>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in Buffalo back in June when Governor Kathy Hochul was visiting and spoke to reporters about clean energy initiatives in her administration.

I want to listen in just a moment to what Governor Hochul said.

Then she was talking during a heat wave, and she was talking about different forms of energy, clean energy, she said.

We need to radically increase New York's electricity supply and to do it in a way that does not threaten our commitment to clean air and a clean environment, and ensure that New York State remains a leader in the global fight against climate change.

Let's listen to some of Governor Hochul.

Five months ago.

>> Now, some people say you can't clean the grid and grow it at the same time.

Sounds like defeatism to me.

This is New York.

That's not how we think.

We don't back down from the hard problems.

We solve them and we build bigger and bolder than anyone could have imagined.

We're already scaling up wind and solar thermal emerging clean technologies.

I embrace all of them, and all of us from Western New York.

You cannot grow up in this area, not be a hard core environmentalist.

>> That was Governor Hochul in June saying that we're New Yorkers.

We don't back down from hard problems.

Five months later, she is backing down from hard problems, as my colleague Rosemary Mystery reports, Hochul has angered climate action advocates and clean energy policy proponents with a wave of walkback.

Hochul is now less than a year away from reelection, and she's decided that New York State needs to slow down on some of these initiatives, primarily because the governor says, well, she says clean energy is not compatible with affordability.

She didn't use those words herself.

She did say that she has to, quote, govern in reality, adding, quote, we are racing toward racing, waging war against clean energy from Washington Republicans, including the New York delegation of Republicans, which is why we have adopted an all of the above approach that includes a continued commitment to renewables and nuclear power to ensure grid reliability and affordability, end quote.

So here are some of the pivots that we're talking about from Governor Hochul.

Just recently, the state agreed on Wednesday to halt the all Electric Building Act until an appellate court rules on a lawsuit brought by a coalition of building and fossil fuel companies and organizations, including the New York State Builders Association and the National Propane Gas Association.

This is a move that was celebrated as a win for the fossil fuel industry.

Then Hochul's administration reversed itself on the issue of a proposed natural gas pipeline off the coast of New York City.

Finally, New York State reached a new agreement to allow a controversial bitcoin mining operation to keep operating its plant on Seneca Lake in the heart of the Finger Lakes.

As Miss reports, environmental groups, advocates and some lawmakers are viewing the actions as a sign that the governor is changing her views on renewable energy and climate change mitigation.

Assembly Member Emily Gallagher, of Brooklyn, says the governor's actions are disgusting, but the governor's office sees it another way not just governing in reality.

Ken Lovett, the governor's advisor on energy and environment, said, quote, the governor remains committed to the all electric buildings law and believes this action will help the state defend it as well as reduce regulatory uncertainty for developers.

During this period of litigation.

Governor Hochul remains resolved to providing more affordable, reliable and sustainable energy for New Yorkers.

End quote.

In other words, you can't have everything all at once, but you can slow down.

And if you do it right, you can have a better and cleaner energy system.

But many environmental groups don't buy it.

They see this as a capitulation from the governor.

My hope, of course, is to have the governor on the show.

She is always invited and I would love to tell you someday soon that that is going to happen.

That invitation is out.

What we're going to do today is hear the case from professionals in the field that the governor's framing is wrong on this, that slowing down, pausing on clean energy is not a way to govern in reality.

And it's not a way to keep energy more affordable.

By definition.

They'll make that case.

And let's listen this hour to Suzanne Hunt, vice president of policy for Generate Upcycle.

Suzanne, welcome back to the program.

>> Thanks, Evan.

Good to be here.

>> Margaret Wells, executive director of Ace New York is going to be joining us, hopefully in just a moment.

But we're going to start with Suzanne.

And I just want to ask you briefly here to kind of do the 30,000 foot and then we'll talk more specifically.

But when you see the governor's actions in the last week, a couple weeks, do you agree with some of your colleagues in this field that this looks like a capitulation, or do you buy the governor's framing that she's just being a pragmatist?

She's governing in reality, she's still just as committed to clean energy.

>> so we had Marguerite.

I'm not sure what happened there, but you know, I guess it's just you know, for for Marguerite, you know, and folks that are in the industry and I do want to distinguish, because you you cited a bunch of environmental organizations, and Marguerite and I both work in the clean tech or climate tech industry.

So we're, we're we work you know, she runs the industry association.

so she represents a whole bunch of companies that are out there building these clean energy solutions.

And I represent a company that also is out there building renewable energy facilities.

I'm going to let Marguerite back into the chat.

She should be back.

so it's it's different perspectives, right.

And I think that I'm taking the time to make that make that distinction, because I think that we, the folks that are out there building renewable energy assets and out there deploying, you know, solutions, know what we need to be able to scale these solutions quickly and is is cost effectively as possible.

So I think it's important for our industries to be in close contact with the government and giving them advice.

So so I just make that distinction.

no, I think it's it's disappointing to see the slow down.

