>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on a football field where one team continues to win by using the same play over and over again.

It is predictable, and if the other team finally learns to recognize the play, they of course can change the outcome.

That is an analogy that Dr.

Bronwen Carroll used to describe childhood sexual abuse.

Dr.

Carroll is a pediatric emergency medicine physician at Boston Medical Center.

In a piece for Wbur earlier this year, she described how we as a society, can finally better recognize the signs of childhood sexual abuse, recognize them, and then prevent it.

According to the centers for Disease Control, at least 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 20 boys in the United States experienced childhood sexual abuse.

Experts say that figure is likely an underestimation because many victims choose not to come forward.

Awareness of this issue seems to be on the rise, as the Epstein case has been such a big part of the news cycle.

Prevention advocates say that by talking about abuse, we might be better able to prevent it.

My guests this hour are survivors of sexual abuse, and they're talking about healing through art, through an initiative called the survivors Art project.

They hope to empower fellow survivors and shine more light on the issue so as to prevent it, and so as to support survivors.

We're talking about all of that this hour.

And a word to our audience.

This conversation.

It may be difficult for some listeners to hear.

Please listen at your own discretion, and I'd like to welcome our guests this hour.

Beth Bloom is a retired peer support specialist and going to be talking about this project.

Great to have you, Beth.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you.

Across the table.

Welcome to Kim Brumber, who is owner of Conava Consulting and co-leader of the Survivors Art Project.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thanks.

>> Ivan Rebecca Phelps is a trauma therapist with the Survivors Art Project, a survivor of interpersonal violence.

Master's level clinical intern at Sustainable Wellness.

Welcome to the program.

Thanks for being here.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> So, Beth and Kim, I'll start with you.

Beth, do you want to just talk a bit about what this project is, how it came together?

And then again, I want to warn listeners, we're going to be talking about some personal stories.

I know this can be hard for people to hear, but I also think it can be empowering as well.

And we're going to do that respectfully, as we can do here.

But tell us about how the project came together, Beth.

>> Well not so many years ago Kim and I worked together and believe it or not, we were here talking about on your program, talking about something completely different.

And on the ride back to the office, this conversation started.

I don't think either of us knows why or what got it started.

we shared our experiences and, it, it obviously changed on some level.

Our, our friendship and, you know, there was certainly a deepening in our friendship and, and, you know, that the idea that we could support one another and from there, the project percolated for a couple of years until we were all in a place where we felt like it was time to move forward.

And it's taken us about two and a half years to bring the project to fruition the way it is.

>> You want to add to that?

>> Yeah, it was an amazing moment.

You know, that moment of shared experience.

And for me as a survivor, there's there's been all these things in my life that like the feeling of a certain type of cotton sheet or certain noises in the night.

And I always thought, oh my God, I'm just strange or weird or abnormal.

And what I realized in talking to Beth that so much of things that I happened to me and that I lived with, so did she.

And then as you talk to other survivors, so do they.

And all of a sudden you're not abnormal.

It's just what happened to you.

And that changes the whole thing in your brain.

>> What sparks a conversation like that?

>> I wish we could remember.

You know, I think we had a trust with one another just in general.

And it's hard.

you know, I kind of jumped in front of Beth, but I think, you know, it's that shame and secrecy that holds us all back from talking about it and as much healing as I've done, it still gets in my way.

I still trip over, up, over it.

But, you know, I'd be curious.

>> I, I like you, said Kim.

I don't think either one of us remembers exactly what the conversation was or how it got started, but it was, it was one of those conversations that, you know, kind of caused sparks.

and made that connection, pun intended to bring us together to have this shared experience.

And and if it's possible to say, make the most of what happened to us.

>> Well, so a couple of things here.

We're going to talk about this exhibit that's coming up here and you're going to hear the word healing this hour.

You know, Kim, we'll talk a little bit more about why it has been historically so difficult for survivors of this kind of abuse and violence.

But I also think the word healing is a little it's a little pat.

It's this idea that, well, have you healed?

And so now you're healed and now it's sort of over as opposed to what that means, sort of as an ongoing concept.

Is that fair?

>> That is very fair.

I talk about this as a life sentence.

You know, we move, we progress, we learn to adapt and live with the triggers that happen on a fairly regular basis.

For many of us.

But those scars never fully go away.

There will always be scars.

And that's a reality.

>> The exhibit is on Friday, April 3rd.

It's at the Art Center of Rochester that's on Titus Avenue.

If you haven't been there, and you can learn more at Survivors Art Project.

