From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in the state of Indiana this week.

When a block of state Republicans defied President Trump.

The president wanted Indiana to draw new voting district lines for the purpose of creating more Republican leaning congressional districts ahead of next year's midterm elections.

Indiana has had a long policy of redrawing lines every ten years, and this is not one of those years.

But Indiana's lieutenant governor said that President Trump called and threatened to pull all federal funding for the state of Indiana if they would not go along with this plan.

The Republican led, led legislature held firm, and they said no to the president.

The Republicans who voted against drawing new district lines said they want to honor their state's plan and not simply cave to a president, even President Trump.

It was, for some, a surprising rebuke of the president from some of his loyal followers.

And it comes at a time when there are some cracks showing in the MAGA movement.

Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene has been long one of President Trump's most vocal supporters in the country.

But in recent months, she began criticizing the president, eventually leading to an ugly and very public split between the two.

President Trump now calls her Marjorie traitor Greene.

She's leaving Congress early, resigning next month, and says President Trump has inspired death threats against her family.

Political identity is powerful.

California Governor Gavin Newsom told The New York Times this week that he now looks back at his own actions in 2020 and 2021 as having been influenced by the far left of his own party, the Democratic Party.

During a time when Newsom said it was hard to break from party orthodoxy on social issues.

But Newsom says Democrats can pull back from the edge.

We'll talk more about his comments in a future episode of connections.

Today, we discuss the pull away from MAGA, whether that is real or fictional and what might drive it.

My guest is the founder and executive director of Leaving MAGA.

Rich Lojas is back with us.

Rich, thanks for making the time.

I'm great.

Evan, it's good to be back with you.

And happy holidays to you and your team and to listeners and to you as well.

Nice to have you, Rich.

For those who don't know you, can you briefly retell your own story?

Sure.

I was somebody who served as a grassroots activist for the Trump campaign in 2016.

I, contributed part of the call script of the campaign.

I was, somebody who recruited people to vote for Donald Trump.

And after the 2016 election, I got deeper and deeper into the MAGA world and in the community of MAGA, and I became a podcaster.

I had dozens of freelance articles.

I, I had bylines in places like Fox and The Federalist.

I supported Trump groups.

I spoke at them.

I was a sponsor of them.

But it was in the summer of 2021 when some of my own personal cracks started to form.

And I like to paraphrase Ernest Hemingway and saying that my own epiphany happened gradually and then suddenly, all at once, after my governor, Ron DeSantis, platformed anti-vaxxers at his press conference, I went and diversified my news and information sources, and I came to better understand January 6th Trump's mismanagement of the pandemic, the stolen election lies.

And then the final straw for me was May 24th, 2022, which was the Uvalde, Texas school shooting.

And it was, not too long after Uvalde, a that I published a mayor culpa.

It was on August 30th of 2022.

And in that apology, I said that I was sorry for supporting Trump, that I wanted to, apologize to anyone I may have hurt with my words, deeds, and rhetoric.

And the honest truth of it even was I never thought that anybody would care.

But it turned out people did care.

And borne from the the recounting of my story was our organization weaving MAGA, which is a new community for people who decide to leave and for those who have doubts about their support for the MAGA movement.

Rich, when you were in the midst of that movement, what at the time did you think of January 6th when it happened?

I am embarrassed to admit that what perturbed me about January 6th, when it was occurring in real time, and subsequently thereafter.

But it wasn't the violence committed by the rioters.

It wasn't the fact that someone needlessly died that day.

What bothered me about January 6th was my concern that the insurrectionists were harming our chances of a 2024 comeback.

So when I should have been disgusted and revolted by what happened, my mindset, Evan was more about damage control, and I thought that groups like QAnon and the Proud Boys were merely hobbyist groups who had no influence.

But after I diversified my news and information sources, I came to better understand that those groups were in fact not hobbyists, but had a great deal of influence and had the backing of the most powerful person in the world.

And when I came to better realize what January 6th was, it was one of the it was one of the the cracks that eventually widened.

And it was that chasm, along with others, that eventually led to my leaving of MAGA.

I never supported what happened on January 6th, but I did not think it was a big deal.

At the time, I thought that it was hyperbole by Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans in the press.

Sure.

And, what were your primary sources of information before?

As you say, you diversified your news sources.

I was consuming most of the media that I was writing for, ranging from Fox News to The Federalist.

I wrote for a site called World Net Daily and which is the site that originated the Obama birther conspiracy.

