From WXXI news.

This is connections I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made on January 3rd, when a local family set off from Rochester on a trip to Ghana.

For Sean Nelms, this was a trip he had long wanted to make with his children.

You might know Sean Nelms as a community leader with a long resume.

He's been a school superintendent, a university of Rochester vice president, a board member for a number of organizations, including WXXI, and the author of a book on leadership.

But the hole he felt in his experience was this journey to Africa, to Ghana, to see the beauty and to stand in the place of also so much pain.

Ghana is, among many other things, home to so-called slave castles, dungeons where men and women were held as a last stop before being shoved on boats to cross the Atlantic.

Nelms thought it would be impossible to stand in such a place and not feel the history, the tragedy, the power of that pain that we can ignore at our peril.

Nelms was thinking about former president of President of Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah, who once said, quote, action without thought is empty and thought without action is blind.

For the Nelms family, this was thought combined with action.

They made the trip.

And as we'll learn this hour, it was also a breathtakingly beautiful trip.

The beaches, the sea, the people.

But it was at its core, a trip of remarkable meaning.

So much so that Nelms has become a kind of evangelist for this kind of experiential travel.

So let me welcome my guest this hour.

Sean Nelms is a professor, and William and Sheila Conacher, director of the center for Urban Education Success at the Warner School of Education and vice president of community partnerships at the University of Rochester.

His book that I think everyone should read is leading with purpose.

It's great to have you back here.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Having a happy New Year.

Happy New Year to you.

And a Joy Jackson is with us, the owner of A.J.

excursions.

Welcome.

Great to have you in studio.

Thank you.

Sean.

You got you got to tell us about this connection.

So I'll tell you, you know, it's a full circle moment.

So Joy and I, we grew up in Buffalo, New York in the same community, actually is really good friends of my cousins and my brother.

And then she moved to Rochester at the same time I did as an educator.

She's an educator by trade school administrator.

And so we've stayed in touch through social media.

Atmosphere is a big hug, sis.

But she's she's been doing these trips for people, local folks, for about ten years now, I think.

Right.

yes.

Yeah I know, yes.

to the continent.

And so I've always kind of been like voyeuristic.

I've watched her trips and see how beautiful they are.

I always ask her about them.

And, there's an opportunity of my, my son, who is my youngest child.

He's a senior in high school.

My middle child is a senior in college.

And my older daughter, she went to the continent, but she went to South Africa in the eastern part of Africa when she got here from college.

And I saw this as my last opportunity to really, ensure they're all available at the same time.

Because when kids get older, yeah, will move away.

But but from the moment they were born, I always said I wanted to take them on a vacation, to the continent.

I wanted to go to Ghana specifically because, it's really the the roots of many of the folks who are on, on the diaspora to this, to this region.

They kind of came from that western part of Africa, from that Cape area.

And so I wanted to get it was this was a an opportunity for me to live my own purpose, to take my children to a place that would help them reprogram how they viewed themselves and how they've been viewed historically in this world.

And, watching a joyous, excursions and learning from her and asking her a ton of questions.

And so she got second inbox in there.

She said, hey, here's my guy.

You go and you figure it out and let's talk about it.

And then you return.

And so since I've returned, I continue to blow up her inbox and just banker.

so much for opening my eyes to a world that, that I didn't, ever imagine.

I have been to Kenya and Tanzania, but that's more like a touristy vacation area.

To be honest with you, Ghana is different because there are direct descendants, that are there.

And so you feel that from the moment you touch those shores.

So why did you start doing this about ten years ago, I wanted to see the world.

I wanted to go to Africa, the continent.

Right.

Because so many of us look at Africa and describe it as a country.

So I decided to break it up in parts and start just going.

And we are on our seventh, seventh country.

And so we decided every year or every other year we just pick another country, go.

And you take groups from Rochester.

I have people from Rochester.

I actually have people as far as Trinidad, London and then all over from California.

This is my last group that we went in November to Senegal and The Gambia came from California, North Carolina, South Carolina, New York, Pennsylvania and Rochester.

When's your next trip?

We actually are going to Ghana, June 27th.

And then we are creating the next trip, which is Seychelles, Kenya and Zanzibar.

And then we do, Italy.

We go to Italy, Salvador, Bahia, which is Brazil, Colombia.

We have gone to Thailand.

We have gone to Dubai, London, France.

Yes.

We we just keep picking countries and or I select the country and I will put an itinerary together and people join me.

So a giant is the person in your life who is like, you're going to go on this trip like you're not going to go in ten years, you're not skipping a year, you're going and probably everybody listening can think of a place that you've never been, and you keep going next year, next year, next year.

and you know, really we're going to talk about this with Sean.

This was it.

but this kind of experiential travel is so powerful.