Survivors Art Project.

Org Beth, what are they going to see there?

>> we have work by, I think 9 or 10 different artists.

and they vary there's paintings, there's photographs, there's sculptures, there's books, there's just, there's just a vast array of different mediums that people used.

but also we want to, you know, make this a space where people feel safe.

which is why Rebecca is going to join us.

that, you know, there's, you know, someone they can talk to if they find it overwhelming.

but also we want it to be a place where conversations can start.

>> And so when can people see it?

>> it will be there between 6 p.m.

and 9 p.m.

on Friday.

And then on April 18th.

This was recently added from 1130 to 1230 in the afternoon, the gallery be open.

So if people can't make it on the third we will be available.

We'll be there on the 18th.

>> Rebecca, what's your role here?

>> Yeah, I'm stepping in kind of as a support person on the day of the event.

that way if anyone does get triggered or just wants to talk about what they saw and how it impacted them and maybe how it relates to their story, their triggers, anything like that.

we have someone dedicated to be there for them and for that support.

>> Now you are someone who is a a trauma therapist, which involves what, what does it take to become a trauma therapist?

>> Yeah.

So I began my journey in undergrad studying psychology.

and then went on to earn my master's degree.

I'm in the process of that now and finishing up with my clinical hours.

So you'll spend a good amount of time in school and then you'll go on to some clinical training.

Currently, I'm at Sustainable Wellness, which is a trauma focused practice.

So I'm learning from the wonderful clinicians there about trauma training, specifically complex trauma that many survivors experience.

and really learning to hone in on those skills specific to trauma.

>> You're a survivor yourself.

>> I am a survivor myself.

Yeah.

>> How does that inform the work that you do?

>> I think it very much informs the work I do.

I don't think I would have known back then that this is where I would end up.

so I do think it's a big part of why I'm a trauma therapist wanting to make sure that no one else felt the depths of the aloneness that I felt that these other survivors have, have spoken about to really be there for someone and those steps is, is sort of what inspired me to become a therapist.

and so I think it absolutely informs my approach and the way I'm able to sit with people and to just be with people in the heaviness.

>> When were you first able to talk about it and confront it?

>> Yeah.

it took me several years.

I worked in therapy and I had my own artistic expression as well.

That really helped me.

and I found that working through art, whatever medium often creates a space that you can express without words.

The words are really hard for me to get out and to kind of say them out loud.

Took a while.

And I worked with a therapist for a great long time.

She was a wonderful therapist and we never really said it out loud.

Right.

We both knew but I expressed in my own way.

And so then when I got more comfortable with that identity, when I had made more peace with it and navigated some of the triggers, I was able to speak up and speak publicly.

And recognized that that shame that we spoke about was not mine to hold.

And I think once that realization happened I was able to kind of release myself from this like urge to not talk about it, that this is mine to hold.

And yeah.

>> Shame is is a, obviously it's a very powerful word and idea.

but is shame what holds back people from talking about it?

Or is it simply wanting to bury the experience and never think about it again, never confront it again?

What is it that holds people back?

>> I think there's many experiences, right?

That, that go into this, that shame can hold people back.

I think that avoidance of wanting to talk about it can stem from that shame.

Right?

And we talk about, you know, in trauma therapy, we talk about the guilt versus shame and guilt is this you know, I feel guilty for what I've done for something that I've done and for an action versus shame is this internalized belief that you are something wrong?

You take that ownership.

and I think in patterns of abuse you're made to feel like you are the problem.

You deserve this.

And that is perpetuated onto you.

And so that shame can be really hard to release from if you internalize it and it feels like it's your fault.

And of course, if you feel like it's your fault, it feels like you want to avoid it.

You want to push it, you don't want to confront it.

so I think it's very layered in what goes into kind of this you know, pressure to keep it all in.

>> And as you mentioned, sometimes you can start to express it without actually articulating certain words out loud, but some people feel the need eventually to open up and talk.

Some probably never want to do that.

How do you as a therapist, work through?

I think I'm not a practitioner.

I think there's a baseline of saying, if you bottle this up forever and don't confront it, it probably will not be good for you.

But what it means to unbox it and unpack it might look different for different people.

How do you recognize, like, how do you work with people on that?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

I think you said exactly what it is.

It looks different for different people.

Processing for me might look different than survivors across from me in this room here.

And art is one of my favorite ways to, to do that, right?

You can express something without needing to have the words.

However, some people do need to have the words and essentially what processing is right is taking the traumatic experiences and reprograming them in your brain.

