From WXXI news.

this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made it president Trump's address to Congress a few weeks ago.

Essentially a state of the Union address.

Now, the president had spent the campaign talking about expanding American fossil fuel production.

He talked about a climate change hoax, and his campaign demeaned the clean energy industry.

Now, having won the election, he had a chance to share his thoughts on energy with the country.

And I want to listen to some of what he said.

This is President Trump in an address to Congress.

The inflation crisis was caused by massive overspending and escalating energy prices.

And that is why today I will also declare a national energy emergency.

We will drill, baby, drill.

Drill baby drill.

So what will this mean for industries like solar and wind?

With the president saying we have to focus on domestic fossil fuel production while solar is coming off another huge year of growth.

The US solar market installed nearly 50GW of capacity in 2024, a 21% increase from 2023.

Solar accounted for 66% of all new electricity generating capacity added to the US grid.

That's according to model multiple federal sources of information, and the growth is not exclusively in states that are politically blue.

New York had a huge year.

Yes.

California and Texas are leading the way in solar.

The Rochester region continues to see significant growth, but misinformation continues to dominate social media platforms.

The president has been one of the main sources of climate and energy misinformation.

But he's not alone.

We'll talk about that this hour, and we'll look at how federal and state policy could affect energy production going forward now.

It was a few months ago that we talked to the CEO of Green Spark Solar, Kevin Ciotti, about the different possible outcomes of the election and how they could affect the energy industry.

Well, now we're post-election, and let's talk about that.

Kevin's been talking to people in Albany next week going to Washington.

But today's on connections.

Welcome back to the program to you.

Thank you for having me.

it was a big year for New York and Solar, wasn't it?

Yeah.

So we installed 1.25GW of new solar last year, which was the largest year, in New York's history.

And we actually beat the the only sector of the CLC, EPA, which is the New York state's climate law, where we are ahead of schedule and under budget is the installation of distributed solar.

And so we're really proud of that.

We passed the six gigawatt, which was for 2025.

We passed it in September of 2024. we did it.

And we have spent less money at Nyserda and other places than was expected when the clock was signed.

So that's really, you know, sort of exciting for New York.

And now we're working on expanding those goals in New York State so that we can continue to pour, pour on more success in that space.

So part of what I wanted to do in that introduction is just paint an accurate picture of where we are.

and some of my data, Kevin always has a lot of data, might be a little bit different, but the overall picture is huge.

Another huge year for solar growth, not just in California, New York, Texas, or plenty of other southern states.

And so, when we look at what the federal government is prioritizing with energy policy, I'm curious to know if that means with this administration, we throw in the brakes on things.

Is there a way?

I mean, is there a way in your mind to convince members of Congress otherwise?

So that's kind of the picture we want to walk through this hour.

But is that an accurate picture of where we are that we are coming off a year in New York, but nationally, and now there are questions about what happens with this sector.

Don't don't miss the headline.

Right.

You said 66% of all new generation in the United States in 2024 was solar.

Yeah, that's more than gas.

That's more than coal.

That's more than oil.

That's more than nuclear.

Why?

Because this country is in an affordability crisis.

Solar is the cheapest, fastest form of getting new electrons on the grid.

Why doesn't the administration say that?

Because the administration.

Well, I mean, I don't want to chase the administration's policies.

sorry.

Politics on this stuff.

I only have the opportunity to try and affect their policy.

And so, you know, I don't know why.

Right.

My sense.

I mean, if you want.

This is not an educated opinion.

This is just my sense of politics.

Sure.

They took a lot of money from the oil and gas industry.

The oil and gas industry is saying give us more opportunity.

I think, unfortunately, American politics often boils down to that reality.

And so that's what we're dealing with.

So the fossil fuel industry wants to throw the brakes on solar, with the exception of the fact that you have seen even the CEO of ExxonMobil has said out loud, do not repeal the IRA, right, because ExxonMobil is now in the game.

They're not necessarily saying manufacturing, solar panels, but they are involved in coatings.

They are involved in the greases and oils that go into wind turbines and so heavily involved in this industry that they're making millions and billions of dollars in this industry, even though it's not as direct as their prime business, which is obviously oil and gas.

Can I ask you to expand your gaze to on fossil fuels for a second?

And if I'm asking you outside your expertise, no problem.

I'm sure you'll let me know.

I'm happy to give you my opinion.

But, when the president says drill, baby, drill.

When the president says we need to prioritize fossil fuel production, it ignores the fact, at least the facts that I've tried to I've tried to gather and really get an accurate picture of this.

It ignores the fact that the Biden administration was pretty big on domestic fossil fuel production, wasn't it?

We are producing more fossil fuels than in any time in the history of the country right now.

Today, we are producing so much that we are exporting natural gas.

So it's just a totally false moniker.

What it is intended to do, in my opinion, is to fight back against the move to electric cars.