And I knew that.

But it didn't matter to me because my activism as an aspiring MAGA pundit who wanted the attention of the president superseded in importance the fact that WMD was responsible for one of the grossest conspiracy theories of the modern era.

And the site that I probably consumed more than any other was right.

I lived on that site.

I checked it numerous times a day.

I lived in the comment section and all of that media combined.

What I came to understand about it is it kept me in a right wing media echo chamber, and it's why any information that refuted any of the media that I consumed was rejected.

And any media that challenge engages the pervasively held mythologies of the MAGA community is also rebuffed and turned away.

So that was that's why I, looking back on it, was so ignorant and allowed myself to believe so many lies because of the media that I was following.

Well, I want to ask you about some of the stories that are making national headlines now, and I want to start with what you make of the president's fight with Marjorie Taylor Greene.

So it's possible that Marjorie Taylor Greene is just opportunistic, is doing what a politician typically does and is thinking about her future.

But there's also the possibility that she's having a genuine she's undergoing a genuine transformation.

And I am willing to keep an open mind that she is changing for the better.

I would like to think that my story, the stories of our leaders who have also left MAGA, which people can read at our site, leaving maga.org, we're all living proof that it's possible for people to change, and I think that anyone who changes and seeks genuine penitence is deserving of our grace.

It does not absolve Marjorie Taylor Greene of some of her past abhorrent statements, but part of her own change, if she's undergoing one that is genuine and sincere, is the requirement is you have to take responsibility for your past.

And she, to her credit, has been doing that.

And so it's why I'm inclined to believe that, that this change is one of sincerity and is not a fake change just for the purposes of opportunity or publicity.

Well, she sat down recently with CBS news.

Is Lesley Stahl, and I want to listen to some of their conversation there.

After President Trump called me a traitor, I got a pipe bomb threat on my house.

And then I got, several direct death threats on my son, on your son, on my son.

You say the president put your life in danger.

You blame him.

You say he he fueled a hotbed of threats against me, and that you blame him for the, threats against your son.

The subject line for the direct death threats on my son was his words.

Marjorie.

Traitor.

Green.

Those are death threats.

You directly fueled by President Trump.

I and I told him.

I told J.D.

Vance, I told them all sent those directly to them.

And response J.D.

Vance replied back to me.

We'll look into it.

I got response back from President Trump that I will keep private, but it wasn't very nice.

Give us a hint of what the president said.

It was extremely unkind.

Her life is in danger.

Who's that?

Our Taylor Greene, she says Marjorie Taylor Greene.

I don't think your life is in danger.

I don't think, frankly, I don't think anybody cares about her.

Rich.

Just what do you hear there?

What I hear is one of the reasons that I eventually left MAGA, which was the acceptance of politically motivated violence and the defense of unnecessary death, suffering and trauma.

And the fact is, the president's words do matter.

They do have an impact, and they do have influence.

And as a result of the president's words, you now have someone in her child who is in the crosshairs of people who might consider committing violence against her.

And that's been something that the president has engaged in for years.

Even when I was in MAGA, I knew that his words could cause harm, but I looked the other way.

I was somebody who defended the president during those actions.

And looking back on it, I know now that I should not have and Marjorie Taylor Greene should not be subject.

No one should be subject to those kinds of death threats, but those threats come as a direct result of the president's rhetoric, which since you have launched leaving maga.org and founded leaving MAGA, have you been threatened, have has your your site or your organization been threatened?

So thankfully, we have not been threatened.

Our comments that we receive from those who are in MAGA online tend to be more, I would say, more innocuous comments, such as that I was never MAGA or that I'm a paid Democratic operative.

Sometimes I receive comments that that I and some of our leaders are pedophiles.

That's one that's quite common.

And I think even without trying to psychoanalyze comments like that, one of my hypotheses about why so many people are in MAGA is I think that for some, being in MAGA is a cry for help, and they've endured their own trauma.

And I'm not defending those kinds of comments, whether they're directed at me or Marjorie Taylor Greene or anyone else.

But I feel like there are cries for help among some people and MAGA people who feel left behind, people who feel unseen and unheard, and those cries manifest themselves in these kinds of comments, whether they're violent or violence adjacent.

And so while we've avoided death threats and threats against my own way, for my own safety and security, I also embracing for the fact that those kinds of comments will probably inevitably come my way.

Well, I take your point that you want to give some grace and take Marjorie Taylor Greene at her word and give her space to have a legitimate, in your words, transformation.