So it's not as activating when you experience it again and coming back online to that present moment.

So when we talk about processing traumatic materials and traumatic memories, it doesn't have to be a cookie cutter way to kind of process that, right?

You can work through it in your own way so that you're able to regulate, you're able to come back online, you're able to ground and come back into the present moment and recognize that it's not happening to you now.

And really what we're working to do is process those stored memories in your your short term memory and convert them to long term memory trauma memories stay stuck in that short term, which is when you're experiencing that trigger.

And so working through to process that material so your body can recognize what's going on, helps to reprocess that material.

>> The short term memory surface more often than long term.

>> so essentially for triggering material, what it feels like is it's happening in the moment.

So in terms of surfacing, I want to be honest and say I don't have enough information on, on that.

but what happens is you feel like in the present moment, you're experiencing the trauma all over again.

>> And so, you know, in cases like, so take the high profile Epstein case, there's a lot of talk about what survivors can do or what justice can look like or, or what should happen to perpetrators.

But certainly in a lot of abuse cases, as I read, the perpetrators are relatives.

Sometimes people very close to the victims.

And what justice might look like might be different.

I mean, if a person even wants or feels like they could have a relationship again, I, I, I'm so far removed from this and I feel kind of clumsy saying this.

Like, I don't know how you do that after that kind of abuse or breach of trust, but how do you as a therapist work through this question of, does a person still feel like they want some kind of justice?

Do they want any kind of rebuilding?

I mean, take take me through a little bit of that.

>> Yeah.

I also think justice looks different to every survivor.

there may be survivors that want to work through it in a way that feels safe and comfortable for them.

there, there may be survivors that, you know, want that confronted and want that communication.

There may be other survivors that accept it in their own way without that.

And I think understanding what justice means to the individual and how they can find that is what the work we can do.

in therapy.

>> So let me ask all three of you this and maybe relay to that.

I'll start with Rebecca here.

Do you think the Epstein case is helping the public at least grapple with this issue at a wider scale, better?

>> I think, the awareness that the, as we mentioned, the awareness that it's bringing to this issue is incredibly important.

I think we need to see a lot of safeguards in place related to social media and exposure.

And talking about this, I think for survivors, especially seeing that material can be really harmful triggering.

And so I think it's a double edged sword.

We want to create the awareness, we want to create the discussion, but we also want to protect the safety of survivors.

>> Kim, do you think the Epstein case is going to, is going to do any kind of a service as the public tries to deal with this issue?

>> Well, I believe it's opened up a conversation, to a broader swath of people than probably previously.

And I know for myself as a survivor, right.

It has also given given me an entry like you don't want to sit at lunch with your three friends and say, hey, guess what happened to me when I was five years old, right?

That gets hard, but you can talk about the Epstein file and then, you know if it feels right.

Share that you have personal experience and then kind of bring people along with you in a way.

So it's a, it's a bit of an entree that we haven't had before.

>> What do you think, Beth?

>> Well, I, I think because there has been so much in the press and the, the, the survivors of that horrible experiences are coming forward and saying, I want justice not just for myself, but for all of the other women that experienced this, that, yes, I do think it will make a difference.

>> And yet that question of justice is, is, feels out of reach for, for some of the victims here.

I mean, there are statutes of limitations.

There's questions.

I mean, Jeffrey Epstein has, for all we know, he is dead.

I think he is dead.

and so there was never a chance for for some victims to feel that justice was served.

I mean, certainly look at Ghislaine Maxwell.

That doesn't look like justice to me.

You know, she's in the nicest looking ostensible prison in the country.

>> does that make you feel despair?

Because, I mean, get away from the Epstein case.

I mean, a lot of the victims of abuse, it's really hard for survivors to confront, talk about, let alone talking about it with friends that you may never get the justice.

I mean, do you feel a sense of despair there, Beth?

>> I don't I mean, for myself, my abuser has passed away.

so I'll, you know, I won't get quote, unquote justice, but I, I don't think that for me at least I don't think that's necessary for, I can't speak to how others feel about, you know, wanting justice.

I mean, obviously Jeffrey Epstein is dead.

Nothing's going to happen with that.

But there are so many other people that were involved in this incredible, you know, international scandal.

So there is justice happening.

Maybe not to Epstein, but other people are feeling the the, the outcome of of survivors speaking up.

>> Okay.

Do you feel that way?

Kim.

>> Yeah, I think I struggle because we've seen other countries or corporations act swiftly, right?