What happens if you're an oil producer in West Texas and the electric car industry continues to grow at the rate that it's growing?

You have less people to sell your oil to.

Well, from the planet's perspective and my perspective, that's a really good thing, right?

From that industry's perspective, not such a good thing.

So that's who's paying the bill to get you elected to the white House.

Then you're probably going to chase that.

Those politics.

Okay.

So I want to ask you what you've been doing.

You were in Albany last week, yesterday.

I'm sorry.

Today's last two days.

Washington next week.

Yeah, I've been in Washington.

This will be my fourth trip this year to Washington.

Okay.

So very different.

obviously, dynamics.

Let's start on the national level because, well, that's what we're talking about now.

and you've got a Republican controlled Congress that is, at least outwardly pretty hostile to your industry.

But before the program began, you told me that there is some in your mind, some signs of optimism.

In what way?

What's going on?

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think it goes back like the statistic that rings a bell for me that we use regularly is 81% of all the dollars that the federal government committed in the Inflation Reduction Act.

Right.

Which was Biden's signature climate law from 2020 to 81% of those dollars have gone to red districts.

Right.

So you think about it, even here in New York state, most of the solar we're building is in our rural areas, which tend to vote, you know, Republican versus versus Democrat.

And so, you know, when you look at where that spend is and where the benefits of that law are going, right?

They are weighted in that direction.

Right?

You think of there's all kinds of things you can talk about Honda plant in Georgia for electric cars, right.

Solar power, solar factory in Alabama.

You know all of these.

Texas has three new solar factories Arizona new solar factory.

So all of these things, that's just the manufacturing side.

And then the projects, right.

You mentioned Texas and California.

Well, I believe Texas was number one.

Florida was number two, and Iowa was number three for utility scale solar installations next year, last year.

So like you're looking at three deep red states at this point, right.

Florida used to be purple.

It hasn't been purple.

No it's not.

But so you're looking at this.

You're saying so.

So then you ask yourself a question like if you're getting all these benefits, why wouldn't you want your member of Congress to support the thing that's driving that forward?

Well, because maybe some people would say, and I'm sure someone's going to email us in a moment to say the following.

Okay.

If solar is doing as well as you say, it is, why does it need the government?

Who who cares if President Trump wants to drill baby drill solar should survive on its own.

Yeah, so I got into an argument with a member of the Nicaea board, a friend of mine just yesterday on the concept of a free market.

Right.

Republicans like to wax poetically about this concept of a free market.

Well, unfortunately, energy is not a free market.

There are so many ways that the government is subsidizing, every form of energy from research and development to, you know, dealing with the the negative effects of pollution coming from plants to, you know, every dollar.

No.

And there is no underwriter, there's no private underwriter in the, in the United States that will underwrite a nuclear power plant.

So who underwrites that insurance for nuclear power?

The United States government.

How much do they charge them?

Zero.

Like I pay millions of dollars a year in insurance for my business.

Right.

So this, you know, this is a massive subsidy.

No one talks about it because it's not this sort of direct tax credit that's going out to solar.

I don't ask for, you know, I have to pay for every solar project I build.

We pay insurance so that if it causes a problem or this you have insurance, I pay for that.

Nuclear doesn't.

So as I think about all of these things, even up to and including, right, we're building roads.

Why?

For gas, cars to drive on.

That's a form of like all of these things that are pushing these industries forward.

Supporting the use of those things.

Right.

And then we because our tax credit is direct, it draws the ire of the population.

I think I think it would be accurate to say that there's very few pure free market politicians in the American government, and by that I mean those who want, some kind of unadorned competition or competitive state where the government doesn't subsidize or add credit or a write off or anything.

I don't think there's anybody that I know in state or federal government who believes that.

So when they argue, make it a free market.

They're not actually arguing for a free market.

When Walmart gets massive subsidies and the mom and pop stores close, the mom and pop stores were at a huge disadvantage to someone who already had, you know, sort of the power of scale and then had tax write offs and breaks.

So I, I think what you are saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is that that is a red herring, that the idea that, well, solar should just compete on its own.

There's not a soil and gas do not compete on their own.

There's not a well-educated person in the solar industry that wouldn't be perfectly willing to strip away every dollar spent on energy in any form.

Make it a free and let us compete.

Make it a pure free market all day.

All that give me that opportunity.

I would love that opportunity.

And we would win and you know, so.

But it's just not real, right?

Okay.

You know, one of the ways to, like, realize how not real it is, right, is if you look at Germany as a, for instance, right.

Germany's cost of electricity is significantly higher than ours.

They have what it would be sort of the opposite of a free market where they're actually taxing, right, fossil fuels when they get put on the grid.

Right.

And so they're driving their cost up and said, we subsidize everything.

And I think we're probably about three times the average cost of an electron, as we are here in the United States.

So like there's all different ways to approach.

