From WXXI News.

This is connections.

I'm Julie Phillip, filling in for Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in March of 1964 when Jim Thompson, a Green Beret officer, was shot down and captured by the Viet Cong.

He would spend the next 3278 days, almost nine years, as a prisoner of war.

He was tortured, starved, and for much of his captivity isolated from other Americans.

Somehow Thompson survived.

He came home in March 1973, but by then home was a very different place.

During the time he had been imprisoned, American society had started an enormous shift toward women's liberation and civil rights.

This was the era of Woodstock the Beatles miniskirts, the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr and John F Kennedy, and growing anti-war protests that were often aimed at those coming back from Vietnam.

And Thompson's actual home, the one where his wife and four children were, had changed as well.

While his life was at a standstill in the jungles of Vietnam, their lives had moved on without him.

In 2002, composer Tom Cipullo read about Thompson in a book called Glory Denied by Tom Philpott.

Cipullo then wrote an opera based on that story, and now Finger Lakes Opera is preparing to perform it later this month.

The organization has a partner to the Veterans Outreach Center, and here to talk about all of this.

We have Tom Cipullo on teams.

He's the composer of Glory Denied.

And in studio we have Brock Tjosvold, Finger Lakes Opera's head of music and conductor for the July 19th performance.

We have Loni Wellman, director of programs at the Veterans Outreach Center, and we have Tom Williams, a local Vietnam veteran.

Thank you so much, all of you, for joining me here today.

And, of course, we invite listeners to call in or email questions and comments during the show.

You can do that by calling 263-9994 or emailing us at connections@wxxi.org.

So I'd like to begin with you, Tom.

So people who are less familiar with opera, myself included, tend to think of that opera as sort of these sweeping romantic stories that are not necessarily true.

We've got Carmen, La Boheme, Madame Butterfly, that sort of thing.

And while I know that art is often a form of social commentary, I don't think of opera.

And this is probably my own ignorance.

I don't think of that as a main tenet of opera.

So before we get into the specifics of Glory Denied, could you talk about how you view the role of opera in providing commentary about serious social and cultural issues, and how common it is to use a true story, a biography, when creating a score?

Tom.

Sure.

Well, first, let me tell you that it's a pleasure to be with you today.

Over the past two decades, opera has really been in the forefront of, commenting on social justice issues.

As a matter of fact, almost every contemporary opera now has to have some issue of of social importance and relevance to today's life.

When I began writing this piece in 2001, it wasn't that way, most of which were based on great novels of the past.

But, I didn't want to do that.

I didn't want to do great novels in the past.

I wanted to do something relevant.

So, on the face of it, it's kind of crazy.

You know, people don't go through their lives singing, but somehow, one thing I know, I'm sure of, and I hope your listeners will agree, is that opera, music in general has the ability to enhance and amplify your emotions.

And it also is a great way of creating empathy.

So, with those things, because it touches your emotions so deeply, it can help you to feel what other people are feeling.

And so it is a very, I think, fine vehicle for social commentary.

And so what was it?

You pick up the book, you read the book.

What was it about his story that made you decide, especially in a time when when biographies as operas were not their common if if they'd been done at all?

I don't know.

But what made you what inspired you to start writing?

Well, I'm about to turn 70 this year.

I was born in 1956, and I think for anyone of my generation or a little bit before or a little bit after, the defining event of our lives was the Vietnam War.

I'm not I didn't serve.

I wasn't in the military.

I want to make that clear.

But that war impacted the whole country.

And the counterculture, which it spawned, continues to affect our country today.

Do your own thing.

The whole idea of do your own thing of mistrust, of government, a million other issues that came out of of that era.

So it really spoke to me and, it really brought back issues that were important to me.

And I find that the younger generation knows very little about the 1960s and 70s.

And if they did, I think they would have a lot more optimism about the current political strife we go through in our country.

Because as as divided as we may be now as a nation, I can tell you, in the 1960s we were even more divided.

So I think there's hope to come back.

Okay, okay.

So Barack is head of music for the Finger Lakes Opera.

Could you talk a little bit about the decision to to tackle this opera?

I think it premiered.

Tom, correct me if I'm wrong.

In 2007.

And what makes it relevant now here in the Rochester area?

Sure.

So just to talk a little bit about, the piece kind of before we even selected it.

You know, it's difficult for a living composer to get, an opera that really has legs and sticks in the repertoire while they're still here.

You know, and in classical music, a lot of times, we don't really appreciate the work, so they don't really enter the canon until, after the composer's gone.

