>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Well, our connection this hour was made during the childhood of Henry Louis Gates Jr.. As he explains in an upcoming PBS docu series, he only really thought in his early years when he thought about race in terms of black and white.

He says.

It wasn't until years later, when he learned about anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, that gates came to see how endlessly flexible the idea of difference can be.

In his remarks for PBS new docuseries called Black and Jewish America, gates says, quote, across history, Jews have been mocked and feared, blamed and banished, envied and imitated, and so have black people.

We share that experience and we share something else as well a duty to keep fighting hatred wherever it shows up, end quote.

But it hasn't always been easy, and the PBS series, we learned that the relationship between Black Americans and Jewish Americans has been defined by solidarity, but strained at times by division and conflict.

And we preview the series this hour with a discussion about the history of that alliance and what it looks like at the local level.

This conversation is part of WXXI app celebration of Black History Month and our guests this hour, let me welcome the Reverend Dr.

Rickey B. Harvey Sr., Senior Senior Pastor at Mount Olivet Baptist Church.

Thank you for being here, pastor.

Thanks for being with us.

>> Thank you so much for having me here again.

>> It's nice to see you.

>> Nice to see you too.

>> And welcome as well to Rabbi Peter Stein, who's senior rabbi at Temple B'rith Kodesh.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you so much.

Evan.

>> Across the table.

Hello, Gaynelle Wethers.

Welcome back to the program Director of Education at Baden Street Settlement.

>> Thank you very much.

>> And Colonel Andre Evans back with us as well.

Thank you for making time for the program.

>> Thank you very much.

Evan.

>> A lot of talk.

We're going to have a lot of talk about history, both in general, but also in this community.

But I'm going to go around the table and I'm just going to start Gaynell was saying before the program, you know, we were talking about what do we have to make sure we talk about here?

This is a series that is not going to be easy for some folks.

I mean, certainly it will challenge you.

It will challenge stereotypes or assumptions you have about history and Gaynelle Wethers.

You know, we should talk about race, about kind of what Henry Louis Gates Jr.

was saying about just growing up thinking it's race just means black white, period.

What do you think?

>> Well, it was interesting to me is that most people don't know.

I grew up under racism.

in terms of going to the colored bathrooms, drinking out the colored water fountains, going to segregated schools.

And I don't think our history really really describes it such that people can understand individuals can understand the depth and the level of hatred.

that was felt.

And I think that really sometimes gets glossed over when we're trying to move forward in terms of idealism.

so sometimes when individuals talk about that, it triggers things in me that I have to hold back on.

>> So when I think about if we think about bigotry as a disease, it's not going to be a perfect parallel.

But one thing that comes to mind for me, listening to your story is this a couple of weeks ago, we were talking to disease specialists and they said, you know, there's still people alive who had polio, who dealt with polio, had family, who lost people to polio.

But the farther away, the further away you get in history from the worst of of that kind of thing, the more people convinced themselves that it wasn't that bad, right?

Maybe it wasn't a big deal.

Maybe it's overblown.

And when you describe having grown up the way you did and telling the stories and surprising people, are you worried that the further we get from maybe really the depths of that, the more people will convince themselves that was never that bad?

>> Yes.

And I see it all the time.

I'll tell a quick.

I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana.

I wanted to become a nun, and I wanted to be a missionary, but I couldn't join the convent because they were all white.

And so I was educated by all black women who were sisters of the Holy Family, who are still around, many of them.

And I don't think people understand the level of hatred that I experienced, that I had to work through and still do.

You know, I had white people spit in my food.

We'd go to the restaurant like Walgreens or whatever, sit at the lunch counter, wouldn't be served.

And I don't think, people can understand the depth of the level of hatred that was felt.

And people experience.

I don't want you to experience it, but try to understand how bad it really was in terms of everything that we did and how we lived.

And it's taken a while to get through it all.

but to see it today, in terms of issues when I see people who are alive who experienced that and was hoping things would change, they died under seeing the worst of us and not the best of us.

>> Colonel, you still think the best of us is possible.

>> Oh, I absolutely do.

This conversation for me is personal.

Like, you know, we come from I come from four hours west of her in a little town called New Iberia, Louisiana.

And for me, it's personal because the first job I had out of the fields was in the library run by a Jewish lady who saw in me something.

And that job during that summer was spending time reading and so I was supposed to be a janitor, but because she taught me about the Jewish faith, she talked about the moral obligation on to social justice.

