From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made over the weekend when voters in Germany chose a new government.

For days, the buzz had focused on how well the far right German AfD party would do.

After getting support from both American Vice President JD Vance and from Elon Musk.

The AfD ended up coming in second.

Around 20% of the vote historically high for the party, but not enough to force their way into a governing coalition.

Instead, German conservatives won the election, and they will be led by the next chancellor, Friedrich Merz, who has never held office before.

The conservative Merz did not hold back at taking multiple shots at American President Donald Trump.

I'll quit Reuters now.

Friedrich Merz vowed to help give Europe real independence from the United States.

Merz is set to become chancellor, with German security caught between a confrontational U.S. and an assertive Russia and China.

Merz took aim at the US in blunt remarks after his victory, criticizing the outrageous comments flowing from Washington during the campaign, comparing them to hostile interventions from Russia, end quote.

Here's what Merz said about Trump after his party's victory.

Quote, we are under such massive pressure from two sides that my absolute priority now is to achieve unity in Europe.

It is possible to create unity in Europe.

We will strengthen Europe as quickly as possible so that we can achieve real independence from the USA step by step, end quote.

And Merz went on to say that NATO will be strong, even if it has to take a different form.

His implication was clear Europe cannot count on the Trump administration.

Denmark prime minister met to Frederiksen said last week that Denmark has to dramatically increase military spending.

Concern that Russia could start other wars in Europe, and wanting to make sure Denmark could protect itself while still supporting Ukraine.

The Prime Minister said, quote, there is one message for our chief of defense.

Bye bye bye.

If we can't get the best equipment, buy the next best.

There's only one thing that counts.

Now, and that is speed.

End quote.

Journalist Michael Weiss notes that Denmark also set aside resources to reinforce Greenland's defenses, as Russia has raised its military profile in the Arctic.

While President Trump has said that the United States should own Greenland.

In just one month, American alliances have been turned upside down.

We talked a lot last hour specifically about Ukraine.

This hour, my guest is a Western New Yorker who has spent years working on democratic movements in Europe.

Doctor Valerie Perry is a senior associate with the Democratization Policy Council.

Valerie, welcome back to the program.

Thanks for making time.

Hi.

Of and thanks for the invitation.

And you're located in the Balkans.

Tell us a little bit more about for for listeners who don't know what the Democratization Policy Council is.

Tell us more about, the organization and your work.

Sure.

the Democratization Policy Council was conceived of during the time of the wars in the former Yugoslavia in the mid 90s and then consolidated, a few years after the wars ended.

And the reason it came together was the interest in supporting the development of rights based democratic systems based on accountability, good governance and, positive citizen involvement in the in the conduct of the state.

because one of the things that many people began to see was that everybody in the world system could be richer and more secure in a more reliable and predictable rights based system.

democracies generally don't go to war with other democracies.

The more democratic countries there are, the richer they have all been together.

And so the DPC was formed to really promote these values and to, seek out and work with people who share these values, work with parliamentarians who are looking to support these values and to try to, increase the strength and number of countries that we could say are, you know, imperfect, but generally, democratic systems.

the past several years, though, we have found increasingly that there's a need to look at the so called consolidated democracies, including the United States, as a number of the cracks.

So within the democratic systems in those other countries, have been, more and more visible.

and of course, following the election for the second time of, President Donald Trump, we and a number of our colleagues, a number of people we know throughout the region of the former Yugoslavia.

I'm based in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

everybody had been looking for alarm, with alarm at what might happen with the second Trump administration.

And there were some, cautious optimists who were saying that he had just been saying what he needed to say to win and that he would never act on everything he had said.

but there were a lot of people who were really worried about what he would do after January 20th.

And and I'm sorry to say that I think that the alarmists were right, because we've definitely seen, since, January 20th and 21st, a rollback of many of the very institutions, rules, contracts, etcetera, that are on the basis of a democratic society, that are having a huge impact in the United States, but also a really big trickle out impact globally.

Well, and Doctor Perry has written, well, I mean, does a lot of work in these spheres, but, has written several essays, and there's one that stands out that we're going to post in the show notes.

If you want to access, this program, in its podcast form.

So you can read more about, Doctor Perry's work on this, because we're not going to be able to cover everything this hour is going to fly.

Listeners will continue to share some of your feedback as we talk about, these various issues, again, related to some of what we talked about last hour and now sort of broadening out to Europe.

And I want to start in Germany, if we could.

Valerie, I mean, you know, certainly I am not a scholar on German politics, but when when you've got, an ascendant far right party that gets a historical high around 20%, albeit not enough to kind of force its way into a governing coalition.

And you have a conservative winning group that gets 28%, and the next chancellor is talking about how, hey, NATO is going to be okay even if it's in a different form, kind of implying maybe the United States isn't involved, or maybe, maybe we need to be independent of the United States.

