From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on Tuesday, January 21st at Washington's National Cathedral.

In a sermon that has now gone viral, Bishop Marianne Body called on President Trump to quote, have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now, end quote.

Sitting in a pew with Melania Trump and Vice President J.D.

Vance, the president stared ahead or looked at the floor.

The vice president had subtle reactions.

He made some comments to his wife.

And the next day, President Trump condemned that sermon on social media, calling the bishop a radical left hardline Trump hater.

He also asked for an apology, which buddy told NPR she would not be giving.

She told NPR, quote, I don't hate the president.

I pray for him.

I don't feel there's a need to apologize for a request for mercy.

End quote.

Bishop buddy is no stranger to navigating political polarization, nor is Bishop Carl Wagner Scherer, the newly consecrated bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester.

She is the first female bishop to head the local Episcopal diocese and was consecrated on July 13th.

A focus of her work is uniting and engaging the community, especially at a time when congregations are shrinking.

Church attendance across denominations is down.

This hour, the bishop joins us talking about her work and the role of clergy during a time of cultural, political, everything division, which feels pretty divided right now.

And I'd like to welcome our guest.

the bishop is with us.

Bishop Carl Wagner Scherer, the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester.

An honor to have you.

Thank you for making time for us today.

Thank you for having me.

how are things going since last July?

How are how are you doing?

I'm having a great time.

This is a beautiful part of the country.

As I'm going into a different parish every weekend and seeing everything from Lake Ontario down to the Pennsylvania border in the southern Tier and the Finger Lakes and the suburbs and city of Rochester, getting to know people and getting to know the history of this place.

you've served in ministry across the United States and England.

You've taught in New York City, England, Chicago.

So you've been all over and you've got a degree in English from Saint Olaf College.

I mean, come on, Golden Girls fans unite here.

You hear that all the time, don't you?

Yes, yes.

And also about the choir, which was just here last night and is is quite famous and wonderful.

how different is Rochester than what you have experienced, in England or other American cities?

As somebody told me in the interview process that this is the last East Coast city and the first Midwest city, and that is kind of how I've experienced it.

having actually been born in Washington state, met my husband in California, but grew up primarily in Minnesota and then living in Chicago.

And that brief stint in England and in New York.

So, it has some of the history and architecture that is familiar to me from my time in England and in the East coast.

And then the friendliness, the openness.

I find that the hard working nature of people I feel at home as a midwesterner.

Well, we're glad to hear that.

And that's a very interesting way of describing Rochester, the last East Coast and the first Midwest city.

Yeah, geographically, that makes sense.

That's interesting.

I want to ask you a little bit, and we're not going to spend the whole hour on Bishop Buddy's sermon, but certainly that is, has drawn national headlines, and listeners are probably familiar with it.

but I if you're not, I'd like to just listen to about a minute and a half from that sermon.

So this is, a portion of that sermon that certainly got the president's attention a couple weeks ago.

Let me make one final plea, Mr. president.

Millions have put their trust in you.

And as you told the nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving God.

In the name of our God.

I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country.

And we're scared now.

There are gay, lesbian and transgender children in Democratic, Republican and independent families, some who fear for their lives and the people, the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who labor and poultry farms and meatpacking plants, who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospitals, they they may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals.

They pay taxes and are good neighbors.

They are faithful members of our churches and mosques, synagogues.

Ladera and temples.

I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away, and that you help those who are fleeing war zones and persecution in their own lands to find compassion and welcome here.

The president and the vice president said that that sermon crossed the line.

Do you think it crossed the line?

I don't think it did.

It was a sermon.

and I hope people listen to the whole thing, because the majority of it was addressed to the whole of the American people and covered, all the things we need to do to be unified, to respect the dignity of human being, to be honest, to have humility.

And that final play of compassion.

It's not unusual for a sermon, actually to address someone individually.

If it's a funeral or a wedding or a baptism.

so in that way, it was a little unusual.

but it was not Partizan.

It was not, pointing blame, but rather holding up, as we are called to do as Christians.

the voices of those who were not at the table and not at the service.

and reminding the president of his of his duty and responsibility, which he had just promised to uphold.

So I don't.

Of course, it was perceived as partizan.

but, I've know many, preachers who, preach what they feel to be the call of Jesus in the scriptures, whatever the political party that is in power.

and it's always we always are called to call, civil authorities, to a higher standard.

the white House, the new white House, of which it was just hours old at the time of that sermon, announced right away that the federal government will only be recognizing two genders, male and female.

