>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

>> Our connection this hour was made at a downtown department store where a young boy was desperate to tell Santa what he really wanted for Christmas.

The scene was chaos.

It was packed with families and crying children and people just trying to finish their Christmas shopping.

And when the boy finally saw Santa, he blurted it out.

He wanted a Red Ryder BB gun and Santa replied, you'll shoot your eye out, kid.

It was devastating.

You should recognize the scene from the classic movie A Christmas Story, where young Ralphie is desperate for his prized Red Ryder.

What I recently learned is that much of the film, while much of the film was shot in my native Cleveland, Ohio, Ralphie's America was based on a real city called Hammond, Indiana, and Hammond was, like many American communities.

It boomed with industry, with diverse neighborhoods, a vibrant downtown core filled with commerce and, yes, department stores in downtown malls and people out doing their daily business.

And this is where Hammond is a lot like Rochester.

From Hammond's peak population of 111,000, it's down 30 to 35%.

It's in the mid 70s.

Now.

Much of the industry is gone.

The downtown core was as dead as Jacob Marley just a few years ago, and everyone wondered what they could do to revive it.

The lessons can be found in a new film called Walkable USA, and you can see that film tomorrow night at the Little Theater.

This hour we examine some of those lessons.

What were the biggest mistakes of American design that maybe separated purposes and people and prevented community?

What can can they be fixed at all?

What can we do?

What are the four factors that make a street or a neighborhood walkable?

Why do people who live in the suburbs both love and hate their living situation?

That's what they say.

In surveys.

We're going to talk about all of that and what it means with our guests this hour from Reconnect Rochester.

Lourdes Sharp is project manager.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you so much for having me.

>> Next to Lourdes is Erick Frisch, deputy commissioner of the Department of Neighborhood and Business Development for the City of Rochester.

Welcome.

Good to see you across the table.

Galin Brooks, president and CEO of Rochester Downtown Development Corporation.

Welcome.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

And Mike Gilbert is founder and executive director of Downtown ROCs.

Hi there.

Hi, Evan.

And tell us what Downtown ROCs is, by the way.

>> Oh, well, I think in simplest terms, we're a placemaking nonprofit.

We focus on helping keep downtown clean, beautiful and activated.

>> So, I mean, I'm not so naive to think that the only measure of if Rochester is back is if we've got, you know, siblings in the downtown like it used to be in the 60s and a Santa going, , and Ralphie is there.

And we're not probably going to have all of that back.

The film is pretty interesting in that some of the principals even talk about the fact that they used to think you could stop sprawl, and probably you can't, but there are certain things you can do to revive downtowns.

So, Mike, I'll start with you.

Go around the table.

How are we doing with our downtown right now?

>> Oh, that is certainly a loaded question.

I think we're doing great from a from a directional perspective.

If you if you look at all the trends, everything that's been happening ever since it, including the inner loop infill, that portion and the activations at parcel five and so on, I think everything's moving in a good direction.

Residential density going up.

but there's no denying there's a lot of challenges.

And when you talk about a topic like walkability, that that really is one of the challenges I think we're facing.

>> I can't wait to talk more about that, because it's not just this nebulous concept.

Jeff Beck, who is kind of the godfather of, I was going to say New Urbanism, but the film tells me that that's left coded.

So it's, I don't know, just walkable America.

Walkable USA we're going to talk about that coming up here.

Galin Brooks how are we doing in downtown?

>> We have a lot of really great momentum in downtown.

I think what Mike shared is absolutely accurate, but I want to highlight some of the positives and some of the energy that is really present in our downtown today.

We all know pretty well by now the story of residential in downtown Rochester.

We have close to 11,000 people living in the very heart of our city, and that is something that we are ahead of the curve on.

So that's something to be really proud of, right?

That came up in Walkable USA as well when they talked about Hammond and what was needed to make a walkable place, they talked specifically about housing, and we already have a lot of that.

We have about 1800 units.

We have about 10,800 people.

We have 267 units that just so residential residential units that just opened this year, and we have a lot more in the pipeline.

So that kind of work, live, play downtown that so many places are striving for is already in process and is quite present in downtown Rochester today.

So that's something that I like to share our numbers.

We track them pretty closely in terms of activity, are up.

They have been up since the pandemic and we're close to pre-pandemic levels.

For the average of people in downtown Rochester on a weekday, as of Q2 in 2025, that was about 56,000 people on average on a weekday in downtown and on a weekend, we're above pre-pandemic levels, so that momentum is there.

We have room for improvement, certainly in terms of the volume of activity, and we have room for improvement in terms of built space and what that looks and feels like.

But there's a lot of incredible momentum, and there are a lot of pockets of success as well.

>> The film is really good, and there's the section of the film where Jeff is talking about the mistakes that you might make in downtowns across the country where you say, well, what we need is more people, so we'll build housing, but then you, you don't add what people would need around that.

Or you say, we need to activate this corridor, we're going to create this beautiful little business district, but there's not enough housing.

And what I think Galen is telling us is that we're starting or we're not.

No one is starting today, but we're at least at a point now where we're not or we're not totally devoid of any one of those components.

Because when you looked at Hammond in the film, it was like, nobody's living downtown.

It's tough.

It was hollowed out, he said.

It was the most dead downtown that he's had to approach.

And so we're kind of in better shape than that.

>> We're in much better shape than that, which is great.

