>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection to sour was made in April of 2024, when a band of brothers and sisters came together for the first time.

This new group, serving veterans, was formed to deal with a growing crisis of social isolation and certainly social isolation is becoming a problem for all of society.

A new survey from the United States and the UK finds that young men who are out of work are spending more than seven hours a day alone online, disconnected from other people in the physical world.

Seven hours at least every day online.

Today, we are focused on the isolation of our veteran population.

Rock veterans not only experienced the reality, but saw the data.

56% of veterans report experiencing loneliness, at least sometimes, and roughly 20% report feeling chronically lonely.

These groups were 12, three and 12 times more likely to endorse suicidal ideation, respectively, compared with those who reported hardly ever feeling lonely.

Since April of 2024, Rock veterans has already seen some success.

They asked for feedback in honor of their first anniversary, and survey respondents reported that rock veterans helped them attend an event.

More than 73% did that.

Join a new veteran group.

That's about 27%, and receive a helpful service that they needed, such as filing a VA claim or getting a free bus pass that was more than 42%.

This is an organization that serves Livingston, Monroe, Ontario, Seneca, Wayne, and Yates counties, and today they're here to discuss the growing challenge in the veteran ranks and the services they are trying to provide.

So let me welcome our guests here.

And everybody pointed at Ashley Smith as the reason this all came together in the first place.

The chair of Rock Veterans is Ashley Smith.

Welcome.

Thank you for being with us here.

>> Thank you so much for having us.

We're so excited to be here today.

>> And welcome to Luke Moody, who is a veteran himself and coordinator of the Veterans Coalition for the Finger Lakes.

Luke, thanks for being here.

Thanks, Evan, and welcome as well to Dr.

Zachary Collins.

Zack works for the Monroe County Veterans Service Agency in nature based therapy.

Zach, thanks for being here as well.

>> Thanks.

I'm a pleasure to be here.

>> And your work is out of the center.

I think we.

>> Heard.

Correct.

Correct.

So yeah, so embedded out at the center in Honeoye Falls.

>> It's a pretty cool place out there.

So there's a lot to talk about here.

But Ashley, how did this come to.

This is only a year and a half old.

This is one of the really new organizations in our region.

A lot of our listeners will not have heard of it yet.

How did this happen?

>> So every year, the Department of Veteran Affairs puts on a mental health summit.

And our summit two years ago, one of the things that we really kind of highlighted from that mental health summit was that there were so many wonderful resources and programs available for veterans in the Finger Lakes region, but folks didn't often know about all of them.

It was really not as easy as you would think to find the resources that you needed.

Find the veteran groups to really get connected to.

So we thought that perhaps it would be best to try to put everything together in one spot.

We really wanted to make it as easy as possible for veterans and their families to find out about veteran events that are happening, to find the resources that they needed.

We really just thought that having everything in one spot would make it easier for the community to connect together.

>> And it's rock veterans..org the website Rock veterans.org.

If listeners want to learn more.

If you know someone who this is right up their alley you can learn a lot more there.

Your first anniversary survey, you know, that's pretty powerful results that I was reading off the top here in just one year.

You were you saw a lot of veterans who said, yep, attend an event or got to got help with a service.

I needed all kinds of things that probably before a year and a half ago, they might not have had help with.

Did you feel like that is already the evidence that you want, or did you feel like it wasn't enough?

>> We were completely blown away, honestly.

we were hoping for good results, of course, but I would have never anticipated results quite that good.

We were really thrilled that the website's working as intended.

One of the other questions we asked folks is, how often are you visiting us?

Either through our website or our social media?

We do have Facebook and Instagram as well, and 87.5 People report said that they came to us at least a few times a month, and almost 13% said they visited us daily.

So we're getting a lot of repeat customers and it's really wonderful to have that sort of impact on the community.

>> I don't know a whole lot of organizations that get double digits of daily interaction, which to me says there's a big need.

You see it the same way.

>> Yeah, I think there was a really big need.

and it's it's been great to for our organizations, we meet monthly and that's been really helpful as far as building Connections between all the different veteran organizations as well.

And now we have, you know, first name basis with people.

So if I am encountering a veteran that has some sort of need, I can refer them to an agency and I know that they're in good hands because I know I know Beth at Sunny Mike or doctor Dabit sunny Mike, and I know the folks that I am.

It's not just an organization anymore.

These are our our colleagues that we work very closely with, and it feels good to have that sort of community.

>> Do some.

See you there, Zach at the Aqua Center for some nature based therapy.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

And so I'm really proud to be part of this organization.

The Rock veterans.

I'm, you know, a little late to the party.

I just started with the county in July.

but I think it's a credit to everyone involved that we're really kind of breaking down the silos.

I've been in the veterans or active duty space, treating them both up at Fort Drum and then with the VA for a while.

and it's just really siloed.

So there can be a lot of great resources.

But if you don't know that person, and like Ashley said, what rock veterans are doing is creating a one stop shop.

And I really would say it's a nationwide best practice that for a community for Monroe County, for the the greater Rochester area.

we're really you know, doing as good as anybody's doing in the country with consolidating all this and making it easier for veterans to find the resources.

>> Do you mind me asking about the book that you brought with you?

>> Absolutely.

>> You bought a book, brought a book called Rethinking Suicide.