And so and that is very much, part of the, Republican Party.

The current Republican Party is platform.

So when the bishop refers to people who are scared, perhaps people in the LGBTQ community.

is that inherently?

I'm not saying this in a way that is judgmental one way or the other.

I'm just asking you if that is not inherently partizan.

Given the nature of American politics right now.

I guess, it's fair to say that right now, in a Democratic led state, we have people who are hungry.

And I think that is the same call.

to say we have people that are hungry.

That isn't right.

so, yes.

I guess I would say it's a political statement.

I don't think it's Partizan, because regardless of who's in power, the reality that there are food deserts is a reality.

And we are political people by the nature of being citizens.

do you think the sermon was courageous?

Sure it was.

I think it's always scary to to preach, and I I've learned this in a new way.

Now, preaching to people I don't know each Sunday.

Whereas I came from a parish where I knew pretty much everyone in the pews.

And so it is a different thing.

not knowing how your message will be received.

And I think in particular, I think what Marianne, buddy, if she had any regrets, is that when something is perceived as Partizan, then people don't hear the message that you were intending, and that's hard.

So I know I've been talking to some of my priests who say I can't use this word climate change.

I have to talk about it in a different way, because as soon as people hear that word, they shut down or they think I'm saying one thing or another thing.

and that isn't the the total message.

It might be about care of creation, and it gets lost because of those words.

That kind of push people's buttons.

That's interesting.

I mean, I guess we could just talk about wildfires.

We could talk about sea level rise.

We've talked about people losing their homes.

but if you say climate change, you lose some people.

Okay.

I take the point.

What would do you think you would have made a similar marks in a sermon if you had the opportunity with the president of the vice president in the pews.

I would hope so.

I would hope that I would do the same.

I every preacher looks, I think, at the scriptures and the newspaper essentially, or the newspaper of our lives and says, what is this Scripture have to do with the here and now?

And so you can't help but make those connections and and so that's a frequent happening and preaching.

But there are also times when people, for instance, after a wild fire where you just have to remind people of the good that's out there and the people doing their everyday jobs that make a difference in the world.

And you do have to do sermons of comfort as well.

Not always political.

Sure.

and then let me also ask you about the importance of, challenge.

Challenging may not be the right word in this context, but but, pushing people in power and not just sort of acting subservient all the time.

My opinion is that the president and the vice president's reaction was rather childish.

I don't care, how you voted listeners, I really don't.

I think that we all need thicker skin.

I certainly need thicker skin at times.

And trust me, with your emails, I developed one.

I'm sure the bishop has developed a thick skin, and that's when you're public facing.

That's part of the job.

so I thought the president and the vice president had a pretty silly and childish reaction, almost as if the president now believes if someone is challenging me.

What?

I won an election.

You know, am I not king?

So, I don't think that's healthy.

And I think that we all need to be able to challenge the president.

Joe.

Joe Biden needed to be challenged.

Donald Trump needs to be challenged.

His ideas need to be challenged.

policies need to be challenged.

The way they govern needs to be challenged.

Doesn't matter.

Your party.

Having said that, do you think the president's response to the bishop was appropriate?

as a person, he could have any response he wanted, which is he felt personally attacked.

as the president, it was inappropriate.

Like you said, we all have to have our I call it an emotional raincoat.

and, and try to hear what she was actually saying.

and respond in that way.

I think as, as Christians, we have a long history of speaking truth to power.

our Hebrew scriptures makes up most of our Scripture, and that's filled with prophets.

And I think people have an idea that prophets were people who predicted the future.

But really, those prophets were people who spoke the truth about the reality of today.

And what would happen if we didn't pay attention to it.

And so, yes, Marianne.

But his sermon was prophetic in that way.

This is the truth about the people I know who are scared right now.

and, and some people will listen and some people will not.

The reason we have those words of the prophets is not because they were popular or listened to in their time, but because later they said, oh, they warned us and we didn't listen.

And so, there are always ways in our lives when we need to speak prophetically.

Were you watching live when that was happening or I was not?

I watched it later that afternoon.

So pretty soon after.

Were you nervous for the Bishop?

And anyway.

No.

I, I know Marianne as a colleague.

and I, and as a I'm a new bishop.