And in in that in that summer of teaching me and and learning and just opening up that benevolence to me helped me grow as a person.

My one of my friends growing up was was Nathan Levin.

His father worked at a store called Abdallah's, which was a upscale men's clothing store.

and he taught me that extension of love, that extension of grace, that extension of solidarity.

Whenever my grandmother needed clothes.

You know, the first shoes without any, any holes in them came from Miss Levin.

because he would give lagniappe.

He would give something extra to my grandmother.

I had these long, gangly arms, and he made sure that my my shirts and my and my clothes fit nice so that I could not look like a fool and look like something special.

So throughout my life, I've had this very close personal relationship with the with, with, with people of the Jewish faith and Jewish ethnicity.

my best friend here, and also I was one of the first members of Mount Olivet who attended the first service.

My best friend is Michael Argaman, who's a member of the Temple B'rith Kodesh.

His father Herb Ross, was the late Herb Ross was one of my mentors.

When I left active duty.

so there's always been this relationship with me and the Jewish people.

that opened up.

The bigger question is that if we sit and talk and learn about each other, there's always a greater possibility to grow greater in ourselves and in our faith, and also how we can reach across.

So even though many people read Jews as white, that that is conditional.

and so they understand the struggle, they understand that common shared hatred.

just for what you are they move in and out of the greater community as we cannot just visually, but is always powerful to have that relationship.

>> Reverend Harvey, what's the first thing that stands out for you when you think about this relationship that we're going to be seeing on PBS between black Americans and Jewish Americans?

>> Well, I think about the differences that we share together as in terms of our spirituality.

But I also think about how the differences that we share together have been weaponized.

and as to who has suffered the most, who has hurt the most, who's been through the most.

And I think if we, look at how we how much we have in common in terms of sharing the same moral values, sharing the same love values, there are so many values that we have in common that I think would bring us closer together and cause us to have more unity in our community just by looking at what do we have in common and not who's who has the most disparities?

Because we both do.

And I think that's one of the things we have in common.

And it's, it's it's so easy to take the, the, the big things and make them bigger, the small things and make them bigger.

But I think with what Temple B'rith Kodesh is doing with Mount Olivet and vice versa, I think, and we continue to say, what where do we go from here?

We take the words of Dr.

King and say, where do we go from here?

But it's the little steps that we take together by coming on your side of town and worshiping with you, and you coming on our side of town and worshiping with you, and you're not adjusting your worship, but you worship the way you worship.

And we love you for who you are.

And then you come to us and we don't adjust ours.

we worship together and we experience it.

And I really never seen anything like it.

And if we could duplicate that kind of two day unity to make it more than two days, the two day love.

It's a love affair.

It's a unity like no other.

And we could duplicate that, expand that, and cause our community to share that.

I think things would be different.

>> What derails that effort?

>> Well, I think the weaponization of of of who's who's hurt the most, who, who needs the most.

And I think the fact that we have not intentionally, made strong efforts to expand it beyond a holiday, a king holiday.

And I'm not sure that we have not done that because historically, the church and the temple, they did more than just the holidays.

There were some teaching, there were some Hebrew teachings.

there was some Christian teachings and, and the absence of knowledge beyond our simple selves is one of the things, I think, that derails that.

>> Rabbi, what stands out to you as we get ready for this PBS docu series?

>> So what I'm thinking about is, is really two things.

One is part of the subtext to this conversation or the backdrop of this conversation is these two historic partnerships that that the Temple B'rith Kodesh and Baden Street settlement have been together for over a century, over 100 years of partnership.

And as Reverend Harvey mentioned, the connection between the Temple and Mount Olivet Church that's been going on for over 40 years.

So these are very long historic partnerships that on the one hand, we should be very proud of and we continue to work on them and we continue to develop them.

But there are also a hint that there's a lot more work to be done in developing the relationships, identifying the needs, responding to the urgent needs in the community and listening to some of the comments about growing up in the in the South, growing up in, in New Orleans, I'm thinking about a recent event, and I mentioned it when we were together at Mount Olivet, that there was an arson attack at our sister temple in Jackson, Mississippi, just a few weeks ago.

And not only was it a tragic event, but part of the tragedy was it was not the first time that an arson had taken place at Beth Israel Congregation in Jackson, Mississippi.

It happened, at the hands of the Ku Klux Klan during the early years of the civil rights movement.

And so, as far as we've come, as much as there is to be proud of, there's a lot more work for us to do together.

