>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in a trip to Senegal.

Rochester native Danielle Ponder was not yet an attorney, not yet a public defender, or a civil rights advocate.

She was not yet a globe traveling singer and songwriter.

She was 17 years old when she went to Senegal, and what she saw became the inspiration for a song that is just being released this week.

The song is called power.

It is no coincidence that its release comes during the week of Juneteenth.

Ponder said about her trip to Senegal and the song she wrote, quote, I found a brightness in the eyes of the people and an absence of heaviness in their songs.

Here, power and leadership all come in the color black, and I began to piece together the source of my own.

This song is a love note to the girl.

I was at 17 who crossed an ocean to find a place where she could be.

It's a love note to the black diaspora.

May we always remember that we are people who can fly.

End quote.

You'll hear the new song in just a minute.

Ponder is headlining the Rochester Juneteenth Festival on Saturday.

We'll talk about that too.

She's back with us on Connections.

It's been a little while.

It's great to have Danielle Ponder back with us.

Hello, Danielle.

>> Hey, Evan, good to see you again.

Thank you for having me.

>> I was surprised when I was reading the notes before the show that, um, uh, that the last album was like 2022, your last new music was 2023.

Time flies, doesn't it?

>> That's amazing.

>> Yeah.

I'm surprised that it's been so long, but I'm happy to be back with new music.

>> So before we listen to power, can you describe that trip a little bit more and what you remember about it when you were 17?

>> Yeah, you know, I went, um, a amazing woman named Alice Gissendaner started a program called Students in Africa for students.

Um, high school students.

And I was at Wilson at the time.

And I was growing, you know, I grew up in the inner city of Rochester, um, different landscape, different dynamic.

And I just remember going to Senegal.

And first of all, it was the first time I've been somewhere and it was just all black people.

And you kind of forget that you're black in America.

You're very aware of your blackness every day.

Um, and you don't realize how much of a heavy burden that is, um, or a heaviness that is until you go somewhere like Senegal, where you just are.

Danielle, where you just are a human being.

Um, and for me, that just, that was such a life changing moment, but also there was a black president.

All of the teachers were black.

All of the doctors were black, the professors, the lawyers.

So just seeing that level of leadership and authority, um, in Senegal, it really was striking to me as a black girl who's growing up in a very segregated country, um, where power often did not look like me.

>> Have you been you haven't been back since 17 or have you been back?

>> I just came back.

That's.

I filmed the video.

>> Yeah.

Besides I know.

Yeah.

We'll talk about the video.

I'm very excited because the video is amazing.

By the way.

>> Uh, thank you.

>> Um, but before that trip back, um, is that your first trip back for the video?

>> First trip back to Dakar?

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

Um, and did that give you the, um, an urge to travel more to see different parts of the world?

I mean, you're 17 and it obviously it was so eye opening.

Um, and now you travel a lot for music.

Did that trip kind of infect you a little bit with the urge to travel more?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

I actually in 2020 or 2004, I lived in Benin, which is in West Africa.

Um, I've been to Ghana, I have, you know, been to all over the world, but I, it definitely put the travel bug in me and the importance of just the cross-cultural connection, but really it made me a Pan-Africanist, you know?

Um, I just right now, you see like the diaspora wars, but I've always just felt like I'm African and people in Africa are my brothers and sisters and people in the Caribbeans are my brothers and sisters.

So I think it really made me a Pan-African.

>> And I also want to just ask you a little bit more about the notion of, of the narrative that sometimes people in power in this country have about excellence and immigration and who is capable of excellence.

We have had an administration, we've had a president who's used some really derogatory terms to talk about African countries, about immigrants from Africa, comparing them to I mean, he directly compares them to people from Norway, which seems like a very obvious comparison.

And when you see, as you say, the doctors and the academics and the president and the Congress in a country that is all black, does it put the lie to you of who is capable of excellence and where our own limitations are?

>> Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

I think that people don't realize growing up black in America, there can be this internalized inferiority complex.

Um, whether it's the president or whether it's just the history of the country, which really is founded on the premise of white supremacy.

Um, and so I think even when I went back recently and I filmed with these amazing, um, models and actors and artists and, you know, videographers, just amazing talent.

Someone said to me, you know, it's so good that you're going back to your roots and, and I'm like, going back to Africa is not about the roots.

It's about this is the future of the arts.

And there's so many qualified, amazing artists that I specifically wanted to work with.

Um, so I think, you know, that happened at 17, of course, but also just going back this time and just being exposed to an insane amount of amazing creatives, but you know, Evan, when I first went, um, when I went back at like 24 and I came home, I started an African American history camp in the east side of Rochester.

And that was because I wanted young people to have that same feeling that I have, that our history is just not slavery.