So, listeners, we'd love to hear from you.

If you want to share some of your recollections on powerful travel experience.

But, you know, this is a you know, I was going to say it was a different kind of travel, different in that I want both of our guests to explain to listeners what they were talking about with me before the show began, because this was a really powerful point.

I mean, a Joya and Sean were saying, this is not the Africa that was described and kind of sold and and depicted for many American children growing up here.

So when we first went to Africa, Doctor Melanie Silas looks at me and says, where are the the young kids with the flies, flying around, where is Sarah McLachlan and all those people?

Because what we were taught and what we were shown and what we were looking at, they did not connect.

It was a huge disconnection between what America, what we see in the news and what is depicted versus when you get there and you see the cities and you see how well they are doing.

Don't get me wrong, they have their poor areas, socioeconomic problems, just like any other city, any other country.

But they also are thriving.

They are doing amazing.

And we don't get to see that.

We do not get to see that black excellence in that magnitude anywhere outside of Africa.

Let's do a little psychology here.

Why do you think that?

We don't see that.

I honestly think it's been by design.

And unfortunately, history repeats itself.

And so when you hear individuals who have traveled, individuals who've seen the world sit back in our own country and hear, history, a particular history of African African-Americans be targeted to be raised.

That's why it strikes such a nerve.

it makes you pause to think, what is so special and beautiful about this culture that people aggressively seek to destroy it into, hide it.

And that is the same orientation that our tour guides had in Ghana saying that, you know, you are one day on the bus.

And he said, you can say you can attest to that.

He says, they stole our best and brightest.

You don't take people to a new land who aren't engineers, who aren't architects, who aren't innovative, who aren't survivors, who, who don't have strong work ethic, a strong will and the, the the intentional effort to break individuals and to enslave them and to place them in a place in a space of servitude.

And they still survive.

Generations still survive.

It speaks to the beauty and the strength of a nation, of a culture, but it also speaks to the intentional destruction by those who are intimidated by its potential.

Every Christmas season, we here feed the world.

I think, I think, I think the holiday USA, USA, for Africa, I think was the group that did the, Bob Geldof and a bunch of people, in the 80s.

And you're right, the video, which we still see circling around, is it's children with a lot of, you know, you know, flies and, and, I Shawn, when you talk about an intentionality, I think probably the artists who recorded that song thought they were doing a good thing for the world.

Listen to helping others is never a bad thing.

You know, it's never too late to do the right thing.

But when you think about Ghana.

So I went there with my mother, who's 75 years old, and with my my children, my fiance and, and myself.

So three generations of my family, my mom, her grandkids and myself visited this, this, this beautiful country.

You know, Ghana itself was under Portuguese rule from that from 1471 to 1642.

Then the Dutch came and they took it from the Portuguese from 1598 to 1874.

Then the British came and continued its colonization from 1874 to 1957.

Ghana has only been independent since 1957.

So this is a moment where I'm standing with my my children.

And I said, you know, Graham was born in 1949.

Graham is older than a free Ghana.

And so like that's the context in which we were oriented in like this.

So when you look at, you know, some African nations and they were the first nation to become independent from colonial rule.

When you think about that in our lifetime, that my mother is older than the most than the than the oldest independent nation in Ghana, in Africa, on the continent, that's troubling.

So when you see roads being built and you see individuals, seeking better education and health care, it's because they've been under rule since 1471.

That context just blew me away.

And I think it was in that moment that I became emotionally attached, attached to the progress of that nation and emotionally attached to seeing it develop in ways that make, that, that, that retells a narrative of strength, innovation and persistence.

Joy, how many of your clients come back feeling the same way?

My first thing I tell you, traveling with me, you will cry.

In every country that we have been in, you will cry.

At some point during your trip, you will cry in South Africa when you realize I am 50 years old.

I turned 50 in November and I can speak to someone that's my age or younger who experience not was talked about for me.

Jim Crow was is history right?

Who experienced what happened in South Africa?

They.

Mandela was their reality, right?

It wasn't a history lesson when you apartheid.

He lived.

My favorite guy that I put everyone with.

He can tell you stories that he's the only male from his age group that survived apartheid.

Right?

You will cry.

When we were in Senegal, we went to Kunta Kinte Island, where?

Kunta Kinte, they traced it back to his door of no return.

So you can go and actually see it this year.

They turned it into a year, and it's going to be a Unesco site because the island is crumbling so much, right?

You can go to Goree Island and see their door of No Return where slaves went in.

And once again, seeing how they captured slave, you will cry because you are going to walk a path.

That you were told about.

Touch buildings that you only saw in history books or we're kind of given some of this information is one thing for me to tell you about slavery is one thing for me to show you a picture about slavery is another thing, to go into a building where people went in and did not come back out is another thing for me to show you roots.

