From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in a New York City suburb in the days after the 2024 election.

Dorris Davis and Susie Bartlett had spent many happy years together, but now they were facing a decision.

Here's how Reuters reported the story this past weekend.

Quote when U.S. President Donald Trump decided to seek a second term in the white House, Dorris Davis and Susie Bartlett, an interracial lesbian couple living in New York City, made a life changing decision.

If he won, they decided they would move abroad.

The couple said they had been willing to give Trump ago during his first term, but they'd watched in alarm as he returned to office and ended a range of policies they thought were aimed at promoting racial equity and rights for Lgbtq+ people.

We love this country, but we don't love what it has become, said Davis, a 69 year old educational consultant.

When your identity is being attacked, there is a personal sense of anger and frustration.

Now they're working with an immigration lawyer to assess options in Europe.

The couple is most interested in Portugal and Spain, attracted by the southern European lifestyle, and are looking at it as a digital nomad or retirement visa, end quote.

The Reuters headline is rather direct.

Fearful of Trump, some Americans look to make a life in Europe.

And the data appears to back up the claim they report, quote, government visa and citizenship data, as well as Reuters.

Interviews with eight relocation firms indicate that a surging number of Americans are considering moving to Europe in the wake of Trump's election.

Though the figures remain relatively small for a nation of 340 million people, U.S. applications for Irish passports are up 60% in France, government data showed that long stay visa requests from Americans are up 25% over a year ago.

Black sit, a company that helps black Americans move abroad, saw traffic to its site jump over 50% following the election.

It has also seen a 20% increase in its paid membership.

Community.

Blacks at Go global passport and applications for UK passports in the last three months of 2024 were a record of any quarter in decades.

End quote.

Now, to be fair, relocation companies and websites helping people emigrate say that at any time, any given time.

In recent years, a significant number of Americans have shown an interest in moving abroad, citing issues that go beyond politics.

Sometimes it's social issues, sometimes it's to reconnect with family.

Sometimes it's retirement goals.

Sometimes it's the relatively high level of things like gun violence in the United States.

Italian immigration advisor Marco Peruvian is the founder of Italian Citizenship Assistance.

He noted that the election of President Biden in 2020 led to an increase in interest, too, mainly from Republican voters, although pro-Union said that most did not follow through.

But he says the chatter spikes every four years.

Most of the relocation firms that Reuters spoke to said there has been a much larger spike in interest since this recent election.

So this hour is not just about not about politics.

It's not just about escaping the kind of politics you don't like.

It's about how this process might work.

How long it would take, what it might require, depending on where you want to go for whatever reason.

And I want to talk to our guests about their experiences.

In studio is Ruby Lockhart, a Rochester resident who lives in Italy for part of the year.

Co-owner of All Day Sunday, a retired labor specialist for New York State United Teachers and retired executive director of Garth Fagan Dance.

Welcome.

Thank you for being here, Ruby.

Thank you for asking me.

And on the line with us, Christine Vanden Bruhl is co proprietor of Spino Secco in northern Tuscany.

What time is it where you are, Christine Vanden Bruhl.

First I want to say happy birthday, Ruby.

Thank you for having some 7:00 at night.

Well, welcome.

Thank you for making time.

And Marieta Nolan is with us as well.

Co proprietor of Spino Seco.

Hello, Marietta.

Hello.

Thanks for having us, Evan.

So.

Oh, I had to say chow.

Chow chow to Marietta and to Christine.

Who are kind of living.

If you're someone who likes the Italian countryside and I don't know who doesn't, they're kind of living the dream.

We're going to talk about that.

and I want to start by saying to Ruby, who's with me in studio.

you and I talked a little bit last week, and, you know, this this need not be a conversation for 60 minutes about politics.

That's not necessarily what it's about.

It's about understanding what your options are.

It's about getting to a point where you want to go for it.

And so for you, you're a Rochester resident who lives in Italy for a big part of the year.

When did you decide to go for it?

What did what was that process like for you?

Well, it started back during Covid.

I was planning a trip to Italy and it was canceled.

And thereafter, I think it's a little more than two years now.

Christine and Marietta, purchased Spino Seco.

So I saw that as an opportunity to go abroad, where people I know and who have already had experience were going to be there.

So that's what I did.

My daughter and I went, for a short visit three weeks, in May 2nd years ago.

And then later that year, I went for three months because the limit for the year is 180 days for Americans.

So that's what I did.

I mean, were you just radiating with with envy when you went for the first time a couple of years ago?

yes.

Salivating.

it's it's a pretty remarkable thing to see some because there's a lot of to as Reuters notes, there's a lot of talk about this kind of move.

And sometimes it is for political reasons and sometimes it's for other reasons.

But the follow through, it takes a lot, and you can understand why people may dream of it.

They may say, well, someday I'm going to go live somewhere.

And then it's hard to whether it's money, whether it's understanding what the legal process is like.

