From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson hosting alongside my colleague Leah Stacey.

Our connection this hour comes in the form of an email, an email from the NEA, the National Endowment for the Arts.

It's an email explaining in very short fashion why they are cutting your funding now.

The NEA has been a long time supporter of a diverse range of arts organizations, but now similar to the changes that we have seen at the Kennedy Center, we're seeing dramatic changes at the NEA.

On Monday, a group of senior leaders at the NEA resigned in a kind of protest over the emails going out across the country.

The email has shown up in hundreds of inboxes in the past week.

It's short, direct and explains why the Trump administration is cutting off funding, and the email makes it clear that the National Endowment for the Arts is pivoting to make sure any funding for the arts will be supporting the kind of art that President Trump prefers.

The email reads, quote, the NEA is updating its grantmaking policy priorities to focus funding on projects that reflect the nation's rich artistic heritage, heritage, and creativity as prioritized by the president.

Consequently, we are terminating awards that fall outside these new priorities, unquote.

And so what are these new priorities at the NEA?

Here's the list.

According to the NEA of what the president will now approve for arts funding projects to elevate the nation's HBCUs and Hispanic serving institutions and projects that celebrate the 250th anniversary of American independence, or foster AI competency, or empower houses of worship to serve communities or assist with disaster recovery, or foster skilled trade jobs or make America Healthy again.

Or support the military and veterans.

Or support tribal communities.

Or make the District of Columbia safe and beautiful and support the economic development of Asian American communities.

That's the list.

Funding is being allocated in a new direction.

According to the NEA, in furtherance of the administration's agenda.

For many arts organizations, this means losing funding that was previously approved and in some cases, already allocated or spent.

And our guest this hour will explain more.

Let me welcome to get some studio.

Chad Post is the publisher of Open Letter Books.

Welcome back to the program and thanks for having me.

Jessica Johnston, executive director of the Visual Studies Workshop.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Sheri vile is here, executive director of a magical Journey Through Stages.

Hello, Sheri.

Thank you.

And on the line with us, Peter Connors, publisher and executive director of Boa.

Addition to Loa.

Peter, do we have.

Kevin.

Thanks for having me.

There's Peter.

So, I don't know.

I mean, led to you.

I said at the outset this felt like the Kennedy story.

The Kennedy Center story.

Yeah.

As someone who covers the arts, how did this hit you?

Well, you know, this this started in his first term, which we all know.

This this was being talked about back in 2016, but that was more discussion.

Theory was practice, right?

We all kind of, you know, we're like, oh, okay.

And then nothing really happened.

And now this time, you know, as we've seen he's come back with this really like a much bigger energy.

And it's he's had for years to think about what he wanted to do when he came back.

If he came back.

And it seems like he came in really focused for all of the things that we have seen happening so fast, right.

And so the way I look at this is, of course, he's going to go after the arts first.

The arts is where we have self-expression.

We have freedom of expression.

And that's what the NEA supports, right?

Like that.

That is what the grant money is for.

I mean, we've seen it on the media side.

He's coming for the media as well.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

So none of this is surprising.

It's incredibly disappointing.

And obviously covering the arts, performing in the arts, being employed by the arts like we have to now rallied together.

We have to have these discussions.

We have to have the coverage.

We have to have the support from our communities because it is not going to come from the government at this time.

Yeah.

And before I turn it over to our guests, kind of detail what they're experiencing, I just want to say, I mean, listen, everyone's going to have a slightly different view on where the lines are with where your tax dollars are spent.

And I get that.

And that's valid.

Those conversations should be had.

There should be analysis of whether money is well spent or wasteful.

What I find strange is the new list of what is approved.

Yeah.

Includes arts funding for the Maha movement, the make America Healthy again for for for a list of things like fostering AI competency.

Yeah.

I I'm some of the things I is kind of antithetical to.

I don't even know I know there's a debate I know there's a debate is, for assisting with disaster recovery.

That's important.

Everybody says disaster.

FEMA's important.

But now that's the National Endowment for the Arts.

Think it's not poetry, it's disaster recovery and make America help.

I think we could make an argument.

That's very sad.

Poetry is disaster recovery.

Okay, yeah, but that's probably a different hour.

Right, Chad?

But so we can make that argument.

Chad reached out because you got one of these emails this week here.

So you want to tell me?

Tell us what the what you've been experiencing?

yeah.

Before I do that, though, I want to go back to this list.

So the two people that seem to have been in charge of dodging the NEA are the same.

Two that were in charge of dodging that NIH.

And they are Nate Cavanaugh and Justin Fox.

And they sent out these letters to everyone under this, like, burner account, essentially from their Nia that you can't reply to.

Now, this list that we're talking about, I don't think this has anything to do with the NEA.

I think these people are just such dingbats that they copy and pasted from some other place, and we're just like, it doesn't matter.

We're going to put it in here.

What the NEA and the NIH is still doing with the funding that remains, which is $34 million combined, is to create the Garden of Heroes, which is going to be 250 Life-Size sculptures in DC and a new park for the celebration, the 250th anniversary of our nation.

So I don't think any of those things are real.