But it's another thing to go to that island and see where on that island, where where he got onto that ship did not come back.

These are things that emotionally will tax you.

It will make you feel things that you are not ready to feel.

It will make you question.

And it will also give you the ability to appreciate, respect that someone got on that slave ship for you to be standing here today.

They survived other atrocities from being enslaved, being sold, being put on a ship, being brought here, Brazil, which and at that time had 4 million to Salvador, Bahia, which is most people don't know, that second largest population of African people outside of Africa.

The continent is in one city in Brazil called Salvador, Bahia.

To see that is one thing to hear about it.

It is another thing to actually go and see it and fill it and speak to people.

So as we talked to Sean Nelms about his recent trip to Ghana with his family, you know, we are going to talk in a moment about some of the signs and Sean will take us through this experiences, ancestral graveyards signs.

It's a male slave dungeon, female slave dungeon, the so-called slave castles.

Let me also just say we will also talk this hour about a landscape that looks incredible.

Food looks incredible.

You know, beaches, a view of the sea, an understanding of the weight of the history, but also the just the beauty.

Yeah.

I mean, were there moments where you felt like you were on a more traditional vacation?

As I said earlier on, I've said on the air before or before we we actually started, the broadcast, you know, I was a history teacher, formally trained state university, taught kids for years before going to administration.

And I never saw that aspect, that visual representation of the diverse ecosystem of the continent.

You know, you would see starving kids and safaris.

And then when you're standing and you're looking out at the Gulf of Guinea or the coast, you're like, duh, it's kind of surrounded by water.

Why wouldn't there be beaches, right?

Why wouldn't there be fresh fish?

Why would you just.

There's this moment where I felt so inept and I felt like I had inept.

Yeah, I just fuck.

I live a lie.

I feel like I have taught a lie that I didn't question the obvious, that I accepted.

And it's going to be controversial.

The I accepted the role of religion in how people, how people were, were oriented into that.

Like, there's just so many different things that you walk away with.

And of course, I left some books that you just walk away with because the narrative that the folks from the continent tell and their stories, that's been passed down through oral tradition and written tradition, it's much different than anything that I read here in America.

And, and, Marcus Garvey said it said it best.

He said people without knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a tree without roots.

And it is my commitment to my family and friends, my my commitment to society that people will understand to the extent possible, how to become advocate for self-reliance, for African unity, to understand the beauty and and and the culture from within without dismissing our wonderful that that we're Americans is not about that.

But but but since I was a child, I can remember my friends going back to Italy or or to Ireland, to their family roots, or even as adults, going back and seeing what their where their ancestors were from or the churches that they attended.

That is an empty feeling when the only place that you can connect to is a history around indentured servitude, forced enslavement.

You know that that that reality that there's nothing before that, that you can connect to leaves an empty feeling.

And so I wanted to fill that void for my, my children.

If I could just read my my daughter textbooks, I asked my my kids, they wanted to comment.

Yeah, I wanted to read this.

I think it's important.

This is my oldest daughter, Nia, 27.

She's the one who's been to, parts of, of, the continent, but never to Ghana.

And she said Ghana was so different.

My trip to Ghana was transform.

It is an African-American woman stepping into every room in every space in Ghana.

I felt like a revelation.

For the first time in my life.

I almost cried when she said this.

I didn't think about race, not even once.

I didn't have to mask myself or look over my shoulder or make myself small to make someone else comfortable.

I was simply allowed to just be.

They accepted me as I was.

It wasn't just a vacation.

It felt like a home coming to a place I had never been, but always belong to.

Walking through a lot in my history in a way I never had before, opened my eyes to the unimaginable strength and endurance of my ancestors.

He gave me a new sense of identity, pride in most of our purpose.

Ghana gave me a gift I never forget the belonging, the feeling of true belonging.

Ghana gave me a gift.

I'll never forget the feeling of true belonging.

And so as a parent, when you hear your kids say that.

You can't help but say, had she had this centering earlier in life, where?

Where she be?

Where would you be?

How free?

What she feel?

Don't do that to yourself.

No, but it's it's it's it's it's it's what?

But once you know, you have the ability to change action, right.

The the quote you said earlier is the action part.

Then she said also since returning, I felt a mix of emotions, gratitude for the experience, sadness for how much it was taken from my ancestors, and a deep longing to hold on to that feeling of being whole and at peace.

It made me question how I bring that sense of community and authenticity into my life here, and share it with others.

It's just so hard to put into words.

The experience wasn't just a moment.

It's something that will shape how I move through the world going forward, and that's a that's an adults was a her adult words.

But it's still my child.

And I can't change what I didn't provide her for 27 years.