>> I mean, it's not like, hey, Galen, we're not dead, but we're actually doing pretty well vis a vis a lot of cities that size in those departments.

Fair?

>> Yes.

>> Fair.

Okay, so we'll talk more about that coming up here on what you do with that.

The film that we're talking about is showing when tomorrow night Lotus.

>> Yes.

We're going to be welcoming people at 630 at the Little Theater on East Ave, please.

you know, you can come and show up at the door.

We'll let you in.

But I do encourage everyone to pre-register.

You know, we're really happy to see so many people registering for this event.

So we want you to be able to reserve your seat ahead of time.

You can go to WW Reconnect Rochester.

And right on our first page there you should be able to see information about the film tomorrow and register there.

So we would love to have everyone listening.

Come if you can.

>> The film's only about an hour.

Yes.

And the reason?

And again, I'm not doing PR for anybody here.

I'm just saying it's a really good film because it's it's tight.

It tells a really interesting story.

It's got some Rochester links in there.

It's got a great Jim McIntosh quote in there.

I have to say I don't know if Eric agrees.

It's a great quote.

That's a great quote.

Yeah.

and so it's got all of these ties to Rochester, but it's a different city, of course.

And yet there are so many lessons that we can connect here and really like in an hour.

There are concepts that are not just nebulous and ideas, but they're very, very specific.

I feel like it's almost like a roadmap that cities can take with them.

What do you think?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I think one thing that we really do with at reconnect when it comes to our approach to, you know, especially our, our traffic safety focuses our transportation advocacy.

Rather, we really focus on frameworks that work instead of a one size fits all model.

So, you know, whether we're talking about different communities within Rochester different parts of downtown, we want to be able to have a framework that we can, for the most part, make it work in almost any situation, but be able to tailor it to the specific community at hand.

So I think that is one thing that we try to do.

And I do think that Walkable USA does give a really good framework for us to be able to launch, use that as a launchpad for our own Rochester downtown specific discussion.

And so the panelists afterwards are definitely going to dive a little bit deeper into what this looks like in Rochester and specifically specifically, we'll have Galin Brooks there, of course, as well as our very own Shawn Dunwoody.

and the owner of Ugly Duck Cafe.

So they'll be our panelists to talk a little bit more about the Rochester specifics.

>> One other thing in the film that kind of surprised me.

Jeff is now a guy who has worked in a lot of different cities.

The Oklahoma City revival is sort of detailed, detailed there.

Obviously, he's working in Hammond.

He's been in Rochester, he's been in a lot of these different communities.

And one of the goals he has is making sure that things don't become too divisive or political.

Everything gets politically divided.

And so over time, he said, it's like if you talk about reviving America, it's kind of right coded.

And if you talk about New Urbanism, it's left coded.

So he talks just about walkable America, which is like that's not really coded at all.

It's just what people want.

Everything gets politicized.

I didn't even think we were coding.

You're looking at me like, Lord, this is like, Evan, come on.

Of course, of course there's left and right coding.

What surprised me?

Did that surprise you?

Probably didn't surprise.

>> Well, honestly, I was.

I've been on reconnect for about a year and a half, to be quite frank with you.

And so I've learned a lot in that time.

I don't come from a transportation background, although that is our focus, and I've learned a lot in this past year and a half.

And I will say, you know, those are things that we are very intentional about as well.

We do know that a lot of things often get politicized.

but we are not at all in a political organization, although we do touch on local policy and things of that nature.

so, yeah, no, you're exactly right in terms of that terminology, that was something that we as a team had discussed when we were thinking of, you know, what's going to be our street films for this year, what's going to be the topic?

and we love that terminology of Walkable USA because we do have different people who buy into our work.

And so even, you know, some folks in the suburbs, we've got different demographics.

And as it pertains to downtown Rochester, you know, we want to be able to have an influx of people coming from anywhere in Rochester to be able to, you know, really live the experience, the benefits and the joys and and the amenities that we have in downtown Rochester.

So we are cognizant of that language and really do try to assert that we are here for the people.

It doesn't matter what political side you are.

>> Film is great.

Tomorrow night, little theater only an hour long.

Really, really great.

Erick Frisch.

Have you met Jeff Speck?

>> I did not meet him when he was here, but I, I was.

>> I don't remember.

It was like in the last decade he was here.

I think.

>> It was 2014.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

Which was around the time when we were beginning the Inner Loop East project.

I believe he spoke a bit about that.

>> So the quote from former city engineer Jim McIntosh in the film is that I think if I'm remembering he's talking about the inner loop and he's talking about what these divided highways ended up doing, he said, you build an evacuation route essentially out of downtown, and it worked.

People evacuated to the suburbs like.

>> Whoa, sums it up pretty clearly there.

>> I've talked to him before.

He was never that blunt with me.

That's a great quote.

so that's tough.

But how do you view sort of the state of the efforts to revitalize downtown?

>> I think I think my fellow panelists here have done a good job of capturing it.

Right.

I think we're in a really good position.

we're not Hammond.

Right.

We are in a better position.

we are still the civic, cultural, economic heart of a very large region.

and people are drawn to our downtown as a result of that in a way that Hammond can't, can't, can't claim.

I'd also say we're we're really resilient in this community.

Right?

And certainly downtown downtown's been through a period of urban renewal projects in mid 20th century that tore up so much of that character of what was historic Rochester.