So even, you know, even if you didn't know the opera that well yourself, it's, a great example of a modern work that's really grown legs in today's music, music world.

And so that's an incredible thing and of itself.

And I think that really speaks to how the opera influences people.

We are seeing performances of it all over the place.

And so, it was always kind of in our awareness.

Stephanie Havey, the artistic director, and I, we've known of the piece.

We know known excerpts from the piece.

And so I've always loved the music.

But then even more importantly, when we got into the story, it became really clear how incredibly thought out Tom's setting of this story was and how effective it really is, and showing such a long progression of a person's life who's been through so much, in a way that I think opera captures really beautifully.

And so it seemed like the right time, you know, when you're thinking about the 250th anniversary of the United States to tell a story that's really, connected to our country and people in our community?

And, yeah, it's just the timing felt right.

It's an incredible piece.

And so we jumped in.

So you jumped on and.

Okay.

And then, Lonnie, how did you and others at the Veterans Outreach Center react when you get a call from the Finger Lakes Opera?

And they asked if you would collaborate?

I'm guessing you don't get that kind of call every single day.

Not every day.

No, we do get a lot of calls from folks in the community, you know, wanting us like, hey, you know, we've got a program.

We'd like some veterans involved.

But the way that, Finger Lakes Opera approached us was very refreshing, and we knew that they were there was a good care to telling the story and making sure that the story was being told, and not in a way that would retraumatize anybody that lived through it or lived through other conflicts.

When they approached us, they actually wanted us to, supply, for the lack of a better word.

A couple of our staff, one of them as our behavioral health manager, who's going to be there during the show in case there is any triggering moments for any of the veterans that would be an audience, they can step back and talk with him.

And we also have a cultural liaison who's, one of my care managers at Veterans Outreach Center.

Just, you know, somebody to check and make sure that we are, you know, doing this in the right light, in the right reasons.

So talk a little bit more about how the collaboration between the two organizations worked.

What was you know, what was prioritized when you were working together and what does it look like.

Well, really I mean I on my end I definitely the, the prioritization felt like it was it was safety and correctness.

So making sure that the information that was being presented was correct, but also safe for any of the veterans that would be an audience or even, being around making sure that there is different, you know, supports available.

And so, you know, when that kind of came across the desk, it was like, absolutely.

If anybody in the community wants to make things more safe for our veterans who have experienced some very traumatic, conflicts and wars, we're always going to be on board with that.

So they really I'd like to say Finger Lakes offers the one that reached out.

They are the ones that have been championing this, and we're just very happy and lucky that they, chose to partner with us so that we can, you know, make sure that everybody's taken care of.

How worried were you that this could trauma retraumatize people in the audience or in the community?

You know, I don't know that I would say worried necessarily, but I think wanting to be sensitive to is maybe a better approach.

I mean, I think that we wanted to make sure, there's enough support there.

But also that people go into it knowing that you know, art isn't only just for pure entertainment.

Right?

Artists there to make us think, to reflect, to move forward.

And so I think we just wanted to be prepared, you know, and wanted to be able to support anyone's experience through that.

It's also one thing that is just in the process now of starting.

Trevor, who's the cultural liaison that Lonnie was talking about, he will come to rehearsal some.

And he's also been a great resource for our artistic director, Stephanie, who's staging the show, because there are things such as he refers over and over to his bracelet.

He talks a lot about the letters with his family.

You know, there are little things here and there that we wanted to be able to kind of step back with someone who's been in the service and be able to kind of unpack with our performers.

What would this have really meant to someone who's been a prisoner of war for ten years?

You know, I think in our generation today, like letters barely exist right now to most of us in our modern day life.

You know, so we as a younger generation and coming to this piece, we might see that and it might not totally land how we think of a letter, you know, for example.

So having someone like Trevor with the VFC for our performers as well, going in, it just adds this whole layer of sensitivity and authenticity to serve Jim's story.

When we see it on stage.

And we have a veteran, a Vietnam veteran here with us today, Tom Williams.

And I understand, it's been 58 years, almost to the day when you headed to Vietnam.

And and so are you familiar?

You were brought in a little bit on the last minute.

So I'm not quite sure your role in this production, but how familiar are you with the opera and, how concerned are you about the safety of those veterans who might see it or hear about it?

Well, I just came in to the to the, arena here without much warning.

So you and I are in the same boat here?

I did I did read his, outline and Google, which it sounds pretty much like the one you introduced.