Maybe we need to stop relying on them.

it was blunt, at least in my ears.

How did you hear all of that?

Sure.

I mean, there had been a lot of concerns that the far right party, the AfD, would do even better than it did, and the fact that it did not made a lot of people, breathe a sigh of relief.

they did the best in the former East Germany, which has been economically, depressed for some time.

And where we've seen some of these, more right wing movements, gain some speed.

but what's also quite interesting is that in addition to the Christian Democrats and Olmert's, coming, coming out on top, when you look at one of the left parties, which has been quite small, they got almost 10% and about 60 seats.

but even more interesting is that they got almost 30% of first time voters, showing that while we're seeing some of the same parties, such as Murtha's party, continue to do well.

And while we're seeing the AfD, continue to do well, though not as well as some had anticipated they may do.

we're also seeing other, shifts going on, which represents really, an interest and a desire among especially the young and something new feeling that the system and the parties they've been seeing for so long have not been working for them.

I think a lot of people, myself included, were really shocked when we heard what Vice President Vance, said when he was at Munich for the conference about a week and a half ago.

and then as well with, Elon Musk's comments basically supporting the AfD.

I mean, this is shocking.

it's shocking to do this among mainstream parties, but certainly to do it in the way they did.

And the notion of any American lecturing a group of Europeans in Munich, on what is democracy?

was was seen as offensive by many, many people.

but it's interesting to ponder whether or not that kind of intrusion and hubris, could have actually helped people to sort of come out and vote if they might not have been ready to do so.

in terms of Merton's strong and immediate words, I have to be honest, I was glad to hear them.

I think that there needs to be resolve coming, from Europe and, Germany lacking resolve would would be bad for the continent in general.

the fact that he basically staked out his position immediately, I think, was necessary.

it's a good prelude to what we're going to be seeing, this week with Francis Macron and the UK, Starmer making separate visits to Washington to meet with the Trump administration.

And, and one thing that we've seen is that, President Trump plays bully politics.

He likes to, shake down, adversaries.

he sees everything as a real estate deal, a winner and a loser.

there.

And and he's not as great of a negotiator as he may think.

And we saw that in terms of how he's already selling out the Ukrainians, as you were speaking about in the first hour.

And and I think that, unfortunately, the terrible wake up call that Europe got, both in Munich, but then also with this latest embrace of, Vladimir Putin in Russia by Donald Trump, in terms of taking Moscow's, basic side in terms of not only, strategies and ideas for moving forward, but in marginalizing Ukraine from even being at the table and even more, embarrassingly, embracing the misinformation that Ukraine was somehow to blame for the invasion of its own country some years ago.

So I think that the resolve, is good.

It's a good first step.

but it's it's a tough first step because even though Trump has not pulled the United States out of NATO as he's toyed with in the past, you really have to wonder what kind of future NATO can have when Europe is suddenly wondering how they can possibly trust anything coming out of Washington.

Well, and and so now I'm left to wonder.

And I don't know if we know for sure, but, I mean, I want to get your read on some of the direction that we're seeing, with these far right movements.

So I used the word ascendant for AfD because they get 20%.

That's the best they've ever done.

And that is a remarkable number.

given their history and given, you know, sort of German politics.

But you're also telling us that, yeah, there was concern that they could do even better than that.

And there was a little bit of a sigh of relief for those who didn't want to see AfD do that.

Well, we saw, you know, in elections in France in the last year, maybe, you know, coalitions form against far right movements to deny them power in France.

And so there are these far right movements across the globe popping up.

They have a lot in common.

They're not always the same.

But are they truly ascendant?

Are they reaching a ceiling, or do you think that there's still a threat in in various places here?

Valerie.

I think one thing that we're really seeing is a dissatisfaction with the large, mushy center that has dominated politics in a lot of the established democracies, going back to the end of the Cold War, sometimes called the Third way, or other sort of middle ground centrist politics that we saw under Tony Blair, we saw ushered in with the Clinton administration in the US, and even Angela merkel, in many ways, even though she was also with the CDU in Germany, was really sort of holding a more moderate line in support of the, globalization of economies.

The, business as usual in terms of democracy back home and a lot of the really big economic shifts that we saw, coming after the end of the Cold War.

And so I think a lot of the dissatisfaction, that we've been seeing, which has led to the rise of the far right, reflects does dissatisfaction with the center.

now, in Europe in particular, we've seen a number of countries that have had green parties, that have had a very, left not only but generally left leaning environmental focus.

And they've tended to be a bit smaller and sometimes would get into government to, different coalition deals.

but we are starting to again, like I mentioned, see some parties on the left.

