today in Penfield, the Clark Road barn is not a Wells barn.

It's a timber frame barn.

Correct.

What's the difference?

timber frame barns have a different structure.

this barn in Penfield is an earlier barn.

my can speak better to the time kind of frame of when they think the barn was constructed, but in general, a timber frame barn uses mortise and tenon construction.

It has wooden timbers and joints.

A wells barn, in comparison, has Gothic trusses that are laminated, that are smaller pieces of wood affixed together to make a strong, timber, in essence.

So the Wells barns have a Gothic arch.

They have these trusses that were patented in 1889.

They create an open interior storage space for, loose hay to be stored.

And the wells barns increased efficiency by having, wagons roll right in to be loaded and unloaded, as opposed to the hay truck going outside the peak of the barn to load the wagons outside.

So a timber frame barn like the Clark Road barn would have had cross timbers across the middle.

very different structure.

And, you know, any agricultural activity that would have taken place in that would have been, kind of at a different level.

What's the the timeline, the age here on this one, Michael?

and the Clark Road barn.

What do we know about it?

we've been a little bit frustrated with, historic research just due to the paucity of state tax assessments.

We know the Clark House was built around 1831.

Alpheus Clark sold the farm to his son in 1854. and it's likely the barn went up in that second generation.

dating the barn could be done using dendrochronology.

samples taken from the timbers in the interior.

there are, mechanical saw marks on the, structural timbers, that have been noticed, and, less than a mile away, you will find Sawmill Road.

And so what is sort of an exciting prospect is that the barn itself may be made from timber growing on that land, milled and framed very locally and then kind of put up there on, on the property.

So I would say second, third quarter, 19th century.

Okay.

And, you know, you're so romantic about these barns, Katie.

but as you say, you didn't grow up with them.

I did not.

So explain that to people who are like, she's not like a farm girl.

And what happened here?

How did you become so romantic about these structures?

I think the disclaimer that I always give is that a, some people have loved Wells Barns for their entire lives.

I have been to three, memorial services for people who have passed away that have, you know, people have spoken about the barns at these memorial services.

I know of one couple that was featured in our documentary Where the Wells Barns trusts was used in their wedding vows, and it was in the rehearsal speech.

I'm not the only one that sees these romantically.

I just, I, I, I really think it was that first experience in, Sandy Hall.

It's Wells barn that did it for me.

I I'm married to a construction expert.

I think that also, comes into play.

One of his proudest moments was when he came back from a boys night, when we were first engaged, and I had the patent drawings out in front of me, and I was highlighting the different parts of the structure based on the description in the patent.

and he really encouraged that.

Right.

So he knows much more about Timbers and timber framing and laminated trusses than I do.

But he also, recognizes my interest and uses the language that I can understand to understand the underlying structures of these.

And I'm very, very lucky.

I do think the beauty is impressive, but it's also form and function.

Right.

And so when you when you know that, agricultural changes have been made, but that they're beautiful in addition to structurally safe and sound and sturdy, I just I'm really impressed by that.

Well, and so, Larry, friends here, this is where some people, will share Katie's admiration.

They'll see these as kind of wonders of our countryside, you know, just really architectural marvels.

Some will say, like, I don't get it.

It's a barn.

Like, it's what?

What is the what?

What do you say to the people who don't get it?

Well, they just don't get it.

You know, maybe there's something else that they do get.

I think the wonderful thing about historic preservation is how it hits you in your heart.

You have this connection to something.

Maybe it's a Wells barn.

Maybe it's the five and dime you grew up, on Main Street with.

Maybe it's the power's building.

Maybe it's a mansion on East Avenue.

But it it is an emotional connection to it, and I think I just can't imagine that there is anyone who does not have an emotional connection to something.

Maybe it's a landscape.

I mean, that's what historic preservation is all about.

And you say what should be, you know, what should be saved?

Well, everything that someone really cares about, almost everything can be saved.

A lot of times it's going to cost a small fortune, and we have to make decisions that maybe it's not worth it.

Maybe there are problems a barn should be deconstructed and then can be reconstructed rather than demolished.

There are, historic preservation is, to me, very emotional.

Yeah, I, I certainly understand that.

And, you know, maybe it's just because I've spent way too much time listening to podcasts recently about where our society's going.

I listen to Ross Douthat piece last week about predicting the next 2 to 3 years, not decades, not centuries, but we're I is taking us.