As far as being concerned about the veterans.

I hadn't really given it a thought, but I'm happy to hear that the sensitivity is there.

I always preface when I talk about my service, that I had very good duty.

I was not a foot soldier.

I was, I did casualty reporting.

And I respect all my brothers that that served in more difficult times than me.

As far as myself, I am not concerned that I will have any kind of flashback or anything, but I know people that that would, would or could.

Okay.

Okay.

So I want to go back to, our composer, Tom, and read a quote from Chris Davis, who is writing a review of Glory Denied in The Memphis Flier when the opera was performed in that city.

And he wrote, Watching opera Memphis is minimal but mighty.

Production of Tom Polo's Vietnam era, one act Glory Denied is like being clobbered by angels and dumped in a freezing river of 1970s pop culture.

Tom, what did you think of that reaction, and is that kind of what you're hoping for, what you're going for?

When when you wrote this and put it out there?

I loved that review.

And I think that the entire review from the Memphis.

If you, if you really got to the point where I was trying to catch up to the 60s and 70s, that was my era after all, my formative era.

So I'm glad you made reference to that.

But, upper wants to be emotional.

That's what it wants to do.

So, for him to have that reaction, I think is a great thing.

What I wanted to do, what I wrote, it was, was to be, respectful, to try and heal and and to be accurate.

And I'm very lucky.

Tom Philpott, who wrote the book, you know, interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people to get this remarkable story.

And the story is amazing.

I mean, there's so many ironies in this story and just the fact, you know, Brad mentioned the bracelet.

How unusual is it?

Or how maddening is it that the P.O.W., who was held the longest in American history, never had a bracelet made with his name on it?

You know, in those days.

Many people who had the bracelets with the names appeared to remember them.

He, the longest held, never had one made because his wife would not allow it.

And so when he got home and he found that out, that was a remarkable, painful experience for this man to have to go through.

That's just one of the many details that I found so compelling and, and that I wanted to bring to light.

I wanted to tell his story and the story of his family, because we forget how much military families suffer, how much they sacrifice, how much they give up, but how difficult it is for them.

That was my impetus.

How difficult?

I mean, the book is a it's a pretty long book, and B it's not linear.

It's not like this happened.

Then this happened and this happened.

It's it's first person accounts from all these different people.

There's a loose, you know, line in chronological order to it.

But how difficult was it to take a book like that and create an opera from it?

That makes sense and, and hits the audience with the details, like the bracelet in it, in a way that Bill understand, and they'll feel.

Well, I was lucky because Tom Phillips book is really well done.

I just cut out cut out so many things.

But I kept a good portion of his structures in little bits and kept it, kept it that way.

You know, I find working in a nonlinear jumping around the story.

And, this is the first opera I ever wrote.

I had no idea what I was doing, really, but, But it's amazing.

I believe very strongly in trusting your audience, trusting your audience, believing that they're smart, that they will follow where you have to give them a lot of credit.

They'll be right with you if you're given the music that tells them where you're going underneath it all, they'll understand everything how it jumps around, it's it jumps around in time over this great span of years.

But people tell me and I'm going to believe them, that it's not hard to follow it all.

Yeah.

And it is very critically acclaimed I do have to say.

So I think you, you are on to something there.

So you know this has been performed all over the country.

It's received critical acclaim not just for the message but the composition itself because.

So so let's talk about the structure, how you tell the story of Thompson and his family in this opera.

There's four singing roles, correct?

Correct.

There are four singing roles.

There are.

And to an extent, this piece is about memory as well as about the war, because Colonel Thompson, during his nine years, could only survive by remembering and idealizing his wife and family and he just thought they were the greatest things on earth.

And if only he could get back to them, that kept him alive as well as, as as building a house for them all to live on in his mind, constructing every detail of it.

Conversely, his wife, the way she coached, the way she survived, was sticking to the marriage was never good anyway, and that she didn't really love him.

Where was the truth?

It had to be in the middle, somewhere between the two of them.

So they were.

I decided to create two versions of his wife, Alice, a young one in love with an idealized, an older one who was going through all this trauma and and all these events.

Then when I had two of her, I decided, well, you know, I, I really need two of Colonel Thompson, a young and an old, to make the ensembles work.

It was just like a calculated choice because, I wanted to have four voices work together.

But happily, somehow, dramatically, it seemed to work.

So for singing parts and an old and a young of each, of of of Jim Thompson and his wife Alice, and they go back and forth.

Okay.