I think there's a ton of solutions out there that help with the affordability crisis and the climate crisis that we could be deploying far faster than some of the solutions that the governor has been talking about lately.

So I think in that sense, it's just it's a bit confusing.

you know, I you mentioned the nuclear focus.

>> Yep.

>> I called up I called up a colleague in the nuclear industry this morning.

Super brilliant engineer.

And I said, best case scenario, how soon could a new nuclear plant be built and up and running in New York State?

And he said, best case scenario, 12 to 14 years.

and so I just don't know how that helps with the affordability crisis on her watch.

And then, you know, folks are upset that she approved a new gas pipeline that will take years to build, even after the litigation ends.

So I don't know how that helps with affordability and energy.

Reliable reliability in under her watch.

So I guess I guess what I would say is I just I would really love to hear the governor and her team explain their thinking on this.

And I would love for our industry to work with her and her team to help accelerate some of these solutions that we have that pay for themselves, that are ready much faster than some of the solutions that they're talking about.

>> So we're going to talk about this, how they could pay for themselves.

We're going to talk about some of the what we could be seeing in the future.

if it looks like what people like Suzanne Hunt would like to see, I want to bring in Marguerite Wells.

Now for some of Marguerite's ideas about what the governor has been saying.

And, Marguerite, I don't think it's arguable now that you've got the political right saying that affordability equals fossil fuels and a continuation of the status quo, and you're starting to see the center left in different places, do some of that as well.

You had a group of of members of the New York State Assembly, 19 members of the New York State Assembly had sent the governor a letter recently asking her to delay the the electrification law because of affordability concerns.

And this is what Assembly Member William Conrad said in that letter to the governor a couple of months ago.

He said the deal bolsters the argument I've been making alongside a growing coalition of colleagues.

He says this is not the time to add to the grid's load and essentially what Conrad and other Democrats in the in the Assembly were saying to the governor was slow down.

So, Marguerite, how do you how do you want to kind of start this conversation when we are talking about affordability and the narrative is taking root here, that is affordability.

Right now is status quo.

It's fossil fuels, clean energy is the future.

It's more expensive.

That is growing as a narrative.

And what do you want people to hear about that?

>> So there are a couple of things I'd want to unpack from that.

One of them is that the actual cost of the electricity itself is only a small component of people's electric bills.

much of what's on people's bills are things like property taxes.

It's the delivery and that transmission system.

So the cost of the electrons themselves at the generation source is not actually the component that's changing people's bills right now at all.

Another one is that it's clear from wherever you sit that we need more electricity on the grid.

As soon as we can get it there.

And as Suzanne just said new gas and nuclear plants would be many years in the offing.

So the quickest electrons that we can bring to the grid are going to help keep costs down for consumers and for all energy users, because we need more electricity.

And if we, you know, market market demand is such that if if we have a shortage of electricity and much demand for it, the price will automatically go up.

So by putting more and more electrons on the grid as quickly as we can, and that can only be renewable energy, because that's the only stuff that's ready to deploy, that has equipment that's ready to install, that's been in the interconnection queue and done all that studies.

And for the next few years, we still have tax credits that can be applied to those renewable projects, which help keep costs down.

So building more renewables is absolutely the only way to keep the energy component down of people's electricity bills.

But there are there are no other choices out there.

>> Marguerite, I'm looking at, you know, the way that Mikie Sherrill won her race in New Jersey for governor.

She ran against a candidate who vowed to ban ban turbine.

Turbine construction off the state's coast.

So Mikie Sherrill campaign.

She talked about declaring an energy emergency if she's elected governor of New Jersey.

And she's also talking about a clean energy portfolio.

She ran against the ban on wind turbine.

She wins by double digits.

She wins easily.

Meanwhile, just across the river in New York state, Governor Hochul sounds very different.

I would say right now.

And but again, as I said, she's not the only one in politics who sounds that way.

There are growing number of Democrats in the legislature.

So why do you think they have it wrong if they are wrong?

Marguerite?

>> Because energy is complicated and a lot of people don't understand it.

And it's really easy to pick up messaging that's sort of around.

And right now, because the federal government is so pro-fossil, I think it's just in the airwaves and people are picking it up whether they mean to or not.

>> I think we're also mixing some of that complexity.

We're mixing a little bit of apples and oranges as well.

So similar to Marguerite clarifying what is actually leading to increased bills.

You know, the, the generation of the power is very different than all these other fees on your bill.

similarly, a building electrification bill is different than the deploying, deploying more renewable electricity generation.

I mean, these are a lot of different complex sectors in our economy that all use energy.

but, you know, energy generation, distribution, transmission is different than building electrification.

which is, you know, adding to, to load.

But it's different than the supply.

So one of the things that's I think is interesting, we heard it in the governor's clip that you played, and you hear it all the time is a focus on the supply side, which is absolutely critical.

But the demand side of the equation is also absolutely critical.

And one of the things that we see in lots of other parts of the world and lots of other states is deploying a whole bunch of what they call demand side management strategies and technologies when I lived in D.C.