And the civil rights movement, but that we are people who existed before any of that trauma.

Um, and I wanted them to feel a connection to our roots.

That is for me was really empowering.

>> So let's listen to power.

If we can hear, let's, let's listen to the whole song, and then we'll come back and talk to Daniel Ponder about her new song.

>> You can't See My Power.

You can't see my.

>> Black power in the Mississippi Delta.

Black power when Mary sink shelter.

Pulling up in the streets of Kampala.

There's a calling for the sons and the daughters.

Black power on the surface of the moon.

Black power in Jesus tomb breaking bread.

Collard greens with my soul.

Yeah.

Feet stomping.

Praise the Lord.

Hallelujah.

I come from the beginning of sound and time.

We don't have the same God.

My people could fly.

It's just that ancestral coolness.

Pulling up in cool whips.

Living like there ain't no death.

>> Can't see.

>> My devils in a stupor.

Tryna get the scoop on how the black soul survive.

Well from the car to the Carolina.

Can't you see that the spirit guides us.

I got 2 million souls around me.

Take a bow, put the crown on me.

>> Black is that little space we find in the dark.

Each night.

Without a light.

In the bend of dark arms.

Safe from trauma, grief and strife.

Black is the color of real jungle fever in Belize, Tanzania or Papua New Guinea.

Sweaty black bodies swinging wildly uninhibited, unashamed, unabashedly free, black is the color of the Atlantic floor.

The complexion of the sky God.

Directly north.

It is a sunset horizon disappearing into Ontario Lake.

Black is black.

Partey speakers blasting black bass beats over knotty nappy heads, carnival drums swirling black rhythms around hips and barefoot souls staying deep in shades of red.

Black is the color.

Black is the color of love.

>> That's power.

Uh.

All right.

Danielle Ponder.

So, I mean, you've heard it a million times now.

>> Rena.

>> Rena Golden on the spoken word piece.

>> Yeah, I know you want you.

You're always so good about shouting out the people you work with because you've worked with amazing people over.

How close did you work with Rena on not just that spoken word piece?

Are these all your lyrics?

Did you collaborate at all?

>> Well, the the, the music is, um, the song is my lyrics, but the poetry is all rina's lyrics.

And ironically, that piece we had collaborated maybe like ten years ago on a song that never came out.

And so I had that poetry from that piece, and I put it in this beat, and I sent her a message and said, I think this is like where this should go.

And she was game for it.

And it just really, you know, she's such an amazing writer and it just brought life to the song.

>> So now that you've heard it a million times, but you get to hear it in full here, is it what you what you had in your head before it really became a highly produced piece of art?

>> Yes.

I mean, I think it could be longer.

>> That's probably my only I'm.

>> Like, man, I should have did another verse and another chorus, but I'm really proud of it.

And I think what I love about it is the connection throughout the diaspora, right?

I love, you know, from Dakar to the Carolinas, collard greens with my soya.

Soya is a traditional Nigerian dish.

And I think that's really always been something I've been really passionate about, is making that connection across the diaspora.

So I just, I think I think there's some bars in there and I'm pretty excited about the bars.

>> So can I ask you about some individual lines, if you don't mind, in the song?

>> Um, yeah.

>> So, you know, as, as you talk about the narrative that is sometimes taught to black children in this country, or just the feeling of the way this country is sometimes structured to treat the black experience like it might have started with slavery and then went through the civil rights movement, as opposed to this line that says, I come from the beginning of sound and time.

Tell me about that.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, we, you know, it's science that people originated in Africa.

And we have such a strong, um, robust history and legacy.

Um, and I think that it's a shame.

I mean, it's so important to honor our ancestors and what they went through in slavery.

But these were also people who came from a place where they had a home.

They had a language, they had a religion.

So I think it's also important not to see them as just slaves, but enslaved Africans who have existed for, you know, hundreds of years, thousands of years, uh, before there was anything even called white supremacy.

So I think for me, it's just, um, that's where my power comes from.

And, and here I really wanted to just decenter anything that had to do with whiteness or the white gaze and just focus on uplifting our people.

>> When I first saw the video, um, I, one of the first lines that I heard and picked out was, uh, black power on the surface of the moon.

And then I, in my brain, I heard black power in Jesus's tomb, but it's not tomb.

It's black power in Jesus.

200 is that right?

>> No.

In Jesus.

>> Tomb it is.

>> Two.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

>> I thought that was just a cool way to say Jesus was black.

And the resurrection was black power.

So there you go.

>> Yeah.

You got to.

>> Say a little bit more about, you know, how some people are going to take that.

>> Yeah, I didn't care.

>> At all.

>> Um, you know, I thought about the most powerful moments when I say black power, when Mary sings shelter.