And so I think we have a clip from the first part of glory tonight, which is focused on his captivity in his time in Vietnam and what was going through his head.

And I think it features his older and younger self and Alice's older and younger self.

And I think we can play a little bit of it.

Everyone has their own sense of.

Right.

And we, you know.

I feel people stop to think about it.

It's just.

Again, the reason I had time to sit and to relaunch, in one sense of my.

Feelings came out of my son comes up and he swings.

Large enough for.

I could remember the names of the last verses from the I. Last words you.

Or, Responses.

The 23rd.

Song took on a. New thing I had none.

Of.

Audrey Godfrey is one is my Christ I was born it.

Takes me I now in precursors.

Maybe okay.

And I think that was a pretty good example of how you mixed the the older self.

And then the younger self came in.

We are going to take a quick break, but when we come back I want to talk about the challenge of that and what it's been like working with the performers to do that.

So when we come back, we will continue our conversation with Tom Cipolla, composer of Glory Denied, Brock Jazz Fold from Finger Lakes Opera, Lonnie Wellman from the Veterans Outreach Center, and Vietnam veteran Tom Williams.

We'll be right back.

Coming up in our second hour.

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I think they're called to the moon, and I'm going to try one of the hottest in the world, and it's not going to go, well, that's next hour.

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And you're listening to connections.

I am Julie Phillips sitting in for Evan Dawson, and we've been talking with Tom Sapelo, composer of Glory Denied, Brock Chesterfield from the Finger Lakes Opera, Lonnie Wellman from the Veterans Outreach Center.

And Vietnam veteran Tom Williams.

Before the break, we heard a little bit of the opera.

I'm.

And you'll have to tell me who the who did that recording, but, it showed how the older Jim Thompson blends with the younger Jim Thompson, and they do the same thing with the wife, Alice.

And you also alluded to earlier the difficulty of, you know, you yourself are young, the performers are young, did not go through this experience personally.

So to make it as authentic as you can, you've had to do a lot of work.

So could you talk to me about who?

You know, who the performers are?

What?

How challenging it was for them to not only sing the parts, but convey the meanings behind the parts.

You know how you did Tom?

Thompson story justice.

Bringing it to life.

Sure.

Well, one thing that's going to be really, really interesting, is our lead of older Thompson is Ben Ed Quest.

Who's actually in The Singing Sergeants?

So he actually is in the military currently, and will be joining us.

He's done this role several times pre military career, as a singer.

And we believe I think this is going to be his first time singing the role since being in the military.

So we're all really excited to see what that experience is like for him and what how maybe his relationship with that role has grown.

And working with the other performers, our, our, younger Thompson is Luke Hurst, who's one of our young artists, our older Alice is Daniella Brancato, and our younger Alice is Hannah Moreno, who actually lives in Rochester.

And those are all young artists.

That are going to come be a part of our program for the summer.

And, you know, I think it's a testament to Tom, to Paolo's work because, the nonlinear way of telling this story, it has such an impact when you can hear, like, the memory, the idealized memory of younger Alice in Thompson's head, juxtaposed right next to the reality of older Alice, and the trauma and the resentment and, it lands in a very, very different way than if we only get younger, Alice at the beginning and we get older.

Alice at the end.

Right.

So you're seeing this juxtaposition and, I think it really clarifies the experience in a way that you couldn't do otherwise.

To have these two opposing views of the same person over time conflicting in the music, you know, it it's kind of the power of opera that I think you can't do in any other art form.

I think that, the musical construction of that allows something that we can't really accomplish otherwise.

And working with the Veterans Hall, which I know you yourself might not have personally been involved with the performers, but what are some of the.

I know you talked about letters making sure they understood what and the bracelet.

What are some of the things that were important for the veterans, Outreach Center to convey to these young artists?

Well, I think a lot of it, you know, we mentioned Trevor, who's like the liaison.

He actually was in, the Gulf, and he actually did exchange letters.

He's a few years younger than I am.

So he's had that experience.

And so being able to even transfer the experience from 1960s, early 70s into what would have been like the early, late aughts, 2020 tens, you know, it is a transferable experience.

So being able to at least put one foot in history and one foot in the present and realize that it's pretty close can be just even when it comes to how people think behave.

Humans are going to be humans throughout history and when put in that kind of place.

So being able to say this isn't a piece of history, but it's still part of the present and can possibly be revisited in the future, it's, probably something to be conveyed to the performers that it's not.