>> you know, Rabbi, when when we heard that PBS was doing the series, honestly, I thought I tip my cap to them.

This is not an easy subject.

Over the years, when we talk about this on this program, it's been a lot of hurt, a lot of pain.

and hopefully, truly, I'm not just, you know, sort of saying this, I think to the Reverend's point.

Also a lot of surprising unity and shared experience.

But some of I think the risk comes from seeing the experience for what it is, which is a lot of similarity, but but difference.

And early on in the docuseries, the parts I've seen one of the commenters points out that among black Americans, there has sometimes been a resentment of Jews because, in their words, Jews had access to the benefits of whiteness, and that tension has threatened to disrupt the solidarity between Jews and black people.

And I want to just start by asking, you know, what what we do with that?

You acknowledge it.

I mean, acknowledge differences of experience while also seeing similarity and solidarity.

What do you do with that, Rabbi?

>> Such a such a good question.

And I think for me.

There are two elements.

One is, you know, the old saying that we have two ears and one mouth that that I want to listen and learn.

I don't claim to understand the lived experience of, of black people in America, because that's not my own lived experience.

I remember years ago when my son was learning to drive, having a conversation with a black parent, another parent talking about the different feelings.

I was worried that he was going to crash the car.

He was worried that his son was going to have an encounter with the police because of because of his color, because of his race.

So I think that to me, I very quickly and as loudly as I can, I'm going to say, I don't know the experience.

It's not my lived experience.

The Jewish community is in an unusual place because we are sort of two things simultaneously.

We have a lot of privilege in a sense, a lot of whiteness to our identity.

And then at the same time, being Jewish means we face anti-Semitism and we face discrimination in different ways.

So if we're if we're listening to each other, if we're showing a genuine curiosity, eagerness to learn from one another, that's where we're going to make progress.

>> I'll read again, Rabbi, what Henry Louis Gates Jr.

says in this series.

He says across history, Jews have been mocked and feared, blamed and banished, envied and imitated, and so have black people.

We share that experience.

So where there, of course, is difference of experience, it seems to me that there's still a lot of place of solidarity with some of that pain.

>> Yes, I think within a short period of time we saw the terrible attack at Mother Emanuel Church in South Carolina and the terrible attack on Tree of Life synagogue.

So we're all hurting and we all have a need to to respond and build things up.

That's going to come when we when we work together, when we identify common need and we say we're going to make a difference together.

>> Reverend, can you describe a little bit about that historical concept that the the docuseries explores, which is that sometimes that relationship has been fraught because black Americans have essentially said to Jewish Americans, look, you've got the benefits of the access to the representation of whiteness that we don't have.

And in this society, that's an advantage that's hard for people to understand if they haven't been in a black person's shoes.

What do you do with that?

>> It's it's hard now.

My life is different.

I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, in the 60s.

I grew up where Dr.

Martin Luther King was assassinated.

I lived a quarter of a mile from where he was assassinated.

I saw the helicopters.

I saw the people running to the Lorraine Motel.

I stood down in the street, holding on to my mom's leg, asking what's going on?

And she was saying, Dr.

King has been shot.

With that being said having seen all of that, I didn't really grow up in in the racist part of life.

I grew up where people were taught, we were taught I have six sisters and two brothers, and we never heard racism in our in our home.

My parents were hard workers.

They taught us to work hard.

And you could become.

And I ran across I ran into problems in life because I didn't see everything that everybody saw.

I think it I don't think it is racism.

It is hard.

There is a difference between the U.S.

and them.

But one of the things that I made a note of is that God never erased the differences to create unity.

the Bible shows so much differences.

There are distinct tribes.

There are distinct languages.

There are distinct nations.

but we are called to share commitments to justice.

We may never be the same.

We may never eat the same foods.

We may never live in the same neighborhoods.

We may not drive and live in the same kind of houses, but we should be committed to justice, committed to everybody having mercy.

And everybody being shown grace and righteousness belongs to all of us.

Good treatment belongs to all of us.

That's how I see it.

>> Well, and let me pick up that thread, Andre Evans.

I think about one of the things that has been truly confusing to me in witnessing the national political discourse that often centers the idea of Christian identity, is I would I would say that some of the least forgiving or least kind or least generous people to those who are different are some Christian nationalist leaders.

And I don't understand that.