If you've heard Gimme Shelter, then you've heard, um, this amazing singer singing Ray Murdaugh.

We're probably going to get I probably can't sing it, but you know, the song that's black Power.

When you think about this idea of this man with copper skin, with bronze skin and wool of and hair of wool resurrecting, that's black power.

Now for me, you know, I'm my mom is probably listening.

I was raised Christian, but you know, I'm just spiritual at this point.

But I just I just thought that was a dope line, to be honest.

>> Well, you know, that Santa Claus was white and Jesus was white.

So, um, >> Now.

>> I bring that up because over time there have been really bizarre controversies about black Santas and, and the notion of whenever Jesus is made to not look like Kenny Rogers people, some people get upset, although Jesus probably was not, you know, like as white as you know me, I guess I don't know.

>> Yeah, yeah.

I honestly, I don't know what color he was and I don't care.

But I know he wasn't living in the Middle East and had blond hair and blue eyes.

Um, so I think that the song is really just, you know, I just think the song is fly.

It has nothing to do with what anyone thinks about the color of Santa or the color of anyone.

Um, and it is strictly a song of empowerment for the black diaspora.

>> Um, for people who haven't been to Dakar, what is Dakar like?

>> I don't even want to tell y'all how amazing Dakar is because I don't want y'all going there and setting up resorts and all types of mess and taking away, uh, the amazingness that this country is some of the most beautiful people, best food I've ever had in all of my travels.

Um, still have access to the beach.

And that's why I don't want to tell y'all listeners, because I don't want y'all to turn it into Jamaica.

So you still have people fishing on the beach and swimming, and there's a surf community in Dakar.

Um, Dakar is really, I'm actually going back in two weeks for a month.

That's how much I loved it.

Uh, it's just an incredible place and it really is one of the art hubs of West Africa.

Um, so there's also just amazing artists there, but don't go.

You won't like it.

>> Yeah.

I don't know if that's going to work.

Uh, can you describe what it was like going, first of all, what it was like going to create the video and then let's talk about the visual elements that you wanted in the video for for power.

>> Um, well, I think I. I have to give most of this to the director, Freddy Cortez, because those scenes were his, that was his vision.

Um, he is so locked in with the network of artists in Dakar and he, from the beginning to the end, he heard the song and he said, this is what I think.

And I remember him saying, you're going to be on a horse.

And I was like a horse.

I'm not getting on no horse.

And he was like, no, I'm telling you, this is going to be really powerful.

So I got on the horse and I complained the whole time on the horse because I felt like that horse was so sad that I was his, um, that he had to take me for a ride that day.

But it was just, it really was his vision.

Like I really let him lead this and just said, you know, this is the song, this is what the song is about.

I told him about, you know, going to Dakar when I was younger.

And he came in and he put together an incredible piece of art.

Um, and I had reached out to Fetty because I saw his work on Instagram and I was like, oh my God, these images are amazing.

Um, and so I, you know, hit him up and one thing led to another and I was like, okay, I'm coming to Dakar.

Let's do it.

>> Mhm.

Um, and I got, I just got a note from a listener listening in Vancouver, Canada.

David said, I thought this was going to be a fluff segment.

Boy, was I wrong.

Such an important discussion.

And I love the powerful tune to David.

If Danielle Ponder is coming on is not going to be a fluff segment.

>> There's there's no fluff between me and Evan.

We'll get straight to it.

>> We usually do get straight to it, but I appreciate that David and David's probably going to want to share the song.

Where do you want people to find it?

For those who just heard it for the first time, Danielle.

>> It's on all streaming platforms.

It's also on YouTube.

You can watch the video on YouTube.

Um, yeah.

Anywhere you get your music, it is out.

And please, please share and please play it at your Juneteenth barbecue.

Thank you very much.

>> So in our in our second half hour, we're going to talk about the Juneteenth Festival that Danielle is headlining on Saturday.

It's two days away from now, I think.

Um, I lose track of time so quickly these days.

And we're going to talk about some of the work that Danielle is doing.

I've got this beautiful press release and Danielle's labels want Danielle.

We're going to talk about labels and how things are going there.

Um, but before, before we kind of wrap this segment of it.

Daniel, I just want to ask you, um, you know, thinking about the, the themes of your song and what you learned at the age of 17 compared to some of the stories and the narratives and the teachings in American classrooms for teenagers of all backgrounds, but especially black teenagers, what do you what do you want black kids to be taught about themselves and history that they're not being taught in this country?

>> I mean, I just want there to be an expansion of the story of the black experience that goes beyond, um, moments of being enslaved.

But I also want them to understand the strength of our ancestors and how incredible it is to lose, to lose your land and your home and your name, and then to come to America and create a new culture, a culture that is all over the world.