I think that what's real is just this, this particular piece of art, and then possibly any other funding for this 258 celebration.

But I don't think that's going to be directed from grantees.

I think that's going to be a top down situation.

So again, you think this was a copy and paste job?

I think it's yeah, I think it's just like laziness.

I think that I think that there's like, that we can mistake laziness for maliciousness.

And I think there's a little bit of both.

But I do believe that in this case, because we are like you mentioned, that we were one of the first to go after the arts.

We're kind of towards the end because we're only 276, $207 million budget for NEA and 207 million for NIH, cut away, quote, unquote, the waste from government spending.

And you get down to, 10 or 7 million rounding error.

Let's just get rid of them now, okay?

But yeah, I mean, to Leah's point, though, certainly this is an administration that is following a playbook that says we want to control what's on stage at the Kennedy Center.

We want to know we want to know what that musician is saying before we we green like that.

And if we're not going to fund open letter books, we're not going to fund ball.

We're not going to fund if we if it doesn't hit one of these things on the list here.

One more.

Did you guys have access and read the Cato Institute white paper on how to defund the NEA?

It's interesting because it is an argument that is has contrary to like the culture wars of the 90s, which we did this whole long podcast, the 3% podcasts like Sorry Guys, Hour and 45 minutes long.

It is a clear history, very scripted history of what happened at the NEA.

How was funded, founded, funded these attacks?

Those attacks were about morality and about the artwork itself.

The Cato Institute and the playbook that they're following doesn't care about that.

They're like, that's one of the last things that they say why they should be defunded.

The rest of it is that art is just this just isn't important, that the money doesn't need to be spent there.

It's worthless.

It doesn't add any public good, but it treats it as like a field within a larger free market system, which is where they're kind of coming at the attack this time.

And they do, I believe with you are scared of art.

They are like, do not want certain things to be perform certain things to be, you know, promoted to and so forth.

But the tack that they're taking is one that's slightly different than it was when Jesse Helms was screaming about various books and Mapplethorpe and, I can't say it online, but the Eric can't say on here of, the particular, painting or photography photograph that was very upsetting to them at that point in time.

Rob Braden, get that dump button ready.

Yeah, it is possible.

It's, So can I ask all of you to kind of describe what you have experienced in recent days in terms of, what happens now with the organizations, what the funding means?

So I'll start with Chad and we'll kind of go around the panel.

Yeah.

So we got, our, our grant that is being terminated.

So there's two letters.

There's a termination letter in which you can still claim the money for the grant, and a withdrawal letter in which that money has been awarded and is now being pulled back.

We have a termination letter for a grant that it was actually from a couple of years ago, but was extended to end in June 30th of this year.

And that was for two translator triptychs, one featuring three books translated from Korean, one.

Three books from Latvian.

We got I got the letter as I was waiting to go into Thunderbolts.

asterisk, I suppose.

And I got it, read it, put it on Instagram, blew up.

Everyone got this letter after I did.

Somehow it was like one of the first literary people to get it.

which I hope is because the administration hates me and finds that I'm dangerous, which I'm going to take pride in, and I'm going to just pump that up here, that we will get the money from that.

But the sort of like the sort of low level dislike of, like the existence of our like it says, existential threat is what it feels like in getting that letter.

So sunset point, I've done everything I can to like both research, talk to people, work on like potential future plans.

We've done three podcasts about this.

going over like everything from that history through what?

How should we be talking about the narrative for nonprofit publishing looking forward, all this, all this kind of stuff.

So my reaction has been to like, try and figure out what's next.

Grieving.

It's like a grieving process in terms of like, I've worked at the NEA for 25 years now.

This is a real weird space.

I'm good friends with the literature director who has now left.

all of it's like kind of hurtful, but at the same time, like, let's we got to do something.

We got to not just, like, cry, we need to move.

And this and do find a new way forward.

Well, what's the worst case scenario than for open letter?

The worst case scenario is that we would have fewer books and that we would focus books that are on countries because we do all translations, countries that have funding for translations.

and you would leave out countries, book works from countries that do not have funding from their governments to support the translation costs.

So we would look towards that's the worst case scenario is to like focus in on.

We can do a lot of books from Norway because they have a good funding structure.

Iceland, Spain to a lesser extent, France to a lesser extent.

But you go to like certain countries in Latin America or in other parts of Eastern Europe that don't have funding for translation would be like, you know, we're not getting that money from the NEA anymore.

So, or it could impact like the programs where we do a lot of things that are what I believe nonprofit publishers should do that are not just transactional love.

Like, we make a buck and sell a book, but we do things that are like the podcasts that are like the translation database, the best translated book, or these things that benefit readers in the field.

Those could be impacted because we just will be spending all of our time trying to fill in, backfill this $30,000 a year.

Okay.

That's the story.

An open letter for the moment.

Jessica Johnston at Visual Studies Workshop.

What have you been experiencing.

Well couldn't like Chad on you know, Friday evening I received two emails, from this NEA account.

One was terminating a grant for, exhibition that we currently have on view called Sequence break.

that, you know, that grant has already been paid out.

but then the second one was a withdrawal of a grant to support our media arts programing in the next fiscal year.

and so that that money we have not received and it seems like we will not be receiving it.