We survived the collapse of of urban retail downtown and the changes that came from that.

And now more recently, we're we've survived the pandemic and the changes that resulted from changes to how people work.

Right.

>> And expectations for remote work and things like that.

>> Exactly.

And so we're coming out of that as well.

And so, as Galen pointed out, activity levels on the weekends are higher now than they were pre-pandemic.

And what that means is people are living here and people are coming here for recreation, for leisure, and to have a good time.

If you were to look 20 years ago as an example, you might have seen that flipped right where it was much busier during the day.

It was the it was a large office park that people didn't really come to outside of, you know, the theater or, or the arena.

and now it's we've got to build our, our, our daytime population back.

We need to bring back the workers.

Right.

There is a movement to come back to work.

We want to see that.

We want to be a part of that, to encourage that, because we need a 24/7 active downtown environment.

>> There's a part of the film where they they talk about how people who live in the suburbs tend to feel.

And again, I'm going to describe in general here, there's going to be people who say, well, that's not how I feel, like, okay, I get it.

But like a lot of people who live in American suburbs will say that they love their lot.

They like their house.

They're comfortable in their space, so they're happy with that.

But if you ask them, if you get outside of your house and you start walking, how would you describe it?

And often the words people talk about are stressful, you know, I mean, it's it's not really functional nonessential.

So you got to drive to where you are.

You like where you are on your lot, but you're not getting out and doing a whole lot of mobile on foot as an experience.

And we chose that.

That's a design.

The film even talks about post-World War Two, some of the choices that were made that were we had this planning boom where it was like single use.

So like we're either residential and it's only residential or it's commerce.

And this is our section of commerce, and it's really hard to be multimodal.

That history was interesting to me because when you and Galen, a lot of your colleagues are doing work, we hear about mixed use all the time, and we and again, that's that's not a buzzword.

That's a functional phrase to describe how people live.

So do you like do you find yourself wondering, why did we design this country this way?

Do you feel like that was one of the mistakes that was made, especially post-World War two?

>> Oh, I imagine all of us around the table here would say absolutely.

We've had moments where we've slapped our head and said, how?

How could this have possibly happened?

>> And I'm not trying to bash the suburbs, by the way, I like if anybody who's listening is like, I live in a suburb like I, I have lived in suburbs, I'm not trying to bash suburbs.

I'm just.

>> And there's, there is a place for for suburban living.

Right.

It's all about choice, right?

People should have options.

Right.

And we need to be able to have the option of a of a of a thriving, walkable urban environment here in the city and hopefully in some of the suburban areas.

as well.

And you know, when I slap my head and say, what were they thinking?

It's not just building suburbs.

That's, you know, that's logical.

that's been the progression over time, but it's also what we not necessarily us in this room, but did to our own downtowns and what we did to tear apart cities to make way for the automobile in the name of progress that actually made and hastened the decline of American downtowns.

>> Yeah.

I mean, it was Ford was advertising that, like, you can go live in the suburbs now, we've got cars for you, and you don't have to leave your house unless you want to.

And then you can drive somewhere to shop, and then you go right back home.

And that was viewed as this amazing revolution of of choice and option in the 1940s.

And so I obviously cars existed before the 40s, but I'm talking post really at the end of World War II, the film talks about that mindset change and the design change and the intentionality change.

So again, this is not denigrating the suburbs.

We've talked to Julie Dahmer.

It's out in Fairport.

We've talked to people from inadequate where they're really trying to create sections of walkability in their towns.

And that's awesome.

That's awesome.

But clearly Americans, when they're surveyed, Mike, they want this.

They want more connection, right?

>> They do.

I mean, look where Americans go to vacation.

They spend thousands of dollars to go to cities where you can walk, where you don't need a vehicle.

And that is it's ironic, but it's because of the way that our country has been built.

And there's reasons for it.

There's reasons for the suburbs and so on.

but people want to walk.

People want to have experiences.

You know, going back to Jeff Speck, this is this is a big thing for me when I think about downtown is that, you know, he had this unified theory of walkability, a walk needed to be useful.

It needed to be safe.

It needed to be comfortable, and it needed to be interesting.

>> You got to do that again.

I'm sorry.

This is like the most important thing.

I love this.

It's four factors that truly make something walkable.

And Jeff says you got to have all four, right?

Can't have three.

Can't have two.

Right.

So whether it's a street, a neighborhood, what makes it walkable.

>> Useful, safe, comfortable and interesting.

And in the suburbs you get safe and comfortable.

And that's okay, for what it's worth.

But you don't get useful and you don't get interesting.

Yeah, having lived in the suburbs, I would say the biggest hang up of walking is it's just boring.

There's no sights, there's no place to go.

There's there's no function to it.

It's walking for walking sake.

What a downtown gives you is the opportunity.

And that's what I think downtown Rochester has, is the opportunity to hit all four of those in a in a way that's very unique, that you can't get really anywhere else.

>> And, you know, I used to think like, why do we why do we use the phrase downtown?

Like I've heard people say, like downtown Fairport.

Like I'm like.

And as, as I think about it, the reason is because whether people are connecting the factors Mike just talked about or not, downtown feels like a place where you can safely get out and get a lot done and, and enjoy yourself.

And and it is a place where that concept, even if it's not explained in your brain, exists.

So yeah, there's a downtown Fairport and there's a downtown Rochester.

Communities that have sections that fit what Mike just talked about.