So for you now, the arrangement is 180 days.

Is that right?

It's the law.

It's not what I want.

It's what the law is.

What do you want?

I'd like to be there more full time, but 180 days is satisfactory.

I go 90 days at a time.

And Christian and Marietta are there year round.

So it's like having a family there.

And you have everything you need when you go to Spain.

Sacco.

Because the apartment is fully equipped.

You have your kitchen, you have living area, you have swimming pool, you have hiking.

See, there's nothing that you want that you don't have.

So when I went back the second time, it was over winter.

It was like October, November, December.

I came home before Christmas.

And then the next time I went, I went December, January and February and I've gone May, June.

So I wanted to see what it would be like all year round.

And mostly it's fantastic all year round.

It doesn't matter whether it's raining or cold or hot, it's just magnificent.

How's your Italian these days?

Not good, but they have apps for that.

That's one place where I is maybe going to make it even easier to communicate with.

People don't even have to learn languages in the future.

So that's a bit of Ruby story.

And by the way, Ruby, you know, when I read the Reuters story and the story of Doris Davis and Suzy Bartlett, you know, they are very explicitly talking about making a move like this for political reasons.

Do you know people who talk like that who say, well, if X and Y, I talk like that?

You talk like, yes.

Last November, I was sure that Kamala Harris was going to be president.

So I called my trip was in, which was going to be in October until after the election.

I wanted to celebrate on U.S. soil when something so phenomenal happened, when she didn't, when I left in December.

And it was for that reason.

Marietta had posted something on Instagram which said, post election retreat.

I said, that's me.

You know, that's exactly what I need at this time.

So I went there and December, coincidentally, Christian happened to be in the States at that time.

So we went back together and I didn't have all of the post-election hype or blues, that kind of malaise that sets in when your candidate win loses because you're in another country, because you're in another kind of a political detox.

Oh my God, it was phenomenal.

You don't have it on TV because you're not watching TV.

So if it's not on social media, then I'm not really keeping up with it.

And because this has happened before, you know, 2016, the the show that was going to come after his election, you could predict what it was going to be.

So I want it to be a way for that time.

Let me be fair.

Relocation companies definitely heard from people who said they would move if Hillary Clinton won in 2016. you know, they hear it.

They hear it all at these firms.

There are firms explicitly that do this.

It's just that they say the numbers indicate something different and more, fixed and permanent this time around.

And so, Ruby, what would you say to the idea that no matter what your politics are, you know, going to another country based on an election result, you know, that's too much, that's too extreme, you know, why do that?

Why not stay and push for whatever you want to see happen?

Why leave?

Because I was born in 1946.

Been here, done that.

You know, just because a clown moves into the white House, you know, doesn't make it, I mean, he thinks he's a king, but he's a clown.

I don't want to be in a country where that kind of leadership is tolerated.

I want to be somewhere where people are celebrated.

And that's the difference in moving abroad, where you go, the people that you meet, they're all coming from some sort of strife.

Perhaps you know the Israelis that live next door to Marietta and Kristen.

They're there because of what happened in Israel.

We have German neighbors.

We have British neighbors.

We have Dutch neighbors.

We have neighbors from all over, right, in Tuscany.

And when you get over why you left the country, you embrace what you're moving to.

And what I like is the whole lifestyle, you know, the kind of comfort that people have with each other and differences.

And as I said to you on the phone, I don't feel black in Italy because everybody something, you know, the whole, expat migration there leads you in a community of a lot of different people.

Do you feel black in the United States?

Oh, yes.

I wasn't going to swear, but I've had to catch myself.

I heard, oh, my gosh, I'm good at it.

Yeah.

Very good at it, Ruby.

Okay.

Live at it.

Thank you.

Rob Braden's back there.

Ready with the dumb button.

But you got it.

So you feel black in the United States.

What is that?

What does that mean to you?

That means every day.

Every where, no matter what, what interactions you have, whether it's at the bank, whether it's in your car, it's just that race makes a difference if you're applying for a job, if you know young people when you're coaching them, applying for job, it all comes back to race.

And that's one of the things that's going to happen in this country.

When you go to the meritorious system that the government is now pushing for, that takes race out of it.

where's the checks and balances?

Tell me a little bit more.

Oh, so you're king on all the talk about merit that comes from this administration?

Yes.

To replace programs like affirmative action, civil rights, all of those things that we fought so hard for since 400 years.

Okay.

I mean, but I'm looking at the population of Italy, 1.5% black, less than this country.

And yet, when you are there as a black woman, you think about your race less.

I don't think about my race period in Italy, and I've gone from Tuscany down to the Amalfi Coast to lots of little villages, countryside to cities, every place that I've gone.

People are helpful.

They're friendly.

They're open.

And I've made quite a number of friends that I can call my friends.

As a result of being with Christian and Marietta and being.