Okay.

And what does that mean for you going forward?

Well, the programs that it was supporting our artist residency, community curating a curator program in the salon and our book publishing program, it's $20,000 of a $500,000 budget.

So while it's not a super significant amount, it you know, if we aren't able to fundraise to replace that money, then we may have to bring in fewer artists.

we may have to publish fewer books.

so it, you know, it's it's very troubling.

It's also troubling, how it can trickle down to affect state funding.

Okay.

And I also I'm curious to know, Jessica, wait, if you agree with Chad, when you look at the list that the by the way, we're reading parts of this email that went out this week to all these arts organizations, then they conclude by saying your funding was based on, you know, whatever your individual mission is, and it says not on the list.

You know, like, so I don't know if that means that if the visual studies workshop, if you do an exhibit like for a week next year on, under the guise of Making America Healthy again, can you get this money back?

Well, we did appeal, as was recommended.

but I did not appeal in the, you know, stating that our programs, aligned with the new priorities, because we didn't apply in our grant, for those programs.

So, it would have been disingenuous to do that.

we we do have Hispanic speaking people who are in the program.

You know, there could have been maybe a far reach, but, like Chad, I do agree that those seem just sort of ridiculous.

Okay.

Do you think, you know, I'm thinking about Chad's contention that a lot of this is just sloppy.

They don't really care about the arts.

They think it's kind of pointless, and they want to spend whatever money is available on these sculptures or, you know, maybe the military parade that they want to do and things like that.

but I'm also thinking about, you know, Leah's point about the way that different leaders from different stripes sometimes seek to exert influence over what art is accessible and what is not.

I mean, what are you seeing happening here?

Well, certainly this is an attempt to stifle, artistic expression and free speech.

I mean, if you look at the vast majority of the over, you know, 500 grants so far that we know that have been canceled or terminated.

These are small community organizations, local theater programs, dance, you know, festivals, concerts for seniors.

So it's really, you know, programs that enhance the quality of life for all Americans.

And so it's, yeah, it's it's very troubling.

well, let's continue.

Sherry vial, executive director of a magical Journey Through Stages.

What's the effect there?

We also had two grants that were taken back.

One was a 20, 2024 grant that was, Challenge America grant that was to support musical theater through Renaissance Academy, which is a Rochester City school, charter school.

And we had this was our first year doing that, and that was, has been terminated.

So we can still apply for whatever our final funding would be.

We don't know where that's going to come out.

The second one was the 2025 grant, which was to continue our collaboration with Renaissance Academy and actually provide, summer theater camp spots to their students directly so that kids who are economically disadvantaged at that school, which 91% of their students are, have the same opportunities that, kids that have the finances to be able to attend summer camps can experience.

And we expanded that program with Renaissance because of their kids being so excited about doing a musical theater program through their school with us.

So both of those right now are gone.

we are scrambling to find funding.

We will have those programs because we really believe in the benefits that theater brings to all of those kids.

And part of that whole program was to create a more equitable community that we all live in so that, everybody gets to benefit.

And we just believe that theater just provides so many benefits to young kids.

Shari, do you do you agree with Jessica that there's no way to sort of appeal in a way that says, all right, we looked at your list and here's where we fit.

I mean, you're not going to probably say assist with disaster recovery.

Okay.

Probably not now foster I competency, I guess.

No, no.

But could you argue that theater makes kids healthy again?

You're going to make that argument that, hey, we're making America healthy again.

We should have had your help to write our appeal, because that's exactly the road we went down.

We also were on a national webinar about this whole, crisis.

And there were some attorneys on there who actually indicated that one of the statutory NEA, purposes is arts education.

So we put our appeals in both under arts education and here's all the benefits, and pulled out a lot of studies that support that.

And then we also argued that we did fall under one of these priorities, which was Make America healthy again.

And we went through all the physical and mental social benefits that kids gain from experiencing theater and being on stage and life changing, skills that they develop.

We just had our gala on Sunday, right after we got this letter on Friday, and we had already gotten, videos from some of our alumni that are in their 20s who, when they were there, they were great kids, but now they realize the benefits and the life changing skills that they gained from being at our theater.

And that's what they talked about.

So it was it was very touching.

And now food dyes and theater, you know, you got a chance.

I would have emphasized enough food that, you know, I know we're all kind of like it's dark humor, but it is dark.

And for you, what is the possible outcome if you don't if you don't win this appeal, what does the future look like for you?

Well, we are in the same amount of terror situation as Jessica.

it's $20,000 because these are both Challenge America grants, which were just put in place a few years ago to serve our size nonprofit arts organizations.

That was their whole purpose.

so they've been great.

And we will go forward and do our programs.

We're just scrambling to try and find other support, unfortunately, other foundations.

The timeline of applying is too long to really be able to see if that's going to be effective for our particular programs, because they're both coming up.

They'll both be done by the end of the summer.

Most foundations, so you don't have a chance to get through this cycle.

So we're looking, to try and reach out into our community who already knows who we are and wants to support what we do and wants to support Renaissance Academy kids and provide them with these theater opportunities.