If you're actually reading the story of the historical Jesus, his commandment to love your enemy as yourself is not easy, but it's still, you know, I mean, it's it should still be a North Star if you if you really believe if if you are what you say you profess, you are how do you see some of that dissonance?

Andre?

>> That distance is troubling, but I think it speaks to the core of what we are talking about here today.

and I think that that tensions in the black relationship and that proximity to whiteness, you spoke about reflects in comparative trauma.

and understanding that that trauma is not a competition that I can see anti-Semitism, just as they can see racism.

as a Christian, we are obligated to actually understand the Jewish faith because according to our history, that social justice that Jesus spoke about is the core of Judaism.

so if we do not understand the Jewish faith as Christians and that relationship to our own faith building then we have missed the whole point of being Christians.

So speaking to the hypocrisy of what we are commanded to do by the obligations of our faith speaking to the lived experience of how we relate to each other, that's where a lot of the problem set, because we are hypocrites.

And that's just part of being human.

humans.

And we have to identify that, have to call each other out on that and then move to a point of reconciliation and compassion so that we can grow from our own hypocrisy.

>> I'm with you there.

But the one of the things I see in politics all the time that drives me crazy is I think it is humble and correct to say that no human being, if you believe in God, you're not God.

You're human for a reason.

You're flawed and that's okay.

There's nobody without sin in the eyes of God.

But at the same time, it's not like a get out of doing the hard work free pass to be like, well, you know, we're humans.

Humans are hypocrites.

So I mean, aren't you?

You're supposed to keep striving, aren't you?

>> There's an old story that that I learned when I was a kid.

And and it's and it comes from the Irish tradition where that if you have a disagreement with the neighbor, you take a chair, you sit outside their house and you stay there in silence until they come and speak to you.

So I think that, yes, we're hypocrites and it's not to get out of free card, but we have to do the hard work of going into the synagogue, them coming into the church, me going, sitting at your dinner table.

them one of my friends, Michael Hagerman we were born on the same day and we have been friends for over 40 years, mainly because of the relationship of me singing in the choir, meeting him, meeting him there, and then later working in the financial services business.

We use the service and have used the service over 40 years as part of our friendship, as part of sharing each other and coming together.

and we've done that yearly we've done the hard work of looking at our differences, looking at the things we disagree with, and having a conversation, loving conversation, sometimes heated.

But that's what it takes.

And it takes that hard work to really build those bonds.

It's not we're not a monolith.

There's no Jewish community thought or black community thought.

Every every block is built by me sitting down and talking to the rabbi.

We were both trombonists.

So, you know, even having the opportunity to play together, it's how we play together, how we figure out the timing, how we figure out the harmony and the disharmony in our relationship.

And that's where it comes from.

>> I really do appreciate the point to that.

No group is a monolith, and sometimes hand up some in the media, you know, Rabbi Stein's got to speak for all the Jews today, and that's just not fair.

You know, Reverend Harvey's got to speak for black America.

That's not fair.

So it's a good call to remember that there is obviously diversity of thought.

And there are difference of experience.

Go ahead.

I know you.

>> Well, the reason I raised the whole issue around race, because we really need to think about it.

I have a couple of stories, but I'll make sure I share it.

Growing up, even though I grew up in the segregation, the individuals who were close to my mother were Jewish women, and so I learned from those experiences.

that really opened your eyes and understand relationships.

When I came here to Rochester young Jewish men really took us under his wing and really fulfilled his mission in terms of his own experience.

So I had very positive experiences such that I was called to work at Baden Street Settlement, which two founding women Theresa Katz and Carson.

And I've been with for over 30 years because they had the mission to help our communities, their communities.

And so we've continued over the years to institute the immigrant population that they came to America with them.

I like to tell a story quickly to say to you that I'm also Catholic.

I apologize and I have my degrees and couldn't preach at the Catholic Church.

but it was that young man that's sitting across from me.

Rabbi Steinhardt invited me to preach at the temple.

That's the only time I've been able to preach in a faith community.

>> Wow.

>> And I think it's.

And I use that because it's an example.

We talk about individual commitment, but he has that level of commitment.

And I think we work together in terms of a number of committees.

But that's extremely important.

And it's individuals like you guys are sitting around the table.

My concern is that our cemeteries are still segregated.

If you walk into the cemetery here in Rochester, you see a level of Hispanic level of black and white.

We're all segregated in death.

And I think that's the challenge I have.

I believe it's our faith communities that could change this whole dynamic.

not just one by one.

I'm.