But it was just six months ago.

Maybe, maybe right around there that we saw Elon Musk break with the president.

Elon Musk tweeted that the president was in the Epstein files and basically called him a pedophile.

And less than six months later, there's Elon Musk back at the white House, dressed in a tuxedo for the state dinner for the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, making nice for the president and bragging about Doge again.

And it makes, you know, some people cynical.

It makes them wonder, are we going to see that from Marjorie Taylor Greene?

Is she going to be back at the white House as a guest of the president?

Is there something else we're missing here?

Do you think the Musk case is different than the Marjorie Taylor Greene case?

Well, I think with Musk and Trump, both of them share a common trait.

And that trait is transactional ism for them.

Every relationship is transactional.

And if Marjorie Taylor Greene tomorrow said I was wrong, I think MAGA is great.

I support the president.

She would have the red carpet rolled out for her at the white House.

If I were to say the same, the president would welcome me back with open arms.

But what would happen is the president would tell myself and would tell Marjorie Taylor Greene, don't ever cross me again.

Because if there's one characteristic of this presidency, it's retribution.

It's it's using the power of the federal government and the presidency to exact revenge.

So I'm not surprised at all to see Musk back with the president, because he and Trump are both transactional individuals.

That's the way they view every relationship.

They're both takers.

They're not givers.

And so I think with Trump, he figures that what Musk may have said about him in relation to the Epstein files doesn't matter much with his base.

But I think, Evan, that there are actually cracks forming within Trump's base.

And I think that the president knows that.

And I think it's it partly explains some of his more than usual unhinged behavior as of late.

Well, so let's talk about that.

When you joined us more than a year ago, you were confident that more people would join your movement out of MAGA over time.

And there doesn't appear to be a lot of data backing that up at this point.

I mean, do I maybe I'm missing something, but but were you wrong?

Are you surprised?

So it's it is hard to gauge how many people right now may have quietly left.

Or maybe you're quietly having doubts, but I think that there's some anecdotal evidence that we can point to that would suggest that these chasms are widening with us.

When we started out, it was just myself.

Now we have a leadership team of over 25 of those who have told their stories and have given witness and testimony to their own MAGA Odyssey.

I think that some of the polling, even though I tend to be a polling skeptic, does show with the president's low approval ratings that there have to be some people who are in MAGA who are feeling disillusioned and dissatisfied right now.

And it could be for a whole host of reasons.

It could be the inhumanity of the immigration raids.

It could be the fact that the tariffs are causing real economic harm to many of the people who did vote for Trump, that there are people who have lost jobs in the federal government as a result of cuts enacted by this administration.

So, yes, it's difficult to point to a lot of hard data, but I am wagering a bet that there are more and more who are quietly leaving MAGA.

And what's the next important part of that is we have to give them some place where they can tell their story.

And that's why we formed our organization as that new community, that new destination for people where they have an exit ramp.

We have consistently added more and more testimonials to our site.

There are more that we're working on right now.

And the good news even, is that those who are giving their testimonies with us, they tend to come to us.

So I think that people are who have left MAGA, I believe, are feeling more emboldened in wanting to speak out against this president and the administration's.

I want to listen to one other piece of sound here.

And it comes from a conservative Republican who is opposed to Trump.

That's David French, and he joined the bulwark podcast yesterday to describe some of what he sees happening now.

David French says he does not think there's a whole lot of evidence that Trump himself has lost popularity among Republicans.

In fact, he says, it used to be that people who are more small see conservatives, or social conservatives like himself but opposed to Trump would be on the fringes of the Republican Party.

And now it's flipped.

But he said, as the end of Trump's term in office comes into view, he does see some cracks within the coalition.

Let's listen to some of what David French said.

Two things are happening at once here.

One is Trump's not on the ballot anymore.

So that shared affection for Trump is not at holding the coalition together as much.

And then, number two, the Democratic Party isn't the same party as it was in 2020, and the Republican Party is getting more extreme.

And so the Democratic Party has been moderating as the Republican Party has been, radicalizing.

And so a lot of that means that normie Republicans are now facing worse treatment and more vicious treatment from MAGA Republicans than they've ever experienced from Democrats.

And while you still have a coalition that's hanging together, you can see it's bleeding numbers.

My goodness.

I mean, did you see some of the election results from earlier this week?

Just remarkable.

And so I think what has happened is while a lot of the Republican disunity has been obscured by these continue defection of of Partizan Republicans for Trump.