They have massively more renewables on a percentage basis than we do.

Right?

So there's all sorts of ways to deal with this.

But I think trying to bring it back to this sort of free market concept is just not real.

So we have to talk about right energy policy is dealt with in the federal tax code.

And so that's that's the world we live in.

So let's go play in that game.

That's I think that's all we're trying to do on this program.

And listeners yesterday might have heard me get a little got my dander up a little when I just said, let's just stay in reality.

I mean, we can talk about whether you like policies or not, whether you like government cuts or ideas that are coming from different political sectors, that's fine.

But stay in reality.

You know, like, let's just evaluate reality and instead of just rhetoric and propaganda, well, that's the world I live in, right?

I have to a 550 employees.

I want them to have a job tomorrow.

I'm not thinking about reality and I'm off in, you know, outer space or some far off policy or cap and trade or any of these things.

That might be great ways to do this, right.

That doesn't actually help me keep those people employed.

Tomorrow to keep this industry moving forward.

And, you know, from, at our core, help the we believe help the earth from stop making, you know.

So Kevin Shields is the CEO of Green Spark Solar and so when you said you've been to Washington, I think some listeners would think, well, that is a waste of your time now because what happens is the Republican Party is voting in lockstep.

There's 1 or 2 dissenting votes on everything from CRS budget measures to cabinet nominations.

And so that's a waste of your time.

You got to focus on the state level.

We'll get to the state level.

I know you feel like you got to do that too, but why is it worth the effort in Washington if the Republicans have the vote to gut the IRA or kill a tax credit, or do what they want to do?

At my core, well, I believe in American democracy.

At my core, I believe in the American political system.

And most importantly, I believe that any conversation, any well-informed conversation, I have the opportunity to change someone's opinion based on data and science and evidence and fact.

And so all I want is those opportunities.

You don't feel that that's naive right now.

So what?

What if you're wrong?

That's naive.

And I've changed someone's opinion that creates value.

And so I'm going to keep doing it.

And there's a lot of people that tell me I'm naive.

And I tell them three times I've gotten a tax credit extended through Republican controlled houses of Congress in my career.

Why is it so different now?

Those are the same people.

They're still in office.

They're 100 years old now, but they're still in office.

When we did it in 2006 or 2018.

But like, that's what I believe.

I believe I can change people's opinions and I think we are doing that.

Okay.

So tell us then what it is that you're advocating for, specifically a tax credit, whatever it is.

what are you trying to either save or do and what the reception has been.

So in Washington right now, we are focusing on purple district Republicans to save the investment tax credits associated with solar.

For what it's worth, it's really important to understand that tax credits for solar and wind started in 1992 under Bill Clinton, have been expanded and contracted and changed many times over the years under Republican and Democratic leadership.

Right under the IRA, they were.

The value of the credits was expanded and extended for ten years.

And so if you extend it for ten years, that creates certainty in the market and you can bring in a lot more capital, invest in manufacturing, all of these sort of things that are really robust and moving forward in a really awesome way right now we are buying American made solar panels on the regular.

We are we have just we have just completed the design as a, for instance, for a domestic contents or an American made solar system that will go on the roof of Food Link, here in Rochester in the next couple of months.

That's a really exciting opportunity.

So we are helping a good cause.

We're saving them money in their electric bill.

We're doing it with American manufactured equipment.

I mean, come on.

That's that's that's the story.

Solar is American energy at this point because Joe Biden pushed it to be.

So we can we can blame him for anything we wanted to do.

But he revitalized solar manufacturing and battery storage manufacturing in the United States, and that's moving forward.

I think we shouldn't take that away.

Back to the point, under the IRA, there were the tax credit was extended for ten years, and there was these opportunities created.

If you use domestic content, you get an extra 10% tax credit.

If you deliver the power to low income families, you get an extra 10% tax credit.

If you're in an energy community, which is a community that has been negatively affected by fossil fuels existence in that community.

This was the this was the, Joe Manchin part of the bill because West Virginia coal, the whole state's been affected.

Right.

So energy community.

And so any of those things, you can get them.

So what we're asking Congress to do now is to preserve the 30% baseline, 30% federal tax credit and any of these things that they're willing to, but that the industry will continue to thrive at that basic 30% tax credit.

We'd really like to see.

Adam.

I'd like to see it all stay, don't get me wrong.

But, you know, in the horse trading of federal legislation, we would really like to see the continued fueling of domestic manufacturing, because that's going to be a great success story if we keep going.

What has the response been?

The so so there's a lot of nuanced conversation that goes on in Washington.

Right?

So the conversation right now is around what can folks save in general?

Can they save the ITC at all?

Right.

What can folks save from the IRA kind of ad hoc from the IRA.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Because you go down there and actually, in some of my early trips to Washington earlier this year, the Democrats would tell you, you guys are fighting against all out repeal of the IRA.

