From Sky news this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in September when Pen America sent a notice to American libraries.

The directors of Pen had been reading about project 2025 and they sent the following quote.

Project 2025 is upfront about its intent to equate Lgbtq+ content in children's books and in school curricula with pornography, and to treat making such content accessible as a crime.

Pen America has repeatedly warned that this type of rhetoric directly facilitates book bans, many of which target books with Lgbtq+ characters or that tell LGBTQ plus stories.

End quote.

Penn then quoted the foreword to Heritage Foundation president Kevin Roberts book.

It reads, quote, pornography manifested today in the omnipresent propagation of transgender ideology and sexualization of children has no claim to First Amendment protection.

Pornography should be outlawed.

Educators and public librarians who purvey it should be classed as registered sex offenders.

End quote.

The Washington Post reports that 17 states have drafted legislation aimed at public libraries.

Three states have passed laws that could lead to criminal penalties for librarians.

One librarian told Pen America, quote, I have been called a porn peddler in an open meeting and a person on Facebook has said I should be stoned to death.

End quote.

Now, conservatives point to one of the most powerful ads in the recent presidential campaign.

President Trump's ads warning about the spread of gender ideology.

The popularity of the ad is evidence they believe.

For more aggressive book banning on the subject, all of which brings us to our conversation today.

After 44 years and 16 as director in the Rochester Public Library and the Monroe County Public Library System, Patty Taro is retiring.

And she has seen a great deal in her career.

This hour, we're welcoming both Patty and her successor and their colleagues as we talk about the future of libraries not just book bans, but the role of libraries in public life.

And it's great to have Patricia Taro back here, retiring director of the libraries in Rochester in the Monroe County system.

Welcome back.

It's nice to see you here.

Thanks, Ivan.

It's great to be here.

And the successor is Emily Clapper, the incoming director.

It's great to have.

Emily.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much.

Adrian Petronella is the director of the Henrietta Public Library.

Thank you for being here.

Oh, it's a pleasure.

And Emily has the lunch is back with us.

Vice president of the board of trustees for the Monroe County Public Library System.

The owner and founder of Serve Me This Guy digital.

And an adjunct professor of English and communication at Nazareth.

I was going to say university.

University, the university.

Welcome back.

Thank you, thank you.

A lot of different directions to take this this hour.

And it's not just about book bans or I mean, even the word ban.

I've got listeners already debating.

So let me just start there.

Patty, how's it going?

I mean, 44 years, you feel like you're you feel like you're on the court at the right time?

Yeah, I do.

you know, I've had 16 years as a director for Rochester Public Library, Monroe County Library System, and we've seen a lot in in those years.

we're, you know, you're talking about book bans.

We've seen some things happen in Monroe County.

many things that have not been publicized.

we have Adrian with us today who personally experienced one of our ugliest challenges to a book in the last few years.

there, you know, there are people out there now who say this is a hoax, that it's not really happening.

that books aren't being banned, that you can get everything off Amazon.

Well, public libraries from the beginning have existed because not everybody can go out and buy a book.

Right.

So it could something can be available on Amazon, but if you can afford to buy it, you don't have access to it.

That's why libraries still exist.

One of the reasons, and I'm going to ask Adrian to tell us a little bit of that story, if you could, as I do, that listeners, whether you've got questions about book bans, I'm curious to know how much listeners are using their library.

I hope a lot.

and a lot of different ways, and or thoughts about the future of where libraries go.

We'd love to hear from you this hour.

You can call the program.

It's toll free.

844295 talk.

It's 8442958255263 WXXI if you're in Rochester.

2639994.

My son always tells me nobody makes phone calls anymore.

Well, okay.

But connections listeners do.

You certainly can, but you can get in touch with us other ways too.

You can email the program connections at I talk.

And if you're watching on the news YouTube channel.

Hello.

You can join the chat there on the YouTube page there.

So, let me ask Adrian Petrelli, director of the Henrietta Public Library.

Patty called it one of the ugliest challenges to a book that we've seen.

When was this?

So it's 3 or 4 years ago now.

and we had a book called Making a Baby.

That we still have it.

it's a book for small children on making a baby, and it is on the informative side of the spectrum, for sure.

You know, any library is going to have a whole range of books on a topic like that so parents can find what fits best for their families.

So a parent had an objection.

They came up to the desk and we have a procedure for a library still, where folks fill out a form and we form a committee.

And so she was informed of that and given the form, but instead of going that route, she went to Facebook and, complained about the book, had selected photos.

And then this went kind of mildly viral.

And there were people from all over the region chiming in.

Really terrible things said about me, about my children's librarian, about our board.

somebody posted a picture of one of our board members with a derogatory comment based on her race.

so it got really ugly really quickly.

