From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour is made in Rochester's newest bar.

It's called Easy Sailor, a tiki themed bar.

And as my colleague Patrick Haskin notes, it aims to carry the tropical vibes and tiki culture that many tiki fans know so well.

But then again, what exactly is tiki culture?

Rochester will be home to a tiki festival later this summer.

And while the general vibe is tropical sun splashed, tiki culture is kind of amalgam of of many different ideas.

And I thought that NPR exploration was helpful.

They spoke some years ago to food historian Ken Albo about it.

Here's some of NPR story now.

The tiki trend didn't really take off until World War two.

Al Bello says when young men deployed to the wars, Pacific theater were exposed for the first time to the South Pacific, to Tonga, to Fiji and Hawaii.

They developed a taste for the tropical, which they passed on to the rest of the nation.

It was a weird moment in history when the whole country became fascinated with the South Pacific.

Al Bello says, just because it was unknown and exotic, Rodgers and Hammerstein even came out with a fun musical.

Tiki bars and restaurants became wildly popular, Bella says, though they made no pretense to being authentically Polynesian, the menus tended to feature this mishmash of pan-Asian fusion dishes, he says.

Many tiki bars, oddly enough, served Chinese food, mostly because back in the 50s, Americans probably didn't know or care much for authentically Polynesian foods.

Chinese food was familiar, but still a bit exotic to some Americans, so they must have just decided, well, that's close enough, Abella says.

And although tiki cocktails often feature tropical fruits and flavors, they're entirely American inventions, he says.

Trader Vic's claims credit for inventing the now famous Mai Tai at its original location in Oakland, California.

End quote.

So as the Rochester tiki scene grows, we'll talk about what that means for the people who are growing it, maybe looking forward to the festival or opening the newest bar in Rochester.

And my colleague Patrick Hosking, arts reporter for Citi magazine, doing great work there.

Thank you for being on the mic as well.

Thank you.

Do you still need me here?

Can I come back in an hour?

Well, that's up to you.

Maybe you can go get a mai tai.

I may go get it.

Might I, I might, I know I.

Listen, you're doing great work for city.

You're doing great on this microphone.

We're going to have a fun hour, I hope, talking about a wide range of things here.

And some of the partners with easy Sailor Dan Herzog is here.

Partner and beverage director at Easy Sailor.

Welcome to you.

Thanks for having me.

Welcome to Kelly McDonald, partner and executive chef at Easy sell it well.

Thank you.

Congratulations to both of you.

Although, as Patrick and I were asking before a like, when are you starting?

Two weeks.

How long you've been saying two weeks, Dan?

Oh, about six weeks now.

So sometime in July.

Easy, sailor.

Yes.

All right.

And we're really glad to have, the Telenor's Endowed professor of history at the University of the Pacific Canal back on the line with us, the food historian himself.

Ken, welcome to the program.

Thank you for making time for us.

Thank you for having me.

Hi.

So it's great to have Ken, and we're going to have a good conversation that, you know, I want to say from the outset here.

And, Ken, while I'm sure we'll talk about this, Patrick and I were talking before the program, I think it's okay to ask about what are the roots of this culture.

Like, what does it mean?

What does it borrow from, what does it sample?

What is kind of a localized spin?

And I want to try to do that kind of fearlessly and, because I will put my cards on the table.

I, I'm sort of a lost Lake nerd.

I like, you know, I like tiki culture.

I don't have any tiki mugs at home, but I love cocktails in this, in this realm.

And I think, I think it's okay to ask these questions, but, have you become a tiki fan yourself, Patrick?

Well, the main thing, when I met with Dan and Kelly, as well as Erika and the other partners, earlier to do the story, the thing that came up was escapism.

And, for the radio listeners, there's some great patterned shirts in the room with us that are that vibe as well for tea.

And I think that's what was so interesting, about thinking about Tiki here in Rochester, which is, you know, a place where we get what is I think I put this in my story, but like 160, 865 days of sunlight per year.

So any sort of splash of that, is, is nice.

And, you know, for me personally, like, I, I'm not I'm certainly not a tiki connoisseur.

But I, it's interesting to think about places that can pop up in our city, in our community, that can offer what we can't get from vitamin D, and a lot of that is community based.

But just from the, you know, even just the vibe is kind of nice.

So that's that's interests me for sure.

Yeah.

I if you're watching on YouTube to Patrick's point there, you can see it.

But you guys are going to be decked out this way in January, aren't you.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Absolutely.

I mean that's that that's the vibe.

So in our second half hour, we're going to drill a little bit more into what's going to be on the menu, how to kind of get to know Tiki better if you don't.

We're going to talk about some of the popular cocktails, and we're going to talk about what's coming up later this summer, not only in July with Easy Sailor, but also with the growing scene, the festival coming up.

I want to ask our guests in studio, and then we're going to talk to Ken a little bit about this.

Just in general, when you think about tiki culture, I mean, Dan, how do you explain it?

Like when someone says, oh, I don't really know it very well.

Like, what's it about?

What do you say?

I mean, I guess I fall back on kind of these two founding principles of, of tiki culture in that, escapism being one of them.

And the other is that more is more.

Right.

There's a lot of layered extravagance.