So just it was signed, you eliminate that law that is really feels off the table at this moment.

You don't think repeal is possible?

I don't think repeal is possible.

Why is that?

Well, I think there's there's well so you you sort of said that the Republican Party is in lockstep.

My witness on the ground is that the Republican Party is more fractured than I've seen it be since George W Bush was the president.

And the reason for that is you have Chip Roy in the Freedom Caucus, far right Republicans that are budget hawks.

So they just voted for the first time ever since they were formed in like two 2008.

I think the Tea Party sort of came around.

So since 2008, they voted for the first time ever for a CR, which is a continuing resolution, which is basically saying we're going to fund the budget for some period.

We're going to fund the country for some period of time.

On the last set of rules.

Right?

So the government doesn't shutdown, so the government doesn't shutdown, correct?

Yeah.

And and the Democrats have always had to save the Republicans through this because, you know, the 60 or 80 members of the Freedom Caucus to the far right have always said we're not doing it.

So Democrats have across the aisle side with Republican side with Republicans, a sign that.

So when you go to write the Trump tax cuts, which is the that's the bill where they're going to try and do all this stuff, right.

They're going to try and extend his tax credits, $4.5 trillion of cost.

We all that number has been thrown around.

No one's disputing that number.

It's a real number.

And so how many things can we cut out of the budget in order to pay for that?

What the far right.

They care about paying for it.

The centrists don't write the centrist and the and the and the, you know, the MAGA folk, they just want the tax cut.

Because that's what Trump said to get.

And so they don't really care that it would dramatic in your budget.

You would dramatically expand the deficit of the United States.

Yeah.

You know so so that's what you've got.

You've got three factions.

And then you have the centrists.

And the centrists are the folks in these purple districts that actually care about climate.

You know, they're building solar.

You know, we have in New York, we have five.

We have six Republican, Congress folks, and for them are on Long Island.

One of them is in like, Westchester County.

And then one of them is, I should say we have six gettable Republicans.

So, like, centrist.

And then we have Claudia Tenney, who is, you know, surrounding Rochester in Syracuse in some of the rural areas.

And she's on the Ways and Means Committee.

And so which which category is Congresswoman Tenney in?

She's been very friendly to me.

I've had multiple conversations with her this year, with her directly and with her staff, and they've been friendly on the concept that they understand that a ton of solar is getting done in their district, and that it would hurt their district to take it away.

So she's on the Ways and Means Committee.

So typically in a legislative context, someone on the committee won't commit to things until the chairperson of that committee says it.

Okay, okay.

So if I could just finish.

Yeah.

So she has not signed on to the letter that we have helped support, Congressman Andrew Guarino from Long Island, along with the other four downstate Republican representatives from New York and 16 other Republicans from around the country, sent a letter to the head of the House Ways and Means Committee, which writes the tax code for the United States, saying, do not cut the tax credits from clean energy.

And so we've been working to get that group expanded.

We think there are 3 or 4 members of the Ways and Means Committee that ultimately agree with that position, but they won't say it out loud to buck the chairperson until it's time until it's time to vote.

How many votes do you need to get?

We our belief is our goal was 20 and we got 2020 Republicans, 20 Republicans.

And our belief was 20 because we feel like the president will roll four or 6 or 8, but it will be really hard to roll 20.

And so what happens if you get 20 is maybe we just don't talk about this issue so that there's not a win or loss that is so important to this president.

It's just a sort of you don't need a dance in the end zone.

I don't need a dance at the end.

In fact, the more publicity, the more it becomes a target for the white House to try to pick off these members that you think you have picked off.

Correct?

Okay.

Well, I don't know.

I don't know the PR of it.

That's not maybe my not my expertise.

No, I mean, it's an interesting strategy because you're saying right now we don't need to be loud, we just need to get the votes to save this.

do you think, I mean, if you get how many signed on right now to a letter on this 21, 21 you wanted 20, you've got 21 signed.

And we think we have four others that that won't say it out loud.

And you only need in the final vote.

You only need three I need three.

So do you think with the with a letter of 21 or 25 or whatever the final number is that at least three of them will follow through on that?

I do, I do, so you're going to say I do, but let me nuance my answer.

Okay.

I believe we will save portions of the tax credits for renewables with this coalition.

And I believe it is a time of odd bedfellows in Washington, you know, so I actually am currently of the belief that I think it is a long shot for the Republicans to get their budget reconciliation done, because I think their party's that fractured.

So that actually helps me the longer they go.

so I'm right now I'd be a betting person.

I would say the best case scenario is like September, that they would get budget reconciliation done for, for for the listeners that don't understand, budget reconciliation is a process by which you only need a one vote majority in both houses of Congress to get it passed, versus normal law, which requires a larger majority and a 60 vote majority in the Senate.

And so I think that's where I'm at right now.

But I do believe that we will preserve some aspects.