And then, on a actually Saturday morning, I'll never forget, I checked my email because this was all was brewing and, man who didn't use my library, who I'd never met before, I had emailed the sheriff calling me, asking for us and particularly me to be, investigated for distributing pornography in the form of this picture book, which I believe he also had never seen.

So that was really stressful, to say the least.

I called Patty immediately because I was like, what even happens?

Does the sheriff come to my house?

I am the most law abiding citizen you ever wanted to see, as I think most librarians are.

We're we like rules.

we follow them.

I want to meet, like, a whole panel of the scofflaw librarians.

I have a whole separate show.

You know, be hard to fill.

A panel will waive a fine or something, you know, but we aren't really into.

That's very interesting.

Illegal materials, you know?

So, it it all turned out fine, but while it was happening, it was so upsetting.

And, honestly, my children's, the head of youth services still gets upset talking about it because, of course, you know, people making allegations like that publicly that can ruin your career, whether it's true or not.

and also, we do have the community's best interest at heart.

That's why we're doing this.

And, you know, we never would say, like, family.

You have to read this book.

That's not what we do.

We try to match the family with the book that's right for them.

acknowledging that not every book is right for every family.

So a couple points here, Adrian.

First of all, did you literally meet with anyone from the sheriff's department in that incident?

They called me eventually, to inquire about what the procedures actually are for when a book is challenged, because they had received a number of these kind of calls and things, and they're like, this isn't what we do.

What what are people supposed to do?

We want to refer them correctly.

And so we had a couple conversations about that, okay.

And in a typical situation when someone does lodge a complaint and I'm not saying post what they post publicly about you in this case, but just comes to the front desk and says, I don't think you should have this book.

I don't think it's age appropriate.

I don't feel comfortable.

What what is your procedure then?

So we actually just did this, the book genderqueer, we had a few weeks ago, a patron filled out what we call a request for a reconsideration form.

And so she filled it out.

I got it, I reached right out to her.

I said, oh, we got it.

We're going to form a committee.

That's our procedure.

Three people.

So that'll be the book buyer and two other people on staff to look and see if our collection development procedures.

We have policies and procedures around how we purchase books where they followed.

Is this in the correct place?

So we kind of do a reanalysis of the purchase.

And then that committee will make a report.

It goes to me.

They did.

They decided to keep the book, for various reasons.

and so I shared that with the patron, who was delightful, actually not mad, not calling anybody names, just asking an honest question, which is fantastic.

And and I gave her an answer and actually I was emailing whether this morning, you know, she's just trying to find she's got a 12 year old who's a precocious reader and going into the teen section.

And so how is she managing this?

And, you know, so we had some conversation about it.

We talked a little bit about how the library arranges things.

It's been a great conversation.

That's like ideal scenario.

Okay.

So before we get to how 2025 is sort of playing out in libraries and where this may go next, I do want to then kind of take what Adrian is describing, which, you know, genderqueer is one of the most challenges challenged books in the country in the last several years, along with a, you know, there's a short and then a longer list that you can easily find.

I'm sure a lot of the challenges are on books in the theme of gender, education and ideology, LGBTQ plus themes.

And so what you typically have not always, but you often have people are more culturally conservative, challenging books that are making them uncomfortable.

And I could I could foresee, given sort of the cultural ascendancy of conservatism of the moment, which is not a monolith.

I understand.

but in this moment, if Kevin Roberts and people who agree with him are ascendant, you could see young adult books, children's books that are like gender queer, which are both text and illustration, but aim to say there are, as the president said in his inaugural address, there are only two genders and people who are teaching you about, a spectrum of gender are wrong.

And and is that the kind of book that libraries would carry?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I have to say, my career, I've been a librarian 27 years, and this has always been the flashpoint topic of of challenges, in my experience.

Certainly.

race issues also.

So, and if you combine the two of it's intersectional, that is definitely, race and sexuality.

Yes.

for challenges, you know, I, I read the executive order, about, the, about gender, when it came out, you know, and it's troubling that at the federal level now, you know, trans folks, non-binary folks, the federal government's not recognizing them anymore.

And how does that translate to the state to library collections?

I anticipate a lot of, I don't know, animosity around that conversation.

I don't know what you want to share, and that's why we're about to talk about it, but but part of what I'm trying to establish, and I think you answered it, Adrienne, is there's a lot of complaints about books like Gender Queer, right?

Yes.

And this executive order, combined with where this administration wants to go, could seek to really aggressively, yes, get those books out of libraries.

I think what you're saying is don't take those books out of libraries.

Don't ban them from the shelves.

Just as we would not block a similar book that says, no, there's only two genders, you know, male and female.

If those books are on the shelves, they're on the shelves, too.

You wouldn't seek to block those either?