You're not just singing a history book, you're singing something that is, is is the time, you know, and being and and being able to find that, that commonality.

I mentioned Trevor, I think after one of the meetings he all had, he came into my office and stated, you know, I remember mailing my wife letters.

All we could get were letters and her letters to me just being so mundane and, oh, well, the kids went to school and somebody came by, mowed the yard while he's out in in in the arena, dealing with some really terrible stuff every single day.

And how he, in that moment, you know, doesn't bring that back to his wife and in letter form because he wants to embrace the good of what that's the good that he has in his life.

And, you know, being able to to see that that's something that again, transfers time is well, well interpreted.

And to Tom, you said at the very beginning that in a way this piece offers some optimism in this day and age because people who did not live through the 60s and 70s don't understand that there was as much, if not more turmoil than there is today.

And out of that turmoil came many wonderful things.

The striving for civil rights, gay rights, women's rights.

That did not come easy.

There were riots in the streets in the you know, I wrote of what I wrote a piece called American 1968 years ago.

And if you think about 1968, my goodness, there were two assassinations that rocked the country, Doctor King and Robert Kennedy.

And, men landing on the moon, of course, which was a wonderful, sensational achievement.

But the Tet Offensive in Vietnam and, so many other think riots at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago.

So, you know, it helps to know history.

History is a great source of strength.

And if you can look back on it, it's a wonderful thing.

And this, this era, I just have to say one more word.

You know, Colonel Thompson was captured in 1964.

He came home in 1973.

If you look at our high school yearbook from 1964, all the boys are in these, suits and jackets, white shirts and ties, crew cuts.

All the women have the little black dress and strand of pearls.

They all look exactly the same.

If you look at a high school yearbook from 1973, it's completely different.

Everybody looks different.

Colonel Thompson must have thought he was coming back to Mars.

So.

And I can't imagine a time in history where nine years changed so much.

And, it's good for young people to know about that.

And that is in the opera and in the book, the his reaction when he got home and it was Mars miniskirts.

My goodness.

Micro miniskirts.

It was, a whole different ballgame to come back to a new permissiveness that really rocked him.

But then he adapted to it and loved it, late in his life.

What's not to love about sports?

Right.

So.

So, I know you haven't haven't seen the opera, but you've read the outline, so, you know, Thompson and his family underwent some pretty severe trauma.

That affected them for the rest of their lives.

So how does that experience compare with, veterans?

I don't get to talk to you, too, Loni.

That you or you come into contact with every single day here in Rochester, what was what was his experience like compared to people here?

I'd like to talk about the letters.

The letters were so important every day.

Every day I wrote letters and letters and letters.

Because if you didn't write letters, we didn't get any back.

And mail call was what we waited for every day.

It was one of the most important things of our daily lives.

When when you when you received a letter, did it strike you as mundane as, like, oh, this is not.

This is not something I can fully relate to.

And so some of the letters.

Yes.

And another thing you mentioned that spurred a memory for me, it's I just lost my youngest brother and he was nine years old when I went.

And he has recently, we had talked recently before he passed about.

I asked him about the brownies and I said, do you remember the brownies?

And he started to cry, and and what they would do is they baked brownies in, you know, brownie pan.

And he and my mother would take, the coffee can and stamp out the brownies, and then they would wrap the brownies in, Saran wrap and put them back in the cans to mail them to me.

And he told me that he and my mother and my mother would have them all baked, and he would not allow her to stamp them out until he got home from school.

He also related to me, the way my parents were reacting while I was gone.

My father wouldn't let anybody talk during the evening news.

And again, I was in a safe place, but they had no idea what it looked like other than pictures that I had sent them.

And just different things that he told me that he would sit on the front steps and just cry.

He how?

He was so worried about me again.

He was nine years old.

It was a traumatic time for him.

For me, it was just going to work every day, you know?

And they didn't know that.

Right?

They didn't know.

That.

First of all, I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you.

It sounds like you were close, even though you were quite far apart in age.

Did you find yourself having to, hold back when you wrote a letter so that you didn't cause additional worry?

Oh, yes.

I never told them that I was doing perimeter guard every fourth night.

The whole year.

That was the most dangerous thing I think I did all year is, to be out on the on the line of the the of the perimeter of the the base camp that I was on and be right in front of the, rows and rows of concertina wire and half at my, at my hands grenades and claim our minds and a rifle and, the responsibility of keeping the camp safe.

There was probably a bunker every hundred feet.

And we, you know, I had people on either side of me.