And then I think anything that we can do that ties ourselves to our very human past.

You look at a structure like that and I go, well, if I were tasked with building one of those things, you give me every book ever written and we'd be waiting a thousand years before something like that one.

it's an amazing thing to see.

but then the question becomes, well, to Larry, to your point about, well, is it too expensive?

Is it too far gone?

I know Katie didn't love, and appreciates the photography.

And John Kutch goes a romantic.

He's a Penfield resident.

He is he he's a great photographer.

but, you know, his conclusion was like, well, it's just you can't blame the town of Penfield.

This one's too far gone.

And you've felt like like.

No, we're not to that point.

Like it's not inevitable that this thing's just going to have to be demolished.

I think we all have very different experiences with the Clark Road barn.

And, for me, I've been trying to understand it and advocate for it for the past roughly two, two and a half years.

And I have, I would never position myself as a barn expert.

That's not my role.

I feel like I'm a barn resource.

And, I come to this naturally because I wasn't a barn person growing up in the past ten years working on the documentary and interacting with barn owners and finding out a lot of the word of mouth who does their roofing, who works on their foundations.

Some of these experts that work on these structures are not necessarily the folks who are going to respond to RFP or bids on a website, on a, you know, a town website.

They may not participate in some of the pay to play Builders Exchange kind of platforms where these RFPs are also shared.

And so, you know, I just I have, a much different, experience, I would say I've also had the opportunity and the wonderful chance to speak to some timber framers who are, you know, professional timber framers with years of experience on this kind of structure.

And, having spoken with one, a wonderful gentleman named John McNamara who is down in Pennsylvania, just not too far from Binghamton.

you know, he was so kind.

He took my phone call.

He answered my questions.

He went to the Town of Penfield website.

He reviewed all of the materials.

He looked at the conditions, assessment that had been done.

He looked at the Matterport video.

That kind of gave him the inside perspective.

And he said and his, you know, kind of his expertise is just reviewing the materials on the website that he believes the timber frame portion of the barn is potentially viable.

And I offered to the town of Penfield to bring John McNamara here at my own expense, to have that in-person visit.

He wasn't able to come in time for the, the Pre-Bid walkthrough.

But, on our conversation on the phone after he reviewed materials, he said, you know, Katie, I think the town is looking at this barn through the wrong glasses.

And by that, that I took that as and he explained it further, is saying that a lot of people who don't know these structures see them as a liability, but when in fact we should look at them as an asset.

And he furthermore went on to assign some numbers and some values to the structure, just as it stands right now in his opinion, and he feels that the timber frame structure is worth upwards of $180,000 or more in its current condition.

So, I mean, I think that would be refined if he were to be given a chance to visit or some of his timber framing professional associates to visit.

that we won't know unless that access is given.

If you take away the sheathing, if you take away the roofing, if you take away the rotten floors.

He's advocating for basic respect for the structure to clean it up, to see what is actually there, to evaluate what is actually there.

And he was very clear when we spoke.

He said, you know, Katie, towns and municipalities are paying to put up structures like this.

They are finding ways to finance structures like this.

And this town has this structure currently in place?

Yes.

There may be foundation issues.

Yes, there's rotten flooring.

All of that can be addressed.

But the value of the timber frames, the timbers themselves, the size of the timbers, the shape they could currently be in, that has value.

And I think you may not be a romantic like me.

You might not fall in love with the barn structure.

You might not drive past it or alter your route to drive past it like I do.

Like if I'm anywhere near Clark Road, I would like, take a little diversion.

Right?

That's me.

But if you think about the potential dollar value of those timber for events, I mean, like, what do you see there?

I have so many ideas, but it's not up to me.

It's up to the community.

Right?

I mean, I think it could be an, amazing event space.

I think, you know, I look to the town of Brighton and how they've transformed their barn into the home for the Winters Farmers market.

They have yoga classes.

They have all kinds of activities in that barn.

And it was previously not used.

And now it is.

And it's such a fixture in a community focus that I just have to ask why?

Why are some of the options that maybe possible for the Clark Road barn not being explored or considered?

Well, Michael, what's the what's the next step with your town?

in terms of a timeline here?

well, the town board will be meeting tonight, in a workshop session to discuss it.

and just to echo on, Katie's point, I would suggest that the difference between junk and a rare, valuable antique is recognition and valuing.