I want a little bit more dramatic drama.

Sorry about that, but I don't want to leave this earth as my husband did.

Still being angry at the TV because we are angry about the racism that's going on in our society.

There are people who are leaving this earth segregated, and it's wrong.

It's just wrong.

And I think the individual's commitments that are sitting around the table have the power and the ability to change and move our communities, faith communities are otherwise.

But we've got to do something very different.

And so that's my challenge to all of us today.

to really do something like Rabbi Stein did for me.

>> When was that, by the way?

>> I knew you were going to ask that.

>> Now, you expect us to remember?

>> Well, she's calling you a young man, which is a nice thing.

And you are a young man.

>> And it was.

We were young.

I was just recently, you know, I can remember.

I have tears in my eyes, him calling me up and introducing.

That's a miracle.

That is a miracle.

How many people have done that?

And he's been the only one that I'm aware of that has done that.

How many people are going to step out of our traditional things?

And he did in the temple.

I mean, temple was full, wasn't it, Rabbi?

>> It sure was.

>> What do you remember about that, Rabbi?

>> It was.

And thank you, Gay.

Now and every time I'm with gay now, I always have a special feeling from the from what we share.

so gay now talks about Teresa and Fannie, these two members of the temple sisterhood who worked to create Baden Street.

And it's so important that we say their names that we remember them.

There's there are plaques in the hallway of Baden Street that, that that mention them.

But to me, I don't want us to stop mentioning Teresa and Fannie.

I want to talk about gay now and the work that she's done.

I want to talk about the work that is happening there today.

The kids who are walking into that center every single day with such critical, critical need.

And what are we doing about it?

They're they're our brothers.

They're our sisters.

They're they're the ones that we need to be speaking about.

They're the ones that we need to be stepping up for.

And what I'm conscious of is that when Teresa and Fannie helped create Baden Street 100 plus years ago, they were working in their neighborhood, right?

Baden Street and Joseph Avenue.

And the other parts of that neighborhood.

The challenge we have now is that we're living sort of in separate ways or segregated ways.

And so we need to build those relationships, like talking about the friendship that you have with with Michael, it's a personal, deep individual relationship.

The meals that Ricky and I have shared through the years, the the family losses that we have, that we have shared through the years the first preaching I did after my father died and I went through the initial period of mourning, was the pulpit exchange with Mount Olivet.

So my father died at the end of December, eight years ago.

After that initial period, the first time that I stepped into the pulpit, the first time that I preached was out at Mount Olivet.

So just speaking in a personal way it's building those Connections where we really get to know each other.

we can talk about trombones all day long.

That's a piece of it as well.

It's really getting to know each other personally and meaningful and in deep ways.

And then from that, we can say, all right, what are we going to do about it?

What are we going to do next?

>> Baden Street services over 12,000 people.

These are not the same people that were there last year.

And that's the difference.

I may not live in that community, but I do live there because that's how I spend my time.

And the people who are working at Baden Street all live in that community.

And so, you know, I do a little plug here.

Our bricks are falling down.

So we we had to raise $8 million for one community.

We've got to raise for another.

And we've had challenges with that because I'm not sure why people can't see the individuals who are in need, and they need a beautiful building.

we've done that with some of the things that we've done modestly, but it is the churches and the people in the community that are going to rally and make a difference.

our divert for a minute and say, when I see the demonstrators out there demonstrating, it gives me hope.

It gives me hope that people are I mean, they're paying attention to what's going on in the world.

And I think Baden Street is the key to the situations that individuals are dealing.

I met with a lady in the parking lot.

She needed some.

She needed $2.50 to get the bus.

I never carry any money.

So I went to my purse and I gave it to her, and she came in and thanked me for $2.50 to get the bus.

If you need anything else, go over to this building.

See so and so and we will help you.

There's so many people with just a modest needs that we are not paying attention to, but Main Street is.

And the staff who live in the community, who are serving this community are, and I think that's the difference.

>>, really, for people on this panel today, for people with remarkable testimony on walking the walk.

and modeling what some of what you're going to start to see tomorrow night, it's the start of a four part docu series on PBS.

It's called Black and Jewish America An Interwoven History 9:00 tomorrow night on PBS.

Or you can check out PBS.org, the PBS app.

It's going to run for four consecutive Tuesdays through the 24th of February.

After we take this only break, I want to ask our guests.

They've all talked about how their own faith communities have been key to not only them personally, but their congregations to experience these sort of outreach to to find connection with other cultures and solidarity.