You know, Leah, you've covered arts for years.

And for those who just heard Sherry mentioned, you know, a $20,000 grant, it may be easy to think, well, I know it's not that much money, but in the world of what makes a community an arts community or a country in our country, it's not just those massive pillars.

Yeah.

I mean, it's it's, a stage organization.

It's a translator.

It's poetry, which you're gonna talk about in a second.

Yeah.

an arts community is kind of not to get sort of cliche, but a tapestry of a lot of different sizes and talents.

It's a village.

And I also was a theater kid, so I'm having flashbacks as you're talking about this.

and then I taught theater.

I taught summer theater, and I know how far $20,000 can go in community.

That's huge.

I mean, that can absolutely power a summer program.

And as someone who, you know, from high school to college, worked with theater kids from many different communities in this region, I know how important it is to them.

I mean, it's part of the reason that I decided to go to school for arts journalism because I saw the power of theater, saw the power of food, and I just loved those two aspects of our life and what they do for people.

I always told my college students and still do that.

If you have a theater background, you can do anything you want.

It prepares you for everything, every aspect of life.

So yeah, $20,000 is huge for something like stages.

And I saw your face when she mentioned the kids who are in their 20s, who are looking back now and go, yeah, I get it now.

Oh yeah, I see it.

That was you.

That was me.

That was so many of the kids I taught, and and directed and theater.

I've seen theater changed lives.

I've seen literature changed lives.

I've seen the things that VR does.

I mean, you could just sit in a salon and hear something that changes your trajectory.

And I am telling you, it's why they are coming after the arts, because it's one of the most powerful, influential versions of free speech that we have.

I think it's logical to think it is a combination, that there is some very intentional targeting.

But I also think there's probably people who are like, I don't know, like, sorry, nerds, we're not doing that.

Like, I think that there's some of that, like, I don't get it.

you know, it's like, why are we spending this money?

and can we say that about the parade and the sculpture garden?

I'm.

I'm just saying.

Can we shoot a script?

Then?

I am getting in the heads of the people making the decisions now who might not understand or think that there is any value.

You want to jump in there, Jen?

Oh, I was going to say one of the arguments that the Cato Institute white paper makes is that if you eliminate funding government funding, more private donors would step up.

This is part of their logic.

So like it's and that's one of the top ones too.

I mean it's just bad trash logic.

But like this is I mean it is it is a mixture.

It's a mixture of like, we don't like this and also like there's this weird libertarian free market, like everything should be in that way.

And it's not it's like it's very crass and it's very mean.

We're going to get to that that theme a little bit more in the second half hour.

I think Leah's description, it's a vicious cycle.

It's interesting though, because telling everybody who gets any kind of funding, well, just go to your donors.

The donors have been hit hard.

They've gotten a lot of phone calls and emails in the last couple of months.

I mean, everybody can.

And then it's like everyone in the community is going for the same funding sources, which are then becoming limited.

And you have stages competing with Blackfriars at some point, or Jeeva, like, we have to think about these like tiers and the sizes of these organizations.

And, and then we're heading into a recession.

Yeah.

How would the donors doing.

Yeah.

How are they for okay.

So that's when I say vicious cycle.

It's like, yeah, you know, you look at your budget as a person in the world who wants to support arts and culture and you're like, okay, I have this X amount of dollars to put toward this.

I want to buy a birthday present for my kid.

You know, like, it's just basic math at the end of the day, and people can only do so much.

Peter Connors is publisher and executive director of Boa edition.

So what do you experience in there?

Peter?

so I guess just a quick history of of Boa with the NEA.

So Boa, for those who don't know, is a publishing and nonprofit publishing house, located in Rochester.

We are on the brink of our 50th anniversary.

we were formed in 1976, which makes Bella one of the longest running independent presses in the country.

And it's right here in Rochester.

We were among the first presses ever funded by the NEA.

So this is going back into the early 80s.

So both history is inextricably linked with the history of NEA funding, publishing in general.

And so, you know, I like to sort of lean this in a slightly different direction, which is we're also a small business located in Rochester, New York.

We have three employees.

We have an internship program that has college students constantly cycling through.

We do some local events, we partner with writers and books to put on some, some online events that are free.

But so, you know what the impact that we've been able to have as a National Book Award winner and with our prize winning press and so forth is unreal, given the size of the organization and what just happened to us is, you know, the same as happened to everybody else here.

We had $35,000 that we had from the NEA, which, by the way, makes the NEA our largest single funder.

just, you know, yanked back, same as everybody else.

It hits in a really odd way.

I think in particular, in that it does correspond to our 50th anniversary.

So it's a little bit of a double slap in the face.

But, you know, the reality is people can talk about the arts and different things like this and is important, is it not?

And obviously we all think it's important here on this panel.

But for people who might not think the arts are important, I would say is small business important?

Because really what is being done here is small businesses all across the country, which is what small arts organizations are.

They all employ people.

They all have people that then go out and get their cars repaired and have daycare services and go grocery shopping and all this stuff.

It's really hitting at the heart of small business.

And so that's the way I'm sort of looking at it, like, why would you do that?

Because the ripples that shoot out from that of somebody then deciding you know what, maybe I can't go and buy that thing.