And, and this really should be a loud signal to the political elites anywhere who have been in power for some time of just how much dissatisfaction there is.

when you look at the United States and the election in November, I mean, it's been painted as a massive, a win for the Republicans for Trump's MAGA movement.

But in fact, it's not that's a narrative that does not really stand scrutiny when you look at the numbers.

it did not I mean, Trump did not win 50%, so he did not get a majority.

While there were certainly wins in the House of Representatives, in the Senate, it was none of it was as stark as what we've seen in other countries.

And, and I think that's important to point out, because the narrative that we've been hearing from, the Trump administration and the people who speak for him have been trying to change history by making Americans think it was an overwhelming, historical mandate when it was far from it.

So at the times when I'm the most concerned and depressed, I try to keep that in my pocket.

in terms of something to, give us hope.

Now it's interesting.

I think one of the pieces of evidence that Trump himself wanted even bigger margins is that at CPAC this weekend, he told another sort of lie about elections on stage.

He said that he actually got, tens of millions of more votes in the 2024 election that were counted.

And then it was the rigging against him continued.

He just had enough, in the actual counted votes to win.

But the real margin was tens upon tens of millions of votes more, which, of course, is baloney, but it's an indication that he understands his actual margin was really, really thin.

It was a plurality, that majority.

So, Exactly.

No.

And I think, I mean, we all know that.

We know that that's how he is.

What's troubling is when different parts of the media ecosystem don't necessarily fracture fact check any of what he's saying or might be going along with, promoting and disseminating these lies.

mentioning CPAC, I think one other comment I would make in terms of your questions and, statements about the far right in general, they are very well organized, and we've seen this for a number of years.

I mean, CPAC, you know, started out years ago to bring together, conservatives in the United States.

And that flavor of conservatism has in itself changed over time.

but it's also starting to take on more of an international flair.

you'll see more, people from different far right countries and, parties, I should say, from various countries attending such events to sort of bring together like a network of people who are thinking along these lines.

And that's for me.

what's a quite troubling trend?

Because these and again, ideology is ideology.

You can disagree on different ways of organizing society, on different ways to approach policy.

but what we see quite consistently is that far right movements, seek to gain and consolidate power, not by winning the argument about policy and ways forward, but by limiting or distorting the vote, by spreading mis and disinformation, by, very tactical gerrymandering and, by wielding the levers of power and money once they have it, including in some cases by changing the constitution, which, of course, is something that we've seen in Hungary but is really just out of the, autocrats playbook.

You recently wrote about the new identity politics, particularly, in the United States.

I'm thinking about that comes interestingly, as you write, complete with a movement's name, with symbols, with sort of in-group winks and nods.

And, you know, the irony, of course, is that so much of the culture war that has sprung up in this country has framed it as well.

You know, this right leaning movement is tired of identity politics, and identity politics is associated with the political left.

And, and and so I wonder if you could explain a little bit more about how you see actual identitarian movements and, along with, you know, how do you think that they should be understood or dealt with?

Sure.

I mean, there's a lot of different ways to look at these identity based movements.

in, in Europe, the far right is very often defined by what can only be described as white nationalism.

and this feeds into and grows from, anti-immigrant, anti-immigrant sentiment.

anti non-Christian religions, the decline of church attendance, all of these different cultural war, issues.

You would see, throughout different countries in Europe.

and we're seeing more and more of that in the United States as well.

I mean, you can see that, on steroids, when you see some people who are basically calling, for of white nationalist movements, Christian nationalist movements, etc., but the more broad based MAGA movement, I think, is not so grounded necessarily in that specific ideology in terms of an intellectual way, but has bought into the spectacle, has bought into, the rallies and the feeling that someone, some elite is listening to them and that they are listening to the same music and that they're all there, and the waving the flag and that they're getting a seat at the table, that they feel that they've been denied.

but what I think is going to really be an interesting test in the United States of, Donald Trump's administration.

And the Republicans who have fallen in line behind him is going to come out once there starts to be more discussions about budget priorities.

I think it's not a huge surprise that coming out of the gates, with a series of executive orders, coming out right and left, there was a large focus on culture, quote unquote, culture war issues, whether that would be issues related to this Dei boogeyman that we now see, whether that's related to, who can play what sports in high schools, whether that would be related to different issues like that.

and then, of course, the destruction of USAID, to take on foreign aid, which has been something that's been misunderstood by, the average American for years.

but there hasn't been any movement on the economic issues.

There hasn't been any movement saying that, unions should be stronger to help the people.

There hasn't been any effort to talk about living wage.

There hasn't been any effort to look at pensions, health care, etc.

and that's telling because that's where the cleavages between the MAGA base, the people you see wearing the red hats and the Wall Street project 2025 type people who have a very different agenda and who have a chance still to benefit what could really be termed as the biggest bait and switch in American political life.