And what is so easy to see wouldn't dismiss about the Clark Barn is the shabby, neglected exterior and missing the incredibly unique frame structure within.

So it's like bad skin, but great bones, if you will, and the structure looks in the exterior really in rough shape and as an eyesore simply because the town has not spent a penny on maintaining it.

There's a town on it.

The town owns it.

acquired it in February 2018 when by overwhelming referendum, the people of Penfield, had the Chateau Pines golf course purchased.

So the Clark barn and the Clark house came with it.

but since then, there's been absolutely no maintenance done, not even basic, painting or even inspection.

And so, I guess in 2022, the roof started to go, and that has led to pretty much the irreparable hole damage that has been done on the inside.

just something as basic as fixing a hole in the roof that was letting water in.

was not done.

And so much damage has, followed right from that.

So it looks really, really dilapidated from the outside.

the sheathing and the roof really are not able to be salvaged, but it's that framing that eight by 10 or 10 by ten, as long as 40, 45ft long beams.

You just don't find that kind of wood any more.

And that's the incredible value.

That's the skeleton of this barn, which can be taken apart like an Ikea furniture.

Knock the wooden pegs out and, reassemble it on a pad elsewhere.

And, you have a absolutely beautiful potential community resource with historic integrity.

This is where, you know, Larry is experienced.

The landmarks idea is, I think, instructive in terms of the conversations you have.

Because let me read an email from Michael that relates to this question of kind of persuading people to see things differently.

Michael says the past isn't just who we were, it's still a part of who we are today, which is why we should preserve it.

I remember seeing some beautiful buildings being torn down in the 1960s and 70s, because people believed that old equaled worthless and useless.

Thank you to your guests for what they are doing.

So Michael's broader point is about seeing value in something that might just come off as old or dusty or dilapidated or not needed anymore.

I don't think people are malicious when they don't see it the way that perhaps you do or Katie does, or Michael does.

Right?

And people are busy again.

Town boards are busy.

but what is typically the process that you would want citizens or the landmark society or people who are kind of activating in this way to what's that process that actually convinces someone to maybe say, all right, we're going to stop the wrecking ball here, and we're going to think about a way to reuse this.

How do you do that?

Well, I think a lot of it is education.

You know, I think there can be, town meetings where things are brought up where, specialists are brought in.

I think one of the big problems, I don't want to necessarily call it a problem, but one of the concerns with, historic preservation is that not enough people are really educated, even when there is a preservation board, if there is a certified local government that has to have a preservation ordinance, in the smaller communities, even in some of the larger communities, people don't always know the right terminology.

I mean, these things are very important.

And, you know, I'll just repeat it one more time.

The difference between demolition and deconstruction is huge.

Well, so to that point, and I want to say to listeners, if you're watching on our YouTube channel, we've got pictures that we're sharing of the Clark Road barn.

So you can kind of see some of the structure here, the size of it.

And so you can kind of get a sense for what we're talking about.

I think people may be surprised to hear, Larry, that that you can Ikea this thing and you can take it apart and, and even construct it elsewhere.

Right.

But to the preservationist mentality, how do you describe the idea of putting this thing back together on a different site?

If people say, well, if if history is the point, you can't move it, why is it okay to move it?

Well, moving it is not always optimal, you know.

But if you have to, you have to I mean, adaptive reuse is probably the biggest change in preservation in the past, you know, 20 or 30 years.

I mean, we don't expect a barn to have animals in it anymore.

It's wonderful when they do.

But if they don't, they can, you know, they can be a wonderful party space.

They can be a community space, they can be a resource.

And there are so many examples, not only just around New York State, but obviously around the country.

And, you know, cultural tourism is one of the biggest industries around.

I mean, people really do want to get that good feeling about walking down a main street that has, you know, lost most of the buildings.

But if something is gone, you know, you have some infill.

You you make it work.

And I think if people understood the different types of uses, that's why it's so important when you're looking at a any building, you know, a barn, any building on factory.

Right.

It conditions report is like the first thing you need to do so that you know exactly.

Get a specialist in there, get a firm that has preservation experience in there.

Not just any engineer, not just any architect.

When you're talking with about an old barn, you bring people in who have experiences with old barns and preserving them.

So and you do a conditions report, but then you do a feasibility study.