You know, that's the way it works into the economy.

So it is an arts issue.

but, you know, as chatted pointed out, I don't think we're talking about people who care, particularly about it being art or have taken the time to look at what the art is.

You know, one of the books that just got defunded in our list is by Bruce Weigel, who's one of the most prominent, veteran writers.

by veteran, I mean, he was a Vietnam veteran, in the country.

And he's been a Pulitzer Prize, finalist twice.

We've published 4 or 5 of his books.

We had one coming out in this series that was defunded by the NEA.

And I know the answer is, well, could you put that in your appeal?

Sure we can.

Yeah.

But my thing with this is I think that bullies operate best when they give you a little bit of hope and then kick you in the teeth again.

So as much as we are going to appeal and I can say, you know, we're publishing a military veteran, a veteran and all that, I don't think the time is being spent to actually look at the content of what we're publishing.

It's more just an ideological we're not going to fund the arts.

And, you know, Chad brought up some examples of NEA history when specific projects raise the ire of those in charge of these purse strings.

And I almost look at that as quaint.

Now.

You know, it was nice when it was like an ideological argument about specific pieces of art.

You know, I missed that because I don't think that's what this is.

I think it's just a, you know, blanket.

No, across all art.

And I guess the last thing I'd say about that is, you know, art is evolution.

You know, you didn't see cave paintings and so forth starting to appear until people were fed and a little safe and a little warm, and then they could evolve to the next stage of creating art, to talk about their lives and their experiences and share that with people.

This is a d evolution of human consciousness, really.

It's an attack at the idea that we can create art that talks about our current situation.

That's what's at risk.

Okay, let me let me just follow that point with Peter.

And I want all of our guests to weigh in on one other point, and then what we'll do is we'll take a break.

We've got a ton of feedback here.

We have a lot of listeners who are similar, I think, to the kind of feedback we're getting after the Kennedy Center Show.

We are talking about the National Endowment for the Arts and the big cuts in terms of funding and the new priorities, a list of new priorities from the Trump administration that the NEA is is telling publishers and executive directors and stages across the country.

If you're not on the president's list of preferred priorities, you're not getting any more money.

but, Peter, I'll start with you.

I'll go back.

Cross panel.

The argument on the other side of this says we're not devolving.

And the way that you described, because we have a marketplace that says, all right, publish your poetry.

And if it has a market, it will sell.

And if it doesn't sell, don't ask taxpayers to fund it.

That is the argument that a lot of people who are on the political right, right now would say is survive on your own or don't.

What do you think, Peter?

Well, I think, you know, again, that's not the way that the arts in this country have been operating since the mid 60s anyway.

So if that's the argument, I guess what I'd say is, well, then maybe don't start that in a cycle that you've already promised us money for, you know, maybe give us a little like running start here.

Because what happens is you then you immediately pit everybody against each other for smaller and smaller resources.

So if that's the thing, maybe let's have a debate about it and not unconstitutionally, unconstitutionally take back money that's already been promised and give everybody a chance to wrap up and ramp up to that.

So obviously, do I think it's, you know, important to fund art?

Sure.

Yeah.

And I look at something like Space-X, which is funded to the billions by Elon Musk's, you know, Elon Musk's own company making decisions and receiving billions of dollars.

Would I rather see a little bit of that 207 million peeled off for the arts, which is less than 100th of 1% of the federal budget?

Yeah, I want to live in a country that believes that's important for sure.

And I have, you know, we have been.

So I'd like to see that keep going.

But at the very least, maybe give us a heads up and don't unconstitutionally take back money that's already been promised by the government that we all pay taxes, too.

Cherry vial, executive director of a magical journey through stages.

If an organization can get people to pay for the work, then they should.

And if they can't, they shouldn't rely on tax dollars.

What would you say to that?

I would agree that, the hard part is that these were funds that were already awarded in our case, in every other case and projects that are already ongoing year midstream.

you've already promised things to people for us.

We've promised our kids that they can come and do summer camps and not have to pay, and to have their taken back seems so disappointing.

Unfair, nasty.

Well, you can use whatever term it fits, for your particular position, but going forward you could say, okay, fine, new administration, new plan for the NEA.

Okay.

We can all live with that.

So that would be one answer and the other one would be that, if that's the case, that nonprofits need to be able to operate on their own, then perhaps the whole outlook of supporting nonprofits needs to be a little bit different, where organizations can run more like a corporation, where we're not limited in our foundations to say your administration costs can only be 10% or 20%, because that's certainly not true in a normal, profit corporation where they're all about making a profit.

So if that's the case, then let us use our money the way we need to use it to be able to fund the benefits that we're bringing to the community, because it's the dichotomy that exists right now that makes it very difficult for nonprofits to operate in what could be a more businesslike manner, as opposed to spending a huge amount of time finding grants, finding foundations, looking for donors, looking for major donors.

if we had all that time to just run our business, we could probably operate more effectively and have more money to support the arts that we're trying to bring to our youth, Jessica Johnston, executive director of the Visual Studies Workshop.

What do you think?