It's kind of a a niche bit of hedonism.

And it's, I believe, like a almost a strictly manufactured culture.

Right.

Like it was not any one thing.

It didn't happen organically by itself.

It isn't like a a culture of people in a place.

It is a an experience in a, you know, 50 by 50 square foot room.

And then you walk out in the parking lot and it's daylight and you're back in, you know, Oakland, California.

So it's kind of a, a, a culture of drawing you out of your day to day life.

And making you feel like you're on a mini vacation, you know, in a in a three hour stretch with a good drink.

Yeah, with a lot of rum.

And, I don't know, trying new things.

Tiki culture is predominantly nerds that are open to new experiences.

It's people that, like, take a deep dive on something and and really fall into it, but aren't just going with the, the safety thing.

So I mean, if you're watching on YouTube, you probably just caught me looking over it.

So Dan says it's about nerds jumping into experience.

Why did I just look right at you guys like that?

You I mean, you you physically looked at me like, That's Evan Evans, a nerd who's up in a new experience.

I was like, That's Patrick.

No, I mean, I think that's an interesting way to describe the scene.

Do you want to take take a stab at there, Kelly?

Yeah.

So, I mean, as far as it goes for, like, even the food base of, like, tiki, we're going to be trying to use, like, different fusions of layering our flavors there and whatnot, and like, with that, as, like, it was made up, like, there isn't necessarily too much of a background of tiki food base.

It is like taking some styles of like Cantonese cooking and then putting an American spin on it and whatnot.

So I think like with, it is kind of like, a culture that is, you know, kind of like made up, but we use it for the idea of escapism to get away from normal, like day to day things that, you know, maybe get you down and whatnot.

But it is like it is what you kind of make it type thing, you know, it gets me down.

How many days of sunlight do we get a year?

I see I was rereading my story and I wrote in 165, and I definitely got that from a reputable source.

I just don't remember who it was.

You didn't have to include that, though.

Yeah, but it is a but we all know it to be true.

So I was like, yeah, but I'm thinking about it.

It's like, yeah, are you kidding?

If you ask the average Rochester and they're probably like, we probably get 100, 100 days of sunlight a year.

So you can understand maybe the desire for escapism, but but some of that, the roots of that culture.

I want to bring in Kendall Bhalla, who's you know, I was reading, off the top, you know, going back to that NPR conversation that you did, Ken.

And trying to understand how this came together.

What what is the story of Tiki to you?

If you were to try to explain how you see the culture, what's the answer?

Well, I think we have to look at the roots of where this whole idea comes from.

The word tiki is Maori.

It comes from New Zealand, Aotearoa and, I think it's important to remember that the United States was a colonial power in the end of the 19th century, and we still have a few possessions in, in, Polynesia.

And there was this idea that, you know, this was a tropical Paradise.

We could own it.

We could use it as we like, men, when their with the expectation that they could easily sleep with the women.

And that's part of the whole colonial experience.

And I think that lent this sort of dirty, dangerous, you know, air to the whole idea of visiting the South Pacific.

And of course, many people did during World War Two, of course, to, to fight.

But I think when it, when it finally came back, it was an entirely reinvented imaginary, as you've been mentioning, that, combined, you know, Chinese food, Cantonese food and Caribbean drinks and hula skirts and tikis, you know, the little pendants that people were tiki mugs and drinks that were invented.

But it's a Hollywood thing.

You know, it's done.

The Beachcomber really invented that whole esthetic, essentially.

And it called on, of course, in Trader Vic's as well.

And many, many imitations.

But I think the, the part that, you know, it's kind of sticky really in the whole question is that what if you actually came from Tonga or Samoa or Fiji or a place where this culture is supposedly represented?

Now, I can imagine you're being offended by it, by the kitsch value of the whole thing, because it's not it's not that it's not real, but it kind of demeans that culture or it certainly doesn't respect, you know, what it really is.

And of course, the very fact that it's not people from that culture performing it and putting it on with this very tongue in cheek kind of kitschy, you know, take that really, I think I think that might be construed as really offensive, you know, as a matter of cultural appropriation, even though it's not real.

I think that's the very point, is that, you know, imagine if we all dressed up as Native Americans and had a fake powwow, you know, it's it's on the same level, a fake luau.

And I just don't think many people really think that through very, very well.

So can but can you, can you nod to some of the, let me put it this way.

Can you and try to enjoy this culture that is this kind of fusion amalgam mostly made up of kind of borrowed element culture in a way that is more respectful or reverent or not just, I mean, I mean, the kitsch is part of the idea, of course.

I mean, like, we'll talk about that, but I don't know people who are doing it to demean.

I think you're implying that you think it can be inherently so, but but can you do it in a way that is respectful or at least nodding in a way that, is fun and not meant to be problematic, colonial, etc.?

Can you do that?

Well, here your your own intentions are irrelevant in this case.

You could you could say, I really love, you know, Polynesian culture and I'm going to give it a good shot and not be disrespectful.

But but what's really relevant is the people who come from that culture, what they think, you know, you could I don't think anyone, you know, on a modern tiki bar is intending to insult Polynesian people, right?

For sure at all.

But they may perceive it that way.