But I can educate the community in ways that allow that same misinformation miseducation from continuing.

So that's my commitment.

Oh, what about an amazing note?

Adjoa, you know you've been doing this now for ten years.

Do you get do you get reactions like this from older teenagers?

Younger adults?

27 is very young to me now by the way.

So older I get the more 27.

That's very good.

But that's that's an adult.

But that's someone who is having a first experience.

That's life changing.

Do you see a difference in experience for someone in their 40s, 50 or 67 years versus younger people?

Or is it hitting everybody in that same way?

She touched on something that we spoke about.

And since returning home in November.

The constructs, the idea.

No, I want to let me see the the beauty standards.

That's what I want.

The beauty standards that are in America that we are subjected to right.

When you get there, you are just beautiful.

You see you every day, all day.

You see people who look like you and you're made to feel whole and beautiful.

You don't understand how powerful that is.

When society will tell you that you are not beautiful.

To be there and to be beautiful, and to see beauty in every aspect that is transformative.

I had a 68 year old with me in November, down to a 36.

And that's what every that's the one thing is that for what, 12 days you saw nothing but us in Europeans because Americans don't go over there to visit and vacation, but Europeans do.

So that's that's a whole nother topic, right?

But to see and to see your beauty and to see it be projected back to you.

That that that changes your mindset.

That changes how you view yourself.

That made everyone come home standing taller, standing prouder, and standing in their authentic beauty.

That's not defined by American standards.

Yeah, I think my daughter talked about walking to rooms and feeling small is making yourself feel small.

It's so hard to describe when you walk through life so concerned about someone else's comfort.

Yes.

You know, am I intimidating?

Did I say that clearly enough to articulate that work correctly?

Am I embarrassing my family?

You.

There's like this baggage.

This.

You have it there.

You just have.

You're just speaking with people that looks like you.

You're speaking and seeing people every day.

All day that on a human level understands who you are, right?

And even though you don't have to explain it right, and even those those who are vacationing, there's a sense of authenticity and credibility you give because they're willing to relearn.

You're like, they're here because they want in the same way in which we have to learn about other cultures here, they they are there to learn about and to create a new truth, you know, expand.

Is that true, an experience that true that.

Absolutely.

And I think I think that is, again, that that history is so revealing.

And I think it's why, my fiancé said it's why we have to make sure and challenge ourselves to learn about and read everything that people who are burning and burning books and masking history don't want us to know, because there's truth and power and knowledge and no knowledge stripped.

You talked about Kunta Kinte.

The most powerful scene in that movie was in refusing to give up his name because namesake means something.

It's a lineage, is a connection to a particular tribe or particular region and their customs, the traditions, the entire process of having the enslaved walk in time from months into the slave, don't you?

Let me tell you.

I mean, it was a the.

These dungeons aren't theatrical.

They still have the original signs.

Yes, they had the markings where people clawed.

I mean, to have my daughter put her hands on the the the the nail marks in shackle marks on the walls and then watch them do that to watch my mother stand behind.

I have a picture of her standing behind a prison cell, holding the bars to have my daughters walk through the female dungeons, and just taking a look at that, and then to personally walk through the last door before the enslaved would on the slave ship.

Understanding that the first one he walked in was probably twice my with the last doors, probably half my width, because they starve them so much that they were able to pack them in so I can put more cargo on the ship.

So to me like that, crouched down, make myself small, stand in this last space with like a little bitty window.

It was to break.

It was to break you.

It was to break you.

I mean, it was.

And punish you.

It's a moment I will never forget.

But it's also a moment that I will forever appreciate.

Because now I owe it to those folks.

Sacrificed all that to give back to the society in ways that's meaningful.

So?

So yesterday, I'm not getting distracted by anything is happening.

Well, right now.

Exactly.

I'm going to focus on the things I can control, and that is to uplift individuals who have no historic context about their beauty, their strength and their brilliance.

And our second half, how we're going to get a little bit more of the itinerary included.

but let me grab Lisa from Rochester, who's been waiting to jump in on the phone.

Hi, Lisa.

Go ahead.

Hey, I'd like to speak in support of, part of what Sean Nelms was talking about, the exposure and the importance of of learning about, African cultures and, and specific cultures in parts of Africa because it's an entire continent.

I went to Ghana as, a part of a program as a student because I, as a fine arts student, I had attended two semesters of world art history at Brockport in the 90s, and the art of Oceania, Polynesia and Africa were taught.

And one day in each of those semesters.

And so though I'd wanted to go to, to Ireland to to to study the art of my ancestors, I decided I had to go to Africa to learn it because I wasn't going to be taught it.

And it was an invaluable experience.

And we we have experience that, need to make sure that our institutions, and particularly our state institutions, are teaching that, in particularly right now.