It's been a circle.

It creates a community of people who come together despite differences.

It's not that we all agree.

It's that there's a certain level of respect there that for differences that's not present in the United States at this moment.

In a second, we're going to ask Christian and Maria to tell to tell the story of how Spinoza came to be.

I did want to ask you one other point, though.

When you talk about how you felt in November after the election and how you wanted to seek refuge in a place where you wouldn't feel that angst.

Someone listening is thinking, wait a second, who's the Prime minister of Italy?

Like, you mean like they're, you know, they're connecting sometimes.

No, I connected the dots too.

But that's not my problem.

You know, Malone is not my problem when I'm there.

You know, the issues that they have as citizens, they do not affect me.

I'm not a citizen.

I'm there to enjoy myself, to have historical experiences if I want to.

To have vacation privileges that I want to.

And that's what I'm there for.

I'm not there for politics when I'm here.

I can't escape politics.

They never stop.

Well, Kristen Van and Bruhl and Mariette and Nolan are co proprietors of Spino Seco in Tuscany.

I first met Kristen years ago when Kristen ran a wine shop on Park Avenue in Rochester.

I didn't I didn't know that in the future, this person who was teaching me about wine wasn't going to be living in Tuscany.

You know, kind of living the dream.

So Kristen and Mariette are going to I want to give you some space to tell the story of how Spino Seco came to be.

And if you don't mind, Kristen, talk a little about process and what you learned along the way.

For anybody who is thinking about maybe those kind of future journeys themselves, well, first I think, thanks, Evan, for having us on.

Yeah, I think I'm going to I'm going to let Marieta start, because it really was her dream that I kind of latched on to.

So you wanted to go ahead and start?

Marianne is from the Netherlands.

I don't know, I'm not American.

I didn't know that.

Scoped out politics.

You know, to me, but I was, actually, I had an empty nest.

So my son left a house to go studying, and I was I was living on my own, and I lived in Amsterdam in a good part of Amsterdam.

So my house really got a lot of value.

And when I was there and my house was so empty, at one point I thought, okay, what?

Why am I I'm a writer so I can, you know, work everywhere.

And I thought, why am I still living in this big city in this very expensive house?

So I sold my house, without really an idea of what to do.

No, I had an idea what to do.

I thought, I'm going.

I want to make a place where people can come by themselves, by by themselves alone.

Also in a group or in, as a couple.

But I want it to be a place where people could come alone, but in good company.

and that was my vague idea that I had, but I didn't have a house yet, or a place where I could, manifest that.

And I just bought, after I sold my house, I bought a big car, and I thought I'd find a place.

And on my way, I met Kristen because she was on holiday.

A friend of mine invited me on a holiday, so we met there, and, I was going to look at, at a property, a property, a property.

Sometimes my English, property in, in a little place called Farm Ghetto in the north of Italy, near the French border.

And I liked that place a lot, but it was the not so in the end, not so beautiful.

But I knew everybody there, so I felt safe.

I was doing it alone.

And then, the group where we had to travel with Sam said to Christian, you have to go there because she's going waste of money.

And and you are in and in real estate.

So you know what?

You you can maybe hell for not doing stupid things.

Thank indeed.

Christian came and, that said, I had my eyes on.

She said to me, if you buy that, you will be bankrupt.

So, and, yeah, we got to know each other better and, we, we decided to do this together, but still, based on the idea of creating, a place where you where you can, can have a loose, yeah.

Loose togetherness people can share, can be there alone, you know, in their apartments or.

But they can also get together as a community.

when they want to, you know, as they want to.

So we began looking, we started over on the French Italian border.

Then we went up to Piedmont.

We took us our first trip.

Well, the first time I went was like in December.

Then I came back in April, and in April is when we decided maybe we'd do something together.

And then I came back in June, and then in August I came for a month and we bought, we put an offer on a house, but we started looking kind of the, you know, on the French Italian border.

Then we went to Piemonte, then we went to we looked on the map.

Marietta wanted to be, less 12 hours or less from the Netherlands because her son was still going to be in the Netherlands.

So we looked at a map and saw northern Tuscany.

I don't I don't know, northern Tuscany.

Neither did Marietta, but it sounded good.

So we went in August of 2022 and looked at 16 houses.

Yeah, the first house we so we, we came off the highway from Parma.

It was the first time we ever been in that area and I showed, I saw the sign and next to the highway.

And so I thought, well, after we going to look at a house there, we had an appointment there.

So I said, let's go out of the highway and, you know, go to the property and just take a look already.

And we went to page.

I mean, we went to the village, nice village, beautiful village on a hill and, medieval village really pretty.

And we walked up onto the gate and then we came up to the house and we saw the gate, and I said to Christian, we don't have to look any further.

This is it.

It's Christian and much more like, you know, from, for instinctive.

Let's see if this, but we have to see the 16 houses, and we have to make pro and come.