Someone's name is.

>> More swiftly than in this country.

>> Exactly.

>> Absolutely.

>> Yes.

And I believe you you referenced the statute of limitations, right?

Our government has the power and the if they had the will to override the statute of limitations.

But there is no movement.

And I think to me that sends a message to all survivors, sadly, that it's not this is not important in American culture.

>> Yeah.

And so, you know, maybe tied up to that, Rebecca, is this idea that with the Epstein files, it's about power.

And so it's about powerful people not being held to account or many powerful people.

Although, as Beth says, we are seeing day by day, maybe a slow drip of that changing.

But in any relationship, there is a power dynamic.

And you know, if you're five years old, if you're whatever, if you're a child, if you're a relative, there is probably a huge power imbalance.

Is a power imbalance almost always at the at the center of abuse cases like this.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

abuse is a power dynamic, right?

And so it's taking advantage of that.

It's enforcing that, it's making that happen.

And the person being abused is always at a disadvantage.

And so recognizing those dynamics of power and control and talking about them is so important.

for safety, for survivors, for children and just recognizing like what feels safe and what isn't safe and, and what power can feel like and how we can, you know, tell someone and create safety and have these conversations at appropriate age levels so that you know, safety can happen.

Yeah.

>> So let me ask all three of our guests and I'm trying to, trying to do this in a way that I think is instructive for the, for the audience as we try to better understand how to help survivors, how to recognize survivors, how to be better friends and, you know, sort of community members.

Kim, I think it's interesting that you point out that it's hard to talk about this with anybody, but if the whole world is talking about the Epstein case, that maybe that is the entry, maybe you go, I you know, you may have a hard time believing this, but here you go.

And what I want to ask you is, how have you felt like you wished you could have talked about it more, that you wished others could have understood it more?

Or do you not want to discuss or confront this very often?

Do you?

Would you rather most days not do that?

>> Well, I feel like I've been talking about it most of my life.

at some level.

And you know, I don't feel the need to talk about it as much anymore because I've done a great deal of therapy around this, but it it has been valuable to be able to talk to people.

And there are still moments when it's important there's a variety of ways it shows up.

So I, I think the ability to talk about it is important.

And I even, you know, as, as far along on the journey as I am, like last night, I was joking to someone this morning I came out on Facebook, I posted the invite to the art exhibit and a little bit about, you know, this is personal.

It's important to me and anyone who reads that can can know, right?

Like, so all of a sudden, and I have a lot of followers, the world knows that.

Kim Brumber is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.

So there's going to be former colleagues, longtime friends, people I still engage with professionally and most importantly, my family.

Now, they don't know if the person who abused me was a family member or not, but I'm sure people are going to start to wonder.

>> Do you want them to re I mean, like, do you want them to react?

If you have a friend who didn't know this about you and they see a Facebook post, do you want them to send you a private note saying, I I'm here for you?

I did not know this.

I you know, I love you, I care about you.

Or do you want them to understand that?

And then maybe just keep some distance?

>> You know, I think knowing I think that's been the magic in this moment as having others support me and us, the support of our committee has helped.

I think all of us grow because this has been such an an individual path for so many decades in my life.

so I think there's strength in that shared experience.

But, but strength in, in allies coming around us in whatever way is appropriate.

Like I think that's going to be different for each of us.

>> Was there something that happened that allowed you to first talk about it when you were able to first talk about it?

>> You know, I think probably therapy and probably when I was younger, I, I may have at times overshared about it.

>> I know I, I mean, I, I think that's interesting and probably, you know, again, part of that range of reaction and experience but how has therapy helped you over the years?

>> Oh my gosh, it's been life changing.

you know, probably one of the most obvious pieces for me is I used to have horrible night terrors and, you know, many nights I would be awake all night because of the, the night terror, which for those that don't know, is like a very severe nightmare.

it feels very real.

It feels like the act is happening again.

And I would wake up and because your adrenaline is so amped up off the charts, like I wouldn't sleep all night and I've been an executive most of my life.

So sleepless nights really made work hard.

I have worked with therapists who helped me and I would need Rebecca's help on this.

I use a technique called eMDR.

so with a properly trained therapist in that technique, it somehow broke the connection in my mind.

I don't, you know, she would speak more technically, but I have a, I have a bad dream about it occasionally now, but nothing like I used to have.

It was debilitating before.

>> Do you want to add to that?

>> I think you did a great job.

eMDR is a trauma therapy technique.

And so the eye movement just desensitization.