So just to give you a couple of examples when I lived in Washington, D.C., 15 years ago, my utility gave me the opportunity to have them install a smart thermostat in my apartment.

They paid me $100 a year for the right to be able to turn my my thermostat up or down a degree or two, a few times a year so that, they could turn my thermostat and thousands of other people's thermostats up a degree or two, or down a degree or two.

We never noticed.

Half the time people are at work, they're not even at home.

and it it meant that they didn't have to turn on an expensive peaker plant, and they could save everyone a ton of money.

And that by by managing the demand side of the equation.

Another example.

And so one question I have for New York State is why is that not offered statewide?

Why is it not a priority for New York State to make sure that these these things are available, offered, that, you know, all of the regs and the utility commission and everyone is in alignment to make these things possible that were possible 15 years ago in other parts.

>> Well, what did they tell you?

>> Why aren't they available?

>> I have.

>> No good answer.

Yeah.

I mean, they they are readily available and they're available for commercial customers in, in New York, but not for everyday homeowners very easily.

And I totally agree with Suzanne, because as I mentioned a minute ago, you know, two thirds of people's electric bills is the transmission and distribution cost and the taxes and all the associated stuff.

It isn't the actual generation of energy at all.

And the way to help keep that distribution cost down is to not overbuild the grid beyond what we actually need.

Yes, we need to upgrade the grid to modern standards absolutely than that.

But we don't want to build more than we need.

And right now, the grid everywhere is essentially built for the very few hottest days a year for sort of extreme circumstances.

But through modern technology, software, sensors, all that stuff can be modulated much better than 100 years ago when the current system was designed.

And by using smarter technology, we can save a ton of money and still deliver the results we want to people's homes, but keep their prices down.

So there's a whole bunch of wonky solutions that that there's no one magic bullet, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that could be done.

We're not doing okay.

>> Do you want to add that too.

>> Much?

>> Yeah.

No, that she's exactly.

That's spot on.

And a lot of these things are really quick.

Putting in a new thermostat is really quick.

It's really cheap compared to $1 billion pipeline or compared to, you know, a lot of these things that get all the air time in public discourse.

But it's these, as Marguerite said, wonky, nerdy little solutions that are not sexy.

They're not big headlines, but they add up to major, major cost savings.

And they they can be deployed immediately.

so another another thing that that isn't immediate, but it it's already available in other states.

my friends in California that were deploying home battery systems to homeowners and they arranged with the utility for all of these people's home, whether it was a Tesla Powerwall or some other commercially available product that people could just order.

They had thousands and thousands of people putting batteries in their homes and businesses, and it served as a virtual power plant for the utilities.

So at night, when there's excess wind or in the afternoon when there's excess solar, the batteries store it.

And then the utility gets to use those batteries whenever there's a spike.

so one of the the major pieces of advice that that experts in our field are giving to governors like the governor elect, Sherrill and, and governors like Governor Hochul, is to use the electrical grid that we already have for, you know, use it better.

Stop, stop, stop charging New Yorkers and stop charging, you know, folks in Virginia to build out more and more and more grid for these extreme cases when you could use all of these energy storage and smart grid technologies far faster and far cheaper.

another another thing that I would point out is that, you know, we haven't talked about it yet, and one of the many complex factors in people's electricity prices going up right now across the country is the increased demand.

And I think that's why you're starting to see some politicians get nervous about increased demand for electricity.

and there's a lot of ways for us to deal with that.

We've talked about a bunch of them, but one of them is, you know, if if there are huge new sources of demand coming into your state, whether it's A.I., data centers, whether it's new manufacturers that are going to put a huge stress on these on our grid require that they help pay for some of these things.

You know, there's so many ideas out there.

I was talking to our colleague Gigi Shaw yesterday.

And, you know, we're talking about requiring some of these data centers to help pay for weatherization of inefficient, low income housing.

There's all these things that could be done, to take strain off the grid and to make people's bills more affordable, especially low income New Yorkers and low income Americans that, you know, it just takes you know, it takes governors and it takes our legislature working together and saying, look, we're not going to we're not going to back off of our climate commitments because climate impacts cost New Yorkers.

It cost Americans lots of money.

You know what Superstorm Sandy cost New Yorkers over $50 billion?

You know, I don't want to you know, I don't want to I think I think there's a an important leadership role there to say, you know, climate change is expensive, too.

And we've got to we've got to all work together and be creative and and deploy the solutions that we can deploy now and, and make it a priority, make it a full court press to weatherize homes.

You know, pull.

And you know, I think like, gosh, you know, being governor is difficult.

What would I do?

And so I think about like, what are the tools in the governor's toolkit?

She has a New York Green Bank.

She has her public service commission.

She has partners in the legislature, all of all of whom should be asked to like to do a full court press on affordability that doesn't compromise our climate commitments.

>> Well, there's no question, Suzanne, that what the governor has said in the last couple of weeks will contribute to this political climate of linking affordability to fossil fuels and I think the governor would deny that.

I think she would say no.