She's an experienced bishop.

she had confronted, Trump before.

Over, when the, Black Lives Matter Plaza was cleared of protesters and he stood in front of one of our Episcopal churches with the Bible upside down.

And she had spoken out about that.

So, no, I think, she reminded me of Esther in the Bible, who, as you might know, was the wife of the king who speaks up for her own people and and so we have this idea that each of us are in a certain place at a certain time, and we're given the opportunity to speak.

it's not like everyone can be a hero, but we all have those moments in our lives when our presence and the knowledge we have about reality makes a difference.

The bishop may be relieved to know we're not just going to talk about this president for the entire hour.

you do bring up him holding up the Bible upside down in what?

To many people, I think realistically looked like a pretty crass photo op.

What do you think the impact is when presidents hug the Bible?

They claim to refer to the Bible, but pretty clearly haven't read it.

hold it upside down.

What is the cultural impact of that?

I actually wish presidents wouldn't say God bless America.

I know that sounds terrible, but really, that isn't the job of the president to be a religious figure.

I, I think I think we have a lot of issues with the separation of church and state in, in our country.

things that people always think about as a problem politically.

I think of it more, having been, the Anglican Church, it was the established religion in England and was pretty much, in the initial time of our country's founding.

A lot of those founders were Episcopalian, were Anglicans, and that isn't good for a church when we're in bed with the state, because we, shy away from, making the statements that we need to make.

I have an unpopular opinion that, churches should pay property taxes and support the community in that way.

I don't know if I would ever get that to happen.

I mean, it's it's pretty unpopular.

but I think churches should have to prove that they're a common good in order.

No, atheists think that's a very popular idea.

Yeah.

Not a lot of bishops.

Well, I think we need to stand by our standards, which is, that, we want to have the freedom to, do the ministry that we've been called to it.

You know, in several cities, it's illegal to feed people on the street that that's a problem, because that's one of the things that many of our churches do on a regular basis feed people, clothe people, give people shelter.

help people through addiction and grief and other things.

And so all the ways in which that gets enmeshed with public life, and confused with government, is not good for either government or religion.

we're talking to Bishop Carl Wagner Scherer, who is bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester, for the better part of about six months.

Six months.

Just over six months.

and enjoying her time in Rochester.

Glad to hear that.

part, you know, part and parcel to this ongoing cultural debate about, what churches should do.

What citizens should do is a debate about what it means to be Christian.

And I want to read from the National Catholic Reporter about some remarks about that, that Vice President Vance made during a Fox News interview last week.

He was essentially the broad outline of what Vice President Vance was saying is that, a lot of, in his words, leftist Christians.

And he pointed to Bishop Buddy, among others, in in his view, they are not interpreting Scripture the right way.

And he said the following quote, there is a Christian concept that you love your family, and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens.

And then after that, you prioritize the rest of the world.

A lot of the far left has completely inverted that end quote.

So Vice President Vance is saying you have to start with your family unit.

That's where your love and priority needs to be.

And then you broaden out from there that the Christian view is your family.

You love your family and your community.

Perhaps your country, the world.

And these are the leftists.

They start with the world and the family is last.

With all due respect, I don't think he's quoting scripture in my understanding.

both the Hebrew, scripture and Jesus's reminder, of that scripture is to love God first and then your neighbor as yourself.

So the order I would put it in is God.

Now, it's very hard to love something and someone something that you can't see or hear.

and I and so loving yourself is not secondary to loving others, but it's by knowing how to love ourselves.

But we are actually able to love others.

Family isn't in there at all.

there's a famous scripture when, Jesus's family is a little concerned about him and comes looking for him.

And Jesus says, who are my brothers?

And my sisters are not the people who do my will.

And he's pointing to the people around him, my family.

So the family values that he's referring to are not, are not explicit in Scripture.

I think that, they way that we know how to love God is by loving ourselves and others and we have lots of scriptures to say, who is our neighbor?

It is, yes, the person who lives next door, but it is also the person halfway across the world.

And we know, by the interconnectedness of this world, that there is nothing.

and climate is one of those things.

There is nothing we do that does not affect those very far away from us.

I think the vice president is sincere in what he's saying, and it sounds like you think so, too.

Yeah.

So how do you think we got to this point where we're so divided on what we think it even means to be Christian?