So you're maybe following a tool or someone's finger.

And so the idea behind it is you are taking those short term memories where you may experience those night terrors and things like that of that nature.

and you're converting them to long term memory so that you can process them and then they don't come up in that same way as if you're reliving it.

>> I mean, I have talked about this on the program for, for different reasons, have lived with night terrors and, you know, up out of bed sprinting down a road until I woke up.

jumping over a stairway and landing a flight below based on what felt like a very vivid, real thing.

And, and through therapy and medical intervention, being told that there are times where my brain and body don't disengage the way that they're properly supposed to, but there's different reasons for that.

And there is kind of, you know, I mean, I'm able to talk about it now.

It's embarrassing in a way.

And it was nerve wracking because it could affect relationships or different things.

And mine was for totally different reasons.

Kim.

But that's just one example of something that you lived with as a result of your trauma.

Do you think there are things about you that people didn't understand that were related to the trauma, or do you feel like therapy helped you kind of compartmentalize?

I don't know if that's the right word, but compartmentalize in a way that is allowed you to live the life that you've wanted to live and not be held back by the abuse.

>> I would say both.

And you know, I think for me, as many of us as children, we dissociate to deal with the abuse.

That's how our, our minds and bodies adapt and cope.

And, you know, I can say that it wasn't until 2018 that I really lived my life dissociated.

Now that probably allowed me to function without a lot of impact from stresses of my job and things like that.

But I was also not fully alive.

Like I wasn't experiencing the highs and the lows.

So there was, there was some loss with that, but also what I lived through has made me a better leader and executive.

I'm much more compassionate.

I think I have much more understanding for people.

I understand what people's kind of lots in life, you know, do to them or, or cause for them.

And so I think there's, there's been some loss with what happened to me, but there's also been it made me who I am.

>> Do you think you're less judgmental because of it?

>> Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

>> Yeah.

and 2018 is the marker for you of where you felt more fully alive.

I think you said.

>> Absolutely.

That's not that long ago.

>> Why 2018?

>> well that's interesting.

And we talked about, you know, sharing our personal stories, right?

>> And stop the inquiry wherever you want, by the way.

>> Yeah.

And I appreciate that, Evan.

That's, that's, that's very wonderful.

So for me, there were three periods of abuse.

And the two, when I was older, a later like 15, 16 teacher.

9 to 12, my parents best friend, but I had all of the indicators like almost like symptoms that said that probably somewhere 4 to 6 years old, I had been abused, but I could not for the life of me remember that.

Wow.

And in 2018, I was doing eMDR with my therapist around some fear to be alone in my house at night, and the memory came back and I realized it was my father.

And it was that like 4 to 6 period, right.

And, and it was the work I had done a lot of work around the two later episodes, but that work, once I had that memory from the eMDR and I could really peel that back then I, I don't, I'm not disassociated anymore.

I can slide back into that if something's really rough.

But in general, I feel the highs and the lows now it's really interesting.

>> Oh my God, I I'm just I'm very sorry.

I mean, I'm in a way, it sounds like you are grateful to have that information and understanding other days where you wish you didn't know that.

>> now I would say no, not really.

You know, at the time I was much closer to my dad than my mother and, and we were buddies and, you know, kind of coming to some understanding in my own mind of how someone who supposedly loved me, you know, could do this to me.

And, and it's, it's a journey for all of us, right?

And we figure that out in ways that make sense for each of us.

Some people don't want anything to do with that person or will always think negatively.

my dad was already deceased.

My mom was already deceased at that point.

And I think for me, I have to understand that all of us are products of our own upbringing.

And I know enough about my mom and dad's upbringing to know that it's probably not surprising that this happened to me like we are.

It's cyclical, right?

It's generational abuse in that.

>> just lastly, just for people wondering about the therapy here, because what a frankly, what a breakthrough for, for your understanding.

Yeah, I, this is a, again, a kind of a clumsy question, but are you sure that the therapy techniques work?

Is it, do you feel confident that that was the answer?

>> Absolutely.

Once it happened, it's like that.

you know, a friend of mine uses the analogy of like the when you're doing the combination lock and it, you hit that last click and like all the clicks like, like you got it.

And then all like all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, like so many things then made sense.

>> Wow.

Kim is a co-leader of the Survivors Art Project and starting on Friday, you got a couple chances to see it, but they'd love to see you 6 to 9.

I think Friday evening at the Art Center of Rochester on Titus.

And when we come back from our break, I think we've got a couple of images.

one from Beth, one from Kim to share.