She's trying to be sort of all of the above, but again, that narrative is so powerful right now.

And this governor is is sort of playing into that.

I don't I don't think that that is really deniable at this point.

One thing that she is hearing, and by the way, people can decide on their own whether they think that's appropriate.

But one thing that she's definitely hearing from people around her is, if you are the governor when we've got rolling blackouts, you're going to wear that for reelection.

And when when 19 Democrats in the Assembly send her a note saying, we're worried about the grid, she is concerned about that.

So could you both just kind of weigh in, make sure people understand a little bit who are in the lay public and they hear the lawmakers.

The governor's worried about blackouts.

They're worried about this increased demand, stress on the grid.

I mean, are we plausibly looking at blackouts anytime in the future in the state, in this country?

Is that a realistic thing for governors to be worried about?

Is that a justification for slowing down on clean energy and saying, we got to protect what we can do on the grid?

Suzanne, Marguerite.

>> Well, I just talked a whole bunch, so I'll let Marguerite.

>> Let's get Marguerite first.

Yeah.

>> I think.

>> It's.

>> Completely backwards.

Honestly.

no.

So the the New York Independent System operator has done quite a lot of work looking at reliability.

And although there are occasions in which in the next few years, New York City may have a shortfall of electricity, it's a completely it's a small amount and completely manageable by all the things Suzanne and I were just talking about in terms of managing demand.

If you're smart about when those peaks come, you don't have to have them be peaks.

You can shave them right off and push the energy use to a different time of day.

When generation is available.

Blackouts per se are not from a shortage of electrons.

That tends to be from a failure of some component.

You know, nobody's forgotten the blackout of 2003.

There has been enormous work done on New York State's grid, and all the sensors that run it since then, so that that won't happen again.

Or it's extremely, extremely unlikely to happen again.

because nobody wants that.

the other main thing that often causes blackouts is when there are storms that take down wires.

That has nothing to do with the generation or distribution of electrons.

That has everything to do with tree trimming and making sure that the tree trimming budgets of utilities are enforced, and they really do trim the trees, because that's often something that gets short shrift in a tight budget.

You say, well, maybe next year I'll trim those trees and then they come down in an ice storm.

So although it is certainly never.

a good thing to have blackouts, it has nothing to do with renewable energy.

>> Suzanne, you want to add to that?

>> I think Marguerite nailed it.

I mean, I just I guess I'm just confused if the authentic concern is blackouts and brownouts and, you know, I, you know, it's it's definitely a rational, you know, it's it's understandable that politicians would worry about that.

I imagine they get more calls, angry calls from constituents about blackouts than they do about just about anything.

while I understand that, I don't understand why they aren't focusing on these immediate short term solutions that we're talking about, and that's why, like my my suggestion is, you know, reach out to the best and brightest.

If New York is really concerned about an energy crisis in the next year, reach out to the best and brightest.

There are so many brilliant people like Marguerite who are out there doing this every day, all day on the ground, who know how you address these problems, how you do it affordably, and how you do it quickly.

So I guess I just don't understand why the press, you know, the headlines are, you know, nuclear and gas pipelines for reliability when we know that those things are years and years and years and years in the future before they become relevant for affordability or reliability in New York State, I just don't understand the strategy.

>> They are years in the future, but they are a lot of money involved right now.

As the New York Times recently reported on some links in the governor's husband's portfolio.

But again, again, that's probably a whole separate conversation there.

Philip and Brighton is on the phone.

Hey, Philip.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

I, as a customer of GE, I'm in a rate crisis emergency myself.

My bills gone up $150 a month already, and I haven't changed a thing.

And we're looking at even more increases coming next year.

And as far as I'm concerned, we need everything.

We need solar, we need wind.

We need, you know, environmentally great power, but we need other power.

We have they're they're proposing a massive A.I.

data center in Genesee County that's going to use 250MW of power.

And the power company is required to put a 600 megawatt substation on the site, because they're going to double that energy use in the next few years.

We have eight data centers A.I., crypto mining that are proposed right now in Western New York.

And that's going to put an enormous amount of additional demand in addition to just what we're doing.

Normally, we're getting more EV cars.

We're you know, people are using more energy in their homes.

And as we've seen in this area, we've had problems in Ontario County where people can't build houses because our genie can't supply them the power.

And we need new transmission lines all over the place.

And my question is, in the end, who's going to pay for all this?

It's going to be ratepayers.

not some of these investor owned utilities.

I think we need a big focus picture here on on doing something about affordability when it comes to profit making utility companies.

And of course, the impact of the Trump administration and their own edicts like natural gas exporting that to other countries when and it's just raising prices for that too.

And a lot of the power generation we have right now comes from natural gas.

So as far as I'm concerned, I'm for everything I want as much as we can do.

And if solar is going to do it faster or one's going to do it faster, we need to do it on our own.

Because the Trump administration certainly isn't going to do anything about it.

>> Philip.

>> Thank you for the phone call.

I'll start with Suzanne this time.