We clearly want it.

>> Walking is freedom.

You know, you talk about left coded, right coded, everybody loves freedom.

And that's what walking represents.

If you have the ability to safely and comfortably have an interesting walk across, a certain stretch could be four blocks in a village.

It could be a mile long on a main street.

But that's what people yearn for.

They want to see interesting things turn their head you know, go into shops, have variety and that shortens that distance because of the interest.

When you have surface parking lots or you have cold, empty storefronts, that doesn't foster that feeling.

>> I used to think everybody wanted freedom, but that's a conversation for a whole other show.

We're going to set that aside.

I think it's most people think, thank goodness.

in downtown Rochester or even anywhere that you can picture in our region, what's got all four?

Tell me a spot that you go, oh, that's walkable right there.

Bang.

>> I think Park Ave certainly fits that good stretches of East Ave, good stretches of University villages.

Fairport.

Brockport.

You know, it's not it's not limited to a center city, but.

Yeah.

>> Have all four there.

What about you, Galen?

What comes to mind?

>> Oh, certainly.

Park Ave I actually live not too far from it, so it is a common destination for me and my family when we're out on walks.

one of the things I wanted to pick up on there, though, was it comes up a little bit in the film, and it definitely comes up in Jeff's specs.

talks.

He's done a number of Ted talks and other presentations is the unifying nature of the needs of society that downtown can really meet.

And bring to bear, whether it's sustainability or affordability or access to opportunity.

The concentration of activity, the density, the centrality of employment, of culture, of our transportation of network, all those things as the key attributes of a downtown, really have a unique ability to meet a lot of the big challenges of of society today.

So I think that's, for me, one of the most compelling pieces.

When I think about the opportunity of downtowns.

>> And again, I don't mean to pull politics in.

I just want to observe something that popped onto my feed last week in a few places.

Elon Musk said last week that we're within the next 20 years, no one is going to need to work anymore.

Now, that's an extreme view of A.I.

That's this idea.

But what blows me away is this idea that we would even want that in society, that no one what I want is people to have fulfilling and sustainable work for themselves that they appreciate and, and that that can help them support their families and not feel stretched or overburdened.

But I don't think people want to get up and not work.

And I think that probably the work of planning cities assumes that that's wrong, that we're not building a society, that we're literally a two decades away from no one working.

So in that sense, you know, we're not getting get Kodak back.

We're not going to have a big three.

But what does a downtown look like that does have an employment base enough that it can support that sort of that that multi-use.

It's not just residential.

It's not just commerce.

But what does employment look like?

>> I think it's diversity all day long.

You know, we have incredible diversity here in innovation.

Rochester has been in the top five for the number of patents for a very, very long time.

Eric can probably tell us the exact number of years, but there's a lot of innovation from a lot of different companies here.

And that diversity of activity is really key to our success as an economy.

and it's, it's what is desired in so many places.

You don't want to have all your eggs in one basket, right?

You want to have a variety of functions and activities and outlets for productivity.

And that's something that we do see here in the Rochester economy.

But I think that that growing is really important.

>> Having a big three was helpful, but it was always a risk that if that went away, what would happen?

So, you know, here we are.

And what to you, Galen, was the the lesson of constellation's decision to to move downtown.

>> Oh, it's it's a feather in our cap for downtown Rochester.

You know, one of the things that they shared directly from, from their vantage point was that they chose that location as a recruitment tool.

So that is such a clear indication of what is important and desirable from companies in terms of how they attract talent.

Right?

That downtown spot, that historic setting.

They rehabbed seven buildings and it is exquisite.

That's really important to attracting talent.

And so I think it's a shining example of what is what is possible here in downtown Rochester.

>> And of course, the city had something to do with that.

and, you know, as you look again, Eric is not speaking for the whole I mean, he's part of an administration and there's a lot of people making a lot of decisions on how to try to leverage state dollars and how to try to, you know, use local resources.

but do you look at decisions like that as an indication of some of the vision that is being, I would say, validated?

>> Absolutely.

I look at the growth in population.

I look at landing a company like constellation, and I look at the the growth in the number of small businesses that are beginning to open up and the interest in opening up more as science that that we are that the vision is coming to reality.

If you look at the major projects that the city has advanced over my career with the city, which dates back nearly two decades a lot of that has been reversing those bad decisions that we talked about before, right?

Whether it was, you know, rethinking Midtown Plaza, doing the Inner Loop project, rethinking our city streets, all these things are all get back to kind of what what Mike was saying about about what Jeff specs four key principles are, which is to just make downtown a, a a great place to be.

Right?

And everything else will fall into place beyond that.

Now, constellation is the marquee, and we thank them.

And it's great that they're here.

but if you look at at our other properties downtown, you're seeing you're seeing the office space is competitive, that we are seeing workers returning and interest in it.

If you look at the Sibley Building, when has nearly leased that place up?

Now and that that wouldn't nobody thought that that was going to be possible 20 years ago.

>> So I'm not even sure ten years ago.

>> Right.

And so, you know, there's a lot of positive momentum taking place.

We need to be able to continue to ride that and provide the things that make that possible.

>> The reason I brought up constellation is, you know to the extent that anyone wants to be critical of the allocation of tax dollars or incentives, that's fine.

People can debate that.

But constellation is not doing that as an act of charity.

They're not doing that as an act of charity to the city.