No, I mean, obviously we have just a whole range of things.

And the only way that people are going to be able to be having informed conversations about this issue is if they do have access to materials that explain the viewpoint.

Okay.

So, Evan, can I chime in with.

Yes.

Addition?

Absolutely.

I just wanted to add with Adrian talking about the Facebook comments that were so vile and toxic with her book challenge.

I think social media is a huge piece with these book challenges is that people take things out of context, especially when it's a graphic novel or graphic memoir.

Like genderqueer, people will take a picture of a single page and it gets circulated so widely without the context of the entire story.

And I make a lot of content for TikTok myself.

I made a TikTok about genderqueer that went mildly viral, and people all knew one page of the book that had been circulated by a specific group saying, this is pornography.

Look at this one page.

But they don't have the context of the entire story to understand what it's sharing about one individual's lived experience.

I think that makes the problem so much worse.

So I want to endorse the idea that we should always read the article, read the book, read the material before complaining about it.

That's always a good thing.

I think that's that's fair.

There may be people who say, no, I read the whole book.

I still don't like it.

But you're saying that's a different deal?

Then I saw something on social.

Now I want to go protest.

Right.

Okay.

well, that's the the flavor of the moment.

And Patty, you know, so when Adrian calls you and says, you know, how do you like what's going to happen here?

What do we do about this?

Have you had challenges that are similar?

I mean, have you have you seen that increase over time?

We've not seen any challenges in Rochester libraries, which I think is really kind of interesting.

Right.

Monroe County, every challenge that we've seen over the last few years has been in a suburban library, and I think nearly maybe every one of them that I'm aware of revolves around sexuality.

but as Adrian pointed out, this has been a flashpoint for years.

You know, when I was at the Ogden Library and Spencer Port 20 years ago, people were taking sex for dummies and throwing that book up on top of the shelves, shelf, and the racks so other people couldn't find it.

you know, it's sexuality has been a trigger point for challenges and for discomfort among our users for years.

one of the the standards that I use, there's the the standard approaches that I use when talking with people about being unhappy about something that's in a library, particularly when this is a parent who is clearly showing concern for what their child is able to access, and a library that parent has every right to choose and work with their child around what they read, but they do not have the right to make that choice for other people's children.

That's what it comes down to.

All right, so, Emily, class, but you still want this job.

Absolutely, absolutely.

I'm always saying, you know, I'm, I'm a fighter, not a lover.

So let's go on this one.

yeah.

And this is a space that is I've been working with on a national level for, for a number of years.

we are so, so fortunate here in Rochester, in Monroe County, in New York State, honestly, that we have, a climate where these kind of challenges, when they come up very often can be a good conversation and be, something where we are supported and, you we can actually have something fruitful come out of the conversation very often.

That is not the case across the country.

I know so many, areas across the country where really good people who are so passionate as librarians are about serving their community, are being driven out of the profession.

And, because there are things like you mentioned, efforts to criminalize, professionals for doing their job.

And, so if that happens to come up a little bit more around here, I think we're ready for it because we have a community behind us here that will step up and show up for for our rights.

Emily, as you know, The Washington Post is cataloging different legislation in different states.

So there's, you know, upwards of two dozen.

There's at least 17, maybe more states that are considering legislation or push or have pending legislation about what libraries, public libraries, what books they can and can't have and then what the penalties would be.

And then three different states already, seem to have criminal penalties in place for librarians.

So when your colleague, when Adrian talks about having this nervous moment where you go like, like someone from the sheriff's department come into my house because somebody posted on social that, you know, I'm doing XYZ.

do you see a future where that actually does happen, where the cops do show up at either a librarians place of work or house because of these allegations?

I mean, is that happening?

Do you think that could happen?

I think that could happen in certain areas of the country.

I am very hopeful that that's not something that we're going to face here, at least not to that degree.

But I mean, it's a non-zero chance, as they say.

I think that I think I wouldn't be I would be surprised, but not shocked if that were to start happening.

especially in other areas of the country.

and can I just ask all of you there's a couple of things that stand out when I look at this book ban list like and this there's, there's different lists out there, but a lot of them have the same kind of titles or authors.

and I'm sure you're familiar with all and we've talked about gender queer, the book 13 Reasons Why, which became, a streaming show, I think probably has been challenged for reasons of concerns about suicide ideations.

Okay.

I couldn't be looking for Alaska by John Green.

See what John?

John Green looking for Alaska.

The children act very independently.

That's the objection.

I think they smoke, too.

And it the children act independently.

Yes.

That is a common complaint is a lack of respect for authority.

You will see that.

Yeah.

The the very first challenge that I ever experienced when I was a director at the Ogden Library was over a Berenstain Bears book where Brother Bear went bad and wore a leather jacket and smoked cigarets.