>> Yeah.

So we're tremendously lucky here in this county.

and I'm tremendously lucky that, you know, Adam Bello the county executive and my boss, Nick Stefanovic.

allow me to do the work that I'm doing.

So I believe my understanding is I'm the only clinical psychologist working for Veterans Service Agency across New York state.

So they've really been kind of innovative, similar to rock veterans in, in going above and beyond so when I worked up at Fort Drum, we had a we were having a big problem with suicide.

And this researcher, Craig Bryan, he's an Air Force veteran deployed to Iraq, and he's probably one of the top three suicide researchers in the world and is affiliated with the VA Center of Excellence for Suicide Prevention at Canandaigua.

So we're very lucky to have them here in our region.

And so he came up to drum when this book came out, and it's called Rethinking Suicide Why Prevention Fails and How We Can Do Better.

And so it's a great book.

Not going to tell you all the things about the book, but what it really kind of reset how we were were doing that and focusing on building lives worth living.

And so I think both for myself, for the team at the center and for rock veterans, that's really our focus is we're not trying to be I like to say I'm a psychologist, not a psychic.

I don't know who is going to have a suicidal crisis, but I know that if we use people like Luke, who's a veteran, who's got some great ideas Ashley and all the the network that we can build the community and help the veterans build lives worth living.

So they have those Connections, regardless of if they're at that moment in a crisis.

And so nature based therapy, which I do, is a is a great way to do that.

But there's there's a lot of other ways.

So that's kind of where that comes from.

>> Let me just ask you a little bit more about this before we turn to Luke.

When you say building lives worth living tell me a little bit more about what you mean, what the book means about that.

>> So for many veterans that sense of purpose that they felt while serving in the military can be a real difficult transition when they come out of the military.

And so one of the things that we like to do is especially at the Aqua Center, and so the Aqua Center is a private nonprofit.

So it's a cool public private partnership there.

>> but whether we're working with horses, whether we're working in the garden, whether we're working in the cooking class or with wild mustangs, we're actually challenging the veterans with a purpose.

So it's not just like, hey, do something because we need to do it.

But either they're helping gentle, a wild Mustang, they're helping to grow food that's going to go out to food insecurity organizations and lots of other things.

And so connecting back to when I wake up in the morning, hey, I'm going to do something today that matters, not just like you were saying, be online, play video games like Call of Duty is not a purpose that you can kind of wake up and feel good.

>> And I know a lot of people, you know, gaming.

Yeah.

Yeah, sure.

Right.

I mean, if you did gaming, that's I get it.

But to me, what was Zach, what stood out when I looked at the survey?

Again?

This is just UK and United States men under 30 who are out of work right now.

some still living with parents, some saying they're not even looking for work.

And this is not even just the veteran population.

But what stood out to me was more than seven hours a day alone online.

Yeah.

And I don't mean to denigrate that.

I spend too much time online myself every Sunday when I get the alert, how much time I average per day on my phone, I'm always like, don't even tell me this.

You know, it's my phone is shaming me.

but that doesn't really fall in the category of of what makes a life worth living.

I don't think in general.

>> Yeah.

No.

Absolutely.

And the thing I mean, similar to the title of your show connection.

So I think Connections is really the metric we used to talk about all the time.

Hey, do you have 500 friends on social media but nobody to hang out with this weekend?

Yeah.

Is there nobody that you could call at 2 a.m.

if you needed to?

Then you have very superficial online Connections, but not that deep, meaningful connection.

And so again, whether you're connected to other persons, an organization, veterans who are at a VFW or American Legion, but some other human being who is like, I know they would miss me if I was didn't show up today.

Yeah, that's the kind of Connections that again, across rock veterans, I think we're all trying to help build.

>> Yeah, in a weird way, this notion of online quote, unquote friends or social media, it's more antisocial.

I mean, I think in some ways it makes loneliness worse, even though I think we a lot of people got into this thing thinking, well, this will, you know, I can be connected to anybody in the world.

In reality, it's not it's more of a superficial, I think, as you say.

Sure.

And that's I've seen it in my own life.

I've probably felt it myself at times.

Luke, first of all, can you tell us a little bit about the Veterans Coalition for the Finger Lakes is.

>> Yeah, sure.

Thanks, Evan.

so the the mission of the Veterans Coalition, the Finger Lakes, is to support the needs of veterans.

by raising community awareness, finding resources and solutions, building strengths and addressing substance misuse.

And the region we basically we have a coalition of veterans and veterans serving organizations and public health organizations and community leaders who come together and we talk about veteran issues, and we try to network into finding solutions for them.

and that's kind of what we're all about.

>> And where are you personally based?

>> Out of Canandaigua.

>> Out of.

>> Okay.

>> Which was formerly the partnership for Ontario County.

>> Where did you grow up?

>> I grew up in Lima, New York, right here in Livingston County.

>> And Lima.

Okay.

And when did you get into the service?

>> I joined, I enlisted after September 11th, 2002.

I shipped off to Basic in April April of 2002.

>> Okay.

And how long did you serve?

>> 22 years.

22 years?

Yeah, I.

>> Just for that.

That's incredible.

>> Appreciate your support.

Yeah, I retired last the summer of 2024. and then spent a little time and about six months out in Oklahoma and then decided to come back and be around family and friends.