And they're not just doing it because they got a good deal.

They're doing it because they think it's sustainable.

You would never do that otherwise.

And they believe that something is happening.

So in our second half hour, I want to talk about what our guests think are the biggest impediments to overcome, to become, you know, maybe even a more walkable downtown, a more multimodal and a thriving place.

The only issue I have with walkable is sometimes it it reduces things to just, well, it's nice to take a walk as opposed to we're talking about an entire vision for how people live and how towns and communities thrive.

So I'll take a phone call from Tom on the other side of this break.

I've got some emails to share.

And listeners, if you want to see the film that we're talking about this hour that kind of sparked this conversation.

It's tomorrow night at the little Doors open at 630.

Lourdes Sharp told me the film's only about an hour long called Walkable USA, and it is all about Hammond, Indiana, but it's also about Rochester.

It's also about Oklahoma City.

It's about communities that have had a lot of struggle as their big threes have left, and trying to reimagine how to pull people in community back together.

So we'll come right back and continue the conversation next on Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, Tuesday on the next Connections.

Predictive A.I.

is becoming more advanced and big companies are already using it daily.

UPS uses predictive A.I.

to map out the most efficient routes for drivers.

What does it mean for you and your life?

We'll talk about that then.

In our second hour, we're talking to a guest from Penn, America's Writers at Risk program, talking about how writers journalists are at risk around the world.

Talk with you Tuesday.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, so let me grab a call from Tom in Rochester.

Hey, Tom, go ahead.

>> Yeah.

Can you hear me?

Okay, I'm driving in the car, hands free.

>> please be careful.

Thank you.

Tom.

Go ahead.

>> Okay.

Yeah.

I'm a driver, education teacher.

I live in the 19th ward, and I love your work.

I think what you guys are doing is fantastic.

I'm a big pedestrian safety person, and I think your work has inspired me in this.

And I have a couple questions for you.

One is do you think that because I live in the 19th ward and I've traveled throughout the city, do you think there's any difference in the walkability or pedestrian safety emphasis, whether you're dealing with a predominantly white neighborhood or predominantly black neighborhood in the city of Rochester?

And I think about that young boy who was struck on Thurston Road back about three years ago.

And then I have a second question for you.

>> I hang there with that one here.

Anyone want to hit that first here?

Erick Frisch.

>> Well, I, I would just I would just say that from, from my perspective, you know, I have a transportation planning background as the city's transportation planner for many years before entering my my current role and I would say, you know, know that we, we deliver projects citywide and we follow the same methodologies and design guidelines citywide.

now every community is different and every community is going to want things that might be a little unique.

and so, you know, we do have to respond to what the community tells us to some extent.

but whether you're in the 19th ward, if you look at the the work that's been done on West Main Street, for instance I don't think anyone would have expected to see the traffic calming that's been implemented in that stretch of West Main between downtown and Bullshead as an as an example that folks would have seen that or anticipated that would have happened.

And here we are looking at really a transformative streetscape now to work with on West Main as we begin to make investments, working towards Bullshead.

That's just one example.

>> Okay, Tom, you want to continue.

>> There?

>> Fantastic.

That's that's great to hear.

I really again love this traffic calming idea.

Now, do you have any community outreaches?

I'm thinking about my students at Driver Education.

Students.

Do you have any sense in your in your vision or what you want to accomplish to reach young people, teenagers, in terms of this whole walkability issue and how it relates to responsibilities as a driver, et cetera.

>> Okay.

>> Well, I think it's a it's a great idea.

If we're not already doing it, Tom, especially in your role as a driver education teacher playing an important role in educating our young people about traffic safety.

so if we're not already doing that, perhaps there's some way we can get your contact information and have a have a follow up conversation about how we might be able to work together to get that message out.

>> So Eric is at the city of Rochester.

You could probably find him through their website, or you can send us an email if you like.

There.

Tom.

connections@wxxi.org.

It's Connections at wxxi.org.

Thank you for the phone call, Tom.

Charles says I've said it once and I'll say it again.

If Rochester wants to do this, do it.

But if it gets done, there are no more excuses.

You ride a bike outside a bike lane or on the wrong side of the road and cause an accident.

Then you cause the accident.

You don't use the sidewalk or the walkway, or you cross anywhere other than a crosswalk and you get hit by a car.

You have no recourse because you are at fault.

If my tax dollars are getting spent, whatever gets built better be used and we better not penalize drivers because cyclists or pedestrians were negligent.

That's from Charles.

You got a big smile on your face over there, Mike.

>> Well, that's a little bit of car brain.

I'll put it right out there.

but.

>> What do you mean by that?

>> Well, the notion that the cars have the precedent that we're supposed to work ourselves around that dominance, which I can understand because we grew up in a in a culture, in a society where that is the expectation we should have a clear, unfettered path in our vehicle to get where we're going.

>> I think he's arguing that he thinks car drivers are pretty responsible, and bicyclists and pedestrians are often not.

>> I think I think walkers, bicyclists and drivers can be irresponsible.

I think the ramifications of a driver being irresponsible are just so much more dramatic that that we need to go over the top and make sure that there's availability for bikers and walkers to be safe.

Yes, there should be rules for all and if you build it, they will come.

If you build bike lanes.

The other cities that have done this in a in a heavy way have shown you put the lanes there, people are going to use the lanes especially.