You go one layer below that, just one layer, and the whole thing is starting to pull apart at the seams.

This this coalition is not a stable coalition of people.

Rich, low.

Just what do you make of that?

Well, I think that David astutely points out, a couple of points.

The first is that when Trump is not on the ballot, MAGA candidates do not do well.

And I am not qualified to give any kind of postmortem or electoral analysis.

But the facts are that MAGA candidates without Trump there to to prop them up on ballots, they don't do well and they tend to lose elections.

And I think also another point that he makes is that while it is not happening as rapidly as we would like, MAGA will unravel.

When Trump is off the scene.

It won't go away, but it will unravel itself.

And the important part if if in fact it does burst at the seams.

As he said, the key is to then catch people before they get subsumed into whatever the next iteration of right wing politics are.

MAGA is what Trump very effectively did is he took right wing politics, which have existed for generations, and he branded them and he gave that name, that moniker of Make America Great Again.

This is why there is this fealty to Trump, because he is the the titular leader of the MAGA community and the movement.

And it's why, when he's off the political scene, there's no one who's really going to be able to replace him because he is the originator of this brand name of politics.

So I think that David French's point about the coalition starting to weaken, I think is, is accurate.

And I and while it's not happening as rapidly as we as we would like for it to, to to see that it's happening, I agree with him that it is and that we have to just keep we have to keep reminding the country of what Trump is doing and and showing how what he's doing is anathema and antithetical to democracy in our democratic lowercase d institutions.

Well, let me just push a little bit on that point, and then we'll take some feedback from from listeners for Rich low, just my guest, who is the founder and executive director of leaving MAGA, joining us from his home in Florida.

Rich, it's one thing to see the path that you are on, which is you were an ardent Trump supporter for years, and then you saw him very differently, and you do not support him at all.

Now, that is not the same as saying this is a coalition that loves Trump, but is not going to be cohesive when Trump is not on the ballot or when it's 2028 and beyond, because they're they there's not going to be another inspirational and charismatic figure like Trump to have that kind of magnetism.

And so the coalition will fracture.

Those are two different things, aren't they?

Well, I think that it's important to stress that, like, all right wing politics, MAGA will not go away.

But I do think that most people in MAGA, deep down are good people.

And I while I don't defend their ignorance, I think it's important to emphasize to listeners that all of us are susceptible to being influenced.

And I believe that most MAGA supporters, genuine and sincere fears and concerns have been exploited and manipulated.

And I think that most people in MAGA even do have a line of demarcation.

There is a red line where there's there would be one betrayal or one y too many, and if they reach that red line, it will it will commence some of the doubts and some of the confusion that I felt and will motivate people in MAGA who are having those doubts to start to question their belief system.

One of the the hardest parts for me and leaving was I had to liberating Lee, but painfully accept that I had believed years and years worth of lies and I said at the Democratic National Convention last year in a video testimonial that Trump's toxic superpower is lying.

But if someone in MAGA starts to feel that Donald Trump is dishonest, and I am convinced that most people in MAGA know that Trump is dishonest, I do think that if there's one lie to many, some people in MAGA might start asking if Trump is lying about one issue, is he lying about other issues?

And that's where we can start to catch people who are starting to question their allegiance to the MAGA movement?

Well, I mean, his approval rating is low, and he is struggling clearly with the fact that the economy is not reflecting what he said it would a year ago.

But Rich, he goes out and says the price of meat is down.

When the price of meat is at an all time high.

He is lying about a lot of different prices that are down about gasoline prices.

He does that all the time.

And and then at a rally this week, he says, well, maybe you can just buy fewer pencils, you can buy fewer toys for your kids, which is the exact opposite of this really kind of flowering economy that that he claims is happening.

He's saying it well, maybe we all should just have a little bit less.

So yeah, I mean, there's dissonance there.

There are lies there, but there's not a total mass exodus from the president.

So I mean, when is what you're describing going to happen?

If it's going to happen?

You know, I think that an exodus and epiphanies like my own happen gradually, slowly, and then suddenly all at once.

And while the president lies about essentially every issue, the lies about economics fall flat because people know the financial stressors that they are enduring in their household.

So no matter how much Trump lies to them about the cost of food, or the cost of insurance, or the costs of energy that are that are lower and cheaper, people in MAGA know that that's not true because they they see their own prices and what their own cost of living is.