That's what Katie was saying.

She doesn't know.

She has lots of great ideas.

But you bring the community and you find out what their ideas are.

You know, you just go down to I mean, you know very well Jennifer and, Sophie, Elkins.

it's the barn there.

it's called the.

What is it?

It's the north.

I think I have it down here somewhere.

Anyway.

I mean, that is a stunning barn, and, you know, it is.

So it you know, it.

They just dot the, landscape all around the country.

And, you know, we have lots of different people who are doing amazing things.

I'm not sure.

I imagine, you know, of Tom Johnson.

Oh, of course, I mean, Tom Johnson has done great things.

He, you know, worked with Ralph Lauren and now he's, you know, doing these barns.

I mean, there are wonderful things that can happen with barns right now.

And it's not just barns.

I mean, you know, I mean, I grew up in Fairport and the Fairport of today is very different from the Fairport.

I grew up in Norway.

you know, I went last night, I went to the, Parent and Historical Association, had a presentation by Laura DiCaprio.

She's one of my favorite writers for 5.5 magazine.

She and her husband, Mike were talking about, unexpected discoveries in the Dylan house that they own in Fairport.

And, I mean, it was a standing room only crowd.

The lower level was packed.

It was so packed they had to have streaming upstairs for people that came, which when I'm at an event and it's packed, you're just thrilled, right?

But.

And I left that presentation feeling so energized.

I drove around Fairport a little bit.

And, I mean, I have a very different experience of the cannery.

When I was young, it was a dilapidated building, and people used to throw rocks at the windows because it was boarded up.

It was scary.

It wasn't a thing.

Today I had a conversation with a travel nurse and she was saying specifically she was looking for a rental in the Fairport area, right?

Because of the nightlife that is now happening and the community life that is now happening at the cannery.

And, you know, which used to be on the other side of the tracks that nobody went to and, you know, so I, I'm, I'm very good about, trying to recognize things here locally that didn't used to be that way, that are different now, that people are enjoying and different in new and exciting ways.

And it's so energizing.

Yeah.

Fairport is its own story that we should probably talk about sometime soon.

And that's the worship.

There's there's a lot of cool stuff happening.

We're right next door to a button factory here, right?

I love the fact that not only you go in there and you see the the new uses, but they've got old pictures, they've got historic markers.

You can walk through High Falls here, and there's wonderful signage and historic markers here that, as someone who works down here and loves this area, I love that we stay connected in that way.

I, I understand the hard debates about what it cost and who pays for it, which is we'll talk a little bit about coming up here.

and producer Megan Mac.

Larry Francis says, where are you talking about?

Left bank.

So, Sophie's place in Geneva?

no, no, no, the North is it, it is called the North Farm.

Oh, the north farm.

That's where the barn is.

The left bank field trip.

Fabulous field trip.

but Sophie's, selling that one.

Oh, okay.

So there you go.

So, the North farm anyway, so is wherever you are.

That's why I said at the outset here.

This is a conversation about.

Yeah.

What's happening literally possibly today, this week soon in Penfield.

But it's every community.

Communities have to decide what you preserve and how you do that and what gets reused.

And why that might matter to you and and why people might not see it the same way.

So when we come back here, I do want to talk a little bit about the kind of conversations that make this a little bit more realistic.

So if you're working on a town government and I've got Katie Andrews calling me and I've got, you know, I've got Michael Jarvis calling me, saying like, you can't knock down this barn.

And I'm like, well, who's going to pay for it?

Well that's tough.

Those are not easy questions.

But, we're going to talk about the possibilities for places like that, whether it's in your community, if you live in Penfield, whether it's, the Clark Road barn that we've been talking about here.

So Katie Andrews is with us, producer of the documentary Still Standing The Barns of JT Wells and Sons.

Larry France, her assistant director of the Landmark Society of Western New York, Michael Jarvis, professor of history and archeology at the University of Rochester and a Penfield resident.

We're right back on connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Thursday and the next connections.

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One way is music, and we'll tell you about a program aiming to do just that.

You'll meet people behind it.

Talk with you Thursday on Connections.

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We we're going to talk right through that break right back here.

We're back to connections here.

All studios talking about these issues here.

And I hope listeners are too.

We're trying to be the public square for you.

And again, we don't come in with an agenda hosting this program.