>> Okay.

And any regrets?

About 22 years.

>> no.

You know it's it's a lifestyle, you know I regret getting out.

You know, sometimes you wish you were still in it's kind of like that the transition that we were just talking about.

you're part of a world.

You're indoctrinated.

You're you're part of this group of people that are like minded and, like, purposed.

And then you have to transition to a different world, even though, you know, we're all in the same country and everything.

It's a different mindset.

>> So did you think you were going to serve as long as you did when you first enlisted?

After 9/11?

>> Absolutely not.

No, no.

I, you know, I was 19 was in college, didn't really have a plan offered structure, stability, purpose.

and it just kind of grows from one enlistment to the other.

and then you, you just continue and then you're like, where did 20 years go?

>> what do you think it it did for you now that you're in your.

Hey, we're both in our 40s.

We're getting older.

Time is relentless, man.

Yeah.

What what did it do for you as a man now in your 40s, that you didn't have when you were in your late teens, when you enlisted?

>> Definitely.

structure.

confidence.

purpose sense of belonging, you know, and when people talk about, like, being connected to different things or being part of an organization, when you're in the military, you feel like you belong.

You know what I mean?

You feel like you're part of a group.

You're you have people to have your back.

You have people even though there's all these policies and procedures.

But that can get cumbersome.

You know, you feel like somebody's looking out for you.

You have a battle, buddy.

You have a leader who's looking out for your well-being.

it's almost like another family.

>> And so when you decided to retire again after more than two decades, did you have a plan for yourself?

Did you know exactly what you wanted to do?

>> Nope.

No, I did not.

And you know, I was fortunate.

You know, I had a retirement, so I have a little bit more stability.

but I knew I, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do when I got out, but I'm still feel like the missing of the veteran community.

Like, I still feel connected.

And that's why, you know, I was looking for a position working with veterans because it's it's where I feel most comfortable.

I feel.

Brothers and sisters, I can look across the table and be like, all right, you know, we get each other type thing.

>> Sure.

And you've seemed to have found that in a number of different ways.

Here we'll talk about rock veterans a little bit more coming up and how you see the possible impact of this organization.

But for you, is this the plan for the foreseeable future, doing this kind of work and staying in the region here?

>> Oh, absolutely.

I love this area.

I grew up here.

I feel like I've been back for almost a year.

and it feels like home.

It smells like home.

The food tastes like home.

You know, it's great to be back.

And I love working with veterans.

I love finding solutions.

I love networking, I love pointing people to things that they don't know.

Like rock veterans is one of the first go to's.

When I meet a veteran and they don't know what's going on, I'm like, do you know about rock veterans?

Have you been on the calendar is great.

It's broken down by counties.

You know, click and you everything is on there.

And then they're like, wow, this is amazing.

We don't we don't.

Too often you read about something in the Democrat and Chronicle on Sunday that would have been cool to do Saturday.

Right?

I mean, and you're like, oh, you know, that would have been neat.

You know, it's it's getting ahead of the game and it's letting people know all the stuff, great stuff that's going on in the community.

>> I mean, obviously it's working already, which is really cool.

and I'm sure there's a lot of people who still don't even know it exists who are going to find it in various ways here.

you know, you clearly, Luke, are in that category of person who you need purpose, you need mission.

And my mom and dad had very different views of retirement.

So my mom would always say, for years, I just want to wake up and have no one need me today.

And my dad retired and he said, the worst thing that's ever happened to me is I wake up and I don't feel like anyone needs me today.

It's just very different views and I can totally understand both, I really do, but my dad is a veteran who spent many decades not talking about his service in Vietnam, and that really split his family.

And, and I think affected his mental health for his entire life and probably still does.

He's 80 years old.

are you you seem to be in that category that says, though, if you woke up and didn't feel needed at all, and maybe not just for like a weekend day, I mean, like for days on end, what would that be like for you?

>> it would probably be miserable.

You know, you can ask my wife.

I need to be involved in things.

I need to, I don't know, it's that sense of somebody needing me.

You know what I mean?

This organization needs me to come through for them.

It's the purpose.

It's the belonging.

It's all of that.

I would fall in the camp with your dad which I totally understand.

And that's what's great about these organizations.

And you bring the veterans together, and the more veteran to veteran interaction, the more likely someone like your dad is out there who could relate and feel you got to not be offended that the veteran doesn't want to talk to their family about it.

You know what I mean?

>> Tell me more about that.

>> Like, they can relate more to a veteran.

>> A fellow veteran.

>> A veteran, and maybe talk about it.

And maybe that's the beginning steps of talking to their family about it.

You know what I mean?

but they might not want you to see them in a different light or experience something that they carry, a baggage that they're carrying.

They don't want to share their baggage with you.

You know what I mean?

>> I you know, there's a lot of insight there.

I've never thought about it that way in the context of my father, but it makes sense because there are certain things in his service that I could not relate to that.

For example, my I have an uncle who served in Vietnam, wrote a really, I think, really good book about going back 40 years later.

And then I have another uncle who didn't serve and didn't want to serve.

So I think my father might have had some interaction with fellow veterans over the years, but certainly not with this family.

And I take the point that there are certain things that we can't relate to.