And I think the more that the president lies about the economy, I think it makes it a little more likely, Evan, that we might start to see the beginning of of some of that exodus that so many of us so desperately want to see.

Trump can lie about any issue he wants.

But when it comes to the the middle class and and the cost of living struggles that we endure, he can't lie his way out of the reality that that costs right now on some line.

Items are actually higher today than when he was elected.

So we're going to come back in a moment.

We'll take calls from Adam.

Kevin, I've got emails.

We're talking to Rich Lois, founder and executive director of leaving MAGA.

We'll come right back and take your feedback on connections.

Coming up in our second hour, my colleague Gino Fanelli joins me to talk about Airbnb in Monroe County.

My colleague Raquel Stephen joins me to talk about the rise in measles and flu cases in our region.

And we close the week with a talk about the toys making the National Hall of Fame list that the strong.

So a fast moving hour to clothes talk to you next hour.

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This is connections.

I'm Evan dawson, Adam in Newark.

First on the phone.

Hi, Adam.

Go ahead.

Hi, guys.

How are you doing?

Very good.

I'll make my comment first, and then I just have a question for the guest.

Basically anybody that now, right now is claiming to just be starting to get off the Trump train off the MAGA boat.

Well, I have very little sympathy for anybody that wants credibility for making that choice.

And now, because the first term, okay, it was it was an experiment after January 6th, after all his lie as I could go on.

It's it's not been a joke for a long time.

And it's it's very serious for the country.

And my comment, my question for the guest is, does he come to this conclusion based on trying to think harder and look deeper, or was it pressure from family, friends who started to tell him that, you know, you know, I don't want to be around you anymore because I have people like that in my life or I don't want to talk to them anymore.

I don't even I can't be around them because I know how they voted.

I know how they felt, but they're their family, right, Adam?

I mean, they're you're they're still your family.

I'm I believe some of them are, believe it or not.

And they're, they're they're all ridiculous about it and they won't give up on it.

It's it's almost a religious fervor or a thing.

And, that's another topic that I feel like kind of relates to this is these people that, I won't go into the religion thing, but anyway.

But for the for the guest, I would like to know if he had those experiences with people in his life saying it's, you know, what are you doing?

Are you serious?

So, maybe not.

Maybe he's just become, I can't really.

Like I said, I have very, very little sympathy for anybody that's trying to now say, you know, I was hurt.

He's lying and all this.

Well, no kidding, it's Donald Trump.

And, Okay, I can give.

I can give him respect for being so public about it with his, online group and whatnot.

But there was very little.

Yeah, I guess you had him.

And certainly, I'm sure Rich respects you're right to say that he questions how long it took.

But at the same time, let's set Trump aside here.

Just I will just say this, Adam, human beings form beliefs for a lot of different reasons.

But when beliefs are tied to identity, you mentioned religious fervor, but when it's tied to identity, there is very little that can break that.

It's not unbreakable, but it's very, very difficult.

And I would just caution against always assuming bad faith or, you know, poor mind or whatever.

I mean, like probably I'm sure there's stuff that I believe that's absurd.

I mean, everybody has maybe something beliefs are hard to break.

It takes time.

And, but I'll give Rick some some time there because Adam thinks.

Took you too long.

Rich.

And he he wants to give you credit for speaking publicly, but not too much credit because he says you should have figured this out sooner.

That's that's what he thinks.

Rich people.

Wow.

Adam, I'm, thank you for the question.

I'm, former Yonkers, New York guys, so not too far from Newark where you are.

And I appreciate your frustration and exasperation about it taking a long time to eventually realize the dangers of Donald Trump and of MAGA.

What I would say, though, is my friends and my friends whom I lost contact with because they were Democratic voters, didn't give up on me.

And when I went back to them to apologize for lumping them into a category of being an existential threat to my life and my country and my family, all of them accepted my apology, and one in particular very important in my life, dating back to college.

He said to me, Rich, I always knew that you'd come back.

So I would really, recommend and strongly encourage you to please keep the light on because you don't know when someone might start on their own.

Come to Jesus road to Damascus moment, and we want friends and family of those in the thrall of MAGA to want to make themselves available for those in MAGA who start to have doubts.

We we have a Tuesday night support group that we do online.

It's free.

We don't charge for it.

And it's a place where friends and family come together.

Of those in MAGA to tell stories, talk about their relationships and find healing.

So it's not Adam your responsibility to coddle someone in MAGA.