I, I want to say, again, I empathize with local governments that have to make hard decisions.

And no one is saying this is easy, or you can just snap a finger and have this perfectly recreated old barn that now an event space.

You need money in different ways.

You may need taxpayer expenditures.

You may need private development.

You may need fundraising.

You might need I mean that's what five to revive often spurs every year when Larry and his colleagues come on the program to talk about the landmark societies five to revive, they are looking for combinations of strategies that can preserve places.

And that means grass roots, right?

I mean, that means basically every layer of the cake isn't right.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I would be remiss if I did not mention at this point how preservation is under attack by the federal government.

I mean, we really have to be concerned about the fact that the funding, the historic preservation Fund, which does fund our ship repos, which does fund a lot of grants, that go to the Landmarks Society, lots of organizations, lots, lots of not for profits.

We have to be concerned about the National Park Service and and cuts.

We have to be concerned about the tax credit, the federal tax credit program, because of staffing.

You know, if they're going to be cutting staffing.

So, you know, I want to say that and I've gotten that off my chest.

So, so now we can talk about the fact that, yes, grants, there are grants that local municipalities can get for these structures to help, rehabilitate them.

And I and as you said, grassroots.

I mean, if there there are local foundations, there are lots of ways to raise the money if people want to do it and if people are passionate about it.

I got a bunch of feedback I'm going to read in a second.

Let me just ask, the other guests here on that point, do you think the local government in Penfield is open to this so far from what you've seen, Michael, do you feel like they're entertaining ideas of of not just demolishing, but finding a different way for this site?

Yeah, I was a member of the Clark Road Barn Advisory Committee, over the last year and a half.

And, yeah, we had, wide ranging conversations about potential reuse in a variety of form, potential public private partnerships.

One thing that really, really stands out is right across the street at the Clark House site, where they're building a new modern lodge.

There's a Frisbee golf course that, you know, has tens of thousands of people pass through there, and a very large parking lot and moving, disassembling, and re erecting the Clark Barn, in a revitalized space would create this gorgeous interior that could be, Farm Market.

It could host local businesses.

You have all these frisbee golf players who would love to have a coffee or a beer, and make use of the Clark Bar and just slightly repositioned.

Michael, Greg emailed to ask what is going on with the Clark house.

So who owns the Clark house?

Is that the town as well?

The Clark House is also owned by the town.

The 1832 portion of the Clark House, it has been preserved.

And the rest of the much larger building that had been the Shadow Pines Clubhouse has been demolished, quite recently.

And they are building a new, lodge, in the, in that space.

But, the Clark house itself has been, preserved.

Okay.

And Katie Andrews, do you see an openness, in local officials to to hear people out before the the wrecking ball swing here.

I think one of the most challenging things about the situation with the Clark Road barn in Penfield is that, a use was never identified for it before moving forward.

And I think if you don't have a perspective use, it's very difficult to identify, like you said, grant funding, creative resources, thinking strategically about how to connect the use for that structure to funding opportunities and or pockets of money.

Right.

So the town of Penfield, I think, initially made the decision to, you know, put the fence around it and kind of contain it so that it wasn't a liability.

But as far as I can tell, I was not on the committee.

I was not a resident of Penfield.

I did apply to be on the committee was not allowed to, because any decisions of this committee, could have tax repercussions for people living in the area.

And that was one of the reasons I was given for not being allowed to participate, which I can respect.

But again, if you don't have a use identified, then you don't necessarily have a plan for moving forward.

And I think, not having that use identified has been really challenging for the town itself, for its own Clark O'Brien committee.

And, not sharing or opening up that discussion about how could this structure we used.

I think that excludes the community from having input and weighing in and creatively discussing, even maybe without any boundaries at all to begin with.

What do we want to see this structure become?

What do we think it could be?

And, you know, I do think that kids think more strategically than adults.

That's my background as an elementary teacher and a school librarian.

But I was very fortunate to do a project based learning experience with some students at Scribner in Penfield.

And I didn't give them the limitations that we as adults frequently put on this.

Like, you have to be within a certain dollar amount or it's going to take this many crews to make this happen.

The kids came up with incredible ideas.

They had production studios, they had historical museums.

They had a community garden with a retractable roof for turtles.

Right.

Like that's that was one of my favorites, right?

Like they're not bound by limitations.