The Episcopal view of Scripture is that it is the living Word of God still speaking, which means that we don't see that Scripture has one meaning that was set before time and remains that you just have to discover and find out.

Whenever we read Scripture, particularly when we read it in community and in the context of our own lives, we interpret it.

So I think that is one of the ways American Christians have gotten divided around Scripture.

some people see it as something that is known and can be discovered and that they have the answer, as it were, to it.

And others find it as something that is a continual, questioning and learning.

and I think going back to the divisiveness in our nation, what we need more of is curiosity.

And so we need to approach Scripture in the way we approach the lives of others, in the way we approach public policy.

Curiosity, why?

Who?

What does this mean?

And the more we can do that, the less divisive I think will become.

Let me read a little bit of email here.

Chris in Geneva, listening on Finger Lakes Public Radio was says Evan, I happened to run into your guest at a Geneva coffeehouse recently.

You were in Geneva?

Yes.

It's really lovely, isn't it?

Yeah, it is great.

Chris says.

I quickly determined she would be a great replacement at Saint Peter's in Geneva.

Unfortunately, I am not Episcopalian and don't get a vote, and it may be a step down.

Still would love to see her working on our challenges in Geneva.

That's from Chris there.

So you're welcome there.

Chris says any time.

It's a it's a lovely note.

Thank you.

Yes.

Yes there is.

There's a lot to do in all our communities.

And, I enjoyed talking with him because he is a great volunteer for, the Boys and Girls Club and makes a big difference in his community.

Chris is always someone I.

Every time I get a note from Chris.

If you're listening, Chris, I'm always going.

there's really smart people who listen to this program, and it's, We appreciate that.

It's a great audience.

Charlie says, Evan Trump's reaction to the Bishop's sermon should surprise no one.

If he disagrees with you, you are immediately painted as evil or deranged or a whack job.

Leftists and to be ignored or mocked.

The bishop's sermon spoke to all the decent people in America and the world.

Those who are upset with their sermon truly need to do a deep self-check with their values and morals.

That's Charlie.

I want to try to.

I want to try to be as generous as I can, with those who might have been, unnerved by some of what Bishop Buddy said.

because culturally, everything is so heavy right now, and the culture wars such as they are, are very prevalent.

and so, let me ask you, Bishop, for if you have members who come to see you and pray with you, but say, look, I can't get all the way there.

I think, I think we do need to understand that maybe, as the white House says, there's two genders, and, we're pulling kids astray with some of of this, and we shouldn't be endorsing that from the pulpit.

And what would you say to someone in your church if they come to you with that message?

first of all, I would say that one of our jobs as preachers is to preach the good news.

And, the good news is, relief of suffering, freedom for the oppressed.

sight to the blind.

All the things that Jesus says in Luke and it it is a good reminder that good news to one person is not good news to another.

So good news for the poor is not good news for people who exploit the poor.

Good news for LGBTQ folks.

It's not good news for those who wish to hide them or deny their personhood.

so the reality is, good news is complicated.

And, I do have people who, I guess I would say more, we have people who disagree in our pews about politics, for sure, and about partizanship for sure.

Often, though, when they're met with a real person, they want the same.

We all want the same thing.

We want people to be loved.

We want people to have work.

We want people to be educated, to have food.

We disagree about how to get there.

And and so I think the best approach when we have people we disagree with is sharing our own stories and the ways in which we're working to change things for the people we love.

And so, it's it's it's just like a family disagreement you have when you have a family disagreement, you have a couple of choices.

You could just not talk about it.

You can retreat to bubbles, which unfortunately is happening in the American Christian Church.

Or you can try to be a model of respect and listening.

and, and so that's I listen to people who disagree with me and, continue to stay in relationship.

We don't get mad at people we don't love.

If you're mad at someone, and you're willing to stay in relationship, then you can have those conversations.

But if you just would rather shoot off and slam the door and walk away, the relationship will be broken.

Just one note on the way that we're bubbling.

As you say, our society is creating bubbles in ways that were never this extreme 50 years ago.

our neighborhoods are more ideologically the same, less ideologically diverse.

The news we listen to exactly, and the fragmentation of media is certainly a huge part of that.

There's very little shared experience anymore or shared consumption of media or news.

And I think that's really dangerous.

And I think we're seeing that play out.

but I also see even look at the Methodist Church.