To the 16 houses.

but we gonna buy this, ended up and then we saw the 16 houses.

But we.

Yes, we we we bought them.

Yeah.

We hadn't even been inside.

We haven't been inside the house yet, but, the the house we bought, stood high above everything else we saw, and we realized we could create that kind of world that we that she first envisioned in this.

And but at this place.

Unbelievable.

Christian, over the last couple of years, how many people have said you're Diane Lane?

This is under the Tuscan sun?

right.

Well, it's, Yeah, a lot of.

Well, I'll just tell you, my my family and friends were kind of shocked that somewhat shocked that I was going to do something like this.

just, you know, I didn't imagine that I would move here right away.

I thought I would kind of invest with Marietta in this place, and I'd come back and forth and help out as needed and do the kind of the dance that, Ruby's doing, which is the three months in and three months back in the States.

And I did that the first year.

I came for like six weeks with back for six weeks.

I had to follow a calendar to make sure that you didn't overstay the 90 days and 180 day period, but the our business really took off and we got busy a lot sooner than we thought we were, and a lot busier than we thought we were.

And I had a dog and a cat and that became a problem.

How to wait?

Where do I leave them?

So, well, you know, I definitely was not totally organized in my mind of what what I was going to be doing.

You know, there's things I didn't definitely neither one of us thought about, but we we learned and we did it by the seat of our pants, and and here we are, you know, two years later and loving every minute of it.

Absolutely.

It's an amazing adventure.

So what was your Ruby when you first got there?

What was it like for you to understand that you're not only just on holiday?

Now?

Here you are with a friend of yours from Rochester who's actually doing this.

Did that open your eyes to the possibility?

can I interrupt?

Oh, sure.

Just interrupt.

I have to tell you that Ruby came with her gardening clothes and her gardening equipment, and she came, and her daughter thought they were going to visit us, you know, run around Italy.

And Ruby spent every day fixing our garden, working on our garden, planting flowers, planting pots.

You are a terrible vacation.

I had a great time.

But that's your first.

Yes, that's what happened when Christine first posted the pictures of the castle and the apartments and everything.

Charlene, my daughter said, you know, we should look for houses while we're there.

We'd never been to Italy, and this is our first three weeks, but we both had this instinct that this would be one of the places that we could resettle.

You know, once she retires and everything, we just buy a place together in the countryside and, like, oh, yeah, it's the best.

And then that.

Well, both of us now, next month, we're going to Spain and to Portugal to see what that type of living is.

But back to Spain.

Oh, Seco.

When I first came, I was like one day by the pool or half a day, but my whole goal was to garden because I could see from the pictures, that they could use a gardener.

So I spent, well, you know, they have a lot.

They had a lot to do and I could do outside.

And they began to.

Christine probably trusted me, but Marieta, she would ask me questions and I'd ask her what she would like.

And as sooner or later she said, just go do what you what you think you should do.

But it's not like, you know where the garden store is.

Yes, I do, right outside Spain.

Oh, I know how to go every place around Spino Seco and all of the little villages, and where all the flower shops are amazing.

Yeah.

And that the sounds very.

I understand this kind of sounds.

I think the kids would say bougie or whatever, and I apologize for that.

But the Italian countryside is the best is, oh my God, I go to the market every day.

The best.

Yeah.

And, Marieta said, well, you, you and Kristen, you guys like to go to the store a lot.

The market and Italy's fresh.

Everything's fresh and it's all new.

And you have to translate what it is you're reading.

So you could spend a lot of time in the market and they cook differently than we do.

So you don't buy a whole bunch of stuff.

You kind of buy what you need.

So there's a reason to go out and do things every day.

And, you know, you think about the pace of life and your point about feeling like you cannot escape the tension that comes from American politics, the media noise, all of that.

It contributes to a digitization, we're all on our screens.

The pace is the stress is high.

It feels in the countryside there, like you are back in time somewhere.

Oh, it's amazing.

And I'm glad to hear that hasn't changed, by the way.

It hasn't because it's quiet there.

Except there's always waterfalls.

There's always the river, there's always the sea.

There's always something in nature that's flowing and making you feel invigorated.

So you can be outside every day.

And, Christian in Marietta, they have to hike every day because they have dogs.

And when I was there, Marietta took my dog every day.

So there's 3 or 4 or five dogs at all times.

So it's almost like a doggy hotel, too.

But, you know, that's the other thing.

Legally, how do you get your dog to Italy?

Because I took my dog both times that I've gone, I've taken my dog.

Okay.

So just a remarkable set of stories here.

Ruby Lockhart, if you're just joining us, is a Rochester resident who spends roughly half the year in Italy at 180 days, which is the max.

Correct.

Two different 90 day segments which the law allows for.

When we come back from our only break, what we're going to talk, we're going to answer some questions that have come from listeners will get some comments.

Questions.