And so so it's, you know, this entire question of cultural appropriation when someone takes a music or a style of, clothing or a food and makes profit off of it, and the people who can't make profit from it or who don't, then that's that really is appropriated.

I mean, that's, that's just taking a culture, whether it's real or not is beside the point.

If I'm opening up a tiki bar and making good money, someone from Tonga maybe can't get that loan from a bank to open a brick and mortar restaurant.

And so, so can you see from their perspective that would really be, stealing in a way, even though it's not real.

It is a kind of cultural theft.

He had.

No.

But that's the part of this conversation that I think is a little, I get hung up on the idea a little bit that this is a culture, that it's not one thing Tiki borrows in different directions and then it adds different ideas.

Every bar is a little different.

Every, you know, probably every city that has tiki is a little different.

So, I hear what you're saying, and I think every listener, every viewer is going to come to their own conclusions about it.

And I, I think it's valuable to ask these questions and explore these ideas, even for someone like me, like who really likes Tiki, I mean, like, that's.

So that's why we're doing it.

And then the second half hour, as I mentioned, we're going to kind of go a little deeper into what's going on in the local scene.

But, but is it different because it's not one culture that it's either borrowing from or referencing that it's it's different elements amalgamated in a way that I think most people would say is meant to be, if anything celebrates and not, trying to take away from or make fun of.

I mean, I think people have fun and not make fun.

It is not intended to make fun of them.

And I think if you thought of sort of comparable usage, I mean, it's meant to be Polynesian, whether they get it right or wrong.

But imagine if I were to set up a Japanese geisha house.

We lost Ken for a second.

Rob I'm not hearing Ken.

No.

Oh.

It just froze.

So.

Hey, Ken, if you can hear us there, let's kind of rerack the connection.

And, so, Patrick, what comes to mind for you first hear hearing some of, you know, Ken's points.

It's interesting because I think like the further.

So now we're talking about these first tiki bars opening in the late 1930s.

And then, as you mentioned, Evan, we're talking about sort of a post-World War Two boom.

So we're talking about almost a century ago when the first tiki bar start to happen.

So I, I really start to think about, this idea that like, which I think is true not just in, like food and beverage culture and restaurant culture, but also in music, a lot of different art, which is that I think the further away you get from sort of the initial, blending of culture or kind of whatever, invention or in this case might be sort of blending, but, the the further away you get from that, I think it becomes difficult for folks who are doing, who are doing their own take on whether it is Tiki, whether it's a musical, form that you know, could definitely has like appropriate of roots.

I think it becomes really hard the further away you get from that.

To have that be as present, because I just think in time as we've been talking about, it does adapt and it becomes kind of its own thing and everyone else puts their spin on it.

And so I think that's where I think a lot of what, what I think of when I think of this is like a lot of it is happened to be, celebratory as we're kind of talking about, and the way that that can, I think play out is from a place of joy and kind of celebration.

Although the roots of whatever might be being very tricky and always kind of having to be there, but the further you get away from it, I just think it becomes less present.

Yeah, that's kind of what I've been thinking.

Sure.

So let's let's ask Dan and Kelly how they feel about that.

So Dan Herzog, you've been hearing some of Ken's points or what do you make of that?

Yeah.

I definitely think that Ken has some, some good points that have a lot of historical precedent with tiki stuff.

Right.

This is a a thing that's been brought up for a long time with great, purpose to it.

Right?

Like, it does matter.

It is a valid point.

And I do think that you can celebrate these cultures while still doing your homework and knowing what is culturally significant and what to what you have no place borrowing from and what is just, banana leaf.

Right?

And I think that if you, if we invited a friend that I met on the internet from Papua New Guinea into easy sailor, they'd have no idea what where they were like.

It isn't trying to imitate their culture.

It's such a mishmash of different places.

They'd be like, oh, this is kind of cool.

Where's that from?

What's this thing?

It's it's such a hodgepodge of different, you know, elements that it's I think, clearly not trying to imitate any one or borrow any one culture's, you know, background.

Yeah.

I wrote a piece, on liquor.com written by Caroline Hatchet.

About, a bartender named, Ari discussed guess who grew up in Honolulu and basically said in, in her view, as a New York City bartender, her main concern was, if you are trying ardently to say that you are just Polynesian culture and you don't know Polynesian culture, that's a problem.

If you are trying to have a fun amalgamation, that's a different thing.

And so Ari's point to her colleagues in the industry was, you know, just be careful on overselling that.

You know, your any one culture and recognize that it is you are not any one culture, and you would be misrepresenting if you if you were trying to claim that claim what you are, which is and then and then she basically maybe learn a little more too about different cultures.

But to your point, it isn't just when you say, if someone came in from Papua New Guinea, they would know where they are because it's not meant to be any one place.

One thing, it easy sailor.

Yeah.

And I think that credit is a huge part of that.

Right.

Like, Kelly and I will never have any claim to credibility or try to for any authenticity of a South Pacific Islander or Polynesian culture or anything.

But if RIT wants to put together a South Pacific Islander, you know, craft club.

Sick.

Great.

Can you do you guys want to, like, put a stall up and and sell your stuff?

You're like, that's awesome.