If you're if you're not a veteran that you just can't.

and I'm, I feel badly about that because I don't want people to feel isolated.

Right.

But it makes sense.

I mean, you've experienced things that if someone hasn't served, it's probably hard for them to relate to at all.

>> And it's not just relating.

It's like passing.

There could be shame, there could be guilt, there could be anxiety or fear.

and it could be a protection thing.

Like, I don't want to give you these bad memories, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It could be a love thing, you know?

It could not be a not wanting to associate with you thing.

>> Yeah, I, I, you know, it's hard to psychoanalyze my dad.

He's a hard one to crack.

I love him, and but I really appreciate the points here because not everybody's needs are the same.

And I'm sure Zach would be the first to reinforce that.

Right?

I mean, every person has different needs for how they communicate and how they connect with people, right?

>> No, absolutely.

And I mean, similar to to Luke's point, the the Vietnam generation I think, you know, collectively as America, we we did not do what our responsibility was to those service members who served during Vietnam.

And they were, you know, the society was you know, I was born in 1978.

So this is what I've heard from lots of them.

But society was really going through a transition, and they got kind of caught in the middle.

Right?

People were upset about what was happening, but they took it out on the people who had the least ability to impact that.

>> That's so.

>> Well, in terms of the the veterans.

And so the the good news of that experience.

So having worked for the VA for a little bit the VA has tremendously been transformed by the Vietnam generation, the Vietnam generation, collectively kind of insisted on changes.

So if you look at from the vet Center, American Legion, VFW, all those organizations really transformed by the Vietnam Veterans Generation who said, we're not going to stand for you doing this to another generation of veterans.

What happened to us and what I'm hopeful for is now, as we have the two longest wars in American history, in Iraq and Afghanistan, those those class of veterans like Luke are being leaders and coming back and saying, hey, we're going to we're going to pick up that ball and run with it to say, hey, we have to continue.

Whether it's rock vets, whether it's any organization to meet veterans where they're at and not try to impose what we liked from the previous generation.

For example, there's a member of Rock veterans.

That's a video gaming organization, and I think they're out of Lima.

Is that.

>> Yeah.

Regiment 282. there's also At Ease, which is another veteran video game.

they have discords, which is really nice.

So veterans can connect online.

Sometimes that can be the first step.

Right.

but then there's in-person events too.

So whether people are gaming on consoles or their computer they even do tabletop games like Magic and Dungeons and Dragons have kind of had a resurgence recently.

really anything at all to get veterans together.

Right.

And and connecting with each other can really help strengthen the community, drive down risk factors for a whole variety of ailments, including depression and suicide.

So those organizations exist to kind of create that online community.

We can reach into the homes of veterans that maybe aren't coming out to some of these other events, but that could be step one is meeting them where they're at, engaging with them online, and hopefully convincing them to come out to some of the in-person events to.

>> Well, Luke, I've watched for years as my dad will, we'll be out to eat and he will just stop in the middle of a conversation, stand up, walk across the room.

And when I was a kid, I was saying, like, what are you doing?

And he said, I'm always looking for hats.

He's looking for other veterans.

And when he sees them, he just goes up, shakes their hand, thanks them for their service, and they have a brief chat about, you know, their, their own service.

And, and I over the years, I thought you've talked more to strangers about this than you've talked to us.

But a lot of what you're all saying makes a lot of sense.

And I and I appreciate that for people who do feel a sense of isolation and the surveys are really tough to see I'll read the numbers again.

That Rock veterans has provided, but this really does track with what you see nationally.

56% of veterans reporting experiencing loneliness, at least sometimes, and 1 in 5 reporting feeling essentially chronically lonely.

And those groups much higher to feel suicidal ideation.

So, you know, I don't know actually if someone reaches out and says, you know, I'm lonely, help me.

I don't know if it happens that directly.

Perhaps sometimes.

But how do you try to open doors as an organization now that you've been doing this for a year and a half?

What's the what are sort of the techniques to try to get through to folks who need it?

>> So one of my favorite features about our calendar is it's actually searchable.

So in the top right corner there's a little magnifying glass.

And I'll just ask people, what are you what are you interested in.

What do you enjoy doing.

and if they like writing, I can just type in writing and it'll pull up a list of the different veteran writing groups that are happening in our region.

If they're interested in bowling, I can type in bowling, and it'll pull up all the bowling events that are coming up.

there really is something on that calendar for everyone.

There's some amazing, incredible events that happen in the Finger Lakes and just helping them connect with the ones that resonate with them is a huge head start.

And being able to search that calendar is very helpful.

I think.

>> Again, it's rock veterans, but it's Livingston, Monroe, Ontario, Seneca, Wayne and Yates counties.

It's a big coverage area and it serves a lot.

A lot of people there.

Zach, what do you want people to know about, you know, maybe opening the door to working through some of the challenges that lead to perhaps depression or suicidal ideation?

>> Yeah.

No, absolutely.

For for veterans, I found really groups of veterans are tremendously powerful.

And so you know, I've seen this even in my own family.

Sometimes if I can link up and make that connection with other people who have served and be able to talk about the stuff that maybe they don't have to explain all the way, get into gory details.

But like if you're talking to another veteran like, yeah, that was a really bad day.

Like, they know that means not that, hey, I didn't have enough milk for my cereal.