However, I think it's okay to start that conversation with community members, including adults, to say, let's not think about dollar amounts at first.

Let's talk about what we see this as being, what can this be for our community, and then kind of go down from there.

so I would like to see a public input session.

We've only had one in Penfield, and that was almost two years ago.

That's where I saw Mike Jarvis speak the first time, and I was really excited by what he said.

And the energy in the room.

Right.

And that energy led the town at that time to create the Clark Coburn Committee and to move forward.

So I think that passion and energy is there in the community.

I'm just not sure it's been, had the chance to be expressed lately.

If I do start reading emails, we're gonna be here until 3:00.

Okay.

So here we go.

Okay.

and actually a couple of YouTube comments watching on YouTube.

Beth and Fairport on the YouTube chat says, excellent discussion.

A barn lover here, and I see them deteriorating all over with pangs of sadness.

I'm so glad to hear your energy and enthusiasm to save these beautiful treasures.

Thank you Beth, and can I throw in?

Yeah.

At this point, the, New York State historic, barn rehabilitation tax credit.

Everybody needs to know about that.

I think it's fairly easy to get.

It's 25% of the, qri.

The qualified rehabilitation expenses.

And, you know, you just have to be in New York State.

Taxpayer.

The barn, must have been, have been constructed prior to 1946. it has to have been used as an agricultural facility or for a relay to, purposes for qualified, rehabilitation expenses must exceed 5000.

I mean, there are a bunch of things.

And, you know, we could take it to this barn as well.

With a public private partnership, they may be able to use the, the tax credit and that you can find, you know, you can actually call the New York State Division of Historic Preservation, if you get on the website, you can find out all that information or contact me at the Landmarks Society.

It's a really good option for these barns.

All over the state.

Professor Jarvis, that makes sense for this one.

You think?

I guess the difficulty is the tax credits are for private individuals.

If it's a public service, it's what I was saying, a public partnership.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Well, Creative Solutions is what they're looking for here.

So, Well, my gosh, the phone is ringing.

here we go.

Jeff, says I walk and drive past it almost daily.

It really does have a ton of potential.

If it can be restored, it's in a perfect place.

The grounds around it also have a ton of potential.

I agree with that.

You're the Penfield resident here, Michael.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it sort of gives goosebumps when you're there thinking about the history that is surrounding you.

Calvin, Calvin Clark was the very first resident of all of Penfield before, and Alpheus Clark, arrived there as a 12 year old boy in 1800, grew up in the wilderness and built that house in 1832.

That's in watching Penfield get up almost 200 years ago, and Penfield was twice as large as Rochester in population up through 1820. and so if you think about Penfield and its historic roots and farms and mills, it really predates the city that, you know, came to dwarf it.

And so that sheer antiquity and the fact that the Clark family and that farm very close to the Four Corners center of Penfield, has remained as a large open landscape, is is really quite incredible and very much worth preserving.

Yeah.

Ingrid in Penfield on the phone next.

Hey, Ingrid.

Go ahead.

I hope you can hear me.

The phone is a little soft.

We got you on it.

Okay, great.

Thank you for this program.

That barn is stunningly beautiful.

So are the surrounding.

I have been mourning that barn.

I thought it was a done deal.

If there's anything that I can do, I will go door to door asking for donations that meet up.

All right, Ingrid, so it says.

And coach.

So thank you, Ingrid.

So maybe the broader question for, for people listening is if they want to get involved in efforts like this, what can they do in terms of the Clark Row barn, please, communicate with the town board members.

Mike has communicated with them.

I have communicated with them.

The Landmarks Society has communicated with them.

It will take Penfield residents just like they're tired of hearing from you.

They're probably tired.

I'm not going to stop, though.

I have a seven year old that keeps saying, mom, what are you going to do to save this barn?

And I said, I'm going to do whatever I can.

you know, but listening to Mike talk about the position of this barn on the landscape where it is, I have taken my son, we have walked the paths.

It is magical.

There are butterflies, there are pollinators.

I mean, it's it is literally it's just it's a bounty of nature behind that.

The neat, the paths, the, just the beauty and then, you know, the space that it's on and in proximity to the rest of Penfield.

It really is an iconic landmark.

My kids at school drove past it on the bus.

They you would wave to it on the way.

you know, it really, they may not even realize how much it has impacted them until it is gone.

And I think kids definitely are the right audience to start talking to about preservation and adaptive reuse.