Well, pardon me, I think that, you know, currently, I agree with Peter and I agree that, yes, we need more time because, you know, these grants are planned a year in advance and they're actually reimbursable grants, which is something that needs to be noted.

So organizations spend the money and then they ask for the government to reimburse them.

So this puts us in a very precarious position.

But I also want to say that there is broad support across this nation for the NEA.

It's, we live and currently in a democracy.

And so it isn't just the administrations, you know, job to decide to eliminate the NEA.

We have members of Congress, and we need to, you know, we have senators and we have members of Congress, and we need to make sure that they fight to keep the NEA alive.

This is in a budget.

It can be changed.

I understand that that is a long shot, but we definitely need to keep that in mind that, you know, it's a small number of people who are calling for the elimination of the NEA.

Chad Post, publisher of Open Letter Books.

Yeah, echoing all of that and then saying to you that related to what we're talking about with, with the administration attacking arts, there's like a real mean spirited vengeance nature to this administration that wants to strip away the little comforts that we have.

So we're talking about 20,000, 30,000, $40,000 grants, which are significant to all of us, a rounding error on the part of the government.

And yet there's that this idea of like, let's just take away from people just a little bit that will like make you a little more isolated, a little more fragmented and a little worse position, a little bit more vulnerable.

And I think, related to what you're asking about, if Art can't afford chair, our art organization cannot afford to survive based on sales alone, as nonprofits, as sales and donations.

Maybe we need everyone out there who does not support Trump, does not support this administration and does believe in arts to start donating.

Then we do need to revamp this.

There is a lot of support, public support, like you're saying.

Then there's always been congressional support.

There's no way to ever end the NEA because it was a bipartisan, bipartisan support right back to the initial study from JFK that or that he commissioned to create the National Endowment for the Arts.

So we do need that, and we just need people that have these resources to step up.

And let's just do this in the in the face of Trump, instead of like, letting him have the upper hand.

And before we go to break, you know, Leah, in the way you've covered the art scene, there have been, every, every scene, everywhere can be competitive or fragmented.

Do you see a unifying effect here?

I think this community is really collaborative to begin with.

and I, I think that this has one of two outcomes.

Either it's going to get more competitive or the arts organizations are going to band together a little bit and say, hey, we have to support each other.

We need the community to support us.

And, we need to educate our kids, especially the ones who don't have those resources readily available to them.

Well, on that note, as we go to break here, here's an example of the kinds of feedback we're getting here, about some of the effects here.

Charlotte.

Charlotte writes to say, Evan, just yesterday, our son and daughter in law were told that the National Endowment for the Arts canceled the grant money for camp.

Say this is a summer camp for kids who stutter.

Our 12 year old grandson attended last year, and it was transformative for him.

He plans on attending again this year.

This is one more program that this administration is taking away from children with disabilities.

I had not heard of camp say, look it up.

I mean, certainly a real thing, and I'd like to learn more in Charlotte.

So I don't know all the details there.

But Charlotte, I do appreciate the correspondence.

That's probably not a huge overall dollar number to the point that, you know, been made this hour in terms of the federal budget is rounding errors, correct?

That doesn't mean, by the way, that everybody endorses just money forever with no accountability.

It just means you cannot cut the NEA under the guise of, well, we're trying to balance the federal budget.

That's not where the money is.

It's not even close.

So go ahead.

One thing I would say is that 207 million, if you put, all of the federal budget into time, essentially, that's 15 minutes of the entire federal budget for the year.

If you do that, do that again.

They broke my brain for a second.

Take the federal budget, make it a yeah.

Does that 15 minutes of funding.

Oh, boy.

So you're telling me it's small.

Yeah.

I mean it needs to be there.

It's very important to all of us.

We have such these these little like organizations like we're talking about that this means so much to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm just saying, like I understand the libertarian arguments, all that stuff, but you can't look at this and say what?

We have a very serious about balancing the federal budget, but we're not going to touch the defense budget.

We're not going to touch Medicare and Medicaid.

We're not going to touch Social Security.

That's where the money is.

That's hard.

But that's where the money is.

Yeah, it's not this.

When people look at the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and funding for public media, everybody listening right now in your brain say, how much of the federal budget do you think goes to public media?

It's .00000016 7%.

Yep.

Okay.

Six zeros and then A167.

I don't even know how to say that.

That's a number I don't that's beyond my capacity as a math professor to even say so.

You can debate whether you want the money spent but don't do it in the.

Well, you know, everyone's balancing the budget.

That's not where it is.

That's not where it is.

So, so we got to take our only break.

I'm going to read more of your feedback on the other side as we talk about NEA cuts, National Endowment for the Arts and the organizations in our community and across the country that are getting those emails from the federal government explaining why, the Trump administration has new priorities for the arts.

Coming up in our second hour, the 2025 Rochester cocktail revival is coming in just a few weeks.

It is the only week long festival of its kind in New York State.

More than 30 Rochester bars and arts venues will participate more than 70 events across downtown.

We'll tell you about it at a time when alcohol sales and consumption are significantly down in the last few years, we'll talk RCR next hour.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson regarding, art and arts and taxes.

Leah says the market also known as We the People, voted for the representatives in Congress and they voted for these arts programs.