I wasn't totally alone.

And there was three people in the bunker, and, you know, some some nights we were up all night because there was a full alert and some nights we were one third alert.

We always hoped for one third alert because it was tough to be up all night.

And then we had to go to work in the morning.

So.

Yeah, that's a little bit different than making brownies.

It's a little.

Different in the kitchen.

So, Lanny, in your experience at the Veterans Outreach Center, you know, Jim Thompson was the longest held prisoner of war, and he went through some very, very traumatic stuff.

But, are there comparable experiences right here in Rochester?

Well, sure.

Yeah.

I mean, Veterans Outreach Center exists because Vietnam veterans were coming back to Rochester area and they were not getting the supports that they needed.

You know, looking back at history, there was, you know, very, very contentious time and a lot of people were upset with the government and took them out on the soldiers who are returning.

So, you know, they go in thinking, you know, we're doing this for our country.

And then they come back and, you know, find me that kind of wall of of disdain.

And so Veterans Outreach Center exists because a group of guys and gals who served in Vietnam got together and created that space for themselves.

And so the original house is still there on South Avenue, where we exist, we just kind of cobbled some extra buildings onto it.

And they're still very involved.

But because of that, you know, that lack of care, you know, and then a lot that we see with our veterans as if they're not if they don't come back and it's not there, they're going to make it themselves.

A lot of the services we have at Veterans Outreach Center, half of our job is, convincing the veterans that it's for them to use and to take, we find that veterans are always going to be caring for other people and wanting to help others.

And we'll often hear that's for somebody else.

Leave that for somebody else.

And so a lot of that is because of that service that they put put forth.

And then coming back, I think a lot of times as, the, different types of arenas have changed, we definitely see a different, issues that come forth.

But also we are getting better in terms of naming things in behavioral health, things that happened in World War One.

You know, that was shellshock.

That's PTSD now, possibly chronic PTSD.

So we're also being able to identify things where maybe the veterans coming back had to deal with on their own because there weren't words to to name it and describe it.

But we find that creating that community and having that community is the first step.

So, you know, at VOC, we've got different support groups, we've got a hiking group.

We'll hike in the winter.

But having all these different supports so that, veterans can kind of find their place in that and not only get support, but then they get to create support for other veterans coming home.

Tom Sipple this sounds like a pretty great collaboration here between the Finger Lakes Opera and the Veterans Outreach Center.

Your opera has played, I believe, in, at least 40.

I don't remember the number offhand, but many different, locales.

Have you seen, similar collaborations in the communities where the opera has played?

Yes, as a matter of fact, opera company, sometimes, take it to untraditional places.

And, in Des Moines, they did it on a National Guard base.

In Colorado, they did it at the Air Force Academy.

And so that makes for a, an interesting experience.

And sometimes it's done on Veterans Day in the community, but often have a really rich production, you know, opera companies, they want to be part of the community, they want to reach out and they want to do good, and they want to, they just want to be a vibrant part of the community.

So, I often find this and, often, there are many, many veterans in the audience, if I may, one of the most proud experiences I've ever had is a composer was when, a gentleman seeing this show, and there was a talkback afterwards and he stood up, and an older man, and he started to talk about his experiences in Vietnam.

And a couple minutes later, his wife stood up and said, he's never talked to me about any of these things.

This seeing this tonight.

This brought it out of him, what he had been keeping inside of him all these years.

So that was, that was a great moment for me and for that particular opera company.

I don't remember which company it was, but, it was, very powerful.

And that was going to be my next question.

Who is the audience for this.

You said there are a lot of veterans in the, in the audiences.

Well I ended up at an opera.

The audience will always be mostly opera lovers because they're sort of addicted to the art form.

And they, they hockey fans have don't rival opera.

They're brave.

So that will always be and particularly people who like contemporary opera, they will be largely in the audience.

But we've been fortunate to have, depending on the production, lots and lots of, lots of veterans come see the show.

It's interesting, I think, that, very often men and women have completely different reactions to the characters in the show.

And at first, you know, when I was writing this opera, at first, I did not like one of the characters that I wrote in the show.

I just as a person, as a being, and I only came to understand her midway through the composition.

But, a lot of times men watching the show will say the character of older adults is awful, and how could she try and have her husband declared dead?

Whereas the women will say, you know what, if I had four children, the last born on the day my husband was captured and I didn't know what was going to happen to our family and my husband to be gone for nine years and was probably dead.

I could have done that too.

So, it's interesting to watch that dynamic at play.