What do you make of that?

>> Well, I think this is where, again, like every single energy technology strategy has a different timeline, has different pros and cons, has different costs.

And it also has the one of the questions that the caller raised is who pays.

And, you know, the New York Times was reporting about the gas pipeline.

And they were estimating that the folks in the national grid utility service area, we're going to be paying, you know, we're going to get yet another price increase by 3.5% just to pay for the pipeline.

and so, you know, who pays for these things is is important.

And, and part of what we were talking about previously about better using better utilizing the existing grid when the utilities have to build out these new transmission lines and these new pipelines and things, they Marguerite should jump in because this is her area of expertise.

but they they do what's called rate basing, where they spread the cost out over our bills, the, the energy bills.

and that's how a lot of the infrastructure gets built.

Built if you talk to Marguerite, a lot of the this the wind and solar projects that her her members are building, they raise the money, they pay for those and then they they also have to pay to be able to interconnect to the power grid.

So I think there's a lot of education that we need to do because this is, as Marguerite said, so complicated, so that people understand, like some of these things get paid for by the ratepayers, and some of these things get paid for by the energy entrepreneurs.

And we need to detangle all of that so we can prioritize and and not these, these, these different energy sources come with different costs and different responsibilities for the costs and different environmental implications that we end up as society.

Paying eventually.

So I think we need a lot more.

We need a lot more education and information to be able to make the smartest choices, because we should be prioritizing, I think.

>> All right.

>> Marguerite.

>> Yeah, I think the caller did identify.

an a really important point in terms of the data centers writ large across western New York, and certainly the one nearest his house.

I think which will cause increased demand and will not in the near term bring any new generation along with their demand.

I think one of.

>> The.

>> The constructs.

that as a grid, we have had for a long time is that new load, which means any new user of electricity tends to be a job making enterprise.

It's a new factory.

It's a new widget maker.

And so they are not required to bring generation because they're just a customer like any other.

And they generally are an economic benefit to the state.

but I think A.I.

data centers maybe fall into a different category, and we don't have the legal framework to manage for that yet because they're brand new, but they don't really bring jobs.

They just bring load.

And it does increase the cost for everybody else.

And right now, there's not a clear mechanism by which A.I.

has to pay its fair share.

And I think it really has to in order to maintain its social license to operate, because otherwise all of us are paying to live near a data center, and only some of us use A.I.

in our daily lives, such that it actually generates benefit for us.

Mostly it just drives up the cost of power because it's a supply and demand thing.

>> Well, Philip.

>> Was talking about A.I.

centers.

Suzanne, did the Greenwich decision surprise you?

They're getting five more years at least to do Bitcoin mining on Seneca Lake.

There has been a lot of mobilization of public sentiment against that project.

Greenwich themselves, the company behind it.

They haven't said a whole lot to us publicly, but they they've sort of promised job numbers that seem I don't think it's a huge job number at that point.

I'm trying to understand what the governor's justification would be, or her administration's justification would be to say, we think this is a good idea.

This is a good thing to be doing in the heart of the Finger Lakes.

Any any insight there?

Suzanne.

>> I could not speak for the governor, governor, as to what her justification is.

I you know, I think, you know, one of the things that folks are are upset about is, is that we have a climate law and in place, it was passed in 2019. but it just set the targets.

It just said, we need to reduce our emissions by 85% by 2050.

We need to have zero, 100% zero carbon electricity by 2040.

But it didn't.

It had the what, but it didn't have the how.

And so one of the things, as Marguerite pointed out, you know, we need these legal frameworks to be able to solve the problem to be able to unlock the investment in clean, clean electricity generation.

We need that.

So we need a lot more policy and regulatory work around the power sector.

We need a lot more regulatory policy development for the transportation sector, for the building sector.

you know, if if the governor in the environment where we have this, this climate law and a judge just recently ruled that she, you know, that that the governor that the New York State government has to has to promulgate the regulations that they were supposed to put in place a year and a half ago to meet the the climate law.

that this is, you know, folks are getting frustrated that, you know, these that the climate law is basically sort of, you know, not being implemented.

So I guess I just don't understand if she was going to let it operate, why there wouldn't be a requirement that they install solar, wind and grid scale batteries.

Like if you're going to if your argument is that the community needs the tax revenue, that we need the jobs then say, okay, great.

But then you have to meet the you have to meet help us meet our renewable energy targets, I guess.

Yeah.

I just I couldn't speak to her justification there because there's, there's so much, so much like work that could be done to provide, you know, to put New York on the cutting edge of clean energy innovation that, you know, could could be a stronger focus.

>> Yeah.

>> You've seen a lot in your career, though, and I'm curious to know if this one was one.

Probably not a lot.

Surprised you surprises you anymore.

Is this one that did surprise you?

>> I, I mean, you listed a whole bunch of the different ways that climate progress is being slowed down.

So in that context, I don't know if it's surprising or not.

>> Okay.

we're talking to Suzanne Hunt.

Oh, go ahead.

Margaret.