It goes back to the walkability component of safety, especially if the if the feeling is that they're safe, that there's bollards or barriers or the way that they've structured the street has some sort of protection for the for the biker, you will see bike riders and they will use the appropriate resources if, if they're made available.

>> Okay.

Anything you want to add there.

Yeah.

>> Yeah, yeah.

I will also say, you know to be able to legally drive on the road, you have to go through a process.

And I know many of my compatriots at Reconnect Rochester have been on the show before, so this is probably not a new statistic, but one that really, you know, hits close to home, which is, you know, just about one out of every four people living in the city of Rochester do not own a personal vehicle.

And so that means they're getting around town through other means.

And that can include walking and cycling and cycling in particular.

I can just hear the cycling manager at reconnect.

I can hear him talk right now saying, you know, we buy New York state law.

We are supposed to have cycling education in schools, and it's oftentimes not enforced.

So in terms of the knowledge that is supposed to be available to people who are using multimodal methods to get around, it's not always there.

Right.

And we do have a focus on trying to change the infrastructure to have more common healthy behaviors come around when it comes to multimodal transportation.

And so what that means is, you know, like, for instance, we narrow road drivers are naturally, you know, they're prompted to drive slower because it looks like they have less space.

It looks less like a highway.

So we definitely focus a lot on the infrastructure portion to try to encourage better and safer driving behaviors.

And of course, just like Mike was saying, anyone can be reckless on the road, but regardless of, you know, your method of being on that road.

but I think that also speaks to kind of what you were saying about, you know, we've have been infiltrated as a society with this car centric culture.

And so I think collectively, our work here is and, you know, because Gaylen and Mike are also on our committee for our Downtown Smart Streets project.

So we also are in that room discussing how can we have quick build solutions, you know, faster ways to redesign the streetscape to make it safer for pedestrians, particularly.

And so all of that is interconnected.

and, you know, I think that this is really a cultural shift that we are moving towards as there's so many things in the works when it comes to our own downtown area.

Traffic safety is one that we are working on in tandem with all of those other intersections.

so yeah, I think those are my thoughts on it.

>> Okay.

Anything you want to add there?

Erick Frisch having worked on, I mean, for a long time, we would talk to you as the, the point person when people would say, we need to be more bikeable, we need more multimodal, and we need more infrastructure for that.

you know, Charles is implying that he thinks that there's a recklessness that that needs to be accountable.

What do you think?

>> Well, there's there's bad behavior all around.

And I think what what Mike said earlier is accurate, right?

The bad behavior when it results in something caused by a bicyclist versus caused by a driver is exponentially different.

so I think everybody bears some responsibility, right?

We're all supposed to behave and obey the rules of the road and be smart when we're out traveling.

and, I think the work that reconnect is doing to, to to to spread the gospel is helpful toward that.

>> All right.

Pat, next on the phone.

Hey, Pat, go ahead.

>> Hi.

thanks for taking my call.

Sure.

I just wanted to point out one thing first, I think that Constellation Brands moving to Rochester, it to downtown Rochester is is wonderful.

And I wouldn't have it any other way, but I just want to point out the one thing that the reason why those buildings were empty is that 300 people lost their jobs.

When Thomson Reuters pulled out of Rochester.

So it's the the job gain is kind of a not so much of a gain.

It's like a net zero.

and also though technically to me at least, those buildings were not rehabbed.

They were remodeled.

They were perfectly you know, a functional office buildings at the time.

So.

But anyway.

But I'm still I'm very glad they're there.

>> Pat, thank you for the phone call.

Anything you guys want to add to the point there on sort of the jobs netting out or anything else?

>> Patz Patz.

Absolutely right.

there are pluses and minuses.

I wish we were all pluses.

but that was one where we lost Thomson Reuters and thankfully we we we gained constellation.

And I hope that as we continue to do this work, we see much more pluses.

>> Do you want to break any news right now?

>> Nothing I can share at the moment.

>> I always gotta ask city officials on.

Pat, thank you for that.

Charlie says, Evan, make no mistake about it, I love living next to Powder Mill Park, and I hike it several times a week.

However, at least a few times a month, my wife and I go back to the city and to Park Avenue to take long walks through her old neighborhood and see her old house.

We even go to Fairport to do the same activities.

We love the sidewalks, the trees, beautiful houses, and a cup of coffee or dinner and a drink.

Afterwards my daughter bought a house in Weilburg after moving from Brooklyn specifically so she could walk to shops and parks.

She had no interest in the burbs walking rules, that is from Charlie,.

Meanwhile, on the battle of what neighborhoods?

Even hotter here.

This is from Celia, who says, well, what about the South wedge?

I found it, found it very walkable by all four measures we've been talking about, which include useful, safe, comfortable and interesting.

Celia says all four measures.

That's the south wedge.

And much more interesting.

More diverse and more affordable than Park Ave.

And Celia goes on to say, North Winton Village is working on walkability, but not there yet for Celia.

What do you think about that?

Erick Frisch North Winton Village walkable.

I think there's part I don't live there, so I can't.

I don't live in.

>> That area.

It's it's a very diverse neighborhood and it's it's great.

And there are parts that are emerging and other parts of North Village that are very established.

and I'd say that the this this brings up another point, right?

Which is we've spent a lot of time talking about downtown Rochester, as in the Center City.

But of course, the city is made up of neighborhoods in every neighborhood has its own downtown.

Right?

Right.