And that was one of the amazing things about Dakar.

People were listening to soul music.

They're listening to hip hop, they're dressed like, you know, black Americans.

The style.

And so I think about everything we went through as a people and what we turned that into.

I mean, the, the work that has been done to make us think that somehow we are inferior has been masterful.

And I think every day we have to work against that because the truth of who we are is clearly there.

It's clearly there in history.

It's clearly there in our ancestors survival.

Um, I just want young people who are like me, living in the hood, looking around and feel feeling less than because what your environment told you.

Um, I want them to be able to see this video and see themselves in it, but I also want them to know who we are as a people, as the first people, as a people who survived the unimaginable.

Um, no one would be here if it wasn't for Africa.

And, um, I want them to be proud of their blackness.

And I really hope this song does that.

And the, uh, video as well.

>> And I'm going to stumble on this question, but I'm, I'm kind of drawing a line with this experience you had at 17 where you go to Senegal and everyone is black, all the leadership is black, all the professional class is black.

And contrasting that to some of the experience you had growing up in the United States, growing up in Rochester, but you live in Atlanta now, although you travel a lot or you've been in Atlanta.

And, um, if I'm not mistaken, you've talked about feeling a little more with your people in Atlanta.

Um, so first of all, is that fair?

Is that right?

>> Yeah, that's a great point because Atlanta is a different world.

You can sometimes forget the madness of Trump and white supremacy.

Not that there's not issues here.

There is segregation here.

You can see the income divide here.

And that is true for every city in America.

And I think that's one thing that going to Dakar also showed me is like when we went to rich neighborhoods, they were still black.

It wasn't like all of a sudden the very wealthy neighborhoods were white.

Um, so even in Atlanta, you can see some of that, right?

But the presence of blackness and of my doctor here is black.

My orthodontist is black, my dentist is black.

In possible in Rochester.

Okay.

There's like one black gynecologist in Rochester and like all black women are trying to go see her.

But we in Atlanta, it is a different experience and it has lifted a little bit of that weight off of my shoulder.

I really don't think I could live anywhere else but Africa.

Um, somewhere in Africa, Atlanta and Rochester, just because I love the people there.

But I think in the US or those are the places that I could live.

>> Okay.

And then to kind of put a point on that, there's in a country of 340 million people, um, you know, the demographics are changing, but black people in this country are not going to be in a ton of rooms as they go throughout their lives.

Um, at times there will be a majority black room.

We're still very segregated, of course, but as you move through the world in this country, there's going to be plenty of times where black people will be the only black person in the room, or the only black person in the classroom, in a classroom or a professional setting.

Can can we get to a point where even with that statistical number or truth, that black kids and black people don't have to look around and feel like no one is going to think that I can do this.

Everyone's looking at me thinking differently.

Can we get there?

>> You know, I think that's a question for white people because that's really their problem.

Um, when you look at every industry in America, black people are treated worse and have worse outcomes, whether it's medical, whether it's education, whether it's the criminal justice system.

But that's not our issue.

The issue is the white people in power who have created that system, who have implicit bias, who are, um, not ready to be honest about white supremacy.

And that is the foundation of this country.

So I think the work is really on the white community to say, can we create a world where there is no child in our country that because of their skin, believes there's they're less than because it's hard for me not to think I'm not less than when a white police officer can shoot, my brother can beat up my.

My sister and get away with it.

Or when a white medical doctor can tell my mom she's not in as much pain as she thinks she is and can get away with it.

So it's hard for me not to internalize that.

But we have to look at the people who are doing the harm.

Um, and, you know, I, I think I, I would say the system is a system that is based on the foundation of white supremacy because, because even people of color can act in those ways as well.

So until this country is honest about what they swim in, which is white supremacy, I don't know if that world can be created.

And I think that's why places like Atlanta have been important.

That's why trips to Africa are important, because we can't wait for y'all to get it right.

Right.

We have to create those spaces for our young people, and we have to educate our young people so that they can walk in the rooms.

You know, despite it, because I can't trust that this country is going to have that shift.

Um, the last election, definitely, you know, didn't help me to or didn't allow me to trust that it would.

But yeah, I, I'd be interested to see how, um, white folks feel they can change.

>> Mhm.

Talking to Danielle Ponder singer songwriter, new song is called power.

It is out now in advance of Juneteenth.

When we come back from this only break, we're going to talk about her headlining the Juneteenth Festival in Rochester.

We'll talk about the label she's working with and some of what she'd like to do next.

Here.

Danielle Ponder, our guest on Connections.

A 750 mile journey from Maryland all the way to Toronto, traces the route of the Underground Railroad.

It's ending in Toronto on the Fourth of July, the 250th birthday of the country this week, Freedom Walk is in Rochester.