That has a claim to credibility and should be celebrated.

So I think that we can establish a space and a menu and slept together.

Different cooking techniques and recipes from half of the world without, claiming any of it is is borrowing someone's authentic, you know, historical culture.

This isn't how your grandma cooked it.

This is, you know, a 50 year old, oven that didn't exist historically.

And we are applying a new technique to a squid for like, it's it's such a, an amalgam of different things.

Okay.

What do you think, Kelly?

I think going in with, it's like everyone has kind of a different vision or interpretation of, like, the.

And with working in food culture and being and it throughout my years of like schooling with other people and talking about it, the great thing about food is that you get to like, you know, not steal it, but borrow different techniques from different cultures and like, you know, it's like taking like, oh, tacos, like, well, I can't really make those because I don't want to make anyone mad necessarily, but it's more of like in the technique of, like what it means to you.

How are you interpreting it, how are you using it, and how are you bringing it to your consumer?

So it's like in that point, you're now like doing an homage to what you learned and what is inspiring to you.

And that's how I'm going with this is like I, you know, not Polynesian.

I don't have any background in that.

But, you know, learning the culture and whatnot and inspires me to take bits and pieces of that to bring to my plates.

And it's, you know, doing and using different techniques for it, which also makes it very, very fun to do.

I think setting the stage for Tiki was also, a fundamental change in human, supply chains.

Right?

It happened because all of a sudden you could rapidly move those things halfway across the world and eat them while they were fresh.

And it didn't happen before that because it would go bad or spoil or never get there before.

And we've hit this the second wave now, I think kind of following cocktails exploding in the 1920s, tiki things coming in the 1940s through the 60s after that.

And then in the 2000s, cocktails took off again.

Tiki chased it again because we can much more rapidly move the goods and ideas.

So, you know, it no longer has to be.

Oh, I took a rice recipe from a website in Bangkok and slapped, you know, something from next door on it I can now take.

Oh well, can we do Australian lamb with that?

Like you can the the range of ingredients has grown now.

I mean that's actually a really salient point.

I mean what we can do with different ingredients, different goods from around the world and the speed of which you can pull them together has absolutely changed what we are able to create on menus around the world.

I take that point.

So let me just ask one more question on this point.

And, you know, so I'm not doing any PR for easy salad.

They're going to be fine.

They're going to be open in two weeks.

Everybody.

It every two weeks.

They're going to be fine on Park Avenue.

They don't need my PR.

But I do want to ask both of you, you know, how would you explain the difference between a culture that is either mocking or derogatory versus celebratory?

What do you think, Dan?

I mean, I think that it's really the giving credit where it's due, and it's, Yeah, that that claim to authenticity.

Right.

Like, if, if you are, if you're moving to Rochester, New York from New Zealand and you have and you want to open a shop and sell, you know, your family recipe and you're open, you know, you're selling food and drinks and I don't even know there because the cocktails and the cocktails and tiki things are mostly Caribbean.

Rum is a global spirit, but.

There's cocktail bars in New Zealand.

There is kind of American style cocktail bars.

But I digress.

If you want to, you know, import New Zealand Sauvignon blanc and sell, you know, food that you grew up with.

That's awesome.

So New Zealand food opening New Zealand restaurant Rochester, that'd be really cool.

It wouldn't be a tiki thing by itself.

It's not a it doesn't have the escapism and the more is more, you know, eight different ingredients, eight different garnishes.

Wow.

Factor thing on top of it.

So I think that is a that would be a celebration.

That would be importing an authentic cultural experience and showing it off, which is great if you're, you know, if I'm trying to open that place, that's a problem.

I didn't grow up in New Zealand.

I don't know anything about.

I know very little about that.

You know, culture in any of the world.

So yeah, I think we should, as a society kind of reject that guy.

Okay.

Kelly, how do you see it?

I mean, I see it as far as, like there is a certain, you know, type of attitude and vibe.

Like, if you're trying to be like, I feel like a little bit more like over the top, and you're not necessarily educating yourself fully on it, then it can come off as being a little bit more of like, you're you're just, you know, making fun and whatnot.

Like with this, it's like I'm, you know, going through educating myself and have been for the past few years now of like trying out different like tiki bars and like asking people like, what does tiki mean to them?

And like, also just like taking points of like giving, you know, like where all of the credit is due.

It's like, I didn't come up with this.

I, you know, learned a technique.

And then I made it my own fusion in my own feeling.

And with that is just like giving more of a serious tone of like it is celebratory, but it is also like it's meaningful to me to.

Yeah.

And I guess we mean that in like, a, specific way, you know, it's not oh, this is the general culture that this is taken.

Who's the guy?

Right.

If you have a if you're lucky enough to have, like, an authentically carved tiki totem, there is a guy that carved that thing, and it was made in the last hundred and 50 years.

He's got a name, right?

Like, know who it is.

Tell people when they ask about it, talk about it.

Well, it make sure we've got Ken back.

I'm gonna grab a phone call from Sally in Rochester.

Who's on the phone?

Hey, Sally.

Go ahead.

Hi, Evan.

And guess I may be one of those unusual experts on this topic for your show today, because one of the best jobs I ever had was when I started this work center on the sneaky tiki Tour, 1977.