But fewer people are, you know, not not everywhere I know, but fewer people, especially young people, will tell you that they're going to up they're going to go to church or they go to synagogue.

And it's hard it's hard to get people to feel connected.

I'm worried that everything the modern sort of conveniences of life are going to make us only more siloed away from each other and more suspicious of each other.

And I want to ask our guests what we do about that.

So we'll take a short break.

We'll come right back on Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Tuesday on the next Connections.

We've heard a lot about Greenland in the past year, probably more than any other year.

In most of our lifetimes.

But most Americans have never been to Greenland.

On Tuesday, we meet some people who have from our area.

The time they spent there, the people they met, the culture they observed, some of the stereotypes that were blown up by their experience and what they want all of us to know.

We'll talk about it Tuesday.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola, center, proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson.

Believing an informed and engaged community is a connected one.

Mary Cariola and Excellus BlueCross BlueShield, working with members to find health coverage for every stage of life.

Helping to make care and coverage more accessible in more ways for more people across the Rochester community.

Details online at excellus.

>> When we started this conversation, talking about the relationship over time of Jewish Americans, Black Americans, where they find solidarity, where there has been, you know, occasionally challenge, all of our guests told me before the program that we really should talk about the history.

And they've been doing that.

They've been talking about a really compelling local history, a 40 year, a 40 year relationship between Temple B'rith Kodesh and Mount Olivet, a 100 year relationship, you know, that goes back with Baden Street more than 100 years now.

But if you look at the future, people feel less connected.

Young people are having all kinds of problems feeling connected to their worlds.

and, you know, Australia just tried to ban social media for people under 16.

We'll see how that goes.

Other states are looking at it, but how do you get people to show up in the pews saying, yeah, not only am I going to come on Sunday, but, you know, let's go on Saturday, let's go.

Let's go meet the rabbi.

Let's go meet.

Let's go have dinner.

How do you find a way to convince people, especially young people, but all people, Reverend, to show up when they've got a million other things that can distract them.

Are you worried about that?

>> I am, first of all, I want to say thank you to you, Edmund, for bringing us together and giving us an opportunity to share with the community the thoughts that we are having today.

>> I'm grateful that you're here.

>> It's very difficult now to get people into the church and into the temple.

The synagogue the signs of the time, the signs of the time.

And I think now we have to be more appointed.

we have to be more intentional in the services that we provide.

We have to show young people want to see what you're doing and not necessarily what you're saying.

They want your talk to match.

They want your walk to match, your talk.

And so I don't think I think as we move forward, we just can't get into the church and shout now because young people are looking for more.

They see it on in the game.

The younger they are, the more exposed they are to social media.

They see so much going on there.

And I think and we're making attempts to do it, but I think we have a long ways to go in order to find.

Rabbi mentioned.

Peter mentioned the idea of listening.

We do all as leaders.

We are we love to talk and listening becomes hard for us, but I think we've got to listen to the young people.

We've got to make some changes.

the, the culture, the traditions that they see in our buildings.

It's not attractive.

Now, what attracted grandma and my mother, who just passed at the age of 95?

What attract her?

The clothes, the stipulations that we put on them.

You got to dress a certain way.

And none of us say that.

You have to dress a certain way.

Sure, but the way we dress.

Yeah, suggests that you need to dress like us.

You need to act like us.

I had a situation happened last Wednesday night when the drummer was playing the drums.

A young man was playing the drums with his hat on, and an older person asked him to take his hat off, and he texted me to say, what's wrong with my hat?

And I really had to think about that.

What's what's wrong with a hat?

I know what my mom would say.

>> I know what my mother.

>> Would say.

I know what my mom would say is wrong with the hat in the church.

It was.

It's not a question we would have asked, but today they want to know what's wrong with me coming as I am and when they don't feel comfortable coming as they are, they don't come.

>> No, that's that's I mean, I can remember my mother saying, you're not going to get served dinner until the hat's off your head.

>> Oh, absolutely.

>> You know, and and I understand younger people wanting to come as they are and not have sort of the cultural norms of past generations.

I'm also worried about losing some of what makes something special.

respected.

Revered.

So, I mean, can you blend the two?

How do you do?

>> We got to have a balance there.

We don't want to lose the old worship.

We don't want to lose the God factor.

I think we got to have a balance where we don't lose the God factor.

But I think the truth of the matter is, a lot of what we have stuck out swords in the sand on are not really the God factors.