You are under no obligation to try to change anyone's mind, but be there for your friends and family and MAGA, because there's possibly a day that's going to come when they're going to come to you and say, you know, I'm I'm starting to have doubts and I'm starting to have second thoughts about this.

And you want to make sure that they don't feel that you'll judge or ostracize them.

Rich.

In nine days, I'll be with a big group of family.

Dozens of people.

There will be far left lefties.

There will be center centrist Democrats.

There will be small c conservatives who can't stand Trump.

There will be fire breathing MAGA people.

This the family's got a lot.

And we're all going to hold hands and sing Johnny Appleseed.

And I would not have it any other way.

I understand Adam, Adam is feeling differently.

But how do you feel rich about saying, I'm going to turn my back on friends or family based on beliefs?

No I don't, I think about if my friends had done that to me, and there's a good chance that if they had done that, that I wouldn't be here right now talking about this topic or having an organization leaving MAGA.

All of us are vulnerable to being influenced and the reality about right wing propaganda and agitprop is that it is effective and the lies do tend to have a very formidable ability to penetrate people's thinking and psyche.

So if we if we give up on our friends and family as being lost causes and helpless, then it results in giving.

It gives people a reason who are in MAGA to not leave, even if they know deep down that they should.

It was hard for me to walk away.

In addition to believing the lies that I did and creating an entire identity and public persona around them.

But it was also hard, even because I had a second family of my MAGA compatriots and as a as a shamed as I am to admit this, sometimes that MAGA second family took precedence over my own blood family, and I neglected my my duties as a a parent and as a husband because I was embroiled in a political battle against and against the existential threats of those who were not with us in MAGA.

So as a friend of mine always says, keep the light on.

Don't give up on your friends and family.

Try to remember who those people were before Trump and MAGA came on the scene, because the goodness in those people, it's still there.

All right, let's get back to phone calls here.

Kevin and Victor next.

Hey, Kevin, go ahead.

I haven't, so much to think about here.

First off, what's your guest?

First name again?

Rich.

Oh, yeah.

Rich.

First off, you know.

Yeah.

You talk about MAGA like it's, you know, the the Taj Mahal or the Great Wall of China.

Like it's a thing, you know, just a slogan.

It's just a name.

I, I support Trump because he's way better than Kamala Harris or some wall, you know, I mean, there's this there's no way I support them or vote for them.

So Trump became a guy who stood up for a lot of things that I believe in and basically the whole conservative movement believes.

And whether, you know, you can question whether he really believes them that deeply himself, but he's the guy and he's got animal magnetism, he's got Prisma, he's and he did.

You know, he just marched through so much adversity and is still standing, you know, almost being killed.

But there was a movement, a concerted movement that existed before Trump.

He didn't start that movement.

You're a guy in my thinking who saw this bandwagon, a mega bandwagon.

You jumped on it.

You got gigs writing and doing stuff, and you're kind of an important person.

And then you were disillusioned.

So now you just go 180 degrees opposite from that.

And you were supporting Tyler Harris and Tim Walz and trying to get people out of MAGA Washington even exist.

But, you know, I don't understand that.

Well, why don't you just go to trade school and become a plumber?

You make good money and, you know, you just won't be annoying people like me.

But I heard it.

Kevin, hang there for one second.

I want to give Rich a chance, and then we can jump back in with you.

Go ahead.

Rich, you know, I think that there were valid reasons for supporting Trump in 2016.

There were issues raised about economics, about outsourcing of jobs, about once vibrant communities that had been hollowed out due to jobs going overseas.

I personally did not lose a job to overseas, but I knew people who were small business owners who lost business to other countries.

But that was then, and I would respectfully disagree with the caller in saying that MAGA is just merely a slogan.

That is, that was not my experience.

MAGA was my wife.

In fact, it not only was my wife, I forget about taking a day off from MAGA.

I never took an hour off from it.

And what MAGA is, in my opinion, it's not a it's not a cult.

It's a community.

It is a place where people find camaraderie, a sense of belonging, and also have a shared belief that democracy and liberalism have left a lot of people behind.

And I don't think that that's a completely invalid belief, because there are times when democracy and liberalism maybe haven't served well the entire country.

But to say that Donald Trump represents a as his presidency, as one that is representative of all Americans, Donald Trump has clearly shown that the people most important to him were only the ones who supported him.

Not all of the people that he took a constitutional oath and swore that he upheld to defend and to represent.

Well, let me bring Kevin back in.