And it's not obviously it's not the same in every country.

Italy will have different rules than the UK or Ireland.

And and so let's let's take a look at some of what we know.

We'll try to answer some comments and questions.

And I want to talk to Ruby about what the future might hold for her.

If you're wondering, wait a second.

Ruby's a 180 days a year, but Kristen's there full time.

How does that happen?

We're going to talk to Kristen in Marietta about, you know, nailing down that permanent status and a lot more.

So if, if you're just tuning in here, we're talking about this idea that maybe someday in the future of your life, sooner or later, you might want to move abroad, and you're we're talking to people who are actually doing that and what that entails.

They happen to be going to northern Tuscany.

Poor souls.

They're making it work.

We're coming right back on connections.

I'm having Dawson Tuesday on the next connections.

The International Plaza in Rochester opened this past weekend for the season.

They've got a lot going on celebrating Latino culture, music, the arts and more.

But we'll also talk about how they are feeling, about what they are seeing in our community when it comes to fear, sometimes politics and more good conversation coming your way on Tuesday.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, so some questions comments are on or in regards to, how you're able to do this legally.

And, you know, here's here's David and Ovid.

He says, I'm someone who would like to, would love to live overseas.

In fact, I'd like to permanently move away, preferably to the UK, where my great grandfather mistakenly left, leaving me stuck in that crazy country between Canada and Mexico.

But David says when I researched moving overseas, it looks very difficult to do so.

For any extended period, it appears you have to be employed by a company overseas or be independently wealthy or married to a local citizen.

As much as I'd like to go home, it looks hopelessly impossible to me.

That is from from David.

So looking at some of the info that we've been able to gather here, David.

so we'll get back to Italy in a second from the UK Immigration office under the heading can a US citizen just move to the UK?

They right.

You will need to apply for whichever visa type you legally need for the purpose of your proposed UK move.

As a general rule, you will be able to move to the UK, providing you meet the visa requirements for US citizens to live in England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales within your chosen visa category.

when it comes to, Italian citizenship, you can't.

According to the Italian consulate there you can apply for Italian citizenship by descent through the consulate or directly in Italy if you wish to speed up the process.

And if you can stay in country for a couple of months, the procurement of all the supporting documents generally takes a few months.

And it's a very delicate process.

So this is new to you.

If you've got Italian heritage, you I would encourage you to look this up online because, it is it is real.

I know people who are doing it.

I've got a family member in Ohio who has done it.

and, it involves doing some genealogy, looking up some family history, and being sometimes going to small towns in Italy trying to prove where people came from.

But yes, there's ways to do that there.

Now, Kristen van, how did you do this?

How did you pull all this off?

So, there's there are different types of visas available, like the word or, you know, different options.

Actually, not too many options for me.

when I decided that I really wanted to be here, more than the 90 day kind of period, I, we worked with a company called Smart Move Italy.

it's a Canadian woman, and her business is in Florence, I think.

Now, but they kind of, on their website.

You could find a lot of information.

So I explored, you know, what they were up to, their website was very helpful in figuring out how I was going to be able to do this.

and I went through a retirement visa is what is probably the easiest way to get there.

If you're in the position to retire, you have to, you know, retire from your, job.

and you have to prove that you make over that.

You take in over 31,000 a year through a pension or through, I think it's gonna be passive income, right?

Yeah.

So, that was the way I was able to do it.

I was able to, I'm a widow.

I was able to take my husband's Social Security, and then I, sold my house, and I'm holding a mortgage on it, so that qualified me to, get the what's called the elective residency visa.

it takes about a year to get through that process.

you you have to do it.

You have to apply from the States.

you can't come to Italy and do it.

You have to go through your local consulate, which in my case was New York City.

And, it's a bit nerve wracking.

You have a lot of paperwork to fill out.

You have to show everything about your assets, your income, you know, things like that.

it's, you know, moving to staying more than 183 days a year in Italy means that I become a tax.

I have to pay Italian taxes.

So that also complicates that.

And that's.

This is going to be my 2025.

Will be the first year that I'll have to try to figure out Italian taxes, American taxes and all that.

I have an accountant here in Italy, and I have an accountant in the United States that are working together to figure out the process.

And there Rubio is, nodding at many points in the process here.

So what's your future, Ruby?

It's very similar to Kristen's because I've been retired for a long time, and all of the proof that's necessary I have.

And so it's about deciding, when I left there, this year in February, I decided I'd start really getting into speaking the language.

And one of the difficult things is the driving in Italy.

getting a driver's license takes a quite a long time, because you have to learn a whole new set of road rage rules.

And, Christine, Christine has been working on that for a few months now.

And the truth is, I learn a lot from her.

We've walked side by side, literally on walks as she was applying, going through this whole process, figuring out the laws and what she was required.

So I learned everything that I know and need to know already from her and from Marietta.

Remarkable.