It's the things that we personally like.

And I don't think the God factor is unattractive.

I think it's all of our isms and the rituals that we have.

Embrace that turns this new generation off.

I think everybody well, I think we all love God and we find a need for God.

And what I'm hearing is more and more is I don't have to come to church to serve God.

Yeah, that's what I'm hearing.

And I invite people and I've challenged our church to bring three people with you each Sunday, bring each three people with you each Sunday.

And I can't tell you, but only one person and that person is a 16 year old kid who was able to find three people to come to church, had the strength or the wherewithal or even the desire to go out and get three people to come to church with them.

So we got to have a balance because we got to keep God.

We believe that without God, you can't survive.

So we got to keep God there.

But I think we got to look at the isms that we're doing in church that actually have nothing to do with God.

>> So the drummer kept his hat on.

>> Drummer kept his hat.

>> On, you know, as a principal in The Teacher, I want to say I love your hat.

maybe you can bring a couple more people with hats on.

Yeah, I think sometimes we lose our humor.

Yeah, yeah.

And and so as a teacher and a principal former principal, you know some came in their pajamas.

Well.

>> Yeah, that's another trend.

>> Yes.

And we just have.

We have to learn to accept people the way they are, the way they come to us.

Now, I'll tell them.

I'll talk to God about it, but that's okay.

You know, just use a little humor.

>> You gotta tell them.

No pajamas.

Don't.

We gotta draw a line somewhere.

>> Well, some of the pajamas are really kind of nice, though.

>> But I want to say this to young people.

Love structure, right?

That's one of the things I teach.

Also.

>> They don't know that sometimes.

>> They don't.

know that, but they love structure.

I teach also, and there are almost no rules.

>> Right?

>> in the school system now, I don't know how it was there.

There were rules for us, and I still practice the rules in my class.

Boys can't wear hats in my class.

They cannot wear hoodies on their their heads.

They cannot wear shades.

I see it happening in all of the other classes, but I spend the first week establishing the order of the house.

You cannot get notebook paper from the teacher.

You don't get pencils from the teacher.

You come here with pencil, paper, no hat, no.

Those things that I talked about, there's no problem there.

And these same kids, when they come in, I see hoodies coming off their head.

So it's structure.

I think young people love structure, but when it comes to church, it's the approach more than the actual structure, because I spoke to that young man and I compromised him out of the hat by saying, I don't wear hats either.

My mother would have a fit if I had a hat on.

Yeah.

And I said to him in the text, and I believe your mother would have a fit.

And he said she would.

I said, honor your mother.

And he took his hat off.

>> Right.

>> So the approach.

>> Is so and how we speak to them.

>> How we speak to people.

>> Absolutely.

No question.

>> And in the temple and I'm done in the church and the temple.

You don't get second chances all the time, sometimes more often than not, you only get one chance to either win that person or lose that person.

And I think what's happening in the church is we're losing them, right?

We're losing them on that first opportunity.

>> Don't think of having this is a posed question.

Church in a cafeteria or in the school itself.

Instead of having them come to another building, we go to them.

and going door to door to deliver food.

Yeah.

You know, to kind of meet the neighbors.

Just just offering some different insights in terms of how we approach things.

And then that brings people in.

>> Well, I tell you what, if we if we don't do it differently, church, temple, we're going to shut down.

>> Yeah.

>> Because we have the same people showing up every Sunday.

Right.

Say in in worship times and the same people are getting older and the same people are dying.

And if we don't do something different, we're going to end up shutting down.

>> I agree.

and I agree with that.

But and I think the challenge for faith leaders is that I think young people are looking for something different.

So I think that we as leaders have an obligation to make sure that if we say that we're about housing the unhoused, are we doing work to help house the unhoused?

Do we each have a commitment to feed the hungry?

Do we have a are we doing the work and pulling people in that will clothe people?

So it's not really about the structured worship.

I think it's the hypocrisy comes from what are we doing, the work that we're claiming that we are about.

And I think that once you start doing the work, pulling people in to do X, Y and Z, feed, clothe, take care of the sick.

Are we visiting all of our I mean, physically visiting our shut ins and our elderly?

Are we doing that work?

And if we do that work, I think that young people who are about showing, doing, walking the walk, not just saying, do what some esoteric being says you should do.

I think that if we live that every day, we do that every day, then we build a greater faith community and we get a chance to talk to each other across from a theological or theoretical perspective, because we see that the work that we do from that internal theology is about the other and not about ourselves.