My socks were mismatched.

And then like, you know, I lost my cell phone and I couldn't park in the garage here.

That's not a bad day.

Like, if veterans, especially combat veterans, are talking about a bad day, they're talking about the worst possible things you could think of.

and so when they get that acceptance and be able to link up.

So we're always looking, you know, and out at the center, we have a lot of stuff that's in groups, groups of veterans.

So whether we're going out into the woods, whether we're working with the horses, whether we're working in the garden, whether like yesterday, we're doing a farm to table cooking class making those Connections and not necessarily kind of hitting you over the head with the clinical right at first, but like, hey, get comfortable, like, as you're saying, find what you want.

One of my favorite stories from the from the Equus Center.

So they have a pretty robust veterans program that predates the Monroe County.

Monroe County has been partnering with them for three years, but they've been doing this for for a while before that.

And I should say, all of the veterans programing with Monroe County at the center is free to veterans.

I think that's, by and large, true of all the stuff we're talking about today.

and the the Monroe County Executive and, and Nick have allowed us it's you can see I can see veterans from many counties.

So you don't have to live in Monroe County to, to see these services.

But so there was a veteran who was volunteering about ten years ago in the farm at the Equus Center, and she wanted to get into beekeeping.

And so the team at the equine center paid to send her to Cornell Cooperative Extension.

she runs five beehives there.

There's an apiary.

It has again, this purpose, it helps to pollinate the farm.

The honey is amazing.

There's two kinds of honey.

The fall one is kind of darker, based on the flowers.

And this veteran runs that as a volunteer, teaches classes.

So whether you're coming from a school field trip or whatever, you're learning more about bees, you're learning more about nature.

And and she's a great example of that sense of purpose.

So even if someone if you're a veteran out there and you have an idea that's not on the Rock veterans website and you have you want to start it, hit up Ashley, and potentially we can facilitate that as well.

>> And one more note on the idea of rethinking suicide.

I mean, the subtitle of the book is Why Prevention Fails.

That doesn't say it always fails, but that's that's hard to hear because often when we talk about suicide, we talk about the fact that people are afraid to talk about it.

People don't engage, people don't want to talk to loved ones that they're scared might be having these feelings because they don't want to trigger it.

And as we've covered time and time again, that is a loving but wrong approach to a need that someone might have.

But what the book is implying is that actual prevention, not neglect, but prevention efforts can fail.

Like there's there's something that is wrong in the approach to suicide, even when we're proactive.

>> Yes.

And so and what that means is basically the way people talk about suicide is putting all the burden for saving the person on their family, their friends, their leadership, their job.

And you're and you're really kind of disempowered.

Not intentionally, but disempowering the person.

And so there is actually very hopeful data.

So first of all, thinking about suicide, suicidal ideation is extremely common.

It does not mean that you will later go on to attempt suicide, or that you will die by suicide.

People don't know that.

And so the kind of stigmatizing thing is, if I ever have that thought once, oh, my gosh, I'm this person.

And then I'm just sitting here waiting for someone to figure that out and help me instead of kind of normalizing, hey, you can't control your thoughts, but you can control your behavior and that it gets better.

So there's actually an organization called It Gets Better.

but what we see all the time is, you know, there's a memorial and there's all these people who are who care deeply about this person who wanted to help them, who would have, you know, dropped everything to help them.

But the person had the the misconception that their death was worth more than their life, that they were a burden on these other people, that they cared about.

And instead, I think the hopeful message is, hey, this happens.

This is where veterans can be helpful of like, hey, I went through that.

Similarly.

And this you can get help.

It doesn't have to continue to be bad.

So the narrative that like it'll only get worse from here.

And that's I, I've told patients this many, many times like it's not a win if you die of natural causes, having been miserable and depressed your whole life, that is not a win.

But what feels like it's never going to get better.

Oftentimes that's not true.

And if we can get some Connections and get you back to something that matters to you in your life, that this can be a very transient problem.

>> No, I take that point about a life of misery is not what you're going for.

But often the people who are having those suicidal thoughts feel like they can't see a lifetime outside of misery until they feel somehow connected or pulled in a different direction.

And that may be very difficult to envision.

>> Oh, absolutely.

And so the I think the messaging needs to be you can be miserable and reach out for help.

You don't have to get through the crisis on your own.

Then develop some hope and then, you know, call nine, eight, eight or whichever resource.

and so again, this is where veterans are great because they can really kind of talk to each other.

And I think Luke will agree, like in a very blunt, direct way that's like, hey, it could feel like the world is ending.

so this this happened a lot when I was in the military.

So and it's better coming from a trusted leader, someone they know than behavioral health.

And I would we would always try to coach up leaders like that.

If someone's maybe just found out, hey, they're going through a divorce or they're going through a stressful life event and they have a leader who sits them down and say, hey, let me tell you, when I went through a divorce, I thought the world was ending.

I thought there was no hope for me.

I thought it was never going to get better.

And here's how I got to that point.

So it's like if if the other person is holding on to all the hope in the relationship, that's okay.

And so kind of helping people see it's okay to feel however you feel.

We're not here to take that away.

And similarly, the book talks about not everyone who's having that thought needs to be hospitalized tomorrow, but they need to be connected and they need to feel like, hey, it's safe to be talking about this stuff and not go through it alone, because that's where, you know, again, if you're playing video games with people, you've had a meal with nothing against video games.