It is totally legit.

Don't let people tell you it is not essentially just because one administration or one person wants to reroute where all the money is going for it.

But Leah says, we voted for these people.

This has been asked and answered.

Well, aside from another Leah.

Different.

Leah.

Yes.

Very.

Yeah.

Not the same here.

Laura has some pretty strong views.

Laura says Trump is the front piece of the attack on the NEA, the Institute of Museum and Library Sciences, the librarian of the Library of Congress, PBS and NPR, etc.

this attack is the culmination, Laura says, of decades of right wing strategizing in order to dismantle any governmental support for diverse artistic and cultural cultural expression, especially those programs that support marginalized and previously excluded communities.

This is much bigger than Trump.

All though in him, the radical right has a willing and bombastic spokesperson.

As Pete Seeger told NPR in 2005, there is no hope.

But I may be wrong.

I like that last one.

There is no hope, but I may be wrong.

Laura.

Thank you.

and Charlie says, Evan.

Evan.

Evan.

Three of them to start.

He says, can someone explain why so many Americans are so against funding the arts?

Why are they intimidated by art that isn't literal and easy to understand?

Is it because they feel it is too highbrow?

Are they threatened by people who believe they're smarter than them?

Why can't America be more like Europe?

Why in Europe, art is celebrated everywhere.

Shoot in Japan, artists and craftspeople are revered and celebrated.

My wife lost her art teaching job when art teachers were all fired in the 80s.

You just had a show about people leaving the country because of the political climate.

Well, here is one more reason.

Me, I'm hanging tough and I am fighting back.

I might now reprise my role in the Pittsford School of Ballet, along with my daughter, just to stick it to the art haters.

What would someone when someone please call in and explain why you agree with Trump on this?

I just don't understand yours in the arts.

Charlie, I've an interesting thing to add to that.

So the initial, study that JFK commissioned from, I believe the person's name was Arthur SR. to see about the role that the government could play in arts.

The beginning, preface or the introduction all deals with this idea that America will be judged not by its military strength, or not only by its military strength and its its history, but by the art that it produces and is sort of setting itself up against, you know, France, Germany, Spain, all these like, European countries, and that America's art needs to be, you know, developed good, cultivated through the government's support in order to show that America is not just this like military strength, but also has great artistic enterprise.

So with that, that that person that wrote in said is very I mean, it is part of that is very important.

And, your, your colleague Katie Semel sends us a note here.

Chad.

He says, I received in NEA Translation Fellowship in 2016.

This was a hugely important award for me, and not simply for the money.

It was also a recognition of my work as a translator, the beauty of the arts, and in my case, the literary arts, is that you can impact readers years after a book is published.

Open letter published.

My translation of Rock, paper, scissors by the Danish writer Naja Marie Knight in 2013.

That book still thrills readers, so much so that I'll be on a popular podcast soon, discussing the book with thousands of new listeners 12 years after its publication.

The same is true in the case of visual arts and music.

That's why we still read after all, classic works of literature.

This administration fears ideas and independent creative thinking.

There's no other way to interpret their destruction of the NEA.

Kyle Semel, Katie Semel, an author himself and a translator.

Thank you for the note there, Kyle.

So, maybe what I should do is just ask, our guests what what they think logically does come next year because, we're going to continue to hear probably on the national level, not just President Trump, but his acolytes saying, you know, go fight on your own, stop, stop taking tax dollars.

You're going to hear that refrain and you'll hear it in the arts, and you're going to hear it in a lot of places.

What I think is going to happen, although I want to hear from all of our guests on this, but I think is going to happen, is you're going to end up in a world where Taylor Swift is going to be fine, John Grisham will be fine.

You know, the big bubble gum sellers are going to be fine.

And that's not, by the way, disparaging either of those artists or anybody.

I'm just saying the biggest names will make their livings, but fewer people will be able to.

And you will see a narrowing of who can even exist in in the arts in a lot of different genres here.

And so we'll be left with the stars and very little else.

That's what it feels like.

Is that illogical?

I mean, you gave me a look when I mentioned.

No.

Well, that's because I'm a Taylor Swift fan.

I'm not disparaging Taylor Swift.

I'm admire Joe Swift.

I know, I'm just saying she she's mostly a Taylor Swift as a business person fan.

no, I think that's accurate.

I have the same thought about media, and I know we've talked about this.

That's a great point.

I feel like we're in a similar place and I keep talking to the team about this.

And I know there's lots of conversations in this building about this, but if we if local media goes away, it's the same thing as local art.

Who's going to tell those stories, whether it's on the stage, on the pages of City, or in translated, in the pages of a book, told in a talk at via CW, or through an educational program anywhere.

Who's going to tell these local stories?

You know, the Gray Lady is going to be telling the national stories.

That's the tale of the Taylor Swift.

So the New York Times reporter and and that's my fear is like, who if we don't all stay afloat, collectively support each other, you know, do the coverage, have these discussions?

Who's going to keep telling those stories?

That's the most important thing.

Well, let's ask the panel what they think here.

And you got about a minute apiece.

Go ahead Peter Connors.

I think what's going to happen is we're going to find what the next way is to survive.