Well, Preston writes to say how about tax complications for expats.

He says while there are many more people looking to relocate abroad right now, it seems that some of the practical obstacles would be difficult to overcome, including the financial ones relating to taxes, investments and the like, particularly for those seeking permanent residency or dual citizenship.

That's from Preston.

The Reuters article that I mentioned that came out this weekend says the following quote for those who proceed with moving abroad, there are several visa options.

digital nomads visas for remote workers in countries such as Portugal, Spain and Italy are popular retirement visas, work permits and student visas are also in high demand.

But there are also many hurdles, including the US tax system, which taxes its citizens on worldwide income.

So Preston is noting that he thinks that it just it would be a real tangle financially.

Christine, you touched on that, but do you want to follow up on what would you tell Preston?

Well, I think the one of the things really why a lot of people decide to retire in Italy is the lower cost of living here.

You know, my property taxes in the states were very high.

you know, and here, I own a house by myself, next door to Spino Seco, where we have the seven apartments that I own with Marietta.

And my total property taxes for the year is about $1,500.

Well, now higher because of the, you know, the dollar has dropped so much against the euro, but so I pay about 1500 right there.

That saved me close to 20,000 a year.

based on the taxes that I had in the state.

So, and then, of course, food here is so much less expensive.

Wine is less expensive.

Really, the only thing that's higher is the, cost of mass, probably.

and then regarding the income tax, you can't that you don't the US doesn't tax you twice.

So it's not like I pay taxes in Italy and then I pay taxes in the US.

I still am a U.S. citizen, so I do have to, pay taxes.

But I get credit in the US for the taxes that I've paid in Italy.

So, I do have to pay a percentage of, a very small percentage on worldwide.

income and worldwide assets.

and I don't, you know, you definitely want to work with an accountant on that and go through that and understand it before you make this decision.

but for me, oh, and one of the other thing that's great here is health care.

After I get my residency, which will be in like 45 days, then I could get health care for 2000 a year.

And right now in the States, I'm still paying $675 a month for health care.

And Italian health care is very, very good.

Excellent.

So there's a little bit of an answer there for you, Preston, that kind of paint, the picture of what Kristen has to deal with.

Get an accountant, get somebody who knows what they're doing, have them help you plan for it.

If you're really looking into this, whether it's Italy or elsewhere, or if you want to go and move in with Mariette and Kristen, everyone's going to want to do, Charlie?

Charlie says Evan, our two best friends who had two hugely successful careers, a beautiful house, money in the bank with loads of friends, decided to leave and move to Portugal.

They started the process four years ago, as the political climate in the United States became too polarized for their long term well-being, they jumped through all the required hoops in Portugal.

They bought a house and moved there in October.

And they could not be happier.

They believed they are.

They believe they are better off mentally, emotionally and financially and that the cost of living is much lower.

They too were shocked when Kamala Harris lost.

By the way, my son and his Japanese wife are moving to Japan in July for similar reasons.

His wife does not feel safe here and never leaves the house without her passport.

This is shameful.

That is from Charlie.

Charlie, I thank you for the note.

Yeah, yeah.

Go ahead.

Well, so one of the things, you know, that's we laugh because there's just so little crime here.

There's no crime here.

The only thing you know, we left the pizzeria across the street from us had, 20 stolen.

And that was the big scandal in our town.

You know, it's it's just very, you know, everyone kind of knows each other.

So it's, it you feel very safe.

and I think that's one thing that's, you know, Rochester crime in Rochester has is increased a lot, sadly.

But here you feel safe.

You know, kids walk to school.

It's it's very much a community.

And, Let's, Sorry, I think I forgot where I was going.

That's okay.

Let me ask.

Make safe.

Yeah, yeah.

Marietta, do you feel safe there?

Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

I lived in Amsterdam, in a good neighborhood, I would say.

But, we never close the door here, for instance.

Or you know, I have my bike out without a lock.

I'm not panicking.

In Amsterdam, it would be gone.

And here it's, you know, it's not it's it's in a little, community.

And I think it's also why it's easier to take a distance from the political, the the moral, the the the politics of the country.

Maloney.

Because here it's it's it's sometimes feels like back in the 80s, I sometimes say, also our houses look and shops look sometimes, but also that people are more like, yeah.

Knowing each other, their family from each other, they live here.

So it's it's much more regional here.

It's, it's, it's it's small time.

Yeah.

It's just small living.

I mean, I wouldn't want to live here when I was young, but now it's really comfortable.

Yeah, it's it's it's a good place.

And you really get to know everyone around you.

We're fortunate.

We have three restaurants, right?

Kind of across the street from us.

We're up, up, very high up.

But you just walk down the hill and you're.

You can get to a pizzeria, you can get to, you know, other restaurant.

So you get to know people through going out for a drink.

You're going for dinner at those places.

And so, you know, they know us.