But if you're only playing video games with people you'll never see and you couldn't get a hold of any other way, and you feel like no one, no one is connected to me right now, that's not good.

>> Luke.

Our veterans.

Can they be blunt with each other, even about hard things like suicide?

>> Oh, absolutely.

I, I kind of carry myself that in that way in life.

Right.

and I think people people don't all people don't respond to me.

Do you know what I mean?

Like my directness or my bluntness.

It doesn't work for everyone, right?

I have kids, each kid needs a different leadership style.

You have to adjust it.

You have to temper it.

You have to try it out in different phases.

But veterans like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, man.

Like, sometimes they need to hear that, you know, get up.

You know.

>> Is that an easier message from a fellow vet?

>> I think it would be, you know, like somebody who's been through the same thing.

We can relate quickly.

You know, we can establish credibility to each other real fast.

so, yeah, I think so.

>> Well, after we're late for a break, after we take a quick break, I've got some questions from listeners about some of the issues we've been talking about and want you to know about this organization.

That's I think you can still say they're still new.

April of 2024 is new.

it's called Rock veterans.

And the website is Rock veterans.

Dot Rock veterans.org.

They serve six counties and they're doing a lot of work basically being a clearinghouse of all kinds of services, event information, outreach, et cetera.

for veterans across our region.

And we're talking to Ashley Smith and Luke Moody and Dr.

Zach Collins about what they are doing in regards to this organization and trying to connect more people.

Let's come right back to your feedback.

On the other side.

>> Coming up in our second hour, one of the hardest problems to solve is the issue of housing and affordable housing.

Truly affordable housing in the city of Rochester, but really everywhere, all throughout Western New York, across the country.

Well, the city of Rochester is targeting the Jozanna neighborhood with new plans for housing.

We're going to talk about what the houses will cost, how many of them there will be, what the future might look like for trying to do more of this, and whether they can bring down overall housing prices.

That's next.

Our.

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Mary cariola.org.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson see why writes to the program to say is it that civilians lack the experience of military service, which makes it challenging for them to understand and or veterans to feel understood by things that are more related to veterans?

Or is it the shared experience of military service that makes it easier for veterans to find common ground for a starting point of understanding?

So Sy is saying you know, what is it that makes it harder for veterans to talk to civilians about this?

Luke, what.

>> Do you think?

I would go with the latter?

I would go with the shared experience.

I and we're not I don't want that question to come off like, hey, I'm a civilian.

I can't talk to this.

>> No.

>> Of course.

Yeah, right.

I can't relate to him, so I can't give them any kind of guidance or help in any situation.

But it's.

I hate to say it like shared trauma bonding.

Right?

Like we've been through a suck together, you know, we've been we've ate the same dirt.

You know, we can relate and we can establish credibility between each other quickly.

>> see why.

Thank you for that.

Got a couple questions on whether what we are talking about is, is generational in nature.

So I think Mark's question relates to mental health, but let's just talk.

Let's start with this with Ashley.

and with rock veterans.

So you're working with a lot of people already.

you've had a lot of feedback from veterans in just a year and a half.

Is it mostly older, mostly younger veterans?

What are you seeing?

>> We're seeing a really big cross section, honestly of people participating in these events.

I think historically it's been a little bit harder to get some of our younger veterans out to events just because they're they're busy, they're more likely to have young kids at home.

They might be working full time still and busy, but I think there has been a big shift in trying to schedule some events over the weekends and in evenings and make them more family friendly so that folks can attend those sorts of things.

>> Okay.

And let me ask Zack and Luke about this notion of whether the issues we've been talking about are generational.

And, you know, Zack, you're right with me kind of in middle age now, you're not the 19-year-old you used to be, but, you know, you're still pretty young to.

My dad would say, you're a young guy.

So for you, do you feel that it is any one subset or generation of veterans who are struggling with things like mental health, or is this sort of applicable across generations?

let me ask Luke that question first.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Luke.

>> I think we're all humans and we all go through the same struggles maybe at different rates or different times in our life.

I do see, like just having retired out of the military, a lot of younger soldiers who are dealing with social pressures and a lot of it we would stem from online interactions or not in-person interactions, but social media perceptions or stuff like that, that that not just the military is dealing with, you know, our kids and our society are dealing with so I don't want to say it's generational.

but I do think every generation has had different hurdles or different things that they've had to deal with.

>> Zack.

>> Yeah.

so I think there's, there's different flavors for the generation based on their circumstances.

But, I mean, you might have some listeners who are watching Ken Burns documentary on the American Revolution.

So post-traumatic stress disorder has been basically since written history.

Ancient Greece, you know, ancient Rome, there's been depictions of what would very clearly fit under what we currently understand is as PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.

And so I think the current generation is has the language more and is more aware of mental health.

resources than, than past generations.

But yeah, I mean, it's and when I worked with the VA, sometimes working with Vietnam vets you know, and sometimes they would express this regret of, well, you know, I wish I would have gotten help sooner and was like, well, okay, well, PTSD was like discovered and named in 1980, so it would have been pretty difficult for you to, like, seek out treatment for that.

Before it was really understood by modern medicine.