They are impressionable.

They are excited.

They are eager.

They're not bound by our restrictions as adults.

And I do think, I mean, there's some things coming out for kids, but there is definitely a niche where we can explore that with children's books, with activities, connecting kids to the Landmark Society in new and exciting ways and, just really getting younger people involved.

Preservation isn't just for old people, right?

And there's so much excitement, I think.

And yesterday even you were talking about you know, YouTubers and meeting people, people on the platform that they're on.

Yeah.

And I have I was, you know, kind of cheering out loud as I was listening.

And, and I'm a huge fan of you know, cheap old houses and, and with the old and programs like that that take a different look at preservation and adaptive reuse, and it's fun and it's exciting and it's accessible and I think that's the message we need to start sending more.

Absolutely.

So to England, call your town board member.

And I just want to say everyone who's listening from Penfield, call your town board member today.

They're having this discussion tonight at 630.

So call them today and let them know that's what it takes.

It takes that advocacy.

They need to know that the residents care and are, you know, voting for, you know, save it, save it, save it.

And, you know, they can they can go to the local press.

They can go to the TV stations.

I think we have to get the word out there that it is not a done deal.

It is not gone.

It is not down already.

Michael.

Brief response to Ingrid there to that barn has been around for 150 plus years.

and we owe it to that barn to keep it going.

Keep it alive.

Okay.

Ingrid.

Thank you.

Fred.

And Brighton is next.

Hey, Fred.

Go ahead.

Are you there?

Fred?

User error here.

I'm putting Fred back on hold.

We'll figure it out back there.

This is Frank and Grace.

Let's try.

Hey, Frank, are you there?

Is there something going on with the phones?

All right, I'm going to put Frank on hold as well.

We'll get Frank and Fred in a second.

And I've got a pile of your emails I want to read here.

So thank you for being.

Thank you for being patient.

Charlie says save them, Evan.

I will always fall on the side of saving old buildings.

I'll give you two examples where I believe people would change their minds if they could.

The villages of Fairport and Newark lost most of their 19th century downtowns to the ill fated urban renewal fad of the 1970s, either through benign neglect or vision.

Pittsford avoided that sorry fate and people still admire.

It's pretty village, by the way, the timber framed barn across the road from my house was destroyed in a controlled burn by the fire department to clear the way for four houses, it was difficult to watch.

The timbers were at least ten by ten, and the floors were eight inches thick.

The owner refused to have it taken apart by an offer from a person interested.

He was worried about the liability to save these barns from Charlie.

All right, Charlie, thank you very much.

let's try Fred again.

And Brighton there.

Fred, I am here.

Can you hear me?

Yep.

Go ahead.

Okay.

I'm going to turn my radio up because I think there's a delay.

Yeah, that is the way.

Very good.

Okay.

can you hear me now?

Yep.

I can hear you.

Okay.

Why is this my radio?

Not sure.

well, anyway, I'll try to ignore the delay.

what I was calling about was, a concern for whether or not, there is, an effort to contact private owners of businesses that are, you know, of these structures, you know, that have historical value.

And what I'm specifically referring to was a few years ago, you had on the side of to revive a hotel on North Prince Road, and I had the opportunity to be inside that once.

And it was an absolutely fabulous place with the woodwork and everything.

But it was only a matter of weeks after that broadcast that the building was demolished.

and I just hope that when people are interviewing to, you know.

Move forward to preservation efforts, that if it's a privately owned structure that they're approaching people, with, a current, so to speak, and that's, that's that's really all I have to say.

I mean, I'm all in favor of historic preservation.

I've been a history buff all my life, and, it just I have the feeling that somehow or another, the, the owners of that structure felt that they were being pressed into a situation where they were going to have to spend money to restore it.

So that's really all I have to say.

And, thanks for the program.

This is a great topic.

Thank you.

Fred, I appreciate that phone call.

Larry, you want to say something about that?

Yeah.

I mean, we more or less knew that the hotel to me was going to be demolished.

We wanted to put it on to make a statement.

they had, you know, a an offer to put something else in its place.

I mean, you can't always save everything, but I think it's important to make the statements of how important these buildings are.

So not.

We we try not to get in that position with most of our five to revives.

And we do always contact the, the businesses, especially if it's private.

so that's where we were at.