I think a lot of times what you see, especially with those teen kind of, titles, is people are objecting to the depiction of teenagers acting like teenagers, and I don't I don't know where they're coming from.

I have teenagers myself.

There's they do these things.

And for me, as a parent, I am very happy that they can read about things that they can relate with.

And then I, as a parent, can talk to them about it.

Well, that's an important point for a second.

I just want to make sure I understand the parents the embarrassment.

Betty, there's no way I've read a lot of berenstein bears.

My guess is by the end of that short book, Brother Bear was like, I shouldn't smoke that cigaret.

Sorry.

Absolutely right.

He was probably like, oh, sorry, I love your mom and dad.

Sorry about this.

So it's like, even if you don't like the image of him in a leather jacket smoking a cigaret, you know, hanging out with John Travolta and, and, I guess by the end of the book, he's reformed, and that wasn't even good enough.

Now, you know, and even though, you know, I'm talking about this in a, an amusing way, I think, the parent who was objecting to it was very sincere, over the complaint, and it was an opportunity to talk with them and read through the book.

And yes, at the end, Brother Bear is reformed, and he goes back to being the lovable bear that he is.

but the, you know, it was an opportunity to talk to that parent about why they were so upset about it.

Okay.

And you're I appreciate Patty's point here.

I'm like, I'm finding this hard.

Of all the book ban stuff, brother Barron a smoking a cigaret and then apologizing for it was not on the list of things I thought we were going to talk about.

But I'm trying to understand, I mean, to to MLA class.

First point here.

You want your teenagers relating to the world.

You and you think literature is a way to maybe feel a place.

Absolutely.

And think through challenges and think in different ways, or at least feel related to I don't know what people are thinking is going to happen when you see Brother Bear where like like I is your seven year old going to bust out the leather jacket, a cigaret I don't like everything is suggestible, so therefore I don't understand what the complaint is.

Yeah, I don't understand that.

Honestly either.

as a parent, I see those those kind of things as an opportunity.

And I think it's wonderful that, teenagers can see themselves in there as if they, their experience is.

And children and everyone can see themselves in the, the kind of, materials that they have access to free of charge, that is available for everybody.

I think that's wonderful.

It's a great opportunity to have conversations and understand the world better, which I think everybody could use a little bit more of, like, here's a here's a note from a teacher we just got listening right now.

Yes.

Oh my God.

I have to tell you about the most recent letter in my file for encouraging students to question authority.

Literally not joking.

Parents upset that a teacher in high school was telling kids there are times where questioning authority is valuable.

That's the job of a teenager, I think.

Or of young people especially.

I mean, all of us have a responsibility to do that at times.

But I think that's actually what we have young people for more or less.

Isn't Holden Caulfield challenge authority?

A lot?

Yeah.

And that that's that's on us.

That's on the air.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course it is.

All right.

I should have known.

That's on the list.

the looking for Alaska.

So that explains the John Green book.

Looking for Alaska.

Kids are too independent.

Okay, not on my bingo card.

James Baldwin books on the list quite often.

you know, books about race, probably, as you mentioned, Adrian, that's, flash point, but, so let let me read the note that I got before the program for Charles, who said, even if I go on gun broker.com right now, there will be a bunch of listings that will say in big letters, this seller does not sell to New York.

If I go on Amazon.com right now, there will be no books that I am prevented from buying, no matter where I'm located in the country.

One of these scenarios is a ban, the other is not.

Okay, so you're saying the real ban is guns?

Books are not being banned.

We're being hysterical.

It's interesting.

I you know, I think they're very different issues.

I can't speak to gun sales.

Like that is not my area of expertise.

But I think that a major difference here is that books are very central to how you learn, how you grow, and you kids need to learn how to read, how to pass out information, having free access as opposed to paid access is very important.

I mean, we have public schools, you know, compulsory education.

This is part of our, our, ethos as, as Americans that we provide these things, guns are it just I don't I that feels like a very different category to me.

Okay.

And I think Patty addressed this earlier.

Charles, I appreciate the email.

Charles is not wrong.

It's a whole separate conversation, but there are plenty of guns that are banned in New York State that may not be banned elsewhere.

New York is a more restrictive state when it comes to firearms.

That is definitely true.

Patty's point earlier was just because you can get online and buy a book on Amazon if you if it is banned in your library, then it is.

That is a ban because their libraries are supposed to be a public square for the people.

Doesn't matter.

Your income doesn't matter.

If you can afford to get on Amazon, doesn't matter if you have a credit card or not.

That's for everybody.

So you're saying that doesn't prove that this is therefore not a ban?

It it does not, you know, what do you need to order something on Amazon.

You need a credit card or some form of online payment.