La mirada in the Florida Keys.

I lived there about half my life, so I knew the culture there, and I was an offshoot of the brick and mortar.

Or should we just call it, Palm and Frond Tiki Bar?

And I was on a resort.

That sneaky tiki, was unpeeled.

It was built over an old golf cart, and I would open about 2:00 on the beach, and then I would motor over to the charter dock when the boats came in about 4 to 430.

Had a blast.

I had to load and unload the tiki bar every shift, and I worked every day and it was, a great pleasure to roll out onto the beach under the palm and get right behind that snoring tourists on a lounger.

And then I would take out my bullhorn and say, in the kindest way I could, the tiki bar is now open, and it was fun to watch people just jump up from their nap and see a tiki bar where one had not existed when they started their siesta.

And that was in the 1970s.

I opened the bar in 1977, almost 50 years ago.

I know, and I don't like to date anything these days.

Sally, thank you for the phone call and for some of the memories there before we, we get our break here and then we'll get some feedback from listeners.

We're going to talk about the upcoming festival.

Are you guys part of the festival coming up?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

All right, so what's up with festival coming up?

Ken, what do you want to make sure is on our mind as we think about Tiki going forward, whether you're, you know, whether you're going to Chicago, whether you're in Rochester or wherever you're experiencing, you know, what do you want us to be thinking about?

Well, I want you to think about what the tiki is.

I mean, it's a it's a religious figure.

It's the first human.

It's it's all image to the ancestors.

So I think a comparable thing would be like drinking cocktails out of a crucified Jesus mug or, you know, or Moses receiving the Ten Commandments.

But, I mean, that's it's part of a religion.

Now, obviously, that they chose it as an esthetic style, but that I don't think there's any way you can, you know, use a tiki image without it actually being offensive for people who are of that religion.

And that's just, you know, that's that.

And, you know, the other thing, I think it's very important to say, let me say this about cuisine.

I'm I'm not against, you know, cuisines mixing and borrowing and mashing things together.

Obviously cuisines have to evolve in order for there to be, you know, any movement or any development.

I think if you say, here's the way something should be made, this is the authentic way.

It can never be made any other way.

Well, then it dies and it becomes the museum piece.

And I understand Tiki has really nothing to do with authentic Polynesian cooking.

Otherwise you'd be serving poi and you know, other, you know, things like that.

But but I think it is interesting that Tiki culture really doesn't say, here's what should be in a tiki bar.

You know, it should have pupu platters, it should have mai tais that it's actually completely malleable and refers back to nothing really.

It doesn't really refer back to the Polynesian.

It refers back to Hollywood, back to, you know, that era of the, the Beachcomber.

And I think that's fine.

I, you know, I'm not I don't want to come off as saying, you know, we shouldn't have tiki bars.

That's so offensive.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm really just just being cognizant of that, people that this is someone's culture that is being used in a way that it certainly originally was appropriate and, and colonial and, and destructive in many ways.

Also, Ken, thank you for making time for the program.

I appreciate your perspective very much and your generous to to give that time.

And thanks for being here.

Thank you.

That's Canal Bella, who is a professor of history at the University of Pacific.

He is a food historian.

And, you know that last point that Ken made before we take our only break here, I think is a big dividing line.

Patrick, to me, listening to Dan and Kelly talk about what they're doing and trying to be thoughtful and saying, you know, understanding the history that Ken's talking about while also saying, how do we celebrate?

How do we bring a fusion of cultures?

How do we do it in a way that doesn't denigrate, but celebrates the big and at least maybe that's the optimistic consumer in my mind, because I like what they do.

But I hear what Ken saying, and I also see that difference.

That dividing line makes sense.

I do too, and I was interesting because Tiki, because it is such an amalgam of what we've been talking about.

A lot of people have taken it to many different places, like there's like this doomed tiki movement that was kind of a series of pop ups that were sort of goth infused, which to me, I which I don't know anything about, but I'm and I don't want to I don't want to associate this without knowing, but I'm like, if I think of a goth tiki thing, drinking out of a crucifix actually sounds very goth.

So I'm like, there are lots of different ways that like iconography I think can shift.

And it's like, I think that the, the colonial, implications of that are always very important to be considered like, unquestionably.

But I do think as it's sort of what I said before, as things continue to evolve as, you know, as, tiki can go goth as lots of different things can get introduced, I think, like, you know, it becomes a yeah, it becomes a challenging thing of keeping in mind, how much to consider in the, in the moment, in the experience.

Or like how much you want to trust folks like Dan and Kelly and their partners who you can kind of assume like have done that homework and I guess are placing that authenticity in the right.

Yeah.

Or if someone from any part of the world walked into Easy Sailor or any place, would they feel comfortable and excited to be there?

That's a big question, right?

Like and the answer that our guests in the studio have it is they better be I mean like, yeah, that's that's what you're going for it.

You want an atmosphere where everyone feels excited to be there and everyone wants to be able to celebrate them.

So that's part of what Tiki Week is going to be.

Is it Tiki?

Oh, a full week.

It's the Tiki Festival coming up.

It's like a partial week.

Is that right?

It is seven days.