The American and the Dutch woman, the two women that, you know, we're famous mulattos and that's what they haven't taken credit for, even, is that since they've been in Spain.

Oh, seco they've increased the awareness of Spain as circle number one and the commerce that they bring with the visitors that they bring in the times that they go to those restaurants and visit those bars, they there's a lot of talk about how these the Dutch and the American woman are doing so much better and so much good, for the community.

And, you know, they're so busy working that I hear all the whispers, you know, so I can feel and get all of the goodwill that's coming towards them.

That's great, because their whole establishment is one of excellent, you know, top quality.

Everything.

So they've done an excellent job making it a destination place where you'd want to come and spend three months.

And do you think, let me just ask Ruby real briefly here.

I want you to also tell us when you have spent time there.

Do you feel as safe as Christian in Marietta?

Feel, I'm a New Yorker, so at night, I lock my door.

They don't lock the doors.

I mean, they don't lock the doors to anything.

And I'm going around locking the door and taking the key out, and it it's just kind of like, I don't want to be out of the habit when I come back to America, because I'm going to have to close the doors and I'm going to have to lock the windows at night.

And there you don't have to do any of that.

Once Kristen left her purse in the driveway and I picked it up, but I go, this is probably the only fight we've ever had.

And I go, how stupid can you be?

And she's like, nobody's going to take it.

I was like, how do you know that?

You've got workmen everywhere and she said, it's not a problem, and it wasn't a problem.

It's me.

I'm from New York, you know, I would never leave my purse in the driveway.

And we've got repairmen, we've got contractors, we've got people coming and going, but they're the most, I think, safe.

It's the most safe place that I've been.

Because you have to remember, we walk in the woods, we walk every place, and there's hardly another soul there.

Us and the dogs.

Marietta, you were saying.

Oh, I know, I was saying that the connection with the locals was not established, like, right away.

We really had to work for that, too.

And and on our property, we have, the ruins of a castle, and it was totally overgrown.

And we decided to invest money and cut away all the, the green, like all those problems, scrub shrubs and shrubs and.

Yeah, and we did that.

And then the whole village walked out and said, oh, we're so happy we see the castello again.

And and that's how you and you know, we now this weekend we have people that come from the community, which is like the, the municipality and they have this exchange and they asked us if we could have people from them for it's a city in France.

So they're having some people from that city coming and staying here and.

Yeah.

and we were more than welcome to be more than happy to, to help out.

but and we do that for free.

So we give you know, we give also back to the community.

I think it's, it's part of community.

You have to be.

And you started to learn the language, you know, and they really help you with the beginning to babble.

But yeah, we the first year we were here, after our one year anniversary of being here, we had a it was in January, which isn't the most busy time here, but we had a party for everybody in our village at the bar across the street.

It's really kind of a funny little bar, but you had probably 65, 70 people show up and we they could have all the wine, all the beer they wanted to drink.

They could have.

There was little bites of food and things like that.

And it cost us 300, $300 for like three hours drinking.

That's what they it was really nice.

And the townspeople got together and got a big flower arrangement for us.

And so it's it's just a wonderful place.

Amazing.

I love it there.

you can even find it in Google Maps now under Spino Seco.

There it is there.

And, we have so.

Yeah.

Well, that's a so, Ariel writes to us on the YouTube chat.

She says, FYI, if New Yorkers want to get dual citizenship in one of the countries mentioned on this program, folk should know that they should expect to wait at least eight months for long form birth certificates.

This is partly due to a backlog left over from the lockdown in early 2020, because these records are not digitized and must be searched through by hand, and also because of the explosion of ancestry sites, there is no way to expedite the process to get these documents, so people need to be aware that it's not a quick thing.

That's from Ariel.

Good advice there.

Very good.

Let me get Neely's email, Neely Rice to the program to say I love the topic.

Today, I'm admittedly envious of spending 180 days a year in Italy.

We lived in Copenhagen for one year, and frankly, the Danish immigration system makes it very difficult.

Although once we got through that, my spouse had a research sabbatical opportunity there.

It was fantastic.

My children were in seventh and eighth grade at the time, and we had an incredible time.

So much so that my oldest daughter is transferring from university in California to a university in the Netherlands, where she will finish her university degree there.

There are many very high quality English programs in the Netherlands, and the cost is a fraction of US university prices.

Although housing is very challenging, she will very likely stay in Europe.

The quality of life, commitment to universal health care, public transportation options and diversity of cultures in a relatively small geographic area are just some of the reasons why she wants to finish her degree in Europe, and my understanding is that the Netherlands wants their foreign students to stay and work.

It's why they invest in the educational degree programs in English.

Thank you for today's program.

That's from Neelie.

What do you think of that?

Marietta well, yeah, I think I said it also in Amsterdam.

It's beautiful city to study.

I think it's, I don't know if the Netherlands are so open to new people with the government we have now, but it was, how it was before and maybe still is, because it's still going on like that.