And so just being able to kind of accept that, you know, as a society, we have we have looked at military related traumas and issues like that differently across time, but they've probably been part of the human experience as long as we've been around.

>> Yeah.

George Carlin used to joke that, well, we knew what PTSD was before in in one of his many, I, I always thought Carlin was great.

and he looks at the way we use language, but he says everything has a longer name now.

He says, we say post-traumatic stress disorder, but we used to just call it shell shock.

Well, maybe fair to a point.

Certainly it's not.

It wasn't a revelation when PTSD was labeled that, oh, my gosh, can trauma happen to people who serve?

However, from what I've read, there's a lot more emphasis on truly understanding the depths of it because it's one thing to say, well, sure, shell shock.

It's another to say PTSD could affect you the rest of your life here, and it is a real thing and it should be taken more seriously.

So do you think, Zach, over time it is this one of the things, those things we've always known about?

Or do you do you view that as like a, a dividing line that says, we labeled this and it is a real thing.

It doesn't mean weakness.

It doesn't mean you're soft.

It means it's a real thing.

>> Yeah.

No, the stigma.

And again in different warrior societies, some of them, you know, prior to the United States, have been better at dealing with that and having rituals and basically groups and trusted leaders who would help initiate you to say, hey, we know that this experience of war has a toxic effect on, you know, your soul, your consciousness, whatever you want to call it.

And so we're going to help you mitigate that, and we're going to do that as a community.

And so I think, you know, one of the really cool things about rock veterans and just the the greater community that we have here is that this community is poised to try to do that and to say, hey, you know, everything that you were doing when when Luke was serving, he was wearing an American flag patch on his shoulder that whole time.

We sent him there to do that stuff.

And so I think when veterans get disconnected and they're trying to take on all the burden of responsibility for things they weren't in control of at the time, that's where it can get really difficult.

And so there, there are I definitely want to say there are really good treatments for PTSD, there are really good treatments for nightmares.

some of that stuff I do in individual therapy at the Aqua Center, certainly our partners at the VA, the vet center, there's lots of of avenues and that's that's what we're kind of looking for, is a veteran can kind of touch this network at any point.

They go down to the Veterans Service Agency to work on their benefits paperwork.

We're going to be doing an outreach event with City Councilman Willie Lightfoot on Monday the 24th.

So that veteran, wherever they interact with the network, they now have access to whatever their needs are and getting plugged in and not have to, like, go run across me in Honeoye Falls, which is a really lovely place to visit.

But like, it's off the beaten path.

>> I get you there.

let me grab a phone call from Chris and Geneva, and then we'll get back to your emails.

Hey, Chris, go ahead.

>> Oh, hi.

Hi, Evan.

great program.

so I work with veterans at my local gun club.

we have an air gun shooting league that is veterans only, and they're brought in by the VA.

And these men and women love the social aspect of the program that we run.

But they have said on several occasions over the decades they're a little afraid to tell their doctors when when the doctor asked the question, have you thought about suicide?

or are you having stress at home that that is is really high?

they're loathe to tell their doctors.

Yes, because they don't want to lose their gun rights.

Now, these are when I talk about losing gun rights.

The the red flags.

Red flag laws in New York state can come in and remove all of the hardware.

Gun hardware from your home.

If a doctor or a caregiver or a neighbor says that you've expressed some sort of self-harm or some sort of anger, and I'm just wondering if the red flag laws, while I'm sure they were intended for good purposes, in the case of veterans, it is stopped them talking to their caregivers and their doctors about what they might be feeling.

>> Chris.

Really good.

Good question.

Can I ask Luke about that?

>> Well, I'm not familiar with the law.

having just moved back to New York State after 22 years.

But I would say that like it, it is.

I understand why it's in place.

Right.

for a good reason.

But sometimes these good things have negative consequences.

Like, you might be taking away their only social interaction in the club or they're they're decompressing when they're out sitting in a tree stand sitting out in nature, just trying to relax and decompress.

It might be one of their avenues, and it is probably most definitely an unintended consequence.

>> Zach.

>> Yeah.

So it's a great question.

And definitely topical issue.

It's something that that absolutely can have some unintended consequences.

So what I would what I would say is for any person like, especially if you're talking about a therapy relationship that's built on trust.

And so it's absolutely valid.

And I would say critical for that patient, whether they be a veteran or not, to ask questions and say, okay, I'm going to ask you some hypothetical questions because I want to understand what you personally, you, you know, my doctor, whether it's primary care or whatever, are going to do in different situations.

And so now personally, as a, as a licensed psychologist, I would say that's our responsibility to make that clear upfront.

So yeah, I think the intent is never to just be arbitrarily or separating someone from their rights without a good cause.

But this is, again, where there can be a culture deficit.

So, like, first of all, that sounds like a great event that they're doing.

And that's that's awesome.

And two this is similar to what we were talking about with veterans, talking to other veterans.

If there is a trust.

So as a psychologist, if I'm ever going to break someone's like confidentiality or their trust, I have to tell them in advance and get their signature that like, these are the only ways that I would do that.

And so that's not going to be, hey, I had this thought once when I got out of the military.

Oh my goodness, let's lock this person down.

but it's absolutely appropriate for that person to ask that question and get get those answers before they say, well then, now, okay, now I trust you enough to have that conversation.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And again, I think it requires a petition to a court to, to remove a firearm in that kind of circumstance.