Not everyone is privileged enough to have that.

particularly young people.

So before we turn to some other subjects here and listeners, I've got a pile of your emails, I promise I will get to them after our only break.

I do want to ask our guests if, with everything that's happened in recent years, if the last three months, because elections do have consequences, we have, you know, Kevin Roberts of the Heritage Foundation is very tight with this new white House.

They have very, very aggressive goals on what they want to accomplish culturally, legislatively.

They've said that and it's not just project 2025, but of course, that's sort of the cogent document that looks at it.

Does it feel different now even in the last three months?

Patty?

I mean, what is the climate like now?

Is there a tangible difference to you?

I have not experienced one, to be honest.

Emily, I know you've been dealing with a lot at Central Library, but not necessarily related to the election.

I think, I think here in Rochester, we're in a very, kind of a little bit of a bubble.

we feel very safe here.

I think in general, that's what I hear from people.

more of the changes that I've heard have been outside of this area where there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of fear going on.

in a lot of different areas.

there's also a lot of fear that I'm hearing.

And this actually is in this area as well from the LGBTQ community about what the future is going to hold for them.

if they can rely on local protections in, in the future or not.

that's where I'm hearing, that the, that kind of change come out.

I think this week, though, has been a little bit of a wake up call, at least for me.

the that the Department of Education came out this week and said book banning.

That's a hoax.

I, I find that to be a little bit of a wake up call in my little bubble where I'm like, yeah, but I live in New York, and I'm feeling really protected because, to to have something that I have personally experienced and my colleagues have been experienced, called a hoax like that.

I mean, to me, that's just gaslighting of the highest order.

and a little bit of a wake up call to me that maybe this is something that is going to impact us, more directly in the future.

Adrienne, you know, I feel cautious, but my day to day has been, you know, what it always is, which is pretty pleasant in the library.

with occasional, complaints.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Okay.

Emily has Neil Lynch when you see him.

I think the way the social media climate is changing lately, it's nerve wracking to know that with the meta platforms and X, that a lot of people can be mobilized quickly to advocate for these bands and challenges.

So I think it's definitely nerve wracking, but we'll see how things go.

let's take this only break of the hour, and I've got some of your feedback on the subject.

And then we're going to talk about, how our guests see, really the future of libraries and the present in 2025, the future as we go forward.

Emily Casper is the incoming director of the Rochester Public Library and Monroe County Public Library System.

Patty Charles, the retiring director of those systems.

And they are joined this hour by Adrian Petronella Petronella, who's the director of the Henrietta Public Library.

Emily Hassani Lynch is vice president of the board of trustees for the Monroe County Library System, the owner and founder of Serve Me the Sky digital, an adjunct professor of English and communication at Nazareth University.

We are right back with your feedback.

Next.

Coming up in our second hour, the new director of the OMB, the Office of Management and Budget, is one of the president's cabinet picks that could have a lot of power.

Russell Vote wants to bring back work requirements before Americans get certain federal benefits, including food assistance.

Next hour.

We talked to groups that are working on food assistance in Rochester at a time where they see a lot of crisis.

That's next hour.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson I said earlier this hour that, you know, cultural liberalism or progressivism, cultural conservatism.

It is is not a monolith.

but there are ideas that are more consistent in those strains of thought.

Here's something I don't really get this consistent challenge to kids showing more independence in our brief break.

Can I mention Emily has Annie Lynch?

You're saying even the TV show Bluey.

Bluey?

Has gotten criticism.

For the kids are too independent.

They're sassy with their dad.

They don't, they don't listen.

They get to do what they want.

So I definitely understand that in one strand of thought that tends toward conservatism.

There's a more disciplinarian approach to sometimes to parenting or to raising kids.

Okay I understand that.

But there's also a movement called Free Range Kids.

And we've had the director on this program, and it's definitely skewing more conservative.

and they feel like, you know, kids need to be able to, walk home from school alone and not be picked up by police, that kids who want to go out and play in, you know, in the creek until dinner time, that shouldn't be child Protective Services called.

And again, I know there's crossover, but somebody is going to have to explain to me the conservative line of thought and independent kids because I thought independent, strong kids becoming human beings is what we is.

What was wanted.

But I see this if we're criticizing Bluey, but we want free range kids.

Like, how is it like, what's the Venn diagram anyway?

maybe someone will have an answer for me on that eventually.

Here.

I'll get your phone calls in a second.

Andrew wants to know what kinds of books do your guests think should be banned.

Okay, Emily Kasper, what books should be banned?

Oh, wow.

That is a real tricky question.

And that is why we have in, libraries.

That's why we have collection development policies.

That's why we have very highly educated experts in our in our librarians to make the kind of decisions about what we want in our collections.