Now, I think there are some important aspects of the tax code that are in trouble.

And that's really what I'm fighting for right now.

I have concerns as a, for instance, around all the consumer tax credits, the electric vehicle tax credit, the Clean Heat tax credit, Energy star tax credits like new windows, new siding, new insulation, all that that all those consumer credits I have concern about.

Right?

When you go on your TurboTax and fill out your taxes and it says, did you install new windows this year?

And you get a $600 tax credit for that?

I think that kind of stuff.

Is that risk lumped into that in the Joint Committee on Taxes report?

Is the credit to use solar and storage at a residential level.

So we are working with the Joint Committee on Tax to separate those things and illuminate for us right now to illuminate the number of jobs associated with residential solar and storage.

I have a lot to cover with Kevin Schultz, so I'm going to try to move quicker.

But I just want you to explain one other thing here.

When you say the solar credit, you think you can get enough Republicans to save it because the Republican Party, in your view, is fractured.

It's not a monolith.

It's not just going to take orders from the white House because some will, but some are committed to different priorities, like Chip Roy and, about a balanced budget or a zero debt budget.

some are in purple districts and if they do unpopular things, they're in trouble.

But isn't that also true?

Then on the other things, I wouldn't do it if that is true.

If your formulation that is true, that's not true just for solar.

That's true for everything else.

You just my energy star it ev credits.

Yeah.

I mean isn't that true everywhere.

Yeah.

So right there so in downstate New York we have very expensive homes on the south shore of Long Island, in Manhattan, in different places.

And so the downstate Republicans are fighting for a removal of a cap on a thing called the state and local tax, which has a $10,000 maximum of the amount of property taxes you pay.

That is a write off on your salt, salt.

Our fracking, our coalition of 21 Republicans, I think, is in trouble if they have to go to bat over salt versus clean energy, they would take salt, right?

So my hope is that that doesn't happen.

It is a largely, salt is is usually supported by Republicans.

So we think that will it won't be a sort of quid pro quo or tit for tat.

It will hopefully we can get both of them through.

But that's the sort of thing that we're playing politics around.

All right.

Let me get a couple questions on this.

And then we're talking about other things with Kevin briefly, if you are wrong and if we lose this solar credit, how much does the industry get hurt?

What happens?

What's the consequence?

I believe the genie is out of the bottle for solar specifically meaning that the industry is long enough, large enough, and strong enough that on some level we will continue to press forward.

And there are places where projects can work without certain tax credits.

I also believe that some significant portion of the 300,000 people that work in the solar business will lose their jobs if we don't, so we're not going to let that happen, Alex says.

Both one House budgets include doubling the solar tax credit up to $10,000.

The executive proposal didn't.

Where do you see this and other green initiatives like Cap and Invest falling in the final budget?

Great question.

So I just spent the last two days in Albany, where we were thanking legislators on both the House and the Assembly in the Senate for including the bill that, so I work on the board of the New York State, New York Solar Energy Industries Association.

And our lobby day was the last two days.

And we wrote the bill to expand the residential solar tax credit from 5000 to 10,000.

We included storage equipment in it.

And this is a modernization.

This this tax credit has been around since 2006, was expanded.

was never expanded from the $5,000 cap.

So we're right sizing it to inflation.

We're including storage.

And most importantly, we're making it refundable so that low income houses and seniors on fixed income can actually utilize the credit in a way that they haven't previously been able to.

So very exciting.

It also removes a cap on, for condos and co-ops, in that matters more for downstate than it would for up here.

But it's a very good bill.

We wrote the bill.

It's getting it passed.

We're excited.

We think that the governor, although she didn't include it in her budget, we believe that she will support it in the final thing.

So we're so we're hopeful and we believe that cuts in to the potential detriment of federal changes.

Right.

And that's the pitch we're making in New York is you have to step up if they're not going to be there.

And so, we think that we'll pass, the final one, cap and invest, I think, has a less certain future.

I'm not an expert on cap and invest, because it's a system that will take years to implement and things like that.

but I, I don't know, I don't I think it has a more uncertain future.

Alex.

Great question.

and it led Kevin right into explaining why he's been lobbying in Albany, essentially looking for a little bit of insulation against possible federal changes.

So there's three things, but that is that is the one in the very short term under the budget, we think we're going to get done.

One of the other two, the other two are related to our relationship for community and distributed solar, with the utility trying to get them to modernize their system on the cost of the developer.

And then three is working with towns and other municipalities around the state to make, reasonable solar laws.

that will help support the continued growth of the industry.

Dallas has a couple of comments.

First, he said regarding Germany, he's heard Germany screwed because of their energy policy.

That was his words.

What do you think?

I don't think Germany is screwed.

I think that the the the shutdown of certain central generation power plants in Germany may have been too precipitous to support, their thing, but those plants still exist and can come back online, so I don't think they're screwed at all.