Lisa, thank you for the phone call.

Start with Sean.

What do you think, Sean, I think I absolutely right.

I mean, there's there's nothing to to disagree about.

And I think that, you know, opening up, the continent and this would take this particular case Ghana to the world is is what they've been trying to do.

It's a relatively new country.

1957 ton of opportunities, ton of infrastructure.

I gotta tell you, where we were.

We were driving through, the countryside.

And when I tell you that every single person was out there working and hustling everyone, they don't have a public health system where people can, you know, just go get health care for free.

They don't have a system where if you don't work, you know, you get paid from the government.

As a tour guy said, if you don't work, you don't eat.

And and so everyone from baby to the elderly to those who have physical, disabilities, limitations, everyone's working, everyone's being innovative, everyone is trying to improve their lives.

And so that image of these helpless individuals will require a dollar a day.

Compared to what I saw, a nation who was rebuilding itself with pride, refusing to take money from foreign investors because they want to make sure they can maintain a natural resources that still exists, because a lot of the gold and diamond and other natural resources where you know what we're pillage, for, for for centuries, I think that that's the type of innovation and hard work that every person respects and honors.

But to see it happening real time just really makes you want to reinvent me.

In fact, we're going back next January to take another group of individuals with us.

I think it's just really important to to share that message.

And before I go to any other country, you're doing other visiting, I'm going to make sure that I continue to visit that continent and put my money there where we're going to look at land.

So are we.

So in doing so, this is what we are doing in June.

It's 12 of us and we are all looking at to buy an acre minimum of land.

So.

Well.

And what do you make a joy out of Lisa saying I could have gone to Ireland, checked out my own heritage, but I don't think I learned enough.

I had to go to Ghana to see it for myself.

What do you think?

I loved everything that she said because it's something you need to go and experience.

You will see.

You're going to encounter people.

That speaks what three minimum three languages?

Three, four languages.

We all speak what?

There's one language, right?

And you're encountering kids, adults that speaks two, three, four languages.

You're encountering people that have, like you're saying, worked in our transport in their country.

Right.

You need to see that.

You need to experience it.

Yeah, it's it's me.

And it should be mandatory.

So after we take this only break, what we'll do is we'll come back with our guests and we'll talk about what that itinerary was like was, I think ten days or so for ten days to ten days.

Sean Nelms, if you're just joining us here, Sean, of course, with the University of Rochester.

Now, he's a longtime local superintendent, teacher, author of a book called leading with purpose.

Was it still with the board?

I do like yeah, I, I that's of course I know.

I think you are I always forget who our board is, but we always want to be that he's not here because he's on our.

I support local radio.

We know that.

and a joy Jackson's here the owner of AJ excursions.

And we're talking about these trips that a joy has been helping organize for years now.

And Sean and his family finally went on.

They went on January 3rd.

They went to Ghana and had this experience of seeing incredible beauty, a great vacation in its own right, but also a powerful experiential trip.

Seeing, some of these places that are the were the last stops before Africans were put on boats and taken across the Atlantic Ocean, says sing.

Fingernail, fingernail scrapes in the wall.

powerful stuff.

Let's take this break.

We're going to come back.

We'll talk more about how you build an itinerary and, and we'll learn more from Adjoint and Sean at the after this only break.

I'm Evan dawson Wednesday.

I'm the next connections and extension of the inauguration Day conversation that was cut short by some of the events in Washington.

A chance to talk about how you are feeling during this inauguration week.

A new presidency, a new administration, same as one of the older administration.

They're back.

And we're going to talk about how you're feeling Wednesday.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Carolla Center, proud supporter of connections with Evan Dawson, believing and inform and engaged community is a connected one.

Mary Carey, ola.org.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson Berry emails to say having experienced two wonderful trips to Ghana, I always encourage people to visit there and other places in West Africa.

But the latest 220 Page Road Road Add Road Scholar Trip catalog, which I just received, includes no trips to West Africa.

Sure, there are trips to American states, much of the rest of the Americas, Europe, Asia, Australia, the Middle East, Southern Africa, and to the game parks in East Africa.

But no West Africa.

This major player in the travel industry seems to be making a statement about the desirability of visiting West Africa.

That is, from from Berry.

And you've been hearing from a Joya and Sean, you know, go, this is one of the most powerful places in the world you can go.

Are you surprised to Joya that these these guides are have the whole world and they leave out West Africa?

No, I when I came back, someone had this discussion with me and I was like, well, why are you not booking?

She's like, why is not safe?

I was like, who told you that?

Right?

So in America we give out this misinformation.

But when you get there, all of Europe, that's where they vacation to, right?

But it's made for the public to believe it's not safe.

And it is.

It is.