So the Methodist Church has this worldwide split over LGBTQ issues and, and recognizing marriage and, and in our community, we saw the split.

So you've got Asbury first, and then you have other congregations that, I think that in the Global Methodist and it's become sort of the right in the left of the Methodist Church, although, I mean, I don't know if it it can't be perfectly snug like that.

I mean, even the political right is split over things like RFK and Tulsi Gabbard and all kinds of things.

So I just don't know how healthy it is to even see churches do this.

But is this happening?

And people are curious to know what the Episcopalian church has been like?

I mean, has it become more bubbled, and what do you do about that?

Yes.

So it certainly has, first, with the ordination of women or ordination of LGBTQ folks, trans folks, there are and, and sometimes, people say, this is not the Episcopal Church I grew up in.

And I say, you're right.

In some ways, the church has moved.

It used to be the Republican Party at prayer, really, in the founding of the country.

and, it has changed.

and you acknowledge that to, to them.

But they say, look, change has been difficult for me.

Yeah.

I don't understand it.

Yes.

Because I think people feel guilty because they love the church that they grew up in.

They want to be part of it.

It hurts them to say, I don't agree with this.

but they also have to stay true to what they understand about themselves and their world and their faith.

so to acknowledge that, yes, we have become more splintered and bubbled, and that and that has been a painful process in any denomination.

I think we also have to acknowledge that to be good Christians, we cannot just talk to people who agree with us.

So when I was talking about reading scripture, I mean, the people in apartheid South Africa were reading the same scriptures and deciding that it was about upholding their way of life.

They were in a closed community.

So, as painful as it is, we want to keep the tent wide.

let me grab a phone call from Roy in Rochester who's been waiting.

Hi, Roy.

Go ahead.

Okay.

Good afternoon everyone.

I came in late, but I heard a couple of things and I think that what the vice president's comments.

Now, I heard he went to Yale, and he did a lot in a number of things, but I don't think his version of the Christian message was really there.

But, you know, maybe he's making the new orthodoxy.

And when you make orthodoxies, you get heresies.

I yeah, Roy, I appreciate the call.

I will say this, regardless of what you think of the vice president, he's very smart, well-educated, is an outstanding writer.

and he's pretty clear thinker.

He does.

What I like about JD Vance is he does interviews everywhere.

Still, he's not one of these politicians who only goes on safe spaces, politically.

And that's good.

We should celebrate that part of it.

he's a very smart guy.

What do you make of Roy's point about new orthodoxies?

he actually is, he has converted to Catholicism, and I think his, But I do think the comment that you made about, we should love our family first.

I think that actually is more of a political statement than a religious statement.

It's it's what leads to America first.

is what I kind of what what what I heard, with his accusation that liberals start with the world.

I actually don't want to.

I don't want to start with the world.

I think there's many ways in which American Christians have avoided local duties by saying, let's go, you know, help those people halfway across the world and ignore the poverty at our doorstep.

So, I don't know if it's I think he's, you know, speaking as a faithful Catholic and that's his faith, but, I don't think he's creating anything new.

I think there is a way in which American religion, American Christianity, American Catholicism is different than European or African or Asian, you know, that's just the reality of our world.

a comment from the stream on YouTube, by the way, you can watch connections every day of your whole life.

Well, hoping that Saturdays and Sunday still, but, noon to two on the Sky news YouTube channel.

And Susan says, I'm grateful to hear the bishops stance on the separation of church and state.

So, yeah, I think Susan is bringing up an idea that says, I don't usually hear this from a bishop.

So, yeah, well, powerful.

You know, the Christian and the Christian religion changed dramatically when Constance Steen became a Christian.

I'm holding up air quotes for those of you on the radio.

and and became power and, you know, political power and religious power became one and the same thing.

And I think that it had made it very hard for us to follow the teachings of Jesus.

so, yeah, the separation of church and state is one of the gifts that we have as Americans.

and we should preserve it.

Do you want prayer before congressional hearings?

Do you want, prayer before the state of the Union?

I, I don't think it's necessary.

Now.

I have gotten very good at praying without mentioning the Trinity.

so kind of general prayers, but we have so many people who are, agnostic or atheist.

It doesn't seem inclusive to me.

I, we pray in our church, in our churches, we pray for the president every Sunday.

A lot of places we pray for the president by name, members of Congress, the Supreme Court.