>> Kind of like we talked about, just like a village can have a downtown.

Exactly.

>> Absolutely.

Our neighborhood business districts are are the lifeblood of of the city for, for for our residents.

And so whether it's the South Wedge or Park Ave or Maplewood or, or the Charlotte Harbor or whichever business district were were referring to these are these are just as important for the future of the city and also important that they be walkable places as well.

>> I just want to say, as someone who lives in Charlotte, we're getting a coffee shop at the old Cha Grill.

So it's going to be called Charlotte, I think.

Is that right?

Charlotte?

I like that very much.

Looking forward to that.

That's a that's a very fun place to bike and walk to.

and I don't know, Galen Park Ave versus South Wedge.

You didn't think you'd have to defend your home turf here?

I didn't, but, I.

>> Mean, but I also love the South wedge.

>> Yeah, the south wedge is pretty great.

>> I'd be very happy to live there, too.

>> Yeah.

and, Mike, do you think about North Winton as walkable?

>> I do, I mean, it's a little more residential.

So you're walking past houses to get to different retail, but it's it's tree lined and it's it's cozy.

So I think it very much I mean, everybody has a different definition of there's different ways walkable can be achieved.

I think it's wonderful that neighborhoods can even be in a position to compete that way.

And city neighborhoods.

And there's lessons to be learned.

I used to live in the 10th Ward, you know, Maplewood.

And that was that was a tough Dewey Ave is basically your main street.

and it wasn't really very walkable, even though there was retail.

But it was it was not a comfortable or safe feeling walk.

So I think it's great that neighborhoods can kind of compare themselves to each other and even downtown itself.

Downtown Rochester is big enough that we should be looking at that as a collection of neighborhoods in and of itself.

And I've always thought that we'll achieve we'll we will have achieved the dream.

When you can walk from the East End to High Falls and cover all four of those tenants to be interesting all the way through, not just have little pockets.

Where Four Corners is is this way and East Ave is this way.

And grow the Grove or whatnot.

Have an interconnected, stitched together streetscape that you can go from one end to the other, north to south, east to west, and have it be walkable.

That's when you've really achieved the density and the prosperity.

>> That feels achievable.

To me.

>> It does.

It does.

>> What is harder for me is so I live off of Lake Avenue, and someone who lives on my street got, I was very lucky, to use the cliche, lucky to be alive after an accident, pulling out and got hit by someone going no shock on Lake Avenue, flying car was totaled.

My neighbor was fine, thank goodness, but people on the street are wondering like, do we put like speed bumps?

And I'm going, you can't put I don't think you can put a speed bump on Lake Avenue.

People would be it'd be like a ramp and people would be flying.

I think that would be unsafe.

But people are desperate.

People are desperate to say, I live in a place that's pretty walkable.

And yet there's one thoroughfare that makes me scared, you know, pushing a stroller around, racing across Lake Avenue is not a lot of fun, and it will discourage people from doing it.

So sometimes you're so close to having what you want.

And there's one element that takes it away.

To your point about Dewey, not very walkable.

Ridge is like the least walkable place besides Henrietta in the world.

And I love you, Henrietta.

I spent years taking grief from people in Henrietta.

I do love you, Henrietta.

It's just not very walkable.

I don't think it's illegal to walk, as I used to say.

I just think it's not easy to do it.

So I want to ask our guests to all weigh in on.

I'm gonna go around the table.

What are the impediments to get where you want to go?

You described the ultimate goal here of being able to walk across all these neighborhoods downtown.

Yeah.

what's blocking that?

>> Well, from my perspective, from a downtown specific perspective, you know, I look mostly at the useful and interesting component.

There's other people that look at the safe and comfortable.

Yeah.

and so and I call it the UI.

Right.

Useful and interesting.

Literally downtown has a UI.

And if you're walking by surface parking lots, if you're walking by gaps in the streetscape, that is an impediment.

There's a perception of safety potentially.

Who's going to come out of the the corner?

there's a very much uninteresting element to that when you're especially parking lots, especially in bad weather, and you're in bad weather and you got to go past the surface lot, followed by an empty, you know, storefront, followed by another parking lot, you're not going to you're going to get in the car and you're going to drive three blocks, which is kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

But but people will do it just to avoid that.

So in infill, to me is the ultimate solution from a from a useful and interesting component because that infill is going to, by definition, have some purpose to it could be a store, it could be a small retail store or a series of small retail stores.

So now you've achieved that component of walkability.

so I think, I think from a downtown perspective, it's the infill.

It's the it's the not just the net zero repurposing of a building, but let's build a new building so that it stitches together that streetscape.

You're seeing that on West on West Main, you know, with with some of the development that's happening there, which is you had lots next to each other.

and now you've got beautiful residential buildings going up and more on the way.

so I think that's a big part of it.

The other part is, is the traffic calming, and it's harder to achieve on someplace like Lake Ave or whatnot, but it's easier to achieve, I think, in a downtown and it can take the shape of how you handle the intersections, having those bump outs or having the murals that create a visual distinction that the driver slows down.

And then let's not, you know, one thing we haven't mentioned at all is trees.

Trees are the ultimate traffic calming and walkability feature.

They serve double duty.

They're more.

They give you the shade.

They give you that.

That subconscious comfort as you're walking.

But they also serve to calm traffic.

>> It's all achievable.

I mean, again, now I sound like I'm doing PR, but ten years ago the neighborhood play totally different.