So we'll start with that question then.

Safe.

Yes.

Yes, absolutely.

You any any concerns for you and your family?

No, that's not what my mother was 75.

She's gonna kill me when I say this.

she doesn't always follow directions.

And she got her money held, and now she's negotiating with everyone.

I'm like, mom, would you please stop?

You know she's making friends.

You think she's everyone's grandmother, you know?

But but there's a moment when I'm watching.

I never felt uncomfortable.

I mean, when I went to Barcelona, all I heard about was a pickpocket in France.

All I heard was a pickpocket.

These individuals understand.

First of all, they want you to come.

They value that.

Everyone's hustling.

So you're going to ask to be asked to buy a necklace by 20 different people when you step out of your car.

But.

But no one's aggressive.

It is a beautiful you know, the tour guy said this, but he says their their their their greatest weakness is their kindness.

Yes.

And that throughout history their kindness has been taken advantage of.

And and that's a problem they, you know, and so they are extremely kind.

I didn't feel at all at ease.

We went out to clubs.

We went to restaurants.

We did everything that I would do in any other, you know, community.

But I actually walk those streets feeling quite comfortable.

we're going to do a quick little itinerary, if you both don't mind.

Not go for it.

But but can I just ask you just a general question?

What's the best thing you ate on this trip?

Man, they have this, black pepper sauce.

Chito pepper sauce.

Now, I know it's not big meal.

I put it on everything.

Eggs, whole fish.

There's a lot of mackerel there.

there's this, dish called banku is like a fermented corn that you actually eat with your hands, or like, fufu, like, there's just.

I didn't have a bad meal at all.

the entire time.

the worst meal I had was a pizza we had on a last night.

Pizza?

We ordered a pizza because the kids were like, dad, we want some, like, other food, you know?

But, no, my kids have grown up knowing that you where you go somewhere you read about it first, and you try everything that you can.

And we did that.

We ate, mostly all day and food the entire time.

And it was absolutely amazing.

What do you remember?

I can't tell you anything bad.

And from any of the countries I've been to, we have had kudu, ostrich.

we we try it and eat it.

we love full food.

We love jollof rice.

That's like where we have not had anything bad I want, in my opinion, in the seafood is just tap fresh match fresh.

You literally see them catching it.

So snapper grouper.

It's funny.

Christine, my, doctor called my fiancee.

She said, she was.

Her mission was to find out who had the best jollof rice.

Yeah, there's a big arc between who has the best rice, Ghana or Nigeria.

It's sort of like who has the best wings here, right?

It's like.

And so you just kind of hear that debate.

And so everywhere we went we had different, different rice dishes.

It was phenomenal.

Every single one was so affordable.

And the fresh fruit oh man.

Yeah.

Fruit like four hours for lunch.

You know, it was you know, it was great.

people are wondering about currency conversion.

How was that?

1501 that's that's when I, when it was 15 and went with Mark was a little high.

It was a one for every dollar is 15 cedi.

And so you know, I would say again most lunches we went to were about 45 KD or $3.

What were you carrying.

And I, we, I had conversion use tap me they had Apple Pay works and all those tap cards work like anywhere else.

Yeah.

but, we, we converted a bunch of money when we got there because it was just easier to exchange for souvenirs, but for restaurants and and, bar tabs, we use a credit card or, some type of tap.

And then you want to add a dry, just that.

Do you realize that they have been having tap for over ten years before us?

They have been using Apple Pay or what is it?

something else?

Yeah.

Cash App and all of that for over ten years.

So is so easy is so easy to change your money over it.

Yes.

And unlike some countries, like some countries don't take American Express.

They take everything.

They take every shot the entire time.

so looking at cities, I've got a list of your key destinations and cultural experiences.

So Accra.

Accra, where I think NPR has had a correspondent based for years.

but, there's a number of museums and centers, etc.. How do you how did you set up an itinerary?

Well, I get I want to give the queen here.

Well, I said, where should I go?

Who should I deal with it?

She gave me a guy named Michael Rollins.

He, runs Torch light tours.

He's on Facebook.

I tagged them.

And again, if you want to see these pictures and experience my Facebook page, I post it to the public.

One so it's open for everyone to see.

I won't take a lot of friend request.

Sorry, but you can go to the public one and take a look.

I posted pictures, a little bit of history about each place that we, that we visited, but but that is like the key city, the major city there and have a ton of museums, and, and actually honors, their first president throughout the entire nation.

and he has a memorial park.

There's national museums, there's a W.E.B.

Dubois center.

Dubois did a, he actually, he, he, he passed away in, in Ghana, trying to, write a encyclopedia of African facts.

And so there's a huge connection between the intellectuals, from the US and from this region.