We're talking to Doctor Valerie Perry.

Valerie is a senior associate with the Democratization Policy Council, based in the Balkans.

And, Doctor Perry is from western New York, from our area here, but now has been doing work for years on these issues related to democratic movements in Europe.

And we welcome your feedback, listeners.

If you've got questions, comments, etc., at 844295 talk, it's toll free 8442958255263 WXXI if you're in Rochester 2639994, you can email the program connections at skywalk.

I want to spend some time talking about corruption and what happens when we become sort of inured to it.

and I want to mention two examples that stand out.

I was listening to a conversation with a guy who was on this program a couple of years ago.

His name is Zeke Fox, and he wrote a book about cryptocurrency, and he's a really interesting crypto journalist, and he has been chronicling how Donald Trump and his associates have been using cryptocurrency to pump up their their own coffers.

So one example is just a few days before the inauguration last month, the new Trump meme coin comes out, and then Melania Trump has her own meme coin, and Donald Trump becomes overnight, a crypto billionaire.

Now, of course, the story with these, as it always is with it was crypto is the number goes up, up, up, up, up.

A lot of people buy it.

It's very speculative.

Then it hits a wall and the bottom comes out.

You know Bitcoin's doing fine, but there's a ton of meme coins that have collapsed like this.

But the person receiving, you know, person on the kind of the receiving end like Trump, you know, gets rich pretty quick or richer.

So that's going on.

And Zeke Fox is saying this should be a huge story, because when people are buying Trump coins, he's getting a cut.

And there are literally very influential or people who want to be influential with government, they're spending tens of millions of dollars literally putting money directly in Donald Trump's pocket with this meme coin, which is just worth, you know, which is kind of a silly nothing.

And then there's the story of how Donald Trump, who plays a lot of golf, probably the most golf of any president in history, he loves golf.

He wants to unite the PGA tour in the live tour.

So these world golf tours that have been warring over Saudi money, well, Donald Trump wants to bring them together.

And one of the results is that we're hearing he wants more tournaments on Trump golf courses.

So he and the Trump courses will benefit.

And nobody seems to care.

It's just that, wow, the Trump meme coin isn't that funny?

Oh, he's a crypto.

But I'm just trying to picture what happens if Kamala Harris or Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden put out a Biden coin and in a week, Hunter Biden and Joe Biden were crypto billionaires, not millionaires, billionaires, or that Joe Biden wanted his golf courses to get more events.

So he was going to negotiate with the Saudis and with these golf tours.

And I think people just don't care.

They're kind of just like, yeah, well, you know, it's Trump and Trump.

And I wonder what you make of some of that.

I mean, those are just a couple of small examples.

There's more.

But what this moment of kind of normalizing corruption means, Valerie.

Sure.

No, I mean, it's it's bad.

do you remember I mean, back in 2016, there were so much, very, well-intentioned talk about the Emoluments Clause and how to make sure that this could be, enforced and to try to protect against conflicts of interest, etc.. And Trump more or less got away with all of it then and so realize you can push these boundaries now.

So not only are he and many in his his family and staff, I mean, Elon Musk certainly is not disclosing, his, conflicts of interest, etc.

it's just a free for all.

And it's not a coincidence at the same time as deals like the ones you described are being, put together and negotiated in handshake deals by, wealthy oligarchs in other countries, that we're seeing the Trump administration completely strip away the laws and, institutions and watchdogs that should be preventing such corruption.

Now, I know that a lot of people, including a lot of your listeners, would probably think, oh, Valerie, come on.

Politicians have always been corrupt.

And, you know, you're right.

They have, but guardrails make a difference.

let's remember that just under the Biden administration, we had the prosecution of Menendez.

We had the prosecute the case build against, Mayor Adams in New York City and several other high profile cases.

So we saw that this was happening and this was against you know, the their own party, leading me to be frustrated when I hear people talk about the supposed, politicization of the Justice Department under Biden.

I mean, we can already see that not only is that not happening against people who might deserve scrutiny, but that the idea of a pardon is being used as a political tool.

we've also seen that different, domestic, tools such as different inspectors general, which should be overseeing these issues, different transparency requirements that should be ensuring that there's some sunlight, different foreign, corrupt foreign, different acts to try to prevent the doing of business by American firms with foreign firms that are corrupt are all being stripped, or canceled to, to use their language.

and while many good journalists are in fact writing about this, I don't I feel that there's not enough discussion of why this matters at the local level and in terms of local journalism and what the impact is.

creating a system where more and more elites and wealthy are able to capture more and more, of the economy and not only exacerbates the inequality that we've seen emerge in the U.S and elsewhere, which I would also argue has decreased the quality of democracy and led to the rise of the right in particular.

but it also basically makes it easier and easier, for these same people to use their money to have influence in politics and continually change the rules of the game.

and that is also something that we're going to see.

and we've seen this in other parts of the world as well.

it's very interesting.