Seven days is it is, billed as the Rochester Tiki Week.

All right.

So we're going to talk about Tiki Week when we come back here.

Had a couple questions about, Margaret and to say, when I was a kid, the Aloha Restaurant and Lounge on Monroe Avenue was the epitome of tiki culture in Rochester, complete with music, food, drinks with little umbrellas.

I have fond memories of the fun and colorful atmosphere at the Aloha.

Glad to see the tiki culture is being revived.

I don't know if it ever went fully away.

I don't maybe it I don't know.

Is it revived?

Is this a revival?

The 90s were a dark time.

It may be, I guess, hitting it's version of a renaissance, right?

Like if it's coming back, we have pop ups coming up.

Like all around Rochester.

People are getting excited about it.

And, and, you know, a few days of sunshine will help that.

So, so if you do need a little bit of tiki cocktail ideas for the few days of sunshine that Patrick says we get in the whole year, if you want a list of, Tiki, whether it's zombies and more, we're going to hit that on the way on on the other side, we'll tell you more about, the festival coming up.

And in just two weeks.

Two weeks only easy sailor is going to open.

They'll tell you more about that.

So a lot more with Patrick Hosking, my colleague at and an arts reporter for City magazine.

And also partners from easy Sailor, Dan Herzog.

Kelly McDonald with us here.

We're coming right back on connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Tuesday on the next connections, we talked to Iranian-Americans about what has happened in Iran in recent days and how they view the future of Iran, the leadership of Iran now, and where they want to see that country go with direction.

They hope it will take that conversation is coming up Tuesday.

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We were just talking about the various drinks in the world of Tiki Patrick asking, I mean, this is not your expertise, right?

This is not my speech.

Although I will say, I went to a, a location that I won't disclose because it was not easy, sailor, over the weekend.

And I did, given that open.

It's been two weeks.

This is true.

But, but, you know, just to keep the vibes good in this room, I went to a place and I ordered a mocktail recently, and then it came actually in a little pig, sort of porcelain pig wearing a flower necklace.

And that was exhilarating for me because it was, coconut milk and, and mint and lime and a little chili and, that's the closest that I've been to Tiki in some time.

So if that tells you.

Yeah, yeah, I don't really have the.

It's funny, I wrote this story, but I'm like, do I really have the credentials?

I don't know.

I guess that's why I did it was to learn, you know, to try to come into my own version of, the pattern shirt.

And I think that might be, I think we're saying zero proof cocktail instead of market.

I could be wrong.

I think probably people.

I mean, here's my thing with that and I. Yeah, yeah.

My my quick note on that is I'm just not going to say that it's too many syllables you like.

Right?

I mean when I say mocktail and I did I did say that at the restaurant and it did get a little bit of like, like zero proof.

And I was like, I understand.

But so for clarity sake, so that, you know what I mean?

I'm just going to say this, I mean, just phonetically, right?

If the bar is loud and we had a bunch of static back to your headphone right now, and I'm trying to hear you and you shatter mocktail, you start with the loud noise and I can pick up on that.

But if you say, can I get a zero proof cat?

I've already lost.

Yeah.

I'd say that's important.

I'm talking directly to the source right here.

Okay.

Person on the other side of the bar.

If they say that that's what I'm doing, I take up the torch.

I definitely hearing it take up the torch for the maximum.

Okay, so for reference for the audience who may not realize that in tiki culture that they've had some cocktails in this realm, what are the most popular?

The most popular tiki cocktail is the 1944 trader Rick Mai Tai.

For sure.

That's the one.

Probably the most accessible is a jungle bird.

You can probably get a jungle bird in 80% of the bars in America.

What's in a jungle bird?

A jungle bird is a kind of bitter sour.

It is a blend of rums, lime juice, Campari being kind of the defining ingredient.

Plenty of pineapple juice, a little bit of sugar.

The Campari hue makes the whole thing like light bright pink.

So it is a pretty bitter.

Campari is pretty bitter.

But there's also, four times the amount of pineapple juice in there, as there is Campari.

So the whole thing balances out and it's a good example of what makes a tiki drink a tiki drink, in that it is enough acids and sugars and, you know, you can get those from any source.

But typically a variety of fruit juices blended together will give you enough of like a backbone to blend in a heavy amount of spices and or bittering agents being Campari or Italian Amari and you know, on on.

But, you take extremely intense flavors and then make them palatable with a lot of sugar and a lot of, acidity.

Is a standard classic daiquiri in the tiki world.

I would happily sell a daiquiri in a tiki bar.

I would not call it a tiki cocktail.

Okay, but but you'll make it.

And by the way, this is going to be really pedantic, but I'm just going to do it.

Can I, can I be pedantic for a second?

So I love a classic daiquiri.

I've been at restaurants in the city where I order decorating.

They're like, like the strawberry slush thing.

And I'm like, no, I like just, you know, it takes a while to, to retrain ourselves because a lot of people grew up hearing daiquiri, and it was in this blended drink world that was in that very tropical.

I'm on vacation.

I'm getting like a blended thing.

That's why I asked, like, hey, like I said during the break, before the break, the 90s were a dark time.