If you're watching on YouTube.

And we're going to talk more about how art can help again with healing.

Again, healing is not a singular one stop destination.

It's a lifelong, but certainly art can help.

And we're talking about sexual abuse survivors and what art is doing for them on the other side of this break.

I'm Evan Dawson Wednesday on the next Connections.

It's time to go to the movies.

Astrophysicist Adam Frank went to go see Project Hail Mary.

It is the biggest movie in America right now.

Ryan Gosling, the biggest star in the country, probably.

Does the science hold up?

And is it fun?

Is it interesting to imagine aliens and a possible buddy movie?

Adam Frank joins us talking project Hail Mary.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola center, supporting residents to become active members of the community from developing life skills to gaining independence.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

If you missed what Beth was saying earlier, Beth Bloom, who is a retired peer support specialist and we're talking about the Survivors Art Project.

It's not just one medium, it's a it's a number of different showings.

And on Friday night, you've got a chance to see that at the Art Center of Rochester on Titus.

So, Beth, I think we've got an image from Beth's work that we can share.

There you go.

All right, Beth, so we can see if you're watching on YouTube.

But for those who aren't, Beth, can you describe this piece and take us through what you think art can do for someone like you?

>> well, I originally came to Rochester to go study art, and I think this piece, which is a it's a photograph, but it's printed on a large sheet of cardstock.

of a little girl with wings and I've taken it and I've painted it, I've beaded it, I've used different media to bring out different things.

the wings are kind of an iridescent.

So is the mask and so all of these things, I think help to the idea of, of fly free that, you know, we all have that capacity to do so at some point.

>> The piece, your piece has a lot of gray and a lot of sort of melancholy.

And then the wings and then some of it looks like the mask to me are very colorful.

Why is that?

>> it's actually the media I use is just a piece of, of, of film, like an iridescent film that I cut and pasted in there.

So that's just the reflection of the light.

her dress is painted with a metallic gold paint.

I think it's a little hard to see here.

but there is some, you know, it does shimmer.

>> It looks like a kind of an emergence from fog to me.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I agree that's, you know, that idea.

>> Of, you know, the artist is always allowed to tell the consumer that they're wrong.

>> No, I, I think that's true.

I, for me, it's, it's being able to, you know, break free of, of the, the, the heaviness that has, that has sat with me you know, all of my life and really hindered so many things.

I tried to do.

and this is for me a very, a piece that talks about, you know, breaking away from that and being able to distance myself from it.

>> How do you think the abuse that you suffered had held you back or affected you over over the years?

>> my abuser was, was also my dad who's gone and he, he threatened to, you know, he threatened people.

I loved my siblings, my mother, if I told anybody so that kept me quiet.

and you know, as a kid in school, I, I really struggled with, you know, reading and all those, you know, kind of core things grow up thinking I was stupid.

that, you know, I just didn't understand >> but, you know, as an adult, now that I look back in relationships, you know, I was always really struggling with relationships, whether they be friends you know, personal relationships.

I, I just couldn't put myself out there.

I had to stay protected.

and I, I didn't really have my first memory until sometime around, you know, 29 or 30, and, you know, told my therapist you know, that.

>> You mean you had suppressed it.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

>> I told my therapist, I kept saying in my mind this picture of the man with the bad eyes.

And I. I didn't know what that meant.

>> it took a long time.

It took a lot of talking about it.

It took a lot of making art.

to just get me past.

You know, trying to get to the point where I felt like I might have words for it.

And the man with the bad eyes turned out to be my father.

>> Have you found any peace with that?

>> I have, I have I've worked with some really fantastic therapists over the years.

you know, a big shout out to, to the therapists who, you know, are willing to do this kind of really hard work.

but also you know, supportive friends and recently within the last two years, I think I as an adult was diagnosed with ADHD and that kind, that changed how I looked at myself.

It changed, it made me realize that, you know, I'm not stupid, that you know, how I learn is different, how I manage my emotions is different.

That I, you know, I just, you know, I've come to the point where I said, you know, you go, girl, you're getting there.

>> How does art help you?

>> one, it gives me a focus when, when I sit down in my studio with my audiobook and the dog I, I can just focus on one thing and because a lot of my work is done with incredibly tiny little beads.

I have to focus.

And when I'm, when I'm doing that, when I'm in that space, it's like there's nothing else out there.

Because if I don't pay attention, something's going to go wrong.

So that has, you know, it's just been that, you know, place where I go where I need to kind of unwind and, and just chill out.