It's coming through, and we're going to talk to the creators of Freedom Walk, what they hope the public sees and experiences and understands.

That's coming up next.

Our.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Ralph Honda providing guidance throughout the car buying experience.

For more than 50 years, working to help individuals and families find a vehicle for life's journey.

Whatever the mile marker.

Online at Ralph honda.com and Mary Cariola, center, proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson.

Believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one, Mary cariola.org.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Hal called in to say what a great guest and what a great discussion.

He lived in Africa and we need more of this kind of conversation.

Thank you.

Hal Robin Rochester.

Not the not only the tone and musicality of Daniel's voice is amazing, but her phrasing and groove and meter are untouchable.

All right, Daniel, but I mean, that's that's you.

That's, I guess that's Rena.

That's the whole team.

That's a you're doing something.

You're doing something right.

>> Avis Reese on organ soul Messiah was the producer.

Yeah.

I'm really proud of all of them.

>> Do you, um, when you're creating music, do you ever, whether it's in the studio or maybe with collaborator, do you think, look, I love this line, but like the pace isn't it doesn't fit.

We need one less syllable or we need to change something.

Does that happen?

>> What?

All the time?

That is all it is.

You know, sometimes the song comes really easy, but you definitely.

I changed lyrics in the song and it wasn't because I was like, the lyric isn't good.

I may have not liked the way it flowed, you know?

And I think especially like a song like this that has borrows a little bit more from hip hop and its delivery.

The flow is so important because you really got to be on the beat.

So yeah, I think you guys have no clue how much time goes into a minute.

And 30s.

Okay.

And so when people say like, you know, that's, that's why we try to get the money because it is a lot of time to create a song.

Songs take, you know, hours, days, some can take months before you actually have your product.

Um, so yeah, a lot of trial and error and correcting things and yeah.

>> Where are you on the use of AI in this process?

>> I hate it absolutely against it.

Will fight to my death against AI.

I think AI has no place in the arts whatsoever.

Um, if you want AI to do something, do all these jobs we don't want to do, okay, like do our laundry.

Um, I don't know, sweep the streets, do, do that so we can just make art, but it is not, it's our job to make art as humans, with feelings, with emotion.

It should never be the job of a computer.

Um, so I am like against using AI at all in music.

>> My, one of my concerns in the realm of art is that we're not getting told often what is AI?

There's this ridiculous little bop about San Juan, Puerto Rico that seems to be everywhere right now.

And that's like an AI.

That's an AI creation.

Um, and, you know, I know it's playful, whatever.

And like some people, whatever, but I think a lot of people still don't know.

And there are plenty of sensible artists.

I'm putting that in air quotes that have human names and human images that are AI.

And, you know, Spotify doesn't tell you, YouTube might not tell you.

I think at least I think we at least we should be told.

Right?

>> Yeah.

I listen to a whole playlist once and it was all AI because I found this artist and I was like, oh, she's really great.

And then I put her in, she got my algorithm, and then they fed me an AI playlist.

But I think what people aren't talking enough about with AI is AI is not the computer coming up with things.

AI is a computer stealing things from actual artists.

So there was a time, maybe a couple of months ago where like three of the songs on the blue, the blues charts were AI artists.

So what they're essentially doing is sucking the soul out of black artists, soul artists, R&B artists, and turning it in to a, you know, this computer figure, right?

So if there was a white guy who was in his basement, came out, put on black face, and was lip syncing all over the country to, you know, some black artists, everyone would just be like, oh my God, what is happening?

That is what AI is doing.

AI is taking our words, our vocal tones.

It is it is farming.

All of the things that we have created to create its output.

And that's the hue.

That's the big problem to me, because then if AI uses a piece of my voice, and then that song is being sold, I don't get a piece of that music.

Right?

>> Absolutely.

>> So I think that's the piece that people kind of act like AI is just created by some codes.

No, everything you hear is stolen from creators.

So they are making billions of dollars off of artists who can't even pay their rent.

Hello.

That's the.

To me, that's the narrative that we need to be talking about.

Is it, is it that these companies.

>> Is it digital blackface?

>> Absolutely, absolutely.

There is a European woman who has put out a song, and I listen to the song and I said, this is there's no way.

This is this woman.

And I went to her page.

And sure enough, now she fair to her, she did have that.

She was an AI creator, but the voice was stolen.

It was stolen from Nina Simone.

It was stolen from Big Mama Thornton.

It.

Who knows?

Maybe it was stolen from me or other artists.

And there's no way to claim your rights on that.

So AI is having an insane boom, you know, billions to trillions of dollars are projected to be made, and artists are suffering, but they're using our voice.

I mean, it's it's a Jordan Peele movie at this point, right?