There was a whole this there was a whole series of, you know, the, the TGI chili biz, system of restaurants that, that put out, you know, what is the most shelf stable version of the thing we can make?

How can you turn this shelf stable thing into a palatable drink?

And it's make it too thick, too sweet, stabilized with a bunch of gums.

And how do you put that in a drink?

Get it in a blender, double it down with ice and just make it a frosty.

And that they can taste good.

A frozen strawberry daiquiri.

Delicious treat, but it is not a decorate daiquiri yet again.

The the.

I am certainly one of the the people in my field that that does not believe that bartending is an art form.

But if we were to give the the artist his due, the daiquiri was made by one bartender one time in a hotel in Cuba.

Why do you not think it's an art form?

I'm just making the floor sticky, man.

No, no, I mean, the difference in a quarter ounce could be the difference in balance.

And.

And what makes an enjoyable drink and what and something that you don't want to drink at all.

It's a it's a really fun job and it's a great opportunity for like creative self-expression.

But you make art to last or be experienced.

And I don't know.

I mean, there's just not that much work that goes into it.

You have a right to be wrong.

It's a free country.

I'm going to defend your profession more than you are.

No, I mean, like, look, whether you want to split the difference and say it's not art, but the the the technical expertise, it really matters because, I am constantly amazed at how poor my homemade just cocktails are compared to a friend, one of my very good friends or bartenders who know what they're doing.

And I'm like, how is this so perfect?

The balance.

It's like a marble.

And then I do this at home and it's like, oh, like, what did I do?

You know, did I miss it by a quarter ounce?

Did I over squeeze a lime?

Did I over squeeze a lemon, you know.

So anyway, now we're way off on off the track, but whatever.

You're an artist.

Okay, so, what's in a zombie?

A zombie is 5.5oz of rum.

Grenadine.

That is, you know, a contrary to popular belief, a pomegranate sirup, a cherry sirup.

Lime juice.

Yeah.

I mean, it's it's basically, just a scant amount of just enough of a overly rich sirup and a little bit of lime juice, and a a strong blend of rums that you can barely taste, but different kinds of rums.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And because any zombie at that quantity would overwhelm you in one direction, right?

Yeah.

By blending your rums together and choosing different rum as a category should really have, you know, a dozen different subcategories and kind of does.

But it we can nerd out about that later.

If you choose different rums of different viscosities and flavor profiles, they'll hit your mouth in different points and therefore it doesn't really like all punch up front.

You can get them, get it to layer and like hit your palate across seven seconds after you've taken a sip.

Yeah, that doesn't sound artistic at all.

So yeah, you can check the thing and and not talent to get to that.

I mean, the the original zombie right has a pretty hard rule that you can have two zombies and then you're cut off.

Well, I would hope so.

One for most of us.

Yeah, yeah.

And what's in a mai tai?

A mai tai relies heavily on, Or shot or shot is a an almond sirup.

One of those, borrowed ingredients traditionally made is a a very protein rich, heavy, kind of like meal replacement.

Like, we would now use those, like, protein, go-gurt tube things.

Yeah, it's a, it's an almond sirup that has enough sugar that you can kind of, like, sustain yourself on a on a day trip.

So orgeat lime juice, dry cure soundtrack as I was an orange liqueur.

The one I prefer is based on cognac.

It's basically like orange rinds shoved in cognac.

And a blend of rum.

So that blend of rum traditionally is a kind of heavier pot still.

Jamaican rum.

And and agricole.

Agricole is are like those light, grassy, rums.

Probably the most I ever blew up my kitchen is when I made orgeat at home.

It can be messy.

Oh, my gosh.

The learning curve is steep.

The cheese, cheesecloth and squeezing.

But worth it.

Although every time I would walk by the fridge, I'd be like, I might just need a little square root of Georgia.

It's so delicious.

It is.

It's.

And it's a homemade is a different level.

But I've done that one time.

I know the discipline to do it again.

So when I look at all the different directions, even.

Kelly, will you rescue us and talk a little bit about the menu that you're planning coming up here?

Yeah, absolutely.

So with, like, building out the kitchen, we are going to have a two walk system, for doing some pickups.

We'll be doing some frying in them and whatnot.

And then, we're doing a robot, a yaki, Japanese style grill.

So that'll be, based off of, manual, like charcoal.

And going from there, a lot of the menu build is going to be doing some, like, quick pickup stuff that's like coming off the grill.

So the it's, you know, some things on sticks and some things that are like more salad featured, but like coming from a little bit of, like inspiration from around the world.

So I've got pulling things from like Myanmar and then even going all the way over to like the Philippines doing some Caribbean stuff, a little bit of Polynesian, some Cantonese background, and then even French Creole.

Because at this point, you know, when you're, doing a muse of everything that is, like, inspiring you and you can give it that kind of tiki flair and give it that little inspiration punch into a dish that where it makes sense for you.

So.

So that's all coming your way?

Easy, sailor, which is going to be open in two weeks in Pine Park Avenue.

Where on Park Avenue?

Yeah.

622 Park Avenue.

Right behind the 7-Eleven.

In that, that big old parking lot.

And so there's a festival coming up here.

And how many did your piece mention, Patrick?

How many years?

That's festival.