>> Yeah.

So it's interesting to me because a lot of the time when we talk about art as a medium for expressing pain, trauma, et cetera., it's the final piece.

And when we saw Beth's final piece, you can sort of see certain things expressed through that.

But for you, the process kind of seems to mentally ground you.

>> And oh, the process for me is, is very, very important.

It always has been.

I mean, I started out when I came to Rochester studying photography and you know, I loved being in the darkroom.

I loved this was a long time ago.

I loved the idea of this, this like quiet place.

It was dark.

nobody was going to bother me.

you know, it was the same kind of really intense focus on, you know, one thing for a while where I could, you know, kind of calm down.

>> I take it you've seen the other pieces of art that are going to be on display on Friday.

Is that right?

>> I have yes.

>> what do you think of what you've seen?

>> I am I'm in awe of how the other artists have.

Been able to take their experiences and translate that into something that is for them.

I hope healing for other people.

Maybe they'll understand on a more visceral level.

but again, it, we don't, it does when it's a piece of art, it doesn't need words.

And I think with many survivors myself having the words to describe it, having the words to talk about it is such a struggle.

>> Kim.

Can we I think we can take a look.

If you're again, if you're following along on YouTube, but Kim will describe it for the listening audience.

I think we've got a piece from from Kim.

So go ahead.

Kim.

>> Right.

So that's a picture.

The image on the right and left side.

That's me at about 11 years old.

>> So there's a split.

Your face is split on both sides at the age of 11.

>> At the age of 11 very violent act.

with my parents best friend who's in the picture.

And that is my mom.

And you can tell by the picture that they had a close relationship and that she may have prioritized her own personal needs over protecting her child.

>> You're talking about your mother here.

Yeah.

So you were abused by your parents best friend.

>> Yep.

>> And so in your piece here, your 11 year old self is torn in half.

And in the middle is your smiling mother with a, I think the blurred out face of your parent's best friend who did, who committed the abuse.

>> Yes.

>> why did you choose to blur the face there?

>> I guess I felt like some some people aren't mine to reveal at some level.

>> Oh, wow.

>> You know, there's, there's people who could probably look at that.

And if they know me, they know my mom.

They could probably guess who that is.

But, you know, I just didn't feel that was not what this was about for me.

It was about what, what the experience did to me and was the abuse.

The man was the abuse.

The fact that my mother didn't believe me.

Right.

There's like multiple stories happening at once in that picture.

But regardless, both, both really destroyed me in many ways.

>> You tried to tell your mother.

>> Yeah.

>> Did you find peace with with your mother on that?

>> I would say we did not.

>> Yeah.

I mean, I'm going to turn to the therapist in the room.

Sometimes we go looking for these pat endings where there's peace and everyone sort of has this understanding.

And sometimes that's not coming and sometimes that may not, sometimes it may not be, I don't know if the word appropriate is the right word, but sometimes I just listening to the stories here and it's really hard to hear about parents allowing their children to be hurt or hurting their children.

It's just so difficult and I'm so grateful for all of you sharing these stories because they're powerful, and I know they're going to help people.

but there's a part of me that thinks that someone might not be deserving of sort of absolution, that sometimes that healing or that forgiveness or that peace may not be coming to a perpetrator and they may not deserve it.

Is that just me seeking vengeance or is that I mean, like, how do you see that as a therapist?

>> Yeah, I think personally, I've had a lot of conversations about this as well.

what does justice look like?

What does, you know, peace look like?

I know it doesn't always come from the person that perpetrated.

And a lot of times, no, it's not appropriate and it's not safe for the survivor to reengage.

but peace can be something that you can find within yourself in different ways through art, through therapy, through you know, finding that within yourself is ultimately the goal.

And the other person and their journey to whatever justice may look like for them.

I think ultimately, you know, can be a part of the journey for healing for survivor.

But I think it's ultimately something that comes from your own definition within of what peace and safety and, and moving forward looks like.

>> Outside the realm of child sexual abuse, which is what we've been talking about this hour.

Just in general.

I've read a lot in recent years on the subject of forgiveness and the power of forgiveness and the way that especially in sort of the online digital world, everything feels amped up and political and families are splitting and people don't want to talk and, and you read about the power of sort of healing and forgiveness, but then I read a really interesting sort of counterpoint, which is like, you really should not forgive someone unless they have earned your forgiveness.

And that means, you know, you may desire some sort of healing or peace, but there has to be an earning of that.