It's very international.

city Amsterdam became very international.

Yes.

but I can imagine that you, that's studying abroad when you studied abroad, especially in America, by the way.

Yes.

Patrick writes to say this hour is brought to you by the Italian Ministry of Travel.

Well, no, they're not underwriting it, but they should, I listen, Patrick, that's one of my great biases in life.

One of the happiest things you can do is being the Italian countryside.

And we're talking to people who live there.

So, yes, my my envy is probably just pouring through the program today, although we do have some people who have asked if our guests feel that as citizens of the United States during this hard time, is there a responsibility to stay here to deal with the challenges here, to try to help this country?

And I'm going to ask Ruby a little bit about that.

Ruby's like, no, no, absolutely no responsibility to stay.

No, no, this country has had ample opportunity, to provide for its citizens and all walks of life.

And it's failed to do that.

And I think because as citizens, we choose to do something else.

It's not a slap against America.

It's a choice for us.

And that's what we're all fighting and living for is choices in life.

So I go to Italy to spend that time because it it feel so much better than America at this point.

You know, it's it's safe, it's peaceful, it's beautiful.

I mean, it's healthier at this point than it is in America psychologically and physically.

So, no, I don't feel an obligation to continue to send my money to either the Democrats or the Republic and to fight with each other and not do better for the country.

Kristen, what do you think?

I you know, a lot of people ask me, don't you miss America, especially people here in Europe?

They're like, I don't you miss America?

And you know, I don't miss America.

I don't miss Rochester.

I don't miss, there's, you know, sure, there's some things that are, you know, we have Wegmans and then in Rochester, but, it's I miss my friends and my family, and that that has been some somewhat difficult.

I do try to go home a few times a year and spend quality time with them, but do I feel like I owe anything to America?

No.

I'm 64 years old.

I paid my dues, and right now this isn't the America I knew or ever wanted the way it is right now.

So as we get ready to wrap up here, Kristen, what would you leave with listeners who really are starting to think more seriously for whatever reason?

Again, as as I said at the top here, and I hope people have heard this is not an hour about politics, although I understand that whatever your politics are, that might occasionally drive your thoughts about where you want to spend your future.

But what would you say to anyone for any reason thinking about it?

you know who wants to put that train on the track?

Kristen, I think you need to go and visit, you know, places, take advantage of that three month period that you can be out of the states and be in Europe.

And if you're, you know, deciding between places, for instance, you know, we have, apartments, you can come and stay in one of our apartments for one month, two months, three months, or you stay a month here.

You stay a month down in the Amalfi coast of Italy.

You stay a month in Spain somewhere.

It's the best way.

You can't just pop in and out for a few days in a location.

You really have to, you know, go to the farmer's market.

Yeah.

Feel it.

I mean, we felt it with, you know, Mariana felt it before we even went inside the property we built or bought.

So, you have to have that feeling, and you can't just do it by, you know, doing, these trips that people do where you visit five different cities in Italy in seven days, you know, you really got to live there.

Yeah.

And so that would be my advice would be definitely travel to the places you're thinking you might be interested and stay for a while.

Go grocery shopping, sit at the cafe and drink coffee, get to know the community a little bit and you'll know very quickly if people are friendly or welcoming to you.

and we found even we we have a magical place and we are very fortunate.

And we also where sometimes we had a place that we didn't that didn't feel good.

That house is beautiful, but it didn't feel good.

Yeah.

We looked at the properties we looked at.

There were things about everyone that we didn't choose that, you know, it was very easy to to make a decision and, and, you know, we didn't even know each other.

So to both agree on a place together and, and, you know, be able to run this business together, it's been, kind of an amazing thing.

It definitely is nice to do it with somebody else, because Marietta's great at things that I'm really bad at, and I'm really good at things that she's really bad at.

And so we are able to balance each other.

we live separately, which is important, but we're we're here on the property taking care of everything, you know, and our stuff.

It's an amazing story.

Spinoza Espinosa Eco in northern Tuscany.

If anyone wants to check it out, maybe go see Kristen in Marietta and immerse for a while.

You might even see Ruby when you're there.

You know, possibly.

When's your next trip?

Ruby?

I can't tell.

You can't tell?

No, because my days are numbered.

I'm going to Spain and Portugal for three weeks, so I can't decide until I see how my that's part of my time.

It's been such a joy to talk to you.

Thank you.

I appreciate you coming in here.

Ruby.

It's been a great pleasure to be here.

Thank you.

That's Ruby Lockhart and Kristen and Marietta.

Great luck that you'll have what's been Prosecco.

Hope you hope you're drinking a good bottle of.

I was going to say Brunello, but wherever whatever's local tonight.

Well, with Brunello is definitely a favorite of ours.

And we'll.

We hope you come to visit us.

Please come visit.

Thanks, everyone.

We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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