I think it's appropriate that we pray for people.

I'm not sure.

Public prayer.

I've been we've had arguments about public school prayer.

in the same way I don't I think every politician's too scared to take it away because they'll be, accused of not being Christian.

Jane says Evan, are you are you sure your guest is not you?

You universal Unitarian?

Have you gotten that one before, Bishop?

No.

Well, you haven't asked me any questions about communion or liturgy, or or theology that essentially we've been talking about scripture.

but yes.

no, I'm a Christian.

Okay.

And you you do you have affection for you?

You sure?

I, I think, there was a movement in the 60s to kind of bring as many religious traditions together.

And I think there is value in understanding what we share.

but I understand as a believer in, God creating the world that God must really like diversity because it's all over and I do think that religious diversity is one way that I just happen to be born into the faith that works for me, that speaks to me, that helps me to pray and to care for others.

and there's a lot of there are a lot of faiths out there that can help people find those connections for themselves.

But for you, Jesus is God.

Yes.

Okay.

I mean, I, I ask because you you I mean like, right.

There's differences.

Yes.

and the Bible is the literal word of God, the inspired word, the inspired word of God.

Okay.

I know the theology is interesting, me and I, now this is where they're usually looking at me like you're way late for the only break.

But all I have had a couple of other things before we got our only break here.

Mark writes to say the bishop mentioned that there are those of us who take the Bible at its word, and others see it as something to spark discussion, question, and curiosity.

Jimmy Carter discusses this in his book Faith.

I feel that people view the Constitution the same way.

Some take the words as literal, others see it as something to be discussed and possibly a living document.

The only issue I see with literal interpretation of both is that people forget they were both written in and of a different time.

There are things in both, that don't and shouldn't be that aren't and shouldn't be applied.

Now, that's from Mark.

What do you think?

Yes, I would say that about Scripture.

We've forgotten.

I was just speaking at a synagogue, where, where he talked about Moses.

And when he goes up on the mountain to receive the commandments, his face shown, and it was mistranslated in, by Jerome to say he had horns.

And that stereotype of Jews still existed.

And so that's the problem of taking things literally when you have human people putting them forward.

And look at our Constitution, I had the privilege of going to South Africa, where they keep revising their constitution.

it might need a look at because we continue to have arguments about what what it actually means for today.

And now was Jimmy Carter, too, religious, outwardly religious during his presidency for you?

what I'm remember most about Jimmy Carter's that his daughter had a tree house.

so that was kind of my first political awareness.

Yeah, I think just looking back.

Yeah.

Understanding how I mean, he was he went on to become a Sunday school teacher.

Yes.

I would say he was.

Well, I think he was before he was in Sunday school, too.

And before and after.

Yeah.

That's right.

I would say he was an appropriate, Christian in the white House who understood the separation of church and state and his own moral values, guided certainly his decisions and, and his policies.

and, so I think he's a good example of, of, of Christian service and, and certainly a faithful Jewish person or faithful Hindu, would be able to do the same thing.

So after we take this only break, finally we're going to come back and talk about, one of the things that is facing all really all denominations, which, as my colleague Brian Sharp wrote about in City magazine recently, half of Monroe County residents said they belong to a church in 1980, barely one third do today.

that's not a surprise.

That's, numbers of church attendance across denominations down across the country.

We know that, and this comes at a time where loneliness is on the rise.

People are self-reporting higher levels of depression and, mental health struggles.

And we're not parts of communities like we used to be.

When we look at a church as one example, it's not the only example.

So when we come back, we're going to talk to the bishop about that, how you maybe grow or regrow parts of the church.

I know it's important.

I want to talk about issues like immigration and a lot more, and we are grateful for the time with Bishop Carl Wagner Scherer, who is the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester.

We're right back on connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Wednesday on the next connections, we talked to doctor Joanne Pedro Carroll.

She is a child psychologist who consulted on a new animated film called spellbound.

The film, a big Hollywood production with themes that are important for kids.

And we're going to talk to Doctor Pedro Carroll about that in our second hour.

The Chautauqua Institution, a regional landmark turning 150 years old, talk with you Wednesday.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson if you read Brian Sharp's piece in city in the current issue called State of the church, he writes about congregational numbers falling and the future of Rochester's oldest public building, which is beautiful, by the way, looking at a Sunday service at two Saints there a great picture from Roberta Philippe Lager and City.