I don't think that we ban anything.

I think we make choices about what is appropriate for our collections, what is.

And that is based on a number of criteria, that, that say, what are, what are what are we going to how are we going to make these decisions?

And where are we going to put things in our collections?

I don't think we're actually banning anything.

we might just not choose to put it in our collection because it doesn't fit the criteria and the aims of that collection that that we're building a book that advocates actual violence, that would probably not fit our, our predetermined collection, standards.

Okay.

So there are.

Yeah, there's lines.

There's lines.

Yeah, yeah.

And I can give you a, good example of, book that our people elected not to include in its collection in the last couple of years.

And this was a self-published book by someone who lives in Tennessee, who wrote a rambling treatise that made absolutely no sense.

basically one long sentence, but he published it, had it printed and sent copies to library.

Did you get a copy down?

Thank copies to all of our libraries and.

Well, you couldn't even read this book.

It made absolutely no sense.

That's not something we're going to put in the collection.

And that's one of the issues that I think Emily will have to deal with in the future, particularly with the proliferation of AI.

you know, we're in the last year, we've been having to provide some service, some instruction to our librarians to help them, recognize a text that's written by AI versus a real author.

Yeah.

And because it's important, I think, to remember that libraries aren't just a pile of whatever books just happen to be around.

They're highly curated collections, and we have an obligation as professionals to make sure that the information to them is, is accurate, that, it's timely and that it fits the goals of the collection and the needs of our community.

So, I mean, we couldn't we don't have the budget to buy every single book that's out there.

but so we do have to make decisions.

And that's why we have policies in place and we have guidelines that we make those decisions by.

Okay.

anything you want to add on what kind of books should be banned?

Well, I was going to say there's a weeding process as well that maybe you could talk about for when a book bookstore in demand as much anymore, that it's no longer going to be circulated, especially at the smaller branches that don't have space.

You want to talk about that process a little bit, Emily?

Yeah, sure.

We all have.

That's part of our collection, development policies.

So you can't keep everything forever either.

And there are things that, are no longer demand.

They're no longer, maybe there's been scientific developments that have have kind of disproven what's in the information that's in there.

We see that a lot with like medical information.

You know, there's been advances.

And so we need to keep things up to date.

the information needs to be as accurate as we possibly can ensure.

So those are all we have criteria as well for selecting the books and making sure that we're keeping our collections as current as they possibly can.

Anything you want to add, Adrian?

You know, I think there's kind of a core philosophy of human development here, you know, do you think that you're going to read things and copy every single thing you read, or are you believing that people are going to look at a lot of different things and they're going to think, and that's how they're going to make decisions.

And as librarians, we're taught to believe that that people are going to come in, they're going to look at the full range of what is available, and they're going to make decisions.

so banning is is not something we think about.

We think about you need to see what all the lines of thought are here to make a good choice.

Dallas says, well, there's rating a movie.

blocks kids from seeing certain movies.

Maybe we could put ratings on books.

Books rated R, books rated PG 13.

So I'll start on that one.

Emily, I'm sure you will chime in.

Given your experience with Ala, the rating system is very subjective, and it's based on the values and the life experience of whoever is making that recommendation.

Right?

same is true for books.

Yeah, absolutely.

And the the American Library Association, has a whole lot of guidelines that have been, put out there for to guide librarians out in the field.

And one of those is, not recommending, a rating system for books because it is so subjective and because it really is seen as interfering with the, the parents role in, in helping to make the decisions.

for the children who are, possibly borrowing these things.

Again, I'm puzzling over some things here, and I'm not I'm not trying to be cheeky, but one part of the cultural milieu does not like trigger warnings and safe spaces, but they want warnings on books and maybe safe books as they would define it.

Look, it's an interesting cultural term.

I'll get back to a few of your comments here.

Cara says thanks to everyone on the panel for their time.

Librarians are essential to our community.

People who ban books think that if people, especially kids and teens, can't see or read something in the media, then it will just cease to exist.

If kids don't read about other kids acting rebellious, they won't question authority.

If kids don't read about queer folks, they think queer folks will go away.

It's absurd and so hurtful to the kids who need to see themselves in media or simply see a fantasy they have play out.

My kid is obsessed with Matilda at the moment, and I get it.

Kids have so little power.

Reading about someone who has a magical ability like Matilda would be super interesting to him.

It's a safe place to explore those ideas and be entertained.

Yeah, you're Adrian, I agree.

Yeah, very well said.

Okay.

and, boy, a lot of just questions again and specific titles here.

David says I've heard that if a library doesn't contain something that offends you, then it isn't a good library.

How do you feel about that idea?

Oh, absolutely.

Agreed.

I hate some books in our library, like all of James Patterson.

No, no.