I'll just say to Kevin's point, I understand the idea for people who don't feel like rich if you are MAGA, but you're not thinking about it every hour, the way Rich was, and you would go, look, that's just a slogan that I agree with and I agree with the movement.

I agree with the president, but it's not my life.

To Rich's point, for some people it is much more involved.

It is an organization.

It is a community in the same way that for some people take Black Lives Matter.

Some people say, I put that sign in my yard because I believe Black Lives matter.

I believe it to be a slogan that I agree with, but for others, they worked for an organization that had a political ideology and an organizing philosophy.

So Antifa, you could it.

The list goes on.

So there are slogans.

Yes, but then there are organizing.

So I don't want to get caught up in that.

But Rich was very, very deep in a very much a community.

Kevin, I'll, I'll let you follow up if there's something you want to add there.

Go ahead.

Okay.

Yeah, I would say this.

The thing is, like I said, most people who support Trump were there for decades before.

They have core conservative beliefs and lessons.

That's why they're like Trump, which didn't have that.

He said he used to be a liberal.

Now he's back to liberal.

He just jumped on the bandwagon and he got jobs.

He was working.

He was getting paid.

He's doing things, he's rising, he's doing podcasts and fast.

Okay, you had a K you're getting rewarded for.

So that's what you're into.

You weren't someone with those core convictions that go back decades.

But most of the people who support Trump I love Trump, but Donald Trump himself didn't have core convictions.

He used to be a you don't know.

So what's it all was, you you don't know his heart.

So please don't pretend like you do.

But you you you're trying to pretend you know Rich's heart.

Come on, Kevin, you said he used to be a liberal, and all of a sudden you're walking.

So did Donald Trump.

I know he's lost it.

I know that, but he's not.

He's not returning to that.

He's that.

He's he's out of the chaos that he's been.

So you can pivot once, but you can't pivot again.

Is that what you're saying?

If you pivot again and then it's just opportunistic.

He's he's 79 years old.

He probably drop dead tomorrow okay.

There are a lot of people who I'd rather he have leading the government to Donald Trump.

But I'm just saying we have a binary choice politically in America, Donald Trump, compared to Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, who are the most despicable, feckless people who've ever run for office, there's no comparison there.

Okay, Kevin, I appreciate the phone call.

Rich, anything you want to add?

Well, I would like to say that I am, not a Democrat.

I don't belong to any party.

I've retained my independence status because I feel that it brings me a little bit more credibility as a director of a nonprofit.

But I would disagree with Kevin's remark that Kamala Harris and Tim Waltz were inferior candidates.

I don't believe they were perfect candidates.

But full disclosure, I did work for Kamala Harris's campaign in, in Florida here as a Republicans for Harris co-chair.

So I would respectfully disagree with the categorization of of how Adam or excuse me, how Kevin referred to, Vice President Harris and Governor Waltz and just briefly, Rich because I got a lot of phone calls.

We want to work through them.

Is there one position that you still say, oh, my Democratic friends are surprised I'm this conservative on this particular issue?

Is there one that surprised me?

And on the left, yeah, I'm a firearm owner.

I have a, concealed carry permit.

I don't carry every single day, but I am a believer in responsive firearm ownership.

Having said that, I think that our firearm laws federally are about 50 years lagging so that Evan tends to raise a couple eyebrows here and there.

But it is.

It is a belief that I've maintained and held on to John and fair points on the phone next.

Hi John.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Hey.

How are you doing?

Good.

I'm just going to respond.

I'm, I'm a registered Republican, which is very difficult to be in our state.

The reason I'm registered, not independent.

As your host, I guess that was, is, you know, it because New York state law, doesn't allow me to participate in any primary.

So you got to be registered one party.

Yeah, but, you know, as far as my dad goes, you know, I don't know.

I don't know anything really about MAGA.

And I think if there's a very small percentage of people who voted for Donald Trump, who get wrapped up in that whole, Rob Roth MAGA, thing, I mean, I just, I, I supported Trump because I thought he, was more in line with a number of the things that I felt needed to be changed in the country, and that's it.

Okay.

Have you have you moved it all on Trump?

Is there anything that the president's done that has, alarmed you?

I like him to keep his mouth shut.

You know, that's the way the way he goes about, you know, Some people, doesn't really do any anyone any good.

You know, as far as the, you know, as far as the tariffs go, I'm, you know, I'm uncertain.

I'm not I'm not an economist.

I'm uncertain how that can all play out.