Just a couple hours away from, me, one of the most interesting protest movements going on right now globally is happening in Serbia, where students have been protesting, for, for weeks, even even months, with increasing numbers and increasing clarity because of their frustration at the endemic corruption in their society that they see is affecting their futures, that is resulting in the deaths of people when, contracts go sour and construction is shoddily done and and they're demanding dignity.

And so that's been something that's been heartening to see.

will it be successful?

we don't know yet.

seeing the new government in Germany, seeing the way Europe is suddenly seeing that they need to think about a future where the U.S is not not only not an ally or friend, but is a foreign part of a foreign entity that cannot be trusted.

I'm hoping that they will find a way to support these students who are really just saying they want a dignified life free from corruption.

and I think Americans can learn a lot from this.

I think one of the difficulties is, is that corruption in the United States is so often seen as distant and far away.

It's seen as something done by a senator.

You know, I mean, the Menendez case was so interesting because it was so blatant with the gold bars, etc..

But what happens under state capture is everything becomes captured.

if you want your son or daughter to be able to go to a public university, you might need to pay a bribe.

If you want to go collect your veteran's benefits, you might need to know someone or pay a bribe.

That's why state capture and corruption go hand in hand.

And that's what generally leads people to finally rise up and say they've had enough, but with varying success.

Can you describe the effect of nihilism here?

And by that I mean, this routine kind of just blitz of corruption to the point where people think, well, as you said earlier, well, isn't everybody corrupt or what they're actually saying?

There is.

Well, isn't it all the same, you know, okay, Trump is corrupt.

Sure.

But you know, Biden was corrupt.

Here's Dallas who emails me and says, well, would it be better if Trump just sold his brand like Biden did?

I mean, that implies that there's just no difference between Biden and Trump.

It's all the same.

And I think what I've learned from listening to people like you, Valerie, is that is what, some leaders want people to think that nothing matters anymore.

Exactly.

No.

And what's especially troubling, and you see this in many places around the world, but the fact that it's become such a commonality in the United States.

So just the completely different information bubbles, I mean, whether you're looking at something as quote unquote mainstream as Fox right now, which has a very specific editorial angle and also has a specific way of approaching the news coverage, you have other, television and online and podcasts, the pros, etc., putting out a steady stream of information, that sometimes that is either skewing, the facts or sometimes putting out, complete, complete bull that really can't be backed up.

And yet if people are only hearing that, then of course they're going to think, well, that's just the way it is.

and you're right, that nihilism can be the point, because there's no better way for anti-democratic.

politicians to stay in power than by making sure that people just shrug and go about their day and watch watch their reality series, keep their head down and try to not engaged.

And that's and that's what the danger is.

now, the difficulty is that to try to really make a change in the American system in terms of how money and politics has become so complete, would mean a really difficult decision.

And, discussion among Democrats and independents to say, okay, we need to say enough of this as well.

We need to stop taking the money from these big donors.

We also need to change our way of doing business.

and that's hard.

That's a really tough way to, try to compete in a system that has been completely warped by money.

But I think it's important to remember that it was not always this way.

You only need to go back to even before Citizens United, to see that there were at least ten more guardrails in terms of money and dark money.

Now it's a free for all.

I mean, you couldn't make up the notion that someone who donated so much money to the Trump campaign is now basically going on TV with a chainsaw and cutting the positions and basically wielding power with no accountability or responsibility.

but that's only because of money.

And so until the opposition and until citizens see that democracy in the United States will never be compatible with a system where money can buy everything.

in terms of the political and policy environment.

until that happens, the future is kind of bleak.

we have to take this only break of the hour, and we're going to come right back.

I've got a couple of your phone calls.

In fact, that phone has been ringing for the last five minutes.

We're going to get as many calls as we can in.

We've got emails to share, and we're going to spend some more time talking to Valerie Perry from the Democratization Policy Council about what she thinks people who care about corruption and are concerned about it and are concerned about preserving democratic processes, what they can do.

We'll talk more about that on the other side of this.

Only break.

I'm Evan Dawson Tuesday on the next connections.

In our first hour, we welcome Monroe County Legislator Rachel Barnhart, who has been critical of some in her own party for what she calls a lack of transparency in government and bad process.

And we're going to talk about what she means in our second hour.

It's an Oscars preview.

How many Oscar films have you seen this year?

We'll go down the list and have some fun.

Tuesday.

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I'm Evan Dawson to your phone calls.

We go Sam in Rochester.

Hi, Sam.

Go ahead.