Two Scary James Patterson.

He takes a he writes too many books and it takes up too much shelf space.

but, you know, he's also seems quite charming.

So, I mean, this is the problem.

If you're a librarian, you tend to be kind of like David is that offends your morality or your sense of ideas about the world?

Well, it he's constantly murdering women.

I mean, constantly in the most terrible ways in those books, honestly.

Like Kiss the Girls I read and I'm never, ever, ever going to get over it never hurts.

James Patterson.

Yeah, okay.

I haven't read any James Patterson.

That's not my expertise.

Okay, but what do you think about the idea that if a library doesn't have anything that offends you, it's probably not a good library?

I mean, I think that's a cute quote that that people tend to like to, like, stitch on a pillow and, and things like that.

But, I think there is some real truth to that, because if a library is really if we are doing our job, then we're presenting a lot of different viewpoints.

And not all of those things are things that you personally are going to agree with.

And it shouldn't be because like Adrian was saying, we need to look at the broader view and make our own decisions.

And if something offends you, then you have just made the decision that I don't agree with that, but at least you've had the chance to look at it and to make that evaluation for yourself around the table.

Patty, what do you think?

Yeah, one of the hardest things for librarians to do is to buy things, to buy materials that are in direct opposition to their own personal beliefs and beliefs system.

But that's part of being a professional librarian.

It's something that's taught in library school that you buy based on what you know is happening in your community.

So if you have people in your community who want James Patterson, you're going to buy James Patterson.

I recall a conversation I had with a woman several years ago who, was very upset that the Central Library carried Al Gore's book about climate change, but didn't have a specific book that she was looking for that refuted climate change.

And our staff looked at it, looked at the book, they got a copy to review, and it was written by a well-known, very scientifically sound scientist geologist, and it was added to our collection.

She was very surprised that we would do that because when she called me, she was kind of spoiling for a fight, you know, like, why do you have this?

But not that.

and the response from the librarian about why we didn't have it was not that.

Well, I don't believe in this.

It was this is from a very small publisher, and we didn't have access to it at the time.

they're getting over the that that personal belief system is, is something that every librarian has to do.

And, you know, sometimes they don't.

Right.

Adrian, I recall a comment that you made to me a while ago about a webinar that you were on where the person who was doing the webinar was saying, well, just don't buy books about Trump.

Yes.

Right.

And you were like, that's censorship.

You can't do that.

Yeah.

I even suggested hiding them on this webinar.

I remember because we were watching it as a group with a bunch of our young librarians, and I got up and I said, guys, no, not this.

No, this is not what we do, right?

No matter how you feel about Trump.

Yeah, exactly.

You can't just ban protest books.

No, but but listeners may be wondering how prevalent is that impulse in your line of work, do you think?

I think it is interesting with the very young, folks coming in because they just have come up in a much different world.

and so I think sometimes it's really hard for me to understand, or I'm surprised by it.

but, you know, we work about it.

We we talk about it.

I think probably I was a little bit more like that, too, at that age.

a little bit more or, I don't know, idealistic or like, I'm going to save the world, kind of attitude.

so maybe that just is all young people, you know, they have to learn, but it is a process of learning.

You know, I had somebody who left the library, I don't know, like 4 or 5 years ago.

And she came to me and she said, I can't work in a public library because I, I myself can't make a wide variety of materials available.

Like, I don't want to be a part of this.

And I said, I feel sad about that, but I, I understand because it's not easy.

It's not easy to do.

So there's going to be books that offend you.

I mean, like, again, that trite little saying.

But there's there's an example.

Yeah.

If you're a librarian who doesn't like Donald Trump, doesn't mean that you can block Trump books.

I had I had an experience when I was a, you know, a newer librarian a number of years ago.

I was working on Long Island and, a library out in the Hamptons.

And this lady came in and, and she says to me, oh, I do you have books by Ann Colter?

And I was like, yes, we have the whole, you know, shelf wall.

And, she said, okay, I want to, I want to see those and so on.

And, you know, me personally on a, on a personal level, her ideas are not ones that I personally subscribe to.

But, you know, that's my job.

I'm going to go I'm going to show you that we have that here.

So I brought her over and, she she was acting a little funny, but.

Oh, okay.

Fine.

Here you go.

I helped her find what she needed, and she brought it back.

And then she stopped me, and she said.

She said, I don't want you to think that I agree with these books.

This was in the Hamptons, remember?

She says Ann is coming over for a dinner party later this week, and I want to be able to destroy her.

And for me as a young librarian, because I was, like a little bit cringing when I was trying to, you know, bring her over to get these books.

And I was like, oh, but that was a real lesson for me as a as a young librarian, about being able to look at the entire breadth of the opinions that are out there.