And I think our religion is too much about ourselves and our traditions versus how do our traditions transform the world and transform our community?

And how does it play out in each of our lives?

>> No, it's an interesting it's a really interesting point.

I wondered, Rabbi Stein was on this program not that long ago, kind of talking about a related subject, you know, losing people, losing, convincing the next generation to show up.

Part of what, Andre, part of what everybody's saying, Rabbi, is, if you're not perceived as actually living your values, then the next generation is going to see you as hypocritical and they're not going to show up.

Do you feel more challenged by than maybe you used to?

Is it more discussion on justice and values and people want to see kind of walking the walk?

>> Absolutely.

So I'm not sure if it's if it's more challenged or not, but I think that the challenge we face, whether it's as faith leaders or as people of faith, regardless of their role, is how do we define what it means to be a person of faith?

And is it about worship?

Is it about music?

Is it about learning?

Or is it saying that as a person of faith, we're in the pursuit of justice?

We're working to create opportunity and dignity and freedom and peace, because those are the kinds of things, whether it's for someone who's young or someone who's not quite as young.

I think it's a question of some people really enjoy and get a lot out of the experience of sitting in the pews and the old fashioned way and singing hymns and listening to preaching and so on.

But to me, it's really a matter of what happens outside of those sort of boxes or outside of of those windows.

There's an ancient Jewish teaching about the construction of the synagogue that talks about the different things you need to construct a synagogue.

And one of the primary pieces, it says you need to have windows and you need to have windows because it says, what happens inside the house of worship doesn't matter as much as what's happening outside the house of worship.

You can't come in and hide away.

You have to be able to see it.

You have to be able to feel it, and you have to be able to take action.

As a result, there was a church I was at once, and when you're driving out of the parking lot, so leaving the church, a sign up that says your ministry begins here.

So when we talk about the challenges for young people, and I would say it's not limited to young people because it's a it's a discretionary activity for everybody, regardless.

It's are we living our values?

Are we doing things that are really, truly having an impact?

Are we reaching our potential in responding to the needs in our community?

>> We've covered a lot of ground, and I'm going to ask the Reverend Dr.

Rickey B. Harvey Sr.

senior to kind of take us home just with one thought here, when you watch tomorrow night at 9 p.m.

on PBS Black and Jewish America An Interwoven History, you will see conversation about how, despite the challenges, at times Jewish Americans and Black Americans often return to the idea that we are only safe when everyone is safe.

Do you agree with that idea?

>> I agree with that idea that we are all human.

We are people, and there should not be.

We should not have to defend our humanity.

And so yes, I think we are all one.

And when one hurts, we all hurt.

So I think that's where the unity piece come in.

By bringing us together and realizing your pain is my pain.

>> The man next to him, Rabbi Stein, they've been working together for a long time.

We are only safe when everyone is safe.

What does that mean to you?

>> It means that we have to be looking out for each other.

We have to not just look at our own needs and our own reality, but we have to be eyes wide open to what's going on around us.

>> Well, thank you all for making the time for being here again.

The new four part docuseries Black and Jewish America An Interwoven History, premieres tomorrow at 9:00.

You can see it on PBS live, but also on PBS.org, the PBS app.

It's going to run for four consecutive Tuesdays through February.

The executive producer, host and writer Dr.

Henry Louis Gates Jr., is going to be part of that.

So I want to thank our guests for being in the studio with us this hour.

The Reverend Dr.

Rickey B. Harvey Sr., senior pastor at Mount Olivet Baptist Church.

Maybe don't wear a hat, but you can have a conversation if you do.

He just wants to see you show up.

Great to see you.

Thank you for being here.

Reverend.

And his colleague next to him is Rabbi Peter Stein.

Senior Rabbi Temple B'rith Kodesh.

Thank you for being here.

Rabbi.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Evan Gaynelle Wethers.

Come back anytime and tell your stories.

I love talking to you.

Director of Education at Baden Street Settlement.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for inviting.

>> Me and Colonel Evans.

Great to see you again.

I did not know you were a trombone player.

>> Yeah.

>> A good one.

>> I know.

>> And in the choir.

>> I used to.

I don't sing anymore, but.

>> Yeah, multi-talented person.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you from all of us at Connections.

Thanks for watching.

Thanks for listening.

Whatever platform you're finding us on.

Thank you.

We are back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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