Hi.

So you a few minutes ago, you and your guests were talking about sort of like, media coverage on these things.

And I just feel like it's so important to remember that, like, the decimation of especially local media and local newsrooms and newspapers has been happening for a long time and feels like it was one of those things that like, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think that there has been some intentionality among people with money and power around how we dismantle local newsrooms, and that has a really big impact on how people get information.

There are fewer journalists who are working for mainstream, traditional media outlets because the jobs are gone, and that means that it becomes harder for the average citizen to get this information because there's just nobody covering it.

And then, you know, I think we're in an environment where we have people who are, you know, you've got the local underclass news person, and that's amazing.

But those people are only generally able to reach people who are already in their orbit.

And I just think that, like, you know, the way that information is covered, what gets covered and who gets access to it is has changed so dramatically.

And I just feel like it was not an accident that this has happened over the last, you know, 15, 20, 30 years.

And it brings us to where we are now, which is, I think, a combination of apathy and also this sort of like it's overwhelming, right?

I have to go and find information because there's this what seems like a concerted effort to try to actually prevent people from getting accurate information.

Sam, there's a lot of really good stuff there.

I'm going to send it over to Valerie.

I will say the one thing that I think is I at baseline, I think the fragmentation of media was coming and that was going to be a problem for journalism in that with everything being digitized, with people being able to stream and get get content in different ways.

People don't like paying for journalism people or people don't like paying for content.

and now there are so many different places and I say places, platforms, etc.

that you can go and there's not, you know, we try to be a public square right here.

That is what we are trying to do.

That is what we are trying to be.

There's not much of that anymore.

So that fragmentation was always going to be a problem.

But your point about the fact that there are people in power who are sort of gleeful about that, or maybe even accelerated that or or tried to benefit from that, I think is really important.

And I want to give Valerie some some time to talk about that.

Go ahead.

Valerie.

No, no, no, I, I agree completely.

I think that it's a combination of the fragmentation of the media that you're mentioning, but also the fact that when it comes to media, which really can be viewed as a public service, market forces don't really work so well, do they?

we can see that when the internet got started and everyone was, you know, putting their content online and no one wanted to pay for it, and then that basically broke the business model.

and it was one of the earlier signs that we saw that the Silicon Valley ethos of run fast and break things can have terrible consequences.

back then, there was still the thought, that was quite naive at the time that, the internet was going to open up a world of intellectual possibility and exchange in a positive way that there could be more good media, more citizen journalism, etc.

instead, what we saw was a race to the bottom in terms of, expenses, in terms of paying journalists, in terms of investing in local coverage and investigative news and the decimation of the market.

and so that's a conversation I think, that needs to have that we need to have.

But I think it's also a cautionary tale in terms of what happens when societies don't have a say in technologies that can run roughshod on, on their lives and communities.

And, Sam, I have had political leaders on all sides tell me privately, I don't have to come on your show and we don't have to answer questions from any, any journalists.

we know how to get the message out to to people we want to reach without you now.

And that is that is their decision.

But, the more that happens, I think we are in a, going down a road that I would prefer.

We don't.

So I appreciate that.

Sam.

Thank you for the phone call.

Let me get Kevin and Victor next.

Hi, Kevin.

Go ahead.

Hi.

Oven deductibility.

I thought I was talking to you before, but, I think that your idea of democracy is really closer to just loosey goosey, progressive values.

and not really democracy in the strictest sense of the word.

And one of the things that bothered me is that you said today is that you're worried about Trump weaponizing the Justice Department.

I mean, the Biden Justice Department is totally weaponized.

And, I mean, I could give you a whole list, but just a few things.

They start doing squads to a seven year old pro-life man for some totally innocent thing he did in an abortion clinic with guns.

You know, flak jackets and the whole whole bit.

And they did that to other pro-life people, what they did to, Roger Stone and Steve Bannon, same kind of thing.

you had Hunter and the Biden family running around, you know, you're your turf really just peddling influence, getting millions and tens of millions of dollars.

Nobody did a damn thing about it.

And when the Republican Congress just exposed this stuff, they said, oh, well, Joe probably wasn't involved.

Okay.

What Joe was involved in, Alan Dershowitz, who I think most of us respect, he said what they've done to top at every level federal, state, local is the worst miscarriage of justice he's ever seen in his life.

He left the Democrat Party.

He lost all the friends.

I would take his word very seriously.

And it's just a sure that up.

Also, Jonathan Turley, who's a real straight shooter.

And to me, most importantly, Judge Judy said, what are they doing at Trump?

This is horrible in New York because we have so many problems.

What they're doing to Trump is just a joke.

Now all that to me is a real, miscarriage of democracy, injustice.

And I am amazed that you're not concerned about those things, so I'll just leave it there.