>> Yes, that is true.

>> Okay.

So but there's two different things here.

There's one that says, hey, it's not as easy as it sounds just to take a gun away from somebody because they've experienced anger or PTSD or suicidal ideation.

However, if that is the perception in the veterans community, number one, that is a problem because that would prevent people from maybe talking or maybe seeking service when they need it.

That would be a big problem.

And number two, if there still are occasions where that petition does happen and people feel like a piece of connection, an important part of their identity, or even just recreation gets taken away, then that could be an unintended consequence too.

So, I mean, I'm not at all criticizing.

I don't know enough to say.

I think it's worth examining to see how well it's working.

Fair.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> Okay.

I really good, Chris.

And that's probably a whole separate conversation on a different day.

because red flag laws are really tough to get.

Right.

and I understand the intention.

So I appreciate that point there, Chris.

Thank you very much.

>> And they should keep an eye on rock veterans, because I actually have and I'll have I'll post it.

I wish I had his email.

I could email it right to him.

but we'll get it posted on Rock veterans so hopefully they can find it there.

But there's I have a fact sheet that explains how the red flag laws work within the veteran community.

And and I'll just say briefly, you know, that's that's really the option of last resort.

you know, usually there's a thousand other things we can do before we have to worry about going down that path.

>> Can I can I throw one thing that I want to highlight from that conversation is that is exactly what we want.

We want veterans getting together and talking about these things, right?

Those veterans in that gun club are talking about, I have this thought, but I can't tell my doctor.

Right.

And I'm talking to you about it.

Right.

We're together.

We're talking about these things.

That's a form of therapy.

That's a form of them getting out their thoughts and bouncing off other people.

And then the other veteran could be like, no, we really should.

We really should go see someone about this.

Or they could, you know what I mean?

They can reinforce, you know, but they're out and they're doing things and they're talking together.

I think that's wonderful.

>> watching on YouTube, Steve says rock veterans is also starting to spill into other areas.

It's brought vets in Niagara County into the fold.

Also.

So be careful.

Otherwise you're going to grow even more.

>> Yeah.

That's true.

So last summer we had this incredible event with Soldiers to Scientists where we got a group of veterans and their families together, and we captured and were studying and banding raptors at Braddock Bay.

So we had a couple folks from Genesee County, a couple folks from Niagara County.

It was a really amazing afternoon.

>> And Gary says some of the issues you've been talking about are also a problem for cops and firefighters.

Paramilitary organizations.

When you're done, you're forgotten.

And there aren't any such outreach agencies doing this work.

Why?

That's why retired cops have a higher than average suicide rate from Gary.

And then finally from a listener curious that vets think that society views them as invisible.

Everywhere we see and hear ads, proclamations at sporting events, public figures extolling their support for veterans.

it'll be interesting to hear perception versus reality.

So this listener is saying, Luke, hey, respect what you do.

But we also are we not doing enough?

We hear a lot of love for veterans.

Are you not seeing it or are you not feeling it?

What do you think?

>> Oh, I see him feel it.

and it's.

But it's awkward, right?

Like being thanked for your service everywhere you go, like you.

>> Do you want, by the way, do you want to be thanked for your service?

>> Honestly.

Probably not.

Probably not.

Okay.

But I'm not going to jump on somebody for doing it.

It took me a while, actually, to get a response for that, where you don't sound egotistical, like, oh, you're welcome.

Like, what am I supposed to say?

You know, like, so.

And that's why I came up with I appreciate your support.

Right.

Because it's kind of a mutual thing.

I don't think veterans, they.

I think we're in a good place.

I think our society is taking care of our veterans, and we're respecting.

But we're not looking for, like, handouts, you know what I mean?

not that type.

>> I think you said thank you for your support to me.

When I think I was just surprised.

22 years, I think my my natural gut reaction was to be like, wow, thank you.

You know, like, yeah.

>> So no, no, no.

And I'm not saying don't think veterans, you know, but it's just it's a like it's like, you know, it's hard to deal with.

>> And a lot of people have different views.

You try to respect what, what people want.

But I will say I certainly appreciate what you have done, Luke, and I appreciate what veterans everywhere have done.

And as we wrap up this conversation, let me say again, it's Rock veterans.org is the website Rock veterans dot the website.

They're going to keep growing Ashley Smith.

>> I'd like to stick with these counties, but we are providing technical support to some other areas that are interested in kind of replicating our work.

>> And there's a lot that happens there.

If you're looking for things to do, you're looking for events to go to.

If you're just looking for help doing things like filing a claim or learning more if you want to hook up with people like Dr.

Collins, you want to go to the X. There's so much going on, and I want to thank our guests for telling these stories.

Ashley Smith, great work.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here this hour.

>> Thanks for having us.

>> Great having Dr.

Zach Collins who is with the Monroe County Veterans Service Agency and doing nature based therapy out of the Aqua Center.

Thank you for what you do.

>> Yeah.

Really appreciate conversation.

>> And Luke Moody, great talking to you.

Veterans coalition for the Finger Lakes.

We really appreciate the time.

Thanks for.

>> Being here.

Thanks, Evan.

>> We got more Connections coming up.

That's the word after this brief break.

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