I think they are dancing with, you know, repowering, old generation if they need to.

And he went on to say on the subject of 66%, again, that number is solar accounting for 66% of all new electric electricity generating capacity added to the United States grid last year in the last.

Is that right?

But what is the story?

Yes, that is exactly correct.

What does that story tell you?

Well, here's what I'm gonna tell you what Dell says, and then you can answer that however you want.

He says he thinks that's related to how difficult regulations have made constructing anything, unless it's a government favored industry like solar.

Yeah, we're so favored.

is that sarcasm?

That was strong sarcasm.

we are government supported as as are all energy.

We are easier to cite because we are environmentally friendly.

We are less visibly intrusive.

We are, you know, generally more, friendly.

We are easier to get on the grid.

We are cheaper.

I said at the beginning, we have an affordability crisis.

We are cheaper.

People need cheap electrons.

We are adding data centers.

We are adding, clean heat, electric heat.

We're adding electric vehicles.

We need more electrons.

We're the fastest way to get them.

We also so happen to be the cheapest way to get them.

Okay, when we come back from our only break of the hour, I want to tell you what I'm gonna ask Kevin to do, but, only if he's good with it, because my goal is part of this program was to bring to Kevin's.

On this program, listeners may know Kevin Williams, who is a long time local meteorologist.

He was with work for years.

There's you know, I'm I think he's a very good meteorologist from what I've seen.

Very good at that part of the job.

He talks a lot about politics online.

He's blocked me.

So, he's not been a fan of my response to some of his commentary about things like solar, but he has a lot of followers, and I would love for the Kevin's to talk it out on this program.

Is it okay if I asked you a few questions about what he's claiming about solar?

Is that a ray?

All right, let's do that on the other side of this break and we'll come back with Kevin Shelton.

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Coming up in our second hour, an homage to the hit YouTube show Hot Ones, in which celebrities sit down with the host and taste through a series of ten hot sauces, progressively hotter to see if they can handle it well.

One of the hot sauces featured in multiple seasons is called Karma Sauce.

It's from Rochester.

The creator is with us, and we're going to do our own little tasting of hot, hotter and hottest.

I don't do that well.

Should be entertaining next hour.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

so sometime I would love it if, meteorologist Kevin Williams wanted to join this program.

Not on his own to talk about climate change.

He'd be welcome to talk about why he has the views he has and to just talk it out.

I think we should do that now.

The reason he he would not be a solo guest on climate change is he's not a climatologist.

he's a meteorologist.

It's a different thing.

But Kevin's a very smart guy and very good at his job.

But this is an example of some of what he has been writing lately on ECS about climate change.

He wrote two weeks ago, quote, meteorological winter, December 1st to February 28th is now over.

How did commercial solar power production perform in the Rochester area this past winter?

According to Nyserda, it generated electricity at 3.7% capacity.

Clouds and snow will do that.

And he responded, so many system will.

Solar power here is the most ridiculous thing.

And Kevin writes, it boggles the mind.

And as always, follow the money trail.

He goes on to answer another question.

Someone asked him, Does New York have any solar projects that score better than 25% at any time?

And he writes, that would be extremely uncommon.

The national average, which includes the sunny southwest, is less than 25% nationally.

Solar is the least efficient and reliable of the primary energy or energy sources, followed closely by wind.

End quote.

That's Kevin Williams.

So you can take it point by point, but well, I'll ask you to take my point.

So first, how did commercial solar power production perform in the Rochester area this past winter?

According to I started, it generated electricity at 3.7% of capacity.

Clouds and snow will do that.

Solar power here is the most ridiculous thing.

As expected, is the answer.

Like I've been building solar in this state for over a decade.

I've been building wind and solar in the state for two and a half decades.

if you think that multiple billions of dollars are being invested in this stuff, and we don't contemplate that, there may be a moment where a snowflake covers a solar panel and it doesn't make electricity.

Then I don't believe were the morons.

I think it would be the people that I think that an investor is going to spend that money without thinking about that problem.

Might not be the smartest person.

Sorry.

So I, I can get a little wrangled up on this stuff too.

So, you know, you can cut me off if you need to.

So the reality is two things.

One, it's expected.

Two, there is no solar person on Earth that claims that we are the only opportunity to power the grid.

We recognize the need to work with other technologies to create the baseload of power that is required to power our society.

We are not trying to be the end all, be all.

We are something like 7% of the state's electricity profile right now.

So we would like we think we can be dramatically more than that and be successful.

But we know we can't be all we are.

For what it's worth, the perfect cooperative with wind.

Because guess what was happening when it was snowing?

Cold?

It was also windy.

So those wind turbines were turning.

They were making electricity.

So these things work in unison when the sun's not shining the windows and we know.

And the New York, New York state just released its roadmap for storage.

So then when I'm not using the solar power in the summer because you can't consume it all.

We'll put it in a battery and we'll save it till we need it.