Yeah, especially in an era when women couldn't work.

You didn't have the support systems and everything to take care of children for nine years without knowing where your husband was.

So who do you hope to see in the audience?

Do you think this will expand?

Your typical Finger Lakes Opera audience?

Yeah, I would hope so.

I think we've talked a lot about, you know, younger generations, for example, like, this is such recent history.

But before, when many of us were alive.

And so, we want to be able to show this experience to all, ages as well.

So I think, you know, one of the, the audiences that we're really hoping will come out to see this is younger people to be able to appreciate this experience, this point in time in our country, and also recognize how relevant it is today and how it really wasn't that long ago.

And that we're still experiencing many of these issues today and do appreciate how far we've come.

Like Lani said, you know, there were not a lot of resources.

And in many ways, the Vietnam War was the impetus for finding more of these resources, you know?

So, this exact moment we're portraying in the opera is exactly why we have the VOC in Rochester.

You know, it's a a really direct connection right there.

So, I'd say it's for everyone, but of course, you know, we hope that it can be maybe cathartic in a way for veterans.

We hope that it can be educational.

And, challenge a new sense of empathy and knowledge, from people who aren't veterans.

Have you looked at what's happening in other communities when this plays out?

Are you familiar with?

I know we'll get into this a little bit.

The panel discussion that's going to be held here, but have you, experienced this in other communities or talk to people about what happens after the show?

I haven't myself with this show.

This will be my first time being a part of a production in the whole show.

But I have seen, you know, just to give you an example, a couple of years ago, we, premiered an opera called Two Corners that, was referencing the civil rights era.

And we had a talkback of one of the workshop performances, sort of before the show opened.

And that was kind of my first experience, really.

Well, I shouldn't say first experience, but one of my few first experiences of really hearing an audience reaction to something that's happening within our lifetime.

And so it was really moving and encouraging and, you know, I think I would I would say that what many people don't give opera credit for is that it really is and always has been of its time.

It's easy for us now to think back to Mozart and say like, oh, it's Mozart.

What are these stories?

They don't relate now?

Well, you know, the other production we're doing this summer, the Marriage of Figaro, it's all about, you know, the servant class and how they are real people with real love and real brains, fighting back against, you know, being oppressed by people who think they're above them.

And so.

So you think that's relevant?

Yeah, I would say so.

And I think and especially for the time, you know, that's that's what I mean.

It's like these stories always come out to serve the people of the time.

And yes, the style of music is something that's in its own realm.

You know, we we qualify genres and styles, but really it's all about storytelling.

And it always has been.

And it's always been of the time.

Content will continue to always be of the time.

And I think that's what's so beautiful about it.

So I think it will speak to a lot of people.

And it's in English.

And it's in English and it's in English and still with titles, so you can read along as well, and understand what's going on.

All right.

So do you think, veterans will go?

Yes.

We have been, speaking with our, with our clients, but also just out in the community.

Definitely have an interest.

We've got a lot of folks that are excited about it coming, really excited about the partnership.

And just being, you know, like I said, the one thing that blew me away was, you know, a lot of times veterans can be lumped into a, a group of just veterans, and nobody really can look at them as individual humans and being able to, take an entire opera to look at an individual human veteran, but also reacting to each one of them is, I think, makes people want to be a part of it and want to go.

So I absolutely do think you're going to see veterans in the audience.

And then also additionally, I know that you guys, Finger Lakes Opera has been doing a really great job of spreading our information.

So if there are veterans that need to know resources that are there, they can stop by anytime that they need to.

So I think it's a real good symbiotic relationship.

And you said people will be on hand in case there is some PTSD, PTSD or anything, but how likely is the possibility that not even a traumatic reaction?

But as Tom was talking, you know, a woman got up and said, this is the first time my husband has talked about this.

How likely do you think that is?

I know there's a panel discussion after, and there's a possibility someone will stand up.

So I think very likely not necessarily in terms of like a total, you know, issue where they would need like medical help, but being able to I think a lot of folks might feel like their story is they're the only ones that experienced it.

And, you know, being able to see that there were other people that suffered in different ways helps open up the door.

I mentioned that we do a lot of different groups.

One of our groups, we do, out at a campfire every Thursday, and they sit around the campfire and, it's probably Tuesday, so check our calendar.

But, you know, that's where it's not clinical, but that's where the stories start getting shared.

And it might not be shared.

The first time somebody shows up, it might be shared.

The 10th time they show up, they start dipping their toes.