I think I could say a lot more.

Well, hang there for a second, Kevin.

I appreciate the phone call.

Go ahead.

Valerie.

No.

Sure.

Kevin, thanks for the call.

first of all, I just I just confirm my definition of democracy is that it's a system where people can decide who they want to represent them and hold them accountable.

That's it.

and I think that's the most important element.

I mean, do I believe in human rights?

Yes.

Do I believe that, the most marginalized in society should at least have an opportunity to move ahead?

Yes.

But in terms of like, democratic political principles, it's deciding who you want and being able to hold them accountable and being able to get rid of them if you want to.

And those elements are contrary to state capture.

when I, when your comments about, the previous administration, I mean, I guess is any administration perfect?

No.

But I guess if the system had been if the Biden administration had been so corrupt and self-interested, it's hard for me to understand why Hunter Biden would have been prosecuted at all.

it's also difficult for me to reconcile what you're saying with the fact that with the raft of lawsuits against, President Trump happening in many different jurisdictions, with many different judges and with, juries of his peers, it was not centralized and top down.

It was very dispersed.

And it was really demonstrating along the way certain trials of evidence.

And finally, I think most importantly, when you look at the cases when President Trump was trying to challenge the results of the election in 2020, there were tons of court cases, again, in red states, blue states in different jurisdictions that were all finding that the election was fine.

So one of the nice things about a federal system is that you've got those checks and balances built in.

what I do worry about is that some of the politicization that we've seen over years in terms of appointing judges, who might be a little bit more, willing to take direction from a political leader, could threaten that.

similarly, I think and again, you may remember this from the fallout after the Nixon administration.

a lot of steps were taken then to try to make some distance between the, ministry, the Department of Justice and the white House, and that's been eroded and that's not going to help you or me or anybody.

So I can understand your frustration.

But let's try to sort of get it across the board.

And again, I would say that your number one concern then should be money in politics, because if you don't have the money to be in politics, Kevin, you're not going to be able to be playing either.

Valerie, before I go back to Kevin, I just have to say, the Biden pardons on his way out the door strike me as an indication that that whole pardon system seems broken to me.

What do you make a complete.

I completely agree, and I mean, and I think that might be something that could bring a fractured American citizenry together.

I hope so.

Is that.

No, no one liked him doing that on his way out.

And even many Republicans who voted for Trump did not like Trump pardoning the January 6th.

Yeah, insurrectionists, some of whom attacked law enforcement.

So again, in in a divided society, you need to find those kernels of common ground that you can and figure out how to move forward on that moving from the local level up.

And while the pardon, power is, is it's basically it's given to the executive, it doesn't mean that it couldn't be chained to a constitutional amendment, for example.

Okay.

but, Kevin, let me just ask you, you know, when I look at, democratic movements versus authoritarianism, you had Donald Trump last week calling Vladimir Zelensky a dictator.

He didn't say that about Vladimir Putin.

He blamed Ukraine for that invasion.

He has spoken about, you know, Ukraine having to give up everything.

And I wonder when you look at that conflict, do you see in Trump somebody who is upholding the right of self-determination, democratic values?

What do you make of that?

Well, I don't want to take too much of your time when there's other people.

But let me just say that Trump uses words like that just to go with people.

You know, I don't think he really thinks Zelensky is a dictator.

But here's what I do believe about Trump.

Trump hates war.

He wants the war to end.

His biggest fear is nuclear war.

That's why he wants to be on good terms with Putin.

That's why I wanted to be in terms of good.

I don't like Putin, but I want Putin to like us and to be at peace with us.

And, as far as money and politics building, there's way more money on the dark side than there is in the Republican side.

And, you know, they spend it on what B and C and Taylor Swift and all this other stuff.

I mean, come on.

Okay, Kevin, I'll just say, I mean, it's pretty amazing watching a president create a meme coin and then just become a billionaire overnight and then have people still tell me, yeah, but, you know, Hunter Biden, I mean, listen, Hunter Biden, that's not good stuff, man.

All of that stuff undermines confidence.

The Biden pardons huge problem.

But but there is just a gleeful leveraging of presidential power for your own enrichment right now.

And Elon Musk in there.

I cannot believe that Kevin or anybody else would be fine with George Soros running Doge.

Just don't believe it.

But I could be wrong.

let me let me squeeze in, Kevin.

As always.

Thank you.

Greg in San Diego.

Hey, Greg.

Go ahead.

I mean, how far can the country go with these layoffs?

whether it be in Social Security, IRS, the the VA, we're losing, people who have years of experience.

The numbers are being churned into chaos.

What?

You know, what is the breaking point when services provided by the federal government daily, on a daily basis just can't be done anymore.