But, you know, in regard to what he's done with the border, I'm, you know, I'm in favor of that.

If you want to have more, immigrants come into the country that, you know, have to do with Congress by changing the laws.

And I do feel that if, you know, if if you've come here, not according to our law, then you know, that's the problem.

If you've already broken a law first thing when you when you crossed into the country.

So for the most part, you know, I'm, I'm good with, with what's been happening.

Okay.

John, thank you for the phone call, I appreciate that.

So, Rich, there's John saying he doesn't love everything Trump says, but for the most part, he wanted to see a sealed border.

John feels like he's seeing that.

My sense is that, you know, Joe Rogan came out recently and kind of broke with Trump over Ice and the deportation of people who've been here for 20, 30 years and are not, committing, are not violent and are not running drugs and are contributing to their communities.

Joe Rogan broke pretty hard with Trump on that.

But my sense is that most Republicans who voted for Trump for the president are not upset with what they're seeing with Ice, and that's not going to be a big deal breaker.

I think if it was, we'd have seen it by now.

What do you think that Rich?

Well, I think that, it has been clearly shown that Ice is not apprehending people with due process.

They are not apprehending only people.

They claim to be criminals.

And to to John's point, you know, immigration as an issue has had a lot of, to use an old political maxim, a lot of kicking the can down the road.

And President Biden, though I am not an apologist for him, did propose a bill during his presidency that had bipartisan support that would have gotten a lot of the the challenges at the border better under control.

But that by originally bipartisan negotiated bill was killed by the Republican Party at the request of Donald Trump.

So these are this is all a reality that is irrefutable.

And and I think that Kevin and John are correct.

And when when they say that most people who voted for Trump are not do not identify as MAGA, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still millions of people who identify as MAGA.

So we've we've got a lot of work ahead of us to, to find those individuals who are having their doubts and want to tell their stories with us, but there are many millions of people who are in MAGA.

It is not a it might be a minority of the country, but it is not a small number of Americans.

Here's an email from a listener named Evan who says, I think your guest in many coming out of the MAGA movement have a unique role and perhaps the ability to coordinate with our democracy as we plan repairs that the Trumpian era has done.

Damage is done.

And Evan goes on to say, I think the window of opportunity is closing rapidly.

Trump is no spring chicken.

In an embarrassing, morbidly forensic way, the Trump experience and experiment has flushed out awful dynamics in our politics and has exposed real weaknesses in our system.

Without him, specifically, as the mirror ourselves, how will we diagnose and heal those coming out of MAGA?

Maybe some of our most needed assets, correcting our system and exposing ongoing chinks in our national experiment and societal cohesion?

What do you think?

That's from Evan in Rochester.

Go ahead, Rich, thank you.

Evan, I think that there's a lot to learn.

And, and it's incumbent upon all of us as people who left to rediscover our democracy.

Leaving MAGA, for me, meant a rediscovery of democracy and our institutions and the norms and the mores that, though flawed and though imperfect, had led our country for nearly a quarter of a millennium and those norms were shattered by Donald Trump and I don't believe that our window is rapidly closing.

But there's no doubt that harm has been done to our democracy, and it's why it's just so important that people be registered to vote, that they turn out to vote, especially in their state and local elections.

But we're going off of myself, and our leaders are going to continue to keep getting our message out there, because we want more and more around the country to know about us, because we want to find those individuals who are having their own doubts, because the best advocate against, in my opinion, against what the president is doing are those who used to devoutly support him.

The website Rich is talking about is leaving maga.org if you want to check out what he's been doing in our last 30s Rich, we saw the governor of Pennsylvania, a Democrat, Josh Shapiro, possible presidential candidate, the governor of Utah, a Republican, Spencer Cox, possible presidential candidate, onstage together praising each other, talking about good governance, how Spencer Cox as a Republican for you, would you vote for him?

I, I hold Governor Cox in high regard.

I hold Governor Shapiro in high regard as well.

And what they show is that it is possible for us to disagree better, and that's what democracy ultimately should be about.

It should be about the respectful civil debate, of a marketplace of ideas.

And both of those guys embody what I believe is the when they embody what is very what is best about our democracy, which is that we can have our disagreements and the will of the people ultimately should win out.

The founder and executive director of leaving MAGA is Rich Lowe.

Just joining us from Florida.

Great talking to you, Rich.

Thank you for the insight.

Thanks for being here this hour.

My pleasure, Evan, thanks for having me.

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