And art will survive because I believe in it, you know?

So my whole life as an artist and supporting the arts, and if I thought it was so, you know, flimsy that it could get blown away by some bullying, I wouldn't have done that.

So this hurts, and we're going to have to find a way through it.

And it's unfortunate and it's unnecessary, but we will all continue to do what we do.

And you just gave me a great idea, which is why don't the Taylor Swift and all these people start their own foundations to support the art forms that have made them good billionaires, and they could make up that $2.207 million in a heartbeat.

I really like that.

Okay.

Sherry vial, executive director of A magical Journey Through Stages.

What do you think?

I think that arts will survive.

we feel like we don't pay our artists anywhere near what they deserve for the time and talents they bring, and yet they continue to come because they love theater.

They love what theater offers for kids.

And I think that that will transcend into all the other arts that have been hurt by losing the any art grants.

But we will all find a way, because there's passion, underneath all of these arts organizations, which is why we exist to start with.

And we will have the passion to continue them.

Jessica Johnston, executive director for the Visual Studies Workshop.

I agree that art will persist.

we're already so used to struggling and making all the money that we do earn count and go so far.

So we will get through this.

But it is, a really devastating turn of events and really discouraging.

I just want to reiterate something that Leah said is that, you know, the vast majority of the art and the artists that are funded through the NEA, and they're supported by Visual Studies Workshop, reflect Back the truth, and realities of our communities, and that those stories are so important, especially for marginalized and, and rural, spaces.

Okay.

Rural spaces are going to struggle.

With news media.

Yeah.

I mean I grew up in a dairy farming town.

You're preaching to the choir.

It's it is, it's real job related to that.

A huge part of the NEA budget is reallocated to local arts agencies to be distributed to artists of like $500,000.

A lot of that is going to be be gone.

I agree, arts will survive.

We'll figure out a way.

Peter, I'm going to be contacting you about the idea with the Taylor Swift thing, which was not necessarily from Taylor Swift, but something I've been cooking up.

And then I hope that, there's going to be sort of a almost repolarization of art as an action that is, has a meaning that goes beyond just simple entertainment and is very clear.

I guess I'm calling for revolution.

That's what I'm hoping.

That's all.

That's just that.

Okay.

No shit.

What a way to draft my.

So.

Well, no, I'm going to press you on that last point there though, because there will be probably some Americans who feel like they're pretty centrist and they don't study politics much, and they don't love the rancor, but but they're like, hey, as long as you can just take politics out of it.

I understand a lot of artistic expression is inherently political.

So you can't just take politics out of art, but does it feel that everything is team sports now to the point where if you're not on a certain team in power, you are going to get targeted?

Does that what is that what it feels like to you?

It feels a little bit like that.

I was thinking in terms of like that.

We publish a book from a particular country that feels like a political act at this time of like anti-de stuff, that this is sort of like, not underground, but is, is, is addressing that.

One other thing I was going to mention is you talk about John Grisham being okay.

A lot of the big publishers.

P H Penguin Random House, Harpercollins, Simon Schuster, they use presses like ours, like nonprofit small presses as like farm teams.

The big authors that come up of have their start in these smaller presses and then get elevated to the big presses.

That pipeline could be cut off through this a little bit or not cut off and damaged.

And that's that's also something that's going to restrict, people's access.

All right, Kevin, on line one gets to drop the mic on this conversation.

So make it tight Kevin.

Go ahead sir.

All right I got a quick, I want to add to the Peter's idea is that I think that the Monroe County level, if we were to pass a specialized tax on these larger performers coming into the area and then have that go into a general fund to really complement what you're talking about there, particularly for the smaller organizations that don't have the administrative, you know, capabilities to really apply for some of these grants.

That's one idea.

Like my real reason for calling, though, is that, and maybe this is a subject for a different show down the road.

But when we think about what impact AI is going to have, on work, there's a future that could look like where we have more leisure time to be able to do so.

This is the time we should be investing in the arts and really shoring that up, to be able to make sure that when we get to that point in the future, when people are working maybe shorter weeks, that we can really enjoy the arts.

Kevin, I want so much for that to be true.

We are training.

I like the first thing we're doing is like, how do we get the thing to write a book on the fringe?

Like, how do we get this thing to write poetry?

And then we're like, no, it won't be able to do it.

Then you're like, oh, no, it's really good at it already.

So I'm with you, Kevin.

I would love to see a world where people have more time to pursue what they want to pursue.

I don't think we are organizing ourselves very effectively to get there just yet, but I hear you.

And by the way, interesting idea too, on the big ticket stuff that comes into areas, you know, finding ways to put a little levy on there.

See, maybe, maybe, I mean, there's all kinds of ideas out there, and I want all of our guests to come back and tell us how things are going.

Well, we'll catch up with Peter Connors from as soon.

Thank you.

Peter, thank you so much for having me.

evidently appreciate it.

Sherry.

Bile from a magical journey through stages.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much, Jessica Johnston.

Visual studies workshop.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chad Post open letter books among his wonderful podcasts.

Thank you very much.

Thank you guys.

Appreciate having you here.

More connections coming up.

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