And most of them, went back to Ghana to live and to stay and to study.

in fact, when in 1957, when the president was, inaugurated, a lot of folks, including Doctor King, was in it was in attendance watching that that monumental moment, momentous moment.

how would you set up, the next itinerary for the first time or someone's going to Ghana for the first time and you could go to the W.E.B.

Dubois center.

You can go to the National Museum, the Independence Square, the Memorial Park, the local markets.

But you've got five days.

You want to do some city, you want to do some coast.

You want to see historical stuff.

What do you do?

I'm not letting you go for five days.

Yeah.

You know, that's five days.

The travel alone is two days.

Okay.

So that means you only have three days, so you have to do a minimum of 7 or 8.

So that's first you would do Accra, you would do, the naming series.

You do your naming ceremony.

That's a must.

Tom.

Tell me why.

Why tell us about that ceremony.

Is twofold right.

My first name is actually I'm named correctly.

Go figure.

I might have found my name in essence book.

thanks to do for Akua, who when they asked me that I know what my name.

It did not know.

It means a child born on a Monday right?

Look it up.

Caught my mother.

I was like, you realize you need me correctly.

I'm literally born on a Monday.

My name is so my middle name and my last name is for the naming ceremony.

So you get your African naming ceremony.

You do that.

That's a must.

You need to go to the Kente village and learn about kente cloth.

We c can take cloth.

just to experience that right?

You need to experience it and see it and see how they manufacture and see how creative they are and how this has been passed down from generation to generation.

the symbols, the symbols and what they mean is, is something that you need to experience.

And then I also want to give you a day or two to relax and shop, because that's what we go there for, like being honest.

Like you need a day or two to shop.

yeah.

I agree.

So, so when I, when, when Adjoa gave me, Michael's name for torchlight tours, I said, I want to do history, culture, a little bit of safari.

Even though the great safaris are on the eastern part of the continent.

but we did go to Mali National Park and saw amazing elephants crossing the road right in front of us.

And it was just relaxing to sit out there and watch them in waterholes and natural environments.

Just walking out of the bush, swimming for two hours and then leaving.

It was just it was amazing.

but I said, I want to culture, history, relaxation, and some adventure and even got a chance to go along this rope bridge.

Seven bridges high above the trees.

I gotta tell you, my knees were knocking the entire time, and my 75.

Yeah, 75 year old mine was walking, waving.

Turner.

Yes, I hold on for dear life.

So that is one thing.

And I put that on there.

And I tell people, if you are afraid of heights, just trust me, I am to.

Yeah, and I made it.

And it's one of my least favorite because I'm afraid of heights.

But if very it's it's it's it's it's adventurous.

And I got to tell you, I was, I was this close to turning around and trying to say, mom, you shouldn't go in here.

You're too old to be walking.

She's.

I'm not afraid of heights.

She just took off.

You know, like I said, she doesn't listen.

So, Okay.

Cool.

National Park is with the canopy rope is, we saw the oldest, mosque in the region.

I mean, it's just I would say I also recommend that you go with the tour guide.

Yeah, and I say, and not for safety, but to maximize your time.

I talked to my really good friend Gerald, who recently, and they chose to kind of create their own itinerary, and they spent more time looking for Ubers and taxis and not knowing where to go.

Our tour guide took us from point A to point B, told us how to where we go.

He gave us orientation each spot and so we really did a lot in ten days.

It and arguably maybe too much.

but but it was, it was absolutely amazing.

So you have a crowd.

Kumasi, the Cape Coast in Amenas where the, slave, dungeons were this other thing I want to mention too, slave River.

And, if you look at that, which is and this is the actual this is, some miles outside of where the slave dungeons were, and this is the last place they would stop to, to bathe those who have been walking for months before they went off to market, if you will.

And so you went through one door and it's called the first bath.

And they come out of the last bath and we walked down those same steps and we had a chance to walk with our bare feet in the water, where ancestors took their last bath.

There wasn't a dry eye in the I mean, in fact, I'm tearing up right now.

There wasn't a dry eye in the entire space because at that point they were unaware that the next stop in their journey.

Yeah, was to the unknown territory.

It was.

It was to the unknown.

What happened after that was completely out of their hands.

And you have to understand that these we talk about Ghana and Nigeria, these were these names were is not how they live.

They lived in tribes throughout the region.

It was the Europeans who decided to break it up arbitrarily to to divvy it up.

So when they came from these different regions, from the mountains, from the coasts, from the, you know, the flatlands, and they came to these slave dungeons.

They didn't speak the same language.

They didn't have the same culture.

They were standing next to people they couldn't even communicate with, and broke the families up and broke the families up.

And, yeah, yeah, it's I think that's part of the things that people don't really realize when they were placed on that ship.