And there may be people who love Ann Colter, and that's fine, and that's fine.

Absolutely.

I have got to grab a phone call from Virginia in Scottsville who's been waiting first.

Hey, Virginia, go ahead.

Hi, boy.

Just listening to the rest of the show.

And so I called.

I am the spice of the conversations we have are with librarians.

Mark it down.

And I I'm going to add to what I had originally said.

I was going to talk to you.

I was just going to say that perhaps the librarian said that said, that young people think they're going to save the world.

And I think that perhaps.

And she said that she had that feeling when she was young, too, perhaps.

And I said, perhaps she is saving the world by being a librarian.

or at least, contributing to saving the world.

what I, called about was the comment about the, I books, and I wondered whether or wouldn't it be important to have a section of books that are suitable representations of eye books so that people can see what an eye book looks like?

I don't really, have particular access to things that are, made by eye, but my daughter looked something up online and just asked a question and and got what?

Practically a term paper about her brief question.

you know, I think maybe, I is very wordy and very, interesting with the way they say things, but they're not real people.

so wouldn't it be good to have a section, a small section of the library?

Oh, Virginia, this is such an interesting quote.

It's such a good quote.

And so, Virginia, I'm going to take this chance to kind of pivot to give our guests some time to talk and their final thoughts on where we're going next, because someday soon, we're going to have a conversation about how my own personal biases, we're going to see music that's going to have like labels like entirely human made like in the future, like telling people this is not AI because AI is going to be so prevalent.

We're not using AI to do mundane tasks.

We're just taking away artists.

Why are we doing this?

What are we doing?

And it's better than we want it to be, and it's the worst it will ever be, right now, AI is the worst it will ever get.

It writing books and writing poetry and writing music.

It will only get better.

So don't convince yourself.

Oh, I'll always be able to tell if a human wrote this.

You probably won't.

It's nuts.

I'm not a big fan.

I'm going to get off my soapbox.

But Patty, come on, you big AI fans, you love it.

You want AI books?

So, I think what you just said is really interesting that that AI is the worst that it's ever going to be right now, because it's at the beginning.

I think back to our original e-readers, which were about the size of a laptop and twice as heavy.

you know, things will improve, right?

but I'm also starting to see at the beginning of books that are written by humans.

disclaimer that this entire book was written by me, the author.

There was no AI involved.

I'm not sure that we'll see that in AI generated books right away.

I think there's some potential there, for sure.

And I kind of like the idea of, descriptive or a demonstrative section in the library that shows the difference.

you know, we're already working with our staff on helping them try to, to see the difference.

And it's hard.

it's even harder with images, right?

so, yeah.

Virginia, I think that's a great idea going forward.

So smart.

Emily.

Class, were you concerned about the future of libraries because of AI?

I think that I think that, because one of our central things in libraries, one of our central missions, is around information literacy.

that is something that we really need to lean into in libraries and make sure that we are helping the public understand, that what information they're consuming.

So things like looking at AI generated, sources and, and so on, and understanding what that means, where the information came from, how accurate it might be, what kind of biases are built into that.

That is all really important.

I get concerned that people will not understand that that is part of our mission and, and actually very valuable role that we can play in our communities in educating people on that and making them aware.

but if we can, lean into that more and make people understand that that is a role that is absolutely essential for libraries to play, then I think that's something we need to be doing.

Well, said 30s.

Do you want to talk me down for my concern about this?

Do you see any good of the AI in the arts?

Not particularly.

No.

I was hoping you were going to give me some wisdom.

Like now it's going to be okay.

No, I was just going to remind folks that libraries have a lot more than books to them.

stepping back from AI, there's so much that you can check out of our local libraries.

You can get sewing machines, ukuleles, fishing poles, lots of amazing things.

And libraries are always changing and adapting for your parks.

Yeah, yeah, there's so much that libraries do.

So make sure you check out all the things.

And I want to say as we wrap here, you know, that's something that that Patty, Tara and staff have been doing such a great job on.

This program is making sure that the community knows the full range of services, because we've talked a lot about books and this cultural moment, and we should and we will talk more about that.

But libraries have a big wide range to play a big role to play in the society.

And yes, I sound like a homer.

And yes, I sound like, you know, just kissing up to the guests.

But I love public libraries.

I spent a lot of time them as kids.

I want my children to have a chance to do that.

And I hope we're all thinking about that.

Patty.

Happy retirement today.

Thank you.

Thank you for the work that you have done for this community.

It's been a pleasure.

Outstanding.

Emily Casper I hope we get used to talking to you more here.

All right.

Any time you want.

I'm up for it.

Come back here anytime.

Adrian.

Nelly.

Great having you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

I know Emily has any lunch.

We'll see you again soon.

We've got more connections coming up here.

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