But Brian writes about how attendance has declined.

And, how different things are compared to really a generation or two ago.

And I know you see that, and not just in Rochester, I'm sure.

so what have you observed?

And when you talk to people in Rochester and you want to understand the history of the church here and attendance and who's showing up and who isn't.

What's the story that you're seeing?

I would say my experience is or I believe that everybody is spiritual.

Not everyone pays attention to it.

And I think the lack of, people in the pews has to do with people not finding what they need.

necessarily in those pews.

But that doesn't mean they don't look for it elsewhere, whether it be, meditation or community or, public service.

so, and at the same time, there's been a huge shift in just cultural expectation of attendance.

So I think that's kind of the main reason.

and the fact that, just language and culture of most of the mainline denominations are for white middle class Americans, and that isn't the majority.

How so though?

Because that, just like that, we're a country of and by the people these congregate these, long time religious movements were born of the people that set up the churches and built the churches and made the rules and decided who was welcome and wrote the Bible.

That's not Americans.

And that is why that's still so powerful, is that it isn't, it's ancient.

I think there are things we can, get in church that we can't get other places.

It's one of the last places that you can have inter, age conversations where you can talk to people different ages from you, different walks of life from you, different maybe political opinions from you.

it is, I think that, it is a way that people can channel their gifts and their passions and, do that with others and make a difference in the world.

But that's harder to do by yourselves.

so I do think it is.

It's not wrong to go to church because you're lonely or sad.

I mean, a church is, in a way, a hospital for the soul.

So the people go because they need something.

but what I'm talking to people about who do remember the days when the pews were full.

And there is a sadness in that?

but I continually, remind people that the Episcopal idea of a parish which is similar to a Roman Catholic idea of a parish, is that we're really the church is kind of the last institution that exists for those people who don't belong.

Our real mission is for everyone in the community.

And so what matters to me is not how many people are in the seats, but how many people were serving outside of those seats.

And how are you trying to serve outside?

many of our places, like I said, have some kind of social service component.

They might do meals, they might help, with, we have, ministries for migrants.

it has become a ministry of the Episcopal Church to welcome LGBTQ, particular trans people.

A safe place to be part of something.

it's also a safe place for skeptics and questioners.

For UU person.

Yeah.

You you would be a great place to go for that.

To people interested in asking the questions and learning and growing in their spiritual life and as people and less about, having all the answers, for everyone.

So I think there's there's lots of ways in which we are, both a light, but also, public servants in the public square.

I think I've really softened, my, I don't know, old age, middle age.

when I think about the value of community and finding it almost, almost anywhere, I mean, there's certainly some communities that are not great, but, you don't want to be part of things that are violent or bigoted, etc., but, you know, I, I was baptized Presbyterian, a family that didn't go to church.

And then I converted to Catholicism.

When am I when I was 14 or 15 and was a retreat leader in high school.

And then had a pastor in college.

Tell me that no one really loves you except God, not even your parents.

And don't don't think you understand love.

And I thought, okay, that was an interesting message, you know, and I was too young to realize, like, that's one flawed pastor, but, you know, drifted toward atheism.

or, you know, I, I used to like when I was really egotistical, I used to say, now I'm a spiritual existentialist.

How do you like that?

I like it, it's awful, isn't it?

We have a lot of those.

Is there anything?

Is there is there really anything more arrogant than that?

But the older I get, the more I think, when the when the pews are empty, it is reflective of the fact that a lot of communities are empty, you know, even religious or otherwise.

And we're just not connected to each other in neighborhood associations and block parties, in churches and temple and mosque and and we're not attending and we're not seeing people.

And I don't know what to do with that, but I want to ask you what you think could get people more connected.

How do you inspire people to do it?

I think there's two ways.

one is is really just to get to know your community, like meeting with you.

I've met with the mayor and the representatives.

Just like, what is the biggest issue in this community?

We need to know what it is.

So part of it's just looking outward.

and it's also being, it's it's going with the people in the pews and the gifts that they have.

Often the people in our pews are also the people who run, who volunteer at public radio or the Y or, you know, they are people who are community connectors.

and so, I'm encouraging people to if you don't see kids in your pews, what it is, what is it that parents and kids need?

And maybe it's not on Sunday morning, maybe it's a class about how to protect your kid on social media.

Maybe it's, homework help.