We can do that at the residential level.

We can do that at the grid level.

We can do that at the solar project level, whatever level you want.

That technology is now coming along.

And it's a really exciting time as New York's got a roadmap to integrate that into the grid.

which also makes our grid smarter.

It makes our grid more affordable right now.

Sometimes you go ask, hey, can I put this solar project on this line segment?

And they'll say, 42 million bucks because I got to rebuild the substation at the end of that line, because that substation was built in the 1970s, because that's the status of our grid.

And so all of those things can happen, and maybe we can avoid that upgraded substation if we use battery storage in new technologies, rather than just thinking about the way we always have.

So that's my the first.

You can go to the second part and remember.

Well, I mean, I do feel like the idea that sometimes it snows is like, hey, at 3 a.m., I can be burning fossil fuels, but what are you doing, solar guy?

Nothing.

Bet you never thought of that.

Never thought of it.

So.

Okay.

I would like to make a point on this as well that just like.

What a.

You know, we should all understand that the time when New York State is most in need of electrons from its generating capacity is in the middle of summer, when everyone has their air conditioners on.

And guess when just so happens to be the time when I make the most solar power, right?

So like the the coincidence of we use the most electricity at this time and we can make the most out of solar is really pretty awesome, right?

So, you know, there's a really simple set of answers to this.

Kevin also links, he says, the national average, which includes the sunny southwest, is less than 25% capacity for solar.

He says nationally, solar is the least efficient and least reliable the primary energy sources, followed closely by wind, and he links to a graph from I don't know what I don't the capacity factor.

I don't know what that is.

So the capacity factor says if there is X amount of fuel, then you get y amount of electricity out of that fuel.

So it's how much electricity can I get out of all the potential the fuel might have.

So on that chart it has nuclear at 93%.

Yep.

And that is true.

If you take the uranium fuel rod and you say, how much of the electricity can I get out energy?

Can I get out of this form of fuel?

We get 93%.

That's a great thing.

Here's the problem.

A nuclear power plant hasn't been permitted in this country in 30 years, and they would take ten years to build and tariff and industrial policy and all these things.

I mean, no one wants to invest in them because a ten year construction cycle, who knows what the actual cost would be.

So nuclear is I hope it can help us because it's not a climate impacting technology.

You'd like to see more nuclear.

The new types of reactors, not the old type, but they are not near term solutions.

And data centers are coming near term.

But you are saying you're not an anti-nuclear guy.

I have been for most of my life, and I, because of the level of crisis that climate has got us into.

I have become more accepting of nuclear.

It has other problems with the environment that from both the mining and disposal that we have to deal with.

But like because that isn't baking the earth, which is our most pressing environmental thing right now.

That's why I'm more accepting than I've been in my past.

Okay.

And so going down the capacity factor nuclear 93%.

Natural gas 56.8.

Coal 47%.

Hydropower 39%.

Wind 34%.

Solar 24.5%.

So if you think about wind and hydro, because they're kind of the same thing, if you take 100% of the power out of the moving water, guess what happens?

The wind stops pulling.

You're like, that's a wall, right?

So you have to have actually something moving, right.

Lift and drag is meaningful thing.

So you have to have some coming out the back side.

If you took 100%, the technology wouldn't work.

And with sun, with solar, why I think all of this is silly is because 24.5% is the current theoretical maximum amount of electricity I can get from a commercial solar panel out the other side.

That's how far the physics have come.

But the thing about hydro and wind and solar is we're harnessing something that's just there.

The water is flowing, the sun is shining, the wind is blowing.

They're just there.

So we're just grabbing what we can in as efficient a way as possible to get energy out of something that used to just, you know, screw up your hairdo.

Okay.

So so what you're saying is, if the only thing you care about is how efficient is the energy, then we will we'll just stick with the dirtiest sources, right?

Because when you talk about coal and you talk about oil, and you talk about gas and you talk about nuclear, what do you have to do every year forever to keep making it work?

No answer.

If the biofuel, if so, every year I go buy fuel.

So in in the businesses I work in, I don't have to buy any fuel.

It's just there.

And we'll always be going to say I have to burn something.

But yeah, yeah, that's true too.

We can talk about that in another time.

But the reality is it's just it's a little bit of a silly place to put the comparison, because physics is a meaningful thing.

And we would you again, I don't know that Kevin Williams wants to come on this program or I and I hope he doesn't distrust me.

I mean, again, he's I think he's he's proven himself as a great meteorologist.

Would you come out and talk to him about this?

Any time I talk to anybody, you know me, but I just want to make one more point.

Yeah.

The economics are what matter who's investing in what in.

The reality is 66% are investing in solar.

Why cheapest helps with the affordability crisis.

Like I'm going to say it over and over and over again.

I don't care what the capacity factor is.

I don't care if my solar farms don't get 24.5% theoretical efficiency.