You walk around there now and you go, oh, my gosh.

And it's not even just straight lines.

There's there's all kinds of interesting design features.

The apartments look great.

The amount of things to do, you know, like this is Rochester.

This is great.

It's all doable.

We could do it.

>> Nooks and crannies.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

So what are the impediments that that you want to see overcome here, Galen?

>> Yeah.

It's a it's a great question.

Really.

A really important one at this time, I think not only filling in those missing teeth, those those vacant lots and that infill that's really important in the longer term.

but in the near term, filling the buildings, having more people in downtown and ensuring that there's outward connectivity for those people.

Right.

So what's the what's the activity on the ground floor?

What are the reasons why they want to move around downtown?

Why do they want to go out for a walk that ground floor retail piece is really key for that.

so seeing more small retail businesses on the ground floor facing outward to the street in downtown, that's a key piece.

Having more people in the buildings to go support them and visit them and walk around.

That's a really key piece.

And as we've talked about, we've seen a lot of gain in that regard.

And we will see more.

But I also think from a transportation network perspective, we need, adaptations more broadly in how our transportation network works.

And I'm of course, focusing mostly I'm solely focusing on downtown.

But the quality of our transit, the location and quality of our parking, those are really important for walkability in our downtown.

We need people to be able to like Jeff Speck says not treat the car like a absolute necessity.

Right?

We need people to be able to feel like it's optional and they can do other things comfortably.

And so that's both in their mobility decisions when they're either coming to downtown or they're driving home to downtown.

but it's also in very present in the experience that they will then have in downtown.

So that's big to me.

And then of course, the traffic calming pieces softening the edges, whether it's trees or planters, expansion of pedestrian space, quality of safety features at crossings, things like that.

I think there's a lot of low hanging fruit there.

And I know our city leadership is really keyed into it.

And working hard to chip away at that.

as aggressively as possible.

It's a lot of work.

>> Well, let's get Lourdes and Eric about a minute apiece.

Lourdes, how would you answer this?

>> Yeah, well, you know, I think everybody here has already touched on and said in detail a lot of great things.

so I'll take a little bit of a different direction and really talk about some of the lived experiences and the voices that help really shape out how to make this better.

Right.

If we're going to have a site specific and use community members voices in terms of the changes in the way that our downtown is going to evolve, I know one challenge can be to get those people in a room, and sometimes we've had many successes with people coming out and being able to share their, their problems and solutions.

but I think that's a big one, especially post pandemic.

It can be hard to get people out of the house for some of those advocacy things.

but I think they're very crucial in terms of, you know, weighing in on some of the evolution that is happening in downtown.

>> Well said.

And, Eric you know, you're in the city administration.

So what are the impediments to doing more of what you all want to do?

>> Well, what I'll say is that we I feel like we've been we've been performing kind of open heart surgery on the heart of our community for quite some time now.

Right?

As I mentioned before, fixing mistakes of the past and trying to build back that, that, that heart and soul, that identity.

Right?

That is, that is downtown.

What is downtown want to be.

And that takes really sticking to the visions that have been developed.

Right?

Especially, you know, the one that comes to mind is Rock the Riverway.

Right.

It's got great name recognition.

We've made a lot of progress on it and we need to see it through.

It brings people back to the river.

The river is the heart of this community.

and that means leveraging our partnerships, great partnerships with the county, with the state and hopefully again with the federal government someday and, and investing in those things and then working with our development community, small business community and others to fill in those gaps and bring it all together.

>> by the way, Rock Holiday Village, doing that again.

>> Absolutely.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

I actually don't even know.

>> Oh, yeah.

They're busy setting things up right now, so.

>> Okay.

>> Kicking off this Friday.

>> Okay.

Yeah, it just came to mind because when we think about the challenge of seasonality, that's that's taken the cold weather and turned it into a place that people want to be, you know.

>> Give people something unique and interesting to do, and they're going to come they've done a great job.

>> Yeah.

So, Lourdes, take us home here.

What's going on tomorrow night the people should know about.

>> Yes.

Everybody come on out.

We have our street films.

Walkable USA.

We'll be able to see the film together.

And then of course, afterwards have our panelists really talk about how this relates to downtown Rochester and continue that conversation.

So I warmly invite everyone to come and join us at the little theater tomorrow.

>> What time?

>> 6:30 p.m.

>> 6:30 p.m.

The film is only an hour.

And again, I'm just going to say if this is like your first foray into street films and and a film kind of a doc film of this nature, you're going to learn a ton an hour.

It's really well made.

It's very interesting.

And not everyone's going to agree on the right prescriptions for individual places.

But there's so much good history and data here that I think is a great jumping off point.

So great thing to do on a Tuesday night if you want to go down to the little Lourdes.

Thank you for being with us.

Project manager for Reconnect Rochester.

Have a great night tomorrow night.

Thank you.

Erick Frisch from the city of Rochester.

Nice to see you again.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you.

Galin Brooks.

Rochester Downtown Development Corporation.

Come back anytime.

Thanks for telling us what you guys are up to.

We appreciate it.

Thank you.

And our thanks to Mike Gilbert, Founder and Executive Director of Downtown ROCs.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you from all of us at Connections.

Wherever you are.

However you're hearing us, even if you're driving, please be careful.

but regardless, have a great afternoon.

Have a great day.

And we're back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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