Okay.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

But thank you very much for the phone call.

a ton of emails here.

Andrew says there are certain structures, one example being the Keene Valley Barn in the Adirondacks that, though redundant, inform, epitomize the landscape.

There loss is literally a hole in the landscape, a loss of the character of an area.

These are the structures we should be saving before their loss detrimentally affects the identity of the surrounding area.

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the point that our guests have been making.

There you have it.

A lot of they see put they see the character that Andrew sees.

Matthew wants to know.

Has anyone considered contacting Genesee Country Village and Museum as a resource to restore and relocate this?

I don't know if that's a possibility that seem like a fit.

I do know in the past we've tried to have some discussions about possibly having a Wells barn moved there.

but I think the, that discussion kind of ended in that there were not the resources to be able to do that, so I can't speak.

Becky Whaley could speak better to that.

especially with it.

What she would know currently what they are capable of.

and so maybe that's something to consider, but, yeah, absolutely.

And I would say that as a Penfield resident, I would really just want the Penfield, the clock barn, to stay in Penfield, ideally on the very farm on the landscape where it belongs.

follow up from Andy says one of the best examples I know of adaptive reuse is an old house at the southwest corner of Latta and Long Pond, roads and grease being moved to make way for a Wegmans Plaza.

That house is now home to the Grease Historical Society.

Down the street.

Interesting.

There.

Jill says thank you for the history lesson on the Clark Barn.

The community is quite passionate about these historic buildings and the incredible landscape they sit on.

I'm currently volunteering with Color Penfield Green in collaboration with the town of Penfield, to enhance the native habitat at Chateau Pines.

We will be starting work parties this summer and will be looking for volunteers, and we would love to see more people out there.

That's Jill.

Joe.

Jill, thank you for that, Mindy says regarding the barn as a resident of Penfield, we would very much like to see it remain.

It is a tangible example of the town's agricultural history and is linked to the 1832 Clark House, which is a designated Penfield Historic Landmark.

and she says the entire Chateau Pines property, especially these structures, is iconic to Penfield when few vintage icons now remain.

Once these structures are gone, they are gone forever.

I believe that it is a community's duty to be engaged, stewards of its tangible heritage, and a place that doesn't care about its past.

Enough to act as a sad place indeed.

Thank you for hosting this discussion.

Oh boy.

On and on we go.

I could do this all day, everybody, Kate says.

I wish there was as much, enthusiasm for the preservation of, the people that require preservation of our community.

And she's saying, you know, look, this is a great effort.

We've got to be supporting people in communities.

I understand that point, too.

I get it.

and, Kate, I'm I don't think anybody at the table is saying don't care about people.

I think it's trying to be a both and.

Right.

No, I'm not going to run any PR for the people at the table.

but finally, let me get John who says thank you, Katie and Larry and Michael for your hard work and dedication to this project.

As stated, the bones are good and you cannot find this type of building anymore.

As someone who lives in Penfield, I could not agree more about the potential and the asset this property is for our community.

I agree that if we lose this iconic landmark, we lose something more than a structure.

We lose part of our community history.

The ideas for proposed use are wonderful to hear.

Keep up the great work that is from John.

Okay, I didn't even get through it all.

Couldn't even get through all your phone calls.

You have struck a chord.

This is where Larry frantic.

Go see, I told you, you care about preservation.

That's right, that's right in your heart there.

That's why there is a landmark.

Absolutely.

So, yeah.

if you want to get involved more, Michael, why don't you leave listeners where we want them to, to leave the conversation with here?

I think time is of the essence.

And please talk to the five, members of the Penfield Town board.

this afternoon, prior to their meeting, and, yes, let's just do all we can.

There's let us be the voices for those historic structures.

15 seconds, Katie Andrus.

I mean, I, I just I know the Genesee Orleans Regional Arts Council just got major funding to put up the Go Barn, which is Wells inspired.

Communities are building these structures.

Let's see if Penfield can maintain the one that it has and re-envision how it can be used.

Keep us updated, Larry.

French or where do people learn more about the Landmarks Society?

landmarks of the Landmarks society.org and at Landmarks Society on socials, socials, Facebook on our website.

Call me.

You can find my number there.

If there's a building that you care about that looks like it's in trouble, let us know we're picking another five to revive.

Yes.

Thank you all for being here.

Appreciate all of you.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for watching.

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