>> Yes.

Is noting that there are many countries across the world that have banned crypto mining altogether because of its impact on energy demand in those countries like Mongolia, Afghanistan not allowed.

Why?

Because they recognize the fact that they need the electrons to serve their people, and that crypto is essentially serving a very small subset of wealthy people only and is not a public benefit in the same way as many other economic development projects.

>> Are.

>> Well, when we come back from our break, we've got a lot more questions from our audience.

And I know they're glad that Suzanne and Margaret are here.

they're making the case that that they think that the governor in the last couple of weeks maybe didn't have to throw the brakes on some of these clean energy initiatives.

and they certainly are making the case that it would be a big mistake to just assume that affordability equals status quo fossil fuels.

Suzanne Hunt, vice president of policy for Generate Upcycle Marguerite Wells, executive director of Ace New York.

We're going to come right back to some of your questions and comments for them.

On the other side of this break.

I'm Evan Dawson Thursday on the next Connections, on the heels of Veterans Day 2025, we're talking to veterans about social isolation.

And when you talk to veterans advocacy groups around the country, they say that isolation, depression, mental health is one of the big, big challenges, especially for older veterans.

But for everyone.

And we'll talk about resources to help on Thursday.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Next on the phone is Robert in Fairport.

Hey, Robert.

Go ahead.

>> Yeah, yeah, thanks for taking my call.

I got a question there for Suzanne.

Who's on the panel here?

I believe that her family found at Hunt Country Vineyards.

That was based in Branchport.

And Branchport, is located in Yates County.

That's an unusual county because about a quarter of the homes in Yates County are heated with propane.

And that's about 4 to 5 times the rate of the average rate of what's going on with that heat in New York State.

I'm kind of curious, how are those people going to deal with this?

Because the grid, I don't think the grid can even come close to handling heating.

Those some of those homes in the winter.

Some of those are mobile homes, too.

and so on.

I kind of like to hear your point of view on this.

>> Okay.

Thank you.

Robert.

Suzanne.

>> Yep.

I, I do hail from from Yates County.

so this is this is where the the conversation about and this is about the, the excess capacity in, in the grid.

This is this is where that comes into play.

So as Marguerite was explaining, the grid was built out for worst case scenarios, for those biggest peaks.

So on most days, most hours, there's a lot of excess capacity.

And actually in the electricity markets, there's the generation markets.

There's also capacity markets.

So our utilities pay a whole bunch of generation assets just to be be sitting there as as excess capacity.

They're called capacity payments.

so there's the grid has a lot of excess capacity, which is why Marguerite and I have spent a lot of time talking about all of these technologies to help balance supply and demand and get a lot more use out of the existing grid infrastructure without having to charge all of all of us more on our bills to build out even more infrastructure.

so there is excess capacity.

It's about managing it and using smart, smart technologies.

So for example, the smart thermostats, for example, timing your vehicle charging so that it's when there's excess electrons and it's cheaper for you.

So there's just all kinds of all kinds of, you know, sensors, as Marguerite was saying, and timers in all kinds of devices, whether it's a refrigerator or a car.

So there's just so, so it's it's not for lack of capacity in the grid.

It's for lack of of investment in, in all of the the technologies to help balance it as we add demand.

And then it's also about, you know, you know, it's interesting that data centers and new manufacturers are coming in and, and there seems to be a hesitancy to require them to pay for their fair share and pay for new generation.

But then if you want to electrify buildings or help people with inefficient propane heating, there seems to be kind of concern about that.

Like it just seems like a mismatch.

so so I think there's, you know, something to be explored there.

I think, you know, the, the cost of a lot of the technologies has gone down.

But, you know, I would point to a whole bunch of programs that have worked in other states, like Pay as You Save, where the utility pays for efficiency upgrades to people's homes.

and we could scale that up.

Across across New York, utilities have low cost capital.

They can go out and pay for for improvements.

And then folks reap the benefits the savings through their bill.

And it gets paid for through their bill.

there's so many things like that where can we can we take every single person in Yates County off of their inefficient heating tomorrow?

No, but there's so many opportunities out there that we could phase in over time with smart financing.

>> All right, let's get back.

Oh go ahead, Marguerite, do you want to jump in?

>> I was going to say I think energy efficiency writ large is such an unloved thing.

You know, it's not sexy to put the insulation in your walls and make sure that your doors and windows all shut tightly.

And don't let the wind in.

And yet the cheapest energy we can generate is the stuff we don't use.

And tightening up our old building stock of all kinds is really important.

And New York State has some programs to that effect.

But it has it has taken money away from them.

There's one called mPOWER plus that has had a bunch of money removed, has a little bit money put back in, but honestly, it could use ten times what it has.

And that specifically brings weatherization services to low income homes, especially in rural areas.

I think it's an amazing program and we need lots more of.

>> It.

>> Not less.

And so as I as I mentioned at the top of the program, why wouldn't we require anyone bringing a data center and a huge new load into New York State to pay for weatherization programs for people in Yates County and other counties?