They're taking our voice, our passion, our emotion, putting it inside of computer and turning it in to a song.

You know, it just.

>> You are both an artist and an attorney.

So, I mean, you understand a lot of layers of this.

I am surprised that it has gotten this far without really successful legal class action or challenges that would stop the practice.

Are you surprised?

>> Yeah, I think there's a there's a bills that are being proposed to kind of regulate this, but I think America follows the money.

Um, and I will not forget that I was at an industry event and a top person in the industry said at the event, we have to start thinking about how we work with AI.

And at that moment, I knew we were doomed.

Okay.

Because you have to remember that the industry, um, the people who run it are business people.

They are not artists.

So that's why Spotify is as popular as it as it is.

Because although the artists are complaining, the people in the industry figured out a business deal with Spotify, how is there a way where you hold you?

Um, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

And so essentially, I believe that's going to happen with AI.

If AI is making trillions of dollars and the industry allegiance is to the dollar and not to the artists, then the industry is going to say, okay, how can we work with you to get some of that money?

So I think that's where the divide is, is that we have business people who own the arts, business people own the work that we are creating.

Unless you're a completely independent artist and the majority of music that we are hearing is not owned by an artist, it is owned by a businessman.

So like any company that is worried about shareholders and profits, they are going to do the thing that they feel like will create the most, um, money for them.

So here we are.

>> Um, well, I'm not surprised to hear you putting a marker down about this and, and letting our audience know and your audience everywhere know that your work has no AI and it will not have AI.

Um, but I just, I just want more transparency at the very least.

But, um, you know, the rest of that's for another day.

So let me, let me ask you then sort of about the business side of things.

You've been in this business really full time now.

When did you leave?

When did you leave your public defender career?

Now.

How long ago was that?

>> Uh.

>> 2021.

>> Okay, so five years in the industry, but it's an industry that you've known and you see it up close, uh, labels sometimes haven't had the best reputations of how they treat artists and you know, what rights they try to keep for themselves and what they give to the artists.

So tell me about what you've seen in the industry and if you're comfortable where you are now, can you talk about where you are now?

>> You know, I feel.

>> Good to have an indie label, which is very different from a major.

I think my first label was indie, my second, this label I'm under now is indie.

It's also a label connected to an artist.

So when I initially signed, it was Phoebe Bridgers label, but they since have folded into Dead Oceans.

So I am having a different experience than people would have on a major label.

I'm not going to say that the industry is not a headache.

It's a headache for many, many reasons.

But I do think that I am blessed to be in a position where I have like a, a more chill label experience.

Um, like even when I was like, I want to put this song out and everybody's like, what?

I'm like, yeah, I'm just going to drop it and we're going to drop it before Juneteenth.

And they're like, wait, but we haven't.

And I was like, yeah, I'm going to go to Africa and film it.

And they're like, what?

You why?

Why do you have to go to Africa?

I mean, so I can't, I really can't, you know, talk bad about them because they've essentially let me do what I've wanted to do.

Um, but obviously, you know, there's still a lot in this industry that is, has been difficult for me to navigate.

>> When a label mistreats an artist, what's going on?

What happens?

>> I mean.

>> I think that, you know, people will say when you're with a major label, if your song doesn't take off in the first six months, they can immediately drop you.

And I think that's what artists don't realize is that these are businesses and you are a product.

Um, and that's how they can treat you.

So if you don't have a label that really believes in you and believes in what you're trying to do, then you are going to get treated like a product.

Um, and that could be major or that could be indie.

I wouldn't even say that you have to sign to a label.

I don't think in these days, in a, in this day and age you do.

Um, I feel like we needed labels before because we needed to get into record stores, but now there aren't any record stores.

You can just upload your song.

We needed labels before because we needed to get into press, but nobody really cares about press.

Everybody is just watching Instagram and TikTok, and you can do that yourself.

We needed, um, you know, labels for radio play.

There's only like 20 artists that get on commercial radio.

So it's not even a factor for most people.

Um, you know, other than NPR, which we love and please donate, but.

>> No, I hear you, I hear you, the.

>> Commercial radio station, they play like 20 artists.

So I don't think labels are as necessary as they were before.

Um, and I think when I'm done with this label, I would not sign another contract.

Hopefully I'm where I need to be.

Um, but I, I, I just think that you need labels can be really great in the development stage.

And that's where I still am.

Um, but I, I think they're trying to, you know, survive.

Um, and they are surviving by continuing to sell the dream of making it.

And every artist needs to relinquish that.

>> Okay.

So going forward, if you're going to have this really good relationship with the label, you've, you've got them to say, okay, you're going to Africa to shoot a video.

Okay, we're just going to drop this song.

Um, what else do you want from your label?

>> Well.