Maybe whatever it is, a cooking class.

Those are the things that we get involved in so that people can find community.

Does that get more people in the pews?

Maybe.

Maybe not.

It doesn't matter what we're doing is connecting people and reaching people.

And that and that is the, the, the purpose of church.

Are you worried that in the future, decades in the future or sooner, churches will go away?

I don't think church buildings, a lot of church buildings will go away for sure.

But the church, because of attendance and numbers?

Yes.

Money.

Money.

I mean, you need people are building and money, right?

But if you if you don't have money, you can keep going for a long time.

If you don't have a building, you can go even longer.

If you don't have people, you don't have a church.

Yeah.

So I mean, the physical buildings, are we going to physical, physical buildings?

Oh, sure.

Probably.

but as long as people are doing the work of their faith, the gospel, the good news will continue.

let me grab a phone call, and I think we have Gail, on line one.

Hey, Gail.

Go ahead, please.

Hi.

this is how.

Oh, hell, no.

No.

Go ahead.

Gail, my wife, and she's sort of cheering me on here, so, well, first, Unitarian Universalist, association affiliated church member for, many decades.

And Gail and I married and, a Unitarian Universalist church.

And secondly, I thought what the bishop did, speaking truth to power, especially, moral message, kindness, empathy and understanding, was heroic and, as, my, Timothy Schneider or Professor Timothy Snyder of Yale University and on tyranny, would say, clearly the most important thing is not to obey in advance.

That is, most power of authoritarianism is freely given.

People are at times like these, as she says, they think about about, and the effects on them, speaking out rather than speaking their honest feelings.

So thank you for being on the show today.

I'm a, continuing supporter of psi sustainer and then a small degree and, I think Evan Dawson, is totally awesome as hell.

I gotta cut you off there, man.

We're going to lose the election.

That is really know how.

That is so lovely to both you and Gail.

Thank you.

There's no such thing as a small sustainer.

That's a wonderful community of members.

I'll give you a take.

30s.

We're gonna try to squeeze a lot in the last few minutes, but anything you want to add to Hal's points there?

No.

Thank you.

And thank you for your faithfulness.

hell, that is that is great.

And it really touches the whole staff here.

So thank you for that.

Whalen writes on attendance.

It seems that certain pastors have leverage the entertainment spectacle and authoritative paternal leaders have generated large congregations with donations and merchandizing.

that's from Whalen, who says he's a PK, thinking of returning to the Episcopal Church while listening to this bishop.

And after hearing Bishop buddy, that is one thing, that gift that I think the Episcopal Church has, which is a very ancient tradition, the way that we worship is embodied.

So we stand, we sit, we kneel, we have incense, we have, bread and wine and water.

there is it's not a gimmick.

It it is, what what we think of as the sacraments are, what makes the truth real to us.

So a good example is when you get married and say, I love you, and I do on that day, that's not when your love started.

That already started.

This is about public witness and worship every week for us, especially in the act of communion where we take one piece of bread and we break it among everyone, and everyone is welcome, and no one is turned away, and no one gets more than anyone else.

And we don't even ever throw that any.

If there's leftovers, it never goes in the trash.

It goes back to the earth.

That is part of our theology of creation, that every everyone is welcome and all is shared.

And so that is something you can get in church that you don't get anywhere else.

I meant to spend more time on this and the music's going to play.

So let me just close with this and you can take about 40s.

It's got to be tight.

what do you sing with immigration?

And as a church leader?

As a faith leader, how do you see that issue right now?

We see it as a, a right, a separation of church and state and, and, I don't have religious rights thing.

We, feed people and care for people, and we don't ask if they have documents, and we need to be able to continue to do that.

And we will.

And, our churches are working hard to to continue to welcome everyone who comes to our doors.

Are you worried that ice or otherwise are going to even be in churches?

We've been informing ourselves about our rights and, you know, we're not going to lie or inhibit, but we will, we will, stand for those who need us to stand up for them.

Will you come in here with, with with some regularity?

Would you come back to this program?

I would love to.

Bishop, I've had such a great hour, and I didn't even get to everything I wanted to talk about, which is just a testament to what a great conversationalist you are.

And our listeners are clearly touched by your message.

So thank you for being here.

Thank you so much for having me.

And that is Bishop Cora Wagner Shear, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester.

From all of us, the connections.

Thank you for listening.

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