No, we didn't mention that in the in the, in the, piece.

But there will be year to year two for the second one.

Yeah.

Second year.

So for people who know nothing about this festival Tiki coming up, it's in August.

When to win and what's going on?

August 25th to 31st.

There are at least ten Rochester or bars or restaurants, that will be involved.

We we set up a system last year with kind of like a postcard.

So if you have these blank spots in your postcard, you bring it on.

And every bar, each bar has their own unique stamp.

And they are slinging tiki drinks all week.

The, you know, kind of depth of their involvement is up to them.

But we spent quite a while, I think, noodling over who to ask.

Right.

Because Rochester is, is blessed with a lot of, very passionate folks.

And a lot of them are willing to take a deep dive for a week and, and throw themselves out in.

So, yeah, you can get a tiki drink at each of those spots.

And then you turn in your postcard for a kind of, like, a little prize.

Last year we did custom tiki mugs.

They have, like, a, Tiki Week printed beer koozie and things like that inside of them.

But then it's capstone on that Sunday, the 31st, with a swizzle competition, that is moved by Mr. Patrick Tuttle.

He is the proprietor at Ziggy's.

Definitely big.

Good, good tiki head.

He is.

I'm seeing the competition last year we hosted at Marge's.

I believe that is also the plan this year.

So kind of combining the the beach bar and the tiki bar, as much as we will advocate and and argue that those are two different things.

Marge's is definitely a part of Tiki Week again.

Where can you get the full schedule, learn more.

I would follow the Instagram.

Rochester Tiki Week is the full handle.

That will definitely have the most up to date things.

Do you guys have to work all week?

You get to go and experience any of this stuff.

We'll see if we get to sneak away here and there, but yeah, probably be bogged down.

Most of it.

A lot of work.

Yeah, a lot of work.

Easy sailor will be in full swing by that point.

Yeah.

For sure.

That's two months away.

Oh yeah.

It's not two weeks away.

That's that that'll, that'll definitely be up.

And Patrick, as we get ready to wrap here Patrick Hoskins piece in city is what inspired this conversation.

And I think it's been a good one.

I'm like, I think we we need to be able to kind of talk about things that make you a little uncomfortable and make sure we understand why and make sure we understand, as much as we can about history, and then talk about ways to not just not for the purpose of shutting something down or foreclosing on something, but to say, how do we make sure that we do feel good about what we're going to be doing here?

How do we have that conversation and not always need to do that?

No, I, I completely agree, and I think that there's a certain amount of like appreciation for your own enjoyment.

It's a weird way to put it.

But like, the more you know about a thing, more you know about Tiki, more knowledge you can get.

I feel like the more you can kind of enjoy it.

And like, I guess just like asking yourself a question of, just interrogating a little bit of like, oh, yeah, where does this drink I'm drinking?

Come from?

Is there a story behind this?

You know, and that's a great muscle to flex.

The more you do it, I think the more, it can serve you well.

And it kind of leads you down different paths.

Much like how we were talking about how Tiki has gone in so many different paths.

I know that there was a mention of, what a five foot octopus that got driven up all the way here from Texas to to be at home at easy sailor.

Like, that's not necessarily something I would have thought of in a tiki bar.

Five foot octopus.

Well, not a real octopus, but, some decor, right?

Yeah, yeah, for the bar.

There you go.

Yeah, it's, I don't know.

I think that it is important for us to be responsible stewards of of defining that line for the people that come in right.

Like, this isn't authentic, but you should go learn what is, you know, here is the next resource.

That thing over there in the corner, you know, that was made by this guy this one time.

And, you know, if we're lucky enough, he's a master of his craft.

Like.

That's awesome.

And it's important to have the conversation every day.

So great work.

I just want to say.

Oh, thanks.

And, for people who are wondering about, like, the whole idea of a revival are you going to be the, only tiki bar?

I mean, are there are other tiki bars in town?

There are a great many of tiki cocktails available throughout Rochester.

I think the who's your competition and where do you hope people don't go to?

I think right now the program at Leonard's is fantastic.

They're doing some really good, like meeting the escapism side on the drinks menu.

I think the purpose of the opening easy was, to me, the missing element of a tiki bar is this transportive bit.

Right?

You wander in, usually through some kind of hallway or vestibule or something that, like, removes your perception of where you were and into an environment that is rich with layers on, layers of things to look at and smell.

And the humidity's different.

And there's a lot of, you know, that transportation physically that needs to happen.

And Rochester right now, it doesn't have another bar to do that with.

Well, they don't have one either.

You guys aren't open yet, but but you will be located where again, 622 Park Avenue.

It's called, Easy sailor.

And Rochester Tiki week is coming up at the end of August.

Find the Instagram there if you want to get the full schedule there.

Our thanks to Canal Ballard earlier this hour, an American food historian and of course Patrick Hosking.

Thank you.

It's always nice to share my with you.

Thank you.

So that was fun.

Big fan of the mocktails, Patrick Hosking definitely Dan Herzog, Kelly MacDonald, thank you for sharing time.

Good luck to you.

Thank you, thank you.

Have a great summer and thanks for from the whole crew here at connections.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for watching.

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I've been off for a week.

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