>> Are you saying because I'm saying I have a good relationship, but I would still, you know, be independent after.

>> Yeah.

I mean, I, I want to I'm curious to know if you think that you as an artist still need a label for the long term, or if there's something that they could do that would show you, hey, this is a relationship that actually works for both of us.

>> Well.

>> Evan, right now I need money.

They paid for me to go to Africa, but when I'm making my own money, I want ownership.

So if I get to a place where I am financially able to pay for Africa and pay for videos and pay for all of the things, then I want the ownership of my music.

And so I think right now I'm very happy to have them as partners and very happy to have them.

Um, you know, supporting me and, but, you know, there's artists who do negotiate terms that are more favorable.

But I think for me, especially at my age, um, this would probably be, you know, the last run for me.

And then I'd like to just be living in the car and putting out music when I want.

>> And you're like my age.

>> Do I have to retire.

>> Soon?

>> No.

You know, I mean, I just.

>> Want to.

>> I think you're younger than me.

Significantly, actually.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm trying to make enough bread so that eventually I just put it, you know, I'm just putting out music.

But I've, you know, and it's going to be a while before I'm at that place, to be honest.

So I'm really talking about when I'm in my 50s, um, so yeah, I think I'm in a good situation, but I really think ownership is important.

Um, and some, some people can't afford ownership and I, I was one of them, but eventually I will be able to.

>> Well, how much are you writing music these days?

I mean, do you have a routine or is it when something hits you, how often are you writing.

>> Right now?

I'm gearing up.

That's you know, I've been writing for the past three years.

And so now I'm doing press.

>> Like this.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

>> But are you an artist who, when you are in a writing phase, you're setting aside X amount of hours a day or it's like you're going to try to find inspirational points, but you're really going to dive in when you're hit with something.

>> I mean, I think my best music is when I'm hit with something, when I'm like, you know, I hate to say it, but when I'm brokenhearted or when I'm really struggling, that is the best time for me to write.

Um, there was a time in my life I was doing really, really great.

And I kept saying, man, I can't write this album.

It's like too many good things happening.

>> What am I going to write about riding my bike?

>> You know.

Outside and I gotta you gotta be careful what you wish for because things hit the fan.

Oh my God, I wish I could cuss on this radio station because when I tell you my life took a turn and all of a sudden I said, oh, there's the album.

But yeah, it definitely, uh, it, it got difficult and it made for, I think, you know, some good music.

>> I mean, A Broken Heart is always an inspiration.

Of course.

Uh, Strothers struggle with love is always.

That's why people say like Taylor's new album or the most recent album, they were like, eh, you know, she's too happy now.

I mean, like, what do you think of that?

Taylor's work?

Take the suffer because she's happy now.

>> I know nothing about Taylor Swift.

I kind of thought I kind of thought you might say that.

Uh, I will say that this, you know, the songs that I've written and and that, you know, this body of work that will soon see the light of day is my last time centering romantic love.

I think.

>> Why.

>> Why last?

Um, because I'm over it.

I'm just having like a whole, you know, um, moment in my life where I'm questioning how much we obsess about romantic love.

We can't, you know, you can't have a movie.

The movie could be about a car mechanic, and he had to fall in love with somebody like you.

Just it is like everywhere.

And it's like, man, I'm learning that there's so many other forms of love.

And like, when's the last time I wrote a song about one of my girlfriends who have been like, there for me more than any man has ever in my life, or about my mother or about my nephew, or about my friends in general.

And I think, yeah, I just kind of OD'd on that type of music.

And now I'm kind of like, mm, I want to explore a world where I'm talking about self-love, and I'm talking about these other forms of love, the love my father gave me is, is more profound than any man could ever imagine.

And so why have I dedicated so much time centering that type of love?

Um, so that, yeah, I'm just, I'm curious about creating something that just moves away from that narrative.

>> I, I'm for one, very interested.

Um, it's the anti Olivia Rodrigo.

Every one of her songs is like a breakup song or like a get back at a guy song, you know, and she's, she's doing okay, I think with it.

So, um, yeah, there's, there's plenty out there, but no, that's really interesting.

Okay.

And I'm not going to ask you about timelines because, um, everybody wants to know, like when your next stuff, you have a song out this week, people can, can get off your back.

Now you have you got, you've dropped something new.

So power is out.

>> Listen to power.

Power is out.

Power is out.

>> Power is out.

Now.

Uh, tell me about Saturday and the festival.

Your headline in the Juneteenth festival.

Um, why did you decide to do it?

And what excites you most about it?

>> I am just, you know, they asked me to do it last year, and I can't remember what happened, but I had a conflict and couldn't do it.

Um, and I don't know, I'm just ready to have a blankety black show in Rochester, my hometown.