And that's everyone's got a different sort of threshold for how to get there.

And sometimes we have to be okay with not having forgiveness.

Does that does that make sense to you as a therapist?

>> Yeah, I hear I'm hearing what you're saying.

And I think what's important is recognizing what your definition of forgiveness is.

Right?

Perhaps accepting that you may not get that from the person that you know, deserves to take ownership, right?

but recognizing that forgiveness can be whatever you make of it, right?

It doesn't have to be called forgiveness if forgiveness doesn't feel appropriate.

but deciding for yourself, you know, how am I going to move forward from this situation?

How am I going to handle, you know, what, what I have to, to live through.

And that person may be involved, they may not be involved, but I think the concept of forgiveness sometimes how I approach it is really just letting the survivor define what that is, right?

What that looks like.

And sometimes forgiveness isn't the right word, right?

It might be acceptance.

It might be something else entirely.

>> Kim, are you in, in general, in your, in your work life and your personal life throughout your life?

Are you a forgiving person?

>> I would say overly so.

A lot of times, yeah.

>> Do you think any of your childhood experience impacted that.

>> I think the way I grew up, you know, yes, the childhood sexual abuse, but even beyond that, yeah, I think, I think it has given me a perspective on humans, right.

And just an understanding that we are, we're all flawed, right?

I've hurt enough people in my life and we just hurt in different ways at different levels.

And none of us are perfect.

>> What do you make of the art that you've seen that's going to be on display on Friday?

>> Oh, it's oh my gosh, it's, it's so moving.

you know, when we embarked upon this path, when Beth and I really started talking about this and the committee started meeting, we didn't know if we'd have two pieces or 200.

And, you know, we have, like Beth said, probably mid 20s.

And we're happy with it.

And it's it's all unique and you know, to me it's about the, the stories, the artist statements, the stories that come through the art and the community that we're building now.

>> The exhibit is 6 to 9 Friday.

Can folks stop in to see it briefly?

Is there a program?

What what do you plan to do?

>> We're basically just an open house, you know, come in, look at the art talk to, you know, the committee members talk or don't talk, share your experience.

>> Or don't talk as we've been finding out this hour, talk or don't talk.

Right.

>> Right, right.

but we want, we want anyone who comes to experience the art, however they can it's not about us to tell people how to experience art.

>> I'm gonna read an email from Melissa.

They didn't ask me not to name them.

I'm not gonna read a name, but it just says as a child, I grew up in a neighborhood with an older boy.

We were in grammar school and he was in junior high high school who sexually touched many of the kids in the neighborhood.

I only learned he says.

I only learned some of this decades later.

And I always thought of it as being just a part of growing up.

But my therapist said it was sexual abuse and it took me a long time and a lot of therapy to understand and accept this.

This type of abuse is rarely spoken about, but should be.

That's from a listener.

So first of all, thank you for sending the email.

And second of all, just an indication of the way that this conversation is moving.

>> Kevin, one of the things that we didn't touch on is that boys who've been sexually abused as children rarely talk about it.

And rarely.

>> Boys more than girls are, are, are not going to talk about it.

>> They, you know, they're, they're you grow up with the idea that, you know, you don't boys don't cry.

And you have to be a man and, you know, suck it up.

and how do you, how do you talk to your friends about it?

You know, when you're 11?

Oh, by the way, this happened, you know, as, as children, we don't we don't have the language or the understanding to, to talk about it.

>> Well, that's why I, I know there's a lot of hope in finding therapists, if you can find them.

I mean, if, if you end up on that, that path and you find someone like Rebecca Phelps, I want to thank all of you for being here.

This hour has disappeared.

And so if you want to learn more about where this goes in the future, come back in the future and talk to us, Beth, because this is a one.

And this has happened on Friday and then again later this month on.

>> April 18th, from 1130 to 1230.

>> But the website is Survivors Art Project dot Survivors Art Project.org.

You can see the art Friday night, April 3rd at the Art Center of Rochester.

That's on Titus 6 to 9.

Pop in there, introduce yourself.

They'd love to see you.

And we've already seen some of the pieces.

They're really moving and then come back in the future.

Beth, tell us about where you go next with this.

Thank you for coming in and telling us about this.

>> Well, thank you.

>> Beth Bloom Kim Brumber and honor to talk to you.

Thank you for being here.

Share your story.

Rebecca Phelps.

Thank you for your expertise.

Thanks for being here.

And from all of us at Connections.

Thank you for listening.

Thanks for being with us.

Wherever you are finding this program.

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