And can I share my truth without being judged?

And when they find in a place like this and a place like Finger Lakes Opera, when they are really being conscientious of what the story and how powerful the story is, you know, they're going to feel that comfort.

And again, whether it happens that day, ten days down the road, a year, we can't tell that.

But there's definitely there's a power of community, especially with folks who are marginalized and may feel like their story is not worth being shared.

And Tom Williams, our Vietnam veteran, are you going?

Yeah.

Yes, I am.

Oh, I know it's hard to know how you're going to react, but, what kind of is this?

The kind of place where you think you might stir up some memories.

You might, have an emotional.

Yes, definitely.

And I'd like to address that.

With that, I went on an honor flight, about two and a half years ago, and I thought, oh, I'm not going to, you know, this is not going to affect me.

I have safe duty, you know, and I didn't get any may have had, 1960 stuff where they would spit at me or threw with things at me.

And, and I even worked in downtown Pittsburgh with my uniform on for 19 months after I came back.

Never had a bad experience.

So when we went to Honor Flight, I thought, this is going to be a cakewalk, right?

But, we had dinner that night.

Men told their stories, and it was just so moving.

Then when we got back and we we landed at the airport, they marched us down one floor and on an upper floor, and we had to go downstairs and then back the same hallway underneath.

And when I turned that corner and people were there and they were shaking our hands and, reaching out and congratulating us, thanking us for our service, I just plain lost it.

It just all came out.

I didn't I don't know where it came from, but it made us made me feel like we were all heroes.

That's the most recent thing that, you know, it brought back a lot.

And I tell everybody going on our flight because it's so, so much so fun.

And it's.

So meaningful.

And go to this app or to.

All right.

Yeah.

So, Tom Cipolla, you, I believe you will be at the panel discussion.

Is that correct?

You'll be here in Rochester for this.

Have you.

Have you.

Have you taken part in panel discussions after the the show before?

Yes, many times.

And are there similar, trends that come out of that things, themes that you see coming out of these discussion?

Things people want to talk about.

They can vary.

It depends.

Some sometimes people want to talk about the just the time in general.

But many times veterans do want to bring up some issues, how how they were treated when they returned.

That's a common one.

People, they remember, often they'll be a story.

So I got up once and said they had, a P.O.W.

bracelet.

Not one for Colonel Thompson.

Often people remember that it brings back a lot of memories for a lot of people.

Okay.

But could you talk about the panel discussion what's going to happen after the performance.

Yeah.

So after the performance that will be our intermission.

So there'll be a little break and then we'll set up for this panel discussion.

And you know, in our planning of it really mostly we want to hear from the audience, you know, like, we're happy to talk about the process.

If people ask if people are curious about Tom's process, for example.

But, you know, we're all here to serve the story.

We don't really want to be there to, you know, nerd out about the music as much as we love the music and we're grateful for it.

But that was Tom's impetus as the composer, right?

We're there to serve the story and the people, and we really want to hear what it means to them.

So I think those of us on the panel, we're looking for the forward to the other direction.

You know, we're looking forward to what this experience is like for people in our community.

Okay.

And and, Lonnie, so coming back from Vietnam, I believe it was, you know, difficult because it was an unpopular war.

There was a lot of protest and people were, putting people who served and did what they were supposed to do.

Mixing that in with this was a bad war.

So they came back not as heroes.

It took a long time to feel like heroes.

So what can, you know, what can the community do?

And we don't have a lot of time, but to, serve, our veterans.

I think showing up is really important.

You know, you going on the honor flight and coming back?

My grandfather did it.

He was World War two, and that was the first time he told me.

I didn't think anybody cared.

And so, like, just showing up and listening, some veterans love being thanked for their service.

Some like to hide from it.

So just reading the room and, you know, being of that kind of space.

Okay.

The show July 19th, 2 p.m.

at the Robert Pinera Theater at all right.

Anted again July 19th, 2 p.m.

tickets at.

At Finger Lakes opera.org.

And it's pretty simple.

So get your tickets online.

All right.

Thanks to my guest, I have and, I'm Julie Phillips, sitting in for Evan Dawson.

We've been with Thomas Apollo, composer of Glory Denied.

Oh, I'm going to pronounce it wrong as from Finger Lakes opera, Lani Wellman from the Veterans Outreach Center and Tom Williams, our Vietnam veteran.

And we are out of time.

Thank you all.

And thanks as well to our production team and our listeners.

Have a wonderful afternoon.

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