I'm so excited to sing my next, um, single there, you know, Juneteenth is a holiday that for me means so much once again, an opportunity to honor my ancestors, to honor people who have, you know, gone through so much.

And I think at this time in this country, with this president, we just need a celebrated celebration of blackness.

And, you know, it's something that everyone can come and celebrate.

And why wouldn't you, with everything that black people have given this country, if you love hip hop, if you love, you know, soul, if you love, you know, there's a million things I could think of.

But it's a, you know, why wouldn't you celebrate the people who have created, uh, what I would, I would say has created mainstream American culture.

Um, so yeah, I just think it's, it's a beautiful opportunity.

And I'm also just hoping that, you know, young people from my neighborhood and black folks all over the city, our city, which is almost 40% black, but has such a high poverty rate, a high child poverty rate.

A lot of our folks are living in, you know, terrible circumstances.

We haven't seen much changes.

I just hope there is a space for them to come to celebrate and be beautiful and be black and have a good time.

>> Do you find as a songwriter, there's so much being said about whether it's politics or culture right now that it's hard to find like a like a new angle to it?

Or do you think it's overwhelming?

And you could write about it all day.

>> Um, I don't think there's enough being said in music about what's happening right now.

Um, I don't think there's enough conscious music in the mainstream at least.

Um, but yeah, I could write about it all day.

I mean, I didn't even scratch the surface, you know, I could write an anthology on the criminal justice system.

Okay.

So, uh, I could go really deep with all of this.

Um, and I think there's many black artists who, you know, America has given us a lot of material, okay, to work with.

Um, so yeah, I never find myself at a loss for, uh, or feeling like there's nothing left to say because we haven't really done any, other reconciliation and healing.

And, you know, America just hasn't healed.

It's really like this toxic partner that doesn't realize they have a problem.

Like every five seconds, they apologizing, but they're really just not going to AA.

And it's like, come on, you're an alcoholic.

Get it together.

It's like you're a white Supremacy do the work.

So until that moment, we going to always have something to say.

>> The show with Daniel Ponder on Saturday is that Martin Luther King Jr.. Memorial Park, it's a very specific time.

It's at 655, not 654, not seven.

It's at 655 on Saturday.

Very specific.

That's the most specific time you've ever performed.

655 Daniel Ponder.

>> I didn't know that.

Thank you for telling me.

>> Yeah.

>> You better be there.

>> Yeah, you better be there on time.

Um, let me read a note from a listener on YouTube who says someone watching on YouTube says, I love this woman.

And her voice and her music.

We saw her in a church in downtown Rochester a few years ago, and it was an incredible spiritual experience.

And I'm a 70 year old white guy.

I'm so happy.

She finally has a recognition that she and her band deserve.

Um.

>> Do you.

>> Do you have the recognition you deserve yet?

I mean, I still feel like more people could hear you.

>> Yeah.

That's why, you know, I'm counting on Rochester to help me.

You know, I, I swear, I'm always like, okay, guys, please share.

Tell your friends and people really do it.

Like I meet people from all over the world who say someone from Rochester sent them.

Obviously, I want, you know, to achieve more.

I want to a bigger audience.

This video is doing amazing right now.

Um, Olivia uh, just started following me and, uh, it's just been the song has taken off, but you know, Evan, I want a Grammy.

I absolutely want a Grammy.

I absolutely want to be at a place financially where I can retire eventually.

I absolutely want to.

I want an NAACP award.

I mean, what I got to do for NAACP Award.

You know, I.

>> Think you've done enough.

I, I don't get a vote.

I was a public defender.

>> I'm putting out good conscious music.

Like somebody called the NAACP, like, yeah, I'm here to do it all.

I'm here to do it all.

And I'm here to serve the people.

And, um, yeah, I'm ready.

>> Danielle Ponder we're going to listen as we go, uh, as we finish the hour here one more time to the song power.

It's out now.

You can share it wherever you like.

Danielle.

It's always great to have you.

We'll see you Saturday.

>> Thank you so much for having me.

Appreciate it.

Have a good one.

>> It's of the best.

More Connections coming up.

This is.

>> Power nappy heads.

Carnival drums swirling black rhythms around hips and barefoot soles stained deep in shades of red.

Black is the color.

Black is the color of love.

>> This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience.

Any rebroadcast or use in another medium without express written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the Connections link at WXXI News.org.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Excellus Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Working with members to find health coverage for every stage of life, helping to make care and coverage more accessible in more ways for more people across the Rochester community.

Details online at XL, bcbs.com.

And Labella Associates.

Dedicated to the pursuit of partnership for more than 40 years, offering services in the development of buildings, infrastructure, environmental and energy projects.

Labella powered by partnership.

Labella pc.com.