When the ship came over, it stopped in Brazil and dropped off.

It stopped in Haiti and dropped off.

Is that in the Carolinas?

In Virginia and dropped off.

Right.

And then we turned it for more and we turned for more.

And when they dropped off, a wife was dropped off in Brazil.

A son was dropped off in Haiti, the daughter was dropped off in America.

To never see your family or to be able to trace your family ever again, that right there when you get to the door of no return, I think that's when the reality hits for you to actually understand and comprehend and put it together.

That forever, their lives are forever changed and destroyed.

Basically, I have a picture of my son helping my mother and my two daughters and my fiancee through the, the a door had female dungeon.

I just have had the camera just snapped it.

And that's one of the pictures I look at all the time.

You know, and to know that those castles, they were built by Africans.

Yeah.

So they built their own captivity.

And I'm going to say this and talk about religion a little bit earlier within the physical structure of these slave dungeons was a church.

And, and I stood at one.

And you still see the Portuguese sign for the church.

And I couldn't imagine having worship.

And singing praise the same time.

You hear the screams of those who are captive, like there are certain moments that you're standing in, you're witnessing and you're feeling that it's just unimaginable.

And that's why we're going back in January.

We're going back because I have more questions.

I have books I'm going to read and go back and ask more questions.

If means January 2026.

Yes.

Anyway.

2026.

Absolutely.

And it's just so important that we go back and everyone goes back and understands the history.

And I just beg and plead with the listening community to not allow history to be repeating, repeat it.

But but more importantly, don't let history be banned.

Don't let context be banned.

Ask yourself, why is it so important that certain narratives be taught in other narratives be erased?

If you can really make sense of that, then you can understand why it's so important that we learn for ourselves about our past, and more importantly, how to prevent atrocities from happening in the future.

Right.

Let me try to squeeze in.

Let's see Judith in Rochester on the phone.

Hi, Judith.

Go ahead.

Well, I just called to thank you so much for today's programs.

The one that I'm hearing now is just so beautiful and so hopeful.

And your prior discussions are all so beautiful and hopeful and especially in the light of yesterday's experience.

I at first I expected that there would be a discussion about that, but I am so grateful because it was so wise and intelligent and hopeful to have today's discussion.

It just gives me an entirely different perspective, and I'm so grateful for your speakers and for for your doing this today.

Thank you.

Judith.

That is a very generous and kind phone call.

Thank you.

I know our guests appreciate it.

And I'll just say, you know, we are tomorrow we are going to talk about the inauguration and a lot of issues going on, and there's going to be a lot to talk about there.

so every day will be a little different.

That's how it always is.

On connections.

But we decided that these conversations today were too important to move.

So that's why they're here.

And I'm glad that they are resonating in powerful ways due to thank you.

Joel writes in to say, visiting places outside Europe actually starts to debunk the idea that Western civilization worked from Europe outwards, when in fact, Western civilization worked from the outside in need to do better than require Western Civ as the be all end all more African science and math and culture influences Europe than the other way around.

so that's from from Joel talking about debunking ideas.

And let's, let's close on something that at least is I mean, this has been powerful and I hope it is going to stay with us the way it's staying with Judith and other listeners.

But I, I want to know, who is the Jack dude who you're it was it your son?

There's this picture where he's like, whoa, this is that was at the naming ceremony.

And, that was also like a Joe.

I was born on a Sunday, and so my African given name was, was was Kwasi, and, and that was where, again, my mother, my kids, myself, legal authors, rites of passage and, are giving a name, for us to connect back with.

So whenever we go back home, there's a term makes Aqaba, which is means welcome home.

every time we go back, you know, we have a place to to listen to ourselves.

And I know it's not exactly where I am.

I just came from, or I can track it, but it gives you at least a place that you can start to pass down into generations, that there is a place for you outside of, you know, the stories that you've been told.

That ceremony looks great.

It was great.

Yeah, it's absolutely great.

Absolutely great.

and before we go here at Joy Jackson's, people want to get in touch with AJ excursions.

How do they find you for a future trip?

Find me on Facebook, AJ excursion or a Julia Jackson and just get in contact with me and I will gladly, gladly put everything that you love.

This work I do, I really, I you can see it.

You're helping a lot of people see the world.

AJ Jackson, owner of AJ excursions a pleasure.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me, Sean Nelms, thank you for sharing your family's story.

What an amazing thing.

Yeah, I tell you, if you go on Facebook, look me up and you can see the pictures in the story and consider, Michael links with Torchlight Tours.

He's over in Ghana, and he's taken more people to to see and show his beautiful country.

Thanks everyone.

We'll talk to you tomorrow.

This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management, or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience.

Any rebroadcast or use in another medium without expressed written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the connections link.

At WXXI news.org.