Why wouldn't you require them if they're going to come put pressure on the grid?

They have to help other New Yorkers save money and and and help with the affordability issue.

>> I suspect, Suzanne, I can't speak for the governor's office.

They would say they didn't want to jeopardize any deals.

They want to get these deals done.

I think your suggestion, though, is that that would be a small price to pay and a fair thing to negotiate.

>> Yeah.

I mean, it's and it's not like New York is an island.

I mean, we have all these other states around us who are struggling with similar, similar dynamics.

And, you know, now we have Mikie Sherrill, we she you know, she has Shapiro in Pennsylvania.

There's a whole bunch of governors in New England that are are working on these issues.

They can all pick up the phone and call each other and align their strategies so that, you know, it's it's harder for a company to play one state off of another.

>> All right.

Back we go to the phones.

This is Karl in Waterloo.

Hey, Karl.

Go ahead.

>> How are you doing?

Evan I Waterloo is at the north end.

Seneca Lake, Seneca lake.

which is where Guardian Glass built their insulation.

factory.

And they, they put up two windmills.

Those windmills sat, sat at the end of the lake, stagnant, not moving for two years because they were in limbo with Nyseg trying to determine what Nyseg was going to pay them for the extra electric that they were going to be producing in what Nyseg was going to pay, you know, buy it back from from them for and those windmills aren't, aren't being used constantly.

There's there's a constant breeze off of Seneca Lake.

I just we're we have something here that could produce more electric, but yet the utility is telling the owner of these windmills.

Well, you can only produce so much electric.

And this is what we're going to pay you for.

The electric.

But me as a consumer, I can't tell nyseg.

Well, I'm only going to pay this much for my electric.

Do you follow what I'm saying?

>> Yeah.

Karl, I yeah.

Thank you.

Marguerite Wells.

Do you want to take that one?

>> Yeah.

I think one of the things you're identifying here, Karl, is right on.

And I'm familiar with those wind turbines myself.

there's not great alignment.

The way the market is built right now for the utility companies to want to help us with energy efficiency and to want to help with renewable energy, they get paid by building out more expensive transmission lines.

That's fundamentally their business model.

And so saving energy and and building green stuff just isn't really on their radar.

They're not incentive to do it.

I think I think as a state, we need to figure out ways to make it worth their while, to help us all deliver more efficient and more clean.

>> Energy.

>> Karl, thank you.

Edward says.

Evan.

Evan.

Evan, I think we are seeing the real Kathy Hochul.

Not the one who's been playing the role for the past five years as a centrist, progressive Democrat.

Let's remember that during her one term in Congress in 2012, Hochul was one of the only Democrats to receive an A rating from the National Rifle Association.

Let's also remember that in 2007, while serving as the Erie County Clerk, Kathy Hochul strongly opposed then-Governor Spitzer's plan to provide driver's licenses for undocumented immigrants.

Hochul even threatened to have law enforcement arrest any undocumented immigrants who showed up at the Erie County Clerk's office.

This is the real Kathy Hochul.

When she doesn't have the fear of a primary battle from a Democrat, I think there I think her lieutenant governor wants primary her, although I have to get myself caught up to speed on that.

Edward, I don't know exactly what's going to happen next year, but you are certainly free to see it how you want to see it.

And Joel in Rochester is next on the phone.

Hello, Joel.

Go ahead.

>> Hey, I've got a question for your guest about nuclear power.

It's been getting a lot of play.

Obviously, the governor called for more nuclear power.

I'd like to get their thoughts about that, especially since it seems like a lot of the costs of that are not only huge.

but but also, you know, get placed upon others, whether it's, you know, other parts of the United States or indigenous peoples in the southwest.

you know, I'd like to hear more about that.

We've seen across the United States a number of nuclear power plants that were decommissioned.

there's approximately 2 or 3 of them that have either been restarted or slated for being restarted.

And so I'd like to, you know, hear about that.

It seems like a waste of money to me, but I'd like to hear what the guests have to say about that.

>> Thank you.

Joel.

Suzanne.

Marguerite who wants to take this one?

>> I'll start.

I think there's been a real change in the tone around nuclear energy in the past.

Call it three years, if you will.

because I think in part, renewables, especially in New York, have been slower to get built than some people hoped.

When the clcpa was passed.

And with the expectations and increased demand, there aren't a lot of other choices other than renewables and nuclear to generate carbon free electrons.

I think one of the challenges with nuclear is speed.

It's not fast and it isn't cheap.

To the caller's point.

so I don't think it's a solution for near-term electricity bills in any way on a speed basis or on a cost basis.

I think there are hopes that over time, nuclear becomes less expensive and more reliable in terms of its cost to build, because all the recent plants built in the United States were many times over budget.

And I think that's attributed in part to unfamiliarity with building the facilities by the workforce themselves and by the developers.

whether or not that can be overcome through practice and time is to be determined.

but on its face, right now, it's a very expensive and slow choice to make.

>> Suzanne, anything to add?