And, yes, I have feared to with the military.

kind of a second question.

if Trump changes the Joint Chiefs of Staff and he gives them the marching orders, you know how how am I might not invade Greenland?

I mean, it's crazy now to think of that.

But if he just fired a few members.

That's right.

You know, he did on Friday night.

Yep, yep.

So I'll leave it there.

And thank you very much.

Yeah, Greg.

Thank you.

I mean, the president fired the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and he installed someone who told Trump that he would die for Trump.

We're supposed to be apolitical in these positions, and we have total loyalists.

I mean, so anyway, Valerie, just briefly here, he wants to know how long can our systems hold with all these firings and layoffs, whether it's nuclear inspections, literally national parks, etc., before things start to break down?

I don't know the answer to that.

Getting closer and closer to finding out.

And I think this is what really is the point that we need to remember is that even those people who might have voted for, for Trump, for whatever reason, did they really vote because they wanted to, basically open up all of their private data to private citizen, Elon Musk and others?

Did they really vote because they wanted to eliminate all of these anti-corruption mechanisms?

Watchdogs, inspectors, generals, consumer Financial Protection Board, etc.?

Did they really, really vote because they wanted the United States to be an ally of Russia rather than the democracies of the world?

And did they really vote for Trump because they wanted to see vast parts of the federal government privatized public wealth and our birthright of national parks, etc.?

The post office basically groomed and put it into a position where they could be put into private hands for exploitation and private profit, and I don't think they did.

they might have had good reasons to do it.

But again, this is why this was a bait and switch.

And I'm glad to see that we're beginning to see more, more protest.

I hope that we'll see more and more town halls.

This is making, people in red states, communities, etc.

more and more comfortable, uncomfortable as congresspeople and senators need to listen to this, as people are suddenly waking up to the notion that this is having an impact on their communities.

we're seeing more and more people organize in terms of just trying to support each other.

And and I think that this is an extremely important, thing to do, find 5 or 10 people who are also trying to think of how they can channel their energy well, instead of just doomscrolling and jointly commit to doing one thing a day to try to make your community or democracy better, or to help someone who's being hurt, agree to sort of subscribe to more media and then share what you've heard.

Pick a book that will help you to understand history and talk about it, but get involved in some way, because otherwise they are going to try to disempower you.

I'm glad to see about the 5051, protest that was held recently and I think it's on February 28th.

some targeted boycotts happening, which I think are important.

labor unions need to get involved in this.

How can the United States say that?

It's a country that's open and good for business, when we now need to question whether or not the US will, be good on contracts?

All of the contracts that have been canceled around the world related to foreign aid, USAID, etc., that was a breach of trust and demonstrates that the U.S does not have, the good faith needed to enter into a business.

So I'm hoping that labor unions will get involved in this, because we can also look at some of the labor contracts that are being breached left and right.

there's a lot that can be done.

and something does need to be done.

And I'm glad to see that we're starting to see this coalesce.

I think March will be pivotal, because that's where we're going to start to see the discussions about the budget.

That's where there's going to be an opportunity to not only see where the Republicans stand in terms of cutting Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc., but it'll also be an opportunity for the Democrats or independents to basically demonstrate what they would have done instead, what their priorities would have been.

Instead, Timothy Snyder had made the suggestion of a shadow cabinet, which would be an opportunity for the non Republicans in federal government to show what they would be doing.

And speaking from the same sheet of music, what Trump says are not words.

That's one thing that we have learned.

He's telescoping what he wants to do.

And some of it's public, but a lot is going on under the waterline.

And every time this happens, you need to wonder, why are they trying to distract us?

What are they actually doing that's going to make us poor and take away more of our opportunity?

Doctor Valerie Perry from the Democratization Policy Council, thank you for being generous with your time.

We will share, Valerie's recent essay on many of these subjects in our show notes, and we'll talk to you again soon.

Valerie.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Evan, you're doing great work.

And let me just close by saying, you know, Ted sent me an email saying he thought I was being one sided by pointing out that Donald Trump didn't have a majority of the vote in 2024.

He had 49.8%.

Kamala Harris of what I think 48.3%.

And, he said that, you know, Biden had only 51.3 in 2020.

My opinion sounds one sided.

Trump won decisively with the Electoral College.

Ted Trump definitely won decisively in the Electoral College.

He swept the swing states seven for seven.

That, in a sense, is dominant.

And in the culture wars and in some of, you know, sort of the response to these political movements, the political right is ascendant.

And, and Donald Trump did very well in the last election, every election going back to what may be 1980, 84 has been really, really close.

2008 was a blowout.

But it's it's close.

We are a very closely divided society.

I am not taking anything away from Donald Trump's victory.

We're just talking about where we are.

And I appreciate the email.

As always.

Thanks everyone for listening.

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