What they get is a solid return that gets me to draw investment into the state and and make more electrons to power our new needs.

One other thing on that, and then we'll squeeze it in as much as we can with the rest of the time.

Here is I don't really understand Kevin's point about, as always, follow the money trail.

I mean, I that would lead you to fossil fuels, I would think, I would think, and it's certainly not going to lead you to my house in Webster.

but I mean, again, I want to know more about why he says that.

So, Charles on YouTube says Kevin Schulz, he understands old school politics and how to actually get things done.

Stay the course, Kevin.

The slings and arrows from people who can't see beyond their own noses.

Stay the course.

Appreciate it.

That's from Charles.

And this, another question comes in.

China manufactures 85% of the world's solar panels.

The US accounts for a mere 2.2% of solar panel production.

Does the guest have thoughts on the impact of tariffs on the ability to get more solar panel production?

Here?

Industrial policy in the United States is a very complicated thing.

Is this one of the areas that tariffs may have a positive effect like over time?

Yeah that maybe I don't I it's again not not necessarily my area of expertise.

We do not import solar panels.

We import we use solar panels that are built in the United States right now and may or may not import the silicon wafers that are the sort of dark color you see on the front of the solar panel.

Yeah, may or may not import that material to be assembled in the United States in, in in some cases, like the Food Link project I mentioned, they are actually going to use modules that have the cells and wafers that are also manufactured in the United States, with silicon coming from a US silicon mine.

So the tariff policy does not help us get that program off the ground.

The value of the I.R.A.

over time says, you make it in the United States.

I'll incentivize you.

But eventually that weans so that they have to be competitive on a global market.

So depending on what they keep in place from the IRA and what happens with tariffs, this is like getting into this really intense area of industrial policy that we just are not aligned on.

So I'm in a little bit of wait and see.

Right now where it's really affecting us is aluminum, copper, steel.

Right.

I put steel in the ground.

I use aluminum, copper wires like those prices.

We're just we're feeling the heat on it.

Right.

We're getting those prices are going up because of tariffs.

Well maybe again complicated.

It's complicated but deep in the market right.

Like the you know if you look at electricity prices in New York state since November.

Right.

Remembering that in this part of New York, we import most of our, natural gas from Canada and a significant portion of our electricity from Canada.

And so if you look at prices since November, before heating season, right, really kicked in, we've been up 100% year on year.

Okay.

I think that's probably Canada responding to the threats.

Yeah.

And so I think the politics of that play out in advance of the policy.

And I think we're seeing some of that already.

I got two minutes.

We got to go really fast.

Suzanne says one way to help is to offer 0% interest loan to purchase.

We are purchasing another solar panel installment in Rochester as a defense defensive move, against the lack of planning of our government to plan for future needs.

It is also our way of resisting the current administration and investing in the environment for our grandchildren.

That's from Suzanne.

Another question from a listener similar do I need if I'm interested in solar?

Do I need to get them now because of what may change with the federal government, I would I did, you know, like I expanded the system at mines.

Easy for you to say.

Yes.

Well, but you think pragmatically those those people I work with charged me for it.

But pragmatically, cost could change.

I think cost could change.

I think, you know, I think we're going to keep the tax.

I'm going to fight hard for it.

But like the tax credit, if I were to say it's not at risk, I'd just be lying.

There is a risk that it could go away.

So going this year, particularly for residential, I would absolutely encourage everyone to do it last minute here you got some changes and where are you all located?

Tell us a little bit of news about Greensburg.

Yeah.

Green sparks moving downtown.

So we are we are building our long term headquarters at the corner of Smith and Vincent Street.

That'll be ready for us in 2027.

And we are moving, in in a month and a half.

We are moving to the old Family Dollar on East Main Street.

One, where we'll be located.

we just feel we want to be, you know, more a part of the fabric.

Fabric of the Rochester economy.

And being downtown really supports that.

It also allows us to continue to diversify our hiring from every neighbor in the city and to keep educating people from the fourth grade level all the way on up that, there is really dignity and meaning to the work in the solar and electric trades.

Are you at cruising altitude with employees?

Are you still growing?

There's a lot of solar to build, so we'll grow right now.

I think my partners may want us to slow down, but I'm.

They're speaking me, and someone's got to do something about it.

So we'll we're going to do as much as we can.

We are still growing.

We are adding headcount, but, how many, how many employees these days?

We're a little over 150.

And, there's some more hires come.

Thank you for making time for the program today.

I appreciate you.

And that's Kevin Schultz, who is the CEO of Green Spark Solar.

again, open invitation for a number of people from different sectors to come out and continue this conversation productively.

That's important.

And speaking of, I just want to encourage you be on the Sky news YouTube channel.

The next hour is going to be unlike anything we've ever done here, and it it may be my last.

I don't do hot sauce.

Well, you're going to see something weird coming up.

It's next.

Up.

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