>> Yeah, I would agree with Marguerite.

And I mean, for a long time there were, you know, decades, there was no new nuclear built, in part because it was so expensive and Wall Street didn't want to finance it.

I think, you know, as Marguerite pointed out, in the last few years, there's been a like a really a huge new upsurge in interest.

And there has been quite a bit of, of new investment in new types of reactors that can continuously reuse fuel and not create these really expensive waste problems that end up, you know, that taxpayers end up paying for.

So I, I think it's something that folks are starting to, embrace as part of the toolkit.

But in way in the future.

I mean, this is not something that helps us in the next decade and a half.

>> On that.

On that point.

>> Though, if I can ask you, Charles, who is a listener who wants to see more nuclear, he's responding to your point about talking to industry experts who think even if you started now, it's 12 to 14 years to get new nuclear, he says.

How much of that 12 to 14 years is the result of the overregulation that exists in New York state?

Seems to me that if you're building anything here, it won't be moving quickly.

Suzanne.

>> Yeah.

So I'm not deeply expert in the the regulatory process for nuclear, but but it is.

But but that but streamlining the bureaucratic processes getting better at the permitting process make speeding it up for clean energy.

Are those are important things that state governments can and should be doing right now.

I mean, one thing that we haven't really talked too much about is you know, just supporting New York State businesses and utilizing New York State's resources.

So I think we often talk about the costs of energy and, and, and, and the cost of government support.

but when you support New York State businesses and you utilize the resources we have here, you create a lot of tax revenue and you create economic activity within New York State that generates tax revenues, that then and it becomes, more of a system that that is cost effective.

And so, you know, I, we don't we are not Texas.

We're not Oklahoma.

We don't have a New York State oil and gas extraction industry, but we have a lot of sun, wind, water.

we have waste resources, waste heat.

We have food waste.

New York state passed food waste diversion law in 2019. to make sure that we're not sending massive quantities of food waste to landfill where it rots and leaks methane into the atmosphere, which is a super powerful climate pollutant.

but, you know, there hasn't been enough enforcement of that law.

There's there's a lot of things where we have the resources in place already, and we're just not we're not fully utilizing them.

All right.

and.

>> I would add.

Yeah.

Is that nuclear is permitted at the federal level only.

So any any schedule, relations with building a nuclear plant has nothing to do with New York State.

the two most recent nuclear plants that were built in the United States one in South Carolina, one in Georgia.

They were very slow to get off the mark.

And those are not heavily regulated locations.

>> All right.

We got to keep it tight here.

We're running out of time.

Avery in Fairport, 30s or less.

Go ahead.

Avery.

>> Hi, it's Mike.

It's my understanding that there are tremendous losses in distribution just by resistance in the wires.

Which which is points to the importance of point source production near whether that's small scale homeowners and residential, putting solar on their roofs or whether it's the big, big users like A.I.

on the other end, everybody should take into consideration the need for production near the the source, the point of use.

>> Okay, Suzanne Hunt, what do you think?

>> Yeah, I agree that there are losses in distribution.

And this is why distributed renewables across the state, like, also helps reduce the system level costs.

>> Okay.

Brian, last email, Brian and I'll direct this to Marguerite Wells.

Brian says if clean energy would actually lead to lower costs, every politician in the country would get on board because that's the easiest way to get reelected right now.

Tell the voters I lowered your costs.

So that's from Brian.

So Marguerite, he's he's not buying what he's hearing.

So what's the message for people like Brian who are you know, looking at this situation, looking at the political debates here and saying, well, really everybody would be on board if it would actually lower costs.

>> Well, the more renewables you build, the lower cost to the system overall.

There was recently a story how in Australia there are now three hours a day of free electricity for the residents of Australia because they have so much solar power, they don't need to meter for it.

in Texas they often have negative pricing where they pay you to use electricity at night when there's extra renewables on the grid.

These are these are true things that are out there in places that have a lot of renewable energy.

Whether that turns into votes.

I couldn't.

>> Tell you.

>> Okay, Suzanne, final thoughts from me, from you.

If you want to take some time there, go ahead.

>> Yeah.

I mean, I think we can look at the the recent elections and you know, governor elect Sherrill ran on reducing electricity costs by rapidly deploying renewables and other related solutions.

So I do think there is some precedent for that.

But I also think that there's a lot of competing industries that don't want to see politicians go in that direction.

that work really hard.

to maintain their support.

So it's not a our politics don't always function based on pure merit.

Let's say.

>> No, no way.

I appreciate the conversation this hour.

A tremendous amount of emails and feedback, a lot of interest in the subject of energy generation in New York State.

What is what is going on not only in the political sector, but what is affecting people at home.

And I appreciate the emails, the calls.

Suzanne Hunt, vice president of policy for Generate Upcycle.

Thank you for making the time for us today.

>> Happy to be here.

Thanks, Evan.

>> Marguerite Wells, executive director of Ace New York.

Thank you, Marguerite.

>> Glad to be here.

>> And from all of us at Connections.

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